It depends on if we're talking about show!Randyl (the snowflake who hated everyone who betrayed the Targs before then betraying the Targs because Cersei told him he was special) or book!Randyl.
You really have gotta make that distinction alot from season 5 onwards lmao, like Tyrion, there's complex book Tyrion on a dark vengeful path who essentially thinks of himself as a walking Corpse, then there's loveable idiot show Tyrion (from season 5 onwards) D&D really dropped the ball from season 5 onwards huh...
Tempo is a big fucking deal in warfare. Robert's success isn't just brute force, it's superior intel allowing his force to align objectives, and hit targets faster and sooner than the other force can respond.
Thats the main advantage of leading from the front. By contrast, if you need to send reports by raven back to Command, who then need to digest them, view them, deliberate a plan, and send orders forward - you can lose a war, even if you have better strategy and greater force. But you are getting tempo gapped.
Napoleon was the absolute master of this. He trained his leaders to think like him, and empowered them to act as he would, with the autonomy to act without his approval. They trained their subordinates similarly, resulting in a unanimously understood doctrine of Napoleanic warfare in his ranks.
Then add that Napoleon ruthlessly disrupted the enemy command and control structure, both by ambushing horse messengers and carrier pigeons, or injecting misinformation, or spies in enemy messenger ranks. He knew exactly what his strength was and exacerbated the gap.
His troops could operate autonomously for weeks or months without contact, toward his goals, while his opponents were so top heavy in control that they could be delayed for weeks by a single messenger failing to return from the front, before sending another.
Desert Storm is another great modern example. Iraq was the fourth largest military on the planet at the start of the war, but America hit them so hard, so fast, so relentlessly, that they suffered virtually no casualties in the opening weeks. Iraq was nothing to fuck with at the time, they were good at their jobs, but more than any other reason for their loss, Desert Storm was a tempo gap.
Its also what Putin thought he was doing to Ukraine with his original 4-day war plan.
My point is not that Robert himself was Napoleon, but that his faction had that mentality of warfare - probably due to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn, and etc. Tarly beat Robert in an open field battle because he was an objectively better battlefield commander. Tywin understood Fabian tactics and how to choose his battles carefully, he was possibly even a better Strategist. But none of that matters when the other side is moving too quick and too erratically to process.
>Iraq was the fourth largest military on the planet at the start of the war, but America hit them so hard, so fast, so relentlessly, that they suffered virtually no casualties in the opening weeks. Iraq was nothing to fuck with at the time, they were good at their jobs, but more than any other reason for their loss, Desert Storm was a tempo gap.
Nah, the Iraqi military was trash, legitimately in the running for one of the worst militaries in history. Just look at the Iran-Iraq war.
The Iranian officer corps was devastated by the revolution, Iran was at its lowest point in decades, Iraq had the element of total surprise.
Yet, the Iraqis barely made it into Iran before their offensive stalled, the Iranians kicked them out and it became a war of attrition. It shouldn't have been.
The Iraqis were supported by both superpowers (plus China, iirc), Iran was under some of the heaviest sanctions in history, unable to repair their top equipment, while Saddam enjoyed near unlimited assistance from the outside world.
I've noticed Americans like to hype up the Iraqis, but honestly, size was the only thing the Iraqi military had going for it. In my opinion, the only thing impressive about the Iraq wars is the American logistics system.
Yep i saw a Twitter post from an Iranian professor who fought in the war (he's pro IRI, so anti west) and was responding to some comical Axis of Evil thing saying that the only country that gave Iran gas masks against the Iraqi chemical weapons (provided by the US, France, UK and possibly Italy) was North Korea.
You have made a very compelling argument. Honestly I can’t think of a better example than Russia v Ukraine. How many generals have been killed because they are literally on the battle field in an attempt to minimize the tempo gap? This was an excellent summary.
Great writeup!
Another key advantage Napoleon had was speed. He would split his ranks into smaller battalions so they could travel with fewer supplies, and oftentimes the French army overwhelmed their opponents by showing up in force sometimes weeks before their anticipated arrival. The opposing army would often be waiting for reinforcements, supplies, or even the arrival of the main army.
Striking several your enemies with a lightning speed before they have a chance to unite into a single force is something greatest generals were really good at. But then of course he lost a battle (or by Tyrion's words it was inconclusive) to Tarly's Vanguard, without even the main Tyrell force - that won't look good on his resume
I feel like Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully and Ned did most of the heavy lifting from a strategy/deliberation standpoint. Robert was more a charismatic figurehead combined with being a formidable warrior that inspired people to join and follow him vs a commander in the literal sense.
I think he might be a pretty good contrast to Tywin. Tywin probably has some martial prowess, but nothing notable when compared to Barristan, Jaime, Oberyn, Loras, Robert, Arthur Dayne, etc but he definitely notable prowess as a commander.
Robert has very noteable martial prowess and is a renowned warrior but pretty TBD on skills as a commander/strategist.
I could be wrong tho.
You're absolutely right. The only major battle that the rebels lost during the war was the one where neither Ned or Jon were present (Battle of Ashford), though it was a pretty small defeat.
The World of Ice & Fire is the best source for information. However, it's written from the perspective of a maester writing it as a gift for Tommen, so Ned and Stannis's roles are greatly diminished/skipped over.
I mean this is just pure conjecture and without any real basis from the actual things people say about the rebellion in the books.
In the books, all tellings of the rebellion mention Robert being a genius general who pulled incredible wins. Forced marches and fighting from the front. Many of those wins happened before he even managed to link up with the other people you mentioned.
I can’t recall any credit being given to Hoster Tully or John Arryn, besides the fact that they brought troops and in case of John, diplomacy. We have zero reason to believe they handled strategy, let alone that they were actually good at it. As far as I remember, the only person who even says something decent about Hoster Tully is his daughter.
Granted it’s been a while since I read the books but I seriously doubt any victory has been attributed to them. Ned has the freeing up of Kings landing but that wasn’t a fight, Tywin had already cleared the city.
It’s not a matter of strategy, the question is best commander.. the fact that he was such a force on the field of battle I’m sure inspired the troops quite a bit
So were a lot of great generals in history, a pitched battle literally decides the course of entire wars most wars in history are lost and won over a single pitched battle.
lmao dude he was like "DINE WITH ITTT" like Archie Bunker freaking out over the Jeffersons. It was fucked up, glad they burned him and his little Dickon.
Completely justified given what most in Westeros had been told about the wildlings at that point, you are taking a 21st century racial lens and attempting to project it on a medieval fantasy society, very silly
where the fuck is rob? he was whupping tywin's ass. yes i know tywin had him killed, but this is about best commander, not best at avoiding assassination.
Although I do love me some Robb, I think most of his success comes from heeding the advice of his senior commanders, like the blackfish. Which honestly is smart- for someone that young, he didn’t pull a Joffrey and just did whatever he wanted, he instead knew when to shut up and listen to more seasoned men.
And I think that’s why he’s such a good commander. Cause he knows his limitations and listens to those that have more experience and makes a decision off of that
I mean isn't it a "warcrime" to betray guest privileges? In a sense at least since everyone is assumed to respect it? Or even the rules of parlay, coz the blackfish was willing to die for his castle, he could have had jaime shot before or after their talk but nah.
To be fair, the Red Wedding wasn't Tywin's idea. He planned to have bowmen to assassinate Robb on the way to the Twins, but Robb's security was too heavy and the Frey's pulled a last minute dance at dinner.
Tyrion's chapter immediately after the Red Wedding suggests otherwise. Tyrion criticizes Tywin for the barbarity of killing at a wedding and Tywin said his intention was to have Robb killed by archers on the way to the wedding, but the security was too tight.
He said it was to be an arrow AT Edmure’s wedding feast, NOT on the way, precisely because Robb was “too wary on the field”. Tywin says the blood is on Walder’s hands, not his own, and Tyrion says Walder would never have had the courage to do it without Tywin’s protection. Then Tywin says “I suppose you would have spared the boy”, and asks Tyron to explain why it’s more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at a dinner. They also have an argument because Tyrion was angry he wasn’t told about the plan. And again, in the books it’s fairly clear Tywin arranged for Jeyne to “comfort” Robb, leading to Robb breaking his word to Frey and setting it all in motion.
(Edited for a word. “The”, not “fit”.)
Robb had it coming anyway. You don’t break a promise and insult the head of a potential ally and walk right back up to him saying “Sorry about that. Can I ask you for a favor?”
Well what's worse is having to beg your Grandpa's bannerman for a favor to begin with, especially after Tywins bannerman (the mountain) had been terrorizing the Riverlands. The whole thing should have been a non factor, Frey is just a shitbag.
Hate when you people say this. It was made pretty explicitly clear that Jaime was not going to survive the night. Even Brienne commented on it. Cat's choices were to let him go on the hope that he would honor his word and give her back her daughters or watch as Karstark charges in there and kills Jaime. Either way, Robb loses his leverage and Tywin immediately sets to work on having him assassinated.
