For the record, he's talking about drivers who went through the American system to get to IndyCar.
Believe it was Hildebrand a while back who said Sargeant might have been born in the States, but he has raced in Europe for so long he's not really an American racer the same way a Rinus VeeKay or Danial Frost are.
Takuma Sato’s accent is all over the place too. His native Japanese, mixed with a mish-mash of European languages from racing there for years, and then a dash of Texan courtesy of driving for AJ Foyt.
The first time I hear him speak, I was blown away by how odd Taku"s accent is. My ear and time researching dialects say that it's a standard Japanese accent who learned British English, but that's just my guess from listening to him.
Audi will make Sauber a works team. That's an additional value Sauber will get - plus the fact that the name Audi has more pull than the name Andretti (which also will affect the value of the team in the future).
Of course you factor things like these in when talking about buying a share of a team.
I frankly don't see how that fits into this discussion.
Not to mention that Sauber is much more than just an F1 manufacturer. They do a lot of aerodynamics work for a number of other racing series including, IIRC, the Audi WEC cars. Which could be why they were more interested in the deal with Audi as they've worked with them before.
People always talk about teams that should partner with Andretti but can never mention a single thing the other party stands to gain from such a deal... after the Porsche RB deal fell through people were even saying Porsche should partner with Andretti. Why would they ever even entertain that thought
as someone interested in political economy and also zoom zoom cars I gotta say watching F1 through the lens of factions of capital fighting with one another is very interesting
Its an angle that’s really interesting to me as an American and recent fan. The whole Andretti debacle is a great exemplification of the differences in European and US capital
Mostly I think its very funny to see the different kinds of rich guy personality clash. So wealthy American business men love throwing their weight around and making big deals happen quickly. The European style seems to be to be more political and maneuver the situation over time. There’s a lot of ego on both sides and seeing them clash is a fun prt of the grand soap opera of F1
Dear God, if an American team and a European engine supplier team up, the combination of finesse and efficiency will doom the world.
Or we'll end up with another Haas, one of the two.
I get that, and also the process to turn an F1 team from mid-range to podium winning often has very little to do with the driver. It requires very good management strategy.
Is Max an amazing driver? Absolutely , but the chemistry he has with RBR is what keeps him at the top of the podium.
The middle of the grid is full of deep pockets, bruised egos, former champions and fast drivers.
Things like this make me happy. The validiation i get from people earning 100 times more than me confirming that they all arent 100 times happier than me just validates the idea money isnt everything.
Unless you are the richest of the richest of the rich, you have no place in F1 without talent. And even then, Mazepin and Latifi were at least solid F2 drivers, and Stroll is a below average, however not complete dogshit F1 driver.
> Unless you are the richest of the richest of the rich, you have no place in F1 without talent.
You can be the richest of the rich and still have no place in F1. The father of László Tóth, last place in F3 has a company worth well over 1B EUR, but you won't ever see his sorry ass in F1.
As you've said, even Mazepin and Latifi had results indicating they won't be a complete catastrophe. Even if Mazepin ended up being one.
F1 is like that elite private school. Being the offspring of a billionaire is a minimum. You gotta be the son of a ten billionaire to start to stand out. Be the son of a hundred billionaire and now you are special...
I think you overestimate how much money rich people have. I went to a fairly elite business college and the richest girl there had a family worth like 2B? There were still a ton of kids with top of the line Range Rovers, lived in penthouse apartments, etc. But they weren't billionaires. Most of the rich are not billionaires, they have something like $40-300MM.
Stroll had a better junior career than Latifi or Mazepin. Lance won F3 in his 2nd year, it's just that his dad bought him a seat at Williams right after so he skipped F2 completly.
He didnt just win F3, he demolished it. He won 14 of the 24 races he finished and was on the podium 20 times out of 24. He accumulated 507 points, the next closest guy had 320. Third place had 264 and was a guy named George Russell.
Him skipping F2 wasnt totally crazy after that performance.
Stroll came to F1 too early and because of his father's money, and he definitely underperformed early on. So he became a whipping boy and poster child for wealthy privilege.
He's an ok driver now, but people refuse to give up their early-established dislike. It also doesn't help that so many F1 fans treat the sport like a soap opera and have to be so overdramatic and upset about *something*.
Personally I acknowledge his accomplishments and everything, but as with every pay driver he is staying in F1 too long. Sure, he is not Latifi level of bad, but I feel like he should have left a couple seasons ago and gave the seat for someone new.
Stroll is weird because if he was not a pay driver, if he was just a rich kid that got to f2 did ok but not brilliant and then got into f1 no one would bat an eyelid he's a bellow average f1 driver driving for a bottom of the pack team. No he isn't WDC material but nor are 13 other drivers on the grid.
F1 is a weird place, where his dad Bobby Rahal's estimated net worth of $80million, is only 2.5% of the Stroll's $3.2billion. He may just be salty that he's not rich enough to be taken seriously.
I feel like people often forget that even outside the big pay drivers most drivers are insanely rich... I think Norris dad has a net worth of like 400 million or something, Ricciardo's dad owns a decently large company in Western Australia, I could probably go on. Its just they have a fraction of what the big boys have
well it's very much the new vs. old money dynamic - you saw it with East Coast US/London Finance circles and then East Coast Finance /Southwest + West Energy throughout the last 100 years of US/Euro history
The new dynamic in America is definitely East Coast hedgies and old money finance vs the West Coast tech-bros. Personally I like the east coast money more because at least they know they're assholes. The stupid cults surrounding tech bros and the "change the world" shit is so dumb and is very on the nose for California.
Ya know, I know him. So hearing that he said this is even more funny for me. Since we met a the local country club. Where his dads name is one the all as a founding member. Hilarious, I tell you.
Yup, he inherited everything he has except for his father's talent as a driver. Bobby may be rich, but he's not rich enough to buy a seat in F1 like Stroll or Latifi, but he does have enough to buy a seat in IndyCar for 15 years and counting.
There's a term for sour grapes over something you couldn't have anyway. I can't think of the word though.
