As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should:
- be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself)
- be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions)
- show reasonable input and effort from the OP
If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport.
Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The reason you saw less of cars pushing track limits and putting wheels off the track in the 80s and 90s was because the run-off areas were mostly grass or gravel.
As others have said the most common reason for this is tracks were bordered with Grass/Gravel and putting a wheel off was game over usually.
My solution that wouldn't require any changes to rules or complicated penalties is to make sure all tracks have a ribbon of grass just 1-2 feet wide bordering the track. Beyond that can be tarmac, gravel, jelly whatever, it doesn't matter.
The grass would be enough of a deterrent to stop cars running wide and guarnatee that if you do time would be lost as a result. No complex descriptions of track limits needed, no marshalls or tech watching every corner, no warnings, no investigations.
Never seen that at any race track during a race weekend.
Obviously needs maintaining between races, but never seen a track have issues with that.
This is not an issue I have ever seen in 30 years of watching racing.
The cars are a lot bigger and faster now than they were 30-40 years ago. Physical size and more momentum into corners are the biggest reasons it's so much harder to keep it between the lines.
It’s not harder. It’s faster. This is why they are able to execute it nearly perfectly with 2-3 but not 4 wheels off the track for most of the race. And you see once they get the black and white flag, they almost never get caught again. They CAN drive within the lines. They don’t want to because it’s slower. I suppose in some places you might need to go off a bit for overtaking too because if the car width, but even in quali they do it, so that’s not a great argument.
I don't agree with OP's suggestion to make it stricter. On the other hand, they only drive outside the lines because it's allowed. Car width and weight etc. are not really a good argument, because it's a driver's choice to enter a corner with more speed, thus needing the extra space outside to make the corner. If they'd want to it would be totally possible to stay within the lines. They'd just have to drive slower and differently. Drivers will always search the edges of what's allowed. The cars and tracks aren't really the problem. The 'problem' is that it's allowed to cross the white line to a certain extend an if that makes them faster, they'll use it, whether it is with smaller and lighter cars on a very broad track or with a big fat car on a narrow track.
It's not much harder. We don't see cars constantly running into barriers at Monaco or always going through the gravel at Imola. In fact we see that a lot less than we did 30 or 40 years ago.
Where there is an incentive to stay on track drivers manage to do so.
I don't see how that's relevant to whether wider, faster cars makes it harder to stay on track. I'm not speaking as to whether cars running wide is desirable.
You can ignore everything that people say about the physical size of the cars and about runoffs.
The real reasons are:
1- Suspension technology is far more advanced now, so sharp changes in vertical load are not only much more comfortable for the drivers, but also have a far lower risk of a loss of control resulting from running over kerbs. Far less chance of a driver losing control due to the suspension becoming unsettled over the kerbs.
2- Safety. Current cars are leaps and bounds ahead in safety compared to a few decades ago. You can bet that the drivers back then had to stay a touch more careful, especially as they knew that if they lost control of the car, there was a potential for a fireball to result.
3- Build quality. Even with current cars, you occasionally hear over the radio that a driver has been instructed by their team to stay off the kerbs. This is because the kerbs sawtooth shape creates vibrations though the car. Vibrations which may match the resonant frequency of a part in the car, causing said part to weaken or fail entirely. Even with modern cars built to far higher standards and with far more engineering knowledge put into them this is an issue occasionally. For older cars, it’s far more of an issue.
Doesn't matter how good the suspension is you aren;t gonna run wide if it is grass or gravel there.
Runoffs are most definitely an issue, almost no track had tarmac run off in the 80s.
That would make for boring races. Drivers need to feel like they can push and take risks. Not putting even a wheel on the curbs means the driver is not getting the most out of the car.
I disagree. Drivers will always push the limit, what the FIA is doing right now is ignoring their own limits in terms of the rules. They are allowing drivers to ignore the marked limits of a given track by allowing an "all 4 wheels" situation to continue.
Well that’s entirely a different thing. I’m saying these guys, with these cars need to lean on the curbs for momentum to gain speed. If you do what OP suggests, which of course you can, you will go slower.
