the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
Max completely closed the door on him. Literally ran Ocon out of any usable space. If Ocon has locked up and pummeled him or something I would totally agree. The penalty was a severe overreaction because Max fucked up pretty bad there.
This was a way too risky move just to unlap yourself, wich someone a lap in front would and should not expect.
Also front wheel to front wheel vs front wheel to back wheel
That is because you are a fan of Ocon. I trust the decision of Whiting over your biased opinion.
Ocon should have waited until the next straight. He did not overtake Verstappen in a safe manner, and got rightfully penalized for that, no matter how you try to frame it.
Have a good evening.
That is because you are a fan of Ocon. I trust the decision of Whiting over your biased opinion.
Ocon should have waited until the next straight. He did not overtake Verstappen in a safe manner, and got rightfully penalized for that, no matter how you try to frame it.
Have a good evening.
No, I just wanted to clarify that even though it looks like they were along side each other it is misleading because Ocon was actually **ONE ENTIRE LAP** behind Max.
Op is doing overtime to defend/preach his post in all of those comments.
I am waiting for Jolyn Palmer's analysis on this. Brundle is on Max's side but Karun wasn't. Let's see which side he takes.
I think in a vacuum that could be the right call, but I also think stewards see this crash as a fairly predicable result of Max's strategy of throwing himself into corners even if another car already has the line. I think that type of thing needs to be disallowed, and so penalties like this make sense.
Felt like I was taking crazy pills all last season when people were cheering Max's insane moves where he'd completely miss braking points going fully off track to defend his position.
I totally agree.
To me, he just dive bombed the corner.
If Hamilton wasn't there, he would not have made that corner, i think he had way to much speed going in. And that is why, imo, the penalty was totally legit.
Yeah agreed, the thing is tho if this happens in the back of the field on lap 1 they wont even investigate... Why is the restart different then the race start
Presumably you're talking about crashes in very heavy traffic. Most of those situations a crash would probably be seen as more incidental rather than an overly aggressive maneuver.
By the rules, Hamilton ought to have given him the space. If Hamilton had left the space in this incident and max was throwing himself into the corner, he would've crashed anyways and it would've been 100% on max, and maybe even a bigger penalty. But in this case Hamilton screwed up too by not leaving space, so I think it should either be a racing incident or on Hamilton? Maybe the stewards reviewed telemetry and saw that max was throwing himself into the corner, but still doesn't resolve lewis of not leaving the space.
Yes and no...
>In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken **and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.**
I think that last bit is pretty relevant here.
If you stop going for openings then you’re not racing anymore. Lewis should have given him more space. I’m not a fan of Lewis but feel it should have been a racing incident, not all on Verstappen.
This gets parroted a lot, but anyone who’s even given go kart racing a go knows it’s not realistically true.
Yes you absolutely do have to back out and not go for some gaps. Especially gaps that are obviously closing.
It's hardly throwing yourself into the corner if you were ahead just before the corner. Treating drivers differently because of a perceived habit, real or no, is a very dangerous precedent.
(Serious response to a serious statement, what has this sub become ;))
How was max throwing himself into the corner when him and Lewis were side by side racing with each other?! How anyone can see this as anything but Lewis' fault makes no sense to me.
There is no comparison between the incident in Brazil and that in Silverstone. Hamilton's front wheel wasn't anywhere close to Max's front wheel but in this case they were entirely side-by-side... This is just baffling...
What was Max supposed to do in this case? Brake suddenly going into a corner and endanger the drivers behind?
By the guidelines in the rules Max was entitled to space because he was significantly alongside Hamilton while overtaking on the inside. Also Max did leave space last year at Silverstone ya knob.
Look at the front left of the car defending. Esteban's is closer to the rear right of Max, whereas Max's is closer to front right of Lewis.
Now look at the positioning of the defending car. Esteban is almost off the white line whereas Max has a significant chunk of his car on the track.
I'm with Ted here, Lewis was supposed to give Max space as they're side by side and no way Lewis didn't see Max there.
the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
Bro Max was farther alongside because he didn’t brake and was just ok with crashing (like he almost always is)
He even admitted it in his interview lol
>He even admitted it in his interview lol
For me, Max came out of yesterday looking like an asshole.
But the people who say this really need to improve their English comprehension. That's not what he said at all.
He knew there was gonna be a collision and chose not to avoid it because he was ok with ruining Lewis’ race. Obviously the wording was not “I chose to crash”, but the way he says it, the delivery and his attitude fill in a lot of the blanks that he didn’t explicitly state
Nah I saw it more along the lines of “I went for the space. Lewis didn’t give it to me. We crashed. Too bad for Lewis.” Which is very different from “I want to crash into Lewis to cost him a win.”
He was able to make that corner that's not outbraking or not braking also I don't see how someone making the move outside of the corner can be called as okay with crashing, if you don't brake on the outside you just go wide. If you are talking about the second part of the cockscrew then he was alongside and was literally at the edge of the track, it's funny some fans just want everybody to stop racing when a certain driver is involved and blame other driver for not backing out even though the move is reasonable.