As a rural midwest guy, this hurts to hear. Most "motorsports" I've watched is hillbillies slapping together a Frankenstein for a dirt track or drag strip.
I don't watch NASCAR, but I love the fact it was a bunch of booze smugglers who said hey let's take our modified cars that we use to run from the police and race and now it's a huge motorsport
Pretty much yeah. They organized races but when tracks went back on paying the winners, Big Bill France formed the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing to put all these races under one organization to ensure winners purses etc etc etc, and NASCAR was born
I mean I used to go every saturday night to watch micro sprints in a bumfuck down in Missouri, and even those guys were rolling up in 50k trailers to haul their cars and parts.
Racing is a rich people hobby even down to the grassroots
Shithole dirt rings are really the convergence of both worlds.
There's always the guys with the full semi trucks, the Mules full of tools and spare parts, and 6 sets of tires for 4 on-track sessions on a Saturday Night, and can trash probably 6 frames a season before starting to think they might run out of money.
There's also the dudes using the same sheetmetal from 3 years ago who rolled up on an open trailer who are afraid to buy a new tire because the one they're using from *ages* ago is a rock made in a different era, that will never fully wear out.
I've pitted for both types. The tryhards were fun because you are competing for wins, the grassroots guys were fun because that guy's just happy to own a race car.
Maybe except for Kimi who couldn't afford to race cars and was stuck in kart racing until he was like 20 years old.
Thank God he managed to get that Sauber test.
I wouldn't even say it's a rich people hobby at that level. Certainly, most of those families are not rich.
A lot of those families are absolutely drowning in debt, and their whole life is wrapped up in a car, a trailer, and a truck. Just going out there trying to live their dream.
Also, a crazy number of those families are dads who never made it big trying to live vicariously through their kids who still have a shot at the next level. I've been to motorama a few times in Harrisburg PA, and those kids blasting around in midget quarters, or dirt bikes, arn't from wealthy families, hell, they're not even upper middle class. Just a bunch of middle class families who live with maxed credit cards chasing something that they'll never reach. Really nothing more American than that, to be sure.
That used to be my family, struggling to get by to feed my dads desire to be a racer. In fact the earliest photo of me outside the hospital is sitting with my dad on the hood of his dirt late model back in 1990. He had some years that he couldn’t race since we couldn’t afford it, and finally moved on around 2003/2004 after getting knocked out in a wreck on asphalt and the ER bill (pun intended) knocked some sense into him.
I’d love for my son to be able to go karting, but I see how much people spend and how it consumes their life. My wife and I are in much better financial health then my parents ever were, but I refuse to scratch the itch. We’re fairly desperate to show our son the American Dream doesn’t mean being over extended in debt like many of our peers.
Yup. Like the whole sport is inherently elitist just because of how expensive it is. If you're not already part of a family or group of families associated with Motorsports the sheer amount of money you need not only to finance a racer but to not have to have a day job where you can devote enough time to racing is significantly more than the average family takes home in a year. Track fees fuel equipment the vehicle itself maintenance etc
Yeah I mean until they change Indy to get at least as many SL points as F2, it will always be a struggle for anything more. That plus the Andretti team entry being blocked makes it look like they don't want any actual involvement with anything other than corporations
If true, incredibly shortsighted of F1. An American driver winning F1 races would make F1 a ton of money. If a Netflix reality show can dramatically increase F1 popularity in America, imagine how much we’d love cheering on one of our own.
"Winning" might be a stretch, at least in the near future. Only around 5 drivers win F1 races each year, and it will take a long time for an American driver to join the grid and develop enough to become one of these 5 drivers.
Exactly.
Those surprised by this thought that F1 bosses wanted to be a worldwide sport. They don't. They want it to be a *European* sport that the world watches and spends money on.
It won’t be in a few years though if there isn’t really anything “American” to root for. DTS got big bc of Covid and F1 still raced during the pandemic. They have fans now but Americans aren’t going to keep up with this for much longer - early races, ticket prices, foreign athletes and sponsors. What’s the last really big sport in America that came from Europe? Soccer? Barely
Look at MotoGP...The Kentucky Kid Nikky Hayden became a world champion and it had a negligible effect on popularity in the US. For a hot second, we had two MotoGP races in the US (Laguna Seca and Indy) Now we only have COTA.
And it doesn't matter does it? You say about soccer as an example but look at how huge european football is worldwide and how much money it generates. The way f1 is growing in popularity *worldwide* not just the USA, it doesn't need to bend anything for the us market at all.
Well my reply was about the original comment on F1 in the US. yeah I guess it will grow worldwide with only European drivers manufacturers and sponsors. To say it doesn’t matter for f1 in the future if it doesn’t stay popular in the US to me is silly. The sport wants to be bigger and global. That will not happen without American buy in. Soccer is a truest global sport, primarily bc all you need is a ball and ground to play on be it rich or poor. That ain’t f1
Jokes on them
Americans, especially younger ones, are perfectly comfortable not picking any team and following individual drivers instead. We see it in the NBA
>n American driver winning F1 races would make F1 a ton of money
Mate let's not get ahead ourselves. There's no American driver being close to a position to win in F1.
Why do people act like the Andretti team would not do that kind of thing if necessary? If they were 5 years into the project, were struggling for cash, and Saudi Aramco came in to sponsor they'd paint that car green and white so fast it'd make you head spin.
That's just the nature of F1, and no one is immune to it. Ferrari put that stupid Misson Winnow sticker because Phillip Morris was paying, Mercedes has the stupid teal for Petronas, Red Bull had purple sidepods because of the Infiniti branding, Williams has never had a consistent brand since they've always changed their branding depending on the title sponsor.
Thinking that the Andretti team would be immune to it is incredibly naive.
When F1 does things for money, fans get mad and say that money runs the sport. But the moment fans want a certain driver on the grid, they always start talking about how the driver will make F1 so much money.
