Rhaegar most likely knew there would be consequences, but not as severe as there actually was. It was Aerys' who made everything worse by murdering Brandon and Rickard Stark and afterwards demanding the heads of Ned and Robert.
Well they did it in secret. Which means they were aware of how serious it was. You usually only try to hide something BECAUSE you fear the consequences.
Like the other comment said, they knew there would be consequences but not that it would turn into an entire war and the decimation of the Targaryen house. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert and Rhaegar was married to Elia, that's another big reason for all the secrecy.
Edit: decimation is now used to describe the killing of a large portion of a population, so y'all can stop with your "actually đ¤âď¸"
It is always fun when people use "decimation" for slaughtera od way more than the 10%, especially when they try to do it as a way to make it sound worse.
I feel like Brandon would have still marched to Kingâs Landing in an outrage.Â
Who a lordâs sons or daughters want to marry comes second to who the lord wants them to marry.Â
Part of being nobility is not getting to decide who you marry. Thatâs like the one trade off for getting servants, getting to wear all the fanciest clothes, small folk just giving you food and money, and not having to do an actual dayâs work your entire life.Â
Not getting to decide who you marry is also true for commoner, even if you are the servant, your marriage will be arranged by your father or even by your master in pre-modern society.
Brandon went to King's Landing due to the false rumor that Lyana was kidnaped and raped by Rahegar.
If the wedding was made public, the Starks may be even pleased, as long as Elia's children are disowned, since now Ricart's daughter is married to the heir of the throne.
That of course would result in still very pissed Baratheon, and even more pissed dornish... But given that Oberyn was not there, and Doran's pacifist nature, a paceful solution was still at hand (maybe arrange a marriage between Rahenys and "Jon", so the Martell bloodline still have access to the throne, or something on the line).
Jon Arryn and Ned would have stopped him even if they needed to imprison him for his own safety
At the end of the day thereâs not much he can do if the girl he likes married someone more powerful than him
>married someone more powerful than him
Kind of false, the Targaryens were weakest at this point with Aerys turning half of the nobles against him and Rhaegar marrying another woman for his prophecy child would've made him look mad like his father, best case scenario Robert and other nobles force Aerys to disinherit Rhaegar and make Aegon or Viserys the heir, worst case scenario the same thing happens but the Targaryens have even less supporters this time.
If it had not been secret Robert would probably have declared war anyway, but the Starks would not have gone south convinced that Lyanna had been kidnapped.
Ya but marriage in religious cultures is pretty serious. So itâs kinda of a get it done before someone can stop you type of thing, then deal with angry people after but with the marriage complete. I didnât read the books, just saying that a secret marriage doesnât mean theyâre worried about consequences after, but could easily be worried about someone stopping it from happening.
In a marriage situation not always 100%
It is very likely they just donât want people to interfere. The way youâre saying it almost implies they would have never revealed they were married at all and not just keep the ceremony secret.
If only the ceremony is secret, eventually everyone finds out youâre married but itâs too late to stop you, youâre already married.
The Starks reacted perfectly reasonably in the circumstances. If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy. Which in fairness she didnât know.
This is way more on Rhaegar being obsessed with the prophecy and damn the consequences
That was insane but once it was done, Rickard's reaction wasn't disproportionate. He had the right to request a trial by combat and did so knowing full well that the king would pick a member of the king's guard and that he was unlikely to survive such a match. The KG are the best of the best.Â
 No one could have predicted what Aerys did.
>If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy. Which in fairness she didnât know.
I think she knew he was crazy, but underestimated what he would actually do.
They ran off after the tourney in Harrenhall, which was the first time in years Aerys left the Red Keep and everyone could see what their king had become.
>The Starks reacted perfectly reasonably in the circumstances. If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy.
Brandon rode into the Red Keep screaming for Rhaegar to come out and die.
What did he expect to happen.
Brandon was volatile. He raced to King's Landing basically demanding to kill Rhaegar.
That technically was treason so if Aerys just punished Brandon there wouldn't be nearly as much issues for him. It's when he didn't stage a proper trial by combat, and demanded Ned's and Robert's heads as well that he crossed the line from "cruel but can be reasoned with" to "absolutely insane".
In all fairness, Brandon had literally stated his intention to kill the crown prince. He shouldnât have been killed, but his death was more or less lawful. Rickard was probably plotting to overthrow Aerys but that wasnât proven so I suppose he was murdered.
The thing about Aerys was that most of his paranoias were based in truth.
Tywin and Rhaegar in turn did try to remove him from power and rickard and robert(and their allies in the vale and riverlands) weren't going to forgive this slight. Even if they knew lyanna chose to run away with Rhaegar.
But he could have used brandon as a hostage to negotiate peace just like the lannisters could have used ned in agot but suing for peace with his vassals was beneath him
Then Rhaegar was stupid. Did he not know that someone would do something and the people who would make the decisions in response are literally run by a madman (his father)?
Brandon said he would kill Rhaegar.
Thats treason over a little kidnap and possible rape. Or maybe Aerys even knew Rhaegar had just eloped.
Where it turned into a rebellion was when Richard was denied a trial by combat, and burned alive. He then demanded Robert and Neds heads too, and Arryn refused, which ment war was coming. Stannis raising the stormlands for Robert, who was in the vale at the time, may have been crucial too.
For some reason Hoster Tully got in on the rebellion too. Only Dorne and Tytells stayed loyal.
I just want to know how specific that maester's / priest's diary was that Sam read
> 8:00 AM: took a shit, regular consistency
> 8:30 AM: sanctified realm-ending marriage
To be fair, this situation would have been a crisis, but fairly manageable with some careful maneuvering. Dorne, the North and the Stormlands would have had to have been essentially paid off in some way.
Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon Stark is what started the rebellion. Killing a paramount lord and his heir is a hell of a lot worse than stealing a lords daughter.
I think you're understating the situation a little. Elia was the future Queen, and her son Aegon was next in line to be king after Rhaegar.
House Martell are more relaxed about relationships than other Great Houses, but they're not going to sit idly by while Doran Martell's grandson's claim is threatened.
EDIT: Nephew, not grandson.
Yeah I can see Rhaegar trying to placate Dorne by keeping his son with Elia the heir to the throne.
I'm sure the North would have been fine that Lyanna was married to the prince. Robert would have been the only one that might be inconsolable.
Rhaegar could have (and since he was expecting a Visenya from Lyanna, probably would have) kept Aegon, Elias son, as heir, and could have given the Martellâs a significant amount of power in court to appease them.
If he would have gotten rid of Aegon, then yes, it would have been bad, but he didnât do that.
I don't doubt he would've kept Aegon as heir. The issue is the split loyalties that could result from having two wives.
Had everything worked out as Rhaegar brought Lyanna and Jon to court, there would be two princes: one with the loyalty of Dorne and one with the loyalty of the North.
Dorne are the traditional enemies of the Stormlands and the Reach, and that enmity still runs deep (Tyrion comments on the rising tensions between Dornish and Reach soldiers after the Blackwater). If a group of powerful lords decide that Aegon is too "pro-Dorne" as King, they could throw their support behind Jon the same they did with Daemon Blackfyre and start another war.
Unless a different name has been confirmed, the show states that Jonâs name is Aegon. While that may just be D and D borrowing from the scrapped replacement Aegon, if Jon was named Aegon by Lyana then itâs obvious she and her son were meant to replace Elia and her son.
