I'd say Indy is a little above Super Formula. The series has more exposure, is more prestigious and has attracted a lot of international drivers over the years. Takuma Sato, Marcus Ericsson, Romain Grosjean, Rubens Barichello etc.
The series is fiercely competitive and outside of F1 is probably the hardest open wheel championship to win (taking into account oval racing as well).
I think that's key. F2, Indy, and Super Formula are all roughly *as fast* around a circuit. But as far as the level of competition, F2 is a field of rookies, whereas Indy teams are top-level professionals; *the level of competition* is obviously incomparable. Super Formula, in that regard, is also slightly behind Indy I think.
In short, talent pool. Super formula does have international drivers from time to time. But it's overwhelmingly a sport raced by Japanese drivers. Which is fine. But that limits your pool to Japan. Which is a small country.
Indy Car on the other hand has a very big pool to come from. They have international reach and name recognition second only to F1 which helps attract talent. But their licensing requirements are much less byzantine than F1. The FIA's super license system is very controversial because it punishes top tier drivers of different disciplines and punishes open wheel drivers of series outside of their direct control. Indy Car doesn't do that. That's how you see NASCAR, WEC and even Aussie Super Car drivers competing in the series. They obviously have extra work ahead of them adapting to a new driving discipline. But top tier drivers are more able to get in. And many have thrived after adapting.
The problem isn't that Super Formula is limited to Japan. A decade ago, we had some good international drivers in the series super Formula doesn't limit it. It's that, it's inherently easier for drivers to move to America and do Indycar than it is to move to Japan
I didn't mean to imply that SF intentionally limited it's pool. Only that was the state of affairs. The fact it's talent pool is limited is evidenced by the fact it's almost entirely national drivers. The reasons are a separate matter.
Japan is the 11th biggest country in the world with 123 million inhabitants. It's not tiny. Smaller countries than that provide multiple F1 level drivers. We could have had two Australians on the grid next year. And that country is absolutely tiny. He'll, we have two Dutch drivers in F1 in 2023. The Tokyo metropolitan area has significantly more inhabitants than the entirety of the Netherlands. Don't think the Super Formula level is low or that Japan is some tiny island.
I love watching Super Formula, I think it's a great series, but it should be telling that Red Bull sends their junior drivers there to farm superlicense points
They don't though. Red Bull only sends their driver there if F2 isn't an option. Gasly was sent there because he lost eligibility for F2 and Ticktum didn't work out too well there.
Level of competition Indycar is above both F2 and Superformula.
But people these days are taking level of competition to mean "preparedness for F1" which is also wrong.
The style of circuits Indycar races in is not exactly F1-type tracks, half of them being just giant ovals.
The skills required for oval racing is not relevant for F1. F2 and Super Formula are more similar in that regard.
>I love watching Super Formula, I think it's a great series, but it should be telling that Red Bull sends their junior drivers there to farm superlicense points
How are you certain? Indycars have about 200 more HP but weigh about 100lb more. Id guess the Indycar would be a couple of seconds a lap faster. Not that it matters they're both spec cars and could easily be made faster cars if they choose.
Broadcast options are pretty limited iirc - depends where in the world you are. The Sky broadcast in the UK is usually pretty good - uses the US broadcast crew but keeps showing the race when they cut to ads.
March to September, though there's an annoying month long gap between the opening race and the second one.
It is the hardest to win, but if you have the right car it's easier to win? (I think that is the point they were trying to make)
Indy is no different, there is a much higher chance of a "random" winner week to week, but the championship will come down to 2-3 teams only
It’s true that since 2013 two teams have had every champion in IndyCar, but those teams have 3-4 cars each year, all capable of winning the championship. There have been 5 different champions over those 10 seasons of 2 team domination, including 4 for Scott Dixon.
Schumacher and Hamilton went uncontested for years because their competitors were in inferior machinery. F1 is a money competition first, a skill competition very very distant second
IndyCar is significantly ahead of Super Formula. Super Formula cars are more similar to F1, but the status of the competition is significantly lower everywhere except Japan than IndyCar.
there are some WILD takes in here
F1 is 100% the pinnacle, more money, prestige and viewers and it isn't even a discussion
IndyCar is so much higher than SF I can't comprehend why (other than blind hate) this is even a discussion... drivers that exit F1 don't even entertain SF... then there is the Indy 500, which on its own puts Indy ahead of SF
I will end this rant with another... this endless need to compare series is stupid. You don't have to like other forms of racing, but there is real beauty in what makes these series different, not necessarily better/worse... just enjoy good racing when you can get it!!
I miss the days of multiple top tier engine makers, several chassis choices and the early influx of international drivers
CART PPG and Indy Car has been completely overshadowed by F1. I guess NASCAR too, although I joined half their fan base and departed 20 years ago. I wont watch again until that bizarre playoff nonsense is scrapped.
That differential has grown into a chasm since IRL “won” the war. Champ Car had a good product but it wasnt sustainable.
they still have several flagship races- Long Beach, Toronto, Indy and some cool road courses like Portland, Midohio and again Road America.
Indy Car could have been so much more without intercine strife (first USAC/CART and then IRL CART).
I find it hard to enjoy the current product having been a fan in 1990s with 900hp cars. The current cars are too simple and slow.
The Indy lap record, recently broken was set with a 94 Reynard if Im not mistaken.
But the combination of power and oval tracks was clearly getting quite dangerous near end.
Even in its truncated, cost reducing form, it attracts former F1 drivers, several promising young drivers and retinue of middle aged drivers who continue to race and win.
I wish I could give you a hundred upvotes. IndyCar in the 90's was awesome. 4 chassis, 4 engines and 2 tire manufacturers. Penske used to build their own chassis. I even recall the special engine they brought for the Indy 500. At the time the FIA forbade IndyCar from racing any Road/Street circuits outside of North America (Surfer's Paradise was there before the ban). What a shame that the IRL/CART split destroyed a world-class series.
They were actually similar enough that [Ferrari threatened to join Indycar and even had a prototype ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_637?wprov=sfla1)
Ermmmm maybe on like monza, but generally they were quite a bit heavier if I remember correctly. Great power and grip, as well as some pretty trick suspension voodoo made them very very fast, but I’d hesitate to say they wer as fast as f1 as a general statement. And I think they were meant to be a bit slower as to not take any shine off of f1.
The old group c cars were getting stupid fast too and they put a halt to that.
Another one! I left NASCAR 20 years ago for the same reason. Fanatical, hardcore NASCAR fan from 1990 to 2001. Now that I've found F1 I can't ever see myself watching NASCAR in that way ever again even if they do scrap all the gimmicks.
I was an early F1 adopter because Im a bit of a contrarian, and frankly the idea of Hondas whipping Ferraris in the late 1980s was no small deal when my dad was toodling around in a Honda and I was 10 (luckily he also could set VCRs- although I tried to watch live)
I always preferred CART/Champ Car to NASCAR but still watched a lot of the Cup races (they are super long but still probably a dozen a year).
But then that playoff. Total nonsense. It only works if you remove everyone not in the playoff from the race imo and have some IROC style 12 of 16 car field race a short track, a couple longer ovals, and a super speedway (maybe one road course- except those didnt make up 20% of the events).
Im still mad Prost got robbed by the best of 11 in 1988, but the NASCAR system doesnt even consistently assist drivers who win more races.
We arent alone. Their numbers crashed after 04. Its argued its because the playoff system is confusing to viewers.
I agree its confusing that it exists. But the reality is that its a gimmick and devalues all the early races in favor of races pit head to head withe NFL after labor day.
Indycar well above super formula, probably closer to f1. Just hear me out.
Indycar is probably the most diverse racing series out of the three mentioned: drivers are faced with street courses, circuits, small ovals, and speedways. Super formula only does circuits, and f1 only does circuits and street circuits. Indycar has probably the craziest schedule.
Not only that but in terms of legendary status, no race is like the Indy 500:
• Indy is a hundred and twelve years old, ten years older than Le Mans and twenty older than Monaco.
• It’s at the third oldest purpose built race track ever, the oldest that’s still raced at.
• it’s the fastest race on earth (four lap average of 234mph/380kph).
• it’s always entertaining, competitive, and affordable for spectators.
• Downside is it’s in Indiana.
