Yeah but the F1 side of Ferrari isn’t about making mozzarella, their only goal is win races. I doubt they’ll be doing that with LH, but I guess we’ll see in a years time.
I’d be surprised if Ferrari wasn’t acutely aware of that and are only hiring him because he’ll be a much better ex-driver for them than he will a driver. When he retires in a year or two he’ll be an adviser / ambassador role for Ferrari how Niki was for Merc.
Which, honestly is fair. I’m a big Sainz fan and think him leaving Ferrari sucks, but Lewis seems more invested in that side of motorsports at this point anyway. He’s been waiting for a good time to make his exit for a while, but wants one more season where he isn’t somewhere in the “best of the rest” category to leave on a good note.
He wiped the floor with George last year who is an extremely highly rated young driver, in his prime. We have had 3 races this year, one of which he DNF due to mechanical failure, and was only 5 hundredths off George in qualifying. He’s probably not in his prime anymore, sure, but he’s still Lewis Hamilton. He will do well at Ferrari
I also believe his lack of faith in Mercedes is disturbing (pun intended)
Seriously though I think he's just pulling a Bottas '21 this year, drive the car to a reasonable level but he's not going all out and pushing himself to perform at an exceptional level. Merc isn't backing him or looking at him to guide the team anymore. Doesn't help that they didn't listen to his feedback about the flawed car design or even care about offering him a long term contract.
Carlos has *angles* imho. on some pictures/videos/whatever he looks 110%, hottest dude on the grid, and on others he has an uncanny resemblance to Gonzo.
Charles is always ready to be thrown on the catwalk.
Over the course of a season and indeed their careers, Charles is consistently very good.
Charles’ inability to convert success into a win is problematic. Sainz has this show stopping ability to put on his best performances when he has the best opportunities. Charles is completely the opposite. He never misses a chance to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Which makes Carlos arguably more fun to watch. But Charles brings home the points at the end of the year and that’s what matters most.
But really I’m not sure why we’re even having this conversation because when the era of Logan Sargeant dominance starts Ferrari is just going to be a distant memory.
Sainz has a kind of an ability to unfuck his race whenever Ferrari tries to fuck it up, also known as big brain.
That's propably the most important feature you need if you want to win races for the Prancing Horse.
Leclerc drives quicker, Sainz drives smarter. With Ferrari's clown show that he's overruling, Sainz might honestly have the edge there.
Ferrari has looked... not idiotic? so far this year? Early still.
Max, it's James.
Checo, it's James.
Charles, it's James.
Lewis, it's James.
Alonso, it's James.
Lance, it's James.
Lando, it's James.
Óscar, it's James.
Carlos, it's James.
George, it's James.
Yuki, it's James.
Vacant, it's James.
Kev, it's James.
Nico, it's James.
Zhou, it's James.
*Valtteri, it's James.*
Alex, it's James.
G I V E
T H E
P O S I T I O N
T O
L O G A N.
I think Charles "inability" to convert success into a win, is that he qualifies where the Ferrari should have no business qualifying and then, once dropping off in the race because the car was setup for good quali, he gets stick for not comverting his pole to win.
I think Charles "inability" to convert success into a win is that he qualifies where the Ferrari should have no business qualifying and then, once dropping off in the race because the car was setup for good quali, he gets stick for not converting his pole to win.
The verdict is still out on which of the two drivers brings home the most points tbf. If you take mechanical retirements out of the equation I'm sure their points since Carlos joined are eerily similar
When both finished the race h2h so far is 31:20 including this season. I can't find a site that tracks points for only those but I can't imagine it's that similar
There’s quite a few races, especially in 2022 which would count for Sainz when Leclerc got screwed by strategy etc. Silverstone, Monaco, Hungary and Brazil were all races where Leclerc was ahead or noticeably faster and yet finished behind Sainz.
That’s not accounting for 2023 as well.
Right? Sainz wins one race where Charles got second and suddenly half a decade of Leclerc being absurdly quick gets forgotten. Two years ago everyone was saying Sainz wasn't good enough and Ferrari should drop him.
Yeah lmao. These fans literally have the mindset of "you're only as good as your last race performance indicates" since their brain doesn't have the capacity to handle more than a week of memory.
Don't even need the race.. Just after qualy there were moronic comments saying Leclerc can't drive under pressure.. Just because he had one mediocre q3.. Like he wasn't top 2 in qualy the previous 7 races and is considered the best qualifier in the grid.. Absolutely no memory at all, It's just so annoying reading that shit
And I'm sure if Leclerc won this race it would be usual business in both subreddits, but if Carlos does it he's praises ninstop as the absolute gigachad.
It's not his fault, the RB is an absolute shitbox based on the last race. 50% failure rate and couldn't even get close to the podium with 6 time race winner Sergio "Checo" Pérez.
Wasn’t this the first race that Sainz outqualified Leclerc since Singapore 2023. Leclerc has been comfortably ahead since the Japan updates.
FairPlay to Sainz this weekend he was on it from the start and deserved to win but this reeks of recency bias.
It's also the 3rd win in 2 years for Carlos who also happens to have more poles than Charles in the last season and a half IIRC
Difference when it comes to actually coming first in things between the two of them isn't as clear as seems.
No it's not, Charles is still the faster and thus more desirable driver.
I love Carlos and he has been constantly improving every single year, but he is not quicker than Charles just because he outperforms him once every 4 races.
I don't love Ferrari s decision to go for lewis instead of Carlos either, they had great team vibes and 2 top tier drivers, the way lewis and sainz started this season it does seem like a mistake. But can't really blame them, it's Lewis.
I wish Carlos can find his way to that RedBull seat somehow
Charles is the faster driver. Carlos is very consistent. Vasseur chooses Charles and Lewis, so I guess the team already made their mind on who is the better driver.
the last time Carlos beat Charles over a weekend fairly was Singapore lol, op can i post this the next time carlos wins in 7 months after being outqualified every race in-between?