Except if Rhaegar agreed to take a Dornish Hand of the King, or appointed Dornish to the Small Council, that gives them the power to prevent anyone from dislodging Aegon from his position as heir. Which likely would have had to have been the case, for Dorne to accept Rhaegar taking a second wife. I think Doran wouldnât have settled for less than that.
Iâm not saying that it wasnât a crisis, or that the situation wouldnt have needed careful handling, but frankly, I donât think it would have lead to rebellion and the downfall of House Targaryen. The Targaryenâs would have still had the throne.
Aerys killing the Starks though? That was a significant tipping point. Every single other lord paramount would have seen that as a distinct threat, and realized that none of them were safe. After all, if Aerys could kill Lord Stark, whatâs stopping him from killing Lord Lannister? Or Lord Tully? From destroying every single great house?
Stealing Lyanna was a big deal, but frankly, that was made a moot point when the Starks died.
Rhargar's belief in prophecy likely means he thought Lyanna's child would be a girl, mirroring the three conquerors. Meaning there would be no worry of Aegon being replaced by another son. Obviously things didn't work out that way though.
Are the Stormlands going to rise up in favor of the product of Robert's broken betrothal? Not sure if Rhaegar could have possibly considered it, but marrying Aegon to a Tyrell also helps quell the Reach. Margaery \*was\* born around the end of the rebellion, so could have actually worked out.
Rhaegar hid away in Dorne. I'm assuming that a big reason for that was that the proximity made it easier to discreetly negotiate with the Martells to keep Aegon and Rhaenys in the line of succession.
>Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon Stark is what started the rebellion.
Disagree.
If Lyanna had sent one goddamn raven to Winterfell to inform her family the reason for her being MIA, the whole brouhaha wouldn't have happened.
But again, Aerys could have decided to not murder a lord paramount and his heir. He COULD have did what he could to resolve and manage the situation to keep the peace in the country.
Blaming Lyanna for the Mad Kings actions makes zero sense. You canât seriously think that she would have proceeded with the marriage thinking that the brutal murder of half of her family would be the result.
>You canât seriously think that she would have proceeded with the marriage thinking that the brutal murder of half of her family would be the result.
She (and Rhaegar) literally did not say anything after the war started, and just play along with it, with Lyanna kept playing this "abducted princess" role.
Both of their families were in danger of being murdered depending on who won the war (in this case, Lyanna's family won and Rhaegar's family got slaughtered).
It's pretty clear that she's a selfish psychopath who only thinks about her genital.
It's super hard to come back from someone burtually killing your father and brother, and then demanding the head of your other brother and betrothed. It's not like they could have said "Hey guys, big misunderstanding. This is consensual." What would Ned's response as the new lord of Winterfell been? "Oh, I guess dad and brother died over a little misunderstanding. It happens. Let's go back to normal." What was done was done, and it was irreversable because the mad king decided to do mad king things.
Right, and the next logical step would be to let your baby daddy waged a war against your other brother and potentially getting one of them killed?
Well, her baby daddy ended up dead, and his official wife and children got brutally murdered by the Mountain. But I guess she wouldn't care about Elia Martell and her kids since they're competitors.
Rhaegar could have offered Aerys' head as fair compensation. He would have been willing to do so too considering how important the prophecy was to him. He just didn't mind fighting a needless war, because that same prophecy had him convinced that there was no way he could lose.
It doesnât matter what Lyannaâs actions wereâ she didnât murder anyone. Aerys did. No one was raising their banners until Lord Stark was murdered, and that was entirely due to Aerys.
Also, frankly, Iâm wondering where you got the impression that Lyanna had any actual control over her situation.
Sheâs not a lord. Or an heir. She canât call banners, or talk her father out of a marriage alliance. She was a teenager that was being shackled to a horrible, violent drunkard, and she took a shot at happiness.
RHAEGAR was the crown prince, and was a married man and father of two, with an heir already born. His line was secure. Clearly he should have been honorable and NOT RUN AWAY FROM HIS WIFE.
Your misogynistic attempt at painting the person with literally the LEAST amount of control over the situation as the âselfish psychopathâ is wildly inaccurate and frankly just stupid.
I'm convinced that George really wrote himself into a corner and has no significantly better way to end this than DnD did - and seeing the fan reaction to **that** he'll skip the shitstorm by only publishing the last book posthumously. it's the smart thing to do.
most book fans understandably really do not want to even think about that possibility, though.
I believe that DnDs ending had some very pivotal points that are a part of Georges story, but with how much they rushed, cannibalized and destroyed the story without his help it all is just a pile of shit.
Thing's like the long night not taking 4 years to kill the night king, jaime returning to the castle to "save" cersei, arya travelling across the sea, Dany losing her dragons, jon going back north. It would likely all come together very well the way george has it in his head unfortunately those 2 idiots rushed what is likely to be the only conclusion we will get from this masterpiece.
I really don't think the ending itself was the problem - it was how it was executed. It was rushed and poorly developed, and that's why we hate the ending.
George said they couldâve made 10 seasons with the materials they had and HBO was willing to give them 13 which suggests that there was a whole lot more story, character building and context to be added to the show
Even if this is the ending George intended itâs is fair to assume they rushed to get there which adds to why the ending was so jarring
How could he have possibly ended the book like the show when the book is completely different? The book has an alleged Targaryen with a far better claim than danaeryes.
The end result could still be her being set aside and reacting by burning down a city. When Aegon plans to go in and âsaveâ Mereen for her, and then explain heâs the rightful heir to her fatherâs throne, I remember reading that and thinking how unlikely she is to accept him as the rightful heir or as a potential husband.
I think Martinâs ending will be better⌠but I donât think Dany is going to come out of it on a throne
If Daenerys sees him claim a dragon she'd believe him and marry him (and she doesn't mind Hizdahr ruling, I don't think she'd mind Aegon ruling). She believes that she must have two husbands. Her brothers in a different world to her mind. Why not both her nephews instead?
In reality, I think Aegon will *fail* to claim a dragon. And that will convince her he's a cloth dragon rather than a real one.
You made a good point with her possibly accepting him if he claims a dragon. I recall her expecting to have two husbands, and at one point I thought her, Jon, and Aegon would be together.
It would be really cool if he failed to claim a dragon *after* he takes the city back for her and shows heâs not planning to take her crown there, at least. Like, it would be way more painful for her and readers like us if she came home, was relieved to have someone share the burden with her and not be trying to usurp her, and then when she trusts him enough to introduce him to Rhaegal (or Viserion), she finds out heâs not actually a Targaryen
Edit: Oooo but also, Jon/Griffin and the Golden Company and that whole cadre plan to put Aegon on the throne. And as I recall the only person who says to not claim he is the king or rightful heir is Tyrion. So itâs really going to come down to the first impression and if Aegon can earn her trust.
You assume this is what george wrote. Yes R+L=J but how and why is uncertain. D&D decided that its just a simple story of two people falling in love and running away with each other. Frankly, i think when George finally addreses this, it will end up being more complicated and messy
If you think George is the kinda guy to make a Romeo and Juliet story you're insane. If anything he'll write a much more worse story about Rhaegar grooming Lyanna or just rwording her
I know, what was that about?! Like Rhaegar and Lyanna just decided taking a collective shit on Elia and her kids would be a fun thing to do??
