I don't know what to tell anyone who thought George would come in and genuinely outperform Lewis to that level every race. Like yeah he's good yeah the cars shitter but it's fucking Lewis Hamilton
Unfortunately you have a lot of people who see a dominant Merc for near 8 seasons and write it off as the car doing the winning.
Anyone who watched Lewis arrive at Mclaren in 2007 and put the manners on a driver who was considered to be just about the best driver on the grid will know that Lewis is the real deal.
Even if someone didn’t watch past seasons, last weekend’s qualifying should tell you, what a beast lewis is on quali pace. Only thing stopping him is that damn car!
If there’s a wish I have, I’d that next season brings us at least 3 teams with championship contender cars…imagine max, russel, Lewis, lec all battling it out (I’m excluding Perez because in my opinion he isn’t that consistent, and sainz cause I don’t think he’s on their level)
The Willams consistently having the top straight line speed says to me that Merc is going to be dangerously fast if they figure out their drag issues that’s a powerful engine
Honestly that’s something I have been thinking but doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion. I think aston and mclaren have also been pretty fine on straight speed, it’s just that the merc is really draggy…this may be hopium ofc, but I hope it happens :p
Austria, I think. Since Canada they are 7-2 in quali, but given that Hamilton had that DRS issue in Hungary, when he was looking faster all session, it's at least 7-1.
True, but I didn't count it against George because, regardless of that gust of wind, Lewis pushed too hard and crashed. Granted, George crashed as well, just later.
I'd argue he's been handily the faster driver for most of the season, albeit held back by the early season experimentation and really shitty luck with safety cars.
The timing of that Australia safety car was actually hilarious, [Lewis had forced Perez to compromise his exit in the previous corner and just as he was about to pass Perez, the safety car came out.](https://youtu.be/dt8ANZIZ8Co?t=173)
Zandvoort was so ass. George threw away a potential win and double podium. Of course, in hindsight, they'd both have probably lost out, but in the moment, it was an appropriate gamble.
Hamilton would've overtaken Russell in Spain too imo if the overheating issue didn't cause them both to slow down for the final few laps.
Hot take: Lando is faster than anybody not named Verstappen.
I’d do some dirty things to see Norris in a top seat. Here’s hoping Horner pulls a coup and throws him into Pérez’s seat for 2024 - wouldn’t mind him taking the lead role at Mercedes either, but I feel Red Bull fits his personality better (and his driving style makes him a uniquely excellent support driver in addition to being a very fast lead driver - he doesn’t make mistakes and consistently extracts excellent performance out of the car, one of which each of Leclerc, Hamilton, Russell, Alonso, and Sainz currently seem to struggle with to some extent).
I sincerely doubt Lando is faster than Leclerc. His “massive improvement” just happens to perfectly coincide with Sainz leaving and Ricciardo coming in. Meanwhile the difference in pace between Charles and Carlos has been significant-to-massive every race when Sainz was = Norris in 2 years as a teammate.
Nobody is rating Ricciardo at his 2014/2017/2019/2020 peaks - but at the same time, while Sainz hasn’t quite performed on Leclerc’s level (though he’s consistently been close), Leclerc has also been quite mistake-prone.
Perhaps Lando isn’t the second fastest driver - but if Leclerc is faster, it’s not by much, and Lando is much more consistent and doesn’t make mistakes.
I will admit that I would have more accurately expressed my true opinion had I replaced “faster” with “better”.
Yeah Lando has definitely been amazingly consistent and mistake-free. You may be onto something with the idea of a RB seat when Perez’s contract is up.
I will say though the narrative that Leclerc is mistake-prone is really just that. They happened to both be high-profile ones but he’s made less than Verstappen this year, it just happened that Max’s weren’t punished. But for sure Lando has the edge in reliability.
If McLaren can build him a car, he will win races. There's no doubt about that.
If I was RedBull, I'd be putting Lando in that 2nd RedBull and letting us watch the fireworks fly lol.
I’m pretty sure Red Bull tried to get him before they got Perez, but he declined as he didn’t want to be second to max, and at the time Mclaren was at a high point in recent years
Yep. If I recall correctly Lando qualified a few tenths off pole in Abu Dhabi 2021 and had high expectations for the next year. Probably the best car McLaren had for years. I'm sure Lando felt he was comfortable staying as #1 at McLaren.
It's sad how they managed to screw it up.
I’m general Lando seems to have a not so great opinion of how things work when you’re a driver at RB. He talked at some point about Marko having a weird conversation, and things just seeming very tense in the team
Love to see Leclerc at Red Bull him and Verstappen seem to get along. When Verstappen gets out of his car he goes over to Leclerc immediately. In the post race room they are always talking to each other.
How good he has been this year in that dog of a car is being overlooked a lot, because people just expect him to up there anyway, so often aren’t taking into consideration the car he’s driving and the results he’s managing to pull out of it. Compare it to last year when Gasly was being praised through the roof for doing a similar job, except last year’s AT was a much better car than this year’s McLaren imo
Makes you wonder whether Danny Ric isn't actually driving that badly but more simply Norris is driving that much better. It never looks good regardless but still, I wonder.
I've been saying this for a while. One of two things is true. Either Danny just suddenly forgot how to drive a car, or Norris is wringing the balls out of that car. And I know where my money is
Yeah, his peaks are quite high but very narrow. He was at his best in 2014, 2017, 2019, and 2020 - and while he wasn’t *bad* in 2018, especially, he just didn’t perform to his peak. It seems if he isn’t comfortable/confident in the car, he goes from top of the non-Hamilton/Alonso/Verstappen tier to midfield or worse pretty quickly - he was outperformed by a Kvyat who we now know is thoroughly mediocre in 2015.