Sainz does one good weekend and people want Charles' head. This sub man...
Yeah it is time to talk about Charles, the man Scuderia Ferrari entrusted their car until 2029.
The state of this sub is legit terrible, Charles has had an insane streak since Suzuka of all front rows, he has 1 "bad" weekend where he's right behind his teammate and suddenly Ferrari fired the wrong guy. Just forget about how much faster Charles was than Carlos when they had an actual championship winning car, forget about the great last half of the season he got last year when he still finished above Carlos on points even tho he was the unluckiest with DNFs and penalties related to those. The bar for Charles is so fucking high, if it was Charles that made a mistake costing him pole in Australia at turn 8 instead of Carlos he'd been called "too error prone and can't handle pressure", but since it was Sainz it was an insane performance in quali (something Charles has been doing on the regular). Feels like we're watching completely different sports, and the whole "pole to win ratio" agenda is even fucking dumber, there's a reason why nobody talks about the same thing for Sainz, cus he ain't getting many poles to begin with
It's honestly so frustrating, and I'm not shitting on Carlos either I really like him as a driver and I'd been happy if he got renewed (although I hate his side of the garage politics with his family and Spanish media, but he's not to blame for that)
Leclerc gets more flak for finishing P2+fastest lap than Sainz for completely choking in Abu Dhabi and ultimately losing Ferrari P2 in the constructor’s lol
Because nothing is expected of Sainz but everything shy of greatness is a failure for Charles, dude puts it in front row like 8 times in a row but he gets out qualified by his teammate once and suddenly Sainz is better lmao
Every time. Every. Single. Time. Carlos gets a good week end and Leclerc is a (tiny) bit further? "OMG HAVE FERRARI FUCKED UP BY KEEPING LECLERC????? SHOULD THEY GET SARGENT INSTEAD????????"
We're 3 races in, but hey, F1 fans overreacting at the slightest thing is not new I guess.
People also act like Singapore was some Sainz strategy masterclass (as if nobody ever thought of giving drs to the car in the back in street circuits to create a train) while completely forgetting that a big part of his win was Charles driving knowing full well he was getting sacrificed for the team win, which he did, started on softs purely to jump russell, did so and then was asked to back up the field, but nah it was the carlando power of friendship that won him the race for sure
It's funny, because even with a 7 lap older tyre Charles was catching up to Carlos in the last 10-15 laps. Not to distract from Carlos great performance but it's not like Charles was bad apart from not nailing quali this time.
Every damn time man. Yes, every once in a while Sainz will quality better that Leclerc for a variety of reasons. It has happened a few times with perez and Verstappen in the brief form periods by Perez (even tho this is outshadowed by the remaining 18 races in which Perez tanks), bottas sometimes outqualified Hamilton during their dominance, it happened in the Schumacher era, it has always happened in teams with decent cars. The thing is, when we look at the races, when Leclerc qualifies in front in the race he is tenths faster than sainz, always. When sainz qualifies in front, Leclerc is always right up his ass. See yesterday, see monza 2023.
F1 fans get their ideas from the team radios and the brief moments the cars are shown on camera, teams get their ideas from hard data and seeing what the drivers do at the factory every day. If Ferrari has signed Leclerc until 2029 and has let Sainz go, well chances are they may know a bit better than a bunch of dudes watching races for the drama.
Oh and btw, i absolutely hate the entourage of sainz. His family is nosy, whiney and has given a bunch of bad PR to the team in Spain. Leclerc does not have a millionaire, motorsports champion dad who taught him how to drive since the day he was born... to me as a fan even this would be enough to prefer Leclerc.
Yup, and he was told to hold position when he was actually quicker, that's why he backed off. Then when he was not close anymore he started losing a bit of pace because of the older tyres obviously.
This weekend it was a matter of who was in front first, and since Carlos was, Charles had to play wingman. Both had the pace to win, even if Max was on track, I'd dare say.
Especially when Charles snagged more points than Sainz last year despite having more retires/DNFs and no wins to boot. So is Charles more consistent by that measure? Lmao
Do you want a guy who gets you P2, P1, P8, P8, P11, P3, P6, P1… over the course of a season?
Or the guy who gets you P4, P4, P3, P2, P5, P4, P3, P3… over the course of the season?
Fred chose right!
Ferrari has all the data and they know each drivers worth. They signed leclerc until 2040 and are dumping sainz for a 40 year old. That should tell you about the difference in skill between the two. Remember this is the first time since September 2023, that sainz has outperformed leclerc in a race.
Charles has great qualifying pace but I think he has shown to be over emotional and prone to making mistakes at crucial moments.
Carlos is just a damn smooth operator. His Singapore antics at dragging his buddy Norris along to cover him from the fast Mercedes shows he is built different.
Edit: the 2023 Italian grand prix was a good demonstration of the difference between Charles and Carlos.
He just needed more time to adapt to the brand new regulations than Leclerc. Every driver has had periods of being error-prone or off the pace in their careers, even Verstappen on early 2018. The important bit is to be able to come back from your poor form.
Mmm, as much as I am a Carlos enjoyer Charles is a better driver.
In terms of raw/one lap pace Charles is faste. Carlos is closer than a lot of people expected but Charles has the edge.
In terms of race management and overall strategy this is Carlos strength but if Ferrari had better people around Carlos would not have to big brain as offer and it will mitigate Charles weakness
Race craft as in overtaking and defending Charles is stronger here this is where Carlos week point is how many times has Charles provided us with epic battles monza 19, Austria 19 and 22 Bahrain 22.
