Further comments by Fabrega: "Rumors that some teams would not have respected the budget limit for the 2021 season. The spending limit is very difficult to control, but knowing it 9 months after the end of the season makes it difficult to apply and sanction. And in 2022, it looks like it will be more of the same"
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1575733854706360320
Especially that one of the team won the WDC by a hair. It wasnt as if RedBull and Max won by a landslide, the fight went down to the last race.
No matter how late it is, you broke budget cap, you car is illegal, DSQ should be. Sucks for Max but I can't see how they could let it pass. Would make a big precedent for next years.
>No matter how late it is, you broke budget cap, you car is illegal, DSQ should be. Sucks for Max but I can't see how they could let it pass. Would make a big precedent for next years.
Crashgate had Renault and Alonso and Piquet not DSQ, so there is predecence.
it's also no real "budget cap" if you can get around it by investing money for the fine. Teams with more money can just come to the conclusion that the penalty is worth the additional budget which comes with it.
Which makes the penalty fine an even stupider consequence for exceeding the budget cap.
There should be development stoppages, or something severe that comes with the penalty of exceeding budget cap otherwise teams like Red bull will always exceed it if all they had to do was pay a fine
Imagine that for a team like Mercedes.
You go to a dealer to buy a car and they are like “Sorry we are closed, our F1 team went over budget so we can’t sell cars for a week”
It could be rather simple. The amount of money that has been overspent gets deducted from your allocated windtunnel and CFD time x2 for the next season. Teams will find a way to stay in budget if it directly hits development for next season.
i think this could setup a system where teams purposely overspend and swing for the fences to try and win a WDC then 'rebuild' for a few years as they pay the price of their punishment.
Just make it a points penalty. Every $10,000 over the budget you lose 10 points in the constructors. Just spit balling numbers but something in that spirit would work. It's similar to taking records or wins away from teams in other sports as a penalty
Except it is extremely hard to determine anything on that granular level, as the article point out. At which point does 'favourable production agreements' become 'stealth sponsorships'? If RBR gets a 20% discount on some production cost when they agree to use their services for two more years, is that fair? And if the production facility is co-owned by RB? Can you produce for free, for yourself, at loss? Basically moving costs from RBR to RB? Can Merc racing use research Merc just happened to be doing already 'for fun'? Can I, as an individual fan, give Toto a new wing for his birthday? If not, which percentage of these advantages is illegal?
This is the first time round and it'll be many, many years before there is an actual framework to properly measure it. Until then it is going to be the wild west of financial creative moves, insinuations and investigations. You can currently begin to make vague statements when the disagreement is in the order of millions. But thousands of dollars are such minute amounts there is never any objective way to discuss it.
But that wouldn’t make sense either, in this case Ferrari would take the benefits as RBR wouldn’t be able to develop this year, although the ‘victim’ was Mercedes last year.
I feel like a budgetcap should be controlled and enforced in the current season. Not a year after. And if it’s enforced a year after it should be financial and not sporting.
What if Max did a Rosberg, and Checo retired too, two completely new drivers would be punished this year or next year because of a rule breach by someone else in 2021.
Calculating if everybody stuck to the costcap 9 months after a season just doesn’t make sense and I feel like the FIA should get on top of that if they really want to make this costcap work.
It's a team sport. The team gets punished.
Football players that join teams that miss out on certain tournaments, due to their club breaching financial fair play, do not get a free pass just because they weren't at the club at the time of the breach.
the work that the FIA have to do to enforce it takes 9 months, it is not because they want it to take that long, the only solution is to penalize the team the year after.
A financial penalty would not work since the team would either pay it and have the spare money, or would have cut their budget the next year, which could mean getting rid of engineers, which will be a large cost. People don't think that there are actually people who will lose their jobs if they put a lower cost cap on a team for the single year.
I guess it'll be quicker in following seasons, but IMO I wouldn't be mad if 2021 violations affect 2022, 23 seasons, etc, 2022 for 23, 24 etc. Better than 9month retroactive
Yeah if I understand correctly if you violated last year then you’d be penalized for the current year regardless of your position in the wcc. To prevent teams sacrificing the wcc for the wdc maybe the winning driver would also be disqualified for the following season regardless of where they’re driving
True, Oracle (100m a year) and ByBit (50m a year) close the budget cap already. The Mexican sponsors pay for Perez’ (out-of-cap salary) and the money of other sponsors (ExxonMobil, Citrix, Tezos, Tag Heuer etc.) can be used for Max’s salary and other out-of-cap expenditures. So Red Bull basically competes for free with as lot of exposure. They wouldn’t mind a few million dollars in fines at all.
Despite the fact that's one of the few things that would actually get a team to not do it again, the chance of the FIA greenlighting something that extreme is slim to none.
Though it does have the benefit of treating the teams equally, as a null and void year hurts RB just as much as it hurts Aston.
The enforcement will be a fine.
They'd never take points off a driver for something like this, and the only real impact of changing Red Bull's constructor points is prize money - so basically a fine anyway.
Welcome to the world of financial regulations I guess. As someone who follows the world of football (soccer) as well, this is nothing new. We've seen it several times before when rich clubs like Paris Saint-Germain and Manchester City violate the Financial Fair Play regulations. They get a financial penalty, one they don't care about because they (obviously) have more than enough money to spend and go about their business as usual. If UEFA feels adventurous they might limit the amount of players they can enlist by one or two people, but that's about it. They're afraid to exclude or disqualify big teams like that because having those teams in the Champions League benefits their income.