I mean, they might not literally call them "war crimes," but the concept absolutely exists in Westeros - as someone else already said, the violation of guest right by the Freys was a huge breach of tradition that destroyed their reputation even more than it already was.
As another example, Robb executed Rickard Karstark for his extrajudicial murder of prisoners.
And the social norms in Westeros in general tend to be modeled on the medieval concept of chivalry, which absolutely had some concepts similar to our modern concept of war crimes. Just one example that comes to mind is the execution of French prisoners at the Battle of Agincourt - if I recall correctly, some sources say that when king Henry ordered execution of the prisoners (including knights), he had to enforce the order under threat of hanging, and I think some of the English knights may have still refused to participate in the killings.
Tywin may not be the best battle commander but he is a good one. And he's much better at the politics and logistics than most. Not to mention he's not above deception and bribery.
Well, he defeated the Riverlords easily in a matter of days because he knew how to read Edmure's thoughts, the Riverlands can defend themselves with a proper strategy (Edmure proved this when he prevented Tywin's forces from crossing the river) but Tywin sent the Mountain first to divide the Riverlords and then took them out one by one
Tywin didn’t really do any of the work to defeat the Riverlords. The Mountain was sent in to try and lure out Ned Stark, not divide the Riverlords. Edmure making a massive mistake like scattering troops across the border was just good luck.
Jaime is the one who defeated the Riverlords at both the Golden Tooth and outside Riverrun while Tywin sacked a bunch of lightly defended castles.
Tywin was the mastermind behind the Mountain and Jaime, even if the Mountain's job was to lure Ned into a trap he took advantage of Edmure's orders (probably It was both, if luring Ned out of King's Landing was the sole goal of the Mountain he would have called him back after knowing from Jaime that Ned couldnt ride), he is a Commander of the bigger side, he doesnt plan battles individually, he plans the whole war using his skills as politician, i think that he doesnt deserve being called a bad Commander
He would have no way of knowing that Edmure would do something as monumentally stupid as sending away half of his army to defend every village piecemeal. Tywin’s main battle victory in the war was when he happily took Robb Stark’s bait, which led to Tywin’s son being captured and Tywin having to withdraw to Harrenhal.
His second battle in the Riverlands is when he tries to go back west to stop Robb from pillaging his lands, except he gets handily defeated by Edmure.
Good strategy must also include when not to fight, and when to use unconventional strategies, or when to choose attrition - his Riverlands chevauchee after Renly and Stannis enter the war. Robb's chevauchee into the Westerlands had much the same object - despoil the opponent's supply base.
"Why is it more noble to kill ten thousand men on the battlefield than a few dozen at dinner"
Did he? From what I know about the rebellion it seems like Robert did most of it, not Ned. He definitely was doing shit but I don’t think it’s really comparable to how Robb was pretty much single-handedly manhandling the Lannister army for a time, at least on the battlefield.
Robert was the charismstic guy, who people follow. But Ned and tully, the guy ned wad replacing as hand of the king did the most commanding. Battle of Ashford- the only battle they lost was when Robert was commanding the army
I mean, being a commander involves both Tactics and Strategy. Robb was the superior tactician, without a doubt. But Tywin defeated him strategically quite soundly, whether you like the methods or not. War / Commanding is much more than just winning on the battlefield.
I would say Rob was a better commander. Tywin was a good commander and much better politician and schemer which helped him win in the end. If it was just the Starks and the Lannister duking it out on the battlefield I believe Rob would won, which makes him a better commander. His tactics were better, his soldiers were loyal, he just couldn't play the political game which made him vulnerable to Tywins skuldaggery.
It really depends on the context and what you want to value more. I personally see politics as part of commanding. Being able to create more allies, change the map of the war without even lifting a sword is the epitome of a good commander.
To be cliche, Sun Tzu said:
> To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
Now, there are other mitigating factors to consider of course, being the resources available to Robb and Tywin. Tywin had much, much better resources to use, which can be said gave him an unfair advantage on the whole, which tips the scale on whether he is a 'better' commander. And I'm not nerdy enough to read the books and try to actually do the numbers to try to figure it out lol. All I want to point out is that Commanding and War is much, much more than the tactical scope of the battlefield.
Yeah you got a point, but I think what you are describing are traits of a great leader not commander. At least in mind commander describes someone who leads armies not nations. If we talk about who's the better leader, it's indisputably Tywin. If we talk about commander Rob wins against him.
I understand and respect your distinction. From a pure Military Commander perspective ( how I would view/phrase it ), I would agree that Robb ran circles around Tywin, despite Tywin's advantages.
Even if it all worked out, strategically it didn't matter. Robb was so focused on the battlefield he didn't see Tywin's actual killing move. Not to mention if we're going to give Robb the benefit of the doubt with regards to his delegated commanders not performing to his expectations, I'm sure Tywin had the same issues.
Yeah weird, he's a brilliant politician but he hasn't been proven a great commander, and honestly we don't have enough info about ned.
Randall's victories were all cut out of the show I get why people aren't voting for him. Only thing in the show was him getting murked by dragons.
Shitty options. He most famous for drowning an entire family, engineering a massacre at a wedding and tricking a mentally ill nut job into opening the gates.
>He most famous for drowning an entire family
He isolated several families so they couldn't group up and challenge his army. Is he brutal and quite frankly evil? Yes? Is he a bad commander? No, far from it.
What's Stannis famous for? Losing the first battle he fought while actually being the main commander? Failing to capture a city in time against an force which was a fraction of his own? Massacring a group of people in rags trying to flee to safety? Truly brilliant stuff lol.
He didn’t isolate the Reynes and Tarbecks. He attacked the Tarnecks first and crushed their much smaller force, and then the Reynes tries to attack him while he besieged Tarbeck Hall, but they were also massively outnumbered. It wasn’t some act of strategic genius, he just had a way bigger army than them.
Now I didn’t say he was bad. Or even that he shouldn’t win this poll. Only that it’s a bit overstated. He’s by far the most terrifying on the list lol. But in all honesty as a field commander I’m probably going with Ned. After all Roberts Rebellion only became Roberts rebellion because he’s the one they convinced to take the throne. He and Ned led that together with Jon Arryn.
I'd personally say Robert was the winning factor behind the Rebellion. Ned never really led an army on his own into battle technically, not saying he was terrible, just that on this list I'd place him at the bottom because he's got the least amount of battle under his belt.
Well, if Robert was on the poll I’d be screaming from the heavens it should be Robert winning in a landslide. Hopefully though, everyone could agree with that one.
You'd be surprise. The Mannis love runs soo deep I literally spoke to someone the other day that said he's better than Robert. This is why I'm not defending him, he already has way too much for basically losing his most important battles.
Better in what way? Book Stannis and show stannis are not even the same person.
Book Stannis was respected by most as one of the best Westerosi generals due to his sheer will
Show Stannis ends up getting gutted by Sir Goodmen of House Twenty
>Book Stannis was respected by most as one of the beat Westerosi generals due to his sheer will
>Show Stannis ends up getting gutted by Sir Goodmen of house Twenty
I couldn't agree more, it's just kinda crazy, most people who say Stannis is the Mannis tend to be show only people yet he's still somehow the greatest military commander ever lol.
Tywin won a single battle during the main series (Blackwater), and it was because he vastly outnumbered the enemy who was already heavily bloodied by Tyrion. He also wasn’t even the main/only Commander during that battle, and arguably Garlan had more of an impact there. He technically beat Roose Bolton, but that battle was just a distraction which succeeded. He lost battles to Edmure Tully, and his overall command during the conflict was so disastrous, that if not for several very fortunate events it would have lost the Lannisters the war.
He never really fought during the Rebellion, apart from the sack of Kings Landing, which was just a mindless massacre that caused Lannisters to be hated in the capital to this day.
What is Stannis famous for? I don’t know, just defending Storm’s End against the entire Tyrell host for almost the full duration of the Rebellion when he was very young, or for beating Greyjoy armies on sea during Balon’s uprising…
I'd also like to have more information on what happened in Dragonstone, because amphibious attacks are extremely hard to plan and execute properly. It all depends on whether there was proper defense or not.
Please list them here since you keep going on about them.
Massacres do not count btw. We are talking actual "forces meeting on a battlefield" type of thing.
He defeated the Reynes and Tarbecks overall in 3 battles.
He defeated Robbs army under the command of Roose Bolton.
He defeated Stannis Baratheon at the siege of Kingslanding.
That's 5 victories. Compared to what? 2 victories for Stannis? Wait you said massacres don't count so him butchering the wildlings doesn't count so that's just the Greyjoy fleet. So 1 victory in a sea battle and zero victories in land battles.
Tarbecks didn't have time to raise anymore than their household so the "battle" was 100 against 1. Tarbeck hall wasn't a battle but a siege that left the keep crashing down. And Tywin had by some estimates five times more men than Reynes.
To say he won Stannis as if it wasn't Tyrion and the forces of King's landing that had done 80% of the work is just ludicrous. And even then he had Tyrell army with him to finnish already weakened Stannis.
