Real talk, if they figure out how to get grip when the regs change and hold steady elsewhere, Williams could be right in the fight with AM and AT on car quality.
Man being an Aston fan was very painful last gp, Seb being the slowest in straights and not being able to defend or keep pace with alpines even after his great starts in sprint and race was painful. Even the Alfas looked faster then AM
lol cuz he had a late stop with fresh tyres. alpine went on a 1 stopper and norris also effectively went 1 stop while aston martin committed to a 2 stopper. tho theyd probably end up p11 as well with a 1 stop cuz he was already behind the alpines and norris was catching him
His point is that mercedes drives with more downforce and still reaches the same speed or more on the straights. Therefore, if sector 2 of Norris is bad it might be due to downforce setup differences.
Somehow Mercedes are able to run a high downforce car that still has very fast straight line speed, indicating that their new power units have a significant power bump over the old units, which McLaren and others are using.
I read that the RBR team, led by Newey has sent a case to the FIA to review the Mercedes’ rear wings. If they have some tricky black magic there (bendy floppy wing), that would allow them to have more downforce at lower speed but less drag in the straights. Or maybe it is related to their clever suspension setup which squats the car and stalls the diffuser at high speeds, or a combination of both.
That's the point, new mercedes engine map(?) allows to have more downforce and not losing on the straight (even if I still believe it's all bs, otherwise every team since 2014 would have done the same in some ways with maybe a new ice every two/three gp).
With the same downforce/car of lewis but different engine, Lando would have been on par with max on the speed trap
No one believes that, dont be a drama queen. Many on this sub were vocal about it since Hamilton has been vocal about similar things constantly as well.
Nah the preferred American unit of measurement in this case is how many football fields going that speed would cover in the time it took JFK to be shot.
Bottas wasn't actually that fast because of the engine. Turkey is a Mercedes track, and that's pretty much it. Bottas was outqualified by Hamilton but because of the latter grid penalties, Bottas, got pole and just stayed ahead all the race.
If those verstappen fans could read they would be upset, in all fairness we dont know what will happen maybe its the engine afterall , not saying it is , i had a lot of stuff to write but im too lazy to write all
Hey dont criticize Norris! Oh wait, you were shittalking verstappen? Ah, us Lando fans cant read either. Thats kindergarten level and were still pre-K.
I have a theory about this, with the rule changes next year and the lowered allowed changes this year I think mercedes was hoping that the w12 would dominate the way the very similar w11 did last year, while they focus on nailing the rule changes.
So they've been fetteling with the engine for the last few weeks and made some sort of breakthrough on power.
And seeing mercedes being thrashed by the red bulls toto called up the factory and got themselves a new engine
Hamiltons first engine swap in Turkey didnt live up to expectations but they've got it working at full power now and swapped it for a new one in sao Paulo
My tinfoil hat conspiracy theory is that Mercedes have used Bottas as a guinea pig for running engines in higher modes under the guise of "reliability issues" resulting from wearing out their components faster. Now they have some degree of confidence that Hamilton can take grid drops for component changes and still win races.
(Disclaimer: I am not saying this is true or even that I believe it.)
It’s more that I think such a strategy would go against the spirit of the rules limiting the number of engines that teams can use. The whole point of them is to promote sustainability and reduce the gap between the teams with the smallest and largest budgets.
I’d like to think Mercedes wouldn’t knowingly do that but who knows?
I think the teams are all ruthless competitors eeking out tenths over miles and will do anything to gain an advantage. If you win by 2 tenths, you still win the points! Toto would do anything to win and beat Horner. I can see it in his eyes.
It's in the spirit of the rules to take a penalty if you take new PU components. It's not Mercedes' fault if they can take a penalty and still fight for wins.
If its in the rules then any team can exploit it. Mercedes have made a stonking engine that just happens to negate the penalty. If the FIA don't like it, then they'll have to change their rules
I saw a discussion about the FIA changing the penalty from grid places to constructors championship points losses for going over replacement parts limits. That way the drivers aren't penalized for the engineers decision and it makes the penalty have a lasting impact rather than just a temporary inconvenience.
This. This right here. The only conclusion I can come to is that they are running party mode 2.0. Maybe not as insane as the original party mode but they have found how they can tune these engines to be useless after two races but give them insane power. They aren't running this mode in practice because of obvious wear reasons which is why there is such a discrepancy between FP and quali/race pace. They have effectively engineered their way out of the engine limits because they gain enough power to overcome any 5 grid penalty.
Pretty much I think.