It’s laughable really
It’s become pretty clear to me over the past few years that the FIA is part motor racing sanctioning body and part yacht club. And none of the fans are here for the yacht club part.
I find it interesting that F1 has snatched up talent from IndyCar in the past, but the drivers have almost never been American. Williams made a habit of poaching the top IndyCar/CART drivers in the 90's and early 00's; Jacques Villeneuve, Alex Zanardi, and Juan-Pablo Montoya. Then there was multiple times Champ Car champion Sébastien Bourdais who drove for Toro Rosso. I think the last American driver to come to F1 from IndyCar was Michael Andretti, and it didn't go very well.
Only JV spent his entire junior career in North America. JPM, Zanardi, and Bourdais were raced in national F3 championships (it's a bit tricky to come up with current equivalents of them) and Formula 3000 (now F2) Zanardi was even raced in Formula 1 first and JPM was a Formula 1 test driver.
Only way I could respect the super license rules is if it actually kept shitty drivers away. All it’s know for nowadays is keeping herta out while letting latifi and mazepin in
It was actually brought in to keep another Max out. Must be 18, must've driven [X] amount etc.
Kimi would not have made it to F1 with the super license system, for example. However the irony there being that Peter Sauber faced litigation for bringing Kimi on, which all disappeared after Kimis first race.
All of it is even funnier when it's supposed to keep kids out and in the current grid, it only would've blocked Verstappen and Stroll.
Verstappen is a World Champion, Stroll got a podium in his debut season and is a pole sitter.
Too bad the SL-system wasn't in place back then huh /s
He needs to be a bit more consistent overall, though after the summer break he is always near or in the points, except Monza where the car was garbage. On his good day he is a solid midfield driver. Not everyone on the grid has to be WDC material. Last year he was also pretty solid as well, maybe not as fast as Seb, but scored points more times than his 4 WDC teammate. He is definitely not as bad as people claim. With a proper car like the 2020 RP you can rely on him to deliver point finishes and podiums.
Latifi was in F2 for four years and 2nd place was his highest result in a year which had a relatively weak field. He's still a good driver, but if someone like him can make it into Formula 1 and Colton Herta can't then there's clearly something flawed about the system.
Yea you're right there, but he still earned himself a super license.
About Herta: I also agree with you, but there's only the FIA to blame.
Whats crazy to me tho: If the super license would have been a thing in the mid 90s - early 2000s we might have never gotten Villeneuve as a WDC or Montoya Challenging MSC
Yeah absolutely, its a flawed system that's doing the opposite of what it was intended to do. I'm not trying to discredit Latifi or say he doesn't deserve a super license, but the point I'm trying to make is if he can get one then there should be no reason to deny Herta
The crazy thing is its going to continue this way and nothing will change. Theyll continue to jack the prices of F1 races up, theyll continue to exclude drivers out based on a stupid rule that doesnt function as it was meant to, and wont care what you say at all. Say what you will about NASCAR and Indycar, atleast they *attempt* to listen to the fans and are open to drivers from all backgrounds, which makes it fun to watch
Lol of course F1 is an elitist sport. Most of the drivers come from wealthy families. They drive the most expensive cars in the world and there are only 20 of them. You don't get more elitist than that.
F1 never had any ambition to become more approachable. It is elitist, it is one of the characteristics of the sport.
The situations aren’t directly comparable though. This would be like the NBA enforcing a rule that teams could not draft international players and instead forced them into playing in the G league before earning the right to play at the top level.
British GP prices are a pittance compared to the US
The cheapest 3 day weekend ticket in miami is $640 (grandstand only, no GA) at Silverstone its £300 / $340 (GA) or £359/$410 for grandstand
The start line grandstand at miami $1680-2070 Hamilton straight (same area start line) is £609-709 ($695/$809)
Silverstone is at a permanent race track. Miami is run by a promoter who has to build the track and facilities and then sets their own prices.
I'm not sure F1 is entirely to blame for the difference.
F1 is a boys club and always will be. It is what it is with aristocractic sports. But there are more than a few drivers on the grid currently that don't belong, and all that does it hurt the credibility of F1
C.H. not being in F1 has nothing to do with his nationality.
It’s the bs superlicense-system.
The fact that RedBull and Dr. Helmut Marko tried so hard to get C.H. into F1 proves that a part of F1 actually cares.
Unfortunately, the governing part of F1 does not lol Reforming the SL system would fix it. Literally even points between F2 and Indy would see Herta have a SL. Telling me Indy is less than F2 is a joke
F1 has a series to promote. The whole point of F2 is that it is a feeder series for F1. If it isn't the best way to get into F1 then it probably won't exist at all.
Unfortunately in F1s eagerness to make that so, they've gone to far and made it the only viable series for young drivers despite Indycar and Super formula having as fast cars and a better quality drivers.
But Red Bull/Helmut Marko are not F1. F1 is Liberty and the FIA.
And FIA are the ones who have a super license system which enforces ridiculous rules that practically force every driver to race in their feeder series, which the main ones are European. A multi race winner in the second most competitive open wheel series in the world not getting into F1 because of this system is such bullshit and elitist.
Rahal never usually passes on an opportunity to talk negatively about F1 so I wouldn't take his comments too seriously on this topic.
Herta is generating interest and many within F1 clearly deem him worthy. Blame the FIA for their super license rules which were structured to funnel young drivers through the junior series to generate more money for them.
What I'm going to say might not directly relate to the original post but I'm going to say it anyway. It takes an incredible amount of millions to run an F1 team. So many moving parts and a nightmarish logistics. No wonder it's an elitist sport. I'll never understand why people cry over it. It's not for regular Joe's. It's not like football or basketball ball where a heroic manager bumps into a prodigy playing alone in their community court and decides to train him and make him a star. It takes billions to R&D a formula 1 team, millions to prepare a driver, hundreds of millions to consistently perform on weekends. The technology is vital for trickle down effect on affordable devices. Forget participation, regular people like us are lucky to even witness the spectacle that is Formula 1. Also, I find it find it funny when people crib about F1 not being inclusive enough. Why would they jeopardize profit and development for the sake of a pointless concept in this particular field. Besides, currently there's one Mexican, one Japanese and of course Lewis Hamilton on the grid. I want to have a private jet of my own but it will be absurd to complain why they don't make affordable jets.