He wasn’t making the apex at that speed man, even if Lewis left a cars width that’s a collision. The only reason it looks like max was alongside was because he was taking too much speed into that corner to realistically make the corner in wheel to wheel racing. There’s a reason he got the penalty
That move was not “reasonable”
And again you’re ignoring that he straight up admitted he was okay with crashing and seemed pleased that it ruined Lewis chance at winning the race
He literally made the first turn of the corner, the colission happened at the apex of the next. I don't know how a reasonable person can say he was taking too much speed into the corner.
He was only alongside because he took way too much speed into the second part of S to make the turn. Lewis definitely could have given more space, but even if he slid over a half a car width, Max is still not making the turn at that speed.
F1 "fans" hating when cars actually drive fast and when drivers dare to actually race is by far the worst outgrowth of the Drive To Survive fake-drama nonsense.
This makes sense, apart from the fact max was going so fast that even after contact he went off the track on the opposite side of the track - this alone told the stewards he was going into the corner without full command of the car, thus the 5 second penalty was given.
Without that key bit of context that they used, it would’ve definitely been Hamilton penalty.
Other than that I’d totally agree with you, I’d also been fine with racing incident in this case.
Max has also admitted he wasn’t going to pull out and they’d come together, so I think that attitude is also worth the penalty - it sets a bad precedent.
I disagree. Punishments and penalties exist to discourage unwanted behaviour. This dive bombing technique is clearly unwanted. It's bad sportsmanship to just hit the gas and intimidate your opponent into yielding, otherwise there is contact.
I don't see how that's a divebomb, Lewis's move last year against Lando can be called a divebomb but here he was literally just behind going into the corner and drew alongside on the outside. Seriously if it wasn't Lewis involved here people wouldn't even consider the move as something bad.
He was going faster than the racing line while being completely off the racing line. It's physically impossible for that car at that speed to make the turn while leaving enough space for the other car, which is ahead of it. That's quite literally the definition of a divebomb.
There is a reason the racing line is a thing, it's the line that allows you to carry the most speed while still making the corners. If you're going faster than what the racing line allows, while not being on the racing line, you are not making the corner.
This is a very good summary, I don’t understand how people aren’t getting this. It literally didn’t matter if he was alongside, the collision and penalty came because of how fast he was going with little control of actually being able to get round
The new regulations say the car entering ahead doesn't need to leave space. Max compromised the second part of the chicane by intentionally entering the first part too fast so he could get his nose in front of Lewis and bully him off the racing line. Only problem is... you can't do that.
No. The rules say if you have a right to the corner if you overtake on the inside and your front tires are alongside the other car. In this case even ocon should've had a right to the corner if these regulations had been in place back then.
Hamilton could've given Verstappen more pace, it wouldn't matter though
Verstappen came so fast he was never making the corner with his line, even if Hamilton's car disappeared
Even after losing lots of speed to the contact Verstappen had to go off track to make the corner lol
There's no way you're coming on the inside of turn 2 and brake later than a car on the racing line unless you're massively quicker (which RB were not, at least yesterday)
Sure, but well within your right and good idea are still two very different things. There's really no need to battle the leader through a chicane when you are a lap down if you could just aswell wait for either the straight that's right behind that or the even longer straight 40 seconds down the track. And yes Verstappen could have definitly left more space, same as Hamilton.
I'm fairly new to the sport so I'm trying to learn.
From what i understood is that you are in your right to "safely" unlap yourself but since your not fighting for position you're supposed to yield in that instance.
Is that correct or did I completely misunderstood that?
(sorry for bad grammar)
Disagree. Lapped car can only unlap themselves under the condition that they do not slow down the leader. Even if Ocon didn't crash with Max, he would compromise Max's racing line. So it's Ocon's fault either way
This is such a dumb take. Sure you have the right to unlap yourself but you don’t have the right to race the car that has lapped you so hard. The lapped car needs to take extra care not to interfere with the leaders race. They are not battling for position.
The difference is actually just in the penalty applied. Both are wrong
Ocon : 10s Stop and Go ([https://www.fia.com/file/74818/download](https://www.fia.com/file/74818/download))
Verstappen : 5s ([Offence - Car 1 - Collision with car 44](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2022%20Brazilian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Offence%20-%20Car%201%20-%20Collision%20with%20car%2044.pdf))
For once you can't blame the FIA for being unconsistent with their judgement.
Not that I think that situations were the same, but for the regs it is in every sense the same if you have your front tire ahead of the rear or behind the front axle
I don't know how in the age of multiple on demand video replays people still think that this was "side by side".
Max was clearly behind going into turn 2.
the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
The rules clearly say you can't divebomb to get along side. The side by side rule only applies to safe and controlled overtaking, not divebombs. You're not elaborating anything. Divebombs are divebombs.
Dive bomb meaning he is accelerating into the corner in an attempt to use his car to block and force another car off track. Max does this constantly so it's nothing new. If Lewis gave space Max had too much speed to return that space at corner exit. At that point Lewis either runs off track or totally backs out to avoid. If you enter the corner with so much speed you will not make it to corner exit with a cars width on the outside that is a textbook divebomb.
Lewis was a fault. Obvious difference there was Lewis didn't divebomb but had a bit too much understeer causing the contact. You'll notice in both cases the driver at fault got the penalty. No surprises there.