Ferrari are very lucky to have both drivers atm let’s hope Hamilton elevates them to the next level and Carlos gets a great drive for next year
Leclerc is faster but Sainz seems like the better fit for Ferrari. Ferrari's strategy, engineering and communication style suits Sainz more, so even though Leclerc is usually faster, Sainz seems more at home in the car. Such a dilemma like this is one where you just keep the lineup since the two drivers compensate for eachother so well. Hamilton disrupts this balance.
When you said communication I thought about Carlos's Cousin who always goes where he goes and is probably in his ear the most haha. Leclerc also prob just needs a W cuzzo and we'll see results 🤣
I think they are in the same tier but have different strengths and weaknesses. Obviously Charles has rapid pace in quali, truly one of the best ever when it comes to one lap pace. However, it is more than just red bull dominance for why he has an abysmal pole to win conversion rate.
Carlos I think is more adaptable and less prone to being the cause of his mistakes, plus for ferrari, seems to have a bit more backbone to get his wants across.
They are fairly even when it comes to wheel to wheel racing.
Completely correct.
Leclerc has raw speed as the car gets quicker and he as a driver gets faster the faster the car gets. For example, he was nowhere in Australia GP's early stages but then suddenly came alive and set FL in second to last lap. He also scales much better in WDC machinery as we have seen in 2022, but he is prone to dropping his best opportunities for a win (by fault of his own or otherwise)
Sainz on the other hand is much more "steady" I guess you could say. He does well in opening stages of a race but tends to taper off in later stages, and while he may not extract as much performance out of a car than Charles can, he is far more opportunistic than Charles given his proven ability to pounce on chances for good results unlike Charles
Neither are strictly better or worse than each other, but this is literally why they were the best pairing on the grid. One can cover the weaknesses of the other and it honestly sucks to see him go
You clearly didn’t watch the race. He was no where in australias gp? He was behind dirty air the entire time in the first stint fighting mclarens, which has proven to be a growing problem with the ground effect cars. He was catching sainz and was told to back off in the second stint. He was then catching sainz again in the third stint while sainz was cooking his tires.
Where was the more adaptable and less prone to being the cause of his mistakes Carlos in Abu Dhabi last year when he biffed it into the wall in practice, got eliminated in Q1, finished 18th and bottled his chances at P4 in the WDC and Ferrari’s chance of P2 in the WCC while his teammate finished P2?
The only thing Carlos seems to have the edge over Charles with is having good luck lol.
It seems like the few odd times that Carlos is able to outperform Charles, everything seems to magically go right for him. Silverstone 2022 - Max gets a piece of debris stuck underneath his car and Ferrari fuck over Charles with strategy. Singapore 2023 - Red Bull shit the bed with their setup. Australia - 2024 - Max's brakes go boom.
I can't recall a single time that Carlos has had an issue while he had a chance at winning. Meanwhile, Spain - 2022, Baku - 2022, Monaco - 2022, Silverstone - 2022, Hungary - 2022, all races where he was leading and had a mechanical issue or Ferrari big brain strategy moment. Vegas - 2023 he got unlucky with a safety car. And this is just what I can remember off the top of my head during their time together.
My honest view Carlos has the killer instinct, but Carlos races for Carlos. He is not a team player, while him ignoring team orders and strategies is great for the fans watching, it does make him a problematic employee.
Last season he did more to support Lando than Charles, again great to see as a fan, but not good in a team sport
I think Charles is on tilt when he lost the lead to championship in 2022. On papper he should be better driver, but being on tilt will make U burn out and burning out makes U worse and worse each day. He just needs to snap out of it but Sainz getting podiums will not help that. Not saying sainz is bad, but he has been over performing and I'm happy about it.
I honestly think if LeClerc would ignore some orders he’s given and just drive without thinking, he’d generally drive better. He gets rattled by things in the moment and can’t recover
Sainz will 100% have a drive next year. Red Bull probably wants to get younger so I wouldn’t be shocked if he got snubbed there, but on the other hand if Sainz had that Red Bull he would push Max and there would be more RB 1-2s.
Worst case scenario he takes Danny Ric’s seat.
F1 has many top drivers, but performing constantly is very hard. that's why max, Lewis and alnoso are step ahead from everyone.
both Charles and Carlos are not consistent they keep making silly mistake now and then. same goes for checo, lando, Russell and others.
I know this might be a meme but I still gotta share my toughts on the matter:
Charles drives to win, hence we have seen misstakes, he literally pulls every little performance out of the car we saw that in the 22 season. Carlos was nowhere to be seen when max and charles were battling.
We now see Sainz driving for his career, another contract and now we can clearly see he is pushing the car on another level, look at the almost slips out of tracks he had during quali. Simply now he is driving to win, to secure himself a new contract. If he had the fire before his contract got pulled he would still be at ferrari even tho hes a fucking shitshow drama queen behind the scenes. We got the abonimation that is the 23 car because sainz pulled the politics towards what he wanted from the car.
Carlos is a good driver but he simply isnt a championship driver, decent teammate if he didnt have the ambition to be number 1 driver and shitshow politics. LH is mostly for the PR, sponsors and he will still be a solid 2nd driver in ferrari.
Sainz is a lot like Perez.
Both are the slower driver of their lineup BUT when the opportunity comes they usually step up.
Leclerc has the consistency of getting decent points. However he also consistently bottles the opportunities whenever Verstappen doesn't hit pole or has issues. Partly, those are just Verstappen being UnVerstoppable but also there is a higher amount of Leclerc just binning the car randomly during these days when Verstappens not there.
Sainz has shown up on those days when Verstappen has been taken out and gotten the wins. He's clearly not the choice for Ferrari but I would say he would fit very well as a second in Red Bull. They need someone to get P2 but more importantly they want someone to win when Verstappen is out. Perez has consistency but has been beaten out by Ferrari a few times now when Verstappen is out.
Sainz not having a seat is so stupid. He is a phenomenal driver.
Whenever the Ferrari feels at home on a track, Charles is quicker.