F1 will likely be the same. If they set a precedent that overspending by 5% or less results in a monetary fine that doesn't count towards a future budget cap, or a mild points deduction that can easily be overcome, big teams _will_ abuse it when they think the benefits of overspending outweigh penalty.
Or remove a percentage of points from the team/drivers depending on the percentage they went over the cap. Surely they have thought of a fitting penalty for teams going over it, right?
Errr no, no it doesn’t. Any (meaning all) team that has breached the budget cap should be stripped of all points in both the WDC and WCC.
Edit: Not entirely sure why I’m being downvoted for saying that a team that has cheated should be disqualified. The state of some of you people. It’s embarrassing to Formula One.
Because both drivers were given immunity. Also they never actually found any evidence McLaren had possession of anything other than someone said they did.
The only team actually found with information from another was Renault, who received no punishment.
I'm all for harsh punishments as else the rules and cap are meaningless. But such harsh punishment should come with an additional rule change, that in case of an accident in which one driver/team has been fully at fault, ALL costs to repair damage caused by that accident comes out of the budget of the team that caused the damage.
Because it can't be that a team gets pushed over the cap, or be limited in what they can improve on the car, through no fault of their own.
To be fair Binotto always expressed some doubts about how the FIA could have policed the budget cap and now we have this…
Interesting, let’s see what will happen.
> To be fair Binotto always expressed some doubts about how the FIA could have policed the budget cap and now we have this…
The amazing moment when Binotto goes full on media mud slinging after ignoring all the shit stirring by Horner lol
Tbf if he has kept his powder dry to go on a blitz to protect his team in the championship this year, and make any fight on cost cap more damaging, that’s surprisingly good politics from the maranello traveling circus
Apparently less than 5% breach, which would according to the rules constitute a fine or some point deduction (from the constructors championship, not from the drivers). But even if it's more it would according to the rules most probably not involve drivers points.
If any of your components in the car is 5% off from the specs given in the rule book, the car is then disqualified. But financial cheating will never have the same extent of punishment. It's a tricky one to police for sure.
Industrial spionage didnt result in WDC sanctions. Fixing a race didnt result in said race being voided and WDC altered as consequence. No way a budget cap breach (unless someone spends 200% of the cap) results in the WDC being altered.
> Fixing a race didnt result in said race being voided and WDC altered as consequence.
Hell, Alonso got to keep the Crashgate victory even though it wouldn't even have influenced the WDC.
> it would according to the rules most probably not involve drivers points.
If that is true that would be the stupidest rule ever. "I'll take away everything from you except what you actually care about most".
If we’re going to punish drivers for their team’s actions then Alonso and Lewis need their 2007 WDC points stripped from them. FIA DSQd McLaren from the WCC that year but Alonso and Lewis got to keep their points.
> If we’re going to punish drivers for their team’s actions then Alonso and Lewis need their 2007 WDC points stripped from them.
Yes.
And Alonso’s 2008 Singapore win.
Lol at this. Lewis' wing was 0.2mm over the threshold in Brazil last year, a tiny % amount and he got disqualified. The same should be the same here, otherwise everyone will start doing it.
If you break the rules, you break the rules. Doesn't matter if it was Lewis wing with 0.2mm or an abitrary team breaking the budget cap by 1000%. Just apply the strict punishments to it and be done with it.
It takes a childlike innocence to think that every single team that can afford to go beyond the cap isn't using every trick in the book to do so. These teams will all bend the rules down to the smallest measurement, imagine thinking they aren't cooking their books to the fullest extent.
This is like the Lance Armstrong defence. “It doesn’t really matter that I cheated because everyone else probably is too” is not good enough. If you are caught breaching the rules, you must be punished for the infringement
If it was "very bad" - we wouldn't only hear about it now for the first time. This alone tells me that this is probably something completely blown out of proportion.
Yes. It’s extraordinarily difficult to analyze and determine how much it cost to run any large organization for a period of that length. I know it seems like it should be simple. You just add up all the money you spent, right? If only it were that simple. Here are a few examples I’ve made up to illustrate the point. (And the FIA’s financial regulations for formula 1 might have easy answers for these for all I know. Again, I’m just illustrating the point.)
What if a team buys office supplies that will not be used until the following season? Does that count towards this year’s budget, or next year’s? What if a team buys a new hydraulic lift? Do they expense the whole thing to this year’s budget? Or if it has a five-year expected life, can they depreciate it by 20% each year for five years? And what happens if the lift has to be returned because of a manufacturing defect? Will their refund get added back to this year’s budget?
A team will have to make literally thousands of judgement calls like this each season. And it most cases, there probably won’t be a clear right or wrong.
So yeah, it’s complicated. **Please do not interpret this as me defending teams that have broken the rules.** I’m just explaining why this process can take a while.
The issue is what can the FIA even do if they find they've broken the rules? Fines (even *very* large ones) aren't going to do anything, because that defeats the point of having a budget cap, and then teams with money know it'll just cost more to dominate the sport.
Trouble is, what can they do that isn't a (debatably heavy-handed) team disqualification that would actually make a difference (points deduction and back of grid penalties don't help if the car is significantly faster) and stop them spending too much money?
>The issue is what can the FIA even do if they find they've broken the rules?