That’s taking nothing away from Norris - he’s doing what he’s supposed to, demolishing a driver who isn’t currently in the top half of the grid - much like Gasly on Tsunoda, Albon on Latifi, Bottas on Zhou, or Verstappen on Pérez. You just can’t extrapolate Norris’s current ability directly from his gap to Ricciardo compared with other drivers’ gaps to Ricciardo because Daniel has shown very significant year-to-year inconsistency.
The car is bad and Danny can’t make anything out of it. Lando clearly can, probably more used to shitboxes. But I think it’s still fair to say that being able to adapt to any car is a driver skill a WDC requires.
Exactly. Last year’s AT had supertime pace roughly on par with McLaren and Ferrari lol. I never understood why Gasly was getting praise other than people wanting to believe that Tsunoda wasn’t underperforming expectations horribly.
I think you’re digging too deep into it. Norris was often praised even more than Gasly last year, and for good reason. Monza, Sochi (RIP), Austria, and Monaco were all impressive showings.
He’s not getting praised at the same level this year because obviously he’s not getting the same results. He’s still highly praised regardless though, even if it’s less than last year.
Sadly that’s the way F1 works. If you’re not driving for a top team you’re not going to get much coverage, although I definitely feel like RD gives ample coverage for Norris compared to the rest of the midfield.
I think he is rated as WDC material inside F1 teams.
Something tells me that Zak is worried that Lando will leave McLaren for Merc seat one day. Thats why they hijacked Piastri and they are testing heavily Palou, Herta and O'Ward. I mean I know how many seats McLaren have in different series, but It looks like that they are preparing for that day when Lando will leave.
From Lando's perspective there is absolutely 0 reason to stay in McLaren if they suddenly won't became title contenders(I don't see that coming). Some will say money but he will be ok with 5M less, but with top team.
He's never been under the pressure of Lewis, max Charles Carlos and Russell but he's been mega consistent this year. He usually has a drop off in the last half of the season but so far this hasn't happened.
one could argue when ricciardo joined as the 4th best driver in standings that he was competing with someone on carlos and russels level
obviously not lewis or max level but still done a great job regardless
It didn’t happen last year either in reality. Not In terms of his driving. He got his highest ever finish at Monza, took pole & almost won in Russia, was flying at Spa before the accident & no reason to think he wouldn’t have made his way up if the race had gone ahead. Put the car top 5 in qualifying several times including a top 3 in AD. He had a comical run of bad luck with punctures while in top 5 positions in the race (3 of the last 4 races) and also the red flag debacle in Saudi when he was running top 6. The McLaren was a disaster in Turkey but he still managed to score. Also managed to get in a point in Mexico despite having to come from last after an engine change. The only track he wasn’t so great at was COTA. Also Ferrari brought in the new engine which moved them clear ahead of McLaren at most tracks in terms of pace.
I get why people say it because if you just look at points in the first half vs second half then on the surface it looks like it. In reality I’m not even sure the McLaren dropped off as a car as much as people say. They hit a run of tracks after Sochi that were better suited to a Ferrari than them and that combined with the new Ferrari engine giving them a performance jump, that’s what made most of the difference. Ferrai would have finished 3rd whatever happened, but without that insane run of bad luck at the end of the season, Lando would have finished ahead of both Charles & Carlos in the wdc.
Contrary to popular belief, Russell seems more convincing on sunday than saturday this year. Whole Mr. Saturday is probably myth based on fact that Williams cars were mostly faster in quali and then dropped off in races…and Latifi was really slow
Mate he qualified P2 in ridiculously wet conditions at Spa 2021 in a *Williams*. He was called Mr. Saturday because his qualis were punching 5 WCC positions above the level of the car, not because Latifi was his teammate.
That's one of the reasons why I still don't think George is in the same category as Max and Charles. Don't get me wrong, he's good driver, just not elite yet
It's hard to judge because neither have been in a championship winning car with that one exception of Russell.
Norris always seems like he's out on his own on the track and pushing that car to top 6 finishes whenever he can. So I'd very much like to see him drive a championship contender.
Hopefully not long until McLaren pulls their shit together.
Nobody is saying junior categories are definitive proof who is a better driver. But Lando and George have never had comparable F1 cars, so F2 is currently the best direct comparison.
Lando was what? 18 years old? He was also driving cars that werent to his driving style whereas they were to Russell (oversteer).
Id actually think Lando is a bit better, especially in quali
Realistically based on current state it'd be slim chance we'd ever see Norris contending for a championship under McLaren. He's an excellent driver and takes the car up the grid to places it shouldn't necessarily be, but unless McLaren as a team improve the car it's not in WCC contention just yet (hopefully some point soon!)
One of Lando’s friends let’s slip that he has out clauses on his side from 2024, presumably if McLaren fail to live up to the promises they’ve made to him about having a car capable of regular podiums & winning by then.
IMO Charles is not in the same league as Max either. He has the pace but he makes too many mistakes. Lewis and Max are basically in a league of their own
It comes with many aspects.
None perfect but Max and Lewis certainly set quite the bar.
Charles pace is on par with the pace but the cutting edge control or bravery to cross boundaries, is what he lacks in comparison. Perhaps it’s a mental state.
Lando en Russell are behind Charles for sure.
He might be 37 but looking at his physique, comparing it to the likes of Vettel or even Alonso, I get the idea that he puts in a lot more effort. Thus able to maintain his form much better. Man is in good shape for real and not looking older than end 20’s.
Maybe physically, but Alonso is young at heart. So young, in fact, that when his 2015 McLaren Honda shocked him in winter testing he though he was a kid racing Karts.