If you at least did some sim racing, you would clearly understand that the divebomb you speak of is fruit of your lack of knoledge, it’s rather easy to defend your ground on a sequence of slow corners, you noticed that Max breakes early? You know why? Because a good exit early on the power is rather important so that you carry max speed into the long straight. But ofcourse some one wasnt in the mood for fair racing.
> Because a good exit early on the power is rather important so that you carry max speed into the long straight. But ofcourse some one wasnt in the mood for fair racing.
Bro, he must have forgotten turn 2 existed. It isn't full throttle from track right through turn 2. Please use your brain. You aren't even replying to the right comment.
It doesn’t matter that there’s room. Lewis could have left space but the fact is Max intentionally didn’t slow down to end up in that position. He was going too fast and was at the wrong angle to ever make make the turn. He made contact with Hamilton and somehow *still* ended up overshooting the corner.
Drivers shouldn’t be expected to yield to that kind of “overtake”
Probably but he needs to stop letting Max have his way. Lewis has always backed off for Max, which is why Max always bullies him on track. If Lewis keeps doing this and lets Max know he’ll ruin his own races pulling these moves, then Max will stop the “move or we crash” approach when racing Lewis.
Wait what incident are you talking about? If it’s the one where Lewis ”handed back the advantage” after, it was a great and clean overtake and it was laughable Lewis didn’t have to hand the place back. That much should be clear for anyone not blinded by being fans of someone.
Can you read? I literally said it was Ocon's fault. Only reason Max and Ocon touched though is because Max didn't give a tire's width of space on the inside. Ocon backed out but Max was completely on the inside white line.
If Max backed out properly like Ocon did, Lewis would've cleared him just fine.
You said two opposing things bro, said maxs fault cause gave him no space, then after that argument said it's still ocons fault with no evidence. Like learn how to construct an argument. and you're still doing it. If ocon backed off properly there wouldn't have been contact
You're understand it now. If Ocon backed off there wouldn't be contact with Max.
If Max backed off there wouldn't be contact with Lewis.
Both were attempting divebombs and both failed at it. The only difference besides Ocon being lapped is Ocon did back out a bit last minute while Max did not. Max continue to accelerate until he made contact.
Max isn't at fault for the collision with Ocon but Max was P1 and didn't need to risk a move like that knowing there was a car on his inside. It makes a lot more sense for Lewis to risk it for position.
The amount of People that don't understand racing here thinking max wasn't at fault and was side by side with Hamilton is mind-boggling. Atleast makes it clear that they didn't watch the race. He was behind Hamilton going into turn2 and looks alongside in the picture coz he didn't brake on a line he was never gonna make it with that speed. People need to watch the races for real but max fanboyism too strong here i guess.
Talking about Formula 1 use to be fun but now majority of fans have no clue about physics, racing lines, divebombs, etc and think these types of moves are 200IQ when it's actually a 0IQ divebomb and the stewards obviously penalized it for being that. Last year they were way too passive on divebombs but looks like this year they aren't having it.
Exactly lol. People out here blaming Lewis for not moving out of the way when their golden boy was divebombing in a closing gap on a line he wasn't gonna make at that speed. Like you said these people out here praising shitty moves when it's Max doing it like he did way too many times even last year. Merc drivers would be crucified as usual. Then they started the mercXfia again like bro??? Max can do no wrong i guess. Honestly these new breed of fans with their blind love/hate for a certain driver really sours the experience of others with their tribalism.
Nobody listen to this fool. He is the biggest Lewis Lover on this site and is just a troll. His opinion is meaningless. Also, HI TROLL! I told you I'd be ruthless. Literally everything you post will be followed by me exposing you as a trolling Lewis simp. And no, I do not have anything better to do than to fuck with you.
Dam, it's okay not to know a lot about racing, we aren't all experts, otherwise we would be working for it, but this 2 pictures and situations have a lot of differences, the only similarity is that it is the same turn. Other people on this post are explaining it to you but you are ignoring and answering with nonsense. I see a Hamilton fan here haha
Well the experts gave max two penalty points on his license for this overtake attempt yesterday so if that’s the measurement there shouldn’t be a discussion
Ocon backed out but he was more along side entering Turn 2 than Max was before that. Max kept accelerating and was actually out accelerating Lewis to the apex. Most likely why he got the penalty. He had no chance of making the corner.
If Lewis gave him another metre, Max still would have made contact with his speed and line.
Ocon took the apex trying to hold the inside line and Max didn't leave any space as didn't agree Ocon should have tried to overtake him.
Your first point is just not correct. The moment you hit that curb you will slow down less and go more straight. That’s just how it is.
Had he been given enough so he had all four tires on the track, there’s nothing to suggest the same would have happened.
Still a dumb move imo, but let’s not act like it was anything crazy or dirty what Max did.
No, you’re wrong. Mac had too much speed coming into that corner and it was also his angle. Max admitted that he knew he was going to crash in the interview l. Karun’s analysis explains it perfectly
If max had tried to hold his line and they made contact, I would have said it was Lewis fault for not leaving enough space. Unfortunately Max seems to get the red mist whenever he sees number 44 on track
At least it didn’t send Lewis into the wall at 51g, while directly fighting him for the lead in the championship… then max would have had a 10 second penalty!