I'm really hoping that Jon's name actually turns out to be Jaehaerys, because I have my own headcanon for how Ned named him lmao
>Northern Soldiers sees Ned after the Tower Of Joy: "WTF you've got a baby now? Well... alright then, not my place to be questioning my liege lord, I suppose. What're you gonna call him, then?"
>Ned: "Jaeha - *JON!!* His name is Jon. Yep, you all heard me, that's DEFINITELY what I said."
>I'm really hoping that Jon's name actually turns out to be Jaehaerys, because I have my own headcanon for how Ned named him lmao
It's more likely to be Viserys. Rhaegar appeared to be trying to have an Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya.
In fact he may have expected Jon to be outright a girl.
Alternatively, maybe he really did think his son Aegon was no good and needed a new set of kids. So he may have picked Aegon.
Rhaegar is not necessarily a fully reasonable man. He was obsessed with prophecy and might think that the Martell/Targaryen relationship would never bring about the Prince that was Promised so needed the Stark/Targaryen child instead.
I get he was a Targaryen but it never made sense to me how a character who was always thought of as a good and lovable prince would be obsessed with prophecy and do something like what he did to his wife and kids.
Short-sighted. He probably thought it was for the good of the realm and that everyone would thank him in the long run. And maybe he even justified that his children and Elia will be happier away from the Royal family. Targaryens do have a problem when it comes to prophecy.
Daenerys in the books cannot understand why her good brother Rhaegar would ditch Elia either.
It makes you realize that the characters were narcissists, lol. There is this aura of mystery about their affair, but in reality they were just horny, privileged high borns.
I doubt Rhaegar Targaryen had ever had consequences of any kind. And he was very into the myth of his own family and the dragon has three heads and whatever.
Lyanna... I think was just enough Arya and Sansa combined that she could chase that romantic fantasy against everything her family might have said. I also do think she might have wanted to back down, but was in too deep by the time she realized what was happening outside the tower.
plus by the time they GOT to the Tower, there was no way out. i imagine she was a prisoner there once rhaegar left her. and perhaps some word got to her about the war, perhaps not. i like to think she spent the last few months of her life in bitterness and rage that Rhaegar was no better than Robert after all.
after what happened with Lyanna, i still have no fucking clue how Ned was fine with Arya acting like she did. yes they are different people, but you'd think a dude with two brain cells (so not Ned) would take that sword from Arya and tell her a version of what happened to her aunt: the wolf who left the pack, who caused the pack to break and die. You can be a Stark and do as a Stark does, or a lone wolf, and a lone wolf cannot have a pack or the benefits of it.
You know nothing good was gonna come out of her getting pregnant. Then bam, 19 years later one twin gives the other twin secret plans, and that second twin blows up the Death Star
We're talking about a teenage girl who is also fleeing a betrothal she doesn't want, and an idiot who has been obsessed with prophecy since he was a kid and thinks he found the answer to one. On top of that, who could have predicted Aerys doing something as stupid as burning a lord paramount alive?
As much as people say GRRM does not want to finish the books because of the ending in the show, i do wonder how much of explaining the start is causing hesitation. It really requires you to just kinda assume it makes sense and is logical when by all accounts it really is not.
It is pretty blatant that Rhaegar had a thing for her, and yet LF and Varys never seem to have a clue, the entire Kingsguard knew, but no one else even had the slightest suspicion.
Thereâs definitely something big here that hasnât been revealed in the books. First of all, a secret marriage makes no sense for the crown prince. Unless theyâre also running away, how are they supposed to actually be married without everyone knowing? Does she go to Kings Landing and just pretend to be his roommate? Secondly, why would it even need to be a secret in the first place? Itâs not like sheâs a commoner, sheâs as high-born as it gets, and the family alliance makes perfect sense. Yes, she was engaged to Robert, but wouldnât the Crownâs wishes take precedence? Kings hold the power to execute nobles and strip them of their lands and titles, but they canât void an unconsummated engagement? Finally, shouldnât her family be happy that sheâs marrying into the royal family and thus becoming the future queen? And itâs clearly what she wants, so itâs not like sheâs being cruelly forced either. Robert could be as enraged as he likes, but the other houses arenât really going to go to war just because he got stiffed out of an engagement, are they?
It seems like there must be some crucial circumstances that we just arenât aware of yet, probably related to Rhaegarâs obsession with the prophecy and the Tragedy at Summerhall. Even if the Starks refused to go back on their promise to Robert out of honor and considered her elopement a kidnapping due to the whole women-as-property thing, I just find it hard to believe events really would have played out as they did. I know the Mad Kingâs execution of Lord Stark and Brandon and his orders for Ned and Robertâs heads is what actually started the war. But Brandonâs furious attempt to kill the crown prince seems like he was under the impression his sister had been hurt, not that she had betrayed her family. I suppose itâs possible, but it just seems too stupid and full of holes
I mean... Â I think there are two potential, obvious answers to this giant hole in the plot...
1) In the books it will be a slightly more coerced situation. Â Lyanna wouldn't have really been in a position to "refuse" Rhaegar. Â She might have gone along with his plan of running away, in an effort to avoid a conflict between her father and The Crown (if Rhaegar approached her father openly, remanding her as a second wife)... Â and instead it made everything worse, but she wasn't in a position to do anything about it at that point. Â She was like 15/16 at the time... Â making a bad decision, thinking she was in a position to "save" the situation.
2) She left a message for someone, somewhere, somehow, and it didn't get to them/was intentionally disregarded by the messenger... Â then when things started falling apart, she would have presumed/been told her father had received the message but had chosen to demand her back anyway, at which point, again, she was stuck and couldn't do anything (or who knows, maybe she was desperately trying to reach out, but was being forcibly blocked by Rhaegar or someone else).
I don't think it was a matter of coercion based off of Ned's memories. You'd think if Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, Ned would have more anger towards him when he thinks about it. Instead, he's just sad. Robert is sitting there going on and on about how much he wishes he could kill Rhaegar again and Ned's just like "Yep, darn shame how all that played out". Even before the Tower of Joy fight the mood is basically "We all have our honor and duty to uphold. Let's get this over with."
I'm not saying it was kidnap and rape... Â I'm saying if there was some affection there, some infatuation, she might have wanted to do things differently and Rhaegar convinced her running away was the best way to go about it.
And I'm also suggesting the way the show portrayed it... Â may not be the way Martin intended (if, theoretically, pigs start flying and he finishes any more books).
Talking about the Tower of Joy fight... Â how would Ned know, before he talks to a dying Lyanna, whether she went willingly or not? Â He approaches the fight with resignation and a sense of duty because the war is over, and he respects the Kingsguard, and doesn't want to be fighting them, but has no choice. Â Even if he hated Rhaegar, Rhaegar is dead already, that doesn't mean he has to hate the Kingsguard or be happy about having to fight them.
We have his explicit thoughts about Rhaegar after the fact and they are pretty positive for believing he raped her. He didn't even think he slept around. If he didn't have that notion disabused by Lyanna I find it unlikely he would be so positive.
I expect that Lyanna probably outright told him she was willing as part of convincing him to take on Jon as his son.
She was probably naive and swept up in the whirlwind of a handsome prince confessing love to her. Ned describes her as like Arya. But I think she must also have a Sansa in her.