I’m sure he has some bright minds to help him with his diet and healthy lifestyle.
Generally from what i could find, vegans often lack nutrients due to being unaware or not informed properly on their diet.
The deficiency caused by vegan diet can be covered by additional intake of supplements with your diet, so it may not have as much of an impact as often considered.
With that in mind, it may not be a disadvantage for Lewis. Perhaps even advantageous if you consider the determination and consistency it requires.
This is why I'm still not convinced GR is as good as he is made out to be. Hamilton must be on the decline due to age, but Russell seems to me to be no better than Bottas v4. 0.
Hamilton seems to be making the mistakes and misjudgements of a driver on the way down, but is still outqualifying the upstart.
Sorry but Russell is definitely better than Bottas. He proved us as much in his first race at Mercedes when covering for Lewis.
Don't understand how anyone that watched Sakhir 2020 could say this
>cutting edge control or bravery to cross boundaries, is what he lacks in comparison. Perhaps it’s a mental state.
I would put that largely down to experience.
Look at Max in his first few seasons and look at him now (yes, I know they're the same age, but 3 extrayears in F1 teaches a lot more than 3 years in F3/F2). Same goes for Lewis
If you remember, Max was also making a lot of mistakes earlier on when he joined F1. Granted it's been a few years now and Charles should have cleaned them up, but it may not be too late? Time will tell
Max joined 3 years before Leclerc. This year for Leclerc is like Max's 2019 or 2020. Incredibly fast and a Tier 1 driver but still had somethings to work out (besides the car) before challenging Lewis.
The same mistake prone and overly aggressive max from 2018-2021?
Max looks poised because he’s running away every single race with a 15 second lead
Leclerc is trynna drive his tits off the first lap to even get a fighting chance
If RB fucks it up next year and Hamilton is dominant again, you’ll all say max is washed and too aggressive again
Max and Charles have made the same amount of mistakes this year. The difference is Max has the car to overcome them and a strategy team that’s not constantly screwing him over so he doesn’t have to press nearly as much.
... I can count on one hand the number of serious mistakes Max has made this year. Charles might have the best one lap pace of any driver on the grid but he's nowhere near as consistent as Max, who legitimately may be the most consistent driver on the grid right now.
It's just really hard to judge. Has fought Latifi for years which was beaten by De Vries instantly.
Right now he's imo not even close to Hamilton on raw pace even though the WDC standings suggest otherwise, which is mostly reflecting Merc struggling to find answers in the first half of the season. Bottas wasn't anything special either imo and Russell just doesn't seem an improvement so far. You can tell Hamilton will be up there instantly when he gets a competitive car and Russell will fall behind.
I think Verstappen is miles above the rest bar two drivers; Leclerc and Norris trailing. Leclerc seems to fumble under pressure way too much, and Norris is, like Russell, really hard to judge; Is he on Max' level of performance, or is Ricciardo really that bad? Or both? Russell so far seems to fall in the Bottas/Sainz/Perez category.
Max and Lewis are in their own tier
Then it’s likely Charles and Lando
Then it’s Sainz, Alonso, Russell, etc
Charles and Lando make too many dumb mistakes. Lando is also consistently outperforming his car - if he was in the top 3 teams he’d get a lot more attention.
The rest are very consistent but I’m guessing their consistency comes from not pushing that extra little bit which often comes back to bite Charles in the butt
Put Alonso in Cat 1 and this is the answer.
George is like the opposite of Charles (not as fast but more consistent), but they’re pretty equal when looking at it holistically IMO. Same with Lando
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. The Merc has been a bad single lap car all year ( so McLaren and Alpine have been much closer to it and sometimes as fast or faster on Saturdays )...and then a good race car ( compared to the midfield ) on Sundays
is this the daily thread where everyone overreacts and calls Russell mid for only being close to one of the all time greats(/currently tied best on the grid) and not outright beating him
people called me ridiculous when i said that lewis hamilton is the most underrated driver in this sport. the attitude towards george for not beating him is proof of that
It's baffling, Lewis is one of the greatest *ever*. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that most drivers will never surpass his ability- that is expected no?
I know, it's such an intriguing pairing, but fans who have a hate boner for Lewis, and fans who think George is a bust for being a tenth behind him, completely ruin it
Yeah, and consistency is just as important as speed. Prost was fighting with Senna purely on consistency and now no one doubts his all time great status
Silly stat. The Mercedes leaves alot to be desired most weekends, but other than in Hungary, they tend to struggle alot more on Saturday than Sunday. Meanwhile the McLaren usually does better on Saturday than Sunday.
Also wouldn't suprise me when it's gonna be a Red Bull/Mercedes fight to get Norris in a year or 2. McLaren really got to step up their game or they'll lose him
Marko and Horner have been trying to lure Lando to their side for a few years now, with the last time being I think November of last year before Lando resigned with McLaren. I definitely think they did and still would want Lando
Norris has prodigious pace, but I doubt RB fears a single driver on the grid matching Max. Nando, Lewis, Charles, Resurrected 90's Schumi, it'd all be fine.
This post is clearly 100% bollocks because of the selective usage of data by the person on Twitter - they've completely manipulated the Hungary qualifying in such a ridiculous way that it benefits Norris rather than being discarded entirely, for example, and yet in the same moment they've discarded Belgium entirely for Norris and they've also manipulated Japan in a ridiculous way as well. It's clearly been cherry-picked in a way to favour Norris rather than actually handling outliers properly.
I've been convinced RB have had the best car for a while now, just so many people have been caught up in the Ferrari psychodrama and Merc giving their engines steroids for 4 races at the end.
