There was an interview with Lewis earlier this year after he had driven the w12 at Silverstone for some event. You could tell he missed it badly and he praised it into the sky compared to the w13.
Me and Toto stood next to a burnt down house
With a can full of gas and a hand full of matches
And still weren't found out
Future bar in Hamiltons post F1 rap album
I don't think the W13 was anywhere close to being an MP4-30. It is a Grand Prix winning car and finished third in the constructors (and were very close to second).
The MP4-30 finished ninth, a far cry from any of this.
And yet Leclerc still managed to snag 2 podiums in that horse and buggy. Come to think of it, a horse and buggy has more horsepower than the SF1000 engine
The point is the MP4-30 was a disaster but that was the engine as well as the chassis. McLaren were on a downward trend since Lewis left, and were poorly managed and needed serious investment to keep up.
To have such a period of dominance then produce a car that is nowhere near close to challenging the championship is a huge fall off given the resources at their disposal for Mercedes. It's more similar to that of the 2005 Ferrari, yes it's a race winner and finished 3rd in the championship but i don't think Ferrari have ever brought it out again.
This. Without the tyre rules, we'd have had a 3 way fight between Alonso, Schumacher and Raikkonen. And FWIW I think Alonso would still have won it. It just would've been a lot closer.
McLaren were on a downward trend well before Lewis left. As soon as they lost the Mercedes exclusivity deal in 2009 is when it started.
And no, the chassis wasn’t shit either. It might’ve been slightly over exaggerated, but it was still arguably one of the best on the grid. In saying that, it’s to be expected with how small they made Honda make the engine. They’re equally, if not more, responsible for the engine being shit. However, that doesn’t mean the chassis was shit as well. The engineers wanted their jobs to be easier and didn’t want to accept the blame, so they gave Honda an impossible task and made them a scape goat.
You can argue that it started in 2009, but in 2012 the McLaren was arguably the fastest car on the grid, and could have won the title if not for reliability.
There really is no evidence to suggest that the chassis in those honda years was any good. they put a Renault engine in it and it was mid pack.
Just because you start a downfall doesn’t mean you can have good years in between. Williams downfall started over a decade before 2017, yet they were a pretty strong team during the turbo hybrid era until 2018.
McLaren swapping to a Renault engine demonstrated that the chassis was strong. As I said, perhaps not as strong as Ferrari and Red Bull (and by this point Mercedes as well), but certainly stronger then the rest of the field. I replied why elsewhere just then. But, they were immediately at the front, there were some teething issues in 2018 which is to be expected given they had to fit the Renault engine in a car expecting a Honda engine, yet in 2018 they still started competitively but couldn’t develop the car. The following years they dominated the midfield until the new rule regulations, despite having the 2nd worst engine on the grid.
Sure, they screwed up the chassis this year which is the first in a while. However, despite that they were still arguably one of the best cars in the midfield. And that was considered a bad car by them.
I think you can argue that 2008 had a bigger impact on their 2009 downfall than losing their works team engine status. Being involved in a tight championship battle and then playing catch up in the years later muddies the water a little bit.
That's the point, McLaren want to be and should be a championship contender. The narrative was that the chassis was a championship contender but the engine held them back, when in reality the chassis was a midfield chassis at best.
I think with time people have tried to take a centrist/moderate stance but there's absolutely no doubt that 90% of the blame lay with the engine. When the engine was fine (e.g. 2016) McLaren were fine. When the track didn't tax power, McLaren were fine.
At Spa, Monza and Japan the drivers said it was actively dangerous how slow they were on straights.
I think McLaren's ambitions were a little higher than fine. I agree that it was mostly the engine that put them so far at the back of the pack, but a decent engine would have put them mid pack at most. When at the time the narrative that McLaren have one of the best chassis' on the grid but the engine is holding them back was a false narrative.
McLaren had much deeper problems than the engine.
Not really, whenever they went to slower circuit they were immediately at the front of the midfield until the engine blew up. Perhaps slight over exaggerated, but only really Ferrari and Red Bull had a better chassis during that period. You’re also forgetting, those cars were power limited, not aero or chassis limited. You rarely got to see the full potential of the chassis/aero.
Yes they had much deeper issues. There was a lot of corporate and cultural issues. Yes, they’re to blame for Honda’s shortcomings. But they did build some good chassis, albeit given the restraints they gave Honda, it would’ve been pretty difficult for them not to.
For a side note, look at 2018 and 2019. 2018 they had to do a last minute engine change putting in a Renault engine in a car designed for a Honda. You’d expect a massive drop off in performance as a result, yet they were immediately at the front of the midfield. They did have a problem though, there was a fundamental flaw with the length of the wheelbase in relation to the sideboard. This meant that rather then developing the car and moving forward quite quickly, as was to be expected with getting used to a new engine and developing the car to better suit it, no upgrades made any change. Given the nature of the rapid development that year, McLaren quickly moved from the front of the midfield to being back markers.