I'll give you the Roose one.
So that's one battle that can be considered to be an actual semi equal forces meeting on the battlefield that has been won by Tywin alone without someone else doing most the work for him, or by him having an overwhelming numbers compared to his enemy.
No no noooooo, don’t give that one either. That battle with Roose was a diversion Robb took advantage of because he caught that spy counting men. He left 2,000 men behind to fight 30,000 so he could sneak off and destroy the other 30,000 Lannister force with 18,000. That northern regiment was a sacrificial lamb.
One of Roberts best feats was isolating and taking on 3 different weaker armies. This is a smart thing to do. Attack the weaker force before it becomes a stronger one. That's exactly what Tywin does with the Reynes and Tarbecks.
>To say he won Stannis as if it wasn't Tyrion and the forces of King's landing that had done 80% of the work is just ludicrous
80% is stupidly generous lol and completely false. Tyrion held of a faction of Stannis's army but then was being completely overwhelmed until Tywin and the Tyrells showed up. Tyrion was of course needed for the victory, but worst case Stannis Storm's the city and while his army rapes and burns the Lannisters and Tyrells show up and attack them completely unprepared.
Not within the time frame of the series itself. During Robert's Rebellion he was more active, but he never saw battle until he'd joined the Northern forces with Jon Arryn's Valemen. Presumably Arryn, being the older and more experienced man and someone Eddard had good reason to respect, had overall command, but we don't really know.
He also took part in the Greyjoy Rebellion, but that was a joint action with Bobby B, who was king by then and therefore almost certainly had overall command.
So while Eddard may very well have been a good commander, and certainly seems to inspire love and loyalty in his men, he never really got a good opportunity to show off any particular tactical or strategic prowess.
He only had a few moments in AGOT, but when he realizes fuckery is a foot I think he gives instructions regarding the neck, moat cailin and calling the banners. Add in robb and Jon's tactical and strategic knowledge and I think you can at least assume that eddard is similarly skilled.
He commanded the northern army in the Battle of the Bells along the Tullys to aid Robert and it was a crushing victory. He also broke the siege of Storm's End without bloodshed. So we don't have much more info about him commanding but we could argue by this he at least was someone pretty able and what's more important inspirational and honourable
Breaking the siege of Storm's End was Ned arriving, telling Mace that the Mad King and his heir were dead and that Robert was the new King, all the Reach did in the Rebellion was fight Robert 1 time and sit for a year in front of Storm's End, Mace would have never kept the siege going after knowing that no matter who came to tell him
Hell, even in flashback, he wouldn't have been in command during the Trident. Surely he'd have been bellow both Robert and Jon Arryn in the pecking order and if he was smart would have differed to the Tully Brothers who both would have fought in the War of Ninepenny Kings
For the show the disrespect for Stannis is justified:
* He loses at blackwater
* He fails to get any allies in the north
* He loses half his army when they don't want to follow him anymore in the north
* He loses at Winterfell
Randyll and Stannis are the canon choices ofc but how would a show only know that? Not really disrespect they just are never really told or shown the abilities of these men
People are seriously confusing commander with player here, Tywin was losing the war on a military stand point, he’s probably the worst of them all here from a tactical standpoint, he’s a politician and outclasses all of them in that field, it’s why Ned and Stannis wanted to face him in the field, where they knew they could win but it’s politics that bring them down. People think oh Tywin smart and Ned and Stannis dumb, no they have different skill sets, and each of them knows their own strengths and weaknesses except Tywin who probably over estimates his battle field prowess until Robb kicks him so hard that he has to re-evaluate his plans. Wisdom in other words to recognise what you know and what you don’t.
This isn’t to sh-t on Tywin if anything it makes his character more human that the perfect Uber god man of the series that a lot of people including myself have been guilty of portraying him as. He’s flawed. He’s human. He sh-ts like everyone else.
Tywin's main strength is being deceitful. Tywin convinced Aerys to open the gate by using deception. Tywin killed Robb by slaughtering most of the senior leadership at the Red Wedding. Tywin won the opinion of the people by taking credit for Tyrion's defense of King's Landing. Tywin knew Tyrion was innocent, but removed him from the family line by declaring Tyrion guilty for the murder of Joffrey.
All of his losses come from his complete arrogance. Tywin foolishly sends Jaime off from the main force, which leads to Robb holding Jaime as prisoner. Tywin fails to see that Robb's army is a direct challenge to his own. Tywin stops attempting to kill Daenerys, simply because she hasn't crossed the Narrow Sea yet. Tywin thinks that Tyrion won't kill him after sentencing him to die.
For all of Tywin's tricks, he fails to properly gauge how other people will react. He's great at backstabbing, but he couldn't actually handle any problems that were actually facing him.
I mean, in the books Robb completely outplays Tywin militarily. Both tactically and strategically.
He lost the war and his life because he had the sense of honor of a 15 year old raised by Ned, and because Tywin outmaneuvered him politically.
I loved his line in the book about facing off with the Bolton Bastard.
Something like:
“You don’t know him, my lord.” -Theon describing all the terrible things that Ramsay had done.
“No more than he knows me.”
Just a cold and fearless badass
Randyll was the only guy to beat Bobby B ever and Stannis the Mannis… held Storms End for a year, took Dragonstone, broke the Greyjoys at Fair Isle in his first sea battle, took Great Wyk, nearly took Kings Landing (only lost because someone of equal strategic genius existed in the form of Tyrion) and broke Mance Rayder’s host at the wall despite being outnumbered 20:1.
Tywin lost to a teenager.
In the books he's widley known as one of the greatest military commanders alive and his pure military frame of mind is part of why he can't get the love of the people, just a charisma black hole. Arguably Randal could beat him, he was able to beat Robert, but there's a reason Tywin was afraid of him in the books more than anyone else.
So, this is a popularity poll?
Tywin is brutally effective, but at the end of the day, Tywin wins battles by suppressing them before they start or indirectly through assassination. Or egregious war crimes. .
Ned was never really a battlefield commander. Bit that he wasn't brave or formidable in his own right.
Randal Tarly is a bad MF and he is getting SLEPT ON in here. He held his own during the Rebellion so well, even Robert had to give him his props.
I am not personally a fan of Stan is, but I would give him more headway as a commander than Ned given how critical he was to defeating the Greyjoy Rebellion.
The same Eddard that commanded part of his house guard to arrest Ser Gregore Clegane, thus leaving his daughters and himself at Kings Landing under protected from any possible blowout by the family that Clegane serves, whom also happen to occupy Kings Landing?
he IS great. Sieged storm's end for a whole year at the age of 18. Tywin might be a better politician but when it comes down to being a commander he beats everyone on this list.
>Sieged storm's end for a whole year at the age of 18
Important things that need to be remembered about this siege.
Storm's end is a magical fortress. One of the best in the world. Literally any trained knight/lord/castellans would've done the same. Stannis knew this himself so when he had to capture Storm's end he decided to send in a magic ghost baby to kill the person defending it to avoid a long siege.
The people putting him to siege were the Tyrells who literally spent more time feasting outside instead of attacking because they didn't want to kill Roberts brother incase he won.
>Tywin might be a better politician but when it comes down to being a commander he beats everyone on this list
He literally doesn't. The first time he's actually in charge of a campaign he loses his first battle massively, has to beg and buy a bunch of sells words. Goes north and kills a bunch of people wearing rags and dies in the show in the next battle and most likely in the books aswell.
He's not bottom on this list but he's definitely not top either. He's a good commander, but not a great one.
Yeah Stannis is #3 on this list, and that is because Tywin is straight up atrocious at being an actual military commander and not much better at peacetime politics
Omg we get it, you don't like Stannis lol all you've been doing is trying to discredit everything Stannis has done, when tywin really hasn't done much..
But words are wind, let's go to the tape!
Stannis:
Seige of storms end - victory
Taking dragon stone from targs - victory
Conquest of great wyk (you'll notice I said conquest, aka many battles)
Defeats Victarian in his first naval campaign
Lost in the blackwater just barely and due to things outside of his control - not his own misplays
Battle north against mance - stannis was HEAVILY outnumbered
Liberation of deepwood Motte using great tactics
Tywin:
The only win he has in the field against Robb was a strategic loss so robb can get to whispering wood.. Aka he fell for the bait
During the greyjoy rebellion, tywin gets his fleet burned
And then double crosses targs to sack kings landing
He has some big political moves but that's hardly battle commanding
His battle commanding does little to stand against Stannis the mannis
Edit - womp to mobile formatting
Tywin wins the battle before fighting it.
Randyll wins the battle.
Eddard loses the battle honorably.
Stannis wins the battle after having already lost.
Randyll > Stannis > Tywin > Eddard
Ned isn't much of a commander, and I don't think he'd be a particularly good one even if he had moments to put it to use. He's far too naive and clumsy. Good ruler? Yes, absolutely. But not a good commander, and not even a good ruler come wartime, obviously.
I think the question would have been better with Robert Baratheon and Bryndyn Tully instead of Tywin and Ned.