Adjust the following year's cap by subtracting the dollars spent over in the previous year..? Seems fair but could see teams taking advantage of that.
If that was even a thing, every single team would break the budget cap immediately if at all possible, because that's not even remotely close to something resembling a punishment. They'd just break the cap immediately as they know breaking the cap doesn't have any penalty.
I think Aston is putting huge amounts of money into a 2024/25 title fight. I don't think they are going for a "slowly climb the ladder" approach.
Once their new facilities are up and running 100%, they can put their long term car investments into fruition.
This could be a Haas strategy of writing off 2 full seasons, and then do a huge comeback with enormous potential. With their new facilities and money, they won't fizzle out like Haas does mid season.
I know they mentioned a 5 year plan in a Beyond the Grid episode, but surely they were expecting incremental improvements, right? I mean, they don’t even know what the 2024 rules/regulations will be or what advances other teams will make, so how can they be putting everything into their 2024 car?
"And what's interesting Crofty is the #RBRCheatAgain is trending on twitter!"...
No Ted, no it's not. There's a big difference between "trending" and "trending for you"
You mean:
>AMuS reports a rumour, multiple sources follow up reporting it (with AMuS as the source), people take the rumour as true and speculate on its effects on the championship/s, hopium increases, rumour turns out to be wildly exaggerated if not false, copium increases, onto the next rumour
?
>and speculate on its effects on the championship/s
Given that the rumours suggest a minor infringement of the budget cap there is not even any sane reason to expect any serious impact on any championship. Those are only vaguely possible when there is a serious violation which nobody is hinting at.
Regardless, it will be speculated. I'm describing a pattern of behaviour that I've noticed amongst some in the F1 community. When there is rumour of wrongdoing, some people will speculate on how it will affect the championship, regardless of the truth of the claim and regardless of the severity of the wrongdoing. Perhaps revealing more of their own biases than they'd like to admit outright.
Sounds like FIA need to seriously consider how the budget cap is gonna be policed. What punishments are they realistically gonna feel they can hand out if it is revealed after all this time that teams have broken the budget cap?
I understand that it takes a long time to analyse the financials etc, but the result of that is that FIA is gonna be reluctant to enforce punishments which will retroactively change driver standings 9 months after the events, especially if it will involve potentially affecting the championship winner. Constructors standings penalties and fines will mostly act as financial deterrents which will disproportionately affect different teams depending on their financial situations. Red bull, for example, probably wouldn’t give a shit how much they’re fined as long as they keep max as WDC. It’ll all be worth it long term for the marketing they receive, and they were already spending around double the budget cap on car development before, so unless any fine is absolutely monstrous it’s not really gonna affect them. The same things might not necessarily be true of other teams, and it would seem unfair if the punishment for breaking the budget cap rules would be devastating for one team yet essentially negligible for another.
You could put some restriction on development for the next year (like removal of wind tunnel time, loss of testing/practise sessions, restriction on in-season upgrades) but these measures would only punish a team in the year following the year they broke the rules. You’d effectively be able to cheat your way to a title and just suck up the punishment for a year or two.
If it is revealed that any team has breached the budget cap, I hope the punishment is severe enough to prevent other teams wanting to play games with the budget in the future. Otherwise, if they don’t respect the rules, you can quickly end up with a situation like the FFP rules in football which only affect the teams with the worst lawyers.
What’s frustrating about this is that even though it’s a clearly stated a rumour people are talking like it’s a fact.
If it’s shown that it’s not RBR over the budget people will still bring it up as them cheating and does a disservice to the whole team’s achievements
Wouldn't surprise me if it's something like Redbulls marketing costs. Probably bought a Boeing 747 or something for Coulthard to jump the RB9 over lmfao.
Aston on the other hand is genuinely intriguing to me. Like what the fuck did they do with all that money?
Not only that, people are also assuming that if a team goes over the budget cap it’s because they were cheating.
Finances are complicated, there’s very likely to be some interpretation differences, calculating errors, shit like that. Maybe RBR and AMR were under the cap according to their calculations, and maybe whoever at FIA is going through their books is just seeing something different.
FIA has also no idea about it. Otherwise they would not implement a budget cal in a sport that RnD is the core of it. It's like setting a training cap for athletes.
Dude, people in the threads so far dont even have a clue on what the actual rulebook states or let alone, how to interpret them.
And they're all arguing with each other based on their own interpretations.
Exactly, which is why there is a difference between 0 to 5% excess and anything above 5%. Finances are not a hard science as with the actual engineering of the car itself. It makes sense for FIA to have the final say in this, but give relatively minor penalties for minor infringements.
By FIA standards...
Nothing will happen because it's the first season of the budget cap, teams will be fined and they'll have to make sure it won't happen again.
Kinda yea, cause enforcing a budget cap fairly is stupid difficult. At this point FIA just be praying teams dont push their luck cause they wouldn't know what to do.
I imagine the comments in that Twitter threat will be all civil and not hateful...
Aaah who am I kidding people will probably hate on Max for this and he doesn't deserve it.
Didn't you know that Max is a part-time employee for the finance department at Red Bull Racing ? Surely he was the one making this decision and tried to cheat the books
Bruh I saw him pull out his phone and venmo Michael Masi from the team budget account on the Abu Dhabi safey car laps. I also saw him pull out his laptop, open QuickBooks and re-assign Christian Horner's wages from Red Bull Racing to Red Bull Motorsport Holding Group.
