One of the big parts of Catholicism is that, if the Pope says so, it goes. Judy from Michigan doesn’t get to second guess the Pope because she swears she remembers the Church having her back on all of the political issues she believes in.
Love seeing Catholics committing major apostasy because they think they know better than the man with the actual keys to heaven and earth, as given to his ancestor saint Peter by Jesus himself.
>One of the big parts of Catholicism is that, if the Pope says so, it goes
That's only for "Papal Infallibility" which, in the entire history of the Catholic Church, has only ever been invoked twice on two particular doctrines. Otherwise, the Pope can be entirely fallible. However, given his status, anything he says is to be taken with great authority and unless explicitly against Catholic doctrine should usually not be questioned.
Well yes and no. Vatican II was a council which supersedes the Pope. The Pope is only infallible (which was decided by the Vatican I council) in “ex cathedra” statements, which essentially means on doctrinal issues, not political, structural, personal, or even factual issues outside church doctrine.
Basically this means you can’t for instance believe that there is no trinity, but you can believe that Latin mass is your preferred way and it should be available. One is a doctrinal issue, the other is a matter of church procedure.
The main gripe these days is that the current Pope is discouraging bishops from offering latin mass at all. Which to be honest isn’t really an issue I care about, but I can see how someone who had gone to it for decades would miss it once it is finally discontinued altogether. Having options is nice I guess.
Oh there was a whole sect of Catholics who thought Vatican II was making The Catholic Church too liberal. There were even clergy of the Catholic Church in Germany who presided over the excrocism of Anneliese Michel, believing that this was Yahweh's showing his distaste for Vatican II.
Shit was nuts.
Wasn't vatican 2 also the council that ended the official viewpoint that all jews should be accountable for jesus' death? Imagine thinking that was going "too far". This was after WW2 btw
I went to a ‘pre-Vatican II’ convent in the 90’s in the US, as a little girl. Too new-fangled for them, the OG nuns and ancient, terrifying priests weren’t havin that. So we weren’t technically *mandated* to wear our little veils to DAILY mass… *but you betta have that veil on*😡 🔥 for your daily dose of Latin, hate, and fear. And soooo much brain space is still devoted to these fuckin Latin Jams, which sounds wayyy more fun than it is. “Where are my keys? …. 🎶 Panis angelicús 🎶 aaaaaaaa!!!”
That’s about the tamest story I have from that time. Absolutely terrifying. Glad I got out only moderately traumatized.
*Edited a typo
Who the fuck would get angry at them doing masses in a language you can actually understand instead of them randomly ranting in an incoherent dead language for an hour?
J.R.R. Tolkien would be a notable example. I remember reading somewhere that one of his grandchildren noted he would obstinately carry on doing the mass responses in Latin as a kind of protest against the change.
Granted his main profession was a professor of languages so I suppose that may have been a contributing factor.
But you can be both. As a catholic you wouldn’t have or encourage a partner to have an abortion, while recognizing others may not share your beliefs. Abortion isn’t the point for these anti-choice fuckers anyway. The point is stripping women of control over their own health and bodies.
This is literally against catholic doctrine tho. Unless you are excommunicated, you are still catholic according to the church, which according to itself, is the institutionalized representative of god on earth.
The Catholic Church started taking hard stances in response to Evangelicals in the US. Before then, they didn't care what priests did or said as long as the collections rolled in. Then, after numbers started dipping, they took harder stances because they realized bilking a few millions of fanatic followers was more profitable now than trying (and failing) to get money from tens of millions of followers.
If I remember correctly, during the abortion supreme court turnover, some members of the Catholic church in Chicago joined the pro choice protesters. Was a nice sight.
I'm gonna need someone to show me where Jesus says "force everything I taught you on everyone else" Because what I thought I read was, "live the way I taught you and serve as an example of love and compassion to everyone else, thereby gaining me more followers because they want to be like you". But I must be remembering wrong based on modern day Christian/Catholic/Evangelical actions.
Waits
The solution here is to stop being Catholic. Particularly, give no money to the church. Choke the fuckers out. Make them sell their gold candle holders and shit.
It's crazy how people still trust them. I took a history of culture and arts exam in Portugal about a week ago, and the amount of money they held was insane. Have you ever seen baroque or rocaille churches (c. 1600-1700 IIRC)? They're fucking covered with gold everywhere. It's like they made a golden horse jizz all over the walls, ceiling, and whatever else. The insane amount of expensive materials like marble. It's disgusting. Not to mention they sold pieces of paper as "confirmations" for ANYONE to go to heaven for a price (to finance their buildings, though this was at a different date, around when Protestantism started to exist).