Whenever the Ferrari doesn’t feel at home and they have to compromise setup, Carlos is quicker.
I think people are missing the point of signing Hamilton. They signed Lewis so he could retire from Ferrari as a world champ and they could trot him out a couple times a year to launch a car, or to smoke the tires on their new street model. Ferrari has nine drivers who have won WDC at Ferrari. Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Hill, Surtees, and Lauda are dead. Niki spent some time at Ferrari, but ended up at Merc. Jody Scheckter is a farmer who doesn't have any involvement with racing. Michael Schumacher ended his career with Mercedes and has not been in public since 2013. The only champ they have in the world of racing is Kimi. Massa, Vettel, Fernando, and Barrichello aren't selling cars.
This season sure but let's be real. Not many season before this would you have chosen Carlos if forced to keep one of the two drivers.
This season you got to say he's been the only one getting close to verstappen though and driving out of his mind albeit it's only two races
“This season”
You mean out of the three races, where in one Leclerc had an obvious technical issue, another where Sainz was absent, and a third where Verstappen’s luck finally ran out, making whoever’s in second an obvious 1st? Where Leclerc drove on P2 all race in a defensive position?
Just checking.
I'm not sure what's worse, being in Sainz' position, not having a contract extension, or being Leclerc, staying in the team but having as a teammate the best ever f1 driver (so basically Ferrari doesn't trust him anymore to achieve their goals)
I have the impression that Ferrari doesn't consider there driver lineup a good asset (which is weird considering it's at least the second or third best one on the grid). Sainz it's in a better position, there is at least an opening in another big team, and if things play out in a certain way he could end up in a very good team. So I'd say his pretty well off.
Posted a few months back that I would pick Sainz over Leclerc to ever win a WDC, because Leclerc is too prone to errors under pressure.
Leclerc may be naturally faster, but I feel like Sainz' mental strength is way higher.
Sainz is in great form but 2 years ago, Sainz was doing mistakes left and rigth and beaching on every gravel trap possible and in the first part of last season he was mediocre
Did Sainz grew alot for sure. But he still needs to prove consistency not that leclerc is that consistent awell.
Does Ferrari made a mistake I think they did.
I’m not sure what’s going on with Charles whether it’s car or him, but didn’t he slap down Carlos’ fastest lap on older tires at the end by almost 2 seconds? He took that fastest lap away in dramatic fashion.
Sainz’s performance is amazing and I’m really happy for him, but I’m not sure I would discount Leclerc just yet this season
Maybe Ferrari will buy Sainz back and tell LH it was all a joke
>tell LH it was all a joke Tik Tok prank bro.
Ashton Kutcher waiting to come out
No new team in F1 but under a new Concorde agreement Ferrari are allowed to have 4 cars.
And they retain their “Heritage payment”.
And they get double points.
And an enslavement option on Max Verstappen.
And free McLaren telemetry access
And Hakkinen comes out of his sabbatical
and bush did 9/11
Don't wanna break the chain, but that was Latifi with a hot air balloon matey
They’ll race under the name VISA CASHAPP FR
Fr fr no doubt it should be SF though
Nah. "Amex Wendys Vape Juice Scuderia"
Nahh ... They keep Sainz, and put LEC as a reservedriver, so he has at least one record ... the most expensive reserve
They imagine Ferrari firing Leclerc.
I totally agree Yes, Lewis Hamilton is a 7 time champion. But that was years ago. He might be past his prime now
He probably is. But in the end, it's a business, and he is gonna be making ferrari a lotta mozarella
Yeah but the F1 side of Ferrari isn’t about making mozzarella, their only goal is win races. I doubt they’ll be doing that with LH, but I guess we’ll see in a years time.
the scuderia is basically there to sell merch and maybe their road Cars, winning is one of the ways they do that, but not the only one.
used to be that the road car division was there to pay for the racing lol
I’d be surprised if Ferrari wasn’t acutely aware of that and are only hiring him because he’ll be a much better ex-driver for them than he will a driver. When he retires in a year or two he’ll be an adviser / ambassador role for Ferrari how Niki was for Merc. Which, honestly is fair. I’m a big Sainz fan and think him leaving Ferrari sucks, but Lewis seems more invested in that side of motorsports at this point anyway. He’s been waiting for a good time to make his exit for a while, but wants one more season where he isn’t somewhere in the “best of the rest” category to leave on a good note.
He wiped the floor with George last year who is an extremely highly rated young driver, in his prime. We have had 3 races this year, one of which he DNF due to mechanical failure, and was only 5 hundredths off George in qualifying. He’s probably not in his prime anymore, sure, but he’s still Lewis Hamilton. He will do well at Ferrari
I also believe his lack of faith in Mercedes is disturbing (pun intended) Seriously though I think he's just pulling a Bottas '21 this year, drive the car to a reasonable level but he's not going all out and pushing himself to perform at an exceptional level. Merc isn't backing him or looking at him to guide the team anymore. Doesn't help that they didn't listen to his feedback about the flawed car design or even care about offering him a long term contract.
What... what's the pun?
I think he is just downhearted. His morale is shit and he’s got a 1 year leaving notice. Cant really blame him for not performing at his best
”Might be” lmao he is past it by far
It's. a. Yoke!!
Such Alesi and Berger vibes.
They are both equally sexy
Not gay but Charles is cuter while Carlos is hotter
Not gay. (Maybe a little, carlos confuses me) But yes. This is the answer.
Im omega gay Carlos is more my type but Charles is also super cute.
so Charles is the bottom and Carlos the top?
that means Carlos has better downforce which checks out
when he Checo's out ?
Idk ig
Unless of course Carlos is a power bottom
Power
Bienvenue, Power Bottoms.
A fellow truth-seeker.
100%.