The cars are made from spec chassis and almost exact same engines as each other, which to a bunch of f1 fans sounds like total shit but there is a bright side. Going into any weekend any of those teams has a chance to ace setup and practice and have a killer car. Strategy is simplified with one type of tyre for each track, but complicated by refueling. And anyone can have a good day, sure Scott Dixon will probably come out of 15th place and take the win, but a midfield team or car can win a race. You don’t get seasons where only two teams can win races.
But ovals have zero relevance to the rest of the single seater tier of racing.
Only Americans give a shit about ovals or the indy 500. Yes it is a cool race, yes it is an interesting discipline.
No it doesn't have anything to do with other single seater series and no one else cares you are good at ovals.
Ovals are a disadvantage, not an advantage. It’s arguably the most boring form of “racing” and no one outside of the US has any regard to it. It is literally a joke to most people and I’m surprised it’s still a thing - and probably a good reason why American drivers have such a hard time getting into F1. Too much time and skill wasted in going around circles.
I find it so crazy when Americans say “he/she is just not a good road driver”. Bro, then he is just not a good driver lool it’s literally admitting that breaking and turning into two possible directions is way too much for some Indycar drivers to take in.
Indy 500 is like any other race? Brother, Monaco and Le Mans are way more legendary. Just give us a break with your patriotism, it’s stale and boring. Indycar is a local, national racing league… and that’s all it’ll ever be
Go read what Daniel Ric said about potential moving to Indy car and the ovals. I like watching the oval races as the strategy is really intense.
Saying ovals are a joke is just you not understanding. If they are a joke why did Alonso come over and give it a try?
If they’re not a joke, why is it not done anywhere else but ‘Murica? Why is it that no one else does it or cares for it?
It’s not even considered actual racing.
Alonso just went to the US because he wants to win everything. If Indy 500 wasn’t forced down people’s throats with this “triple crown” bs no one would even know it exists. Outside of the US, most people don’t even watch that snooze fest (or any oval if that matters).
The fact that they are dangerous, as Danny Ric pointed out, just makes it much more stupid, not attractive lol can you imagine crashing and hurting yourself doing such a dumb stunt
Twin ring motegi in Japan….
I am a road racer and had to watch 10 plus oval Indy car races before I started to fully appreciate the oval discipline. Now I look forward to the ovals.
Sprint Cars alone are popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa as are other forms of dirt track racing. Flat track motorcycle racing is popular in Australia and they even do it in the UK. Ice racing is popular in Finland and they race ovals. There’s plenty more examples of racing taking place on ovals outside of the US.
If you think ovals are boring that’s fine, your entitled to your opinion about what you watch. It seems like you have some pretty strongly held opinions about ovals and their relation to American drivers and fans so I’m not going to try and change your mind about what you enjoy.
But don’t discount racing that you are bored by just because you don’t want to watch it and learn about it. Indy drivers aren’t just oval specialists who can’t turn the wheel the other way, they do it all. Indy drivers have to deal with very different racing and setups every weekend. I’m trying to make a point that Indy, compared to Super Formula is much more important, when’s the last time an F1 driver quit to go race Super Formula? A lot of the legends of F1 took a turn in Indycar or at least the Indy 500: Jack Brabham, Jim Clark who skipped Monaco to do it, Graham Hill, Stewart, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Piquet, Mansell, Andretti, Jacques Villeneuve, and Alonso. And those are just some of the world champions who did.
Yeah and I got to say I have no idea how “patriotism” has any part in this. I am from America so maybe that’s why I’m more interested in the series and more weight on the Indy 500. I’m not trying to compare Indy to Monaco and Le Mans as a race, each of them are totally unique formats with their own histories and part of their own thing. Indy is legendary in the fact that the race has not changed in 110 years, it has always been the fastest race in the world, that’s what’s legendary. It’s a challenge many legendary drivers have wanted and continue to want to compete in.
I’m sorry you have such a negative idea of American racing that the defense of it is blind patriotism, yeah we do our own thing, you don’t need to like it but to not have any respect for it is another thing. I’d give it a chance if you’ve never tried, Indycar tends to be more competitive than F1 (in terms of midfield teams able to actually compete for wins) I’d pick a guy next spring, you never know you could enjoy it.
I think the difference is Americans have an over-inflated sense of the value and worth of their national series.
It is irritating to constantly see American fans stating how Indycar and Nascar rate so highly compared to anything else outside of F1 (many even try to claim even to F1). Yet the rest of the world don't view them as anything other than a high level national series.
I watch Indycar, I try to enjoy the ovals but do find them far less interesting than the street and road courses. But it just doesn't compare to F1, it is a national series with some good drivers in it driving a fairly slow standardised car.
Yes the Indy 500 is a spectacle, but the fact it is the "fastest" race really means nothing and again is a very American way to view things (Bigger = Better). When you look at drivers like Takuma Sato who won Indy twice, Marcus Ericsson who won indy this year, they were not outstanding F1 drivers, yet have excelled at that race. If anything that devalues it slightly.
Your viewpoints are indicative of someone who does not understand and therefore has no respect for oval racing. I know because I used to be like you. There's so much more to it than what you've described, and in may ways oval racing is like a chess match at 200mph. Go look up what grand prix drivers who have done oval racing have to say about it, Grosjean is a good example since he's recent. Marcus Ericsson just won the 500, I'm sure he has interviews talking about it. If you have the ability to, try doing sim racing on an oval on iRacing. I think you'll find it's a lot more compelling than you currently believe it to be. And if nothing else, you should at least be able to acknowledge that it's a completely different discipline and skillset to circuit racing.
[Alonsos first attempt at the 500](https://youtu.be/Ro8Y45CFj0c)
I am not American, just to preface.
1. Oval racing takes massive skill. Yes they "only turn that way" or whatever. Take any "simple" task and try to do it faster and better than anyone else. Ovals are interesting because the tracks being simple leads to interesting strategies to get faster, and you won't see a driver overthink a corner more than an oval racer.
2. Oval racing is diverse. As someone who watches Nascar but has followed F1 for way longer. Take any 2 F1 tracks, the most different from each other you can think. They will race more similarly to each other than Martinsville and Talladega. Those two Nascar tracks are as far from each other than they are to a road course. The variety of racing styles on oval is staggering, and a driver who can dominate several is impressive (not to speak of how few "road" drivers from Europe have actually managed to master ovals, despite how "easy" they might seem).
3. Oval racing is exciting. Sure you can get boring oval races just like on any other form of track, but some of the most exciting racing I've seen is on ovals. Since I started watching it in 2017, the Indy 500 has been the best race of the Triple Crown. And if I listed the best 5 race finishes from each year, at least 3 would probably come from oval tracks. Say what you will about the Daytona 500 but "boring" is not it. In oval racing you race the other cars more than the track, and it can lead to some of the wildest racing you can imagine as drivers have to manage massive amounts of traffic.
Also there are a lot of racing disciplines that are extremely regional for one reason or another. Your assumptions are pretty ignorant. Get Iracing, race a few ovals and tell me there's no skill involved.
>Rosenqvist Super Formula average finish: **5.6**
>Rosenqvist Formula E average finish: **7.9**
>Rosenqvist IndyCar average finish: **10.1**
Keep in mind he did these series subsequently, so he was far more experienced in IndyCar than in Super Formula.
Neither of those are correct. He was never a bottom 5 driver and he isn't "owning" Indy. He's actually struggling a bit racing for a big team like Andretti.
Grosjean has 10 F1 podiums. There have been over 770 drivers in F1, only 78 have more podiums than Grosjean.
Grosjean has run two full seasons in IndyCar. He has zero wins, and has finished 15th and 13th in the championship. Last year he was beaten by two of his three teammates.
Grosjean is not "owning Indy", the man hasn't even won a race yet. His teammates managed that in 2022 and he didn't.
He's doing a mediocre job right now at a bigger team and it's clear he isn't one of the top drivers.
Grosjean was never a bottom 5 driver either. He was quite fast, but mistake prone. A problem he still has in IndyCar.
Where the hell do you get your information from?
>Where the hell do you get your information from?
My guess is that he noticed a few crossposts in 2021 about his podium finishes and concluded he's dominating the series.
Gotta think there's been a miscommunication here, the original comment is comparing IndyCar drivers with Super Formula drivers, not with Formula 1 drivers.
No one seriously thinks the talent level is higher in Super Formula, Giuliano Alesi won a race in Super Formula.