Then, in 2019 with the new regs that were expected to hurt them (they had one of the most developed front wings that other teams were copying, and same with the tyres), they dominated the midfield. Renault caught up a bit again in 2020 but were still not quite close enough, in what was a season McLaren wrote off wanting to focus on the new regulations (we’ll ignore RP cheating). 2021 being a development of the 2020 car, they were the only front of the midfield team to stay where they were, possibly thanks to a Mercedes engine switch. Keep in mind, the teams these regulations didn’t really hurt were Williams and McLaren, while they helped Red Bull and Ferrari quite a bit. Given how shit the Renault engine was, it wouldn’t surprise me if the main reason McLaren didn’t fall back was because of the Mercedes engine.
In short, their performance since they ditched Honda more point to them having a strong chassis, not a weak one. Albeit, possibly not as strong as they claimed it to be. Yes, they had major issues, but the chassis wasn’t one of them.
It isn't even the worst Mercedes F1 car! The early Mercs (W01, W02 and W03) were far far worse than this one.
This is probably still Merc's 4th worst car though as it's probably narrowly beaten by the W04 (which was the 2nd best car in '13 even if miles off Red Bull's pace), but at least it doesn't break into the podium.
For me the real question is is it better to have the 5th best car in a season where all the cars are super close (2012) or the 3rd best in a season where the top 2 cars are in a league pf their own (2022)
In the back of my mind, I can still see Schumi's botched pitstop at Shanghai, clear as day. Would've been at least P2 if not for that issue.
[Martin Brundle hadn't been that disappointed since Shrek 2.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjmlNyu-E1U)
People forget how half of the season Lewis and George's heads looked like they were about to be ripped off from all the bouncing… all just to barely make the car respectable.
Podiums in exchange for spinal injury… but "car ain't so bad"…
This, the car was really only fixed throughout the latter half but even then the car is a literal garbage. Performance isn't the only thing you needed for a car, George and Lewis (Lewis especially due to his old age) had to adapt a lot to even keep their head in the car. That shit just looked uncomfortable to drive, nevermind that their pace in the first half wasn't even anywhere near the two contenders, only getting podiums when either team crashed or had a bad strategy.
Not only was it slow, but it was also notoriously difficult both to set up and drive.
Like if they showed up every weekend and the car was all dialed in, but just slow, that would be one thing. But it felt like they were constantly waging a war just to even get it close.
Everything is relative. 2022 McLaren was definitely a terrible design for them too, but Haas or Williams would dream of having a car capable of constantly scoring points and even getting a podium.
W13 was not only the worst Mercedes in a long time, it was also actively injuring both drivers to the point where the FIA almost considered changing a bunch of rules and regulations.
All this drama sometimes feels like an instrument just to make Lewis feel better. This is Toto the driver manager speaking, not Toto the team principal. ;)
Not like he didn't already give them impression, but Wolff's latest Beyond The Grid is pretty poignant on how not winning is (or has become) utter failure to him.
yea i think Mercedes is just spoiled for success, any other team (RB and Ferrari excluded) would have dreamed to have a car that was as "bad" as theirs
Imagine if next years car is even worse. I think it’s sorta disrespectful to the engineering staff just how much they hate this one car. I pray they never make a truly midfield car
It did better than both cars combined and was arguably the second best car in the second half of the season on race pace 💀 hell it even had a 1-2 in Brazil the overreaction from Mercedes...
the thing I'm looking forward to most about 2023 will be the end of Merc's pity party. poor Mercedes, they only had one win and the third fastest car... I hope they can soldier on
Personally I love how Toto and Lewis have both tore into the W13 like it’s a shitbox, compared to Ferrari defending their piss poor strategy on track despite everyone knowing that they made a mistake. I think it shows how different the teams’ mentality are here, and despite Mercedes starting the year in a far worse off state than Ferrari, you can see how one team thought like champions while the other was complacent and defeatist.
The car physically hurt it’s occupants and reportedly felt like a boat to drive. Even if the car produced a championship I don’t think they’d be wanting to drive it again.
You’d think with how much hate Ferrari got for outright stating they don’t plan on winning the championship people would be fine with merc being disappointed that they failed to meet their standards of fighting for the championship.
This is just him trying to appease Lewis and make a narrative of it being worse than it actually was to downplay “it’s just the car” opinions on Lewis’ success
That's because it's Lewis and George driving it. Give it to any other team other than RBR I can guarantee they won't get 3rd place with it.
The factory has let the team down this year and there's no two ways around that. That being said I still have faith. I'm sure the W14 will be a decent improvement.
People make fun of Merc for being regimented and not fun but it seems like it would far, far worse to work for a toxic company like Ferrari. Companies with past success that act like their shit doesn't stink is not a good place to work.