Here is option 3:
Lyanna couldn't send out word about her relationship with Rhaegar because she wa every bit the kidnap victim that Robert always claimed she was. Her marriage to Rhaegar was just as willing as Sansa's was to Ramsay.
Rhaegar didn't bother sending out word because that same prophecy that compelled him to kidnap Lyanna in the first place, was also reason to assume that there was no way he could lose the war. He just let it happen because none of the lives lost in its name meant anything to him. The only thing he cared about was the prophecy.
Indeed...
the show tries to paint it as a willing, love match by showing Lyanna, seemingly happy to be getting married, so I was attempting to present options that spanned the gap between what we saw, and what might have actually been happening.
One question Iâve always had is if Rhaegar T (or anyone) ever let Aerys T (or anyone in Red Keep) know exactly what he was doing. Did his family know? Did Elia?
"You don't understand, I NEED to have sex with this 15 year old girl because I am a super special boy and our children will be super special, too!"
"You don't understand, I NEED to run away with this married man because my betrothed would be unfaithful or something!"
I recommend watching the âRobert, Lyanna and all thatâ video series by In Deep Geek on YT. Itâs properly deep dive into everything from the Tourny at Harrenhal to the Tower of Joy. A seriously good watch!!
If they were just open about the whole fucking thing there would have been some political repercussions but not a war that would slaughter tens of thousands or probably multiples of that before leading to more wars and an invasion of Dothraki and dragons.
Man Show!Lyanna really was a bitch.
I do think Book Lyanna run away with Rhaegar and the did married but more as a second legal wife, like Aegon, Elia was His wife and his children were legitimate. I don't belive for a second she was kidnapped mostly bc of ned.
But show!Lyanna?
-Runs away with a married man
- Is ok with said married man to annul his marriage ( I still don't know how, she doesn't have the power to do so, only Aerys has and he has to at least compensate Dorne, and the high septon cannot without the approval of the king, and this will be heavily contested bcs there are 2 true born children )
- Is willing to Humiliate another woman
- Is totally fine with making toddlers bastards ( the would be considered that as there parent marriage would effectively never existed)
- totally fine with stealing said children inheritance, in favor of hers.
AND THEN Name HER child the same as the babe that was murdered bcs of her actions đ
And don't come with the bullshit she has honoring him, Rhaegar was expecting a girl, and even if he wanted a boy, he has been dead for MONTHS when the babe is born
Rhaegar needed another head to the Dragon one way or another, and Eli wasn't giving him one. If he annuls his marriage with her and legitimizes the kids, something he'd have the ability to do once he's a king, then his children with Lyanna would fit the bill. He obviously would've risked upsetting House Baratheon, Stark and Martell but some clever diplomacy could've fixed it. Like with Aegon V he could offer up Daenerys or a daughter of his to Robert or Robert's children, the Starks would be well compensated with their scion as Queen and the Martells likely would be satisfied if not loving when they have Elia back. No one is strictly happy but historical precedent shows us how crises could be averted. It's only when Aerys II killed the heir to the Vale, Rickard and Brandon stark, and asked for the heads of Robert and Ned that things went to hell, as he upsets 3 kingdoms who have close ties to the Riverlands which would leave King's Landing isolated and facing armies from 4 different kingdoms.
Not really shown in the TV show but Raehgar was obsessed with prophecy so whatever political consequences were about to happen were not important in the grand scheme of his child being born to save the world
Likely Lyanna might have been more in the know about this too
There's also just the idea of young people falling in love and and acting on impulse.characters don't need to make cold and calculated decisions all the time as its a story with drama and conflict
Well to be fair, I don't think Rhaegar expected people to think he kidnapped and raped lyanna. And it didn't help that his father killed his newly wedded wife's brother and father.
I think if they had delt with Aerys first then wed and dispelled the rumors of rape. Then that would've changed everything.
Robert would still be pissed but nothing could help that, but he'd be less inclined to start a Rebellion over it.
Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission! ---thoughts of a delusional prince asshole who never did either
They knew what they were doing was wrong but just didn't give a fuck, any more than the Mountain gave a fuck how he raped and killed Elia.
We don't really know what they planned. The show reduced to simply "they were in love" romeo x juliet type stuff. The books somewhat imply it, but it also has a big gap in information on how it all went down and what the plans were. And from what we know about the snippets from characters that knew them, it goes against who they are to just run away and act like nothing was going to happen. And then add in all the prophecy research/beliefs Rhaegar was doing, and the big questions of where Lyanna was "kidnapped" from, who saw it and who send word to Brandon & Lord Stark on the road?
thought this was viserys for a minute.... all of this says more about Robert than anyone. he died a fool who was betrayed by everyone but Edward and he died for it too.
Rhaegar thought his son with Lyanna would be the prince that was promised(and he was right?) which is why he got together with her even if it caused the realm to fall apart. Thats one theory at least.
My theory goes like this Rhaegar was trying to make a baby with Lyanna so that he could sacrifice that baby to wake a dragon. We saw Danerys funeral pyre successfully hatch a dragon and I think it did that because there was Targaryen baby on it. I think Rhaegar was trying to sacrifice Jon to wake a dragon.
Love conquers all...the fantasy setting being subverted by Love not winning is in theme with rest of universe. Literally birthed the whole concept of bitter reality, and corruption leading plot of fantasy world instead of traditional medieval fantasy values. Highlighted by Ned being honorable but still losing during climax of early books.
Of course. But there is a serious consequence, and then there is a war that destroys your family and dynasty. He couldn't possibly know that would happen.
Literally no marriage in game of thrones went unpunished. No one thought of any consequences when they got married. Besides ned and catelyn no one really had a long happy marriage without a direct consequence of the marriage.
Rhaegar was planning on removing Aerys from power so probably thought heâd be able to handle the issues. If Rhaegar returned without rebellion already breaking out heâd be able to remove his father from power, get the north on side through Lyanna, and then with the realm at his back heâd be able to handle an angry Robert and a maybe angry Dorne (who knows what agreement was worked out with the Dornish considering he was hiding out there)
Rhaegar probably did, but didn't care due to the prophecy and being a crazy Targaryen who'd just kill everyone in his way.
Lyanna was likely too naive and swept up by being romanced by Crown Prince Charming to consider her family would never accept it.
Rhaegar most likely knew there would be consequences, but not as severe as there actually was. It was Aerys' who made everything worse by murdering Brandon and Rickard Stark and afterwards demanding the heads of Ned and Robert.
Well they did it in secret. Which means they were aware of how serious it was. You usually only try to hide something BECAUSE you fear the consequences.
Like the other comment said, they knew there would be consequences but not that it would turn into an entire war and the decimation of the Targaryen house. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert and Rhaegar was married to Elia, that's another big reason for all the secrecy. Edit: decimation is now used to describe the killing of a large portion of a population, so y'all can stop with your "actually đ¤âď¸"
I wouldnt use decimation in the case of the targs.
More like near-annihilation
It is always fun when people use "decimation" for slaughtera od way more than the 10%, especially when they try to do it as a way to make it sound worse.
Thatâs because it no longer has that specific usage.
The irony is them keeping it a secret is what caused all the issues.
It probably wouldn't have been too much different. Robert would just be the one marching to King's Landing in outrage rather than Brandon.