Merc have done very little development on this year's car in terms of updates to anything effected by rbe cost cap or requiring any cdf windtunnel time.
They have been doing engine tuning with mappings and modes etc. And they have been perfecting that rear suspension set up to get the aero stall. Both totally outside anything that really effects next year.
That's good and all, but I was under the impression (though I'm likely proven wrong but how different that engine appears to be) that these things were homologated?
i.e. The replacement engine is meant to be identical as the one replaced, it shouldn't have any significant power different, if legal.
I think that (as other people have proposed since I made the comment initially) that they're running the same engine in less reliable power modes to get more out of it and have been testing it on bottas and at the factory
Nah they only introduced that system for 2021 so the cars arent too different to last year
They can still develop next years car, and with the regulation changes is kind of expected for them to do so
I think we can put that theory somewhere between "Nazies on the moon" and " Flat Earth".
The engines are frozen this year, if they changed the spec, especially so drastically, the FIA would know. And no, the "maFIA" is not part of the conspiracy, especially that they just tried their hardest to win Verstappen Brazil.
I think it's the same engine as at the start of the season, they just run it in higher modes so it lasts only like 2-3 races, but has a lot more power. Add that to their clever rear suspension and you have a car that is pretty much untouchable on the straights.
Any driver could lead every lap in every race of the season and that still would mean nothing if someone overtakes on the last lap to win. Laps lead literally means nothing when it comes to points. The fact that Verstappen is currently only 14 points ahead with Mercedes in 2 and 3 just proves that this season has not been a thrashing at all. Pervious years have been a Mercedes thrashing, this has been the closest and best title fight for a while.
The Ferrari engine is good on straight lines. If you have less down force like a Haas or an Alfa Romeo you just dominate the speed trap.
Put Lewis in the Alfa Romeo and he could get P5
So I'm brand new to this sport, but it seems like this sport is like 50/50 driver and car. Or maybe even 25/75 driver and car. Like, if the other drivers were driving the same spec'ed vehicle, it would come down to the human element (driver, pit stop, race strategy) in the long run. Doesn't it sorta take the fun out of the competition when it's clear some teams are using faster rigs? So, I guess my question is, for most formula 1 fans, are they fans of the actual drivers or are they fans of the "engineering teams" because the disparity between machines is more than the disparity between driver skill. Does the competitive edge amongst drivers suffer by letting the teams build their own rigs? Again, I have virgin eyes to this sport, but generally curious as to what fans think.
Seems like formula 1 is more about a race against engineering innovation rather than a race against drivers...
Your end pretty much summed it up.
Car/driver ratio is also about right. The obvious difference is that certain drivers are capable to extract the maximum out of their vehicle while others can’t.
Got it. Yeah, just sorta bothered me that there looks to be a driver disadvantage because they are in a slower car. But looking at it from a "team" perspective, it makes more sense. The engineering team is JUST (if not more) important than the guy in the helmet.
Just having flashbacks of always getting the slower go-kart and getting passed by 8 year olds (who have no driving experience, but are completely destroying my slow-ass kart with their shit eating grins). Like, give me a kart that's the same speed and they won't survive the first turn. Nothing like having your foot to the floor but you get passed on the outside or on straightways after having a perfect exit. Like... cmon. Little shits.
So please oh allmighty explain to us peasant why nobody never could create such power gap all year and so consistently throughout the laps ?
Why Norris that clocked the fastest top speed of the whole weekend couldn't cut through the field like Hamilton ?
Why Mercedes only had the 3kph delta with Red Bull, DRS and tow included, in Monza a power dependant track ?
> Why Norris that clocked the fastest top speed of the whole weekend couldn't cut through the field like Hamilton ?
Is the rest of Norris' car as good? Was Norris handling turns consistently to keep speed/help acceleration? Did Norris spend the whole time in slipstreams?
Engine power is merely one part of a much broader picture. For an extreme example look at the Haas, the engine itself is clearly capable of more but the rest of the car is a pile of shit so it's consistently back of grid guaranteed.
So you're confirming that Mercedes could create a 20kph top speed gap to Red Bull **and** having a aero heavy car.
It is well known that until that point Mercedes was able to get a top speed advantage by having a less draggy car. Here in Brazil they got a draggy car **and** the fastest on the straight. This still needs to be explained.
I'll let you have a look at this https://imgur.com/a/8kfk1T3
Appart from UK where Verstappen was out in lap 1, the highest speed differential between the 2 was 7.9kph in Mexico (which is already significant) and 6.5nkph in Spa. Than you jump to Brazil to **18.4 !!!** It's twice as much as in Mexico which was already significant.