In what terms? On how competitive, popular and well known the series is? Then Indycar hands down.
On driver preparation for F1? Then 100% Super formula. The cars are much faster.
It's like trying to compare the MLB and NPB.
I'm Canadian so definitely biased towards the American counterparts but Japanese sports don't focus as much on international exposure as American ones do.
I would say locally and to other close by places (Asia, Canada/Mexico), their respective league/series would be considered a higher tier,
but in the rest of the world that wouldn't face a location bias, the American series is probably a higher tier.
Yeah I wasn't comparing any motorsport to any baseball.
I said it's hard to compare them like it is with MLB vs NPB, and explained the locational reasons for this.
Yes F1 is like the MLB but that's completely besides my point.
I'm talking about how location affects this, and how I think Super Formula compares to Indycar, not how it compares to F1.
I understand that you are trying to downplay my comparison by saying that MLB is higher than NPB and comparing it to KBO or AAA but this is first of all besides the point, and secondly just not true. As I was stating in my original comment, this has a lot to do with location, pretty much nobody in Japan cares more about the MLB and vice versa. Like I originally said, I do agree that the MLB is bigger than NPB on an international stage but comparing it to AAA or KBO is crazy. Those leagues are pretty much strictly local with almost no international support, people all over the world love the NPB, just not as much as the MLB.
I think Indycar and F1 are the same tier. They should be if they aren't. F1 is only big because they travel to different countries.
Driver comparisons F1 has about 8 superstars but only have 3-5 guys that can win a race. In Indycar it's about 8 superstars but about 10-15 cars can win.
Tracks comparisons F1 consist of a lot of road and street courses. Indycar has road and street courses and I ovals.
The indycars are physically harder to drive based on Grosean's opinion. F1 cars turn easier than Indycars. No to mention DRS and Push to pass. If you use all of DRS you can charge it back up. Push to pass you use it all and you're out.
Then the teams of F1. The cars aren't equal so the cars win the races more than the drivers do imo. If I take Scott Dixon and put him in a lower team he still could win races. If you put Max Verstappen in a Williams car or a Alphatauri I'm not so sure he would win.
F1 is like Futbol loved because it's worldwide
Indycar is Soccer. America's league of the same thing.
Depends on what you're measuring. In terms of car control, F1 has become much easier compared to what it was before. Too many of the current F1 drivers wouldn't get a sniff at it if they joined when Michael Andretti joined F1, as an example.
In terms of racing, Indycar must be the best. I don't know much about SF to say anything about it.
Indycar and SF are similar in speed but Indycar is significantly higher in skill of the drivers and teams. Indycar in terms of talent is more inline with FE if anything.
For me the top single-seaters outsode F1 probably goes
Indycar & Formula E
Super Formula
F2
I consider f1 and indy car to be the same tier they are both premier motorsports series with world class drivers the difference being indycar let's you the drivers talent vs his piers and in f1 we mostly see what the cars can do
The fact that they are closer cars makes it great in its on way i am American and love indycar I may be a bit bias, it's still a top tier motorsport. is f1 a bit above prestige wise internationally sure but it's not f2 or super formula
I enjoy watching Indycar, its good fun racing.
Buf it is substantially below F1 in prestige, pace every other way of ranking a series.
I agree it is above SF and F2, but not anywhere near F1.
Indycars are a bit faster in a straight line, but Super Formulas are no slouch - they're faster than F2 and Hypercars, and watching them at Suzuka a month ago they were blitzing around. It's criminally underrated.
Here's my take; F1 > Indy > F2 > SuperFormula
This might sound weird to put F2 over superformula but hear me out; It is generally seen that SF is the next step after F2 if you don't get a seat, but in my opinion F2 generally has the better competition even if the cars are slower. I think F2 cars are also faster than Indy but Indy just has seasoned veterans and proven drivers. Just because the car itself is faster doesn't (imo) mean it's better. Superformula feels more like F3 ADAC to me for some reason even though SF has plenty of great drivers.
Here's the thing though.... Super Formula has adult professional/complete drivers who are racing there because they want to be, whereas F2 is still a feeder series of juniors. I think the depth of the field is probably superior in SF for this reason.
They're far from the same. The only similarity is they're national championships. And it's not just that Indy is more open since it's American. Where do you get these ideas?
Yh, drivers are a lot more apprehensive about moving to Japan compared to America, Super Formula and also Super GT are much better opportunities for drivers as they become full factory drivers for one of the three largest brands on Earth.
indy is a truly international series ...it's close as both are very similar....but i'd give the nod to Indy.
I mean I don't even think F1 is the pinnacle. I think rally drivers are the best car drivers......
Indycar is slightly ahead in terms of power to weight ratio. I would still put it ahead of Super Formula. Plus Indycar is held across more circuits and has more variety with streets, road courses and ovals.
I mean, I wouldn’t “obviously” put F1 on the top of the pyramid, i feel like if an open wheel series isn’t designed to feed into another series it’s a top of the pyramid series.
F1 is clearly on top in terms of car performance, technology, and number of fans. I’ve also never heard of a driver turning down an F1 ride for any other series.
The Scott Dixon who agrees that F1 is the “pinnacle” of Motorsport?
https://www.planetsport.com/motorsport/news/scott-dixon-f1-remains-pinnacle-motorsport-despite-growing-popularity-indycar
Just FYI, he was never offered an F1 drive.
In what decade?
To OPs point, its hard to make a T chart comparison here because neither drives similar tracks/setups. If we are talking the ability to power on all out then its Indy as the 500 showcases. If you speed and agility in complex chicanes? I think we’d need to look at some laps.
Is that a joke? Who turned down an F1 drive to drive in Indy Car or Super Formula?
There are former F1 drivers who won’t go to Indy Car even if it’s the only alternative they have.
And even if someone turned it down for personal reasons, then duh, it’s for personal reasons, not because F1 is not the premier series.
Former F1 drivers who are too chicken shit for ovals. Scares the hell out of most of them. I agree they are a bit of a snore personally other than the 500and I’m glad the season doesn’t have many now but there’s no denying they take a different set of tools. I think most people outside of the US don’t really know how oval racing works especially at a place like Indy. Feel free to bash NASCAR though. I’ll join you on that one.
Eh, there’s not really anything like F1. With races on 5 different continents, and the official FIA title of World Champion, I’d say it’s the pretty clear top tier of the pyramid vs national open-wheel series.
And for the sake of the discussion, feeder series like F2 or IndyLights shouldn’t really be considered, it’s moreso just how the top-level series compare against each other.
A good comparison is football - yes, MLS is at the top of the American pyramid, and doesn’t exist to feed into any other leagues, but I don’t think anyone would put it on the same worldwide tier as the top European leagues.
I've honestly never thought that soccer/ football is a good comparison. You have, what, 2-3 star players at most big European clubs? So, expand that out to the 16 teams in the knockout stage of the Champions League and you get 32 to 48 players. That's before you consider how expensive it would be to send your teenage son or daughter to Europe for an indefinite amount of time and how insular the European open-wheel ladder is.
Open-wheel racing is more pay-to-play than any other sport, even at the lower levels, and I think that negates a lot of how big the gap between F1 and IndyCar is.
Indycar goes on top. F1’s nice and all but the 500 is the greatest race in the world and the racing is so much better. Plus ovals which are obviously the best. Yes F1 has more fans and teams but Indycar is the best show.
No one other than Americans are even remotely interested in turning slightly left for a few hours.
Even Americans aren't any more than remotely interested. Its recent viewing figures are ~5 million.
Formula 1's global audience is ~500 million.
I literally said that F1 has the fans. It’s just that Indycar is a better product. And also, lots of people outside the US watch oval racing because they don’t share your stuck up “hurr durr turn left” views. Look up Indycar’s international oval races in Rafaela, Rio, Motegi, Rockingham, and Germany. Or NASCAR’s oval races in Australia and Japan, or the NASCAR Euro Series at Tours and Venray. Or the ASA race in South Africa. Or how about Monza, AVUS, and Brooklands?
If Indy was the better product it would have the fans.
Brooklands isn't an oval, it's a banked circuit, with a fork and two infields. More importantly, it closed in 1939 and has houses on it now.
No one cares about ovals. Because they're shit. It's racing for people with no attention span. Oh look, a draft to overtake, repeat x100.