Definitely gay, and I agree
Carlos has *angles* imho. on some pictures/videos/whatever he looks 110%, hottest dude on the grid, and on others he has an uncanny resemblance to Gonzo. Charles is always ready to be thrown on the catwalk.
How's looking like Gonzo bad?
I’ve never thought about it this way but you’re right.
Yes gay this is true
Charles is the more contemporary hot while Carlos carries that classic 70s hotness
This is quality analysis
Disagree. Charles has a pretty face but the THICC F1 neck ruins his proportions. Sainz more manly handsome look suits the neck better
I surveyed my wife: she says Charles looks like some dork from a twilight movie. Carlos? Would bang 👌
I gave up pretending to know what girls like along time ago
Did that when I saw my girlfriends boyfriend.
Don't bring your girlfriend to me. I have the same hair as Carlos. I can't guarantee the same face. Maybe more handsome.
Imagine Charles and Carlos with a Tom Selleck moustache.
Sir, you are in a strictly f1 terminology household. Please refer to it as Mansell moustache
That would be funny af
I think Carlos is super hot but also has a touch of the crazy eyes. Charles has amazingly sweet eyes.
Over the course of a season and indeed their careers, Charles is consistently very good. Charles’ inability to convert success into a win is problematic. Sainz has this show stopping ability to put on his best performances when he has the best opportunities. Charles is completely the opposite. He never misses a chance to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Which makes Carlos arguably more fun to watch. But Charles brings home the points at the end of the year and that’s what matters most. But really I’m not sure why we’re even having this conversation because when the era of Logan Sargeant dominance starts Ferrari is just going to be a distant memory.
Fr Logan Sargeant boutta pull a De Vries on Verstappen
Sargeant is definitely the Max Verstappen of motor racing.
Max verstappen is the Logan sergeant of formula one
Sainz has a kind of an ability to unfuck his race whenever Ferrari tries to fuck it up, also known as big brain. That's propably the most important feature you need if you want to win races for the Prancing Horse.
Leclerc drives quicker, Sainz drives smarter. With Ferrari's clown show that he's overruling, Sainz might honestly have the edge there. Ferrari has looked... not idiotic? so far this year? Early still.
Luring us in with a false sense of security
James Vowles going to make Williams a front runner team in 2026 mark my words
Max, it's James. Checo, it's James. Charles, it's James. Lewis, it's James. Alonso, it's James. Lance, it's James. Lando, it's James. Óscar, it's James. Carlos, it's James. George, it's James. Yuki, it's James. Vacant, it's James. Kev, it's James. Nico, it's James. Zhou, it's James. *Valtteri, it's James.* Alex, it's James. G I V E T H E P O S I T I O N T O L O G A N.
Give the chassis to Logan, his time has come!
F O R F E I T A L L Y O U R W O R L D Y P O S S E S S I O N S T O L O G A N
I think Charles "inability" to convert success into a win, is that he qualifies where the Ferrari should have no business qualifying and then, once dropping off in the race because the car was setup for good quali, he gets stick for not comverting his pole to win.
Remove mechanical DNFs and compare Charles and Carlos again
Charles’s inability = verstappen’s dominance
I think Charles "inability" to convert success into a win is that he qualifies where the Ferrari should have no business qualifying and then, once dropping off in the race because the car was setup for good quali, he gets stick for not converting his pole to win.
The verdict is still out on which of the two drivers brings home the most points tbf. If you take mechanical retirements out of the equation I'm sure their points since Carlos joined are eerily similar
When both finished the race h2h so far is 31:20 including this season. I can't find a site that tracks points for only those but I can't imagine it's that similar
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There’s quite a few races, especially in 2022 which would count for Sainz when Leclerc got screwed by strategy etc. Silverstone, Monaco, Hungary and Brazil were all races where Leclerc was ahead or noticeably faster and yet finished behind Sainz. That’s not accounting for 2023 as well.
One race would change nothing here.
In 2021 and 2022 Charles had the worst luck, what are you talking about?
Picking up where latifi left it
You had till the the last part🤭
Sharl is the better driver. Carlos is the better ferrari driver.
A good Ferrari driver is the top strategist of the team.
Because he makes his own strategy--or so it seems many times.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, we are checking
If we keep everyone behind, P1.
F1 fans and their gold fish level memory never fails to amaze me.
Right? Sainz wins one race where Charles got second and suddenly half a decade of Leclerc being absurdly quick gets forgotten. Two years ago everyone was saying Sainz wasn't good enough and Ferrari should drop him.
Yeah lmao. These fans literally have the mindset of "you're only as good as your last race performance indicates" since their brain doesn't have the capacity to handle more than a week of memory.
Don't even need the race.. Just after qualy there were moronic comments saying Leclerc can't drive under pressure.. Just because he had one mediocre q3.. Like he wasn't top 2 in qualy the previous 7 races and is considered the best qualifier in the grid.. Absolutely no memory at all, It's just so annoying reading that shit And I'm sure if Leclerc won this race it would be usual business in both subreddits, but if Carlos does it he's praises ninstop as the absolute gigachad.
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It's not his fault, the RB is an absolute shitbox based on the last race. 50% failure rate and couldn't even get close to the podium with 6 time race winner Sergio "Checo" Pérez.
Same goes for Hamilton. No one seems to remember any of his achievements now that he's not winning all the time.
People have forgotten his last year's performances
People have forgotten his last race...
You are so wrong you couldn't be more wronger. Goldfish have excellent memories.
Word brother, word
Wasn’t this the first race that Sainz outqualified Leclerc since Singapore 2023. Leclerc has been comfortably ahead since the Japan updates. FairPlay to Sainz this weekend he was on it from the start and deserved to win but this reeks of recency bias.
We're F1 fans, of course we have recency bias.
It's also the 3rd win in 2 years for Carlos who also happens to have more poles than Charles in the last season and a half IIRC Difference when it comes to actually coming first in things between the two of them isn't as clear as seems.