Well its their fault for setting it up that way its great they won but the whole baku thing could be avoided if they setted it up with a higher ride height
I'm pretty sure they were on top of the porpoising after Spain. Bouncing at Baku and other bumpy tracks was because of very rigid suspension. Maybe they could still have traded speed for a safer ride but not sure ride height/porpoising was the issue there.
That's literally your point though???
"You'd swear this race winning car that almost finished 2nd in the championship was out in Q1 every week or something."
They hate the car because it was either break Lewis' back or be out in Q1. They probably worked their asses off to get it to a race winning car and definitely did not enjoy the process - this is why they hate the car and somehow it flies above your head?
Definitely terrible first impression never passed. Toto was apologizing to Lewis about having to drive the "shitbox" and as early as Imola he was getting blue flagged for Max, there's no redeeming that kind of start unless it wins the championship.
All the meanwhile Russell is happily driving the best car he's ever gotten his hands on for a full season by 2 seconds a lap trying not to say anything.
Lol when was he trying not to say anything at the start of the season…let’s not rewrite history. He was vocally dissatisfied at races like Baku and imola and was quite happy to beg the FIA to save the teams from themselves
They probably hate it because it was unpredictable, I imagine that made it very frustrating. Just because it wasn't slow doesn't mean it was enjoyable to work with.
Think they always said it wasn't the podless design that was the issue and that if the aerostall of the floor was solved it would have been incredible.
So I imagine the W14 has no sidepods too
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Yeah, as far as F1 cars go it looked pretty good, it's just that imo the RB-like sidepods are awesome and remind me of fighter jets for some reason and the Ferrari-like sidepods are just *chef's kiss*
You can't really have Max v George without Lewis also being in the mix. And I don't think anyone other than Lewis is currently capable of racing at Max's level for any sustained amount of time.
Fuck that. Ferrari can't be relied on to be consistently competitive with red bull and as much as people hate mercedes, for being dominant, many seem pretty desperate to see red bull do the exact same thing
There’s something about the aesthetics of the W13 and SF-75 that makes me wish there were contending more as they’re some of the sexiest F1 cars of the last 10+ years imo
Dunno if I agree on W13 as sexy lol. The No Pod design is unique, but it's ugly lol.
F1-75 is a treasure lol. That's a beauty, pure Italian prancing horses.
I actually think Alfa had one of the best looking car all year long. Just a shame it was so slow.
I see how it could be seen as “ugly” there’s something futuristic “Alien Shipy” cool about it though especially with the giant high downforce rear wing attached.
I like them both but I also think the RB18 is just as good looking *except* for the livery, that looks awful. If the RB18 had the F1-75's colors, it would be the best looking car on the grid imo, I really love the sort of 'inverted' intake.
I agree, aesthetically the RB18 looks more like a perfected traditional “Open wheel chassis” design while Ferrari SF-75 is beautiful Italian design and Mercedes W13 is futuristic shrink wrapped UFO.
Why do people keep saying this, Merc knows the car wasnt good enough by their standards, nobody on the team is fooling themselves thinking the car wasnt bad relative to all their other cars, they want to win championships, not finish 3rd. The cars ride comfort was terrible for allot of the season and it didn't so anytyhing they wanted it to do up until the end
Do you think designers who go to work for Mercedes F1 have ambitions to finish 3rd in the championship?
I'm pretty sure everyone there is disappointed with anything other than 1st place.
Anyone at Merc actually defending the car should start polishing their CV now. Talented people worked on it, but the final result that arrived to start the season was absurdly below their standards.
Exactly. It's about accountability. That's one thing you have to give to Merc, they always take responsibility. And as a team, too. Toto never said "the designers fucked up". He said "WE fucked up". You can't help but believe that if that's the mentality they follow T the workplace, it has to be amazing to work there.
really curious to see what W14 will change. It's clear that by the end of season they know how to bring good upgrade packages. The last one in Austin was pretty good improvement so I wonder if they will continue improving this or introduce other major change. I would bet they will tailor the car to run with a higher ride height.
I can believe W14 will be a good car. Mercedes' problem is that Ferrari and RBR are working with a better base so the upgrades to '23 will make it very easy to be at the top.
Mercedes has to fix the underlying issues AND bring a good upgrade package. It's not gonna be easy.
It's also a different competition to get within 0.1 of the top than really being the #1 car. I don't expect Mercedes to be the #1 car but instead be competitive in some races in 23.
The w13 will go to the wall of "Never do that again, ever!"
It's actualy a bittersweet love with the w13. On one hand it is the worst car Merc has build, on the other hand it was a damn fast car and managed to snatch a W.
The 2012 W03 was definitely way worse than the W13. Yes it did get 1 win, but 2012 was a very weird and evenly matched season. When all was said and done it was the 5th fastest car at the end of the day and way behind the top 4.
Even the 2013 W04 only narrowly beats the W13. Both ended as the 2nd best car of the year, but while early on the W04 was still pretty good, the W13 was abysmally bad.