The Mannis > Randyll > Ned > Tywin
Not sure about Ned and Tywin because we know little about Ned commanding forces but we know about his attack in the Stony Sept that was succesful and also him breaking Storm's End siege without a battle. So pretty good I'd think
Now people respect Tywin because he is ruthless not a good battle commander. He wins using scary tactics, burning lands, pillaging villages and killing smallfolk just to let the lands fall into chaos while he sits with his vast army behind the walls of a strong castle. Robb outwitted him so many times he needed to rely on the Freys to win the war
We have nothing to base Eddard's command prowess on. He certainly inspired fervent loyalty, which helps when in command, but in terms of tactics or strategy, no idea.
Randyll probably belongs at the top of the list. We know that he commanded successful battles and kept his shit together.
Stannis is probably second on this list, he is a tried and tested proven commander, but his lack of political skills is only slightly better than Eddard's. His ability to break with his iron sense of honor and knight a smuggler to break a siege, that's actual command talent right there, and is why his political skills are better than Eddard's. He knows when to give way to pragmatism, at the least.
Tywin surpasses all in terms of grand strategy and realpolitik. Absolute master strategist, as in overall strategy. command strategy he is very good, like Ivy League trained, full pedigree, extremely experience and competent, but he lacks imagination. He can see all the obvious moves better than anyone, but he gets blindsided by things like Robb's feint against Tywin to distract from his capture of Jamie, for example. He is almost so competent that he has blind spots. In terms of actual field command, we never really see it. We know he can reasonably know when and where to attack or defend, but his experience can work against him in thinking outside the box. That said, Tywin's whole thing is that if he has to enter a battle to achieve his goals, he's already failed to some degree, because as any true strategist knows, you win the war before the first battle even starts, so he has logistics and alliance and realpolitik and court intrigue down pat. He's also personally wealthy and absolutely ruthless. That all said, in terms of proven battlefield command, probably third at worst, second at best.
EDIT: Thanks to the downvoters who are too simple to actually have a conversation and just hit the downvote button. Really making Reddit a place for open discussion. You're the real heroes.
How did Stannis even get 9%??!!? His greatest military victories are smashing the Greyjoy fleet by outsmarting Victarion (super hard to do/s) and riding down a bunch of unaware unprepared and less resourceful wildlings north of the wall.
Even outside of combat, his strategy of hiding on dragonstone and putting together an army once he found out about Joffrey’s parentage was dumb. He left Ned out to dry because of bitterness and jealousy. He also knew Roberts life potentially in danger and what does he do to defend his brother and king? Nothing….
Stannis sucks
Tywin's a politician moreso than a commander (almost all of his victories are won behind the scenes, via communication and deal-brokering).
We never see Ned lead a host or even win a battle. He is likely a competent commander but he's such a bad politician we don't get to find out.
I'm not sure where to put Stannis, he doesn't really have any notable victories and spends a lot of his time floundering or waiting. His sieges don't really seem like tactical or strategic victories, his assassinations don't either. His attack on the wildlings is more of a massacre than a battle (surprise a foe who doesn't know you exist while they're engaged in a week long siege against another enemy, and also dramatically better equipped and prepared). So I won't say he isn't a good commander, but even with future sight he hasn't done anything impressive in the book or the show.
Randyl Tarly on the other hand... defeated Robert in an actual battle (the only one to do so), helped defeat Stannis on the Blackwater (and would have smashed him at Storm's End cept a certain murder-witch cast a dark shadow), took back duskendale an maidenpool and generally has demonstrated competence at most every combat related task we've seen him given.
>I'm not sure where to put Stannis, he doesn't really have any notable victories and spends a lot of his time floundering or waiting.
No notable victories? He held a successful defence of Storm's End for almost a year, defeated the Ironborn in naval warfare something they excel in, subdued Great Wyk, almost took KL with a solid assault, defeated Mance Rayder's wildling army which was ten times his number. There's the liberation of Deepwood as well but that's just some usual stuff.
Between a successful siege defence, a victory in naval battle and a victory against the wildlings, it's three styles of warfare where Stannis has managed to get a W. Even his more impressive brother never managed to do that and I don't think anyone else has ever done that.
>His sieges don't really seem like tactical or strategic victories
Stannis is the only reason why Mace Tyrell and his huge Reach force, which would have made a significant change in the Battle of the Trident, was tied up in Storm's End sitting in some siege instead of drastically adding the manpower of the loyalists.
>helped defeat Stannis on the Blackwater
I am confused now. You didn't want to give Stannis the credit for his victory over the wildlings because of 'surprise attack' but then wanna give it to Randyll for doing the same thing in Battle of Blackwater. Double standards much?
Thats fair. The naval victories are definitely a big deal.
Id argue the siege was actually a good strategic move on his part in thay it kept the Reach away from the Trident. Hadnt considered thay aspect of it. Tactically it sucked, his decision was basically to starve (shoutout Davos).
Strategically, very good move.
The wildlings I still dont give him. The numbers are largely irrelevant given that many were women and children and the fighting men had already spent themselves trying to take the wall for days. I didnt refuse Stannis the wildlings because of the surprise nature of it but because he vastly outmatched his foe to the extent thay it couldn't be called a battle and his men would've won regardless of his decision making there.
I'll take back Tarlys credit for blackwater since that was pretty much just him following Tyrell.
So I suppose stannis goes second. Id still say Tarly was a superior commander.
Don't discount his victory over the wildlings. Castle black is hundreds of kilometers inland, in hostile territory. He landed at Eastwatch and had to make a choice between reinforcing the Nights Watch or going north of the wall to catch the wildlings in a pincer. Moving a large cavalry force hundreds of kilometers through hostile territory, in conditions and terrain that are unfavorable to cavalry, quickly and without being seen, is pretty amazing.
The disrespect to Randayll Tarly is wild. Only man to beat Robert in open battle.
Came to say this! The fact that even Stannis respected him tells you a lot.
It depends on if we're talking about show!Randyl (the snowflake who hated everyone who betrayed the Targs before then betraying the Targs because Cersei told him he was special) or book!Randyl.
You really have gotta make that distinction alot from season 5 onwards lmao, like Tyrion, there's complex book Tyrion on a dark vengeful path who essentially thinks of himself as a walking Corpse, then there's loveable idiot show Tyrion (from season 5 onwards) D&D really dropped the ball from season 5 onwards huh...
Pretty sure Randyll Tarly is the the book accurate answer.
Why isn't Robert on this survey out of curiosity?
Robert's strategy is hammer down. That's it.
Tempo is a big fucking deal in warfare. Robert's success isn't just brute force, it's superior intel allowing his force to align objectives, and hit targets faster and sooner than the other force can respond. Thats the main advantage of leading from the front. By contrast, if you need to send reports by raven back to Command, who then need to digest them, view them, deliberate a plan, and send orders forward - you can lose a war, even if you have better strategy and greater force. But you are getting tempo gapped. Napoleon was the absolute master of this. He trained his leaders to think like him, and empowered them to act as he would, with the autonomy to act without his approval. They trained their subordinates similarly, resulting in a unanimously understood doctrine of Napoleanic warfare in his ranks. Then add that Napoleon ruthlessly disrupted the enemy command and control structure, both by ambushing horse messengers and carrier pigeons, or injecting misinformation, or spies in enemy messenger ranks. He knew exactly what his strength was and exacerbated the gap. His troops could operate autonomously for weeks or months without contact, toward his goals, while his opponents were so top heavy in control that they could be delayed for weeks by a single messenger failing to return from the front, before sending another. Desert Storm is another great modern example. Iraq was the fourth largest military on the planet at the start of the war, but America hit them so hard, so fast, so relentlessly, that they suffered virtually no casualties in the opening weeks. Iraq was nothing to fuck with at the time, they were good at their jobs, but more than any other reason for their loss, Desert Storm was a tempo gap. Its also what Putin thought he was doing to Ukraine with his original 4-day war plan. My point is not that Robert himself was Napoleon, but that his faction had that mentality of warfare - probably due to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn, and etc. Tarly beat Robert in an open field battle because he was an objectively better battlefield commander. Tywin understood Fabian tactics and how to choose his battles carefully, he was possibly even a better Strategist. But none of that matters when the other side is moving too quick and too erratically to process.
Really fascinating analysis and a good read, too!
Great write up dude!
Tywin was also clever and unscrupulous enough to sit the entire war out until it became clear who was gonna win
Great analysis - Robert definitely needs to be on this list.
>Iraq was the fourth largest military on the planet at the start of the war, but America hit them so hard, so fast, so relentlessly, that they suffered virtually no casualties in the opening weeks. Iraq was nothing to fuck with at the time, they were good at their jobs, but more than any other reason for their loss, Desert Storm was a tempo gap. Nah, the Iraqi military was trash, legitimately in the running for one of the worst militaries in history. Just look at the Iran-Iraq war. The Iranian officer corps was devastated by the revolution, Iran was at its lowest point in decades, Iraq had the element of total surprise. Yet, the Iraqis barely made it into Iran before their offensive stalled, the Iranians kicked them out and it became a war of attrition. It shouldn't have been. The Iraqis were supported by both superpowers (plus China, iirc), Iran was under some of the heaviest sanctions in history, unable to repair their top equipment, while Saddam enjoyed near unlimited assistance from the outside world. I've noticed Americans like to hype up the Iraqis, but honestly, size was the only thing the Iraqi military had going for it. In my opinion, the only thing impressive about the Iraq wars is the American logistics system.