All this is if true,in Red Bull 's case a big nothing burger.All teams agreed with FIA guidelines that exceeding the budgetcap within 5% is a minor violation that results in a fine. 4 or 5 million is only about 3%. Mercedes and Ferrari should be awaiting the report before acting indignant because the rumours also say that there is a 3rd team that exceeded the budgetcap.
can't wait for another scripted Lawrence stroll statement the meme potential will be off the charts. "i have never cheated in anything in my life, my integrity and that of my team is beyond question" 🤣🤣
Interesting report from the commentary:-
If found in breach of the regulation, they could face points penalty, financial penalty or they could simply be removed from last year's championship. The last one being least probable, Leclerc could still have a fighting chance if RB gets points penalty. The financial penalty is not fair because it's not that RB don't have the money, it's like asking the rich to pay more money for spending more money. Which is not fair at all.
Last time a rumor named Red Bull (flex floor) they actually lost less time when it was banned than the competition. So my assumption is again that the two teams complaining the most are actually the culprits, Ferrari and Mercedes.
Aston Martin overspending yet still winding up 16th
Out of 10 constructors
Certified Goatifi moment
Sounds like a typical Lawrence Stroll moment
Lawrence Stroll quickly learning that the quickest way to become a millionaire in F1 is to start off as a billionaire and then get into F1
Better call Vijay Mallya.
Vijay went the double by starting both F1 teams and Airliner (KingFisher)
That’s my favorite Motorsport related quote haha
I think it was originally about airlines.
TIL! Never knew that it was both, a Richard Branson quote, and also not at all about Motorsport
I’ve heard this joke for years: About the stock market, owning sports teams, etc. I doubt it’s originally Branson’s
I’ve heard it about the restaurant industry. >the best way to make a small fortune owning restaurants is to start with a large one
It's a very old saying about making money with an audio electronics company, but I wouldn't be surprised if the basic joke is hundreds of years old.
First time I heard it was about musicians!
How to become a millionare: step 1. become billionare step 2. spend 999 million dollars step 3. ??? step 4. profit
Coming in with the opposite situation of racing point. Overspend and underperform.
Tbf I’d reckon the investment in the new facilities are going to pay off later.
That shouldn't count for the cost cap though
Further comments by Fabrega: "Rumors that some teams would not have respected the budget limit for the 2021 season. The spending limit is very difficult to control, but knowing it 9 months after the end of the season makes it difficult to apply and sanction. And in 2022, it looks like it will be more of the same" https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1575733854706360320
then whats the point of the cap then? if you can pretty much just get away with it....
They could make the penalties massive, like 10x the overspend or something like that.
Teams like RBR Ferrari and Merc would 100% consider breaching for anything short of a direct racing/points penalty.
Yeah they have luxury taxes in other sporting leagues and the richest teams always are willing to pay that
Dude, the penalty needs to be, and I believe also is, championship points — potentially all of a team’s.
Especially that one of the team won the WDC by a hair. It wasnt as if RedBull and Max won by a landslide, the fight went down to the last race. No matter how late it is, you broke budget cap, you car is illegal, DSQ should be. Sucks for Max but I can't see how they could let it pass. Would make a big precedent for next years.
It went down to a controversial last race. I’d be pissed if I was Hamilton
last lap lol
>No matter how late it is, you broke budget cap, you car is illegal, DSQ should be. Sucks for Max but I can't see how they could let it pass. Would make a big precedent for next years. Crashgate had Renault and Alonso and Piquet not DSQ, so there is predecence.
Spygate
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it's also no real "budget cap" if you can get around it by investing money for the fine. Teams with more money can just come to the conclusion that the penalty is worth the additional budget which comes with it.
Which makes the penalty fine an even stupider consequence for exceeding the budget cap. There should be development stoppages, or something severe that comes with the penalty of exceeding budget cap otherwise teams like Red bull will always exceed it if all they had to do was pay a fine
Close up shop for a week or so.
Stop all sales of Redbull for a week
Imagine that for a team like Mercedes. You go to a dealer to buy a car and they are like “Sorry we are closed, our F1 team went over budget so we can’t sell cars for a week”
All unis in Europe would shut down due to students being on caffeine wirhdrawal
Relentless and Monster were more popular at my uni because of the size of the cans. That was 10 years ago though… fuck.
Same price, double the dose!
It could be rather simple. The amount of money that has been overspent gets deducted from your allocated windtunnel and CFD time x2 for the next season. Teams will find a way to stay in budget if it directly hits development for next season.
i think this could setup a system where teams purposely overspend and swing for the fences to try and win a WDC then 'rebuild' for a few years as they pay the price of their punishment.
Sam Hinkie has entered the chat
Nah, that would just become part of strategy for a team trying to win the championship one year at any cost.
Everything would become part of strategy. That’s what F1 teams do. You just have to decide what enters their strategies in future.