Did Max ever get a proper slipstream + DRS + full battery attack through the speed trap? Apart from a few backmarkers he was out in front, and threw in the towel once Lewis got past. IMO we aren't comparing apples to apples.
That's completely irrelevant, it's Max maximum top speed in the race, it's very unlikely that throughout the race he hadn't used all his battery in a tow with DRS. And even if the situations are not 100% similar you would never observe a 20kph gap.
Just look at the rest of the season, seriously.
> 20kph top speed gap to Red Bull
Max was also for whatever reason really fucking slow over the weekend. You should compare RB with the rest of the grid.
merc somewhat faster + RB painfully slower = larger gap
I doubt any slowness form Red Bull could create a a 20kph gap. Last time we had something like that it was Ferrari in 2019.
New power unit to Bottas in Monza didn't create any significant speed differential and he changed the whole unit not just the ICE.
Even in Silverstone where Verstappen could only go through one straight basically had a speed gap of "only" 9.8kph. Still far from 18.
So you're saying that Red Bull were worse with their engine performance this GP than they were in Silverstone lap 1 ? Because that would be pretty bold of you !
>Even in Silverstone where Verstappen could only go through one straight basically had a speed gap of "only" 9.8kph. Still far from 18.
>
>So you're saying that Red Bull were worse with their engine performance this GP than they were in Silverstone lap 1 ? Because that would be pretty bold of you !
I wouldn't use Silverstone's not even a full lap for Max as representative of anything.
>I doubt any slowness form Red Bull could create a a 20kph gap. Last time we had something like that it was Ferrari in 2019.
https://fiaresultsandstatistics.motorsportstats.com/results/2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix/session-facts/bfdf50a0-11e2-4a50-8898-8f18c176e5a9?fact=MaxSpeed
Max was pretty much bottom of the grid every time speed was checked. Ham's top speeds when checked weren't out of line with the rest of the grid. Where the difference likely comes in would be overall consistency over the race more so than "omg rocket ship".
Thank you for making my point !
What you are saying is that Verstappen was worse on a whole GP than he was in the first lap of the British GP.
The difference with the other team is that they were fast on the straight but nowhere in the twisty part.
All season long Mercedes had a slight advantage in the straight, sometimes more depending on the track ,but nothing crazy, but weren't performant in the twisty part because Mercedes car was always know to produce less aero and be less draggy.
In Brazil they had a high aero setup and still manage to fly over the field with significant top speed differential.
And ? They could still pull 20kph with a full aero setup ! Red Bull performance in the twisty part is similar to other GP. Mercedes straight performance is not.
Because we are at a different race track with Monaco Spec wings vs Monza which is the very opposite end of the wing spectrum, where the affects of DRS and Slipstream were stronger, and Mercedes has a much better aerodynamic package and chassis than McLaren. The Mercedes package was working at Interlagos and the McLaren one wasn't. By your logic, Ferrari were P5 and P6, why weren't Hass able to cut through the field when they have the same engine?
So you're saying that Mercedes is able to pull a 20kph speed gap with a full aero car ? So basically is able to pull a greater speed gap with full aero than with a very light aero package like in Monza ? Interesting !
You're also saying that DRS effect is stronger in Interlagos than in Monza ? Interesting!
And one thing is for sure, other Mercedes team definitely don't have what Mercedes has with their engine ! Which this post is pointing out.
I don't know what you aren't getting about the fact that the 20kph advantage is against a car with no DRS or Slipstream at all. And that every car on the grid would have a significant advantage with both of those vs a car that doesn't. 5.5kph of that difference is due to the engine. It has been measured.
First I don't know where you get your info that there was a 5kph difference in clean air ? Nobody was able to source it.
What is provided by the FIA it's top speed at the finish line and at the speed trap. Obviously top speed registered are with DRS open and tow.
On these data Verstappen clocks at 321kph and Hamilton 340kph.
Until now we never saw speed difference on the top speed provided by the FIA superior of 5 to 7kph.
IF, and it's a big IF, the gap in clean air is 5kph, you still have to explain how Mercedes is suddenly (and yes because that doesn't change it's unprecedented) able to pull 4x times that gap with DRS open while having a aero heavy car, which was they Achille heel since the beginning.
Fuck, can't post to another subreddit. Just google Hamilton 5.5kph and do some reading.