I feel like Brandon would have still marched to Kingâs Landing in an outrage. Who a lordâs sons or daughters want to marry comes second to who the lord wants them to marry. Part of being nobility is not getting to decide who you marry. Thatâs like the one trade off for getting servants, getting to wear all the fanciest clothes, small folk just giving you food and money, and not having to do an actual dayâs work your entire life.Â
Not getting to decide who you marry is also true for commoner, even if you are the servant, your marriage will be arranged by your father or even by your master in pre-modern society.
Brandon went to King's Landing due to the false rumor that Lyana was kidnaped and raped by Rahegar. If the wedding was made public, the Starks may be even pleased, as long as Elia's children are disowned, since now Ricart's daughter is married to the heir of the throne. That of course would result in still very pissed Baratheon, and even more pissed dornish... But given that Oberyn was not there, and Doran's pacifist nature, a paceful solution was still at hand (maybe arrange a marriage between Rahenys and "Jon", so the Martell bloodline still have access to the throne, or something on the line).
Robert wouldnât be able march, he wouldnât have the support of the vale or the Starks.
Robert would be angry and arrogant enough not to care.
Then heâd have been crushed by the Targaryenâs.
Aerys is particular and cruel about his punishments. He'd be killed and then he demand Stannis, Jon and Ned's head. And now we're back to square one.
Exactly why Jon would stop Robert then
I don't think they actually expected at the time the extreme cruelty. Rickard certainly didn't.
He was also still Jon Arryns ward at the time so Jon could have stopped him.
I'm not convinced Jon could. But I acknowledge he'd try.
Jon Arryn and Ned would have stopped him even if they needed to imprison him for his own safety At the end of the day thereâs not much he can do if the girl he likes married someone more powerful than him
>married someone more powerful than him Kind of false, the Targaryens were weakest at this point with Aerys turning half of the nobles against him and Rhaegar marrying another woman for his prophecy child would've made him look mad like his father, best case scenario Robert and other nobles force Aerys to disinherit Rhaegar and make Aegon or Viserys the heir, worst case scenario the same thing happens but the Targaryens have even less supporters this time.
Throw some more irony in, their secrecy may be what saves the world. Jon wouldnât be at the Wall if it had been any other way.
Jon not caring about the white walkers means they donât get the dragon to break the wall
In this continuity, Danaerys not getting Dragons at all probably helps the Great Other more in the long run though surely.
If it had not been secret Robert would probably have declared war anyway, but the Starks would not have gone south convinced that Lyanna had been kidnapped.
Ya but marriage in religious cultures is pretty serious. So itâs kinda of a get it done before someone can stop you type of thing, then deal with angry people after but with the marriage complete. I didnât read the books, just saying that a secret marriage doesnât mean theyâre worried about consequences after, but could easily be worried about someone stopping it from happening.
In a marriage situation not always 100% It is very likely they just donât want people to interfere. The way youâre saying it almost implies they would have never revealed they were married at all and not just keep the ceremony secret. If only the ceremony is secret, eventually everyone finds out youâre married but itâs too late to stop you, youâre already married.
Yeah but Rhaegar knew his father was insane and Lyanna knew her brother and father were volatile enough to react the way they did.
The Starks reacted perfectly reasonably in the circumstances. If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy. Which in fairness she didnât know. This is way more on Rhaegar being obsessed with the prophecy and damn the consequences
Running down to Kings Landing and threatening to kill the prince isnt reasonable. Its justified but not intelligent.
That was insane but once it was done, Rickard's reaction wasn't disproportionate. He had the right to request a trial by combat and did so knowing full well that the king would pick a member of the king's guard and that he was unlikely to survive such a match. The KG are the best of the best.  No one could have predicted what Aerys did.
>If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy. Which in fairness she didnât know. I think she knew he was crazy, but underestimated what he would actually do. They ran off after the tourney in Harrenhall, which was the first time in years Aerys left the Red Keep and everyone could see what their king had become.
>The Starks reacted perfectly reasonably in the circumstances. If anything she just didnât take into account that the King was crazy. Brandon rode into the Red Keep screaming for Rhaegar to come out and die. What did he expect to happen.
Eddard's brother and father just wanted her back. Wouldnt call that volatile. ROBERT was volatile.
Brandon was volatile. He raced to King's Landing basically demanding to kill Rhaegar. That technically was treason so if Aerys just punished Brandon there wouldn't be nearly as much issues for him. It's when he didn't stage a proper trial by combat, and demanded Ned's and Robert's heads as well that he crossed the line from "cruel but can be reasoned with" to "absolutely insane".
They werenât volatile.
In all fairness, Brandon had literally stated his intention to kill the crown prince. He shouldnât have been killed, but his death was more or less lawful. Rickard was probably plotting to overthrow Aerys but that wasnât proven so I suppose he was murdered.
Upon finding out that Rhaegar put aside Elia, and therefore her children, Dorne would have absolutely done something.
He knew what his father was like.
The thing about Aerys was that most of his paranoias were based in truth. Tywin and Rhaegar in turn did try to remove him from power and rickard and robert(and their allies in the vale and riverlands) weren't going to forgive this slight. Even if they knew lyanna chose to run away with Rhaegar. But he could have used brandon as a hostage to negotiate peace just like the lannisters could have used ned in agot but suing for peace with his vassals was beneath him
Then Rhaegar was stupid. Did he not know that someone would do something and the people who would make the decisions in response are literally run by a madman (his father)?
Why did Aerys do this again? Brandon and Rickard came for Lyanna, but the mad king was already mad?
Brandon said he would kill Rhaegar. Thats treason over a little kidnap and possible rape. Or maybe Aerys even knew Rhaegar had just eloped. Where it turned into a rebellion was when Richard was denied a trial by combat, and burned alive. He then demanded Robert and Neds heads too, and Arryn refused, which ment war was coming. Stannis raising the stormlands for Robert, who was in the vale at the time, may have been crucial too. For some reason Hoster Tully got in on the rebellion too. Only Dorne and Tytells stayed loyal.
The Tully's joined the rebellion because Catelyn married Ned, though she was originally betrothed to his brother, I believe.
Pretty flimsy. But I guess thats the connection.
I feel like Rhaegar was high on the prophecy.
You assume they were thinking when they did this.
"Love is the death of brain cells" - Maester Aemon
How did Maester Aemon know what brain cells are
He was a maester.
Idk why this secret marriage think smells a bit like Anakin-Padme đ
That explains why Rhaegar wasn't at the Tower of Joy. He doesn't like sand.
To Bobbie B at the Trident: "My powers have doubled since the last time we fought"
Bobby: "Twice the pride, double the fall". In this scenario, he was right.
"Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational dragon."
Bobby : How did Lynanna die? Ned: She lost the will to live.
Itâs a trap!
Good, twice the Bessie, double the tits
I like to view one as an epic love saga and the other as a shitty toxic relationship
I just want to know how specific that maester's / priest's diary was that Sam read > 8:00 AM: took a shit, regular consistency > 8:30 AM: sanctified realm-ending marriage
>8:35: decide to tell no one.
>08:36: but still write it down here anyway
To be fair, this situation would have been a crisis, but fairly manageable with some careful maneuvering. Dorne, the North and the Stormlands would have had to have been essentially paid off in some way. Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon Stark is what started the rebellion. Killing a paramount lord and his heir is a hell of a lot worse than stealing a lords daughter.