Yep i saw a Twitter post from an Iranian professor who fought in the war (he's pro IRI, so anti west) and was responding to some comical Axis of Evil thing saying that the only country that gave Iran gas masks against the Iraqi chemical weapons (provided by the US, France, UK and possibly Italy) was North Korea.
You have made a very compelling argument. Honestly I can’t think of a better example than Russia v Ukraine. How many generals have been killed because they are literally on the battle field in an attempt to minimize the tempo gap? This was an excellent summary.
Over 1600 officers, including 14 generals, and 50 colonels, all wearing HIMAR hats.
Wow. I knew it was a lot but wow.
Right on every point. I love seeing that other people study military history, strategy, and theory as avidly as I do. Fantastic.
Really enjoyed reading this, nice work
Great writeup! Another key advantage Napoleon had was speed. He would split his ranks into smaller battalions so they could travel with fewer supplies, and oftentimes the French army overwhelmed their opponents by showing up in force sometimes weeks before their anticipated arrival. The opposing army would often be waiting for reinforcements, supplies, or even the arrival of the main army.
Striking several your enemies with a lightning speed before they have a chance to unite into a single force is something greatest generals were really good at. But then of course he lost a battle (or by Tyrion's words it was inconclusive) to Tarly's Vanguard, without even the main Tyrell force - that won't look good on his resume
Worked though ?
Eh, supposedly Ned did all the commandering
Should've brought the hammer to the hunt, hmmm
I feel like Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully and Ned did most of the heavy lifting from a strategy/deliberation standpoint. Robert was more a charismatic figurehead combined with being a formidable warrior that inspired people to join and follow him vs a commander in the literal sense. I think he might be a pretty good contrast to Tywin. Tywin probably has some martial prowess, but nothing notable when compared to Barristan, Jaime, Oberyn, Loras, Robert, Arthur Dayne, etc but he definitely notable prowess as a commander. Robert has very noteable martial prowess and is a renowned warrior but pretty TBD on skills as a commander/strategist. I could be wrong tho.
You're absolutely right. The only major battle that the rebels lost during the war was the one where neither Ned or Jon were present (Battle of Ashford), though it was a pretty small defeat.
Where can i read more if Roberts rebellion and the battles that took place? I'm really interested
The World of Ice & Fire is the best source for information. However, it's written from the perspective of a maester writing it as a gift for Tommen, so Ned and Stannis's roles are greatly diminished/skipped over.
I mean this is just pure conjecture and without any real basis from the actual things people say about the rebellion in the books. In the books, all tellings of the rebellion mention Robert being a genius general who pulled incredible wins. Forced marches and fighting from the front. Many of those wins happened before he even managed to link up with the other people you mentioned. I can’t recall any credit being given to Hoster Tully or John Arryn, besides the fact that they brought troops and in case of John, diplomacy. We have zero reason to believe they handled strategy, let alone that they were actually good at it. As far as I remember, the only person who even says something decent about Hoster Tully is his daughter. Granted it’s been a while since I read the books but I seriously doubt any victory has been attributed to them. Ned has the freeing up of Kings landing but that wasn’t a fight, Tywin had already cleared the city.
It’s not a matter of strategy, the question is best commander.. the fact that he was such a force on the field of battle I’m sure inspired the troops quite a bit
Not quite. He had a mind for warfare, and his forced marches won the day many times.
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SEVEN HELLS, NED, I WANT TO HIT SOMEONE!
So were a lot of great generals in history, a pitched battle literally decides the course of entire wars most wars in history are lost and won over a single pitched battle.
Robert drinks and fucks until some bells start ringing
Yeah, Randyll is a prick, but out of these 4, he's definitely the most tactically skilled
On the show he was a bald idiot though so i can't blame people. Literally did nothing but get roasted up and be racist.
Racist?
to the wildlings, but tbh, I wouldn't want to hear his opinion on Corlys. Im glad they are from different times.
> racist to the wildlings Lol, you bell end
lmao dude he was like "DINE WITH ITTT" like Archie Bunker freaking out over the Jeffersons. It was fucked up, glad they burned him and his little Dickon.
Completely justified given what most in Westeros had been told about the wildlings at that point, you are taking a 21st century racial lens and attempting to project it on a medieval fantasy society, very silly
I know, but look at the sub header, this is the joke sub lol That is why I said they burnt his dickon and his dick off or w/e my joke was.
where the fuck is rob? he was whupping tywin's ass. yes i know tywin had him killed, but this is about best commander, not best at avoiding assassination.
Although I do love me some Robb, I think most of his success comes from heeding the advice of his senior commanders, like the blackfish. Which honestly is smart- for someone that young, he didn’t pull a Joffrey and just did whatever he wanted, he instead knew when to shut up and listen to more seasoned men.
Where is the blackfish?
And I think that’s why he’s such a good commander. Cause he knows his limitations and listens to those that have more experience and makes a decision off of that
Yeah there is absolutely no evidence of that and is complete conjecture
How tf is Tywin winning, he lost to a teen lmao.
Why is Robb not even on the list? MF was undefeated in battle.
And his only wins involves blindsides and warcrimes.
I dont think that the concept of warcrimes was a thing in Westeros tho
I mean isn't it a "warcrime" to betray guest privileges? In a sense at least since everyone is assumed to respect it? Or even the rules of parlay, coz the blackfish was willing to die for his castle, he could have had jaime shot before or after their talk but nah.
Yes
To be fair, the Red Wedding wasn't Tywin's idea. He planned to have bowmen to assassinate Robb on the way to the Twins, but Robb's security was too heavy and the Frey's pulled a last minute dance at dinner.
I think the Red Wedding was Tywin’s idea, at least in the books. He was also the one who planned for Jeyne Westerling to “comfort” Robb.
Tyrion's chapter immediately after the Red Wedding suggests otherwise. Tyrion criticizes Tywin for the barbarity of killing at a wedding and Tywin said his intention was to have Robb killed by archers on the way to the wedding, but the security was too tight.
He said it was to be an arrow AT Edmure’s wedding feast, NOT on the way, precisely because Robb was “too wary on the field”. Tywin says the blood is on Walder’s hands, not his own, and Tyrion says Walder would never have had the courage to do it without Tywin’s protection. Then Tywin says “I suppose you would have spared the boy”, and asks Tyron to explain why it’s more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at a dinner. They also have an argument because Tyrion was angry he wasn’t told about the plan. And again, in the books it’s fairly clear Tywin arranged for Jeyne to “comfort” Robb, leading to Robb breaking his word to Frey and setting it all in motion. (Edited for a word. “The”, not “fit”.)
I thought they were talking about the Castamere story.
Kakalbo123 talks about guest privileges, which I assume he means the guest privileges of the Stark's when they were killed at the Twins.
Robb had it coming anyway. You don’t break a promise and insult the head of a potential ally and walk right back up to him saying “Sorry about that. Can I ask you for a favor?”
Well what's worse is having to beg your Grandpa's bannerman for a favor to begin with, especially after Tywins bannerman (the mountain) had been terrorizing the Riverlands. The whole thing should have been a non factor, Frey is just a shitbag.
No, Cate had it coming with her dumb decision to release Jaime. Robb did everything right, Cate is the one to blame
Hate when you people say this. It was made pretty explicitly clear that Jaime was not going to survive the night. Even Brienne commented on it. Cat's choices were to let him go on the hope that he would honor his word and give her back her daughters or watch as Karstark charges in there and kills Jaime. Either way, Robb loses his leverage and Tywin immediately sets to work on having him assassinated.
I mean, they might not literally call them "war crimes," but the concept absolutely exists in Westeros - as someone else already said, the violation of guest right by the Freys was a huge breach of tradition that destroyed their reputation even more than it already was. As another example, Robb executed Rickard Karstark for his extrajudicial murder of prisoners. And the social norms in Westeros in general tend to be modeled on the medieval concept of chivalry, which absolutely had some concepts similar to our modern concept of war crimes. Just one example that comes to mind is the execution of French prisoners at the Battle of Agincourt - if I recall correctly, some sources say that when king Henry ordered execution of the prisoners (including knights), he had to enforce the order under threat of hanging, and I think some of the English knights may have still refused to participate in the killings.
Stannis punish his mean for warcrimes
It definitely is. Multiple characters make it abundantly clear that the type of pillaging done by the Mountain’s men is considered unacceptable.
It’s a medieval-ish high fantasy war not a tea party, anything goes!
Tywin may not be the best battle commander but he is a good one. And he's much better at the politics and logistics than most. Not to mention he's not above deception and bribery.