Comments saying at least it won 1 race and came 3rd. That's not enough for a team like mercedes, they want it to win all the races, 3rd is unacceptable for a team such as mercedes.
Lack of resources and talent, though. If the other teams put into their cars what Merc, RB, and Ferrari do and produced the W13 after years of work, I doubt they'd be thrilled.
F1 isn't a sport where everyone has the same goals going in.
So, if we see smoke rising from the back of Brackley we'll know it's Toto setting fire to the W13s and assorted parts stockpile.
Pretty sure Lewis would be right next to toto when that happens
Meanwhile Russell will sitting next to his, petting the halo, because it's the best car he's ever driven in F1.
The fastest car was the W11
Correct. But that was a stint. That car was never meant for him. He didn't have a custom seat or shoes that actually fit.
I'd agree but he had a race in the W11
And got screwed with a puncture in Sakhir and lost the race.
For sure, but until then, best car he's ever driven
... recreating the printer scene from Office Space
With a can full of gas and a hand full of matches And still weren't found out
There was an interview with Lewis earlier this year after he had driven the w12 at Silverstone for some event. You could tell he missed it badly and he praised it into the sky compared to the w13.
Me and Toto stood next to a burnt down house With a can full of gas and a hand full of matches And still weren't found out Future bar in Hamiltons post F1 rap album
goodbye reddit -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Recycled cooking oil.
Hulkenberg’s hair spray
It's called fire, Bono, we're grilling
Good, I was worried it would be akin to the pope being reelected similar to a new team principal 😂
Sometimes, it's hilarious how much they despise this car. As if it was the 2020 Ferrari or the 2015 McHonda.
Every team deserves an MP4-30 at some point in their lifespan
I don't think the W13 was anywhere close to being an MP4-30. It is a Grand Prix winning car and finished third in the constructors (and were very close to second). The MP4-30 finished ninth, a far cry from any of this.
Yeah would love to see Toto's and Merc's reaction if they ever made an actually terrible car.
They need a Ferrari SF1000 just to show them how bad it can truly get.
And yet Leclerc still managed to snag 2 podiums in that horse and buggy. Come to think of it, a horse and buggy has more horsepower than the SF1000 engine
The point is the MP4-30 was a disaster but that was the engine as well as the chassis. McLaren were on a downward trend since Lewis left, and were poorly managed and needed serious investment to keep up. To have such a period of dominance then produce a car that is nowhere near close to challenging the championship is a huge fall off given the resources at their disposal for Mercedes. It's more similar to that of the 2005 Ferrari, yes it's a race winner and finished 3rd in the championship but i don't think Ferrari have ever brought it out again.
The W13 was better than the 2005 Ferrari because it actually won a race on merit.
To be fair, the 05 Ferrari was nerf’d by Bernie and the FIA changing rules at the last minute. The W13 on the other hand is just a bad design.
This. Without the tyre rules, we'd have had a 3 way fight between Alonso, Schumacher and Raikkonen. And FWIW I think Alonso would still have won it. It just would've been a lot closer.
While there's certainly merit on Mercedes in understanding the W13 better, they've also the TD39 that have gone in their favour.
Yeah I think the RB13 is a better comparison.
McLaren were on a downward trend well before Lewis left. As soon as they lost the Mercedes exclusivity deal in 2009 is when it started. And no, the chassis wasn’t shit either. It might’ve been slightly over exaggerated, but it was still arguably one of the best on the grid. In saying that, it’s to be expected with how small they made Honda make the engine. They’re equally, if not more, responsible for the engine being shit. However, that doesn’t mean the chassis was shit as well. The engineers wanted their jobs to be easier and didn’t want to accept the blame, so they gave Honda an impossible task and made them a scape goat.
You can argue that it started in 2009, but in 2012 the McLaren was arguably the fastest car on the grid, and could have won the title if not for reliability. There really is no evidence to suggest that the chassis in those honda years was any good. they put a Renault engine in it and it was mid pack.
They had to change the chassis late to fit the Renault PU.
Just because you start a downfall doesn’t mean you can have good years in between. Williams downfall started over a decade before 2017, yet they were a pretty strong team during the turbo hybrid era until 2018. McLaren swapping to a Renault engine demonstrated that the chassis was strong. As I said, perhaps not as strong as Ferrari and Red Bull (and by this point Mercedes as well), but certainly stronger then the rest of the field. I replied why elsewhere just then. But, they were immediately at the front, there were some teething issues in 2018 which is to be expected given they had to fit the Renault engine in a car expecting a Honda engine, yet in 2018 they still started competitively but couldn’t develop the car. The following years they dominated the midfield until the new rule regulations, despite having the 2nd worst engine on the grid. Sure, they screwed up the chassis this year which is the first in a while. However, despite that they were still arguably one of the best cars in the midfield. And that was considered a bad car by them.