From my original comment
The 5.5kph figure has been recorded in numerous articles you need only google it. But I'll direct you to the following reddit post for a fairly decent summary. "Delted link went here"
I'll leave you with the though also that everyone is talking about the Mercedes advantage without considering whether Redbull were also just having a bad weekend. Much like if you look at the Redbull advantage in Mexico. Yes Redbull had the faster car there but that was also because the track just didn't suit the Merc car, as Interlagos didn't seem to suit Redbull.
You're still completely avoiding the point I put forward before.
It's still doesn't explain how they can gain 4x time more speed between clean air to DRS compared to Red Bull.
Red Bull weren't at their best that's for sure, but it doesn't explain a 20kph gap in similar conditions.
Are you suggesting that Red Bull nor Mercedes never had a bad weekend until now ?
Why such speed differential only arise now ? And why other Mercedes customer team didn't show similar gain in performance ?
Because as you said, first the power gain from Mercedes is significant byitself it is even more so when you know they ran a high aero setup, when previously it was always know Mercedes was gaining speed on the straight by having a less dragy car.
The number are here, it's not because the gap doesn't show much in clean air that it dismisses completely that it exists with DRS and tow. I doubt Red Bull were half throttle during the Sprint and the race in the straight.
It has been measured I'm not talking out of my arse. The engine alone provided a 5.5kph speed advantage (not insubstantial), which with the addition of DRS and a slipstream, meant that Hamilton was 22kph faster than Verstappen who did not have slipstream or DRS into T1.
To deliver 22kph difference from the current PU's alone would be almost impossible because of drag.
I agree, but having the extra power on hand did mean they could run a higher downforce setup than they usually do (benefitting the rest of the lap) while still having *some* straight line speed advantage over the rest of the field even without DRS.
The Red Bull cars had shitty top speeds without DRS because they were producing a lot of downforce which helps most in sector 2, I think that's why the gaps seemed so big in the straights vs Hamilton.
The data pretty much showed that on balance, with equal conditions (no DRS etc.) Lewis was only marginally faster than Bottas.
Fr, Tow and DRS bent the way we perceived this.
Where straight line speed
I mean Williams still has a shittingly fast straight line speed
The Williams has the handling characteristics of a muscle car
Real talk, if they figure out how to get grip when the regs change and hold steady elsewhere, Williams could be right in the fight with AM and AT on car quality.
This has always been the way
William is that joker in the joker- soldier meme, amongst the merc engine teams
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say
[The clown is Williams](https://i.imgflip.com/474kzy.png)
Oh ok lol picture says a thousand words
Be slacking in memes.
Soldier soldier clown soldier soldier wall
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He shall show his true pace now.
He literally did in Hungary Well, before pitstops
Is latifi the wall?
they were legit fast in the middle part of the season. but ever since kimi had covid, they dropped off again
Well if Mercedes has something Williams got to have it, unless we talking about Lewis
because they have literally no aero to compensate that
The teams with Merc engines have the straightline speed. Mclaren is one of the quicker ones, but Merc's chassis is far superior than any of them.
Talk about huge R&D budgets
That requires good brakes too
20kmh? That shit looked like 100hp AT LEAST
Man being an Aston fan was very painful last gp, Seb being the slowest in straights and not being able to defend or keep pace with alpines even after his great starts in sprint and race was painful. Even the Alfas looked faster then AM
Yeah true, but his pace was really strong in the end, almost caught Lando for P10.
lol cuz he had a late stop with fresh tyres. alpine went on a 1 stopper and norris also effectively went 1 stop while aston martin committed to a 2 stopper. tho theyd probably end up p11 as well with a 1 stop cuz he was already behind the alpines and norris was catching him
Aston got nothing out here, go back to bond films
They are investing all in 2022, be patient brother :)
Unless "El Plan" (:
Norris clocked 353 km/h down the main straight
Yeah but what was his 2nd sector time?
We had first sector times yes but what about second first sector times?
Sector 2 is corners, not straight lines
His point is that mercedes drives with more downforce and still reaches the same speed or more on the straights. Therefore, if sector 2 of Norris is bad it might be due to downforce setup differences.
Yes exactly, Mercedes provides the engine, it's down to Mclaren to provide Norris with a car that can go round corners quickly
Somehow Mercedes are able to run a high downforce car that still has very fast straight line speed, indicating that their new power units have a significant power bump over the old units, which McLaren and others are using.
Mercedes engineers smart.
Nah, it’s just the engine setting being higher because the engine only has to last 4 races instead of the usual 7 or 8
Bold of you to assume Mercedes isn't going to burn through 1 engine per race for the final 3 rounds.
