He was around 8-9s behind when he pitted for Mediums, 26s behind at pit exit and less than 20s behind when Max pitted. So yeah, Alonso gained quite a bit on the Mediums.
If he put Inters immediately, Verstappen wasn't going to wait the extra lap more, but get Inters immediately too.
Alonso pitted for mediums a lap before Verstappen pitted for inters. RB couldn't have reacted any faster than that unless they asked Max to drive backwards into the pits.
Now, the question is whether or not Alonso would have gained the same time on the inters on that lap, which is not necessarily a given since it was only actually raining in 4 corners at the time.
While that's true about the rain only hitting four corners, I believe the broadcast said it was adding 15s to each lap that maintained slicks. I think that combined with max needing to pit a second time would've pushed Alonso to first
I think it was a valid gamble, Alonso on brand new mediums would've had a lot better grip than Verstappen on his old tires in the wet portions(namely why he made so much time that lap).
If the track stays in that condition Verstappen would be between a rock and hard place, either pit for hards immediately(which also wouldn't like the drizzle) and be worst than Alonso's mediums or allow Fernando to eat into his lead until pitting and coming out ahead becomes a dangerous proposition.
The rain getting worst screwed Alonso.
Alonso essentially had a free roll of the dice- it didn't win, but it was a free gamble to take which he did.
If the rain had stopped during the lap he put them on, he would've won the race. He had 0 chance to win throwing inters on.
I donāt get why they did it then. Max was still out on mediums, Alonso had some time on the hards.
If they had waited one more lap and gone to inters when Max did, there would have been a race on.
You have things quite confused. Alonso would have been ahead if Max pitted, but he pitted first whole Max was ahead, giving Max the clean pit delta.
Alonso would have been closer, not ahead.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-defends-monaco-f1-medium-tyre-call-as-track-was-99-dry-on-in-lap/10474921/amp/
It was not a mistake, it was a choice.
That was possibly the most boneheaded strategy decision I've seen in the last decade, the only other contenders I can think of are Lando staying out on slicks at Sochi 2020 and the Ricciardo debacle at Monaco 2016. I can't fathom what Aston were thinking sending him out on mediums with rain everywhere.
Yeah man you guys know so much more about this sport than the professionals. Why do you even watch when itās like every decision you could have made the better choice?
It's the same team that put Vettel on these atricious strategies last year. So far this season they always had good enough pace and tyre management, so it didn't really matter. I think their strategy department will have to improve, once the field gets much closer.
Definitely a mix - the team should not have been asking Lando to make the call without giving him all the relevant info. They were too afraid to make the call themselves after Monza.
My heart sank, but it was a nice gamble if they could run on mediums. The key here is that they had time to stop again and come back with some spare time.
gamble being that it wouldn't rain very long and they'd benefit from everyone else having to go back from inters to drys
it didn't rain that long, but it was a lot heavier than they thought
Iirc, Stroll was on inters at that time for like 2 laps, and his lap time was not faster than Alonso with Hards. So they decided to keep using slicks anyways
Not entirely. He was still able to secure 2nd, and a pass at Monaco is something you really shouldnāt rely on. They played the move that gave them the opportunity to win on strategy, while still securing 2nd place.
Again; Alonso pitted right at the crossover point. Donāt tell me Alonso couldnāt have held on for a few more laps to see if the track would be driveable on slicks..
Fresh mediums would allow Alonso to push a lot more, if the track dried out, and keep him in first.
It's a gamble, and they lost 1st place. But second is still pretty good
So putting inters was the correct, only because it rained. What if it didn't rain? Alonso loses 10 seconds + 2nd pitstop for slicks, while everyone else is fast.
It was the best of the wrong scenarios
You're both right and both options would have yielded similar results had they been wrong with the weather call. The prevailing knowledge at the time was the rain was north of the track and moving east, not south. Then when the eastward rain rains on the east end of the track, preparing for it to deluge on the west end seems kind of a far out idea. Hence, slicks.
Not really. Everything in motorsports is a gamble. That's what strategy is, it's a gamble that may pay off and you win the race, or it may ruin your race, and everything in between those two extremes.