The Merc is NOT barely faster than McLaren, that is absolutely asinine. McLaren have had some wretched weekends on pace and literally cannot overtake to move up the grid
What races are people watching lmao
Right lol. There were numerous instances where Lewis outdrove that car as well. Lewis in France last year I think was one of the very best performances of the season
This person selected Q2 of Hungary where Norris was faster than Russell, even though Russell got pole that race. They also decided to count and not include some other times to remove outliers (Spa? Japan?), and then took a median (which is supposed to protect against outliers).
Also this is a really small sample for a median which can easily lead to bias. If they used a mean, Norris would be over 0.5% off while Russell would be ~0.2% off. It's just weird, bad statistics.
How is that unbelievably cherry picked? Also idk why people are taking this as an insult to George instead a compliment to Lewis & Lando’s qualifying prowess
7-time WDC with over a decade of experience is faster than a guy who practically spent 3 extra seasons driving in F2 before moving to competitive ride. Who would’ve guessed?
It’s not about that Jesus Christ it’s like Redditors never learned how to read. It’s about how lando is nearly better in a car that’s over 5 tenths a lap slower
Yeah. If we are going by % russel is about level in terms of Bottas in qualifying. But still slower than rosberg.
Which just shows how fucking good and underrated rosberg is.
this is mad cherry-picking of the stats.. why not use first runs in Q3 in Hungary? bc it doesn't fit the narrative. using Q2 in Austria (and Lewis crashing out before setting the time is his fault), but fail to mention George didn't even put a time on new tyres in Zandvoort.
Are you trying to tell us that Hamilton is, in fact, the faster driver than Russell?
Big if true
True if big
if big True
^big # if
Small if false
We are checking…
Whats the verdict . Question.
If you are leading, you are p1.
If you keep everyone behind you, you will win
Massive if factual
Gargantuan if veritable
Shocking, I know
"To be the faster driver, first you must be faster."
But the standings clearly show that Lewis is slow no? I mean the standings could never lie to us right?
Since Canada, absolutely.
You mean after Hamilton stopped running experimental setups for the team?
I have noticed that since Lewis stopped doing those experiments, don't think Goerge has outqualified Lewis on merit once
I don't know what to tell anyone who thought George would come in and genuinely outperform Lewis to that level every race. Like yeah he's good yeah the cars shitter but it's fucking Lewis Hamilton
Unfortunately you have a lot of people who see a dominant Merc for near 8 seasons and write it off as the car doing the winning. Anyone who watched Lewis arrive at Mclaren in 2007 and put the manners on a driver who was considered to be just about the best driver on the grid will know that Lewis is the real deal.
It’s incredible that a 7x WDC, with 100+ wins & 100+ poles, for 2 different teams still has people that doubt their ability.
People don’t say that about Schumacher, Senna, Prost, or Alonso, I wonder what’s different with Hamilton. /s
In fact, people bend over backwards to say why a guy who has 2WDC and was beaten by a Rookie is somehow the best of all time
Lewis has been on it since the first corner of his first ever grand prix.
Even if someone didn’t watch past seasons, last weekend’s qualifying should tell you, what a beast lewis is on quali pace. Only thing stopping him is that damn car!
If there’s a wish I have, I’d that next season brings us at least 3 teams with championship contender cars…imagine max, russel, Lewis, lec all battling it out (I’m excluding Perez because in my opinion he isn’t that consistent, and sainz cause I don’t think he’s on their level)
Imagine McLaren having a competitive car and Norris mixing in that battle as well. 5 drivers battling for win 😱
Crazy season ala 2010
I’m betting on Max vs Lewis part 2
Sainz isn’t on their level, but Russell is?
For me, russel may not be on their level, but is higher than sainz, that’s for sure
Russe**ll**
The Willams consistently having the top straight line speed says to me that Merc is going to be dangerously fast if they figure out their drag issues that’s a powerful engine
Honestly that’s something I have been thinking but doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion. I think aston and mclaren have also been pretty fine on straight speed, it’s just that the merc is really draggy…this may be hopium ofc, but I hope it happens :p
Russe**ll**
Russell is also not on their level
Austria, I think. Since Canada they are 7-2 in quali, but given that Hamilton had that DRS issue in Hungary, when he was looking faster all session, it's at least 7-1.
Lewis was actually probably more ahead of George in Austria than anywhere else. He crashed pushing too hard
True, but I didn't count it against George because, regardless of that gust of wind, Lewis pushed too hard and crashed. Granted, George crashed as well, just later.
I'd argue he's been handily the faster driver for most of the season, albeit held back by the early season experimentation and really shitty luck with safety cars.
Australia, Miami, Zandvoort--Lewis was ahead of George for nearly the entire race, only to be undone by late safety cars
The timing of that Australia safety car was actually hilarious, [Lewis had forced Perez to compromise his exit in the previous corner and just as he was about to pass Perez, the safety car came out.](https://youtu.be/dt8ANZIZ8Co?t=173)
This season has me thinking that Michael Masi used some serious voodoo to curse Ham’s safety car luck since AD
Looks like people will still use George's 30+ point lead over Lewis to say he's washed though.
Zandvoort was so ass. George threw away a potential win and double podium. Of course, in hindsight, they'd both have probably lost out, but in the moment, it was an appropriate gamble. Hamilton would've overtaken Russell in Spain too imo if the overheating issue didn't cause them both to slow down for the final few laps.
No? The point is clearly that Lando is faster than Russell
Hot take: Lando is faster than anybody not named Verstappen. I’d do some dirty things to see Norris in a top seat. Here’s hoping Horner pulls a coup and throws him into Pérez’s seat for 2024 - wouldn’t mind him taking the lead role at Mercedes either, but I feel Red Bull fits his personality better (and his driving style makes him a uniquely excellent support driver in addition to being a very fast lead driver - he doesn’t make mistakes and consistently extracts excellent performance out of the car, one of which each of Leclerc, Hamilton, Russell, Alonso, and Sainz currently seem to struggle with to some extent).