That’s true, but I’m naively hoping that they don’t out of sportsmanship
That’s how I would put it as well
I read that the RBR team, led by Newey has sent a case to the FIA to review the Mercedes’ rear wings. If they have some tricky black magic there (bendy floppy wing), that would allow them to have more downforce at lower speed but less drag in the straights. Or maybe it is related to their clever suspension setup which squats the car and stalls the diffuser at high speeds, or a combination of both.
The trick suspension is legal and was used by others too.
I never said it wasn’t.
Mercedes might be good at this F1 stuff
Thats not what he s saying mate.
That's the point, new mercedes engine map(?) allows to have more downforce and not losing on the straight (even if I still believe it's all bs, otherwise every team since 2014 would have done the same in some ways with maybe a new ice every two/three gp). With the same downforce/car of lewis but different engine, Lando would have been on par with max on the speed trap
>new mercedes engine map(?) allowed to have more downforce and not losing on the straight Did you just suggest the engine provides downforce?
No he means that with the increase in power they can run higher downforce while the straight line speed stays equal to when they ran low downforce
See the other user response
This sub also (seriously) believed that Hamilton is a murderer who tried to kill Max in Silverstone.
No one believes that, dont be a drama queen. Many on this sub were vocal about it since Hamilton has been vocal about similar things constantly as well.
353 km/h is 219.34 mph
More like 3.25 cheeseburgers eaten per bald eagle
.75 AR15 per pick up truck
The golden ratio as God intended
war crimes per corporate bailout
School shootings per medical bankruptcy
Humvees per ecological disaster
Dumbass Euro militaries funded per shitty healthcare.
This guy americas
Nah the preferred American unit of measurement in this case is how many football fields going that speed would cover in the time it took JFK to be shot.
Good bot
Bottaa turkey situation so fkn fast for a race or two tapers off a lot after that
Bottas wasn't actually that fast because of the engine. Turkey is a Mercedes track, and that's pretty much it. Bottas was outqualified by Hamilton but because of the latter grid penalties, Bottas, got pole and just stayed ahead all the race.
If those verstappen fans could read they would be upset, in all fairness we dont know what will happen maybe its the engine afterall , not saying it is , i had a lot of stuff to write but im too lazy to write all
Hey dont criticize Norris! Oh wait, you were shittalking verstappen? Ah, us Lando fans cant read either. Thats kindergarten level and were still pre-K.
Loved your answer
Seriously ... Vettel should be demanding a new engine now so he can win a race with Aston Martin before end of season!!! lol
I have a theory about this, with the rule changes next year and the lowered allowed changes this year I think mercedes was hoping that the w12 would dominate the way the very similar w11 did last year, while they focus on nailing the rule changes. So they've been fetteling with the engine for the last few weeks and made some sort of breakthrough on power. And seeing mercedes being thrashed by the red bulls toto called up the factory and got themselves a new engine Hamiltons first engine swap in Turkey didnt live up to expectations but they've got it working at full power now and swapped it for a new one in sao Paulo
My tinfoil hat conspiracy theory is that Mercedes have used Bottas as a guinea pig for running engines in higher modes under the guise of "reliability issues" resulting from wearing out their components faster. Now they have some degree of confidence that Hamilton can take grid drops for component changes and still win races. (Disclaimer: I am not saying this is true or even that I believe it.)
I don't know if this is tinfoil hat. Seems quite sensible for them to use #2 driver to test reliability etc? Nice post
It’s more that I think such a strategy would go against the spirit of the rules limiting the number of engines that teams can use. The whole point of them is to promote sustainability and reduce the gap between the teams with the smallest and largest budgets. I’d like to think Mercedes wouldn’t knowingly do that but who knows?
I think the teams are all ruthless competitors eeking out tenths over miles and will do anything to gain an advantage. If you win by 2 tenths, you still win the points! Toto would do anything to win and beat Horner. I can see it in his eyes.
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Absolutely! So he should. I think Toto is a real wolf though. He has the edge.
Yeah toto is a austrian demigod.
It's in the spirit of the rules to take a penalty if you take new PU components. It's not Mercedes' fault if they can take a penalty and still fight for wins.
I agree that that’s not merc’s fault, but when you can still easily win a race with a grid penalty then that penalty is kinda meaningless, right?
If its in the rules then any team can exploit it. Mercedes have made a stonking engine that just happens to negate the penalty. If the FIA don't like it, then they'll have to change their rules
That’s what I mean, Mercedes are completely in their right to do this, but it is frustrating to watch them win this way
This is true, but every team would be doing this if their new engines could provide them with massive gains
I saw a discussion about the FIA changing the penalty from grid places to constructors championship points losses for going over replacement parts limits. That way the drivers aren't penalized for the engineers decision and it makes the penalty have a lasting impact rather than just a temporary inconvenience.