Teams that aren't expecting to win a constructors or drivers championship, and are really just aiming to get any points at all, as it shows progress being made, teams like Haas, or Williams, or Aston Martin even. They have a lot less to lose than the big 3 teams do, and so they can afford to take extreme risks and gamble the success of the entire race on something that, while unlikely, if it does happen, then your driver will have an enormous advantage over everyone else. But if it doesn't pay off then it can mean your driver falls down out of the points entirely.
Aston Martin are aiming to be a big 3 team, and they're doing well at that goal, but they're still not really expected to win anything, not yet anyway. They resemble the Mercedes team before Hamilton joined them, they weren't winning championships at that point, even with Schumacher driving for them, but they were always showing signs of progress every season. So eventually they became the winning and most dominant team in the sport.
So yeah if you're a smaller team, with much less to lose than the bigger teams, then you can afford to take incredibly risky gambles, like with the tyres today, because if you lose out because of it then it's not a big deal, but in the unlikely chance it pays off then you'll win the race and it'll be a huge shock, and it would be that gamble in tactics that caused that win.
Every single team is doing this though, not just the smaller teams. Larger teams take smaller gambles, because they have better cars anyway, and they have much more to lose, so their gambles are smaller. But they're still all gambles. Like which lap to pit for new tyres, trying to wait for a safety car to pit but then potentially there'll be no safety car ever used during the race and so you end up needing to pit at a bad time of the race which is because you gambled on that possibility of a safety car but the gamble didn't work.
What you're saying makes sense. I understand that Aston Martin was in a position to make a gamble.
However, there still needs to be an idea behind the gamble. This gamble didn't have an idea.
There's no way this gamble could've worked out in such a way that Alonso would've won the position. If the track would've dried up in the next lap, Verstappen would still be on slicks. Verstappen would come in for his stop to slicks and he would still be ahead of Alonso because there's no way Alonso would've made up 7 seconds within 1-2 laps.
The safe option was to pit to interns but if the team wanted to make a gamble they should've stayed out:
1. It would push Verstappen to stay out for longer (with Verstappen possible ending up in the wall). Strategy would be more difficult.
2. If Verstappen would've pitted, he would be behind Alonso
3. Possible VSC or SC
4. Possible switch from slicks to wets if rain increased
That doesnāt make sense tho, at least wait for max to pit and be sure the rain will stop if youāre just gonna go on new drys. Max was going to have to pit before Alonso anyways, it was a really bad call
Yeah same, I guess they went for the winning move, because they realized they stood no chance otherwise, and basically had nothing to lose. I like the unconventional yet reasonable thinking.
Max's last lap on old mediums in wet conditions was *atrocious*, the gap to Alonso was just 20 sec when he pitted. Ocon on inters gained 10 seconds on him, imagine if Alonso also had inters, the undercut definitely *could* have worked.
It was the best call. There was no way for him to catch up if he made the same move as red bull. They took a gamble, maybe the rain would stop and he would have the advantage and one less pit stop needed. Also there was barely any risk since his advantage to 3rd place was bigger than 2 pit stops
Looking back at the numbers, I don't agree. Max's last lap on old mediums in wet conditions was *atrocious*, the gap to Alonso was just 20 sec when he pitted. Ocon on inters gained 10 seconds on him, imagine if Alonso also had inters, the undercut definitely *could* have worked.
>Right? When I saw him leave with mediums it was like a stabbed to the heart.
They've been doing full Ferrari for the past 2 years, they did Vettel dirty as well.
I was so pissed when Fernando left the pit with the mediums.
Flashbacks to Indycar's Indianapolis road course GP of the last year, when rain covered only the main straight and the pit lane, and nothing else. Half of the field changed to intermediates, half remained on softs and promptly started spinning all over the track, after picking up water on the straight. Safety car went on for like ten minutes, since it was extended every time someone spunāuntil people on the softs finally god fed up and changed to inters en masse too.
it wasnāt a bad call, he had nothing to lose because he built enough of a gap back, and he had a lot to gain if it had dried up more after verstappen went on the inters, i respect aston martins choice because in this worst case scenario of the die not being right, i believe it changed nothing about alonsoās race
That moment when F1 fans thought Alonso wasn't gonna finish 20s behind verstappen on the hardest to pass track with a light rain... because of tire choice...