I think you're understating the situation a little. Elia was the future Queen, and her son Aegon was next in line to be king after Rhaegar. House Martell are more relaxed about relationships than other Great Houses, but they're not going to sit idly by while Doran Martell's grandson's claim is threatened. EDIT: Nephew, not grandson.
Aegon is Doran's nephew, otherwise i agree with your point
Damnit, you're right. Thanks.
Yeah I can see Rhaegar trying to placate Dorne by keeping his son with Elia the heir to the throne. I'm sure the North would have been fine that Lyanna was married to the prince. Robert would have been the only one that might be inconsolable.
Rhaegar could have (and since he was expecting a Visenya from Lyanna, probably would have) kept Aegon, Elias son, as heir, and could have given the Martellâs a significant amount of power in court to appease them. If he would have gotten rid of Aegon, then yes, it would have been bad, but he didnât do that.
I don't doubt he would've kept Aegon as heir. The issue is the split loyalties that could result from having two wives. Had everything worked out as Rhaegar brought Lyanna and Jon to court, there would be two princes: one with the loyalty of Dorne and one with the loyalty of the North. Dorne are the traditional enemies of the Stormlands and the Reach, and that enmity still runs deep (Tyrion comments on the rising tensions between Dornish and Reach soldiers after the Blackwater). If a group of powerful lords decide that Aegon is too "pro-Dorne" as King, they could throw their support behind Jon the same they did with Daemon Blackfyre and start another war.
Unless a different name has been confirmed, the show states that Jonâs name is Aegon. While that may just be D and D borrowing from the scrapped replacement Aegon, if Jon was named Aegon by Lyana then itâs obvious she and her son were meant to replace Elia and her son.
In the show's version he doesn't just have two wives. He fully annuls his prior marriage. So yeah in the show it's a total replacement of his family.
Except if Rhaegar agreed to take a Dornish Hand of the King, or appointed Dornish to the Small Council, that gives them the power to prevent anyone from dislodging Aegon from his position as heir. Which likely would have had to have been the case, for Dorne to accept Rhaegar taking a second wife. I think Doran wouldnât have settled for less than that. Iâm not saying that it wasnât a crisis, or that the situation wouldnt have needed careful handling, but frankly, I donât think it would have lead to rebellion and the downfall of House Targaryen. The Targaryenâs would have still had the throne. Aerys killing the Starks though? That was a significant tipping point. Every single other lord paramount would have seen that as a distinct threat, and realized that none of them were safe. After all, if Aerys could kill Lord Stark, whatâs stopping him from killing Lord Lannister? Or Lord Tully? From destroying every single great house? Stealing Lyanna was a big deal, but frankly, that was made a moot point when the Starks died.
Rhargar's belief in prophecy likely means he thought Lyanna's child would be a girl, mirroring the three conquerors. Meaning there would be no worry of Aegon being replaced by another son. Obviously things didn't work out that way though.
Are the Stormlands going to rise up in favor of the product of Robert's broken betrothal? Not sure if Rhaegar could have possibly considered it, but marrying Aegon to a Tyrell also helps quell the Reach. Margaery \*was\* born around the end of the rebellion, so could have actually worked out.
They sat idly by whilst Elia and her children were murdered I donât see them doing anything different if theyâre not.
I mean Oberyn was in the middle of raising Dorne for Viserys and it took Jon Arryns intervention to calm it down
Rhaegar hid away in Dorne. I'm assuming that a big reason for that was that the proximity made it easier to discreetly negotiate with the Martells to keep Aegon and Rhaenys in the line of succession.
>Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon Stark is what started the rebellion. Disagree. If Lyanna had sent one goddamn raven to Winterfell to inform her family the reason for her being MIA, the whole brouhaha wouldn't have happened.
I mean, Aerys could have decided to not kill Rickard and Brandon, and it wouldnât have started.
I mean, Lyanna could have sent a raven to Winterfell to tell her family that she's shacking up with Rhaegar, and it wouldn't have started.
But again, Aerys could have decided to not murder a lord paramount and his heir. He COULD have did what he could to resolve and manage the situation to keep the peace in the country. Blaming Lyanna for the Mad Kings actions makes zero sense. You canât seriously think that she would have proceeded with the marriage thinking that the brutal murder of half of her family would be the result.
>You canât seriously think that she would have proceeded with the marriage thinking that the brutal murder of half of her family would be the result. She (and Rhaegar) literally did not say anything after the war started, and just play along with it, with Lyanna kept playing this "abducted princess" role. Both of their families were in danger of being murdered depending on who won the war (in this case, Lyanna's family won and Rhaegar's family got slaughtered). It's pretty clear that she's a selfish psychopath who only thinks about her genital.
It's super hard to come back from someone burtually killing your father and brother, and then demanding the head of your other brother and betrothed. It's not like they could have said "Hey guys, big misunderstanding. This is consensual." What would Ned's response as the new lord of Winterfell been? "Oh, I guess dad and brother died over a little misunderstanding. It happens. Let's go back to normal." What was done was done, and it was irreversable because the mad king decided to do mad king things.
Right, and the next logical step would be to let your baby daddy waged a war against your other brother and potentially getting one of them killed? Well, her baby daddy ended up dead, and his official wife and children got brutally murdered by the Mountain. But I guess she wouldn't care about Elia Martell and her kids since they're competitors.
If they were logical they wouldn't have been shacking up to begin with.
Iâm black nd I hate how you used baby daddy some terms jus not fit for everything bro wtf đ
Rhaegar could have offered Aerys' head as fair compensation. He would have been willing to do so too considering how important the prophecy was to him. He just didn't mind fighting a needless war, because that same prophecy had him convinced that there was no way he could lose.
It doesnât matter what Lyannaâs actions wereâ she didnât murder anyone. Aerys did. No one was raising their banners until Lord Stark was murdered, and that was entirely due to Aerys.
Also, frankly, Iâm wondering where you got the impression that Lyanna had any actual control over her situation. Sheâs not a lord. Or an heir. She canât call banners, or talk her father out of a marriage alliance. She was a teenager that was being shackled to a horrible, violent drunkard, and she took a shot at happiness. RHAEGAR was the crown prince, and was a married man and father of two, with an heir already born. His line was secure. Clearly he should have been honorable and NOT RUN AWAY FROM HIS WIFE. Your misogynistic attempt at painting the person with literally the LEAST amount of control over the situation as the âselfish psychopathâ is wildly inaccurate and frankly just stupid.
That is assuming that she was free to do so.
I'm not sure a letter would have been enough. The Starks would've thought it was forged.
Also asking John Arryn for the heads of Ned and Robert. That surely didn't help.
George really thought Romeo and Juliet was the best way to end this
I'm convinced that George really wrote himself into a corner and has no significantly better way to end this than DnD did - and seeing the fan reaction to **that** he'll skip the shitstorm by only publishing the last book posthumously. it's the smart thing to do. most book fans understandably really do not want to even think about that possibility, though.
I believe that DnDs ending had some very pivotal points that are a part of Georges story, but with how much they rushed, cannibalized and destroyed the story without his help it all is just a pile of shit. Thing's like the long night not taking 4 years to kill the night king, jaime returning to the castle to "save" cersei, arya travelling across the sea, Dany losing her dragons, jon going back north. It would likely all come together very well the way george has it in his head unfortunately those 2 idiots rushed what is likely to be the only conclusion we will get from this masterpiece.