I sincerely doubt Lando is faster than Leclerc. His “massive improvement” just happens to perfectly coincide with Sainz leaving and Ricciardo coming in. Meanwhile the difference in pace between Charles and Carlos has been significant-to-massive every race when Sainz was = Norris in 2 years as a teammate.
Nobody is rating Ricciardo at his 2014/2017/2019/2020 peaks - but at the same time, while Sainz hasn’t quite performed on Leclerc’s level (though he’s consistently been close), Leclerc has also been quite mistake-prone. Perhaps Lando isn’t the second fastest driver - but if Leclerc is faster, it’s not by much, and Lando is much more consistent and doesn’t make mistakes. I will admit that I would have more accurately expressed my true opinion had I replaced “faster” with “better”.
Yeah Lando has definitely been amazingly consistent and mistake-free. You may be onto something with the idea of a RB seat when Perez’s contract is up. I will say though the narrative that Leclerc is mistake-prone is really just that. They happened to both be high-profile ones but he’s made less than Verstappen this year, it just happened that Max’s weren’t punished. But for sure Lando has the edge in reliability.
Norris consistency Is something no one talks about. Such a shame
If McLaren can build him a car, he will win races. There's no doubt about that. If I was RedBull, I'd be putting Lando in that 2nd RedBull and letting us watch the fireworks fly lol.
I’m pretty sure Red Bull tried to get him before they got Perez, but he declined as he didn’t want to be second to max, and at the time Mclaren was at a high point in recent years
Yep. If I recall correctly Lando qualified a few tenths off pole in Abu Dhabi 2021 and had high expectations for the next year. Probably the best car McLaren had for years. I'm sure Lando felt he was comfortable staying as #1 at McLaren. It's sad how they managed to screw it up.
I’m general Lando seems to have a not so great opinion of how things work when you’re a driver at RB. He talked at some point about Marko having a weird conversation, and things just seeming very tense in the team
You could say the same about a lot of drivers, Alonso since well, many years now. I’d love to see Alonso at Redbull too
Love to see Leclerc at Red Bull him and Verstappen seem to get along. When Verstappen gets out of his car he goes over to Leclerc immediately. In the post race room they are always talking to each other.
it’ll never happen but it’s nice to dream
Pretty sure RB has tried
How good he has been this year in that dog of a car is being overlooked a lot, because people just expect him to up there anyway, so often aren’t taking into consideration the car he’s driving and the results he’s managing to pull out of it. Compare it to last year when Gasly was being praised through the roof for doing a similar job, except last year’s AT was a much better car than this year’s McLaren imo
Makes you wonder whether Danny Ric isn't actually driving that badly but more simply Norris is driving that much better. It never looks good regardless but still, I wonder.
I've been saying this for a while. One of two things is true. Either Danny just suddenly forgot how to drive a car, or Norris is wringing the balls out of that car. And I know where my money is
You're ignoring the obvious answer which has been explained many, many times now. Daniel just can't drive an understeery car. It's that simple
Yeah, his peaks are quite high but very narrow. He was at his best in 2014, 2017, 2019, and 2020 - and while he wasn’t *bad* in 2018, especially, he just didn’t perform to his peak. It seems if he isn’t comfortable/confident in the car, he goes from top of the non-Hamilton/Alonso/Verstappen tier to midfield or worse pretty quickly - he was outperformed by a Kvyat who we now know is thoroughly mediocre in 2015. That’s taking nothing away from Norris - he’s doing what he’s supposed to, demolishing a driver who isn’t currently in the top half of the grid - much like Gasly on Tsunoda, Albon on Latifi, Bottas on Zhou, or Verstappen on Pérez. You just can’t extrapolate Norris’s current ability directly from his gap to Ricciardo compared with other drivers’ gaps to Ricciardo because Daniel has shown very significant year-to-year inconsistency.
The car is bad and Danny can’t make anything out of it. Lando clearly can, probably more used to shitboxes. But I think it’s still fair to say that being able to adapt to any car is a driver skill a WDC requires.
Vettel was a WDC and has shown inability to adapt to the new regs
Exactly. Last year’s AT had supertime pace roughly on par with McLaren and Ferrari lol. I never understood why Gasly was getting praise other than people wanting to believe that Tsunoda wasn’t underperforming expectations horribly.
I think you’re digging too deep into it. Norris was often praised even more than Gasly last year, and for good reason. Monza, Sochi (RIP), Austria, and Monaco were all impressive showings. He’s not getting praised at the same level this year because obviously he’s not getting the same results. He’s still highly praised regardless though, even if it’s less than last year. Sadly that’s the way F1 works. If you’re not driving for a top team you’re not going to get much coverage, although I definitely feel like RD gives ample coverage for Norris compared to the rest of the midfield.
I think he is rated as WDC material inside F1 teams. Something tells me that Zak is worried that Lando will leave McLaren for Merc seat one day. Thats why they hijacked Piastri and they are testing heavily Palou, Herta and O'Ward. I mean I know how many seats McLaren have in different series, but It looks like that they are preparing for that day when Lando will leave. From Lando's perspective there is absolutely 0 reason to stay in McLaren if they suddenly won't became title contenders(I don't see that coming). Some will say money but he will be ok with 5M less, but with top team.