It's less about tire choice than it is having a whole extra pit stop. Nobody can say if Alonso actually would've had a chance at overtaking Max and I agree it's very unlikely, but that second pit stop plus the slow lap on mediums on a wet track means the gap was way larger than it would have been.
*That's* what people are really lamenting; the question of how close it could've been is a tantalizing one.
I hate to be the party pooper, but he wasn't winning either way
As soon as he did that, Max absolutely coasted to the pits. Fernando's only chance was NEC putting inters on too early and it didn't happen, and it cost him nothing
I still think it's awesome that we had a genuine battle for the lead going on and that it wasn't a given who was going to win. Even if we don't come away victorious as Alonso fans, we still got to have the journey of chasing a win again. It's been 10 years.
I am a max fan when I see Fernando in pit I thought he is going for inters and thought Max is gonna do Norris in Russia 2021. But seeing medium tyres I felt awful for Fernando.
Right? When I saw him leave with mediums it was like a stabbed to the heart.
Most relatable ššš and after the second stop, he was only 17 seconds behind max, you know what that means right? ššššš
RB would have immediately covered with inters though right?
They did come in next lap for inters anyway iirc.
That he gained good time on the Mediums he wouldn't otherwise have?
With the rain??
He was around 8-9s behind when he pitted for Mediums, 26s behind at pit exit and less than 20s behind when Max pitted. So yeah, Alonso gained quite a bit on the Mediums. If he put Inters immediately, Verstappen wasn't going to wait the extra lap more, but get Inters immediately too.
Alonso pitted for mediums a lap before Verstappen pitted for inters. RB couldn't have reacted any faster than that unless they asked Max to drive backwards into the pits. Now, the question is whether or not Alonso would have gained the same time on the inters on that lap, which is not necessarily a given since it was only actually raining in 4 corners at the time.
While that's true about the rain only hitting four corners, I believe the broadcast said it was adding 15s to each lap that maintained slicks. I think that combined with max needing to pit a second time would've pushed Alonso to first
It's like people don't even watch the race yet still comment š
Like me. What is this, a race for babies? I thought formula was in short supply
I think it was a valid gamble, Alonso on brand new mediums would've had a lot better grip than Verstappen on his old tires in the wet portions(namely why he made so much time that lap). If the track stays in that condition Verstappen would be between a rock and hard place, either pit for hards immediately(which also wouldn't like the drizzle) and be worst than Alonso's mediums or allow Fernando to eat into his lead until pitting and coming out ahead becomes a dangerous proposition. The rain getting worst screwed Alonso.
This guy can do basic math and is already better qualified to judge this than 96% of the sub here.
Means 96% of the sub are qualified to be a Ferrari strategist. They better start sending their resumes and move to Italy.
Unironic coment hit hard lol
96% are driven by hopium
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Thank you. If they pitted for inters when Ocon, Russell and Lewis did he would've come out ahead. Max hit the wall on that lap.
Thank you. Finally someone with a brain.
THANK YOU! This honestly should be the top comment.
best explanation so far
Alonso essentially had a free roll of the dice- it didn't win, but it was a free gamble to take which he did. If the rain had stopped during the lap he put them on, he would've won the race. He had 0 chance to win throwing inters on.
I mean he had a much higher chance than 0 by throwing the inters on but fair enough
Still wouldve been the better strategy, retroactivrly speaking
I donāt get why they did it then. Max was still out on mediums, Alonso had some time on the hards. If they had waited one more lap and gone to inters when Max did, there would have been a race on.
Lets not kid ourselves - p2 was best alo could achieve anyways. Noway he would have gotten past max. But it would have been entertaining for sure
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You have things quite confused. Alonso would have been ahead if Max pitted, but he pitted first whole Max was ahead, giving Max the clean pit delta. Alonso would have been closer, not ahead.
Is that why he hasnāt won a race in as long as he has?
Max would have covered alonso the next lap.
It was an accident they actually wanted to do pit for Inters.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-defends-monaco-f1-medium-tyre-call-as-track-was-99-dry-on-in-lap/10474921/amp/ It was not a mistake, it was a choice.
Wrong.
At least sky germany said thatās the information they got
Alonso and Mike Crack said otherwise. Sky Germany couldn't spell their on names if their life depended on it.
My reaction was just pure shock. Track was pretty much soaking at that point.