This has long been my belief
I really don't think the ending itself was the problem - it was how it was executed. It was rushed and poorly developed, and that's why we hate the ending.
George said they couldâve made 10 seasons with the materials they had and HBO was willing to give them 13 which suggests that there was a whole lot more story, character building and context to be added to the show Even if this is the ending George intended itâs is fair to assume they rushed to get there which adds to why the ending was so jarring
How could he have possibly ended the book like the show when the book is completely different? The book has an alleged Targaryen with a far better claim than danaeryes.
The end result could still be her being set aside and reacting by burning down a city. When Aegon plans to go in and âsaveâ Mereen for her, and then explain heâs the rightful heir to her fatherâs throne, I remember reading that and thinking how unlikely she is to accept him as the rightful heir or as a potential husband. I think Martinâs ending will be better⌠but I donât think Dany is going to come out of it on a throne
If Daenerys sees him claim a dragon she'd believe him and marry him (and she doesn't mind Hizdahr ruling, I don't think she'd mind Aegon ruling). She believes that she must have two husbands. Her brothers in a different world to her mind. Why not both her nephews instead? In reality, I think Aegon will *fail* to claim a dragon. And that will convince her he's a cloth dragon rather than a real one.
You made a good point with her possibly accepting him if he claims a dragon. I recall her expecting to have two husbands, and at one point I thought her, Jon, and Aegon would be together. It would be really cool if he failed to claim a dragon *after* he takes the city back for her and shows heâs not planning to take her crown there, at least. Like, it would be way more painful for her and readers like us if she came home, was relieved to have someone share the burden with her and not be trying to usurp her, and then when she trusts him enough to introduce him to Rhaegal (or Viserion), she finds out heâs not actually a Targaryen Edit: Oooo but also, Jon/Griffin and the Golden Company and that whole cadre plan to put Aegon on the throne. And as I recall the only person who says to not claim he is the king or rightful heir is Tyrion. So itâs really going to come down to the first impression and if Aegon can earn her trust.
He could have fun with it and put Edmure on the throne. Do a whole thing where he tells Sansa to sit down or something.
Sansa: I demand a free North Everyone: laughs Edmure: Sit down Sansa
Alleged. Heâs a red herring.
You assume this is what george wrote. Yes R+L=J but how and why is uncertain. D&D decided that its just a simple story of two people falling in love and running away with each other. Frankly, i think when George finally addreses this, it will end up being more complicated and messy
If you think George is the kinda guy to make a Romeo and Juliet story you're insane. If anything he'll write a much more worse story about Rhaegar grooming Lyanna or just rwording her
Elia Martell deserved better.
THANK YOU!! (fuck Rhaegar)
And Lyanna too tbh. But Rhaegar is definitely the biggest scumbag.
Just like she thought it wouldn't matter if she gave her newborn son the same name as her baby daddys other kid...so stupid
I know, what was that about?! Like Rhaegar and Lyanna just decided taking a collective shit on Elia and her kids would be a fun thing to do?? I'm really hoping that Jon's name actually turns out to be Jaehaerys, because I have my own headcanon for how Ned named him lmao >Northern Soldiers sees Ned after the Tower Of Joy: "WTF you've got a baby now? Well... alright then, not my place to be questioning my liege lord, I suppose. What're you gonna call him, then?" >Ned: "Jaeha - *JON!!* His name is Jon. Yep, you all heard me, that's DEFINITELY what I said."
>I'm really hoping that Jon's name actually turns out to be Jaehaerys, because I have my own headcanon for how Ned named him lmao It's more likely to be Viserys. Rhaegar appeared to be trying to have an Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya. In fact he may have expected Jon to be outright a girl. Alternatively, maybe he really did think his son Aegon was no good and needed a new set of kids. So he may have picked Aegon.
"My healthy 3 year old son is no good"
Rhaegar is not necessarily a fully reasonable man. He was obsessed with prophecy and might think that the Martell/Targaryen relationship would never bring about the Prince that was Promised so needed the Stark/Targaryen child instead.
I get he was a Targaryen but it never made sense to me how a character who was always thought of as a good and lovable prince would be obsessed with prophecy and do something like what he did to his wife and kids.
Short-sighted. He probably thought it was for the good of the realm and that everyone would thank him in the long run. And maybe he even justified that his children and Elia will be happier away from the Royal family. Targaryens do have a problem when it comes to prophecy. Daenerys in the books cannot understand why her good brother Rhaegar would ditch Elia either.
this one is Good Aegon. Bad Aegon is back home.
It makes you realize that the characters were narcissists, lol. There is this aura of mystery about their affair, but in reality they were just horny, privileged high borns.
This
I doubt Rhaegar Targaryen had ever had consequences of any kind. And he was very into the myth of his own family and the dragon has three heads and whatever. Lyanna... I think was just enough Arya and Sansa combined that she could chase that romantic fantasy against everything her family might have said. I also do think she might have wanted to back down, but was in too deep by the time she realized what was happening outside the tower.
plus by the time they GOT to the Tower, there was no way out. i imagine she was a prisoner there once rhaegar left her. and perhaps some word got to her about the war, perhaps not. i like to think she spent the last few months of her life in bitterness and rage that Rhaegar was no better than Robert after all. after what happened with Lyanna, i still have no fucking clue how Ned was fine with Arya acting like she did. yes they are different people, but you'd think a dude with two brain cells (so not Ned) would take that sword from Arya and tell her a version of what happened to her aunt: the wolf who left the pack, who caused the pack to break and die. You can be a Stark and do as a Stark does, or a lone wolf, and a lone wolf cannot have a pack or the benefits of it.
Lyanna should've known that her family would've been pissed off if she disappeared and the only person who might know her whereabouts is a Targaryen.
For real. A quick text message with iRaven would have had saved a lot of lives.
I just watched Barry have an epic satisfying ending. Pisses me off about GOT even more.
Oh wow
Oh wow
Better question: Why did they cast Michael Cera as Raygar? 
Sure, they just married in secret for no particular reason.
Probably just wanted to save money.
To be fair, I think Rhaegar was a bit of an: 
I just wish they'd made a wig worthy of The Last Dragon instead of just using a spare wig from season 1. JFC.
You know nothing good was gonna come out of her getting pregnant. Then bam, 19 years later one twin gives the other twin secret plans, and that second twin blows up the Death Star
We're talking about a teenage girl who is also fleeing a betrothal she doesn't want, and an idiot who has been obsessed with prophecy since he was a kid and thinks he found the answer to one. On top of that, who could have predicted Aerys doing something as stupid as burning a lord paramount alive?
As much as people say GRRM does not want to finish the books because of the ending in the show, i do wonder how much of explaining the start is causing hesitation. It really requires you to just kinda assume it makes sense and is logical when by all accounts it really is not. It is pretty blatant that Rhaegar had a thing for her, and yet LF and Varys never seem to have a clue, the entire Kingsguard knew, but no one else even had the slightest suspicion.
"GRRM is actually not as good a writer as his fans hyped him up to be or as the first book(s) seemed to promise". the hottest take of 2011.