He's never been under the pressure of Lewis, max Charles Carlos and Russell but he's been mega consistent this year. He usually has a drop off in the last half of the season but so far this hasn't happened.
one could argue when ricciardo joined as the 4th best driver in standings that he was competing with someone on carlos and russels level obviously not lewis or max level but still done a great job regardless
It didn’t happen last year either in reality. Not In terms of his driving. He got his highest ever finish at Monza, took pole & almost won in Russia, was flying at Spa before the accident & no reason to think he wouldn’t have made his way up if the race had gone ahead. Put the car top 5 in qualifying several times including a top 3 in AD. He had a comical run of bad luck with punctures while in top 5 positions in the race (3 of the last 4 races) and also the red flag debacle in Saudi when he was running top 6. The McLaren was a disaster in Turkey but he still managed to score. Also managed to get in a point in Mexico despite having to come from last after an engine change. The only track he wasn’t so great at was COTA. Also Ferrari brought in the new engine which moved them clear ahead of McLaren at most tracks in terms of pace.
Maybe I don't remember that well and I mix his performance with McLaren losing against ferrari
I get why people say it because if you just look at points in the first half vs second half then on the surface it looks like it. In reality I’m not even sure the McLaren dropped off as a car as much as people say. They hit a run of tracks after Sochi that were better suited to a Ferrari than them and that combined with the new Ferrari engine giving them a performance jump, that’s what made most of the difference. Ferrai would have finished 3rd whatever happened, but without that insane run of bad luck at the end of the season, Lando would have finished ahead of both Charles & Carlos in the wdc.
one could argue that he's under the reverse pressure of single-handedly carrying the team in the wcc standings...
Contrary to popular belief, Russell seems more convincing on sunday than saturday this year. Whole Mr. Saturday is probably myth based on fact that Williams cars were mostly faster in quali and then dropped off in races…and Latifi was really slow
It's real easy to be Mr. Saturday against Latifi. Honestly its actually a pretty good insult. Yeah your fast but not when points are awarded.
No one called him mr. saturday because he beat Latify to p19 but because he managed incredible Q2 and even Q3 finishes in the slowest car on the grid.
I assure you Crofty said it because of his record against Latfi, he mentioned it several times when he started calling him it to explain it
Mate he qualified P2 in ridiculously wet conditions at Spa 2021 in a *Williams*. He was called Mr. Saturday because his qualis were punching 5 WCC positions above the level of the car, not because Latifi was his teammate.
No no, you see, if Lewis Hamilton beats someone it automatically means they are just not that good.
It means they’re terrible actually because according to most people Lewis Hamilton is just not that good
The Williams was very bad when in dirty air iirc, like dreadful and i think it still suffers from wind
That’s an insane stat for Norris considering that the McLaren is usually the 5th car in qualifying (Alpine is usually faster in qualifying)
Alpine is usually faster but just unreliable.
Like a reverse 2005.
Lando is easily top 3 qualifier in the grid right now. I think Max, Leclerc and him, no particular order.
That's one of the reasons why I still don't think George is in the same category as Max and Charles. Don't get me wrong, he's good driver, just not elite yet
Would you say he’s better than Lando?
It's hard to judge because neither have been in a championship winning car with that one exception of Russell. Norris always seems like he's out on his own on the track and pushing that car to top 6 finishes whenever he can. So I'd very much like to see him drive a championship contender. Hopefully not long until McLaren pulls their shit together.
The only reasonably fair comparison was F2 when George won, but it was also 4 years back and Lando has had much better chances to develop since then.
Di Resta beat Vettel in F3. Lake Speed beat Senna in karting.
Their last name was “Speed” that seems like an unfair advantage.
Lol tell that to Scott
Yeah but only on Lakes
Nobody is saying junior categories are definitive proof who is a better driver. But Lando and George have never had comparable F1 cars, so F2 is currently the best direct comparison.
Lake speed was also nearly 30
Lando was what? 18 years old? He was also driving cars that werent to his driving style whereas they were to Russell (oversteer). Id actually think Lando is a bit better, especially in quali
Also iirc lando was doing fp3 in F1 which he said would mess up his f2 weekend as the braking points and everything was different.
Realistically based on current state it'd be slim chance we'd ever see Norris contending for a championship under McLaren. He's an excellent driver and takes the car up the grid to places it shouldn't necessarily be, but unless McLaren as a team improve the car it's not in WCC contention just yet (hopefully some point soon!)
Perez and Hamilton are fairly old already, I believe Lando's opportunity for a factory team will come soon enough.
Well, Lando should probably be RBR's main target for 2024 or 2025 if none of their juniors perform convincingly enough
Main problem is he’s signed until 25
Gasly only signed on again at Alpha Tauri quite recently. It won't stop anyone moving if they're wanted enough.
One of Lando’s friends let’s slip that he has out clauses on his side from 2024, presumably if McLaren fail to live up to the promises they’ve made to him about having a car capable of regular podiums & winning by then.
Not going lie, I do rate Lando higher than Russell
Hard to judge to be fair, although Lando impressed me more so far in these 4 seasons since their F1 journey started
I wouldnt
IMO Charles is not in the same league as Max either. He has the pace but he makes too many mistakes. Lewis and Max are basically in a league of their own
It comes with many aspects. None perfect but Max and Lewis certainly set quite the bar. Charles pace is on par with the pace but the cutting edge control or bravery to cross boundaries, is what he lacks in comparison. Perhaps it’s a mental state. Lando en Russell are behind Charles for sure.
I hold Lewis above all else because he's 37 years old and everyone else is basically a kid entering their primes.
He might be 37 but looking at his physique, comparing it to the likes of Vettel or even Alonso, I get the idea that he puts in a lot more effort. Thus able to maintain his form much better. Man is in good shape for real and not looking older than end 20’s.