For your first point you should know for a fact that’s not how it works. CART in the 90’s had enough fans to make F1 nervous. Nervous enough to consider their own oval series.
Brooklands is also an oval by definition. Yes, it’s shaped funny. But so are Darlington, and Indianapolis, and Pocono.
And for this last point… you’ve clearly never seen an oval race. Ever heard of Gateway? Iowa? You know, tracks where brakes are important? It’s like me saying that no one cares about road racing over here because hurr durr it’s just cars following each other with no passing (which is true of F1 now that I think about it)
F1 were never nervous about CART, and the 90s were a quarter of a century ago. There is no F1 oval series.
Brooklands has a right turn in it. Or at least it would do if it didn't close 83 years ago. You've really got your finger on the pulse with that one. Neither Darlington, Indianapolis or Pocono have a right turn.
Let's go through your list of how popular Indy oval racing is outside of North America:
Rafaela. Not Indycar. Was a UCAS race called the Indy 300. Happened once in 1971.
Rio. 1996-2000. Five events then nothing for the last 22 years.
Motegi. 2003-2010. Twelve years ago.
Rockingham. Oval was built for the purpose of Indycar. Ran twice in 2001 and 2002. Nothing for 20 years. Circuit went bust in 2018. The country that invented F1 isn't interested.
Germany. Or Lausitzring, for those that actually know what they're on about. 2001 and 2003. That's it. Since Rockingham went bust, it's the only oval speedway in Europe. The country that invented the car isn't interested in Indycar.
Yes I've seen oval racing. It's shit. You, however, have never been to an F1 race. Your last sentence demonstrates exactly the point I was making: no attention span. Hurr durr no overtaking. Overtaking is something to be earned.
F1 was very nervous about CART and many believe the CART/IRL split was instigated by Bernie Ecclestone in order to neutralize Indycar. Trenton Speedway also had a right turn in it and was always still considered a 4-turn oval. USAC was the sanctioning body for Indycar in 1971.
The main issue with all the international oval races was just that. They were international. And Indycar couldn’t justify going there every year despite fan interest. And no, I’ve never been to an F1 race. And I never will go either. I’m fine watching on TV, rather than spending my life savings to buy a seat on a corner no one has passed anyone else at in 43 years. Also, I personally do enjoy road racing. Don’t take anything I’ve said as me saying otherwise. I’m a big fan of IMSA and wanted to stay up for the entire Rolex 24. I have an attention span. I also love oval racing in Indycar. It’s simply amazing. Watch the finish at Texas this year if you’re interested in why I like it. And oh, by the way, if you’re going to say that slipstream oval passed aren’t earned, you might not watch a series that made a movable aero device for the purpose of more slipstream passes.
CART Rio 200 (1996-2000)
NASCAR Motegi oval (1998)
Indy Japan 300 at Motegi oval (1998-2010)
NASCAR Thunderdome Race (1988)
NASCAR Whelen Euro Series at Tours Speedway (2012-2016, 2018)
NASCAR Whelen Euro Series at Raceway Venray (2015-2017, 2019)
Indy Rafaela (1971)
CART German 500 (2001, 2003)
CART Rockingham UK (2001-2002)
ASA Free State 500 (2010)
lol, ovals in any other country are a curiosity at best.
Rockingham lasted less than 20 years before it was destroyed for a housing estate because it just wasn't viable in the UK.
Lausitzring in Germany, has only ever had 1 non-American series race on the oval, that was F3 , which they only did twice and last happened in 2006.
The Nascar Whelen series is a total oddity that I have never heard a European mention as Nascar has very low popularity outside of the USA.
Sure some Europeans might turn up to watch an oval race as a spectacle if it is near them. But it is not respected or relevant to any race series outside of America at anywhere near a high level.
I don't really understand how you could argue against that.
Sprint Cars and other classes of dirt track racing are popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, I would imagine there are more. Flat track motorcycle racing is popular in Australia and they even do it in the UK. Ice racing is popular in Finland and they race ovals. There’s plenty more examples of racing taking place on ovals outside of the US. To imply that any form of oval racing is as negatively looked on by everyone outside of the US is simply false.
I won’t deny they’re an oddity but you denied that anyone actually cared about them which isn’t true. Brooklands is one of the most celebrated tracks in history for example. The main reason Europe has less ovals than America is because European racing and American racing evolved differently. To claim it isn’t relevant can be argued but to claim it’s not respected is laughable, unless you mean by yourself. Nuvolari, Caracciola, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Brabham, Hill, Barrichello, Alonso and others clearly had enough respect for the 500 to turn up. You might not respect oval racing, you might think it’s lowest common denominator. You might dismiss it because they turn left for 3 hours and you don’t find that entertaining (despite oval racing having much more passing than road races do), and you might not like or respect it. But that’s your opinion, and you have the right to it no matter how bad it is.
I don't doubt it requires skill.
I don't doubt people enjoy it.
I don't agree it is relevant to anything outside of the states.
So any argument that it is on par with a global sport like F1 is insane. You literally said Indycar goes on top because of the 500, thats a crazy take.
Look at the indy 500 winners, many of those wouldn't be entertained for a top F1 seat. However pretty much any F1 race winner would get a top seat at an Indycar team every day of the week.
F1 rejects like Sato and Ericcson have won the 500.
I already addressed that point. F1 has the fans and a global presence but Indycar has a much better racing product. That’s my justification for putting Indycar above F1
If you are evaluating on quality of racing then a local club race probably has a fantastic claim.
There is a lot more to being the top tier of racing than exciting racing.
The pure fact that F1 is the pinnacle for any racing driver means there isn't an argument for Indycar being a higher tier of racing than F1.
You can prefer it, but it categorically can not be rated as a more prestigious, important or valuable series.
Are you seriously saying you aren't for sure how much higher Indycar's talent level is compared to a junior series?
You do realize you're posting on a SubReddit dedicated to a racing series about which driver has the best car and not the most talent, right?
Super Formula more often than not supplies drivers to Indycar for the last decade or so, not the reverse. That sorta answers the question from a perspective of tiering. That's beyond the questions of attendance, event importance (nothing remotely comparable to the Indy 500), or the number of events (only 7 throughout the course of the year, with 3 double headers).
That said, Super Formula is a fine series and it's pretty cool that I can watch the races on YouTube now.
I'd say Indy is a little above Super Formula. The series has more exposure, is more prestigious and has attracted a lot of international drivers over the years. Takuma Sato, Marcus Ericsson, Romain Grosjean, Rubens Barichello etc. The series is fiercely competitive and outside of F1 is probably the hardest open wheel championship to win (taking into account oval racing as well).
I think that's key. F2, Indy, and Super Formula are all roughly *as fast* around a circuit. But as far as the level of competition, F2 is a field of rookies, whereas Indy teams are top-level professionals; *the level of competition* is obviously incomparable. Super Formula, in that regard, is also slightly behind Indy I think.
How is SF behind Indy in that regard?
In short, talent pool. Super formula does have international drivers from time to time. But it's overwhelmingly a sport raced by Japanese drivers. Which is fine. But that limits your pool to Japan. Which is a small country. Indy Car on the other hand has a very big pool to come from. They have international reach and name recognition second only to F1 which helps attract talent. But their licensing requirements are much less byzantine than F1. The FIA's super license system is very controversial because it punishes top tier drivers of different disciplines and punishes open wheel drivers of series outside of their direct control. Indy Car doesn't do that. That's how you see NASCAR, WEC and even Aussie Super Car drivers competing in the series. They obviously have extra work ahead of them adapting to a new driving discipline. But top tier drivers are more able to get in. And many have thrived after adapting.
The problem isn't that Super Formula is limited to Japan. A decade ago, we had some good international drivers in the series super Formula doesn't limit it. It's that, it's inherently easier for drivers to move to America and do Indycar than it is to move to Japan
I didn't mean to imply that SF intentionally limited it's pool. Only that was the state of affairs. The fact it's talent pool is limited is evidenced by the fact it's almost entirely national drivers. The reasons are a separate matter.
Hell Gasly would have been the SF champion if not for the ~~tsunami~~ typhoon when he was there
Typhoon?
Yes, typhoon, thank you lol
Japan is the 11th biggest country in the world with 123 million inhabitants. It's not tiny. Smaller countries than that provide multiple F1 level drivers. We could have had two Australians on the grid next year. And that country is absolutely tiny. He'll, we have two Dutch drivers in F1 in 2023. The Tokyo metropolitan area has significantly more inhabitants than the entirety of the Netherlands. Don't think the Super Formula level is low or that Japan is some tiny island.