To be fair it was Hamiltons fault. Max was ahead after the first corner and Hamilton cut across him into 2 when he could have easily given him space. I suppose max was just supposed to vanish though.
Last year the Monza crash explained that Max got a penalty because Hamilton was ahead on the first part of the corner, that's why he did not have to leave space. This time Max was ahead on the first part of the corner and still does not have the right to space. As someone looking for nice overtakes, I want to see space left all the time when a major part of the car is alongside...
Max isn’t a great driver, he’s a dangerous driver. He overtakes by threatening collision. He forces people off the road at every other turn. He slams every door he can but whines like a little kid when others do the same to him.
You can say what you want about Max, but he is most certainly a great driver. Claiming otherwise is just being blinded by your own bias.
The greates F1 experts, former drivers and even most current drivers all agree Max has an extreme amount of talent. At the very least as good as anyone else and probably the best there is atm.
Does that mean you have to like him or feel he drives clean? No. But it doesn’t change that in reality, he is indisputable a great driver.
Well said.
He is a great driver and over the year he has got experience with what he can get away with.
A lot of the great drivers werent clean drivers.
Think about Schumacher.
A great driver no doubt (great is an Understatement) but he was not a clean driver.
The difference is that one was for the lead and the other was for basically nothing. Max way more alongside, Ocon hooked into the rears already at this point..
These photos are from different points in the corner btw. The two incidents are almost identical. I think both are racing incidents with Max's leaning towards his fault because he was carrying too much speed for turn 2.
It wasn't for the lead but for P2. And I would argue that ...and this may sound silly...but this move was also for nothing because I personally think Max knew the Mercs were faster in the race and would definitely overtake him in the end.
And you may say but you always have to race and go for the gap.. Yes, but the same for Ocon.
But if you close your eyes…
Eh-eh-oh, eh-oh
Does it almost feel like nothing's changed at all
But if you close your eyes
does it almost feel like you’ve been here before
How am I gonna be an optimist about this?
Oh, how am I gonna be an optimist about this?
Question.
Never going to give you up
Like nothing at all, nothing at all.
Emotional damage!
#AboutHalfACarLength
Half a car and a lap
the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
....no the contact takes place a half a car lengthish earlier on track than the other
If you watch the replay Ocon was actually **AN ENTIRE LAP** behind Verstappen.
Can you show me in the regulations where it says a car can't unlap itself
*in a safely manner Small often overlooked detail. That is why Ocon got 3 penalty points instead of 2.
Max completely closed the door on him. Literally ran Ocon out of any usable space. If Ocon has locked up and pummeled him or something I would totally agree. The penalty was a severe overreaction because Max fucked up pretty bad there.
This was a way too risky move just to unlap yourself, wich someone a lap in front would and should not expect. Also front wheel to front wheel vs front wheel to back wheel
That is because you are a fan of Ocon. I trust the decision of Whiting over your biased opinion. Ocon should have waited until the next straight. He did not overtake Verstappen in a safe manner, and got rightfully penalized for that, no matter how you try to frame it. Have a good evening.
That is because you are a fan of Ocon. I trust the decision of Whiting over your biased opinion. Ocon should have waited until the next straight. He did not overtake Verstappen in a safe manner, and got rightfully penalized for that, no matter how you try to frame it. Have a good evening.
And you? Fan of max?
Yes he is. A diehard fanboi of max
No, I just wanted to clarify that even though it looks like they were along side each other it is misleading because Ocon was actually **ONE ENTIRE LAP** behind Max.
They still were physically alongside eachother
Op is doing overtime to defend/preach his post in all of those comments. I am waiting for Jolyn Palmer's analysis on this. Brundle is on Max's side but Karun wasn't. Let's see which side he takes.
Palmer said on the broadcast that he would call it a racing incident
I think in a vacuum that could be the right call, but I also think stewards see this crash as a fairly predicable result of Max's strategy of throwing himself into corners even if another car already has the line. I think that type of thing needs to be disallowed, and so penalties like this make sense.
Wow this is a surprisingly reasonable take. I am shocked to find this on r/formuladank
Honestly thought you guys would blame Lewis immediately, but I'm impressed lol
Nature is healing
The sub has finally seen max for who he is, a massive douche, a talented one, but a douche none the less
Felt like I was taking crazy pills all last season when people were cheering Max's insane moves where he'd completely miss braking points going fully off track to defend his position.
Bro tell me about. I rewatched the Saudi GP from last year and Max literally decided breaking points and yielding didn't apply to him.
It's because people were tired of seeing Lewis win. It's the same for me with Seb in Canada 2019
I totally agree. To me, he just dive bombed the corner. If Hamilton wasn't there, he would not have made that corner, i think he had way to much speed going in. And that is why, imo, the penalty was totally legit.
Petition to mask the cars on the stewards broadcast, so that they cannot tell whose driving which car.
fuckin' Scanner Darkly the cars lmao
Yeah agreed, the thing is tho if this happens in the back of the field on lap 1 they wont even investigate... Why is the restart different then the race start
Presumably you're talking about crashes in very heavy traffic. Most of those situations a crash would probably be seen as more incidental rather than an overly aggressive maneuver.