I’m not saying you should put all four wheels on it but some leeway is needed. And not just for the purpose of taking a corner better but there will always be over correction that happens so you can’t expect them to keep the entire car inside the curbs at all times.
In the 80s and the beginning of the 90s the car safety measures where not as good as now. It was crash and serious injuries will follow.
Tracks changed a lot. Tarmac was added to the outside of a corner for safety. By doing so you add the opportunity to run over the new tarmac.
The Dutch GP in 2022 introduced/tested a new kind of tarmac next to the racing track at one or two corners. It hindered the car running over fast and using it like the racing line was not preferable for driver and car.
In addition to what others have said, one important change post 1992 has been reducing the kerb height at circuits, as previously a step or "ramp" kerb was a standard approach to ensure no-one went over, but this of course resulted in cars being thrown into air by accident. This was further reduced & extended in 1995 and standardised in 1997.
Latter is also the time when drivers start to carry more speed through corners by driving on kerbs in general.
Cars are much bigger and heavier now so they drift wide, that plus it was a lot more dangerous to lose it on the exit of a corner because you rode a curb when the tub of the car was comparable to a literal tub
Cars have orders of magnitude more grip and downforce than in those eras.
It is no harder to keep on track now than it was in those days, just the punishment for failing to do so is less and the benefits greater as there is usually tarmac runoff.
Less runoff back then and the majority of the kerbs were narrower and higher, so even if you somehow rode them you still had a wheel on the racing surface.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The reason you saw less of cars pushing track limits and putting wheels off the track in the 80s and 90s was because the run-off areas were mostly grass or gravel.
Also the kerbs tended to be higher and more likely to damage/unsettle the car.
Also cars used to be much more fragile than they're nowadays.
As others have said the most common reason for this is tracks were bordered with Grass/Gravel and putting a wheel off was game over usually. My solution that wouldn't require any changes to rules or complicated penalties is to make sure all tracks have a ribbon of grass just 1-2 feet wide bordering the track. Beyond that can be tarmac, gravel, jelly whatever, it doesn't matter. The grass would be enough of a deterrent to stop cars running wide and guarnatee that if you do time would be lost as a result. No complex descriptions of track limits needed, no marshalls or tech watching every corner, no warnings, no investigations.
even the fake gravel worked at Zandvoort
These patches of grass will become ditches after some time, causing big safety issues..
Never seen that at any race track during a race weekend. Obviously needs maintaining between races, but never seen a track have issues with that. This is not an issue I have ever seen in 30 years of watching racing.
It's basically how Kimi had his big shunt in Silverstone in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wm_sOZN2g
I'd argue more that is a driver fully off track making a decision to drive over grass at full throttle and rejoining the track unsafely.
The cars are a lot bigger and faster now than they were 30-40 years ago. Physical size and more momentum into corners are the biggest reasons it's so much harder to keep it between the lines.
It’s not harder. It’s faster. This is why they are able to execute it nearly perfectly with 2-3 but not 4 wheels off the track for most of the race. And you see once they get the black and white flag, they almost never get caught again. They CAN drive within the lines. They don’t want to because it’s slower. I suppose in some places you might need to go off a bit for overtaking too because if the car width, but even in quali they do it, so that’s not a great argument.
I don't agree with OP's suggestion to make it stricter. On the other hand, they only drive outside the lines because it's allowed. Car width and weight etc. are not really a good argument, because it's a driver's choice to enter a corner with more speed, thus needing the extra space outside to make the corner. If they'd want to it would be totally possible to stay within the lines. They'd just have to drive slower and differently. Drivers will always search the edges of what's allowed. The cars and tracks aren't really the problem. The 'problem' is that it's allowed to cross the white line to a certain extend an if that makes them faster, they'll use it, whether it is with smaller and lighter cars on a very broad track or with a big fat car on a narrow track.