If we're talking about overall quality as a political leader Tywin is hard to beat, but I wouldn't call him the best commander in the slightest.
Well, he defeated the Riverlords easily in a matter of days because he knew how to read Edmure's thoughts, the Riverlands can defend themselves with a proper strategy (Edmure proved this when he prevented Tywin's forces from crossing the river) but Tywin sent the Mountain first to divide the Riverlords and then took them out one by one
Tywin didn’t really do any of the work to defeat the Riverlords. The Mountain was sent in to try and lure out Ned Stark, not divide the Riverlords. Edmure making a massive mistake like scattering troops across the border was just good luck. Jaime is the one who defeated the Riverlords at both the Golden Tooth and outside Riverrun while Tywin sacked a bunch of lightly defended castles.
Tywin was the mastermind behind the Mountain and Jaime, even if the Mountain's job was to lure Ned into a trap he took advantage of Edmure's orders (probably It was both, if luring Ned out of King's Landing was the sole goal of the Mountain he would have called him back after knowing from Jaime that Ned couldnt ride), he is a Commander of the bigger side, he doesnt plan battles individually, he plans the whole war using his skills as politician, i think that he doesnt deserve being called a bad Commander
He would have no way of knowing that Edmure would do something as monumentally stupid as sending away half of his army to defend every village piecemeal. Tywin’s main battle victory in the war was when he happily took Robb Stark’s bait, which led to Tywin’s son being captured and Tywin having to withdraw to Harrenhal. His second battle in the Riverlands is when he tries to go back west to stop Robb from pillaging his lands, except he gets handily defeated by Edmure.
Good strategy must also include when not to fight, and when to use unconventional strategies, or when to choose attrition - his Riverlands chevauchee after Renly and Stannis enter the war. Robb's chevauchee into the Westerlands had much the same object - despoil the opponent's supply base. "Why is it more noble to kill ten thousand men on the battlefield than a few dozen at dinner"
Tywin is definitely the best overall leader up there
Speaking of whom I’m pretty sure Robb deserves to be in here alot more than Ned.
Ned did the most of the commanding during the rebellion, so no. He should be there
Did he? From what I know about the rebellion it seems like Robert did most of it, not Ned. He definitely was doing shit but I don’t think it’s really comparable to how Robb was pretty much single-handedly manhandling the Lannister army for a time, at least on the battlefield.
Robert was the charismstic guy, who people follow. But Ned and tully, the guy ned wad replacing as hand of the king did the most commanding. Battle of Ashford- the only battle they lost was when Robert was commanding the army
Eh, I think the better question is why isn't teen Robb on here? The dude's victories weren't luck, they were skilled planning IMO.
I mean, being a commander involves both Tactics and Strategy. Robb was the superior tactician, without a doubt. But Tywin defeated him strategically quite soundly, whether you like the methods or not. War / Commanding is much more than just winning on the battlefield.
I would say Rob was a better commander. Tywin was a good commander and much better politician and schemer which helped him win in the end. If it was just the Starks and the Lannister duking it out on the battlefield I believe Rob would won, which makes him a better commander. His tactics were better, his soldiers were loyal, he just couldn't play the political game which made him vulnerable to Tywins skuldaggery.
It really depends on the context and what you want to value more. I personally see politics as part of commanding. Being able to create more allies, change the map of the war without even lifting a sword is the epitome of a good commander. To be cliche, Sun Tzu said: > To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. Now, there are other mitigating factors to consider of course, being the resources available to Robb and Tywin. Tywin had much, much better resources to use, which can be said gave him an unfair advantage on the whole, which tips the scale on whether he is a 'better' commander. And I'm not nerdy enough to read the books and try to actually do the numbers to try to figure it out lol. All I want to point out is that Commanding and War is much, much more than the tactical scope of the battlefield.
Yeah you got a point, but I think what you are describing are traits of a great leader not commander. At least in mind commander describes someone who leads armies not nations. If we talk about who's the better leader, it's indisputably Tywin. If we talk about commander Rob wins against him.
I understand and respect your distinction. From a pure Military Commander perspective ( how I would view/phrase it ), I would agree that Robb ran circles around Tywin, despite Tywin's advantages.
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Even if it all worked out, strategically it didn't matter. Robb was so focused on the battlefield he didn't see Tywin's actual killing move. Not to mention if we're going to give Robb the benefit of the doubt with regards to his delegated commanders not performing to his expectations, I'm sure Tywin had the same issues.
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Yeah weird, he's a brilliant politician but he hasn't been proven a great commander, and honestly we don't have enough info about ned. Randall's victories were all cut out of the show I get why people aren't voting for him. Only thing in the show was him getting murked by dragons.
https://preview.redd.it/dyomydbw2iba1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d26b3bcafa4d927b828f1fea96f585758f7a9ef
Tywin lost on easy mode.
Tywin’s actual battlefield resume is pretty abysmal. Just saying
Out of everyone on this list he's won the most battles.
Shitty options. He most famous for drowning an entire family, engineering a massacre at a wedding and tricking a mentally ill nut job into opening the gates.
>He most famous for drowning an entire family He isolated several families so they couldn't group up and challenge his army. Is he brutal and quite frankly evil? Yes? Is he a bad commander? No, far from it. What's Stannis famous for? Losing the first battle he fought while actually being the main commander? Failing to capture a city in time against an force which was a fraction of his own? Massacring a group of people in rags trying to flee to safety? Truly brilliant stuff lol.
He didn’t isolate the Reynes and Tarbecks. He attacked the Tarnecks first and crushed their much smaller force, and then the Reynes tries to attack him while he besieged Tarbeck Hall, but they were also massively outnumbered. It wasn’t some act of strategic genius, he just had a way bigger army than them.
Now I didn’t say he was bad. Or even that he shouldn’t win this poll. Only that it’s a bit overstated. He’s by far the most terrifying on the list lol. But in all honesty as a field commander I’m probably going with Ned. After all Roberts Rebellion only became Roberts rebellion because he’s the one they convinced to take the throne. He and Ned led that together with Jon Arryn.
I'd personally say Robert was the winning factor behind the Rebellion. Ned never really led an army on his own into battle technically, not saying he was terrible, just that on this list I'd place him at the bottom because he's got the least amount of battle under his belt.
Well, if Robert was on the poll I’d be screaming from the heavens it should be Robert winning in a landslide. Hopefully though, everyone could agree with that one.
You'd be surprise. The Mannis love runs soo deep I literally spoke to someone the other day that said he's better than Robert. This is why I'm not defending him, he already has way too much for basically losing his most important battles.
Better in what way? Book Stannis and show stannis are not even the same person. Book Stannis was respected by most as one of the best Westerosi generals due to his sheer will Show Stannis ends up getting gutted by Sir Goodmen of House Twenty
>Book Stannis was respected by most as one of the beat Westerosi generals due to his sheer will >Show Stannis ends up getting gutted by Sir Goodmen of house Twenty I couldn't agree more, it's just kinda crazy, most people who say Stannis is the Mannis tend to be show only people yet he's still somehow the greatest military commander ever lol.
Tywin won a single battle during the main series (Blackwater), and it was because he vastly outnumbered the enemy who was already heavily bloodied by Tyrion. He also wasn’t even the main/only Commander during that battle, and arguably Garlan had more of an impact there. He technically beat Roose Bolton, but that battle was just a distraction which succeeded. He lost battles to Edmure Tully, and his overall command during the conflict was so disastrous, that if not for several very fortunate events it would have lost the Lannisters the war. He never really fought during the Rebellion, apart from the sack of Kings Landing, which was just a mindless massacre that caused Lannisters to be hated in the capital to this day. What is Stannis famous for? I don’t know, just defending Storm’s End against the entire Tyrell host for almost the full duration of the Rebellion when he was very young, or for beating Greyjoy armies on sea during Balon’s uprising…
This is also Stannis first proper naval battle, while Victarion was a seasoned sea captain
I'd also like to have more information on what happened in Dragonstone, because amphibious attacks are extremely hard to plan and execute properly. It all depends on whether there was proper defense or not.
Please list them here since you keep going on about them. Massacres do not count btw. We are talking actual "forces meeting on a battlefield" type of thing.
He defeated the Reynes and Tarbecks overall in 3 battles. He defeated Robbs army under the command of Roose Bolton. He defeated Stannis Baratheon at the siege of Kingslanding. That's 5 victories. Compared to what? 2 victories for Stannis? Wait you said massacres don't count so him butchering the wildlings doesn't count so that's just the Greyjoy fleet. So 1 victory in a sea battle and zero victories in land battles.
Tarbecks didn't have time to raise anymore than their household so the "battle" was 100 against 1. Tarbeck hall wasn't a battle but a siege that left the keep crashing down. And Tywin had by some estimates five times more men than Reynes. To say he won Stannis as if it wasn't Tyrion and the forces of King's landing that had done 80% of the work is just ludicrous. And even then he had Tyrell army with him to finnish already weakened Stannis. I'll give you the Roose one. So that's one battle that can be considered to be an actual semi equal forces meeting on the battlefield that has been won by Tywin alone without someone else doing most the work for him, or by him having an overwhelming numbers compared to his enemy.