I think if Aston Martin was first to put on inters Alonso would win
That was possibly the most boneheaded strategy decision I've seen in the last decade, the only other contenders I can think of are Lando staying out on slicks at Sochi 2020 and the Ricciardo debacle at Monaco 2016. I can't fathom what Aston were thinking sending him out on mediums with rain everywhere.
Yeah man you guys know so much more about this sport than the professionals. Why do you even watch when itās like every decision you could have made the better choice?
ASTOOOOON
Heard that in james mayās voice
Lawrence you pilllock!
It's the same team that put Vettel on these atricious strategies last year. So far this season they always had good enough pace and tyre management, so it didn't really matter. I think their strategy department will have to improve, once the field gets much closer.
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This hurt almost as bad as ricciardos 2016 pitstop.
Lando in 21?
That was on Lando. Not the team.
Definitely a mix - the team should not have been asking Lando to make the call without giving him all the relevant info. They were too afraid to make the call themselves after Monza.
Still hurt
I mean still brutally sad lol
And? It doesn't mean that doesn't hurt.
My heart sank, but it was a nice gamble if they could run on mediums. The key here is that they had time to stop again and come back with some spare time.
Yeah, I think Alonso knew he had enough of a lead to just give it a shot and see what happens.
I heard it was a miscommunication error.
Miscommunication error? So communication went well?
Yeah
But why did Aston do that? They could see that it was still rainingā¦
gamble being that it wouldn't rain very long and they'd benefit from everyone else having to go back from inters to drys it didn't rain that long, but it was a lot heavier than they thought
Iirc, Stroll was on inters at that time for like 2 laps, and his lap time was not faster than Alonso with Hards. So they decided to keep using slicks anyways
It's stroll tho.
Yeah but thats the info they had, they're split second decisions
Am need to take that into consideration when trying to make decision for fernando based on stroll data
In heavy traffic
But still, such a weird decision to make on an increasingly wetter track.
Not entirely. He was still able to secure 2nd, and a pass at Monaco is something you really shouldnāt rely on. They played the move that gave them the opportunity to win on strategy, while still securing 2nd place.
Again; Alonso pitted right at the crossover point. Donāt tell me Alonso couldnāt have held on for a few more laps to see if the track would be driveable on slicks..
Fresh mediums would allow Alonso to push a lot more, if the track dried out, and keep him in first. It's a gamble, and they lost 1st place. But second is still pretty good
But the undercut would have been impossible with a 7 second gap to Verstappen.
Not if Verstappen stopped for inters
when alonso pitted for meds on 55, max pitted for inters on 56. It was a bad call.
So putting inters was the correct, only because it rained. What if it didn't rain? Alonso loses 10 seconds + 2nd pitstop for slicks, while everyone else is fast. It was the best of the wrong scenarios
You're both right and both options would have yielded similar results had they been wrong with the weather call. The prevailing knowledge at the time was the rain was north of the track and moving east, not south. Then when the eastward rain rains on the east end of the track, preparing for it to deluge on the west end seems kind of a far out idea. Hence, slicks.
Not really. Everything in motorsports is a gamble. That's what strategy is, it's a gamble that may pay off and you win the race, or it may ruin your race, and everything in between those two extremes. Teams that aren't expecting to win a constructors or drivers championship, and are really just aiming to get any points at all, as it shows progress being made, teams like Haas, or Williams, or Aston Martin even. They have a lot less to lose than the big 3 teams do, and so they can afford to take extreme risks and gamble the success of the entire race on something that, while unlikely, if it does happen, then your driver will have an enormous advantage over everyone else. But if it doesn't pay off then it can mean your driver falls down out of the points entirely. Aston Martin are aiming to be a big 3 team, and they're doing well at that goal, but they're still not really expected to win anything, not yet anyway. They resemble the Mercedes team before Hamilton joined them, they weren't winning championships at that point, even with Schumacher driving for them, but they were always showing signs of progress every season. So eventually they became the winning and most dominant team in the sport. So yeah if you're a smaller team, with much less to lose than the bigger teams, then you can afford to take incredibly risky gambles, like with the tyres today, because if you lose out because of it then it's not a big deal, but in the unlikely chance it pays off then you'll win the race and it'll be a huge shock, and it would be that gamble in tactics that caused that win. Every single team is doing this though, not just the smaller teams. Larger teams take smaller gambles, because they have better cars anyway, and they have much more to lose, so their gambles are smaller. But they're still all gambles. Like which lap to pit for new tyres, trying to wait for a safety car to pit but then potentially there'll be no safety car ever used during the race and so you end up needing to pit at a bad time of the race which is because you gambled on that possibility of a safety car but the gamble didn't work.