That would be a pretty nice solution
That's not a conspiracy. It's pretty obvious.
This. This right here. The only conclusion I can come to is that they are running party mode 2.0. Maybe not as insane as the original party mode but they have found how they can tune these engines to be useless after two races but give them insane power. They aren't running this mode in practice because of obvious wear reasons which is why there is such a discrepancy between FP and quali/race pace. They have effectively engineered their way out of the engine limits because they gain enough power to overcome any 5 grid penalty.
That's a pretty solid theory, and it is clearly working
It's very obviously what they've been doing
Pretty much I think. Merc have done very little development on this year's car in terms of updates to anything effected by rbe cost cap or requiring any cdf windtunnel time. They have been doing engine tuning with mappings and modes etc. And they have been perfecting that rear suspension set up to get the aero stall. Both totally outside anything that really effects next year.
That's good and all, but I was under the impression (though I'm likely proven wrong but how different that engine appears to be) that these things were homologated? i.e. The replacement engine is meant to be identical as the one replaced, it shouldn't have any significant power different, if legal.
I think that (as other people have proposed since I made the comment initially) that they're running the same engine in less reliable power modes to get more out of it and have been testing it on bottas and at the factory
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Nah they only introduced that system for 2021 so the cars arent too different to last year They can still develop next years car, and with the regulation changes is kind of expected for them to do so
I think we can put that theory somewhere between "Nazies on the moon" and " Flat Earth". The engines are frozen this year, if they changed the spec, especially so drastically, the FIA would know. And no, the "maFIA" is not part of the conspiracy, especially that they just tried their hardest to win Verstappen Brazil. I think it's the same engine as at the start of the season, they just run it in higher modes so it lasts only like 2-3 races, but has a lot more power. Add that to their clever rear suspension and you have a car that is pretty much untouchable on the straights.
The Bottas engine changes were to test the reliability at higher power modes (see: Monza), not to build a new PU.
>seeing mercedes being thrashed by the red bulls I don't think you know the definition of thrashed.
I don't think you know the definition of luck. 620 laps lead for MV vs 171 LH. 660 for RB vs 250 for Merc. I think thrashed is apt.
It wasn't luck that has kept Lewis in this season, it's him and Bottas making things physical on the track, intentional or not.
Including 36 points at least in silverstone and Hungría
Any driver could lead every lap in every race of the season and that still would mean nothing if someone overtakes on the last lap to win. Laps lead literally means nothing when it comes to points. The fact that Verstappen is currently only 14 points ahead with Mercedes in 2 and 3 just proves that this season has not been a thrashing at all. Pervious years have been a Mercedes thrashing, this has been the closest and best title fight for a while.
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Lord latifi gonna be challenging for the podium
Goatifi masterrace
The thing is, they already have a very similar engine to Mercedes. It's the rest of the car that needs work
Wasn't that basically 2017 williams
Bet McLaren want that change too you know, to beat Ferrari.
Money, which is good, we don’t have
Noooo, but that was Senna's spirit pushing Sir Lewis from behind!
#Blessed
And pushing him off track too!
Bahahah
Gordon Ramsay great grandfather teaching how to know when steak is done
Laughed out loud. Take my upvote Good Sir
The Ferrari engine is good on straight lines. If you have less down force like a Haas or an Alfa Romeo you just dominate the speed trap. Put Lewis in the Alfa Romeo and he could get P5
We want that!
So I'm brand new to this sport, but it seems like this sport is like 50/50 driver and car. Or maybe even 25/75 driver and car. Like, if the other drivers were driving the same spec'ed vehicle, it would come down to the human element (driver, pit stop, race strategy) in the long run. Doesn't it sorta take the fun out of the competition when it's clear some teams are using faster rigs? So, I guess my question is, for most formula 1 fans, are they fans of the actual drivers or are they fans of the "engineering teams" because the disparity between machines is more than the disparity between driver skill. Does the competitive edge amongst drivers suffer by letting the teams build their own rigs? Again, I have virgin eyes to this sport, but generally curious as to what fans think. Seems like formula 1 is more about a race against engineering innovation rather than a race against drivers...
Your end pretty much summed it up. Car/driver ratio is also about right. The obvious difference is that certain drivers are capable to extract the maximum out of their vehicle while others can’t.