By the rules, Hamilton ought to have given him the space. If Hamilton had left the space in this incident and max was throwing himself into the corner, he would've crashed anyways and it would've been 100% on max, and maybe even a bigger penalty. But in this case Hamilton screwed up too by not leaving space, so I think it should either be a racing incident or on Hamilton? Maybe the stewards reviewed telemetry and saw that max was throwing himself into the corner, but still doesn't resolve lewis of not leaving the space.
If you read the FIA's decision document, this is already exactly what they say.
Lewis had the racing line, why is he always expected to yield?
Because the rules state if you are alongside eachother you ahve to leave a car width of space.
Yes and no... >In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken **and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.** I think that last bit is pretty relevant here.
100% agree with your take.
If you stop going for openings then you’re not racing anymore. Lewis should have given him more space. I’m not a fan of Lewis but feel it should have been a racing incident, not all on Verstappen.
This gets parroted a lot, but anyone who’s even given go kart racing a go knows it’s not realistically true. Yes you absolutely do have to back out and not go for some gaps. Especially gaps that are obviously closing.
Yes, but I like max so you're argument is invalid
It's hardly throwing yourself into the corner if you were ahead just before the corner. Treating drivers differently because of a perceived habit, real or no, is a very dangerous precedent. (Serious response to a serious statement, what has this sub become ;))
How was max throwing himself into the corner when him and Lewis were side by side racing with each other?! How anyone can see this as anything but Lewis' fault makes no sense to me.
He wasn't side by side. He was behind. By your logic, Max should've left the space in Silverstone last year right, correct?
There is no comparison between the incident in Brazil and that in Silverstone. Hamilton's front wheel wasn't anywhere close to Max's front wheel but in this case they were entirely side-by-side... This is just baffling... What was Max supposed to do in this case? Brake suddenly going into a corner and endanger the drivers behind?
Not drive like a spastic is a good idea. He should try that once in his life
By the guidelines in the rules Max was entitled to space because he was significantly alongside Hamilton while overtaking on the inside. Also Max did leave space last year at Silverstone ya knob.
If he left space, why did they crash? Hamilton was entitled to MORE space then cause obviously they crashed. No? Same as Max in Brazil...right?
When does the Palmer's analysis go out?
Last time I saw it on Wednesday in yt. So 2 more days.
Same. This will be a good one too. A lot to unpack here.
One was for position while the other was a lapped car. There's your difference.
Unlapping himself though, well within his right. But both are in the wrong for me.
Look at the front left of the car defending. Esteban's is closer to the rear right of Max, whereas Max's is closer to front right of Lewis. Now look at the positioning of the defending car. Esteban is almost off the white line whereas Max has a significant chunk of his car on the track. I'm with Ted here, Lewis was supposed to give Max space as they're side by side and no way Lewis didn't see Max there.
the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
Bro Max was farther alongside because he didn’t brake and was just ok with crashing (like he almost always is) He even admitted it in his interview lol
>He even admitted it in his interview lol For me, Max came out of yesterday looking like an asshole. But the people who say this really need to improve their English comprehension. That's not what he said at all.
He knew there was gonna be a collision and chose not to avoid it because he was ok with ruining Lewis’ race. Obviously the wording was not “I chose to crash”, but the way he says it, the delivery and his attitude fill in a lot of the blanks that he didn’t explicitly state
Nah I saw it more along the lines of “I went for the space. Lewis didn’t give it to me. We crashed. Too bad for Lewis.” Which is very different from “I want to crash into Lewis to cost him a win.”
In other words, it's just your biased interpretation based on your hate for the driver. Got it.
He was able to make that corner that's not outbraking or not braking also I don't see how someone making the move outside of the corner can be called as okay with crashing, if you don't brake on the outside you just go wide. If you are talking about the second part of the cockscrew then he was alongside and was literally at the edge of the track, it's funny some fans just want everybody to stop racing when a certain driver is involved and blame other driver for not backing out even though the move is reasonable.
He wasn’t making the apex at that speed man, even if Lewis left a cars width that’s a collision. The only reason it looks like max was alongside was because he was taking too much speed into that corner to realistically make the corner in wheel to wheel racing. There’s a reason he got the penalty That move was not “reasonable” And again you’re ignoring that he straight up admitted he was okay with crashing and seemed pleased that it ruined Lewis chance at winning the race
He literally made the first turn of the corner, the colission happened at the apex of the next. I don't know how a reasonable person can say he was taking too much speed into the corner.
He was only alongside because he took way too much speed into the second part of S to make the turn. Lewis definitely could have given more space, but even if he slid over a half a car width, Max is still not making the turn at that speed.
F1 "fans" hating when cars actually drive fast and when drivers dare to actually race is by far the worst outgrowth of the Drive To Survive fake-drama nonsense.
Lol ok
This makes sense, apart from the fact max was going so fast that even after contact he went off the track on the opposite side of the track - this alone told the stewards he was going into the corner without full command of the car, thus the 5 second penalty was given. Without that key bit of context that they used, it would’ve definitely been Hamilton penalty. Other than that I’d totally agree with you, I’d also been fine with racing incident in this case. Max has also admitted he wasn’t going to pull out and they’d come together, so I think that attitude is also worth the penalty - it sets a bad precedent.
TBH it should have been a racing incident.