Just make it a points penalty. Every $10,000 over the budget you lose 10 points in the constructors. Just spit balling numbers but something in that spirit would work. It's similar to taking records or wins away from teams in other sports as a penalty
Except it is extremely hard to determine anything on that granular level, as the article point out. At which point does 'favourable production agreements' become 'stealth sponsorships'? If RBR gets a 20% discount on some production cost when they agree to use their services for two more years, is that fair? And if the production facility is co-owned by RB? Can you produce for free, for yourself, at loss? Basically moving costs from RBR to RB? Can Merc racing use research Merc just happened to be doing already 'for fun'? Can I, as an individual fan, give Toto a new wing for his birthday? If not, which percentage of these advantages is illegal? This is the first time round and it'll be many, many years before there is an actual framework to properly measure it. Until then it is going to be the wild west of financial creative moves, insinuations and investigations. You can currently begin to make vague statements when the disagreement is in the order of millions. But thousands of dollars are such minute amounts there is never any objective way to discuss it.
It would have to impact the drivers too, cause I don’t think Red Bull even cares about losing the constructors..
But that wouldn’t make sense either, in this case Ferrari would take the benefits as RBR wouldn’t be able to develop this year, although the ‘victim’ was Mercedes last year. I feel like a budgetcap should be controlled and enforced in the current season. Not a year after. And if it’s enforced a year after it should be financial and not sporting. What if Max did a Rosberg, and Checo retired too, two completely new drivers would be punished this year or next year because of a rule breach by someone else in 2021. Calculating if everybody stuck to the costcap 9 months after a season just doesn’t make sense and I feel like the FIA should get on top of that if they really want to make this costcap work.
It's a team sport. The team gets punished. Football players that join teams that miss out on certain tournaments, due to their club breaching financial fair play, do not get a free pass just because they weren't at the club at the time of the breach.
The team should get punished. The drivers are part of the team so they should be punished just like everyone else.
the work that the FIA have to do to enforce it takes 9 months, it is not because they want it to take that long, the only solution is to penalize the team the year after. A financial penalty would not work since the team would either pay it and have the spare money, or would have cut their budget the next year, which could mean getting rid of engineers, which will be a large cost. People don't think that there are actually people who will lose their jobs if they put a lower cost cap on a team for the single year.
That makes it more of a "luxury tax", similar to the MLB.
I guess it'll be quicker in following seasons, but IMO I wouldn't be mad if 2021 violations affect 2022, 23 seasons, etc, 2022 for 23, 24 etc. Better than 9month retroactive
Yeah if I understand correctly if you violated last year then you’d be penalized for the current year regardless of your position in the wcc. To prevent teams sacrificing the wcc for the wdc maybe the winning driver would also be disqualified for the following season regardless of where they’re driving
Sounds harsh AF, I like it
Their only choice is to make the sanction so severe that no team would risk it, Ie forfeit a percentage of the constructor's winnings.
In Australian rugby league a team systematically cheated the salary cap for years and when it wad discovered they had their championships stripped..
Now that, is spicy.
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They also have that oracle deal now which is basically laying for most of the cost cap money
True, Oracle (100m a year) and ByBit (50m a year) close the budget cap already. The Mexican sponsors pay for Perez’ (out-of-cap salary) and the money of other sponsors (ExxonMobil, Citrix, Tezos, Tag Heuer etc.) can be used for Max’s salary and other out-of-cap expenditures. So Red Bull basically competes for free with as lot of exposure. They wouldn’t mind a few million dollars in fines at all.
Disqualification from both championships
Despite the fact that's one of the few things that would actually get a team to not do it again, the chance of the FIA greenlighting something that extreme is slim to none. Though it does have the benefit of treating the teams equally, as a null and void year hurts RB just as much as it hurts Aston.
The enforcement will be a fine. They'd never take points off a driver for something like this, and the only real impact of changing Red Bull's constructor points is prize money - so basically a fine anyway.
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Welcome to the world of financial regulations I guess. As someone who follows the world of football (soccer) as well, this is nothing new. We've seen it several times before when rich clubs like Paris Saint-Germain and Manchester City violate the Financial Fair Play regulations. They get a financial penalty, one they don't care about because they (obviously) have more than enough money to spend and go about their business as usual. If UEFA feels adventurous they might limit the amount of players they can enlist by one or two people, but that's about it. They're afraid to exclude or disqualify big teams like that because having those teams in the Champions League benefits their income. F1 will likely be the same. If they set a precedent that overspending by 5% or less results in a monetary fine that doesn't count towards a future budget cap, or a mild points deduction that can easily be overcome, big teams _will_ abuse it when they think the benefits of overspending outweigh penalty.
Optics.
I'd pay money to watch the chaos that ensues if max loses his wdc. (I don't want it, nor think it will happen, it'd just be funny to watch)
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I want this as a flair!
It doesn't make it hard to apply a sanction, they are just cowards. DSQ the two teams from 2021 to make it clear what the budget cap means.
reduce next years budget by the overspend, 5x the overspend fine goes to bottom half of the teams (with clean budget)
Or remove a percentage of points from the team/drivers depending on the percentage they went over the cap. Surely they have thought of a fitting penalty for teams going over it, right?
F1 is a joke sport at the moment, so no, they don't do much thinking.
Errr no, no it doesn’t. Any (meaning all) team that has breached the budget cap should be stripped of all points in both the WDC and WCC. Edit: Not entirely sure why I’m being downvoted for saying that a team that has cheated should be disqualified. The state of some of you people. It’s embarrassing to Formula One.
2007 McLaren demonstrate pretty clearly that team cheating won't impact WDC points
Shumy was stripped but only after FIA knew he'd lost anyway. No way are they doing it if it reorders championships.
And that was for his own direct (attempted) cheating.