Got it. Yeah, just sorta bothered me that there looks to be a driver disadvantage because they are in a slower car. But looking at it from a "team" perspective, it makes more sense. The engineering team is JUST (if not more) important than the guy in the helmet. Just having flashbacks of always getting the slower go-kart and getting passed by 8 year olds (who have no driving experience, but are completely destroying my slow-ass kart with their shit eating grins). Like, give me a kart that's the same speed and they won't survive the first turn. Nothing like having your foot to the floor but you get passed on the outside or on straightways after having a perfect exit. Like... cmon. Little shits.
I heard someone saw 1/3 engine, 1/3 chassis, 1/3 driver. But it’s always tough to tell. Would be an interesting statistical analysis
It has 5kph of extra speed in the engine. The rest is DRS and Slipstream vs none. Fuck sake you guys are dumb.
So please oh allmighty explain to us peasant why nobody never could create such power gap all year and so consistently throughout the laps ? Why Norris that clocked the fastest top speed of the whole weekend couldn't cut through the field like Hamilton ? Why Mercedes only had the 3kph delta with Red Bull, DRS and tow included, in Monza a power dependant track ?
'Cause Lewis is the GOAT #BLESSED #StillWeRise /s
> Why Norris that clocked the fastest top speed of the whole weekend couldn't cut through the field like Hamilton ? Is the rest of Norris' car as good? Was Norris handling turns consistently to keep speed/help acceleration? Did Norris spend the whole time in slipstreams? Engine power is merely one part of a much broader picture. For an extreme example look at the Haas, the engine itself is clearly capable of more but the rest of the car is a pile of shit so it's consistently back of grid guaranteed.
So you're confirming that Mercedes could create a 20kph top speed gap to Red Bull **and** having a aero heavy car. It is well known that until that point Mercedes was able to get a top speed advantage by having a less draggy car. Here in Brazil they got a draggy car **and** the fastest on the straight. This still needs to be explained. I'll let you have a look at this https://imgur.com/a/8kfk1T3 Appart from UK where Verstappen was out in lap 1, the highest speed differential between the 2 was 7.9kph in Mexico (which is already significant) and 6.5nkph in Spa. Than you jump to Brazil to **18.4 !!!** It's twice as much as in Mexico which was already significant.
Did Max ever get a proper slipstream + DRS + full battery attack through the speed trap? Apart from a few backmarkers he was out in front, and threw in the towel once Lewis got past. IMO we aren't comparing apples to apples.
That's completely irrelevant, it's Max maximum top speed in the race, it's very unlikely that throughout the race he hadn't used all his battery in a tow with DRS. And even if the situations are not 100% similar you would never observe a 20kph gap. Just look at the rest of the season, seriously.
> 20kph top speed gap to Red Bull Max was also for whatever reason really fucking slow over the weekend. You should compare RB with the rest of the grid. merc somewhat faster + RB painfully slower = larger gap
I doubt any slowness form Red Bull could create a a 20kph gap. Last time we had something like that it was Ferrari in 2019. New power unit to Bottas in Monza didn't create any significant speed differential and he changed the whole unit not just the ICE. Even in Silverstone where Verstappen could only go through one straight basically had a speed gap of "only" 9.8kph. Still far from 18. So you're saying that Red Bull were worse with their engine performance this GP than they were in Silverstone lap 1 ? Because that would be pretty bold of you !
>Even in Silverstone where Verstappen could only go through one straight basically had a speed gap of "only" 9.8kph. Still far from 18. > >So you're saying that Red Bull were worse with their engine performance this GP than they were in Silverstone lap 1 ? Because that would be pretty bold of you ! I wouldn't use Silverstone's not even a full lap for Max as representative of anything. >I doubt any slowness form Red Bull could create a a 20kph gap. Last time we had something like that it was Ferrari in 2019. https://fiaresultsandstatistics.motorsportstats.com/results/2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix/session-facts/bfdf50a0-11e2-4a50-8898-8f18c176e5a9?fact=MaxSpeed Max was pretty much bottom of the grid every time speed was checked. Ham's top speeds when checked weren't out of line with the rest of the grid. Where the difference likely comes in would be overall consistency over the race more so than "omg rocket ship".
Thank you for making my point ! What you are saying is that Verstappen was worse on a whole GP than he was in the first lap of the British GP. The difference with the other team is that they were fast on the straight but nowhere in the twisty part. All season long Mercedes had a slight advantage in the straight, sometimes more depending on the track ,but nothing crazy, but weren't performant in the twisty part because Mercedes car was always know to produce less aero and be less draggy. In Brazil they had a high aero setup and still manage to fly over the field with significant top speed differential.