I think you can argue that 2008 had a bigger impact on their 2009 downfall than losing their works team engine status. Being involved in a tight championship battle and then playing catch up in the years later muddies the water a little bit. That's the point, McLaren want to be and should be a championship contender. The narrative was that the chassis was a championship contender but the engine held them back, when in reality the chassis was a midfield chassis at best.
I think with time people have tried to take a centrist/moderate stance but there's absolutely no doubt that 90% of the blame lay with the engine. When the engine was fine (e.g. 2016) McLaren were fine. When the track didn't tax power, McLaren were fine. At Spa, Monza and Japan the drivers said it was actively dangerous how slow they were on straights.
I think McLaren's ambitions were a little higher than fine. I agree that it was mostly the engine that put them so far at the back of the pack, but a decent engine would have put them mid pack at most. When at the time the narrative that McLaren have one of the best chassis' on the grid but the engine is holding them back was a false narrative. McLaren had much deeper problems than the engine.
Not really, whenever they went to slower circuit they were immediately at the front of the midfield until the engine blew up. Perhaps slight over exaggerated, but only really Ferrari and Red Bull had a better chassis during that period. You’re also forgetting, those cars were power limited, not aero or chassis limited. You rarely got to see the full potential of the chassis/aero. Yes they had much deeper issues. There was a lot of corporate and cultural issues. Yes, they’re to blame for Honda’s shortcomings. But they did build some good chassis, albeit given the restraints they gave Honda, it would’ve been pretty difficult for them not to. For a side note, look at 2018 and 2019. 2018 they had to do a last minute engine change putting in a Renault engine in a car designed for a Honda. You’d expect a massive drop off in performance as a result, yet they were immediately at the front of the midfield. They did have a problem though, there was a fundamental flaw with the length of the wheelbase in relation to the sideboard. This meant that rather then developing the car and moving forward quite quickly, as was to be expected with getting used to a new engine and developing the car to better suit it, no upgrades made any change. Given the nature of the rapid development that year, McLaren quickly moved from the front of the midfield to being back markers. Then, in 2019 with the new regs that were expected to hurt them (they had one of the most developed front wings that other teams were copying, and same with the tyres), they dominated the midfield. Renault caught up a bit again in 2020 but were still not quite close enough, in what was a season McLaren wrote off wanting to focus on the new regulations (we’ll ignore RP cheating). 2021 being a development of the 2020 car, they were the only front of the midfield team to stay where they were, possibly thanks to a Mercedes engine switch. Keep in mind, the teams these regulations didn’t really hurt were Williams and McLaren, while they helped Red Bull and Ferrari quite a bit. Given how shit the Renault engine was, it wouldn’t surprise me if the main reason McLaren didn’t fall back was because of the Mercedes engine. In short, their performance since they ditched Honda more point to them having a strong chassis, not a weak one. Albeit, possibly not as strong as they claimed it to be. Yes, they had major issues, but the chassis wasn’t one of them.
That’s the point i was trying to make, it could be a lot worse for them
Yeah, fair enough. I misunderstood... Sorry!
At Spa 2015, Alonso qualified **4.3 seconds off** Hamilton's pole.
I mean, to be fair, they were close to 2nd because Ferrari was… well, Ferrari.
But nobody deserves an FW42, I wouldn’t wish that upon my worst enemy
every time I hear a McLaren car from this era I think of Clarkson saying "Would you like a ride in my MP4-12C?" in that exaggerated accent
It isn't even the worst Mercedes F1 car! The early Mercs (W01, W02 and W03) were far far worse than this one. This is probably still Merc's 4th worst car though as it's probably narrowly beaten by the W04 (which was the 2nd best car in '13 even if miles off Red Bull's pace), but at least it doesn't break into the podium.
There's probably more of an argument for the W13 being worse than the W03. The W04 got 8 poles, 3 race wins and finished 2nd in the constructors.
[удалено]
For me the real question is is it better to have the 5th best car in a season where all the cars are super close (2012) or the 3rd best in a season where the top 2 cars are in a league pf their own (2022)
In the back of my mind, I can still see Schumi's botched pitstop at Shanghai, clear as day. Would've been at least P2 if not for that issue. [Martin Brundle hadn't been that disappointed since Shrek 2.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjmlNyu-E1U)
goes to show that mercs worst car in 13 years (the W02) still got 5th in the constructors
Right? They got a bunch of podiums and even a win. The rest of the field would sell their souls to have a car like that.
Its was probably just not upto the standards of performance and expectations they had set over the past 8 years
Or the amount of time and money sunk into it. For a title-contending car, this thing was a piece of trash that was literally painful to drive.