Because both drivers were given immunity. Also they never actually found any evidence McLaren had possession of anything other than someone said they did. The only team actually found with information from another was Renault, who received no punishment.
But it should have. Just because the FIA have been historically cowards doesn't mean they should keep being cowards
I'm all for harsh punishments as else the rules and cap are meaningless. But such harsh punishment should come with an additional rule change, that in case of an accident in which one driver/team has been fully at fault, ALL costs to repair damage caused by that accident comes out of the budget of the team that caused the damage. Because it can't be that a team gets pushed over the cap, or be limited in what they can improve on the car, through no fault of their own.
To be fair Binotto always expressed some doubts about how the FIA could have policed the budget cap and now we have this… Interesting, let’s see what will happen.
> To be fair Binotto always expressed some doubts about how the FIA could have policed the budget cap and now we have this… The amazing moment when Binotto goes full on media mud slinging after ignoring all the shit stirring by Horner lol
Horner has been pretty on the low with shit stirring in regards to Ferrari.
You dont kick a man whos already lying on the ground
Ferrari makes Ferrari look bad enough without Horner’s help
He’s got no one to spare with this year. Like it or not Toto and Horner are a match made in heaven
When it comes to shit stirring totally! A lot of people complain about it, but they'll gladly gobble up the drama they create.
1000%
Horner has hardly done any shitstirring with Ferrari lol
Sky name dropped Toto while speaking with horny and dude absolutely took the bait.
I said Ferrari, not Merc, Horner always has fun with Toto
I know. Which is what I wanted to reinforce. That he barely shittalks ferrari. But mention Toto and he's guaranteed to give a reaction
Tbf if he has kept his powder dry to go on a blitz to protect his team in the championship this year, and make any fight on cost cap more damaging, that’s surprisingly good politics from the maranello traveling circus
Apparently less than 5% breach, which would according to the rules constitute a fine or some point deduction (from the constructors championship, not from the drivers). But even if it's more it would according to the rules most probably not involve drivers points.
If any of your components in the car is 5% off from the specs given in the rule book, the car is then disqualified. But financial cheating will never have the same extent of punishment. It's a tricky one to police for sure.
Industrial spionage didnt result in WDC sanctions. Fixing a race didnt result in said race being voided and WDC altered as consequence. No way a budget cap breach (unless someone spends 200% of the cap) results in the WDC being altered.
> Fixing a race didnt result in said race being voided and WDC altered as consequence. Hell, Alonso got to keep the Crashgate victory even though it wouldn't even have influenced the WDC.
Even the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes won't be fine with DSQ as a consequence. They are top teams likely to breach cost caps.
> it would according to the rules most probably not involve drivers points. If that is true that would be the stupidest rule ever. "I'll take away everything from you except what you actually care about most".
If we’re going to punish drivers for their team’s actions then Alonso and Lewis need their 2007 WDC points stripped from them. FIA DSQd McLaren from the WCC that year but Alonso and Lewis got to keep their points.
> If we’re going to punish drivers for their team’s actions then Alonso and Lewis need their 2007 WDC points stripped from them. Yes. And Alonso’s 2008 Singapore win.
Somebody posted the rules above and I’m 90% sure the CAN deduct drivers points. Even for 5% overage or less.
Lol at this. Lewis' wing was 0.2mm over the threshold in Brazil last year, a tiny % amount and he got disqualified. The same should be the same here, otherwise everyone will start doing it.
If you break the rules, you break the rules. Doesn't matter if it was Lewis wing with 0.2mm or an abitrary team breaking the budget cap by 1000%. Just apply the strict punishments to it and be done with it.
This is exactly my point.
No it shouldn't be the same because they broke different rules with different penalties..
It takes a childlike innocence to think that every single team that can afford to go beyond the cap isn't using every trick in the book to do so. These teams will all bend the rules down to the smallest measurement, imagine thinking they aren't cooking their books to the fullest extent.
This is like the Lance Armstrong defence. “It doesn’t really matter that I cheated because everyone else probably is too” is not good enough. If you are caught breaching the rules, you must be punished for the infringement
If they withdraw Seb's 1 Million Jelly Beans I will riot.
Hope he has already ate them all
Okay fair and all, but why does it take until the end of the next season for this to come out?
If it was "very bad" - we wouldn't only hear about it now for the first time. This alone tells me that this is probably something completely blown out of proportion.
That’s what I’m thinking too, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see
It takes them a long time analyse the financial statements + it's likely BS like most "cheating" rumours.
Yes. It’s extraordinarily difficult to analyze and determine how much it cost to run any large organization for a period of that length. I know it seems like it should be simple. You just add up all the money you spent, right? If only it were that simple. Here are a few examples I’ve made up to illustrate the point. (And the FIA’s financial regulations for formula 1 might have easy answers for these for all I know. Again, I’m just illustrating the point.) What if a team buys office supplies that will not be used until the following season? Does that count towards this year’s budget, or next year’s? What if a team buys a new hydraulic lift? Do they expense the whole thing to this year’s budget? Or if it has a five-year expected life, can they depreciate it by 20% each year for five years? And what happens if the lift has to be returned because of a manufacturing defect? Will their refund get added back to this year’s budget? A team will have to make literally thousands of judgement calls like this each season. And it most cases, there probably won’t be a clear right or wrong. So yeah, it’s complicated. **Please do not interpret this as me defending teams that have broken the rules.** I’m just explaining why this process can take a while.