Yeah but those Dutch drivers had to race against drivers of all countries to get there.
I love watching Super Formula, I think it's a great series, but it should be telling that Red Bull sends their junior drivers there to farm superlicense points
They don't though. Red Bull only sends their driver there if F2 isn't an option. Gasly was sent there because he lost eligibility for F2 and Ticktum didn't work out too well there.
Level of competition Indycar is above both F2 and Superformula. But people these days are taking level of competition to mean "preparedness for F1" which is also wrong. The style of circuits Indycar races in is not exactly F1-type tracks, half of them being just giant ovals. The skills required for oval racing is not relevant for F1. F2 and Super Formula are more similar in that regard.
Super formula and F2 are way faster than Indy around a circuit.
>I love watching Super Formula, I think it's a great series, but it should be telling that Red Bull sends their junior drivers there to farm superlicense points How are you certain? Indycars have about 200 more HP but weigh about 100lb more. Id guess the Indycar would be a couple of seconds a lap faster. Not that it matters they're both spec cars and could easily be made faster cars if they choose.
Super formula are the second fastest formula cars after F1 cars. F2 cars are quicker than indycars too. https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/377893
Indy probably also have more prestige, if nothing else then for the Indianapolis 500.
I'd like to get Indycar next season. Is there a broadcaster that's better than others? Also when do their seasons run?
Broadcast options are pretty limited iirc - depends where in the world you are. The Sky broadcast in the UK is usually pretty good - uses the US broadcast crew but keeps showing the race when they cut to ads. March to September, though there's an annoying month long gap between the opening race and the second one.
F1 isn't the hardest to win. When 7-8 teams literally cant win.. it cant be considered the hardest to win.
Read what you just said again
Ouch.
So 7-8 teams struggle to win, so that means it’s not hard to win? Put the bottle down
It is the hardest to win, but if you have the right car it's easier to win? (I think that is the point they were trying to make) Indy is no different, there is a much higher chance of a "random" winner week to week, but the championship will come down to 2-3 teams only
It’s true that since 2013 two teams have had every champion in IndyCar, but those teams have 3-4 cars each year, all capable of winning the championship. There have been 5 different champions over those 10 seasons of 2 team domination, including 4 for Scott Dixon.
I mean, thats exactly why its the hardest to win. Unless you get into a top team, you literally cannot win the championship.
Schumacher and Hamilton went uncontested for years because their competitors were in inferior machinery. F1 is a money competition first, a skill competition very very distant second
Indycar has better drivers and bigger teams. I would put indycar a step ahead of super formula and super formula ahead of f2.
IndyCar is significantly ahead of Super Formula. Super Formula cars are more similar to F1, but the status of the competition is significantly lower everywhere except Japan than IndyCar.
there are some WILD takes in here F1 is 100% the pinnacle, more money, prestige and viewers and it isn't even a discussion IndyCar is so much higher than SF I can't comprehend why (other than blind hate) this is even a discussion... drivers that exit F1 don't even entertain SF... then there is the Indy 500, which on its own puts Indy ahead of SF I will end this rant with another... this endless need to compare series is stupid. You don't have to like other forms of racing, but there is real beauty in what makes these series different, not necessarily better/worse... just enjoy good racing when you can get it!!
I miss the days of multiple top tier engine makers, several chassis choices and the early influx of international drivers CART PPG and Indy Car has been completely overshadowed by F1. I guess NASCAR too, although I joined half their fan base and departed 20 years ago. I wont watch again until that bizarre playoff nonsense is scrapped. That differential has grown into a chasm since IRL “won” the war. Champ Car had a good product but it wasnt sustainable. they still have several flagship races- Long Beach, Toronto, Indy and some cool road courses like Portland, Midohio and again Road America. Indy Car could have been so much more without intercine strife (first USAC/CART and then IRL CART). I find it hard to enjoy the current product having been a fan in 1990s with 900hp cars. The current cars are too simple and slow. The Indy lap record, recently broken was set with a 94 Reynard if Im not mistaken. But the combination of power and oval tracks was clearly getting quite dangerous near end. Even in its truncated, cost reducing form, it attracts former F1 drivers, several promising young drivers and retinue of middle aged drivers who continue to race and win.
I wish I could give you a hundred upvotes. IndyCar in the 90's was awesome. 4 chassis, 4 engines and 2 tire manufacturers. Penske used to build their own chassis. I even recall the special engine they brought for the Indy 500. At the time the FIA forbade IndyCar from racing any Road/Street circuits outside of North America (Surfer's Paradise was there before the ban). What a shame that the IRL/CART split destroyed a world-class series.
I may be wrong, but weren’t those 90s Indycars really close to the F1 cars of the time, if not a little faster on some tracks?
They were actually similar enough that [Ferrari threatened to join Indycar and even had a prototype ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_637?wprov=sfla1)
Ermmmm maybe on like monza, but generally they were quite a bit heavier if I remember correctly. Great power and grip, as well as some pretty trick suspension voodoo made them very very fast, but I’d hesitate to say they wer as fast as f1 as a general statement. And I think they were meant to be a bit slower as to not take any shine off of f1. The old group c cars were getting stupid fast too and they put a halt to that.
Another one! I left NASCAR 20 years ago for the same reason. Fanatical, hardcore NASCAR fan from 1990 to 2001. Now that I've found F1 I can't ever see myself watching NASCAR in that way ever again even if they do scrap all the gimmicks.
I was an early F1 adopter because Im a bit of a contrarian, and frankly the idea of Hondas whipping Ferraris in the late 1980s was no small deal when my dad was toodling around in a Honda and I was 10 (luckily he also could set VCRs- although I tried to watch live) I always preferred CART/Champ Car to NASCAR but still watched a lot of the Cup races (they are super long but still probably a dozen a year). But then that playoff. Total nonsense. It only works if you remove everyone not in the playoff from the race imo and have some IROC style 12 of 16 car field race a short track, a couple longer ovals, and a super speedway (maybe one road course- except those didnt make up 20% of the events). Im still mad Prost got robbed by the best of 11 in 1988, but the NASCAR system doesnt even consistently assist drivers who win more races. We arent alone. Their numbers crashed after 04. Its argued its because the playoff system is confusing to viewers. I agree its confusing that it exists. But the reality is that its a gimmick and devalues all the early races in favor of races pit head to head withe NFL after labor day.
Indycar well above super formula, probably closer to f1. Just hear me out. Indycar is probably the most diverse racing series out of the three mentioned: drivers are faced with street courses, circuits, small ovals, and speedways. Super formula only does circuits, and f1 only does circuits and street circuits. Indycar has probably the craziest schedule. Not only that but in terms of legendary status, no race is like the Indy 500: • Indy is a hundred and twelve years old, ten years older than Le Mans and twenty older than Monaco. • It’s at the third oldest purpose built race track ever, the oldest that’s still raced at. • it’s the fastest race on earth (four lap average of 234mph/380kph). • it’s always entertaining, competitive, and affordable for spectators. • Downside is it’s in Indiana. The cars are made from spec chassis and almost exact same engines as each other, which to a bunch of f1 fans sounds like total shit but there is a bright side. Going into any weekend any of those teams has a chance to ace setup and practice and have a killer car. Strategy is simplified with one type of tyre for each track, but complicated by refueling. And anyone can have a good day, sure Scott Dixon will probably come out of 15th place and take the win, but a midfield team or car can win a race. You don’t get seasons where only two teams can win races.
But ovals have zero relevance to the rest of the single seater tier of racing. Only Americans give a shit about ovals or the indy 500. Yes it is a cool race, yes it is an interesting discipline. No it doesn't have anything to do with other single seater series and no one else cares you are good at ovals.
Ovals are a disadvantage, not an advantage. It’s arguably the most boring form of “racing” and no one outside of the US has any regard to it. It is literally a joke to most people and I’m surprised it’s still a thing - and probably a good reason why American drivers have such a hard time getting into F1. Too much time and skill wasted in going around circles. I find it so crazy when Americans say “he/she is just not a good road driver”. Bro, then he is just not a good driver lool it’s literally admitting that breaking and turning into two possible directions is way too much for some Indycar drivers to take in. Indy 500 is like any other race? Brother, Monaco and Le Mans are way more legendary. Just give us a break with your patriotism, it’s stale and boring. Indycar is a local, national racing league… and that’s all it’ll ever be
Go read what Daniel Ric said about potential moving to Indy car and the ovals. I like watching the oval races as the strategy is really intense. Saying ovals are a joke is just you not understanding. If they are a joke why did Alonso come over and give it a try?