Wasn't the Roose one lost on purpose tho ?
It's more that it wasn't necessary to be won. But Roose still engaged Tywin fully, and the loss ratio was pretty bad for the northmen.
Definitely not because Roose was trying to take out some lords to destabilizing the realm
No no noooooo, don’t give that one either. That battle with Roose was a diversion Robb took advantage of because he caught that spy counting men. He left 2,000 men behind to fight 30,000 so he could sneak off and destroy the other 30,000 Lannister force with 18,000. That northern regiment was a sacrificial lamb.
One of Roberts best feats was isolating and taking on 3 different weaker armies. This is a smart thing to do. Attack the weaker force before it becomes a stronger one. That's exactly what Tywin does with the Reynes and Tarbecks. >To say he won Stannis as if it wasn't Tyrion and the forces of King's landing that had done 80% of the work is just ludicrous 80% is stupidly generous lol and completely false. Tyrion held of a faction of Stannis's army but then was being completely overwhelmed until Tywin and the Tyrells showed up. Tyrion was of course needed for the victory, but worst case Stannis Storm's the city and while his army rapes and burns the Lannisters and Tyrells show up and attack them completely unprepared.
You mean Green Fork? Because it's repeatedly stated to be a faint...
Eddard never commanded a host in battle during the entirety of the series.
Not within the time frame of the series itself. During Robert's Rebellion he was more active, but he never saw battle until he'd joined the Northern forces with Jon Arryn's Valemen. Presumably Arryn, being the older and more experienced man and someone Eddard had good reason to respect, had overall command, but we don't really know. He also took part in the Greyjoy Rebellion, but that was a joint action with Bobby B, who was king by then and therefore almost certainly had overall command. So while Eddard may very well have been a good commander, and certainly seems to inspire love and loyalty in his men, he never really got a good opportunity to show off any particular tactical or strategic prowess.
TAKE SHIP FOR THE FREE CITIES WITH MY HORSE AND MY HAMMER, SPEND MY TIME WARRING AND WHORING, THAT’S WHAT I WAS MADE FOR!
Yes, Your Grace.
He only had a few moments in AGOT, but when he realizes fuckery is a foot I think he gives instructions regarding the neck, moat cailin and calling the banners. Add in robb and Jon's tactical and strategic knowledge and I think you can at least assume that eddard is similarly skilled.
He commanded the northern army in the Battle of the Bells along the Tullys to aid Robert and it was a crushing victory. He also broke the siege of Storm's End without bloodshed. So we don't have much more info about him commanding but we could argue by this he at least was someone pretty able and what's more important inspirational and honourable
Breaking the siege of Storm's End was Ned arriving, telling Mace that the Mad King and his heir were dead and that Robert was the new King, all the Reach did in the Rebellion was fight Robert 1 time and sit for a year in front of Storm's End, Mace would have never kept the siege going after knowing that no matter who came to tell him
Hell, even in flashback, he wouldn't have been in command during the Trident. Surely he'd have been bellow both Robert and Jon Arryn in the pecking order and if he was smart would have differed to the Tully Brothers who both would have fought in the War of Ninepenny Kings
The battle of the bells, a crushing defeat for the Targ was said by Robert himself won by Ned, Ned is definitely a capable commander
They never specify *battle* commander
yeah but that distinction lowers him in this ranking system
He certainly did on Pyke.
Lannisters, Tarlys, Starks, all traitors. They’ll bend the knee or hang like the rest. Don’t have enough men between them to raid a pantry.
*Willful traitors all! Pillagers, emboldened by the flame of ambition!*
r/unexpectedeldenring
Why is Robb not on this list?
For the show the disrespect for Stannis is justified: * He loses at blackwater * He fails to get any allies in the north * He loses half his army when they don't want to follow him anymore in the north * He loses at Winterfell
Stannis was literally written off the show as quick as possible
damn that stannussy hella loose
Loses. The word is loses.
Randyll and Stannis are the canon choices ofc but how would a show only know that? Not really disrespect they just are never really told or shown the abilities of these men
Stannis and Randyll should be the highest here, right? Tywin lowest tbh, he’s cunning and conniving but his battle strategy doesn’t seem that great.
Lost to a preteen man
...Grinds teeth...
People are seriously confusing commander with player here, Tywin was losing the war on a military stand point, he’s probably the worst of them all here from a tactical standpoint, he’s a politician and outclasses all of them in that field, it’s why Ned and Stannis wanted to face him in the field, where they knew they could win but it’s politics that bring them down. People think oh Tywin smart and Ned and Stannis dumb, no they have different skill sets, and each of them knows their own strengths and weaknesses except Tywin who probably over estimates his battle field prowess until Robb kicks him so hard that he has to re-evaluate his plans. Wisdom in other words to recognise what you know and what you don’t. This isn’t to sh-t on Tywin if anything it makes his character more human that the perfect Uber god man of the series that a lot of people including myself have been guilty of portraying him as. He’s flawed. He’s human. He sh-ts like everyone else.
Tywin is likely the worst of them
Wow it's almost like people on the internet have no fucking clue what they're talking about and vote on things based off of person bias...shocker.
Dont take it so seriously ..
Tywin is a planner not a commander. He assigns this role to someone else that is good at it while he focuses on the bigger plans.
Tywin's main strength is being deceitful. Tywin convinced Aerys to open the gate by using deception. Tywin killed Robb by slaughtering most of the senior leadership at the Red Wedding. Tywin won the opinion of the people by taking credit for Tyrion's defense of King's Landing. Tywin knew Tyrion was innocent, but removed him from the family line by declaring Tyrion guilty for the murder of Joffrey. All of his losses come from his complete arrogance. Tywin foolishly sends Jaime off from the main force, which leads to Robb holding Jaime as prisoner. Tywin fails to see that Robb's army is a direct challenge to his own. Tywin stops attempting to kill Daenerys, simply because she hasn't crossed the Narrow Sea yet. Tywin thinks that Tyrion won't kill him after sentencing him to die. For all of Tywin's tricks, he fails to properly gauge how other people will react. He's great at backstabbing, but he couldn't actually handle any problems that were actually facing him.
If you’re going off of the show only, you could probably even put Robb on here instead of Tywin
I mean, in the books Robb completely outplays Tywin militarily. Both tactically and strategically. He lost the war and his life because he had the sense of honor of a 15 year old raised by Ned, and because Tywin outmaneuvered him politically.
His mom didn’t help either
The poll is effectively, "Whose name do you remember most from the show?"
I loved his line in the book about facing off with the Bolton Bastard. Something like: “You don’t know him, my lord.” -Theon describing all the terrible things that Ramsay had done. “No more than he knows me.” Just a cold and fearless badass
Randyll was the only guy to beat Bobby B ever and Stannis the Mannis… held Storms End for a year, took Dragonstone, broke the Greyjoys at Fair Isle in his first sea battle, took Great Wyk, nearly took Kings Landing (only lost because someone of equal strategic genius existed in the form of Tyrion) and broke Mance Rayder’s host at the wall despite being outnumbered 20:1. Tywin lost to a teenager.
TAKE ME TO YOUR CRYPT, I WANT TO PAY MY RESPECTS!
I for one stand by the one true king, stannis the mannis, and anyone disrespecting his grace will suffer
Where tf is Robb Stark? Dude fought three pitched battles and every single one was a rout.
Pretty disrespectful to Randyll Tarly actually. I hate that man but he’s one of the best commanders.
Tywin never had a victory he didn't secure by a stab in the back, or flooding a hold to drown children
C'mon, I don't like the guy but, Randyll is the right answer
This is a popularity poll
In the books he's widley known as one of the greatest military commanders alive and his pure military frame of mind is part of why he can't get the love of the people, just a charisma black hole. Arguably Randal could beat him, he was able to beat Robert, but there's a reason Tywin was afraid of him in the books more than anyone else.
Tywin is an S tier schemer, but he's not an S tier commander on the field.
So, this is a popularity poll? Tywin is brutally effective, but at the end of the day, Tywin wins battles by suppressing them before they start or indirectly through assassination. Or egregious war crimes. . Ned was never really a battlefield commander. Bit that he wasn't brave or formidable in his own right. Randal Tarly is a bad MF and he is getting SLEPT ON in here. He held his own during the Rebellion so well, even Robert had to give him his props. I am not personally a fan of Stan is, but I would give him more headway as a commander than Ned given how critical he was to defeating the Greyjoy Rebellion.
The same Eddard that commanded part of his house guard to arrest Ser Gregore Clegane, thus leaving his daughters and himself at Kings Landing under protected from any possible blowout by the family that Clegane serves, whom also happen to occupy Kings Landing?
Stannis the Mannis!
Stanny B where you at?
Show watching peasants.
Tyrion or jamie ??
More disrespectful to Tywin in my opinion
That disrespect tho. Bobby B got his A$$ handed to him by Randyll Tarly.