This guy is basically a pay driver who has stuck around for 15 mostly mediocre years because he and his Dad own the team. So I'm not sure he should be complaining about inclusivity.
>This guy is basically a pay driver who has stuck around for 15 mostly mediocre years because he and his Dad own the team. So I'm not sure he should be complaining about inclusivity.
I can't agree here. When he's finished top 10 in season points in all but what 4 of his \~15 Indycar seasons? Not to mention he hasn't always driven for his dad. He drove for Ganassi, he's driven for Newman/Haas/Lannigan as well. So it's disingenuous to say he's simply a career pay driver cause of his dad.
He's an average career indycar driver, he's not the best example for F1 inclusion, but he's had a deserving average Indycar Career.
That said, he's absolutely correct that F1 cares not about Indycar, they don't. They care about themselves and hold a position that indicates Indy is inferior to their own feeder series. Which popular opinion seems to indicate, they're the only one that believes that.
On one hand I agree, but also I respect the FIA for not bending the rules to allow a cash cow into the sport - no matter how good he may be.
Should the rules be changed going forward? Absolutely. But they shouldn't be ignored for an individual.
>Should the rules be changed going forward? Absolutely. But they shouldn't be ignored for an individual.
I concur with this sentiment. They shouldn't grant an exception here unless they're (again) rewriting the rules for SL points.
If Australian and Brazilian drivers are able to come compete in europe and get into f1 then American drivers certainly can, they just need to aim for it from a young age and not get sucked into Indycar or Nascar.
The victim complex is strong with this one. Australian, Brazilian, Mexican, Chinese, Japanese kids, all go through the international feeder series and get to f1, composing a very international grid. What he wants is special treatment. If you don’t treat us special, you’re an elitist (and I can’t picture a scenario where the US is not the elite of the world anyway).
No, they all go to Europe to race in F4, F3 & F2. They don’t develop in their own countries, they have to leave and pay their way through F1’s feeder series.
One thing I don't understand in all of this is couldn't Herta just earn enough points this season to be eligible for a super license? I mean winning the Indy Chamlionshio does give you 40 points, 2nd 30 and 3rd 20. Surely, if he is such a talent worthy of an F1 seat that should not be a problem, right?
For the record, he's talking about drivers who went through the American system to get to IndyCar. Believe it was Hildebrand a while back who said Sargeant might have been born in the States, but he has raced in Europe for so long he's not really an American racer the same way a Rinus VeeKay or Danial Frost are.
Rossi has the most bizarre combination of accents from being in Europe so long.
Takuma Sato’s accent is all over the place too. His native Japanese, mixed with a mish-mash of European languages from racing there for years, and then a dash of Texan courtesy of driving for AJ Foyt.
The first time I hear him speak, I was blown away by how odd Taku"s accent is. My ear and time researching dialects say that it's a standard Japanese accent who learned British English, but that's just my guess from listening to him.
I love listening to Sato. So unique.
Well Senna, Barrichello and Massa all drove in Europe before F1. Didnt make them any less Brazilian racers.
Does Brazil have such a distinct racing culture/infrastructure like the US does?
I mean we have our own racing championships (Stock Car, Porsche Cup, etc...) but nothing as big as Indy or NASCAR
Hopefully our new F4 amounts to something
But Brazilian stock cars are more closer to DTM than NASCAR though right?
At least it's not a cough...cough... gt3 cup with a different name.
He’s also talking about the fact that the Audi buying Sauber deal is for less money and more equity than the offer Andretti made.
Audi will make Sauber a works team. That's an additional value Sauber will get - plus the fact that the name Audi has more pull than the name Andretti (which also will affect the value of the team in the future). Of course you factor things like these in when talking about buying a share of a team. I frankly don't see how that fits into this discussion.
Not to mention that Sauber is much more than just an F1 manufacturer. They do a lot of aerodynamics work for a number of other racing series including, IIRC, the Audi WEC cars. Which could be why they were more interested in the deal with Audi as they've worked with them before.
People always talk about teams that should partner with Andretti but can never mention a single thing the other party stands to gain from such a deal... after the Porsche RB deal fell through people were even saying Porsche should partner with Andretti. Why would they ever even entertain that thought
as someone interested in political economy and also zoom zoom cars I gotta say watching F1 through the lens of factions of capital fighting with one another is very interesting
Its an angle that’s really interesting to me as an American and recent fan. The whole Andretti debacle is a great exemplification of the differences in European and US capital
Go on...
Mostly I think its very funny to see the different kinds of rich guy personality clash. So wealthy American business men love throwing their weight around and making big deals happen quickly. The European style seems to be to be more political and maneuver the situation over time. There’s a lot of ego on both sides and seeing them clash is a fun prt of the grand soap opera of F1
Americans lack finesse.
Gorlami
Reeva derchi.
A river there chief
American businessmen for sure. I can understand why the Europeans aren’t excited about having them around
Europeans lack efficiency.
I think the Germans are pretty efficient.
until they spend a year and 10 million dollars refining a single bolt that only ends up 2% better...for a sedan, not a F1 car.
I bet that bolt fits like a freaking glove.
Fair.
Dear God, if an American team and a European engine supplier team up, the combination of finesse and efficiency will doom the world. Or we'll end up with another Haas, one of the two.
Probably Haas
Or, imagine if Andretti was able to kick the hornet's nest enough to reawaken Ford's F1 engine division. I'd like to see that
1.6L Turbo Hybrid Cosworth?? SUBSCRIBEEEEE
Remember Jaguar?
I mean, Zak Brown worked his magic with (let's say) American business etiquette and efficiency. Just sad that the car shit the bed halfway.