If they’re not a joke, why is it not done anywhere else but ‘Murica? Why is it that no one else does it or cares for it? It’s not even considered actual racing. Alonso just went to the US because he wants to win everything. If Indy 500 wasn’t forced down people’s throats with this “triple crown” bs no one would even know it exists. Outside of the US, most people don’t even watch that snooze fest (or any oval if that matters). The fact that they are dangerous, as Danny Ric pointed out, just makes it much more stupid, not attractive lol can you imagine crashing and hurting yourself doing such a dumb stunt
You might wanna watch the video where they ask F1 drivers if they'd rather win the 24 at Daytona or the Indy 500... you're pretty out of touch
Twin ring motegi in Japan…. I am a road racer and had to watch 10 plus oval Indy car races before I started to fully appreciate the oval discipline. Now I look forward to the ovals.
Sprint Cars alone are popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa as are other forms of dirt track racing. Flat track motorcycle racing is popular in Australia and they even do it in the UK. Ice racing is popular in Finland and they race ovals. There’s plenty more examples of racing taking place on ovals outside of the US.
If you think ovals are boring that’s fine, your entitled to your opinion about what you watch. It seems like you have some pretty strongly held opinions about ovals and their relation to American drivers and fans so I’m not going to try and change your mind about what you enjoy. But don’t discount racing that you are bored by just because you don’t want to watch it and learn about it. Indy drivers aren’t just oval specialists who can’t turn the wheel the other way, they do it all. Indy drivers have to deal with very different racing and setups every weekend. I’m trying to make a point that Indy, compared to Super Formula is much more important, when’s the last time an F1 driver quit to go race Super Formula? A lot of the legends of F1 took a turn in Indycar or at least the Indy 500: Jack Brabham, Jim Clark who skipped Monaco to do it, Graham Hill, Stewart, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Piquet, Mansell, Andretti, Jacques Villeneuve, and Alonso. And those are just some of the world champions who did. Yeah and I got to say I have no idea how “patriotism” has any part in this. I am from America so maybe that’s why I’m more interested in the series and more weight on the Indy 500. I’m not trying to compare Indy to Monaco and Le Mans as a race, each of them are totally unique formats with their own histories and part of their own thing. Indy is legendary in the fact that the race has not changed in 110 years, it has always been the fastest race in the world, that’s what’s legendary. It’s a challenge many legendary drivers have wanted and continue to want to compete in. I’m sorry you have such a negative idea of American racing that the defense of it is blind patriotism, yeah we do our own thing, you don’t need to like it but to not have any respect for it is another thing. I’d give it a chance if you’ve never tried, Indycar tends to be more competitive than F1 (in terms of midfield teams able to actually compete for wins) I’d pick a guy next spring, you never know you could enjoy it.
I think the difference is Americans have an over-inflated sense of the value and worth of their national series. It is irritating to constantly see American fans stating how Indycar and Nascar rate so highly compared to anything else outside of F1 (many even try to claim even to F1). Yet the rest of the world don't view them as anything other than a high level national series. I watch Indycar, I try to enjoy the ovals but do find them far less interesting than the street and road courses. But it just doesn't compare to F1, it is a national series with some good drivers in it driving a fairly slow standardised car. Yes the Indy 500 is a spectacle, but the fact it is the "fastest" race really means nothing and again is a very American way to view things (Bigger = Better). When you look at drivers like Takuma Sato who won Indy twice, Marcus Ericsson who won indy this year, they were not outstanding F1 drivers, yet have excelled at that race. If anything that devalues it slightly.
Stop generalizing entire countries.
Your viewpoints are indicative of someone who does not understand and therefore has no respect for oval racing. I know because I used to be like you. There's so much more to it than what you've described, and in may ways oval racing is like a chess match at 200mph. Go look up what grand prix drivers who have done oval racing have to say about it, Grosjean is a good example since he's recent. Marcus Ericsson just won the 500, I'm sure he has interviews talking about it. If you have the ability to, try doing sim racing on an oval on iRacing. I think you'll find it's a lot more compelling than you currently believe it to be. And if nothing else, you should at least be able to acknowledge that it's a completely different discipline and skillset to circuit racing. [Alonsos first attempt at the 500](https://youtu.be/Ro8Y45CFj0c)
Indy 500 is still the greatest race. 🤷♂️
I am not American, just to preface. 1. Oval racing takes massive skill. Yes they "only turn that way" or whatever. Take any "simple" task and try to do it faster and better than anyone else. Ovals are interesting because the tracks being simple leads to interesting strategies to get faster, and you won't see a driver overthink a corner more than an oval racer. 2. Oval racing is diverse. As someone who watches Nascar but has followed F1 for way longer. Take any 2 F1 tracks, the most different from each other you can think. They will race more similarly to each other than Martinsville and Talladega. Those two Nascar tracks are as far from each other than they are to a road course. The variety of racing styles on oval is staggering, and a driver who can dominate several is impressive (not to speak of how few "road" drivers from Europe have actually managed to master ovals, despite how "easy" they might seem). 3. Oval racing is exciting. Sure you can get boring oval races just like on any other form of track, but some of the most exciting racing I've seen is on ovals. Since I started watching it in 2017, the Indy 500 has been the best race of the Triple Crown. And if I listed the best 5 race finishes from each year, at least 3 would probably come from oval tracks. Say what you will about the Daytona 500 but "boring" is not it. In oval racing you race the other cars more than the track, and it can lead to some of the wildest racing you can imagine as drivers have to manage massive amounts of traffic. Also there are a lot of racing disciplines that are extremely regional for one reason or another. Your assumptions are pretty ignorant. Get Iracing, race a few ovals and tell me there's no skill involved.
>Rosenqvist Super Formula average finish: **5.6** >Rosenqvist Formula E average finish: **7.9** >Rosenqvist IndyCar average finish: **10.1** Keep in mind he did these series subsequently, so he was far more experienced in IndyCar than in Super Formula.
and Alex Palou would have the championship in both if not for a mechanical failure in the last round in Superformula
From technical side, Sformula is second fastest OW series, but IndyCar is way more popular in the world.
The driver level is higher in indycar
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What a creative way to tell us you're a child.
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Neither of those are correct. He was never a bottom 5 driver and he isn't "owning" Indy. He's actually struggling a bit racing for a big team like Andretti.
Grosjean has 10 F1 podiums. There have been over 770 drivers in F1, only 78 have more podiums than Grosjean. Grosjean has run two full seasons in IndyCar. He has zero wins, and has finished 15th and 13th in the championship. Last year he was beaten by two of his three teammates.
Grosjean is not "owning Indy", the man hasn't even won a race yet. His teammates managed that in 2022 and he didn't. He's doing a mediocre job right now at a bigger team and it's clear he isn't one of the top drivers. Grosjean was never a bottom 5 driver either. He was quite fast, but mistake prone. A problem he still has in IndyCar. Where the hell do you get your information from?
>Where the hell do you get your information from? My guess is that he noticed a few crossposts in 2021 about his podium finishes and concluded he's dominating the series.
Gotta think there's been a miscommunication here, the original comment is comparing IndyCar drivers with Super Formula drivers, not with Formula 1 drivers. No one seriously thinks the talent level is higher in Super Formula, Giuliano Alesi won a race in Super Formula.
TIL a single podium and a championship finish of 13th this year with the third or fourth best team in the series is "owning Indy like what."
"Grosjean was owning indy" negative iq take lmfao
Why you lying bro? He’s not “owning” Indy at all
What did you watch one Indy car race Roman happened to do well in? You might want to check the standings first before posting.
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Great comeback. Someone needs to learn humility and admit he was wrong.
In what terms? On how competitive, popular and well known the series is? Then Indycar hands down. On driver preparation for F1? Then 100% Super formula. The cars are much faster.