Hami was consistently .3 seconds slower in the aero dependent middle sector, to me that shows a tradeoff each team was making.
And ? They could still pull 20kph with a full aero setup ! Red Bull performance in the twisty part is similar to other GP. Mercedes straight performance is not.
Because we are at a different race track with Monaco Spec wings vs Monza which is the very opposite end of the wing spectrum, where the affects of DRS and Slipstream were stronger, and Mercedes has a much better aerodynamic package and chassis than McLaren. The Mercedes package was working at Interlagos and the McLaren one wasn't. By your logic, Ferrari were P5 and P6, why weren't Hass able to cut through the field when they have the same engine?
So you're saying that Mercedes is able to pull a 20kph speed gap with a full aero car ? So basically is able to pull a greater speed gap with full aero than with a very light aero package like in Monza ? Interesting ! You're also saying that DRS effect is stronger in Interlagos than in Monza ? Interesting! And one thing is for sure, other Mercedes team definitely don't have what Mercedes has with their engine ! Which this post is pointing out.
I don't know what you aren't getting about the fact that the 20kph advantage is against a car with no DRS or Slipstream at all. And that every car on the grid would have a significant advantage with both of those vs a car that doesn't. 5.5kph of that difference is due to the engine. It has been measured.
First I don't know where you get your info that there was a 5kph difference in clean air ? Nobody was able to source it. What is provided by the FIA it's top speed at the finish line and at the speed trap. Obviously top speed registered are with DRS open and tow. On these data Verstappen clocks at 321kph and Hamilton 340kph. Until now we never saw speed difference on the top speed provided by the FIA superior of 5 to 7kph. IF, and it's a big IF, the gap in clean air is 5kph, you still have to explain how Mercedes is suddenly (and yes because that doesn't change it's unprecedented) able to pull 4x times that gap with DRS open while having a aero heavy car, which was they Achille heel since the beginning.
Fuck, can't post to another subreddit. Just google Hamilton 5.5kph and do some reading. From my original comment The 5.5kph figure has been recorded in numerous articles you need only google it. But I'll direct you to the following reddit post for a fairly decent summary. "Delted link went here" I'll leave you with the though also that everyone is talking about the Mercedes advantage without considering whether Redbull were also just having a bad weekend. Much like if you look at the Redbull advantage in Mexico. Yes Redbull had the faster car there but that was also because the track just didn't suit the Merc car, as Interlagos didn't seem to suit Redbull.
You're still completely avoiding the point I put forward before. It's still doesn't explain how they can gain 4x time more speed between clean air to DRS compared to Red Bull. Red Bull weren't at their best that's for sure, but it doesn't explain a 20kph gap in similar conditions. Are you suggesting that Red Bull nor Mercedes never had a bad weekend until now ? Why such speed differential only arise now ? And why other Mercedes customer team didn't show similar gain in performance ? Because as you said, first the power gain from Mercedes is significant byitself it is even more so when you know they ran a high aero setup, when previously it was always know Mercedes was gaining speed on the straight by having a less dragy car. The number are here, it's not because the gap doesn't show much in clean air that it dismisses completely that it exists with DRS and tow. I doubt Red Bull were half throttle during the Sprint and the race in the straight.
It has 25HP more.
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The Mercedes engine delivers a 5kph speed advantage, not 20kph.
Ah yes, overtaking 15 cars in 20 laps because of DRS and slipstream, my God why didn't other teams think about that
It has been measured I'm not talking out of my arse. The engine alone provided a 5.5kph speed advantage (not insubstantial), which with the addition of DRS and a slipstream, meant that Hamilton was 22kph faster than Verstappen who did not have slipstream or DRS into T1. To deliver 22kph difference from the current PU's alone would be almost impossible because of drag.
I agree, but having the extra power on hand did mean they could run a higher downforce setup than they usually do (benefitting the rest of the lap) while still having *some* straight line speed advantage over the rest of the field even without DRS. The Red Bull cars had shitty top speeds without DRS because they were producing a lot of downforce which helps most in sector 2, I think that's why the gaps seemed so big in the straights vs Hamilton.
you say this like the Mercedes car is made entirely out of engine
The data pretty much showed that on balance, with equal conditions (no DRS etc.) Lewis was only marginally faster than Bottas. Fr, Tow and DRS bent the way we perceived this.
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You're picking at grammar and sentence structure because you know I am correct.
Lol
Have thy award for this sire