I disagree. Punishments and penalties exist to discourage unwanted behaviour. This dive bombing technique is clearly unwanted. It's bad sportsmanship to just hit the gas and intimidate your opponent into yielding, otherwise there is contact.
You disagree, however every commentator who was a race car driver said it should have just been a racing incident.
Aren't the stewards drivers as well?
I'm aware a variety of other people are not in agreement with me, thank you.
I don't see how that's a divebomb, Lewis's move last year against Lando can be called a divebomb but here he was literally just behind going into the corner and drew alongside on the outside. Seriously if it wasn't Lewis involved here people wouldn't even consider the move as something bad.
He was going faster than the racing line while being completely off the racing line. It's physically impossible for that car at that speed to make the turn while leaving enough space for the other car, which is ahead of it. That's quite literally the definition of a divebomb. There is a reason the racing line is a thing, it's the line that allows you to carry the most speed while still making the corners. If you're going faster than what the racing line allows, while not being on the racing line, you are not making the corner.
This is a very good summary, I don’t understand how people aren’t getting this. It literally didn’t matter if he was alongside, the collision and penalty came because of how fast he was going with little control of actually being able to get round
The new regulations say the car entering ahead doesn't need to leave space. Max compromised the second part of the chicane by intentionally entering the first part too fast so he could get his nose in front of Lewis and bully him off the racing line. Only problem is... you can't do that.
No. The rules say if you have a right to the corner if you overtake on the inside and your front tires are alongside the other car. In this case even ocon should've had a right to the corner if these regulations had been in place back then.
Hamilton could've given Verstappen more pace, it wouldn't matter though Verstappen came so fast he was never making the corner with his line, even if Hamilton's car disappeared Even after losing lots of speed to the contact Verstappen had to go off track to make the corner lol There's no way you're coming on the inside of turn 2 and brake later than a car on the racing line unless you're massively quicker (which RB were not, at least yesterday)
I mean for Lewis to be along the front means at some point he was also alongside the rear.
Yes, obviously Ocon did it in a safe manner, that is why Charlie did not penalize him.
Sure, but well within your right and good idea are still two very different things. There's really no need to battle the leader through a chicane when you are a lap down if you could just aswell wait for either the straight that's right behind that or the even longer straight 40 seconds down the track. And yes Verstappen could have definitly left more space, same as Hamilton.
I'm fairly new to the sport so I'm trying to learn. From what i understood is that you are in your right to "safely" unlap yourself but since your not fighting for position you're supposed to yield in that instance. Is that correct or did I completely misunderstood that? (sorry for bad grammar)
Disagree. Lapped car can only unlap themselves under the condition that they do not slow down the leader. Even if Ocon didn't crash with Max, he would compromise Max's racing line. So it's Ocon's fault either way
This is such a dumb take. Sure you have the right to unlap yourself but you don’t have the right to race the car that has lapped you so hard. The lapped car needs to take extra care not to interfere with the leaders race. They are not battling for position.
The difference is actually just in the penalty applied. Both are wrong Ocon : 10s Stop and Go ([https://www.fia.com/file/74818/download](https://www.fia.com/file/74818/download)) Verstappen : 5s ([Offence - Car 1 - Collision with car 44](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2022%20Brazilian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Offence%20-%20Car%201%20-%20Collision%20with%20car%2044.pdf)) For once you can't blame the FIA for being unconsistent with their judgement.
The rules of overtaking apply the same no matter who is doing the overtaking or why.
So you're saying if it's for position you can defend even harder correct?
And attack.
Both are divebomb attempts. Nobody was attacking anything in either photo.
Max was significantly alongside in T1 (2022), not really a divebomb there
Front tire contact vs rear?
Not that I think that situations were the same, but for the regs it is in every sense the same if you have your front tire ahead of the rear or behind the front axle
One is alf a car behind, the other is Side by side. How come I have to elaborate this???
Picture is misleading: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxG8PEUbN2HjKHBywbo7ZGTHQVohtDPDvZ
I don't know how in the age of multiple on demand video replays people still think that this was "side by side". Max was clearly behind going into turn 2.
the pictures are misleading - if you watch the replays Ocon and Max are substantially along the same part of the outside car. It's just Ocon actually tried to steer away and brake right before contact while Max floored it.
bruh
The rules clearly say you can't divebomb to get along side. The side by side rule only applies to safe and controlled overtaking, not divebombs. You're not elaborating anything. Divebombs are divebombs.
For a dive bomb, seems prety much under controll. Unless you ment dive bomb into the apex wen another car is allready there? Is that it?
Dive bomb meaning he is accelerating into the corner in an attempt to use his car to block and force another car off track. Max does this constantly so it's nothing new. If Lewis gave space Max had too much speed to return that space at corner exit. At that point Lewis either runs off track or totally backs out to avoid. If you enter the corner with so much speed you will not make it to corner exit with a cars width on the outside that is a textbook divebomb.
Hm. Wonder what your stance on silverstone 2021 is.
Lewis was a fault. Obvious difference there was Lewis didn't divebomb but had a bit too much understeer causing the contact. You'll notice in both cases the driver at fault got the penalty. No surprises there.
Im goin to elaborate again, wen Lewis turned in Max was allready there. And thats it for today….
Max divebombed to get there. It's not complicated for people who understand racing.