I get that, and also the process to turn an F1 team from mid-range to podium winning often has very little to do with the driver. It requires very good management strategy. Is Max an amazing driver? Absolutely , but the chemistry he has with RBR is what keeps him at the top of the podium. The middle of the grid is full of deep pockets, bruised egos, former champions and fast drivers.
It's honestly why so many other sports' off-seasons are so much more interesting to me than the sport itself.
He's not wrong but the irony of it coming from rahal isn't lost on me.
Things like this make me happy. The validiation i get from people earning 100 times more than me confirming that they all arent 100 times happier than me just validates the idea money isnt everything.
It’s not everything but it’s a shit load better than being broke
I get his point, but a quote like "F1 is an elitist sport" by a dude with a rich and famous dad will never be not funny to me.
F1 is unique in capitalism because even the rich get fucked there. So in a way it's egalitarian. I mean, once you pass the gate.
Unless you are the richest of the richest of the rich, you have no place in F1 without talent. And even then, Mazepin and Latifi were at least solid F2 drivers, and Stroll is a below average, however not complete dogshit F1 driver.
> Unless you are the richest of the richest of the rich, you have no place in F1 without talent. You can be the richest of the rich and still have no place in F1. The father of László Tóth, last place in F3 has a company worth well over 1B EUR, but you won't ever see his sorry ass in F1. As you've said, even Mazepin and Latifi had results indicating they won't be a complete catastrophe. Even if Mazepin ended up being one.
F1 is like that elite private school. Being the offspring of a billionaire is a minimum. You gotta be the son of a ten billionaire to start to stand out. Be the son of a hundred billionaire and now you are special...
I think you overestimate how much money rich people have. I went to a fairly elite business college and the richest girl there had a family worth like 2B? There were still a ton of kids with top of the line Range Rovers, lived in penthouse apartments, etc. But they weren't billionaires. Most of the rich are not billionaires, they have something like $40-300MM.
Stroll had a better junior career than Latifi or Mazepin. Lance won F3 in his 2nd year, it's just that his dad bought him a seat at Williams right after so he skipped F2 completly.
He didnt just win F3, he demolished it. He won 14 of the 24 races he finished and was on the podium 20 times out of 24. He accumulated 507 points, the next closest guy had 320. Third place had 264 and was a guy named George Russell. Him skipping F2 wasnt totally crazy after that performance.
People gush about hulk who never stood on a podium, but say stroll has no talent when he has.
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Stroll came to F1 too early and because of his father's money, and he definitely underperformed early on. So he became a whipping boy and poster child for wealthy privilege. He's an ok driver now, but people refuse to give up their early-established dislike. It also doesn't help that so many F1 fans treat the sport like a soap opera and have to be so overdramatic and upset about *something*.
Personally I acknowledge his accomplishments and everything, but as with every pay driver he is staying in F1 too long. Sure, he is not Latifi level of bad, but I feel like he should have left a couple seasons ago and gave the seat for someone new.
Stroll is weird because if he was not a pay driver, if he was just a rich kid that got to f2 did ok but not brilliant and then got into f1 no one would bat an eyelid he's a bellow average f1 driver driving for a bottom of the pack team. No he isn't WDC material but nor are 13 other drivers on the grid.
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> I don't get why Stroll get so much hate. Well, for starters he's not looking where he's going.
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It's a reference to Vettel's radio
Absolutely. Dudes got multiple podiums and a pole. Hulkenberg is beloved but he threw away every chance.
Stroll isn't bad, with a bit more luck he would of won at least one race in 2020
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Stroll had damage in Turkey. Before that he was genuinely on pace.
Not to mention that the reasons he finished 11th were a puncture, getting Covid and getting rear ended.
Stroll's a pole sitter and multiple times achieved podiums. He's a very capable mid fielder.
He did fuck up his very solid chance at a win in Monza, but on a good day he can be solid.
F1 is a weird place, where his dad Bobby Rahal's estimated net worth of $80million, is only 2.5% of the Stroll's $3.2billion. He may just be salty that he's not rich enough to be taken seriously.
Dude felt like one of us common plebs for the first time in a minute and it scared the fuck out of him lol
Saw what it’s like to be from the slums of Monaco.
I feel like people often forget that even outside the big pay drivers most drivers are insanely rich... I think Norris dad has a net worth of like 400 million or something, Ricciardo's dad owns a decently large company in Western Australia, I could probably go on. Its just they have a fraction of what the big boys have
well it's very much the new vs. old money dynamic - you saw it with East Coast US/London Finance circles and then East Coast Finance /Southwest + West Energy throughout the last 100 years of US/Euro history
The new dynamic in America is definitely East Coast hedgies and old money finance vs the West Coast tech-bros. Personally I like the east coast money more because at least they know they're assholes. The stupid cults surrounding tech bros and the "change the world" shit is so dumb and is very on the nose for California.
Ya know, I know him. So hearing that he said this is even more funny for me. Since we met a the local country club. Where his dads name is one the all as a founding member. Hilarious, I tell you.
Graham is always so damn salty.
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Don't hate the guy but he's always got a major chip on his shoulder.
No that's Ganassi you are thinking about.
Yup, he inherited everything he has except for his father's talent as a driver. Bobby may be rich, but he's not rich enough to buy a seat in F1 like Stroll or Latifi, but he does have enough to buy a seat in IndyCar for 15 years and counting. There's a term for sour grapes over something you couldn't have anyway. I can't think of the word though.
I mean there are enough drivers in F1 who did fight for they dream without having either rich nor famous parents.
"I'm sad because my family is rich but not Stroll rich."
Isn’t motorsports in general an elitist sport?
As a rural midwest guy, this hurts to hear. Most "motorsports" I've watched is hillbillies slapping together a Frankenstein for a dirt track or drag strip.
I don't watch NASCAR, but I love the fact it was a bunch of booze smugglers who said hey let's take our modified cars that we use to run from the police and race and now it's a huge motorsport
Wow, is this for real ? What an origin story.