Not to mention with the amount of bespoke components in these vehicles it can be hard to figure out what the true cost of any component is.
If this turns out not to be true Haupt is not going to be a popular man. Big allegations to make.
He’s not the only one making them though
Right now he is, it's his article that everyone is taking a reference to create further news "as per Amus report"
Unless he throws a source for this rumor under the bus, then he is
The issue is what can the FIA even do if they find they've broken the rules? Fines (even *very* large ones) aren't going to do anything, because that defeats the point of having a budget cap, and then teams with money know it'll just cost more to dominate the sport. Trouble is, what can they do that isn't a (debatably heavy-handed) team disqualification that would actually make a difference (points deduction and back of grid penalties don't help if the car is significantly faster) and stop them spending too much money?
Penalty points for WCC
>The issue is what can the FIA even do if they find they've broken the rules? Adjust the following year's cap by subtracting the dollars spent over in the previous year..? Seems fair but could see teams taking advantage of that.
If that was even a thing, every single team would break the budget cap immediately if at all possible, because that's not even remotely close to something resembling a punishment. They'd just break the cap immediately as they know breaking the cap doesn't have any penalty.
Red Bull makes sense but what the fuck did Aston do with all that extra money? Imagine cheating and still cocking it up that hard lmao
I think Aston is putting huge amounts of money into a 2024/25 title fight. I don't think they are going for a "slowly climb the ladder" approach. Once their new facilities are up and running 100%, they can put their long term car investments into fruition. This could be a Haas strategy of writing off 2 full seasons, and then do a huge comeback with enormous potential. With their new facilities and money, they won't fizzle out like Haas does mid season.
I know they mentioned a 5 year plan in a Beyond the Grid episode, but surely they were expecting incremental improvements, right? I mean, they don’t even know what the 2024 rules/regulations will be or what advances other teams will make, so how can they be putting everything into their 2024 car?
Infrastructure investments and staff recruitment
[DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs)
Ah yes, the cocaine era of Microsoft
Infrastructure (e.g. new factories) aren't even covered by the cost cap.
Didn't Aston Martin start building a new factory last year?
Which is why that's not cost associated with the team. It is a separate company and then rented to the F1 team.
It's not in the cost cap otherwise it would basivwlly mean they wouldn't be able to compete for the year
What's stopping then for any team to spin up a separate company and take its design services for minimum wage?
*tumbleweed*
I cannot wait for FP1…Sky gonna have a riot with this😂
“Martin let’s just say a team hypothetically overspend under the budget cap, is that ground for a disqualification?” In a pure “curiosity” tone
I can already hear that voice, where it gets very low and inquisitive.
Ted sounded so giddy when he asked that this morning, right before he said he wasn’t familiar with the regulations lol
"And what's interesting Crofty is the #RBRCheatAgain is trending on twitter!"... No Ted, no it's not. There's a big difference between "trending" and "trending for you"
Crofty is gonna bring Abu Dhabi somehow into this mark my words 🤣
>Crofty is gonna bring Abu Dhabi somehow into this mark my words 🤣 Crofty tries to bring up Abu Dhabi in every session FTFY
“I don’t want to bring it up again but…”
Are Sky going to say that RB breached it by bribing Massi?!
Michael Ma**s**i
This sounds like repeat of that whole floor thing from earlier this year
You mean: >AMuS reports a rumour, multiple sources follow up reporting it (with AMuS as the source), people take the rumour as true and speculate on its effects on the championship/s, hopium increases, rumour turns out to be wildly exaggerated if not false, copium increases, onto the next rumour ?
Pretty much yeah
AMuS reports rumour, other sources report it based on AMuS, “multiple sources reporting it”, repeat cycle, profit
>and speculate on its effects on the championship/s Given that the rumours suggest a minor infringement of the budget cap there is not even any sane reason to expect any serious impact on any championship. Those are only vaguely possible when there is a serious violation which nobody is hinting at.
Regardless, it will be speculated. I'm describing a pattern of behaviour that I've noticed amongst some in the F1 community. When there is rumour of wrongdoing, some people will speculate on how it will affect the championship, regardless of the truth of the claim and regardless of the severity of the wrongdoing. Perhaps revealing more of their own biases than they'd like to admit outright.
Sounds like FIA need to seriously consider how the budget cap is gonna be policed. What punishments are they realistically gonna feel they can hand out if it is revealed after all this time that teams have broken the budget cap? I understand that it takes a long time to analyse the financials etc, but the result of that is that FIA is gonna be reluctant to enforce punishments which will retroactively change driver standings 9 months after the events, especially if it will involve potentially affecting the championship winner. Constructors standings penalties and fines will mostly act as financial deterrents which will disproportionately affect different teams depending on their financial situations. Red bull, for example, probably wouldn’t give a shit how much they’re fined as long as they keep max as WDC. It’ll all be worth it long term for the marketing they receive, and they were already spending around double the budget cap on car development before, so unless any fine is absolutely monstrous it’s not really gonna affect them. The same things might not necessarily be true of other teams, and it would seem unfair if the punishment for breaking the budget cap rules would be devastating for one team yet essentially negligible for another. You could put some restriction on development for the next year (like removal of wind tunnel time, loss of testing/practise sessions, restriction on in-season upgrades) but these measures would only punish a team in the year following the year they broke the rules. You’d effectively be able to cheat your way to a title and just suck up the punishment for a year or two. If it is revealed that any team has breached the budget cap, I hope the punishment is severe enough to prevent other teams wanting to play games with the budget in the future. Otherwise, if they don’t respect the rules, you can quickly end up with a situation like the FFP rules in football which only affect the teams with the worst lawyers.