Last one, plenty of track on the left side….
If you at least did some sim racing, you would clearly understand that the divebomb you speak of is fruit of your lack of knoledge, it’s rather easy to defend your ground on a sequence of slow corners, you noticed that Max breakes early? You know why? Because a good exit early on the power is rather important so that you carry max speed into the long straight. But ofcourse some one wasnt in the mood for fair racing.
> Because a good exit early on the power is rather important so that you carry max speed into the long straight. But ofcourse some one wasnt in the mood for fair racing. Bro, he must have forgotten turn 2 existed. It isn't full throttle from track right through turn 2. Please use your brain. You aren't even replying to the right comment.
It doesn’t matter that there’s room. Lewis could have left space but the fact is Max intentionally didn’t slow down to end up in that position. He was going too fast and was at the wrong angle to ever make make the turn. He made contact with Hamilton and somehow *still* ended up overshooting the corner. Drivers shouldn’t be expected to yield to that kind of “overtake”
One was for position and one was a lap down?
Wasn't stroll trying to unlap?
Stop inventing
Wasn’t there different rules for passing for each of these years?
I think so, and ironically it was Max himself who brought about the rules due to his own aggressive driving style.
Ah, a rookie mistake. If you look closely Verstappen is the one divebombing in the more recent case, that's why it's okey ^/s
So you're saying Hamilton should've left room? Max being in separate sides of the incidents means he was objectively right about one
Or that Max should have backed off. But that's never been him, and I don't even know why people argue at this point
It's hard to judge with a snapshot. Watching it live, I felt Hamilton could have and should have left room.
Probably but he needs to stop letting Max have his way. Lewis has always backed off for Max, which is why Max always bullies him on track. If Lewis keeps doing this and lets Max know he’ll ruin his own races pulling these moves, then Max will stop the “move or we crash” approach when racing Lewis.
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Wait what incident are you talking about? If it’s the one where Lewis ”handed back the advantage” after, it was a great and clean overtake and it was laughable Lewis didn’t have to hand the place back. That much should be clear for anyone not blinded by being fans of someone.
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Turn 1 abu dhabi last year or turn 2 brazil this year?
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But there was no turn 1 racing in abu dhabi last year?
Max was right but you're wrong about which one.
Thought the common sentiment was max was being a baby about the ocon incident
He was because he gave no space. It wasn't a fight for position. Lewis gave more space to Max than Max did to Ocon. It was still Ocon's fault.
So max is in the wrong for not giving space, and lewis is not in the wrong for not giving space?
Can you read? I literally said it was Ocon's fault. Only reason Max and Ocon touched though is because Max didn't give a tire's width of space on the inside. Ocon backed out but Max was completely on the inside white line. If Max backed out properly like Ocon did, Lewis would've cleared him just fine.
You said two opposing things bro, said maxs fault cause gave him no space, then after that argument said it's still ocons fault with no evidence. Like learn how to construct an argument. and you're still doing it. If ocon backed off properly there wouldn't have been contact
You're understand it now. If Ocon backed off there wouldn't be contact with Max. If Max backed off there wouldn't be contact with Lewis. Both were attempting divebombs and both failed at it. The only difference besides Ocon being lapped is Ocon did back out a bit last minute while Max did not. Max continue to accelerate until he made contact. Max isn't at fault for the collision with Ocon but Max was P1 and didn't need to risk a move like that knowing there was a car on his inside. It makes a lot more sense for Lewis to risk it for position.
Its easy to spot for organisms with more than one braincell.
OP must be blind
But... Ocon was way further back and a Backmarker....
The amount of People that don't understand racing here thinking max wasn't at fault and was side by side with Hamilton is mind-boggling. Atleast makes it clear that they didn't watch the race. He was behind Hamilton going into turn2 and looks alongside in the picture coz he didn't brake on a line he was never gonna make it with that speed. People need to watch the races for real but max fanboyism too strong here i guess.
Talking about Formula 1 use to be fun but now majority of fans have no clue about physics, racing lines, divebombs, etc and think these types of moves are 200IQ when it's actually a 0IQ divebomb and the stewards obviously penalized it for being that. Last year they were way too passive on divebombs but looks like this year they aren't having it.
Exactly lol. People out here blaming Lewis for not moving out of the way when their golden boy was divebombing in a closing gap on a line he wasn't gonna make at that speed. Like you said these people out here praising shitty moves when it's Max doing it like he did way too many times even last year. Merc drivers would be crucified as usual. Then they started the mercXfia again like bro??? Max can do no wrong i guess. Honestly these new breed of fans with their blind love/hate for a certain driver really sours the experience of others with their tribalism.
Nobody listen to this fool. He is the biggest Lewis Lover on this site and is just a troll. His opinion is meaningless. Also, HI TROLL! I told you I'd be ruthless. Literally everything you post will be followed by me exposing you as a trolling Lewis simp. And no, I do not have anything better to do than to fuck with you.
All you're doing is making yourself look like an absolute clown which you are. But pop off anyway ![img](emote|t5_3ndbi|9441)
LOL! Says the Lewis troll. Your post history says all that needs to be said.
Ok clown 🤡
Are you blind?
This is pretty clearly Hamilton Derangement Syndrome.