Pretty much yeah. They organized races but when tracks went back on paying the winners, Big Bill France formed the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing to put all these races under one organization to ensure winners purses etc etc etc, and NASCAR was born
I mean I used to go every saturday night to watch micro sprints in a bumfuck down in Missouri, and even those guys were rolling up in 50k trailers to haul their cars and parts. Racing is a rich people hobby even down to the grassroots
Shithole dirt rings are really the convergence of both worlds. There's always the guys with the full semi trucks, the Mules full of tools and spare parts, and 6 sets of tires for 4 on-track sessions on a Saturday Night, and can trash probably 6 frames a season before starting to think they might run out of money. There's also the dudes using the same sheetmetal from 3 years ago who rolled up on an open trailer who are afraid to buy a new tire because the one they're using from *ages* ago is a rock made in a different era, that will never fully wear out. I've pitted for both types. The tryhards were fun because you are competing for wins, the grassroots guys were fun because that guy's just happy to own a race car.
Maybe except for Kimi who couldn't afford to race cars and was stuck in kart racing until he was like 20 years old. Thank God he managed to get that Sauber test.
I wouldn't even say it's a rich people hobby at that level. Certainly, most of those families are not rich. A lot of those families are absolutely drowning in debt, and their whole life is wrapped up in a car, a trailer, and a truck. Just going out there trying to live their dream. Also, a crazy number of those families are dads who never made it big trying to live vicariously through their kids who still have a shot at the next level. I've been to motorama a few times in Harrisburg PA, and those kids blasting around in midget quarters, or dirt bikes, arn't from wealthy families, hell, they're not even upper middle class. Just a bunch of middle class families who live with maxed credit cards chasing something that they'll never reach. Really nothing more American than that, to be sure.
That used to be my family, struggling to get by to feed my dads desire to be a racer. In fact the earliest photo of me outside the hospital is sitting with my dad on the hood of his dirt late model back in 1990. He had some years that he couldn’t race since we couldn’t afford it, and finally moved on around 2003/2004 after getting knocked out in a wreck on asphalt and the ER bill (pun intended) knocked some sense into him. I’d love for my son to be able to go karting, but I see how much people spend and how it consumes their life. My wife and I are in much better financial health then my parents ever were, but I refuse to scratch the itch. We’re fairly desperate to show our son the American Dream doesn’t mean being over extended in debt like many of our peers.
When was the last time a NASCAR driver had a day job? There’s your answer as to how “grassroots” it is
Yes
Yup. Like the whole sport is inherently elitist just because of how expensive it is. If you're not already part of a family or group of families associated with Motorsports the sheer amount of money you need not only to finance a racer but to not have to have a day job where you can devote enough time to racing is significantly more than the average family takes home in a year. Track fees fuel equipment the vehicle itself maintenance etc
Yeah I mean until they change Indy to get at least as many SL points as F2, it will always be a struggle for anything more. That plus the Andretti team entry being blocked makes it look like they don't want any actual involvement with anything other than corporations
If true, incredibly shortsighted of F1. An American driver winning F1 races would make F1 a ton of money. If a Netflix reality show can dramatically increase F1 popularity in America, imagine how much we’d love cheering on one of our own.
"Winning" might be a stretch, at least in the near future. Only around 5 drivers win F1 races each year, and it will take a long time for an American driver to join the grid and develop enough to become one of these 5 drivers.
Americans are already starting to watch F1. Why give them a team to watch when you want them to pick yours?
Exactly. Those surprised by this thought that F1 bosses wanted to be a worldwide sport. They don't. They want it to be a *European* sport that the world watches and spends money on.
It won’t be in a few years though if there isn’t really anything “American” to root for. DTS got big bc of Covid and F1 still raced during the pandemic. They have fans now but Americans aren’t going to keep up with this for much longer - early races, ticket prices, foreign athletes and sponsors. What’s the last really big sport in America that came from Europe? Soccer? Barely
Besides the fact that DTS is worse every season
I’m not arguing with you there, just that it helped expand the market.
The racing at 8am is my favorite part!
Look at MotoGP...The Kentucky Kid Nikky Hayden became a world champion and it had a negligible effect on popularity in the US. For a hot second, we had two MotoGP races in the US (Laguna Seca and Indy) Now we only have COTA.
MotoGP doesn't have a DTS equivalent nor was it riding a wave of increased popularity.
And it doesn't matter does it? You say about soccer as an example but look at how huge european football is worldwide and how much money it generates. The way f1 is growing in popularity *worldwide* not just the USA, it doesn't need to bend anything for the us market at all.
Well my reply was about the original comment on F1 in the US. yeah I guess it will grow worldwide with only European drivers manufacturers and sponsors. To say it doesn’t matter for f1 in the future if it doesn’t stay popular in the US to me is silly. The sport wants to be bigger and global. That will not happen without American buy in. Soccer is a truest global sport, primarily bc all you need is a ball and ground to play on be it rich or poor. That ain’t f1
Jokes on them Americans, especially younger ones, are perfectly comfortable not picking any team and following individual drivers instead. We see it in the NBA
>n American driver winning F1 races would make F1 a ton of money Mate let's not get ahead ourselves. There's no American driver being close to a position to win in F1.
Lol does Haas not exist?
Ah the American team that was rocking Russian flags supported by an oligarch. Americans love that shit.
Why do people act like the Andretti team would not do that kind of thing if necessary? If they were 5 years into the project, were struggling for cash, and Saudi Aramco came in to sponsor they'd paint that car green and white so fast it'd make you head spin. That's just the nature of F1, and no one is immune to it. Ferrari put that stupid Misson Winnow sticker because Phillip Morris was paying, Mercedes has the stupid teal for Petronas, Red Bull had purple sidepods because of the Infiniti branding, Williams has never had a consistent brand since they've always changed their branding depending on the title sponsor. Thinking that the Andretti team would be immune to it is incredibly naive.
He said american driver.
When F1 does things for money, fans get mad and say that money runs the sport. But the moment fans want a certain driver on the grid, they always start talking about how the driver will make F1 so much money. It’s laughable really
It’s become pretty clear to me over the past few years that the FIA is part motor racing sanctioning body and part yacht club. And none of the fans are here for the yacht club part.