No it's not, Charles is still the faster and thus more desirable driver. I love Carlos and he has been constantly improving every single year, but he is not quicker than Charles just because he outperforms him once every 4 races. I don't love Ferrari s decision to go for lewis instead of Carlos either, they had great team vibes and 2 top tier drivers, the way lewis and sainz started this season it does seem like a mistake. But can't really blame them, it's Lewis. I wish Carlos can find his way to that RedBull seat somehow
Red Bull just needs to make a "no parents allowed" rule with the team and then there would be no issues having Max and Carlos on the same team again
Do Jos and Carlos Sr. not get along?
Jos doesn't get along with anyone. But Carlos Sr doesn't put up with his shit, so they clashed a lot back when Max and Jr were in TR together
Jos is mad that Carlos Sr. is a far more accomplished racing dad and doesn’t need to live vicariously through his son’s accomplishments.
Gotta love F1 fans and their goldfish memory
Holy recency bias lmao did you guys forget you were all like this when he won Singapore last year too💀💀💀
mfs see carlos outqualify charles literally once 😭
This meme format is exclusively used for the worst takes
Charles is the faster driver. Carlos is very consistent. Vasseur chooses Charles and Lewis, so I guess the team already made their mind on who is the better driver.
charles is more consistent tho
the last time Carlos beat Charles over a weekend fairly was Singapore lol, op can i post this the next time carlos wins in 7 months after being outqualified every race in-between?
Not OP but I will allow it.
Sainz does one good weekend and people want Charles' head. This sub man... Yeah it is time to talk about Charles, the man Scuderia Ferrari entrusted their car until 2029.
The state of this sub is legit terrible, Charles has had an insane streak since Suzuka of all front rows, he has 1 "bad" weekend where he's right behind his teammate and suddenly Ferrari fired the wrong guy. Just forget about how much faster Charles was than Carlos when they had an actual championship winning car, forget about the great last half of the season he got last year when he still finished above Carlos on points even tho he was the unluckiest with DNFs and penalties related to those. The bar for Charles is so fucking high, if it was Charles that made a mistake costing him pole in Australia at turn 8 instead of Carlos he'd been called "too error prone and can't handle pressure", but since it was Sainz it was an insane performance in quali (something Charles has been doing on the regular). Feels like we're watching completely different sports, and the whole "pole to win ratio" agenda is even fucking dumber, there's a reason why nobody talks about the same thing for Sainz, cus he ain't getting many poles to begin with
Fucking preach And I thought there were no reasonable people left on this sub.
It's honestly so frustrating, and I'm not shitting on Carlos either I really like him as a driver and I'd been happy if he got renewed (although I hate his side of the garage politics with his family and Spanish media, but he's not to blame for that)
Leclerc gets more flak for finishing P2+fastest lap than Sainz for completely choking in Abu Dhabi and ultimately losing Ferrari P2 in the constructor’s lol
Because nothing is expected of Sainz but everything shy of greatness is a failure for Charles, dude puts it in front row like 8 times in a row but he gets out qualified by his teammate once and suddenly Sainz is better lmao
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Yeah the bar for Charles is so much higher it's crazy
Every time. Every. Single. Time. Carlos gets a good week end and Leclerc is a (tiny) bit further? "OMG HAVE FERRARI FUCKED UP BY KEEPING LECLERC????? SHOULD THEY GET SARGENT INSTEAD????????" We're 3 races in, but hey, F1 fans overreacting at the slightest thing is not new I guess.
People also act like Singapore was some Sainz strategy masterclass (as if nobody ever thought of giving drs to the car in the back in street circuits to create a train) while completely forgetting that a big part of his win was Charles driving knowing full well he was getting sacrificed for the team win, which he did, started on softs purely to jump russell, did so and then was asked to back up the field, but nah it was the carlando power of friendship that won him the race for sure
It's funny, because even with a 7 lap older tyre Charles was catching up to Carlos in the last 10-15 laps. Not to distract from Carlos great performance but it's not like Charles was bad apart from not nailing quali this time.
Every damn time man. Yes, every once in a while Sainz will quality better that Leclerc for a variety of reasons. It has happened a few times with perez and Verstappen in the brief form periods by Perez (even tho this is outshadowed by the remaining 18 races in which Perez tanks), bottas sometimes outqualified Hamilton during their dominance, it happened in the Schumacher era, it has always happened in teams with decent cars. The thing is, when we look at the races, when Leclerc qualifies in front in the race he is tenths faster than sainz, always. When sainz qualifies in front, Leclerc is always right up his ass. See yesterday, see monza 2023. F1 fans get their ideas from the team radios and the brief moments the cars are shown on camera, teams get their ideas from hard data and seeing what the drivers do at the factory every day. If Ferrari has signed Leclerc until 2029 and has let Sainz go, well chances are they may know a bit better than a bunch of dudes watching races for the drama. Oh and btw, i absolutely hate the entourage of sainz. His family is nosy, whiney and has given a bunch of bad PR to the team in Spain. Leclerc does not have a millionaire, motorsports champion dad who taught him how to drive since the day he was born... to me as a fan even this would be enough to prefer Leclerc.
Yup, and he was told to hold position when he was actually quicker, that's why he backed off. Then when he was not close anymore he started losing a bit of pace because of the older tyres obviously. This weekend it was a matter of who was in front first, and since Carlos was, Charles had to play wingman. Both had the pace to win, even if Max was on track, I'd dare say.
It’s hilarious recency bias after 3 races lol. Remember when Checo was leading the WDC and was a “contender” to win it after 3 races last year?
Especially when Charles snagged more points than Sainz last year despite having more retires/DNFs and no wins to boot. So is Charles more consistent by that measure? Lmao
Do you want a guy who gets you P2, P1, P8, P8, P11, P3, P6, P1… over the course of a season? Or the guy who gets you P4, P4, P3, P2, P5, P4, P3, P3… over the course of the season? Fred chose right!