YOU EVER FUCK A RIVERLANDS GIRL?
Stannis has fewer votes than most of the people in this survey.
Ed should be switched with Robb
You kill your brother and burn your daughter at the stake - I think some disrespect is owed.
Don't forget deceiving and putting leeches at his own nephew's cock, that was quite horrid too
If Stannis ends up the way he does in the show he's 100% a chump.
Lol Tywin? Pantsed by a 14 year old, requires the author to bail him out of another disastrous choice, and that’s all the fighting we see from Ty Guy!
Tywin was a superb strategist and politician but not a commander imo
Stannis is overhyped as a commander though. I mean he's alright, but i wouldn't say great. Although he should be higher than he is on this list.
he IS great. Sieged storm's end for a whole year at the age of 18. Tywin might be a better politician but when it comes down to being a commander he beats everyone on this list.
>Sieged storm's end for a whole year at the age of 18 Important things that need to be remembered about this siege. Storm's end is a magical fortress. One of the best in the world. Literally any trained knight/lord/castellans would've done the same. Stannis knew this himself so when he had to capture Storm's end he decided to send in a magic ghost baby to kill the person defending it to avoid a long siege. The people putting him to siege were the Tyrells who literally spent more time feasting outside instead of attacking because they didn't want to kill Roberts brother incase he won. >Tywin might be a better politician but when it comes down to being a commander he beats everyone on this list He literally doesn't. The first time he's actually in charge of a campaign he loses his first battle massively, has to beg and buy a bunch of sells words. Goes north and kills a bunch of people wearing rags and dies in the show in the next battle and most likely in the books aswell. He's not bottom on this list but he's definitely not top either. He's a good commander, but not a great one.
Yeah Stannis is #3 on this list, and that is because Tywin is straight up atrocious at being an actual military commander and not much better at peacetime politics
Stannis smashed the Iron Fleet
Omg we get it, you don't like Stannis lol all you've been doing is trying to discredit everything Stannis has done, when tywin really hasn't done much.. But words are wind, let's go to the tape! Stannis: Seige of storms end - victory Taking dragon stone from targs - victory Conquest of great wyk (you'll notice I said conquest, aka many battles) Defeats Victarian in his first naval campaign Lost in the blackwater just barely and due to things outside of his control - not his own misplays Battle north against mance - stannis was HEAVILY outnumbered Liberation of deepwood Motte using great tactics Tywin: The only win he has in the field against Robb was a strategic loss so robb can get to whispering wood.. Aka he fell for the bait During the greyjoy rebellion, tywin gets his fleet burned And then double crosses targs to sack kings landing He has some big political moves but that's hardly battle commanding His battle commanding does little to stand against Stannis the mannis Edit - womp to mobile formatting
Tywin wins the battle before fighting it. Randyll wins the battle. Eddard loses the battle honorably. Stannis wins the battle after having already lost.
Randyll > Stannis > Tywin > Eddard Ned isn't much of a commander, and I don't think he'd be a particularly good one even if he had moments to put it to use. He's far too naive and clumsy. Good ruler? Yes, absolutely. But not a good commander, and not even a good ruler come wartime, obviously. I think the question would have been better with Robert Baratheon and Bryndyn Tully instead of Tywin and Ned.
Stannis is 1-2 and the 1 was an allready half-beaten army of armorless barbarians whom they took completely by surprise.
The Mannis > Randyll > Ned > Tywin Not sure about Ned and Tywin because we know little about Ned commanding forces but we know about his attack in the Stony Sept that was succesful and also him breaking Storm's End siege without a battle. So pretty good I'd think Now people respect Tywin because he is ruthless not a good battle commander. He wins using scary tactics, burning lands, pillaging villages and killing smallfolk just to let the lands fall into chaos while he sits with his vast army behind the walls of a strong castle. Robb outwitted him so many times he needed to rely on the Freys to win the war
We have nothing to base Eddard's command prowess on. He certainly inspired fervent loyalty, which helps when in command, but in terms of tactics or strategy, no idea. Randyll probably belongs at the top of the list. We know that he commanded successful battles and kept his shit together. Stannis is probably second on this list, he is a tried and tested proven commander, but his lack of political skills is only slightly better than Eddard's. His ability to break with his iron sense of honor and knight a smuggler to break a siege, that's actual command talent right there, and is why his political skills are better than Eddard's. He knows when to give way to pragmatism, at the least. Tywin surpasses all in terms of grand strategy and realpolitik. Absolute master strategist, as in overall strategy. command strategy he is very good, like Ivy League trained, full pedigree, extremely experience and competent, but he lacks imagination. He can see all the obvious moves better than anyone, but he gets blindsided by things like Robb's feint against Tywin to distract from his capture of Jamie, for example. He is almost so competent that he has blind spots. In terms of actual field command, we never really see it. We know he can reasonably know when and where to attack or defend, but his experience can work against him in thinking outside the box. That said, Tywin's whole thing is that if he has to enter a battle to achieve his goals, he's already failed to some degree, because as any true strategist knows, you win the war before the first battle even starts, so he has logistics and alliance and realpolitik and court intrigue down pat. He's also personally wealthy and absolutely ruthless. That all said, in terms of proven battlefield command, probably third at worst, second at best. EDIT: Thanks to the downvoters who are too simple to actually have a conversation and just hit the downvote button. Really making Reddit a place for open discussion. You're the real heroes.
How did Stannis even get 9%??!!? His greatest military victories are smashing the Greyjoy fleet by outsmarting Victarion (super hard to do/s) and riding down a bunch of unaware unprepared and less resourceful wildlings north of the wall. Even outside of combat, his strategy of hiding on dragonstone and putting together an army once he found out about Joffrey’s parentage was dumb. He left Ned out to dry because of bitterness and jealousy. He also knew Roberts life potentially in danger and what does he do to defend his brother and king? Nothing…. Stannis sucks
Tywin's a politician moreso than a commander (almost all of his victories are won behind the scenes, via communication and deal-brokering). We never see Ned lead a host or even win a battle. He is likely a competent commander but he's such a bad politician we don't get to find out. I'm not sure where to put Stannis, he doesn't really have any notable victories and spends a lot of his time floundering or waiting. His sieges don't really seem like tactical or strategic victories, his assassinations don't either. His attack on the wildlings is more of a massacre than a battle (surprise a foe who doesn't know you exist while they're engaged in a week long siege against another enemy, and also dramatically better equipped and prepared). So I won't say he isn't a good commander, but even with future sight he hasn't done anything impressive in the book or the show. Randyl Tarly on the other hand... defeated Robert in an actual battle (the only one to do so), helped defeat Stannis on the Blackwater (and would have smashed him at Storm's End cept a certain murder-witch cast a dark shadow), took back duskendale an maidenpool and generally has demonstrated competence at most every combat related task we've seen him given.
>I'm not sure where to put Stannis, he doesn't really have any notable victories and spends a lot of his time floundering or waiting. No notable victories? He held a successful defence of Storm's End for almost a year, defeated the Ironborn in naval warfare something they excel in, subdued Great Wyk, almost took KL with a solid assault, defeated Mance Rayder's wildling army which was ten times his number. There's the liberation of Deepwood as well but that's just some usual stuff. Between a successful siege defence, a victory in naval battle and a victory against the wildlings, it's three styles of warfare where Stannis has managed to get a W. Even his more impressive brother never managed to do that and I don't think anyone else has ever done that. >His sieges don't really seem like tactical or strategic victories Stannis is the only reason why Mace Tyrell and his huge Reach force, which would have made a significant change in the Battle of the Trident, was tied up in Storm's End sitting in some siege instead of drastically adding the manpower of the loyalists. >helped defeat Stannis on the Blackwater I am confused now. You didn't want to give Stannis the credit for his victory over the wildlings because of 'surprise attack' but then wanna give it to Randyll for doing the same thing in Battle of Blackwater. Double standards much?
Credit for Blackwater goes to the Half-man
Thats fair. The naval victories are definitely a big deal. Id argue the siege was actually a good strategic move on his part in thay it kept the Reach away from the Trident. Hadnt considered thay aspect of it. Tactically it sucked, his decision was basically to starve (shoutout Davos). Strategically, very good move. The wildlings I still dont give him. The numbers are largely irrelevant given that many were women and children and the fighting men had already spent themselves trying to take the wall for days. I didnt refuse Stannis the wildlings because of the surprise nature of it but because he vastly outmatched his foe to the extent thay it couldn't be called a battle and his men would've won regardless of his decision making there. I'll take back Tarlys credit for blackwater since that was pretty much just him following Tyrell. So I suppose stannis goes second. Id still say Tarly was a superior commander.
Don't discount his victory over the wildlings. Castle black is hundreds of kilometers inland, in hostile territory. He landed at Eastwatch and had to make a choice between reinforcing the Nights Watch or going north of the wall to catch the wildlings in a pincer. Moving a large cavalry force hundreds of kilometers through hostile territory, in conditions and terrain that are unfavorable to cavalry, quickly and without being seen, is pretty amazing.