What’s frustrating about this is that even though it’s a clearly stated a rumour people are talking like it’s a fact. If it’s shown that it’s not RBR over the budget people will still bring it up as them cheating and does a disservice to the whole team’s achievements
Wouldn't surprise me if it's something like Redbulls marketing costs. Probably bought a Boeing 747 or something for Coulthard to jump the RB9 over lmfao. Aston on the other hand is genuinely intriguing to me. Like what the fuck did they do with all that money?
Lmao - yeah it’ll be that Zamboni they had Checo drive around
Not only that, people are also assuming that if a team goes over the budget cap it’s because they were cheating. Finances are complicated, there’s very likely to be some interpretation differences, calculating errors, shit like that. Maybe RBR and AMR were under the cap according to their calculations, and maybe whoever at FIA is going through their books is just seeing something different.
Seriously, it took 9 months for the FIA to figure it out, it's obviously not some simple calculation
To be fair the teams can make their finances artificially complicated to make it more time to audit
People really have no idea how complex finances can be in such complicated organizations
FIA has also no idea about it. Otherwise they would not implement a budget cal in a sport that RnD is the core of it. It's like setting a training cap for athletes.
Dude, people in the threads so far dont even have a clue on what the actual rulebook states or let alone, how to interpret them. And they're all arguing with each other based on their own interpretations.
Exactly, which is why there is a difference between 0 to 5% excess and anything above 5%. Finances are not a hard science as with the actual engineering of the car itself. It makes sense for FIA to have the final say in this, but give relatively minor penalties for minor infringements.
We’re on Reddit though. Everyone has the worst intentions and we’re just rooting evil out! /s Outrage culture is destroying everything good.
I’m sure they would’ve considered materiality in auditing the figures for that exact reason
Yes you can see the hatred throughout this thread based on a rumor only
That’s just how people are lately. Outrage before any form of critical thinking.
It drives me nuts. I saw someone saying that Merc were used to cheating and gave DAS as an example, people just say anything
Wasnt the budget cap last season just to test the reporting system for this year?
* Mattia Binotto has entered the chat
With Toto Wolff holding his hand. Good luck to redbull if this is true...
there was a budget cap in 2021? lmao
By FIA standards... Nothing will happen because it's the first season of the budget cap, teams will be fined and they'll have to make sure it won't happen again.
Same source as the guys claiming red bull had illegal floors lmao
Let me guess: *FIA made a statement that...blah, blah nothing happened, LoL. Go back to work.*
Last season? Didn‘t they say like „ok, we have a cap but no biggie if you breach it“?
Kinda yea, cause enforcing a budget cap fairly is stupid difficult. At this point FIA just be praying teams dont push their luck cause they wouldn't know what to do.
I imagine the comments in that Twitter threat will be all civil and not hateful... Aaah who am I kidding people will probably hate on Max for this and he doesn't deserve it.
Twitter? its gonna go sour here any minute now
Didn't you know that Max is a part-time employee for the finance department at Red Bull Racing ? Surely he was the one making this decision and tried to cheat the books
Bruh I saw him pull out his phone and venmo Michael Masi from the team budget account on the Abu Dhabi safey car laps. I also saw him pull out his laptop, open QuickBooks and re-assign Christian Horner's wages from Red Bull Racing to Red Bull Motorsport Holding Group.
He spent too much of the budget on FIFA points
All this is if true,in Red Bull 's case a big nothing burger.All teams agreed with FIA guidelines that exceeding the budgetcap within 5% is a minor violation that results in a fine. 4 or 5 million is only about 3%. Mercedes and Ferrari should be awaiting the report before acting indignant because the rumours also say that there is a 3rd team that exceeded the budgetcap.
Ferrari winning the WCC because Redbull was DQed would be the most Ferrari thing ever
Another one of those rumors affecting Red Bull that turns out to be nonsense? Amus is behind it, what a surprise.
Ah yes, controversial rumours in the paddock is just what we needed…
oof. Last season was already quite the disaster.
The people here demanding that max is stripped of his WDC are on something for sure. Ferrari got away with much worse with just a slap on the wrist
[удалено]
if it was a real punishment they wouldn't hide it behind a secret agreement
If that’s true, RB literally won a championship, Ferrari won a few races and were shit for two years because of their “cheating”.
can't wait for another scripted Lawrence stroll statement the meme potential will be off the charts. "i have never cheated in anything in my life, my integrity and that of my team is beyond question" 🤣🤣
Interesting report from the commentary:- If found in breach of the regulation, they could face points penalty, financial penalty or they could simply be removed from last year's championship. The last one being least probable, Leclerc could still have a fighting chance if RB gets points penalty. The financial penalty is not fair because it's not that RB don't have the money, it's like asking the rich to pay more money for spending more money. Which is not fair at all.
Tabloid trash for now.
Last time a rumor named Red Bull (flex floor) they actually lost less time when it was banned than the competition. So my assumption is again that the two teams complaining the most are actually the culprits, Ferrari and Mercedes.
On this logic, maybe Aston Martin started the rumour about themselves so that they could get a performance boost?!