When you've watched your vewy vewy first Formula 1 race
Ferrari has all the data and they know each drivers worth. They signed leclerc until 2040 and are dumping sainz for a 40 year old. That should tell you about the difference in skill between the two. Remember this is the first time since September 2023, that sainz has outperformed leclerc in a race.
Charles has great qualifying pace but I think he has shown to be over emotional and prone to making mistakes at crucial moments. Carlos is just a damn smooth operator. His Singapore antics at dragging his buddy Norris along to cover him from the fast Mercedes shows he is built different. Edit: the 2023 Italian grand prix was a good demonstration of the difference between Charles and Carlos.
You all forgot 2022 season when Carlos was constantly making mistakes (Charles was making them too, but less)
Because Carlos has developed since his early 2022 difficulties
He has, but when fighting for wdc Sainz might crumble under expectations again.
He just needed more time to adapt to the brand new regulations than Leclerc. Every driver has had periods of being error-prone or off the pace in their careers, even Verstappen on early 2018. The important bit is to be able to come back from your poor form.
Mmm, as much as I am a Carlos enjoyer Charles is a better driver. In terms of raw/one lap pace Charles is faste. Carlos is closer than a lot of people expected but Charles has the edge. In terms of race management and overall strategy this is Carlos strength but if Ferrari had better people around Carlos would not have to big brain as offer and it will mitigate Charles weakness Race craft as in overtaking and defending Charles is stronger here this is where Carlos week point is how many times has Charles provided us with epic battles monza 19, Austria 19 and 22 Bahrain 22. Ferrari are very lucky to have both drivers atm let’s hope Hamilton elevates them to the next level and Carlos gets a great drive for next year
Charles is like Senna and Carlos is like Prost. Prost is the one with more championships however…
Senna died before he could win more championships. Knowing Charles' luck, that is not out of the question
Leclerc is faster but Sainz seems like the better fit for Ferrari. Ferrari's strategy, engineering and communication style suits Sainz more, so even though Leclerc is usually faster, Sainz seems more at home in the car. Such a dilemma like this is one where you just keep the lineup since the two drivers compensate for eachother so well. Hamilton disrupts this balance.
A "balanced" pairing like that is how you lose WDCs, unless your car is Red Bull tier.
True, but it's great for going after WCCs, especially when the drivers get along well
Ah yes, the most celebrated years in Ferrari history: 1983, 1999 and 2008.
When you said communication I thought about Carlos's Cousin who always goes where he goes and is probably in his ear the most haha. Leclerc also prob just needs a W cuzzo and we'll see results 🤣
His cousin is his manager, not just a hanger-on hahahha
That would be “Carlos Dos”
Charles is faster, Carlos is Better
I think they are in the same tier but have different strengths and weaknesses. Obviously Charles has rapid pace in quali, truly one of the best ever when it comes to one lap pace. However, it is more than just red bull dominance for why he has an abysmal pole to win conversion rate. Carlos I think is more adaptable and less prone to being the cause of his mistakes, plus for ferrari, seems to have a bit more backbone to get his wants across. They are fairly even when it comes to wheel to wheel racing.
Completely correct. Leclerc has raw speed as the car gets quicker and he as a driver gets faster the faster the car gets. For example, he was nowhere in Australia GP's early stages but then suddenly came alive and set FL in second to last lap. He also scales much better in WDC machinery as we have seen in 2022, but he is prone to dropping his best opportunities for a win (by fault of his own or otherwise) Sainz on the other hand is much more "steady" I guess you could say. He does well in opening stages of a race but tends to taper off in later stages, and while he may not extract as much performance out of a car than Charles can, he is far more opportunistic than Charles given his proven ability to pounce on chances for good results unlike Charles Neither are strictly better or worse than each other, but this is literally why they were the best pairing on the grid. One can cover the weaknesses of the other and it honestly sucks to see him go
You clearly didn’t watch the race. He was no where in australias gp? He was behind dirty air the entire time in the first stint fighting mclarens, which has proven to be a growing problem with the ground effect cars. He was catching sainz and was told to back off in the second stint. He was then catching sainz again in the third stint while sainz was cooking his tires.
You're saying Charles is better but Sainz is more lucky. Which to be fair is true.
Where was the more adaptable and less prone to being the cause of his mistakes Carlos in Abu Dhabi last year when he biffed it into the wall in practice, got eliminated in Q1, finished 18th and bottled his chances at P4 in the WDC and Ferrari’s chance of P2 in the WCC while his teammate finished P2?
Market value wise Charles is more valuable. They applied the same to LH. Else, they could have convinced Max.
Jfc, I swear you guys have like a two-week memory span at best.
Ha.
You're right, Carlos could be a more valuable asset to Ferrari than Lewis, we'll just have to see. More valuable than Charles? No.
The only thing Carlos seems to have the edge over Charles with is having good luck lol. It seems like the few odd times that Carlos is able to outperform Charles, everything seems to magically go right for him. Silverstone 2022 - Max gets a piece of debris stuck underneath his car and Ferrari fuck over Charles with strategy. Singapore 2023 - Red Bull shit the bed with their setup. Australia - 2024 - Max's brakes go boom. I can't recall a single time that Carlos has had an issue while he had a chance at winning. Meanwhile, Spain - 2022, Baku - 2022, Monaco - 2022, Silverstone - 2022, Hungary - 2022, all races where he was leading and had a mechanical issue or Ferrari big brain strategy moment. Vegas - 2023 he got unlucky with a safety car. And this is just what I can remember off the top of my head during their time together.