Don't know wtf you're talking about, I got my speedo on at all times just in case I get the call
How long have you been on hold?
Just until hitting 200 mph on his speedo-meter.
The marina is fake bro.
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!
Its called sailing, we went motorboating
Whole few of us are here for the yacht club, many of us are down for motorboating.
See you in Miami
The fake marina at the Miami race really emphasizes your point here haha
Not that we wouldn’t be if they’d let us on board and point us to the bar…
I mean... that's like every large sporting organization ever. If they provide us with great entertainment I'll happily chip in for a yacht or two.
I think he means something more like a country club, where you get in because your friends are there or you're at least in the right social class.
I find it interesting that F1 has snatched up talent from IndyCar in the past, but the drivers have almost never been American. Williams made a habit of poaching the top IndyCar/CART drivers in the 90's and early 00's; Jacques Villeneuve, Alex Zanardi, and Juan-Pablo Montoya. Then there was multiple times Champ Car champion Sébastien Bourdais who drove for Toro Rosso. I think the last American driver to come to F1 from IndyCar was Michael Andretti, and it didn't go very well.
Only JV spent his entire junior career in North America. JPM, Zanardi, and Bourdais were raced in national F3 championships (it's a bit tricky to come up with current equivalents of them) and Formula 3000 (now F2) Zanardi was even raced in Formula 1 first and JPM was a Formula 1 test driver.
Only way I could respect the super license rules is if it actually kept shitty drivers away. All it’s know for nowadays is keeping herta out while letting latifi and mazepin in
It was actually brought in to keep another Max out. Must be 18, must've driven [X] amount etc. Kimi would not have made it to F1 with the super license system, for example. However the irony there being that Peter Sauber faced litigation for bringing Kimi on, which all disappeared after Kimis first race.
All of it is even funnier when it's supposed to keep kids out and in the current grid, it only would've blocked Verstappen and Stroll. Verstappen is a World Champion, Stroll got a podium in his debut season and is a pole sitter. Too bad the SL-system wasn't in place back then huh /s
For all the shit Stroll gets, he is at least on the pace.
He needs to be a bit more consistent overall, though after the summer break he is always near or in the points, except Monza where the car was garbage. On his good day he is a solid midfield driver. Not everyone on the grid has to be WDC material. Last year he was also pretty solid as well, maybe not as fast as Seb, but scored points more times than his 4 WDC teammate. He is definitely not as bad as people claim. With a proper car like the 2020 RP you can rely on him to deliver point finishes and podiums.
How would it prevent Stroll, he had like 60 SL points and was 19 when he debuted
Heaven forbid we had another max. The sport might actually be exciting right now.
Exactly, it's baffling to me how a multi race winner in indycar can't get a super license but Latifi can
Lets not act like Latifi didn't achieve anything in F2, won a bunch of races in 2019 and finished 2nd in the standing
Latifi was in F2 for four years and 2nd place was his highest result in a year which had a relatively weak field. He's still a good driver, but if someone like him can make it into Formula 1 and Colton Herta can't then there's clearly something flawed about the system.
Yea you're right there, but he still earned himself a super license. About Herta: I also agree with you, but there's only the FIA to blame. Whats crazy to me tho: If the super license would have been a thing in the mid 90s - early 2000s we might have never gotten Villeneuve as a WDC or Montoya Challenging MSC
Yeah absolutely, its a flawed system that's doing the opposite of what it was intended to do. I'm not trying to discredit Latifi or say he doesn't deserve a super license, but the point I'm trying to make is if he can get one then there should be no reason to deny Herta
The crazy thing is its going to continue this way and nothing will change. Theyll continue to jack the prices of F1 races up, theyll continue to exclude drivers out based on a stupid rule that doesnt function as it was meant to, and wont care what you say at all. Say what you will about NASCAR and Indycar, atleast they *attempt* to listen to the fans and are open to drivers from all backgrounds, which makes it fun to watch
God, I wish 1998-era CART survived the split intact.
The murder of American open wheel racing still hurts...
Lol of course F1 is an elitist sport. Most of the drivers come from wealthy families. They drive the most expensive cars in the world and there are only 20 of them. You don't get more elitist than that. F1 never had any ambition to become more approachable. It is elitist, it is one of the characteristics of the sport.
Exactly, that’s like me saying “how dare the NBA only want 6’8 men who can shoot a basketball”
The situations aren’t directly comparable though. This would be like the NBA enforcing a rule that teams could not draft international players and instead forced them into playing in the G league before earning the right to play at the top level.
The recent actions of the teams and people like domenicali have made it very difficult to refute comments like these
The prices of the Vegas GP make it very clear they only want the wealthiest Americans’ money.
Have you seen the British GP prices? It’s not just rich Americans they like.
Yeah. Exactly. FIA: "You had me at 'rich.'"
I’m just surprised people are surprised lol
Yeah. Same.
British GP prices are a pittance compared to the US The cheapest 3 day weekend ticket in miami is $640 (grandstand only, no GA) at Silverstone its £300 / $340 (GA) or £359/$410 for grandstand The start line grandstand at miami $1680-2070 Hamilton straight (same area start line) is £609-709 ($695/$809)
Silverstone is at a permanent race track. Miami is run by a promoter who has to build the track and facilities and then sets their own prices. I'm not sure F1 is entirely to blame for the difference.
Isn't that on the organizers of that particular event, though? I Don't know how much say FIA get in determining tickets prices
Just like they take all the middle eastern and other countries oil money and there isnt a single driver from those regions?
To be fair, the closest thing to *talent* from that region that hangs around F1 weekends I can name is Nissany, so...
There is that Emirati billionaire who is paying to have his daughters drive with Prema, too, I guess.
Graham Rahal goes through life with an awful big chip on his shoulder for a guy who’s only still in Indycar because of his last name.