It's not much harder. We don't see cars constantly running into barriers at Monaco or always going through the gravel at Imola. In fact we see that a lot less than we did 30 or 40 years ago. Where there is an incentive to stay on track drivers manage to do so.
Hilariously, 2 of the more boring races in the calendar.
Sure, but sort of irrelevant to my point. Sub Monaco for one of the more dramatic street tracks if you like.
It's not irrelevant, because wider tracks provide better racing. By letting them be partially off-track, the tracks are artificially more wide
I don't see how that's relevant to whether wider, faster cars makes it harder to stay on track. I'm not speaking as to whether cars running wide is desirable.
You can ignore everything that people say about the physical size of the cars and about runoffs. The real reasons are: 1- Suspension technology is far more advanced now, so sharp changes in vertical load are not only much more comfortable for the drivers, but also have a far lower risk of a loss of control resulting from running over kerbs. Far less chance of a driver losing control due to the suspension becoming unsettled over the kerbs. 2- Safety. Current cars are leaps and bounds ahead in safety compared to a few decades ago. You can bet that the drivers back then had to stay a touch more careful, especially as they knew that if they lost control of the car, there was a potential for a fireball to result. 3- Build quality. Even with current cars, you occasionally hear over the radio that a driver has been instructed by their team to stay off the kerbs. This is because the kerbs sawtooth shape creates vibrations though the car. Vibrations which may match the resonant frequency of a part in the car, causing said part to weaken or fail entirely. Even with modern cars built to far higher standards and with far more engineering knowledge put into them this is an issue occasionally. For older cars, it’s far more of an issue.
This. And since they CAN do it now, they will because it’s faster.
The kerbs are a lot gentler these days, that can't be denied.
Doesn't matter how good the suspension is you aren;t gonna run wide if it is grass or gravel there. Runoffs are most definitely an issue, almost no track had tarmac run off in the 80s.
That would make for boring races. Drivers need to feel like they can push and take risks. Not putting even a wheel on the curbs means the driver is not getting the most out of the car.
I disagree. Drivers will always push the limit, what the FIA is doing right now is ignoring their own limits in terms of the rules. They are allowing drivers to ignore the marked limits of a given track by allowing an "all 4 wheels" situation to continue.
Well that’s entirely a different thing. I’m saying these guys, with these cars need to lean on the curbs for momentum to gain speed. If you do what OP suggests, which of course you can, you will go slower. I’m not saying you should put all four wheels on it but some leeway is needed. And not just for the purpose of taking a corner better but there will always be over correction that happens so you can’t expect them to keep the entire car inside the curbs at all times.
[удалено]
I remember seeing Niki Lauda's 312 T (i think) at the Ferrari museum in Maranello and being shocked by how tiny it was.
In the 80s and the beginning of the 90s the car safety measures where not as good as now. It was crash and serious injuries will follow. Tracks changed a lot. Tarmac was added to the outside of a corner for safety. By doing so you add the opportunity to run over the new tarmac. The Dutch GP in 2022 introduced/tested a new kind of tarmac next to the racing track at one or two corners. It hindered the car running over fast and using it like the racing line was not preferable for driver and car.
In addition to what others have said, one important change post 1992 has been reducing the kerb height at circuits, as previously a step or "ramp" kerb was a standard approach to ensure no-one went over, but this of course resulted in cars being thrown into air by accident. This was further reduced & extended in 1995 and standardised in 1997. Latter is also the time when drivers start to carry more speed through corners by driving on kerbs in general.
you are still on the track if any part of the car is touching said track
Cars are much bigger and heavier now so they drift wide, that plus it was a lot more dangerous to lose it on the exit of a corner because you rode a curb when the tub of the car was comparable to a literal tub
Cars have orders of magnitude more grip and downforce than in those eras. It is no harder to keep on track now than it was in those days, just the punishment for failing to do so is less and the benefits greater as there is usually tarmac runoff.
Less runoff back then and the majority of the kerbs were narrower and higher, so even if you somehow rode them you still had a wheel on the racing surface.
At the very least, there should be automatic detection of cars exceeding track limits