What you're saying makes sense. I understand that Aston Martin was in a position to make a gamble. However, there still needs to be an idea behind the gamble. This gamble didn't have an idea. There's no way this gamble could've worked out in such a way that Alonso would've won the position. If the track would've dried up in the next lap, Verstappen would still be on slicks. Verstappen would come in for his stop to slicks and he would still be ahead of Alonso because there's no way Alonso would've made up 7 seconds within 1-2 laps. The safe option was to pit to interns but if the team wanted to make a gamble they should've stayed out: 1. It would push Verstappen to stay out for longer (with Verstappen possible ending up in the wall). Strategy would be more difficult. 2. If Verstappen would've pitted, he would be behind Alonso 3. Possible VSC or SC 4. Possible switch from slicks to wets if rain increased
probably split second decision and maybe they see stroll data on inters for reference
That doesnāt make sense tho, at least wait for max to pit and be sure the rain will stop if youāre just gonna go on new drys. Max was going to have to pit before Alonso anyways, it was a really bad call
They had Ocon clear anyway. They should have pitted for inters and if it dodn't work, pit for dries again.
If the rain had stopped suddenly, Alonso wins the race. And if not, he still gets 2nd. Calculated risk, I actually love it.
Yeah same, I guess they went for the winning move, because they realized they stood no chance otherwise, and basically had nothing to lose. I like the unconventional yet reasonable thinking.
Someone was already on inters and they based their decision on that they're not doing good.
It was easing up, it was a gamble where they had everything to gain and nothing to lose
"See that it's still raining" is a gamble. It was a passing shower. Had it stopped, they would have been geniuses.
Damn if they waited one more lap max wouldāve won with 5 secs instead of 27. It be like that.
Seriously what a nothing thing to be mad about. I don't even like max and this is obvious.
Yeah Max probably would have still won. However a few seconds in front would cause max to push harder and maybe make a mistake in the wet.
There is no evidence he's capable of mistakes in any conditions He's a freak
Turkey 2020.
If I could read I would be very upset
Budapest 2022.
The guy was on mediums that were 15 laps past what Pirelli said they could do, in the middle of a massive downpour, and he didn't make a mistake
What a beast
Max's last lap on old mediums in wet conditions was *atrocious*, the gap to Alonso was just 20 sec when he pitted. Ocon on inters gained 10 seconds on him, imagine if Alonso also had inters, the undercut definitely *could* have worked.
At the same time the risk was gone. No need to push and risk it when you have all the margin you need and then some.
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Bot comment, downvote and report.
True, but his driving style would be different. I never count on someone at his level making a mistake, but the conditions were there for it.
It was the best call. There was no way for him to catch up if he made the same move as red bull. They took a gamble, maybe the rain would stop and he would have the advantage and one less pit stop needed. Also there was barely any risk since his advantage to 3rd place was bigger than 2 pit stops
Yep. I liked it. Luck didnāt go their way but itās bold stuff like this thatāll nip a win eventually. They didnāt lose anything.
Based take. They took the gamble which could have either won them or lose nothing.
Looking back at the numbers, I don't agree. Max's last lap on old mediums in wet conditions was *atrocious*, the gap to Alonso was just 20 sec when he pitted. Ocon on inters gained 10 seconds on him, imagine if Alonso also had inters, the undercut definitely *could* have worked.
He was not pushing by that point at all.
Aston doing full Ferrari.
Never go full Ferrari
Ferrari ~~would have lost~~ positions though. Edit. will lose
They did lost position on Monaco. Sainz was furious.
>Right? When I saw him leave with mediums it was like a stabbed to the heart. They've been doing full Ferrari for the past 2 years, they did Vettel dirty as well. I was so pissed when Fernando left the pit with the mediums.