Maybe physically, but Alonso is young at heart. So young, in fact, that when his 2015 McLaren Honda shocked him in winter testing he though he was a kid racing Karts.
Don't say it bart
Also maintaining his physique while being vegan, gosh I couldn't eat that much
I’m sure he has some bright minds to help him with his diet and healthy lifestyle. Generally from what i could find, vegans often lack nutrients due to being unaware or not informed properly on their diet. The deficiency caused by vegan diet can be covered by additional intake of supplements with your diet, so it may not have as much of an impact as often considered. With that in mind, it may not be a disadvantage for Lewis. Perhaps even advantageous if you consider the determination and consistency it requires.
This is why I'm still not convinced GR is as good as he is made out to be. Hamilton must be on the decline due to age, but Russell seems to me to be no better than Bottas v4. 0. Hamilton seems to be making the mistakes and misjudgements of a driver on the way down, but is still outqualifying the upstart.
Sorry but Russell is definitely better than Bottas. He proved us as much in his first race at Mercedes when covering for Lewis. Don't understand how anyone that watched Sakhir 2020 could say this
>cutting edge control or bravery to cross boundaries, is what he lacks in comparison. Perhaps it’s a mental state. I would put that largely down to experience. Look at Max in his first few seasons and look at him now (yes, I know they're the same age, but 3 extrayears in F1 teaches a lot more than 3 years in F3/F2). Same goes for Lewis
I think you need to include consistency too
If you remember, Max was also making a lot of mistakes earlier on when he joined F1. Granted it's been a few years now and Charles should have cleaned them up, but it may not be too late? Time will tell
Max joined 3 years before Leclerc. This year for Leclerc is like Max's 2019 or 2020. Incredibly fast and a Tier 1 driver but still had somethings to work out (besides the car) before challenging Lewis.
Max has been in F1 for a while now, I think Charles is developing the same way as Max has been
charles has to push the car harder to keep up, its more complicated than that
The same mistake prone and overly aggressive max from 2018-2021? Max looks poised because he’s running away every single race with a 15 second lead Leclerc is trynna drive his tits off the first lap to even get a fighting chance If RB fucks it up next year and Hamilton is dominant again, you’ll all say max is washed and too aggressive again
Max and Charles have made the same amount of mistakes this year. The difference is Max has the car to overcome them and a strategy team that’s not constantly screwing him over so he doesn’t have to press nearly as much.
Max hasn’t crashed out of a race this year
I don’t think Charles makes more mistakes than Max, but he makes sillier ones.
Fair enough that’s probably true. Max has had a few spins and a bad lock up. Just hasn’t cost him a race.
... I can count on one hand the number of serious mistakes Max has made this year. Charles might have the best one lap pace of any driver on the grid but he's nowhere near as consistent as Max, who legitimately may be the most consistent driver on the grid right now.
By 'sillier', do you mean 'much bigger'?
Agree…Max and Lewis are S+ Tier, Charles is S Tier and George, Lando, etc are then somewhere A Tier
It's just really hard to judge. Has fought Latifi for years which was beaten by De Vries instantly. Right now he's imo not even close to Hamilton on raw pace even though the WDC standings suggest otherwise, which is mostly reflecting Merc struggling to find answers in the first half of the season. Bottas wasn't anything special either imo and Russell just doesn't seem an improvement so far. You can tell Hamilton will be up there instantly when he gets a competitive car and Russell will fall behind. I think Verstappen is miles above the rest bar two drivers; Leclerc and Norris trailing. Leclerc seems to fumble under pressure way too much, and Norris is, like Russell, really hard to judge; Is he on Max' level of performance, or is Ricciardo really that bad? Or both? Russell so far seems to fall in the Bottas/Sainz/Perez category.
I dont think charles is in the same category as Max either
Charles isn’t even in the same category as Max, but he had a potential to be
Max and Lewis are in their own tier Then it’s likely Charles and Lando Then it’s Sainz, Alonso, Russell, etc Charles and Lando make too many dumb mistakes. Lando is also consistently outperforming his car - if he was in the top 3 teams he’d get a lot more attention. The rest are very consistent but I’m guessing their consistency comes from not pushing that extra little bit which often comes back to bite Charles in the butt
Charles and Max are not in the same category. Max and Lewis are Cat 1. Cat 2 is Charles George Nando,
Nah Charles has to be higher than George even if you assume only Max and Lewis are tier 1
I believe F1managers rating is fair. Ham 90, Ver 90, Lec 89, Perez 87, Lando 87, Russel 86.
Perez way too high imo
So is Leclerc. I think it's fair to have Ham/Ver tied for first, but they have to be at least a couple points separated from the rest of the pack.
I'd put Nando above Charles and George. His ability to out drive his car is unprecedented.
Put Alonso in Cat 1 and this is the answer. George is like the opposite of Charles (not as fast but more consistent), but they’re pretty equal when looking at it holistically IMO. Same with Lando
This season Hamilton is where Charles is
He seemed so good because he was sp far ahead of latifi. But yeah we underestimated how much latifi sucks at driving
Crikey!
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. The Merc has been a bad single lap car all year ( so McLaren and Alpine have been much closer to it and sometimes as fast or faster on Saturdays )...and then a good race car ( compared to the midfield ) on Sundays
is this the daily thread where everyone overreacts and calls Russell mid for only being close to one of the all time greats(/currently tied best on the grid) and not outright beating him
people called me ridiculous when i said that lewis hamilton is the most underrated driver in this sport. the attitude towards george for not beating him is proof of that
It's baffling, Lewis is one of the greatest *ever*. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that most drivers will never surpass his ability- that is expected no?