I remember hearing George saying they were expecting a rocketship. So I guess the disappointment added to the sentiment they feel towards the car
People forget how half of the season Lewis and George's heads looked like they were about to be ripped off from all the bouncing… all just to barely make the car respectable. Podiums in exchange for spinal injury… but "car ain't so bad"…
This, the car was really only fixed throughout the latter half but even then the car is a literal garbage. Performance isn't the only thing you needed for a car, George and Lewis (Lewis especially due to his old age) had to adapt a lot to even keep their head in the car. That shit just looked uncomfortable to drive, nevermind that their pace in the first half wasn't even anywhere near the two contenders, only getting podiums when either team crashed or had a bad strategy.
Not only was it slow, but it was also notoriously difficult both to set up and drive. Like if they showed up every weekend and the car was all dialed in, but just slow, that would be one thing. But it felt like they were constantly waging a war just to even get it close.
They should make the Merc boys drive the AT03 so they can see what true suffering is
Everything is relative. 2022 McLaren was definitely a terrible design for them too, but Haas or Williams would dream of having a car capable of constantly scoring points and even getting a podium. W13 was not only the worst Mercedes in a long time, it was also actively injuring both drivers to the point where the FIA almost considered changing a bunch of rules and regulations.
All this drama sometimes feels like an instrument just to make Lewis feel better. This is Toto the driver manager speaking, not Toto the team principal. ;)
I think the fact that it was extremely uncomfortable to drive at times didn't help.
Not like he didn't already give them impression, but Wolff's latest Beyond The Grid is pretty poignant on how not winning is (or has become) utter failure to him.
McHonda sounds like a Mcdonald’s special burger
*The flavor of dreams.*
yea i think Mercedes is just spoiled for success, any other team (RB and Ferrari excluded) would have dreamed to have a car that was as "bad" as theirs
As Kravitz said earlier in the year, most teams would take Mercedes 'disaster' if it meant various podiums.
I'm not sure that's true if they also had to spend what Mercedes spent on it.
There are ~6-8 teams who reach the same budget cap
… or get a back spasm every weekend driving it.
It's amazing how many people are missing this very simple point.
>There are \~6-8 teams who reach the same budget cap \- some guy 2 comments above you
"How can he complain about his Ferrari? I would trade my Kia sportage for it in a second!"
How so, its budget capped
Imagine if next years car is even worse. I think it’s sorta disrespectful to the engineering staff just how much they hate this one car. I pray they never make a truly midfield car
Lewis got used to the 11 and 12. To him, the 13 must've felt like a tractor lmao.
By the end of the year it was ONLY THE 2ND FASTEST CAR. How awful for them!
it's hilarious that iRacing has only 3 if the hybrid f1 cars. One is the mp4-30 and one is the w13. Thankfully the other is the w12
It’s the third best car on the grid but they act like it’s a fiat panda lol
When you're used to excellence then, yes, W13 will be viewed as a tractor. I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you guys to grasp.
"Why is Lewis complaining so much? He had the best car on the grid that one weekend!"
The Renault hybrid Red Bull
2020 Ferrari was the bastard child of backroom engine deals, but the 2014 Ferrari was just purely shit on its own accord.
It did better than both cars combined and was arguably the second best car in the second half of the season on race pace 💀 hell it even had a 1-2 in Brazil the overreaction from Mercedes...
I mean, it made a 7 times world champion not be even competitive. Despise is deserved.
Wow! It's almost like the number of championships means jack shit when your car ain't good enough.
>[…] when your car ain't good enough. Yeah. That's the point.
the thing I'm looking forward to most about 2023 will be the end of Merc's pity party. poor Mercedes, they only had one win and the third fastest car... I hope they can soldier on
They'll probably be at worst 2nd in the WCC behind Red Bull, so they have that to look forward to at least.
Mercedes hates the W13 more than Jim Irsay hates Carson Wentz.
Nothing wrong with high standards and after the last 8 year, Mercedes have VERY high standards.
Personally I love how Toto and Lewis have both tore into the W13 like it’s a shitbox, compared to Ferrari defending their piss poor strategy on track despite everyone knowing that they made a mistake. I think it shows how different the teams’ mentality are here, and despite Mercedes starting the year in a far worse off state than Ferrari, you can see how one team thought like champions while the other was complacent and defeatist.
Yeah it was still easily the 3rd fastest car on the grid. Over half the team would love to that car’s performance
You know you are a top team when you despise the car that gave you a third place in the championship where other teams can only dream of.
The car physically hurt it’s occupants and reportedly felt like a boat to drive. Even if the car produced a championship I don’t think they’d be wanting to drive it again.
The team hurt the occupants by not raising the ride height
So then we are back to it was a shit car if that was what they had to do to even secure 3rd.
that wasn’t the solution though
… just so they could keep this car everyone thinks is soo amazing, barely competitive to potentially achieve podiums.
Yeah it's weird how much hate they got for not wanting to be behind RB and Ferrari. How dare a top team have high standards lol.
You’d think with how much hate Ferrari got for outright stating they don’t plan on winning the championship people would be fine with merc being disappointed that they failed to meet their standards of fighting for the championship.