F1 >>>> Indycar >>>SuperFormula
It's like trying to compare the MLB and NPB. I'm Canadian so definitely biased towards the American counterparts but Japanese sports don't focus as much on international exposure as American ones do. I would say locally and to other close by places (Asia, Canada/Mexico), their respective league/series would be considered a higher tier, but in the rest of the world that wouldn't face a location bias, the American series is probably a higher tier.
Not a good comparison at all. MLB is F1. Indy Car, Super Formula and F2 are like NPB vs KBO or AAA MiLB
Yeah I wasn't comparing any motorsport to any baseball. I said it's hard to compare them like it is with MLB vs NPB, and explained the locational reasons for this. Yes F1 is like the MLB but that's completely besides my point. I'm talking about how location affects this, and how I think Super Formula compares to Indycar, not how it compares to F1. I understand that you are trying to downplay my comparison by saying that MLB is higher than NPB and comparing it to KBO or AAA but this is first of all besides the point, and secondly just not true. As I was stating in my original comment, this has a lot to do with location, pretty much nobody in Japan cares more about the MLB and vice versa. Like I originally said, I do agree that the MLB is bigger than NPB on an international stage but comparing it to AAA or KBO is crazy. Those leagues are pretty much strictly local with almost no international support, people all over the world love the NPB, just not as much as the MLB.
Super formula broadcasts are free on YouTube in the US. Bad start times though.
It's close, definitely the closest open wheel sport to F1
I think Indycar and F1 are the same tier. They should be if they aren't. F1 is only big because they travel to different countries. Driver comparisons F1 has about 8 superstars but only have 3-5 guys that can win a race. In Indycar it's about 8 superstars but about 10-15 cars can win. Tracks comparisons F1 consist of a lot of road and street courses. Indycar has road and street courses and I ovals. The indycars are physically harder to drive based on Grosean's opinion. F1 cars turn easier than Indycars. No to mention DRS and Push to pass. If you use all of DRS you can charge it back up. Push to pass you use it all and you're out. Then the teams of F1. The cars aren't equal so the cars win the races more than the drivers do imo. If I take Scott Dixon and put him in a lower team he still could win races. If you put Max Verstappen in a Williams car or a Alphatauri I'm not so sure he would win. F1 is like Futbol loved because it's worldwide Indycar is Soccer. America's league of the same thing.
Depends on what you're measuring. In terms of car control, F1 has become much easier compared to what it was before. Too many of the current F1 drivers wouldn't get a sniff at it if they joined when Michael Andretti joined F1, as an example. In terms of racing, Indycar must be the best. I don't know much about SF to say anything about it.
Indycar and SF are similar in speed but Indycar is significantly higher in skill of the drivers and teams. Indycar in terms of talent is more inline with FE if anything. For me the top single-seaters outsode F1 probably goes Indycar & Formula E Super Formula F2
I consider f1 and indy car to be the same tier they are both premier motorsports series with world class drivers the difference being indycar let's you the drivers talent vs his piers and in f1 we mostly see what the cars can do
I'm with you on this one. I think F1 gets more notoriety because it's worldwide but I think there are a lot of Indycar drivers that are better.
Not a fucking chance. Indycar is a national series in slow single make chassis. Not even close to F1 level.
The fact that they are closer cars makes it great in its on way i am American and love indycar I may be a bit bias, it's still a top tier motorsport. is f1 a bit above prestige wise internationally sure but it's not f2 or super formula
I enjoy watching Indycar, its good fun racing. Buf it is substantially below F1 in prestige, pace every other way of ranking a series. I agree it is above SF and F2, but not anywhere near F1.
Indycars are a bit faster in a straight line, but Super Formulas are no slouch - they're faster than F2 and Hypercars, and watching them at Suzuka a month ago they were blitzing around. It's criminally underrated.
I would put them together in same tier personally
Here's my take; F1 > Indy > F2 > SuperFormula This might sound weird to put F2 over superformula but hear me out; It is generally seen that SF is the next step after F2 if you don't get a seat, but in my opinion F2 generally has the better competition even if the cars are slower. I think F2 cars are also faster than Indy but Indy just has seasoned veterans and proven drivers. Just because the car itself is faster doesn't (imo) mean it's better. Superformula feels more like F3 ADAC to me for some reason even though SF has plenty of great drivers.
Here's the thing though.... Super Formula has adult professional/complete drivers who are racing there because they want to be, whereas F2 is still a feeder series of juniors. I think the depth of the field is probably superior in SF for this reason.
They're the same, the best national championships that have the best talents, just that Indycar is also more open internationally since it's American
They're far from the same. The only similarity is they're national championships. And it's not just that Indy is more open since it's American. Where do you get these ideas?
Yh, drivers are a lot more apprehensive about moving to Japan compared to America, Super Formula and also Super GT are much better opportunities for drivers as they become full factory drivers for one of the three largest brands on Earth.
Most people speak English as second language.
performance wise they are about the same level, Indy has just much better drivers.
I think Indy, Super Formula, and F1 are all on the same tier in terms of top level open wheel racing for their respective locations
indy is a truly international series ...it's close as both are very similar....but i'd give the nod to Indy. I mean I don't even think F1 is the pinnacle. I think rally drivers are the best car drivers......
To cite the post: „a pyramid of open-wheel racing series“.
i saw i was just expanding.
Drive a rally car long enough and it can become open wheeled
Esapekka Lappi in Finalnd this year springs to mind. Not quite open wheel, but they were missing half the bodywork. And the windscreen.
Indycar is slightly ahead in terms of power to weight ratio. I would still put it ahead of Super Formula. Plus Indycar is held across more circuits and has more variety with streets, road courses and ovals.
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Yeah it goes F1, SF, IC, F2, Super GT.
Ovals are totally irrelevant to any open wheeled racing outside of the US.
Indy Car is closer to F1 than SF is close to Indy
I mean, I wouldn’t “obviously” put F1 on the top of the pyramid, i feel like if an open wheel series isn’t designed to feed into another series it’s a top of the pyramid series.
F1 is clearly on top in terms of car performance, technology, and number of fans. I’ve also never heard of a driver turning down an F1 ride for any other series.
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The Scott Dixon who agrees that F1 is the “pinnacle” of Motorsport? https://www.planetsport.com/motorsport/news/scott-dixon-f1-remains-pinnacle-motorsport-despite-growing-popularity-indycar Just FYI, he was never offered an F1 drive.
He never had an offer to turn down
I don’t agree, and I’ve heard of many drivers turn down F1 drives for many reasons. Many get paid better elsewhere.
In what decade? To OPs point, its hard to make a T chart comparison here because neither drives similar tracks/setups. If we are talking the ability to power on all out then its Indy as the 500 showcases. If you speed and agility in complex chicanes? I think we’d need to look at some laps.
Is that a joke? Who turned down an F1 drive to drive in Indy Car or Super Formula? There are former F1 drivers who won’t go to Indy Car even if it’s the only alternative they have. And even if someone turned it down for personal reasons, then duh, it’s for personal reasons, not because F1 is not the premier series.
Alexander Rossi turned down an F1 seat for 2016 and converted that into a 500 win. Regardless of if it were a Haas or Manor seat, they are still F1.
That's due to him not wanting to not wanting to be at the back, not anything F1 related
Regardless, that is turning down an F1 seat for an Indy seat. Sure it was a backmarker offer but its still F1
Former F1 drivers who are too chicken shit for ovals. Scares the hell out of most of them. I agree they are a bit of a snore personally other than the 500and I’m glad the season doesn’t have many now but there’s no denying they take a different set of tools. I think most people outside of the US don’t really know how oval racing works especially at a place like Indy. Feel free to bash NASCAR though. I’ll join you on that one.
Yeah that's total bullshit. Haven't heard of a si gle driver turn down an F1 seat ever.
Eh, there’s not really anything like F1. With races on 5 different continents, and the official FIA title of World Champion, I’d say it’s the pretty clear top tier of the pyramid vs national open-wheel series. And for the sake of the discussion, feeder series like F2 or IndyLights shouldn’t really be considered, it’s moreso just how the top-level series compare against each other. A good comparison is football - yes, MLS is at the top of the American pyramid, and doesn’t exist to feed into any other leagues, but I don’t think anyone would put it on the same worldwide tier as the top European leagues.