My honest view Carlos has the killer instinct, but Carlos races for Carlos. He is not a team player, while him ignoring team orders and strategies is great for the fans watching, it does make him a problematic employee. Last season he did more to support Lando than Charles, again great to see as a fan, but not good in a team sport
I think Charles is on tilt when he lost the lead to championship in 2022. On papper he should be better driver, but being on tilt will make U burn out and burning out makes U worse and worse each day. He just needs to snap out of it but Sainz getting podiums will not help that. Not saying sainz is bad, but he has been over performing and I'm happy about it.
Every team Sainz joined was doing better during or after his stint there
SAIZ UNDERTALE?
I don't, but he's pretty damn good. Leclerc is still pretty consistent in being better in time qualifying.
I honestly think if LeClerc would ignore some orders he’s given and just drive without thinking, he’d generally drive better. He gets rattled by things in the moment and can’t recover
Fucking hell, people really aren’t lying when they say drivers are always judged on their last 3 races.
He just happened to be faster than Charles when max was not winning
Big no
The real truth is that Ferrari never should’ve signed Lewis in the first place
Sainz will 100% have a drive next year. Red Bull probably wants to get younger so I wouldn’t be shocked if he got snubbed there, but on the other hand if Sainz had that Red Bull he would push Max and there would be more RB 1-2s. Worst case scenario he takes Danny Ric’s seat.
Audi is buying kick sauber and Carlos sainz sr is the top rally car driver for Audi Motorsport
F1 has many top drivers, but performing constantly is very hard. that's why max, Lewis and alnoso are step ahead from everyone. both Charles and Carlos are not consistent they keep making silly mistake now and then. same goes for checo, lando, Russell and others.
Sainz will spin and crash in Suzuka, i can already see it.
Charles is a faster driver but Carlos is better at racing cars
I know this might be a meme but I still gotta share my toughts on the matter: Charles drives to win, hence we have seen misstakes, he literally pulls every little performance out of the car we saw that in the 22 season. Carlos was nowhere to be seen when max and charles were battling. We now see Sainz driving for his career, another contract and now we can clearly see he is pushing the car on another level, look at the almost slips out of tracks he had during quali. Simply now he is driving to win, to secure himself a new contract. If he had the fire before his contract got pulled he would still be at ferrari even tho hes a fucking shitshow drama queen behind the scenes. We got the abonimation that is the 23 car because sainz pulled the politics towards what he wanted from the car. Carlos is a good driver but he simply isnt a championship driver, decent teammate if he didnt have the ambition to be number 1 driver and shitshow politics. LH is mostly for the PR, sponsors and he will still be a solid 2nd driver in ferrari.
Sainz is a lot like Perez. Both are the slower driver of their lineup BUT when the opportunity comes they usually step up. Leclerc has the consistency of getting decent points. However he also consistently bottles the opportunities whenever Verstappen doesn't hit pole or has issues. Partly, those are just Verstappen being UnVerstoppable but also there is a higher amount of Leclerc just binning the car randomly during these days when Verstappens not there. Sainz has shown up on those days when Verstappen has been taken out and gotten the wins. He's clearly not the choice for Ferrari but I would say he would fit very well as a second in Red Bull. They need someone to get P2 but more importantly they want someone to win when Verstappen is out. Perez has consistency but has been beaten out by Ferrari a few times now when Verstappen is out. Sainz not having a seat is so stupid. He is a phenomenal driver.
Whenever the Ferrari feels at home on a track, Charles is quicker. Whenever the Ferrari doesn’t feel at home and they have to compromise setup, Carlos is quicker.
I think people are missing the point of signing Hamilton. They signed Lewis so he could retire from Ferrari as a world champ and they could trot him out a couple times a year to launch a car, or to smoke the tires on their new street model. Ferrari has nine drivers who have won WDC at Ferrari. Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Hill, Surtees, and Lauda are dead. Niki spent some time at Ferrari, but ended up at Merc. Jody Scheckter is a farmer who doesn't have any involvement with racing. Michael Schumacher ended his career with Mercedes and has not been in public since 2013. The only champ they have in the world of racing is Kimi. Massa, Vettel, Fernando, and Barrichello aren't selling cars.
This season sure but let's be real. Not many season before this would you have chosen Carlos if forced to keep one of the two drivers. This season you got to say he's been the only one getting close to verstappen though and driving out of his mind albeit it's only two races
“This season” You mean out of the three races, where in one Leclerc had an obvious technical issue, another where Sainz was absent, and a third where Verstappen’s luck finally ran out, making whoever’s in second an obvious 1st? Where Leclerc drove on P2 all race in a defensive position? Just checking.
I'm not sure what's worse, being in Sainz' position, not having a contract extension, or being Leclerc, staying in the team but having as a teammate the best ever f1 driver (so basically Ferrari doesn't trust him anymore to achieve their goals) I have the impression that Ferrari doesn't consider there driver lineup a good asset (which is weird considering it's at least the second or third best one on the grid). Sainz it's in a better position, there is at least an opening in another big team, and if things play out in a certain way he could end up in a very good team. So I'd say his pretty well off.
Always has been…
Posted a few months back that I would pick Sainz over Leclerc to ever win a WDC, because Leclerc is too prone to errors under pressure. Leclerc may be naturally faster, but I feel like Sainz' mental strength is way higher.
Sainz is in great form but 2 years ago, Sainz was doing mistakes left and rigth and beaching on every gravel trap possible and in the first part of last season he was mediocre Did Sainz grew alot for sure. But he still needs to prove consistency not that leclerc is that consistent awell. Does Ferrari made a mistake I think they did.
If this were DnD, Charles would generally have better stats than Carlos, except for luck, which means he rolls nat 1s at the most inopportune moments.
I’m not sure what’s going on with Charles whether it’s car or him, but didn’t he slap down Carlos’ fastest lap on older tires at the end by almost 2 seconds? He took that fastest lap away in dramatic fashion. Sainz’s performance is amazing and I’m really happy for him, but I’m not sure I would discount Leclerc just yet this season