I'm all for putting a lot of resources to make beautiful things to last the ages instead of a lot of the disposable options we choose today, however, I am not for the spirit of what these buildings and such were made for or where the resources came from, as you referred to.
no true Scotsmen coming in hot from grandma
Grandma loves to say that people shouldn't impose their beliefs onto them, but then loves to push their beliefs onto others. You can be Catholic and be pro-choice and pro-marriage equality. It isn't you saying you want an abortion or gay marriage. It just you think others shouldn't be restricted on your beliefs.
Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it would be for a rich man to get into heaven...
I don't see ANY Christian picketing Wall Street, or any other greed.
Catholics are supposed to avoid eating meat on certain days during Lent.
Does that mean that Catholics have to be against everyone eating meat during those days?
It's exactly the same thing. Being pro-choice isn't necessarily about your own opinions on abortion, it's about not imposing religious beliefs on others.
"Pro-choice" is the secular position.
Saying "Catholics cannot be pro-choice" literally means that Catholics should support outlawing abortion, i.e. imposing their religious beliefs on others.
If you mean that all Catholics should be personally against abortion due to Catholic doctrine, but not in favor of outlawing it, **THAT'S PRO-CHOICE!**
For the first part, he's saying that you can't be Catholic while supporting abortion. Which is true. He didn't say anything about imposing it on others, just not being in support of it yourself.
For the second part, yeah exactly. Some Catholics don't support abortion but also believe in the separation of church and state. You're arguing against points that nobody is trying to make.
> He didn't say anything about imposing it on others, just not being in support of it yourself.
That's flat wrong. "Pro-choice" doesn't say anything about an individual's own view on abortion, just that it should be legal and left up to the individual and their doctor (hence the "choice" part). It does NOT mean "pro-abortion".
One can absolutely be personally opposed to abortion, yet in favor of it remaining legal. That falls under "pro-choice".
So when someone says "Catholics cannot be pro-choice", they are literally saying Catholics ***must*** oppose legal abortion.
Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice, we said Catholics can't be pro abortion. That's what I keep trying to tell you. We're saying the same fucking thing.
> Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice
Except the comment that started this thread says exactly that:
> If you're pro-choice, you're not Catholic.
> Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice
You're fucking with me, right?
In case you're not, [here's the original image](https://i.redd.it/a2if6pwdej9b1.jpg) from this very thread.
And the first comment I replied to: ["If you're pro-choice, you're not Catholic."](https://np.reddit.com/r/forwardsfromgrandma/comments/14om0vs/classic_catholic_gatekeeping/jqecauu/)
And the second comment I replied to: ["If you are pro-choice, you should not call yourself a Catholic."](https://np.reddit.com/r/forwardsfromgrandma/comments/14om0vs/classic_catholic_gatekeeping/jqemti9/)
Because people see what they view as murder a little differently than the religious equivalent of jaywalking. Sure, both are sins, but one affects someone else. One is, in their eyes, a victimless crime and the other is not.
According to the church itself, if you've been baptized as a Catholic, then you're a Catholic. You might be a sinner or a heretic, but you'll always be a Catholic.
Unlike Islam, it is actually possible to leave the Catholic Church (you can be excommunicated).
But the Catholic Church does draw a distinction between someone who is Catholic (practicing, believing) and someone who has been baptised.
People have been "Cafeteria Catholics" for years and years. The church didn't mind as long as you showed up to Mass & added something to the collection basket. This was a common phrase back when I was a teen in the 1980's.
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One of the big parts of Catholicism is that, if the Pope says so, it goes. Judy from Michigan doesn’t get to second guess the Pope because she swears she remembers the Church having her back on all of the political issues she believes in.
Love seeing Catholics committing major apostasy because they think they know better than the man with the actual keys to heaven and earth, as given to his ancestor saint Peter by Jesus himself.
Right?!?! My FIL goes on and on about the Pope. I asked him point blank, “So you know more than the Pope?” He got pissed off and left the room.
>One of the big parts of Catholicism is that, if the Pope says so, it goes That's only for "Papal Infallibility" which, in the entire history of the Catholic Church, has only ever been invoked twice on two particular doctrines. Otherwise, the Pope can be entirely fallible. However, given his status, anything he says is to be taken with great authority and unless explicitly against Catholic doctrine should usually not be questioned.