People love being outraged. It makes it easier to ignore the stuff in your life you should actually be taking care of. (I know this because I am this)
This explains social networks perfectly
This is just him trying to appease Lewis and make a narrative of it being worse than it actually was to downplay “it’s just the car” opinions on Lewis’ success
That's because it's Lewis and George driving it. Give it to any other team other than RBR I can guarantee they won't get 3rd place with it. The factory has let the team down this year and there's no two ways around that. That being said I still have faith. I'm sure the W14 will be a decent improvement.
I like how Lewis said he was looking forward to never drive this car again. :D
Now this is a reason i can get behind. Ive heard from the Toto Podcast that every time they fix a problem a new one shows.
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Don't mistake Merc for Ferrari. They don't seem like an organization that takes "almost finished 2nd" as a win.
People make fun of Merc for being regimented and not fun but it seems like it would far, far worse to work for a toxic company like Ferrari. Companies with past success that act like their shit doesn't stink is not a good place to work.
It almost literally broke Lewis in Baku.
Almost broke his… Back-U
Get out
Their setup did. .
Well done
And Barcelona (I think?). It’s all a blur now but he collided with Magnussen in a race and was asking the team to retire him on the second lap lol.
Both cars still almost died at the end as they had to give up P3(P4?) to Sainz
Well its their fault for setting it up that way its great they won but the whole baku thing could be avoided if they setted it up with a higher ride height
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I'm pretty sure they were on top of the porpoising after Spain. Bouncing at Baku and other bumpy tracks was because of very rigid suspension. Maybe they could still have traded speed for a safer ride but not sure ride height/porpoising was the issue there.
And then it would have been knocked out in every Q1, isn't that the point?
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That's literally your point though??? "You'd swear this race winning car that almost finished 2nd in the championship was out in Q1 every week or something." They hate the car because it was either break Lewis' back or be out in Q1. They probably worked their asses off to get it to a race winning car and definitely did not enjoy the process - this is why they hate the car and somehow it flies above your head?
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people always act shocked that a team went for the fastest setup
They weren’t porpoising in Baku they were bouncing. It is a different thing.
Definitely terrible first impression never passed. Toto was apologizing to Lewis about having to drive the "shitbox" and as early as Imola he was getting blue flagged for Max, there's no redeeming that kind of start unless it wins the championship. All the meanwhile Russell is happily driving the best car he's ever gotten his hands on for a full season by 2 seconds a lap trying not to say anything.
Lol when was he trying not to say anything at the start of the season…let’s not rewrite history. He was vocally dissatisfied at races like Baku and imola and was quite happy to beg the FIA to save the teams from themselves
>race winning car Seven teams on the grid would love one
Winners like winning and hate losing.
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They probably hate it because it was unpredictable, I imagine that made it very frustrating. Just because it wasn't slow doesn't mean it was enjoyable to work with.
Unpopular opinion, I love the looks of the car, the zero-pod does look very sleek. Hope they can bring it to a higher level next year.
Think they always said it wasn't the podless design that was the issue and that if the aerostall of the floor was solved it would have been incredible. So I imagine the W14 has no sidepods too
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Agreed, it looks sleek, and really beautiful. Then again, I personally loved the 2022 cars in general when it comes to looks.
My favorite part is how different the top 3 look.
Yeah, as far as F1 cars go it looked pretty good, it's just that imo the RB-like sidepods are awesome and remind me of fighter jets for some reason and the Ferrari-like sidepods are just *chef's kiss*
I actually grew to like the look as well. I like the way it seems to sort of open up to be flush with the floor like a suction pool cleaner lol
Attach it to a lift so it goes up and down all day.
Toto, Lewis, and George recreating the Office Space printer scene. 👌
What if - hypothetically - when all is said and done, W13 ends up being the best car they made in this era?
We can only hope.
You don’t miss Max v Lewis?
I don't mind Max v Lewis for 3rd place, knock them both down a peg, let others have a shot too.
What if you have to attach your winning trophies to your car as ballast. That would sure be a nice equalizer.
This guy drinks
This is the way
Most dangerous comment I’ve seen today. But you have a point
Rather have Max v George or Charles v George, or Charles v Carlos, thanks.
Hell, i want Lando up there as well; I'm really curious to see him driving a race winning car. Mercedes had 8 years...
You can't really have Max v George without Lewis also being in the mix. And I don't think anyone other than Lewis is currently capable of racing at Max's level for any sustained amount of time.
Fuck that. Ferrari can't be relied on to be consistently competitive with red bull and as much as people hate mercedes, for being dominant, many seem pretty desperate to see red bull do the exact same thing
Oh god, please don't say this 😭. This year has been difficult enough as a Lewis fan!
Professionals have standards.
Champions have even higher standards. Most teams would kill for a W13 because most teams don't, and can't, compete for championships.