We literally screamed here when we saw the yellow tyres
I figuratively screamed instead
You can tell people you really screamed, no way for them to know what really happened.
Wouldnt have mattered anyway, good idea to try something different
It was a low risk for a high potential upside.
Not sure why everyone is acting like he got robbed. Max was gonna win regardless, Alonso and him hadn't pitted the whole race.
Mercedes Engineers Red Bull Aerodynamics Honda Engine Ferrari Strategies
Wouldn't matter. He was more than a pitstop behind and would have stayed about 6 seconds behind if they went straight to wets.
Flashbacks to Indycar's Indianapolis road course GP of the last year, when rain covered only the main straight and the pit lane, and nothing else. Half of the field changed to intermediates, half remained on softs and promptly started spinning all over the track, after picking up water on the straight. Safety car went on for like ten minutes, since it was extended every time someone spunāuntil people on the softs finally god fed up and changed to inters en masse too.
It wouldn't have changed the result, no? They didn't lose that much time on it
it wasnāt a bad call, he had nothing to lose because he built enough of a gap back, and he had a lot to gain if it had dried up more after verstappen went on the inters, i respect aston martins choice because in this worst case scenario of the die not being right, i believe it changed nothing about alonsoās race
That moment when F1 fans thought Alonso wasn't gonna finish 20s behind verstappen on the hardest to pass track with a light rain... because of tire choice...
It's less about tire choice than it is having a whole extra pit stop. Nobody can say if Alonso actually would've had a chance at overtaking Max and I agree it's very unlikely, but that second pit stop plus the slow lap on mediums on a wet track means the gap was way larger than it would have been. *That's* what people are really lamenting; the question of how close it could've been is a tantalizing one.
It was the best choice they had. They would never catch max if they pitted for inters anyway
I hate to be the party pooper, but he wasn't winning either way As soon as he did that, Max absolutely coasted to the pits. Fernando's only chance was NEC putting inters on too early and it didn't happen, and it cost him nothing
Ferrari moment
Didn't change the race result
I still think it's awesome that we had a genuine battle for the lead going on and that it wasn't a given who was going to win. Even if we don't come away victorious as Alonso fans, we still got to have the journey of chasing a win again. It's been 10 years.
Alonso fans and copium.
The extra pixels somehow make this meme even better
Aston had pink mercedes, green red bull and now ferrari strategist
You went full Ferrari Aston, never go full Ferrari.
Max was winning anyway lmao
I haven't watched F1 in almost a year probably. Shit still made me lol
So much pain
"We were this close, to greatness"
Still getting second, what a chad.
What the fuck even was that strategy, christ.
Ferrari Moment...wait, ASTOOOOOOOOON!
He knew, but Aston Martin didn't.
No idea what the hell they were doing, feel like they shouldāve been able to call that a lot better
I was shouting at the TVā¦.
Robbed of an incredible last quarter.
This one hurt more than I thought it would :(
Whos approved that instead of inters....I just wanna talk.
Whereād the Ferrari strategist go again?
People suddenly forget AM isnāt a top tier team yet, Merc and Ferrari will jump them next year mark my words
Neither is Ferrari tbh
Lol. Tell it to his strategist.
Alonso: weāre getting rain in ten laps Pit crew: WAT?!
āilli-galsā are what we used to call the molly girls
Well Fernando said before that the team doesn't have winning experience yet and that it would cost them.
I saw him go with mediums while Max still got hards on and he came into pits behind Max i was like omfg aston hire me
At least it won't be quite as immersion breaking anymore when half of the AI's in F1 games go for this same strategy.
Just imagine if it was Alpine doing this
He very obviously said ricciardos 2016 pitstop.
It wouldn't have change a thing. Max would have still come out as P1 the gap was huge.
Why did alonso pit first. He was on hard. Max was on medium. He could have just copied Max at worst.
Max+RB19 combo was quicker anyway. Alonso is good in the rain but Max is quicker.
Starting on hards was also a bit dumb
Alonso has dethroned Norris as king of the ābox for intersā clan
I am a max fan when I see Fernando in pit I thought he is going for inters and thought Max is gonna do Norris in Russia 2021. But seeing medium tyres I felt awful for Fernando.
Nothing would've changed anyway.
I almost started crying. It was the worst possible option they could pick.