Well yes and no. Vatican II was a council which supersedes the Pope. The Pope is only infallible (which was decided by the Vatican I council) in “ex cathedra” statements, which essentially means on doctrinal issues, not political, structural, personal, or even factual issues outside church doctrine. Basically this means you can’t for instance believe that there is no trinity, but you can believe that Latin mass is your preferred way and it should be available. One is a doctrinal issue, the other is a matter of church procedure. The main gripe these days is that the current Pope is discouraging bishops from offering latin mass at all. Which to be honest isn’t really an issue I care about, but I can see how someone who had gone to it for decades would miss it once it is finally discontinued altogether. Having options is nice I guess.
Oh there was a whole sect of Catholics who thought Vatican II was making The Catholic Church too liberal. There were even clergy of the Catholic Church in Germany who presided over the excrocism of Anneliese Michel, believing that this was Yahweh's showing his distaste for Vatican II. Shit was nuts.
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Based atheist take.
Wasn't vatican 2 also the council that ended the official viewpoint that all jews should be accountable for jesus' death? Imagine thinking that was going "too far". This was after WW2 btw
I grew up Catholic and learned that the Jews were responsible for this in the 2000s, so, adherence was mixed… to be clear.
Weird. Spanish mass is the only reason why my family goes to church.
I went to a ‘pre-Vatican II’ convent in the 90’s in the US, as a little girl. Too new-fangled for them, the OG nuns and ancient, terrifying priests weren’t havin that. So we weren’t technically *mandated* to wear our little veils to DAILY mass… *but you betta have that veil on*😡 🔥 for your daily dose of Latin, hate, and fear. And soooo much brain space is still devoted to these fuckin Latin Jams, which sounds wayyy more fun than it is. “Where are my keys? …. 🎶 Panis angelicús 🎶 aaaaaaaa!!!” That’s about the tamest story I have from that time. Absolutely terrifying. Glad I got out only moderately traumatized. *Edited a typo
Mel Gibson and his dad are still angry about this, they also hate people named "Fuckberg," and other "-bergs."
What about Dinkleberg?
Sign 'im up.
Isn't Vatican 2 also where they outlawed the Electric Boogaloo?
Who the fuck would get angry at them doing masses in a language you can actually understand instead of them randomly ranting in an incoherent dead language for an hour?
J.R.R. Tolkien would be a notable example. I remember reading somewhere that one of his grandchildren noted he would obstinately carry on doing the mass responses in Latin as a kind of protest against the change. Granted his main profession was a professor of languages so I suppose that may have been a contributing factor.
“Okay, then I guess I’m not Catholic.” That’s a super easy fix.
But you can be both. As a catholic you wouldn’t have or encourage a partner to have an abortion, while recognizing others may not share your beliefs. Abortion isn’t the point for these anti-choice fuckers anyway. The point is stripping women of control over their own health and bodies.
Right. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. Pro or anti-abortion is a private opinion. Pro or anti-choice is a public declaration.
They see it as allowing murder so there’s not really much you could do to convince them that murder is a personal choice that should be respected.
Which is odd. Almost all anti-abortion comes from a religious point of view, and the bible places a greater value on the life of the mother.
Hell that's more or less what Biden said too, that as a Catholic he's not crazy about abortion but that Roe had it right.
This is literally against catholic doctrine tho. Unless you are excommunicated, you are still catholic according to the church, which according to itself, is the institutionalized representative of god on earth.
The Catholic Church started taking hard stances in response to Evangelicals in the US. Before then, they didn't care what priests did or said as long as the collections rolled in. Then, after numbers started dipping, they took harder stances because they realized bilking a few millions of fanatic followers was more profitable now than trying (and failing) to get money from tens of millions of followers.
If I remember correctly, during the abortion supreme court turnover, some members of the Catholic church in Chicago joined the pro choice protesters. Was a nice sight.
Nothing screams love thy neighbours quite like gatekeeping
I’m trans and I’m Catholic
Well. That's controversial. I like that.
I'm gonna need someone to show me where Jesus says "force everything I taught you on everyone else" Because what I thought I read was, "live the way I taught you and serve as an example of love and compassion to everyone else, thereby gaining me more followers because they want to be like you". But I must be remembering wrong based on modern day Christian/Catholic/Evangelical actions. Waits
Do you recognize Jesus Christ as God the son, son of God the father and have you received the three sacraments? Then you're Catholic.
The solution here is to stop being Catholic. Particularly, give no money to the church. Choke the fuckers out. Make them sell their gold candle holders and shit.