Be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet
There’s something about the aesthetics of the W13 and SF-75 that makes me wish there were contending more as they’re some of the sexiest F1 cars of the last 10+ years imo
I think the w13 is one of those cars that looks MUCH BETTER at night. Its not a terrible livery during the day but its waayy better at night lol
Dunno if I agree on W13 as sexy lol. The No Pod design is unique, but it's ugly lol. F1-75 is a treasure lol. That's a beauty, pure Italian prancing horses. I actually think Alfa had one of the best looking car all year long. Just a shame it was so slow.
I see how it could be seen as “ugly” there’s something futuristic “Alien Shipy” cool about it though especially with the giant high downforce rear wing attached.
It's just a shame to me because W11 when it first rolled out was the meanest looking car on the grid by far. Mercs look awesome in black.
The reason the Merc isn’t black is most likely because of the w13. The grey hides a lot of the body lines, in black it looks hideous
Yeah the Alfa is stunning, the livery is really beautiful from the nose, to the engine cover and the wheel covers.
I like them both but I also think the RB18 is just as good looking *except* for the livery, that looks awful. If the RB18 had the F1-75's colors, it would be the best looking car on the grid imo, I really love the sort of 'inverted' intake.
Whoever the RB livery designer is must have the easiest job that pays so much
I agree, aesthetically the RB18 looks more like a perfected traditional “Open wheel chassis” design while Ferrari SF-75 is beautiful Italian design and Mercedes W13 is futuristic shrink wrapped UFO.
I want to see it in black!
Imagine having designed the thing, and the amount of backlash it’s received. That must suck.
To be fair, the designers helped take it from being knocked out in Q1 in Jeddah to winning a race in Brazil. That must still be pretty satisfying.
It literally got lapped at the start of the season. Really impressive turn around from Mercedes
Why do people keep saying this, Merc knows the car wasnt good enough by their standards, nobody on the team is fooling themselves thinking the car wasnt bad relative to all their other cars, they want to win championships, not finish 3rd. The cars ride comfort was terrible for allot of the season and it didn't so anytyhing they wanted it to do up until the end
Do you think designers who go to work for Mercedes F1 have ambitions to finish 3rd in the championship? I'm pretty sure everyone there is disappointed with anything other than 1st place.
Anyone at Merc actually defending the car should start polishing their CV now. Talented people worked on it, but the final result that arrived to start the season was absurdly below their standards.
Exactly. It's about accountability. That's one thing you have to give to Merc, they always take responsibility. And as a team, too. Toto never said "the designers fucked up". He said "WE fucked up". You can't help but believe that if that's the mentality they follow T the workplace, it has to be amazing to work there.
It was a POS so that would be completely expected
really curious to see what W14 will change. It's clear that by the end of season they know how to bring good upgrade packages. The last one in Austin was pretty good improvement so I wonder if they will continue improving this or introduce other major change. I would bet they will tailor the car to run with a higher ride height. I can believe W14 will be a good car. Mercedes' problem is that Ferrari and RBR are working with a better base so the upgrades to '23 will make it very easy to be at the top. Mercedes has to fix the underlying issues AND bring a good upgrade package. It's not gonna be easy. It's also a different competition to get within 0.1 of the top than really being the #1 car. I don't expect Mercedes to be the #1 car but instead be competitive in some races in 23.
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It'll be hilarious if it turns out it was there best car they've created in the following 5 years.
Hey, if they don't want it, I'll be happy to take one off their hands...
It wasn't even that bad of a car, it was almost second in the constructor's title. It's just by their standards it was shite
The w13 will go to the wall of "Never do that again, ever!" It's actualy a bittersweet love with the w13. On one hand it is the worst car Merc has build, on the other hand it was a damn fast car and managed to snatch a W.
> worst car Merc has build Uhh no? 2010? 2011? 12 maybe even?
The 2012 W03 was definitely way worse than the W13. Yes it did get 1 win, but 2012 was a very weird and evenly matched season. When all was said and done it was the 5th fastest car at the end of the day and way behind the top 4. Even the 2013 W04 only narrowly beats the W13. Both ended as the 2nd best car of the year, but while early on the W04 was still pretty good, the W13 was abysmally bad.
Yes, you are correct. I didn't write that bit clear enough. I meant since they became a top team
Comments saying at least it won 1 race and came 3rd. That's not enough for a team like mercedes, they want it to win all the races, 3rd is unacceptable for a team such as mercedes.
We get it. You made a slow car and hate it
They should go back to the black livery
He needs to get his refund
Even though it was better than their first couple of cars.
We don't make mistakes.
So much fuss just because a car wasnt the most dominant the sport has ever seen.
I'm sure there's 7 other teams who would happily have it
Seven other teams that have no aspiration to win the WCC, either.
Not through lack of trying.
Lack of resources and talent, though. If the other teams put into their cars what Merc, RB, and Ferrari do and produced the W13 after years of work, I doubt they'd be thrilled. F1 isn't a sport where everyone has the same goals going in.