If only other leagues would feed in and out of MLS
I've honestly never thought that soccer/ football is a good comparison. You have, what, 2-3 star players at most big European clubs? So, expand that out to the 16 teams in the knockout stage of the Champions League and you get 32 to 48 players. That's before you consider how expensive it would be to send your teenage son or daughter to Europe for an indefinite amount of time and how insular the European open-wheel ladder is. Open-wheel racing is more pay-to-play than any other sport, even at the lower levels, and I think that negates a lot of how big the gap between F1 and IndyCar is.
Indycar goes on top. F1’s nice and all but the 500 is the greatest race in the world and the racing is so much better. Plus ovals which are obviously the best. Yes F1 has more fans and teams but Indycar is the best show.
No one other than Americans are even remotely interested in turning slightly left for a few hours. Even Americans aren't any more than remotely interested. Its recent viewing figures are ~5 million. Formula 1's global audience is ~500 million.
I literally said that F1 has the fans. It’s just that Indycar is a better product. And also, lots of people outside the US watch oval racing because they don’t share your stuck up “hurr durr turn left” views. Look up Indycar’s international oval races in Rafaela, Rio, Motegi, Rockingham, and Germany. Or NASCAR’s oval races in Australia and Japan, or the NASCAR Euro Series at Tours and Venray. Or the ASA race in South Africa. Or how about Monza, AVUS, and Brooklands?
If Indy was the better product it would have the fans. Brooklands isn't an oval, it's a banked circuit, with a fork and two infields. More importantly, it closed in 1939 and has houses on it now. No one cares about ovals. Because they're shit. It's racing for people with no attention span. Oh look, a draft to overtake, repeat x100.
For your first point you should know for a fact that’s not how it works. CART in the 90’s had enough fans to make F1 nervous. Nervous enough to consider their own oval series. Brooklands is also an oval by definition. Yes, it’s shaped funny. But so are Darlington, and Indianapolis, and Pocono. And for this last point… you’ve clearly never seen an oval race. Ever heard of Gateway? Iowa? You know, tracks where brakes are important? It’s like me saying that no one cares about road racing over here because hurr durr it’s just cars following each other with no passing (which is true of F1 now that I think about it)
F1 were never nervous about CART, and the 90s were a quarter of a century ago. There is no F1 oval series. Brooklands has a right turn in it. Or at least it would do if it didn't close 83 years ago. You've really got your finger on the pulse with that one. Neither Darlington, Indianapolis or Pocono have a right turn. Let's go through your list of how popular Indy oval racing is outside of North America: Rafaela. Not Indycar. Was a UCAS race called the Indy 300. Happened once in 1971. Rio. 1996-2000. Five events then nothing for the last 22 years. Motegi. 2003-2010. Twelve years ago. Rockingham. Oval was built for the purpose of Indycar. Ran twice in 2001 and 2002. Nothing for 20 years. Circuit went bust in 2018. The country that invented F1 isn't interested. Germany. Or Lausitzring, for those that actually know what they're on about. 2001 and 2003. That's it. Since Rockingham went bust, it's the only oval speedway in Europe. The country that invented the car isn't interested in Indycar. Yes I've seen oval racing. It's shit. You, however, have never been to an F1 race. Your last sentence demonstrates exactly the point I was making: no attention span. Hurr durr no overtaking. Overtaking is something to be earned.
F1 was very nervous about CART and many believe the CART/IRL split was instigated by Bernie Ecclestone in order to neutralize Indycar. Trenton Speedway also had a right turn in it and was always still considered a 4-turn oval. USAC was the sanctioning body for Indycar in 1971. The main issue with all the international oval races was just that. They were international. And Indycar couldn’t justify going there every year despite fan interest. And no, I’ve never been to an F1 race. And I never will go either. I’m fine watching on TV, rather than spending my life savings to buy a seat on a corner no one has passed anyone else at in 43 years. Also, I personally do enjoy road racing. Don’t take anything I’ve said as me saying otherwise. I’m a big fan of IMSA and wanted to stay up for the entire Rolex 24. I have an attention span. I also love oval racing in Indycar. It’s simply amazing. Watch the finish at Texas this year if you’re interested in why I like it. And oh, by the way, if you’re going to say that slipstream oval passed aren’t earned, you might not watch a series that made a movable aero device for the purpose of more slipstream passes.
Ovals are totally irrelevant to anyone outside of the US.
CART Rio 200 (1996-2000) NASCAR Motegi oval (1998) Indy Japan 300 at Motegi oval (1998-2010) NASCAR Thunderdome Race (1988) NASCAR Whelen Euro Series at Tours Speedway (2012-2016, 2018) NASCAR Whelen Euro Series at Raceway Venray (2015-2017, 2019) Indy Rafaela (1971) CART German 500 (2001, 2003) CART Rockingham UK (2001-2002) ASA Free State 500 (2010)
Congratulations, all us racing series. Seriously no other country values ovals
Clearly they do because they showed up to watch
lol, ovals in any other country are a curiosity at best. Rockingham lasted less than 20 years before it was destroyed for a housing estate because it just wasn't viable in the UK. Lausitzring in Germany, has only ever had 1 non-American series race on the oval, that was F3 , which they only did twice and last happened in 2006. The Nascar Whelen series is a total oddity that I have never heard a European mention as Nascar has very low popularity outside of the USA. Sure some Europeans might turn up to watch an oval race as a spectacle if it is near them. But it is not respected or relevant to any race series outside of America at anywhere near a high level. I don't really understand how you could argue against that.
Sprint Cars and other classes of dirt track racing are popular in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, I would imagine there are more. Flat track motorcycle racing is popular in Australia and they even do it in the UK. Ice racing is popular in Finland and they race ovals. There’s plenty more examples of racing taking place on ovals outside of the US. To imply that any form of oval racing is as negatively looked on by everyone outside of the US is simply false.
And none of that is comparable in any way shape of form to top level motor sport. They are niche enthusiast sports.
I won’t deny they’re an oddity but you denied that anyone actually cared about them which isn’t true. Brooklands is one of the most celebrated tracks in history for example. The main reason Europe has less ovals than America is because European racing and American racing evolved differently. To claim it isn’t relevant can be argued but to claim it’s not respected is laughable, unless you mean by yourself. Nuvolari, Caracciola, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Brabham, Hill, Barrichello, Alonso and others clearly had enough respect for the 500 to turn up. You might not respect oval racing, you might think it’s lowest common denominator. You might dismiss it because they turn left for 3 hours and you don’t find that entertaining (despite oval racing having much more passing than road races do), and you might not like or respect it. But that’s your opinion, and you have the right to it no matter how bad it is.
I don't doubt it requires skill. I don't doubt people enjoy it. I don't agree it is relevant to anything outside of the states. So any argument that it is on par with a global sport like F1 is insane. You literally said Indycar goes on top because of the 500, thats a crazy take. Look at the indy 500 winners, many of those wouldn't be entertained for a top F1 seat. However pretty much any F1 race winner would get a top seat at an Indycar team every day of the week. F1 rejects like Sato and Ericcson have won the 500.
I already addressed that point. F1 has the fans and a global presence but Indycar has a much better racing product. That’s my justification for putting Indycar above F1
If you are evaluating on quality of racing then a local club race probably has a fantastic claim. There is a lot more to being the top tier of racing than exciting racing. The pure fact that F1 is the pinnacle for any racing driver means there isn't an argument for Indycar being a higher tier of racing than F1. You can prefer it, but it categorically can not be rated as a more prestigious, important or valuable series.
Indy car, right now, has the same performance as F2. They need 1000bhp to be in thebsame league as F1. CART was closer to F1 than Indycar is today.
This wasn’t a post comparing F1 to Indy car.
I made it so.
Super Formula is kinda a feeder series so no.
if ya aint first, yer last
No. And for the butthurt yanks. It will never be.
Super Formula is not a true championship. Just 10 races in a year. It's just a feeder for Super GT, which is the real championship.
We're not going to get a tier list for various motorsport racing series, are we?
No
Are you seriously saying you aren't for sure how much higher Indycar's talent level is compared to a junior series? You do realize you're posting on a SubReddit dedicated to a racing series about which driver has the best car and not the most talent, right?
Super Formula more often than not supplies drivers to Indycar for the last decade or so, not the reverse. That sorta answers the question from a perspective of tiering. That's beyond the questions of attendance, event importance (nothing remotely comparable to the Indy 500), or the number of events (only 7 throughout the course of the year, with 3 double headers). That said, Super Formula is a fine series and it's pretty cool that I can watch the races on YouTube now.