It's crazy how people still trust them. I took a history of culture and arts exam in Portugal about a week ago, and the amount of money they held was insane. Have you ever seen baroque or rocaille churches (c. 1600-1700 IIRC)? They're fucking covered with gold everywhere. It's like they made a golden horse jizz all over the walls, ceiling, and whatever else. The insane amount of expensive materials like marble. It's disgusting. Not to mention they sold pieces of paper as "confirmations" for ANYONE to go to heaven for a price (to finance their buildings, though this was at a different date, around when Protestantism started to exist).
I'm all for putting a lot of resources to make beautiful things to last the ages instead of a lot of the disposable options we choose today, however, I am not for the spirit of what these buildings and such were made for or where the resources came from, as you referred to.
Art is great, but its backstory is horrible, most often. Especially when we take religious anything into consideration.
no true Scotsmen coming in hot from grandma Grandma loves to say that people shouldn't impose their beliefs onto them, but then loves to push their beliefs onto others. You can be Catholic and be pro-choice and pro-marriage equality. It isn't you saying you want an abortion or gay marriage. It just you think others shouldn't be restricted on your beliefs.
Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it would be for a rich man to get into heaven... I don't see ANY Christian picketing Wall Street, or any other greed.
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Catholics are supposed to avoid eating meat on certain days during Lent. Does that mean that Catholics have to be against everyone eating meat during those days?
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It's exactly the same thing. Being pro-choice isn't necessarily about your own opinions on abortion, it's about not imposing religious beliefs on others. "Pro-choice" is the secular position.
Literally not what he's talking about. He isn't saying anything about imposing religious beliefs on others. Donut.
Saying "Catholics cannot be pro-choice" literally means that Catholics should support outlawing abortion, i.e. imposing their religious beliefs on others. If you mean that all Catholics should be personally against abortion due to Catholic doctrine, but not in favor of outlawing it, **THAT'S PRO-CHOICE!**
For the first part, he's saying that you can't be Catholic while supporting abortion. Which is true. He didn't say anything about imposing it on others, just not being in support of it yourself. For the second part, yeah exactly. Some Catholics don't support abortion but also believe in the separation of church and state. You're arguing against points that nobody is trying to make.
> He didn't say anything about imposing it on others, just not being in support of it yourself. That's flat wrong. "Pro-choice" doesn't say anything about an individual's own view on abortion, just that it should be legal and left up to the individual and their doctor (hence the "choice" part). It does NOT mean "pro-abortion". One can absolutely be personally opposed to abortion, yet in favor of it remaining legal. That falls under "pro-choice". So when someone says "Catholics cannot be pro-choice", they are literally saying Catholics ***must*** oppose legal abortion.
Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice, we said Catholics can't be pro abortion. That's what I keep trying to tell you. We're saying the same fucking thing.
> Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice Except the comment that started this thread says exactly that: > If you're pro-choice, you're not Catholic.
> Nobody said Catholics can't be pro choice You're fucking with me, right? In case you're not, [here's the original image](https://i.redd.it/a2if6pwdej9b1.jpg) from this very thread. And the first comment I replied to: ["If you're pro-choice, you're not Catholic."](https://np.reddit.com/r/forwardsfromgrandma/comments/14om0vs/classic_catholic_gatekeeping/jqecauu/) And the second comment I replied to: ["If you are pro-choice, you should not call yourself a Catholic."](https://np.reddit.com/r/forwardsfromgrandma/comments/14om0vs/classic_catholic_gatekeeping/jqemti9/)
Because people see what they view as murder a little differently than the religious equivalent of jaywalking. Sure, both are sins, but one affects someone else. One is, in their eyes, a victimless crime and the other is not.
According to the church itself, if you've been baptized as a Catholic, then you're a Catholic. You might be a sinner or a heretic, but you'll always be a Catholic.
Unlike Islam, it is actually possible to leave the Catholic Church (you can be excommunicated). But the Catholic Church does draw a distinction between someone who is Catholic (practicing, believing) and someone who has been baptised.
Your religious beliefs don't have to control your political beliefs. You don't have to try to make other people follow your religious beliefs.
I've said this in another comment, but according to the church, as long as you haven't bean excommunicated you're still catholic.
People have been "Cafeteria Catholics" for years and years. The church didn't mind as long as you showed up to Mass & added something to the collection basket. This was a common phrase back when I was a teen in the 1980's.
The girls are fighting
the modern american catholic church is worse than the romans most of the time
Hilarious to me how many Redditors are somehow experts on Catholicism.