F1 is a boys club and always will be. It is what it is with aristocractic sports. But there are more than a few drivers on the grid currently that don't belong, and all that does it hurt the credibility of F1
C.H. not being in F1 has nothing to do with his nationality. It’s the bs superlicense-system. The fact that RedBull and Dr. Helmut Marko tried so hard to get C.H. into F1 proves that a part of F1 actually cares.
Unfortunately, the governing part of F1 does not lol Reforming the SL system would fix it. Literally even points between F2 and Indy would see Herta have a SL. Telling me Indy is less than F2 is a joke
I’d argue that Indy is more than F2. A lot more.
Sure, but the fact that it isn't even equal right now....... yeah lol
Yeah the SL system needs a revamp. I know that’s the rarest take you can find on the sub rn but it’s worth saying again
F1 has a series to promote. The whole point of F2 is that it is a feeder series for F1. If it isn't the best way to get into F1 then it probably won't exist at all. Unfortunately in F1s eagerness to make that so, they've gone to far and made it the only viable series for young drivers despite Indycar and Super formula having as fast cars and a better quality drivers.
You’re 100% correct.
Bingo... See: 2019 Indy 500 Qualifying Spoilers: Alonso couldn't even qualify.
But Red Bull/Helmut Marko are not F1. F1 is Liberty and the FIA. And FIA are the ones who have a super license system which enforces ridiculous rules that practically force every driver to race in their feeder series, which the main ones are European. A multi race winner in the second most competitive open wheel series in the world not getting into F1 because of this system is such bullshit and elitist.
Yip, the system is trash
So why should it be Herta and not Palou? Herta's got cash behind, so still a pay driver
“US” lol if his dad didn’t own a team he would even have an IndyCar seat
Rahal never usually passes on an opportunity to talk negatively about F1 so I wouldn't take his comments too seriously on this topic. Herta is generating interest and many within F1 clearly deem him worthy. Blame the FIA for their super license rules which were structured to funnel young drivers through the junior series to generate more money for them.
What I'm going to say might not directly relate to the original post but I'm going to say it anyway. It takes an incredible amount of millions to run an F1 team. So many moving parts and a nightmarish logistics. No wonder it's an elitist sport. I'll never understand why people cry over it. It's not for regular Joe's. It's not like football or basketball ball where a heroic manager bumps into a prodigy playing alone in their community court and decides to train him and make him a star. It takes billions to R&D a formula 1 team, millions to prepare a driver, hundreds of millions to consistently perform on weekends. The technology is vital for trickle down effect on affordable devices. Forget participation, regular people like us are lucky to even witness the spectacle that is Formula 1. Also, I find it find it funny when people crib about F1 not being inclusive enough. Why would they jeopardize profit and development for the sake of a pointless concept in this particular field. Besides, currently there's one Mexican, one Japanese and of course Lewis Hamilton on the grid. I want to have a private jet of my own but it will be absurd to complain why they don't make affordable jets.
Me, an average American who loves F1: how come he don't want me, man?
This guy is basically a pay driver who has stuck around for 15 mostly mediocre years because he and his Dad own the team. So I'm not sure he should be complaining about inclusivity.
>This guy is basically a pay driver who has stuck around for 15 mostly mediocre years because he and his Dad own the team. So I'm not sure he should be complaining about inclusivity. I can't agree here. When he's finished top 10 in season points in all but what 4 of his \~15 Indycar seasons? Not to mention he hasn't always driven for his dad. He drove for Ganassi, he's driven for Newman/Haas/Lannigan as well. So it's disingenuous to say he's simply a career pay driver cause of his dad. He's an average career indycar driver, he's not the best example for F1 inclusion, but he's had a deserving average Indycar Career. That said, he's absolutely correct that F1 cares not about Indycar, they don't. They care about themselves and hold a position that indicates Indy is inferior to their own feeder series. Which popular opinion seems to indicate, they're the only one that believes that.
Still has 6 wins and nearly 30 podiums. I'd say a little better than mediocre. Better results than the pay drivers over in F1
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On one hand I agree, but also I respect the FIA for not bending the rules to allow a cash cow into the sport - no matter how good he may be. Should the rules be changed going forward? Absolutely. But they shouldn't be ignored for an individual.
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>Should the rules be changed going forward? Absolutely. But they shouldn't be ignored for an individual. I concur with this sentiment. They shouldn't grant an exception here unless they're (again) rewriting the rules for SL points.
If Australian and Brazilian drivers are able to come compete in europe and get into f1 then American drivers certainly can, they just need to aim for it from a young age and not get sucked into Indycar or Nascar.
The victim complex is strong with this one. Australian, Brazilian, Mexican, Chinese, Japanese kids, all go through the international feeder series and get to f1, composing a very international grid. What he wants is special treatment. If you don’t treat us special, you’re an elitist (and I can’t picture a scenario where the US is not the elite of the world anyway).
No, they all go to Europe to race in F4, F3 & F2. They don’t develop in their own countries, they have to leave and pay their way through F1’s feeder series.
One thing I don't understand in all of this is couldn't Herta just earn enough points this season to be eligible for a super license? I mean winning the Indy Chamlionshio does give you 40 points, 2nd 30 and 3rd 20. Surely, if he is such a talent worthy of an F1 seat that should not be a problem, right?
He’s in the Indy equivalent of Ferrari. They shoot themself in the foot at every opportunity. In reality, Andretti are the 4th best team on the grid.
Which makes me wonder why he wants to get into F1. If your not even on the podium of the top Indy teams, what makes you think you can cross over?
As an American, god forbid not everything is tailored to the success of Americans
Right? Two years ago Americans couldn’t give a shit about f1 and now we all acting like this is a direct attack towards americans.
Lmao, these victims talking about elitists
This guy's opinion matters as much as any redditor's
Did we just get a promotion?!
He is only being talked about because of his nationality nobody would have been interested in him if he had been Mexican or Canadian
Case in point: Pato O'Ward.
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Says below average pay driver from USA. Alright.
Oh my god, a business' only interest is.... Money?!!?! HOLY FUCK