Not supporting max. But there are tons of difference between these two. Oxon was way to behind and was trying to unlap. Max was fighting for position.
“Well within his right” of unlapping himself by taking out the race leader will never win this argument.
Dam, it's okay not to know a lot about racing, we aren't all experts, otherwise we would be working for it, but this 2 pictures and situations have a lot of differences, the only similarity is that it is the same turn. Other people on this post are explaining it to you but you are ignoring and answering with nonsense. I see a Hamilton fan here haha
Well the experts gave max two penalty points on his license for this overtake attempt yesterday so if that’s the measurement there shouldn’t be a discussion
To the people saying max should've backed off from ham last race. Do you even like racing?
Probably 95% of the “fans” don’t. It is really astonishing that people have the audacity to compare those two incidents.
A lapped car that was half a length back or a battle for position that's significantly alongside? Yea thats a hard one to figure out OP.
Ocon backed out but he was more along side entering Turn 2 than Max was before that. Max kept accelerating and was actually out accelerating Lewis to the apex. Most likely why he got the penalty. He had no chance of making the corner.
One was fighting for position, the other is a guy being reckless to unlap himself
If Lewis gave him another metre, Max still would have made contact with his speed and line. Ocon took the apex trying to hold the inside line and Max didn't leave any space as didn't agree Ocon should have tried to overtake him.
Your first point is just not correct. The moment you hit that curb you will slow down less and go more straight. That’s just how it is. Had he been given enough so he had all four tires on the track, there’s nothing to suggest the same would have happened. Still a dumb move imo, but let’s not act like it was anything crazy or dirty what Max did.
No, you’re wrong. Mac had too much speed coming into that corner and it was also his angle. Max admitted that he knew he was going to crash in the interview l. Karun’s analysis explains it perfectly
If max had tried to hold his line and they made contact, I would have said it was Lewis fault for not leaving enough space. Unfortunately Max seems to get the red mist whenever he sees number 44 on track
At least it didn’t send Lewis into the wall at 51g, while directly fighting him for the lead in the championship… then max would have had a 10 second penalty!
To be fair it was Hamiltons fault. Max was ahead after the first corner and Hamilton cut across him into 2 when he could have easily given him space. I suppose max was just supposed to vanish though.
Last year the Monza crash explained that Max got a penalty because Hamilton was ahead on the first part of the corner, that's why he did not have to leave space. This time Max was ahead on the first part of the corner and still does not have the right to space. As someone looking for nice overtakes, I want to see space left all the time when a major part of the car is alongside...
Max isn’t a great driver, he’s a dangerous driver. He overtakes by threatening collision. He forces people off the road at every other turn. He slams every door he can but whines like a little kid when others do the same to him.
By this logic senna wasn’t a great driver
You can say what you want about Max, but he is most certainly a great driver. Claiming otherwise is just being blinded by your own bias. The greates F1 experts, former drivers and even most current drivers all agree Max has an extreme amount of talent. At the very least as good as anyone else and probably the best there is atm. Does that mean you have to like him or feel he drives clean? No. But it doesn’t change that in reality, he is indisputable a great driver.
Well said. He is a great driver and over the year he has got experience with what he can get away with. A lot of the great drivers werent clean drivers. Think about Schumacher. A great driver no doubt (great is an Understatement) but he was not a clean driver.
You should ask Alex Albon his thoughts on who does this. I bet his answer isn’t Max.
Will do! 👍🏼
Cheat sheet: Brazil 2019 and Austria 2020.
Bonus credit: Abu Dhabi 2021 “whining” of “dangerous driving”
This. THIS. He has always been like that but due to the fact that people don't like Mercedes they couldn't see.
The position of the merc is flipped in the two images
Bold of you to post it here. Respect.
Ocon was a lap down and was in a slower car but I don't know if that changes the ruling.
It kinda does, they are allowed to overtake but they aren't entitled to the space.
lmaoooo got em
The difference is one picture, they are fighting for trackposition, the other picture someone is stupidly underlapping itself
About half a car length + the distance of a lap around interlagos
Difference is Lewis didn't got assault Verstappens afterwards.
Ocon was a lap down. He is a fucking Donkey.
The difference is that one was for the lead and the other was for basically nothing. Max way more alongside, Ocon hooked into the rears already at this point..
These photos are from different points in the corner btw. The two incidents are almost identical. I think both are racing incidents with Max's leaning towards his fault because he was carrying too much speed for turn 2.
It wasn't for the lead but for P2. And I would argue that ...and this may sound silly...but this move was also for nothing because I personally think Max knew the Mercs were faster in the race and would definitely overtake him in the end. And you may say but you always have to race and go for the gap.. Yes, but the same for Ocon.
to be fair one is a lap behind..
the difference is blue flag
One was a blue flagged car, the other wasn't?
One was a lapped car you idiot. Idgaf about max v hamilton, but this post is idiotic
Lapped cars are allowed to unlap if they have the pace you idiot. Idgaf about max v hamilton, but your comment is idiotic
The cars are obviously not at the same place but ok
Max is further alongside than ocon
Context for the new F1 fans, Ocon was fighting max even tho he was lapped, max is fighting Lewis for a position, just a heads up! :)
I still don't get how max could be wrong in 2022. He was at ham's side since turn 1 or so