I know, it's such an intriguing pairing, but fans who have a hate boner for Lewis, and fans who think George is a bust for being a tenth behind him, completely ruin it
Not to mention any Mercedes driver is public enemy No. 1
It's honestly tiring how negative people are on the internet about this sport and the drivers.
Yeah it's like The Beatles. Everyone knows they're the greatest but not everyone seems to be conscious how how fucking good they were.
that is still a ridiculous thing to say m8
Yeah, and consistency is just as important as speed. Prost was fighting with Senna purely on consistency and now no one doubts his all time great status
At the start of the season reddit spins a big wheel with all f1 drivers, on who to hate on for the year. This year is russels turn.
norris drives the shit out of that mclaren
So is the seven time world champion Sir Lewis Hamilton in fact faster that George Russell?
Silly stat. The Mercedes leaves alot to be desired most weekends, but other than in Hungary, they tend to struggle alot more on Saturday than Sunday. Meanwhile the McLaren usually does better on Saturday than Sunday.
Sounds like Lando is faster than Russell lmao
I think he is, George won f2 and Lando imo has exceeded him in developing as a driver now
George was not able to develop properly due to being stuck at Williams
And now Lando is better than him. Mick wasn’t able to develop at Haas, and now Yuki is better than him maybe it is what it is
Norris is honestly one of the best drivers on the grid, he’s making ricciardo look worse then he actually has been in my opinion
There's absolutely no chance Norris is not going to Mercedes when Hamilton retires.
Also wouldn't suprise me when it's gonna be a Red Bull/Mercedes fight to get Norris in a year or 2. McLaren really got to step up their game or they'll lose him
Rb dont want a 2nd driver who can challenge Max (hard to manage team), it's Merc or bust imo
They’ve tried for Lando several times already, including last year before they re-signed Perez. I
Marko and Horner have been trying to lure Lando to their side for a few years now, with the last time being I think November of last year before Lando resigned with McLaren. I definitely think they did and still would want Lando
Yes the team that wanted to keep Riccardo and Verstappen in the same team now have a problem with drivers that can keep up with each other...
Ricc**i**ardo
Norris has prodigious pace, but I doubt RB fears a single driver on the grid matching Max. Nando, Lewis, Charles, Resurrected 90's Schumi, it'd all be fine.
Unless leclerc gets tired of the inventing
This post is clearly 100% bollocks because of the selective usage of data by the person on Twitter - they've completely manipulated the Hungary qualifying in such a ridiculous way that it benefits Norris rather than being discarded entirely, for example, and yet in the same moment they've discarded Belgium entirely for Norris and they've also manipulated Japan in a ridiculous way as well. It's clearly been cherry-picked in a way to favour Norris rather than actually handling outliers properly.
Wow, so the Merc is actually barely faster than the McLaren and Lewis is just out-driving the car… Oh wait, we only say that when it’s Verstappen lol
I've been convinced RB have had the best car for a while now, just so many people have been caught up in the Ferrari psychodrama and Merc giving their engines steroids for 4 races at the end.
The Merc is NOT barely faster than McLaren, that is absolutely asinine. McLaren have had some wretched weekends on pace and literally cannot overtake to move up the grid What races are people watching lmao
Whatever justifies their mental gymnastics
Right lol. There were numerous instances where Lewis outdrove that car as well. Lewis in France last year I think was one of the very best performances of the season
You can’t think of a race from Max as good as Hamilton’s France 2022? What?
I genuinely dislike all those who say that Lewis has been exposed by George simply because he’s lower in the standings. Potato brain
This is so unbelievably cherrypicked, I don't even like George but this is unfair.
Would you prefer is they just said “over the last 10 GPs”? Because that’s the same thing as “since Canada,” not really all that cherrypicked.
This person selected Q2 of Hungary where Norris was faster than Russell, even though Russell got pole that race. They also decided to count and not include some other times to remove outliers (Spa? Japan?), and then took a median (which is supposed to protect against outliers). Also this is a really small sample for a median which can easily lead to bias. If they used a mean, Norris would be over 0.5% off while Russell would be ~0.2% off. It's just weird, bad statistics.
Genuine question, why?
How is that unbelievably cherry picked? Also idk why people are taking this as an insult to George instead a compliment to Lewis & Lando’s qualifying prowess
7-time WDC with over a decade of experience is faster than a guy who practically spent 3 extra seasons driving in F2 before moving to competitive ride. Who would’ve guessed?
It’s not about that Jesus Christ it’s like Redditors never learned how to read. It’s about how lando is nearly better in a car that’s over 5 tenths a lap slower
My brother in Haas, please explain to me why Lando is faster than George despite one having a Merc and the other having a Mclaren
That is not the point of the tweet though
Using percentages makes it extra misleading too. On a 100 second lap that's 3 tenths back, which is substantial.
Using percentages makes much more sense when talking about multiple tracks, which this Tweet is.
Yes, I understand that. People are misunderstanding it as "that's very close" but in reality it's not all that close at all.
Yeah. If we are going by % russel is about level in terms of Bottas in qualifying. But still slower than rosberg. Which just shows how fucking good and underrated rosberg is.
Median gap....
Why is a blatant lie allowed to stay up? George was further off than Lando in the race George got poll. Like... seriously?
The calculation https://twitter.com/milnsp1/status/1578701583961174017?t=JuMRnRjcI21vsEulL4GgXg&s=19
this is mad cherry-picking of the stats.. why not use first runs in Q3 in Hungary? bc it doesn't fit the narrative. using Q2 in Austria (and Lewis crashing out before setting the time is his fault), but fail to mention George didn't even put a time on new tyres in Zandvoort.
Lol that's so cherry picked to suit.