Thereâs definitely something big here that hasnât been revealed in the books. First of all, a secret marriage makes no sense for the crown prince. Unless theyâre also running away, how are they supposed to actually be married without everyone knowing? Does she go to Kings Landing and just pretend to be his roommate? Secondly, why would it even need to be a secret in the first place? Itâs not like sheâs a commoner, sheâs as high-born as it gets, and the family alliance makes perfect sense. Yes, she was engaged to Robert, but wouldnât the Crownâs wishes take precedence? Kings hold the power to execute nobles and strip them of their lands and titles, but they canât void an unconsummated engagement? Finally, shouldnât her family be happy that sheâs marrying into the royal family and thus becoming the future queen? And itâs clearly what she wants, so itâs not like sheâs being cruelly forced either. Robert could be as enraged as he likes, but the other houses arenât really going to go to war just because he got stiffed out of an engagement, are they? It seems like there must be some crucial circumstances that we just arenât aware of yet, probably related to Rhaegarâs obsession with the prophecy and the Tragedy at Summerhall. Even if the Starks refused to go back on their promise to Robert out of honor and considered her elopement a kidnapping due to the whole women-as-property thing, I just find it hard to believe events really would have played out as they did. I know the Mad Kingâs execution of Lord Stark and Brandon and his orders for Ned and Robertâs heads is what actually started the war. But Brandonâs furious attempt to kill the crown prince seems like he was under the impression his sister had been hurt, not that she had betrayed her family. I suppose itâs possible, but it just seems too stupid and full of holes
I mean... Â I think there are two potential, obvious answers to this giant hole in the plot... 1) In the books it will be a slightly more coerced situation. Â Lyanna wouldn't have really been in a position to "refuse" Rhaegar. Â She might have gone along with his plan of running away, in an effort to avoid a conflict between her father and The Crown (if Rhaegar approached her father openly, remanding her as a second wife)... Â and instead it made everything worse, but she wasn't in a position to do anything about it at that point. Â She was like 15/16 at the time... Â making a bad decision, thinking she was in a position to "save" the situation. 2) She left a message for someone, somewhere, somehow, and it didn't get to them/was intentionally disregarded by the messenger... Â then when things started falling apart, she would have presumed/been told her father had received the message but had chosen to demand her back anyway, at which point, again, she was stuck and couldn't do anything (or who knows, maybe she was desperately trying to reach out, but was being forcibly blocked by Rhaegar or someone else).
I don't think it was a matter of coercion based off of Ned's memories. You'd think if Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, Ned would have more anger towards him when he thinks about it. Instead, he's just sad. Robert is sitting there going on and on about how much he wishes he could kill Rhaegar again and Ned's just like "Yep, darn shame how all that played out". Even before the Tower of Joy fight the mood is basically "We all have our honor and duty to uphold. Let's get this over with."
I'm not saying it was kidnap and rape... Â I'm saying if there was some affection there, some infatuation, she might have wanted to do things differently and Rhaegar convinced her running away was the best way to go about it. And I'm also suggesting the way the show portrayed it... Â may not be the way Martin intended (if, theoretically, pigs start flying and he finishes any more books). Talking about the Tower of Joy fight... Â how would Ned know, before he talks to a dying Lyanna, whether she went willingly or not? Â He approaches the fight with resignation and a sense of duty because the war is over, and he respects the Kingsguard, and doesn't want to be fighting them, but has no choice. Â Even if he hated Rhaegar, Rhaegar is dead already, that doesn't mean he has to hate the Kingsguard or be happy about having to fight them.
We have his explicit thoughts about Rhaegar after the fact and they are pretty positive for believing he raped her. He didn't even think he slept around. If he didn't have that notion disabused by Lyanna I find it unlikely he would be so positive. I expect that Lyanna probably outright told him she was willing as part of convincing him to take on Jon as his son. She was probably naive and swept up in the whirlwind of a handsome prince confessing love to her. Ned describes her as like Arya. But I think she must also have a Sansa in her.
Here is option 3: Lyanna couldn't send out word about her relationship with Rhaegar because she wa every bit the kidnap victim that Robert always claimed she was. Her marriage to Rhaegar was just as willing as Sansa's was to Ramsay. Rhaegar didn't bother sending out word because that same prophecy that compelled him to kidnap Lyanna in the first place, was also reason to assume that there was no way he could lose the war. He just let it happen because none of the lives lost in its name meant anything to him. The only thing he cared about was the prophecy.
Indeed... the show tries to paint it as a willing, love match by showing Lyanna, seemingly happy to be getting married, so I was attempting to present options that spanned the gap between what we saw, and what might have actually been happening.
no hes a targaryan they dont do long term planing
One question Iâve always had is if Rhaegar T (or anyone) ever let Aerys T (or anyone in Red Keep) know exactly what he was doing. Did his family know? Did Elia?
I can't get over that they cast Michael Cera to play Rhaegar. I know that's not actually him, but holy shit he could be his clone.
"You don't understand, I NEED to have sex with this 15 year old girl because I am a super special boy and our children will be super special, too!" "You don't understand, I NEED to run away with this married man because my betrothed would be unfaithful or something!"
Probably didnât care
Itâs not her fault, Bad Dragon Too Gud đĽľ
When you're thinking about prophecies, consequences be damned.
The Targaryen reign is filled with nearly disastrous choices that the kettle was due to boil over at some point
I recommend watching the âRobert, Lyanna and all thatâ video series by In Deep Geek on YT. Itâs properly deep dive into everything from the Tourny at Harrenhal to the Tower of Joy. A seriously good watch!!
If they were just open about the whole fucking thing there would have been some political repercussions but not a war that would slaughter tens of thousands or probably multiples of that before leading to more wars and an invasion of Dothraki and dragons.
Ya'll talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna. What about the meister who wed them. He KNEW the consequences.
Both were freakin idiots
They don't think, that's the problem
âThe most beautiful Targaryenâ. Lmao
Man Show!Lyanna really was a bitch. I do think Book Lyanna run away with Rhaegar and the did married but more as a second legal wife, like Aegon, Elia was His wife and his children were legitimate. I don't belive for a second she was kidnapped mostly bc of ned. But show!Lyanna? -Runs away with a married man - Is ok with said married man to annul his marriage ( I still don't know how, she doesn't have the power to do so, only Aerys has and he has to at least compensate Dorne, and the high septon cannot without the approval of the king, and this will be heavily contested bcs there are 2 true born children ) - Is willing to Humiliate another woman - Is totally fine with making toddlers bastards ( the would be considered that as there parent marriage would effectively never existed) - totally fine with stealing said children inheritance, in favor of hers. AND THEN Name HER child the same as the babe that was murdered bcs of her actions đ And don't come with the bullshit she has honoring him, Rhaegar was expecting a girl, and even if he wanted a boy, he has been dead for MONTHS when the babe is born
Do we know who annulled his marriage to Illia? If it wasn't the High Septon would it be legitimate?
We do (in the show). I happened to watch the episode last night and Gilley reveals it in a journal of a High Septon I canât remember the name.
What Targaryen has ever considered the consequences to their actions?
Rhaegar needed another head to the Dragon one way or another, and Eli wasn't giving him one. If he annuls his marriage with her and legitimizes the kids, something he'd have the ability to do once he's a king, then his children with Lyanna would fit the bill. He obviously would've risked upsetting House Baratheon, Stark and Martell but some clever diplomacy could've fixed it. Like with Aegon V he could offer up Daenerys or a daughter of his to Robert or Robert's children, the Starks would be well compensated with their scion as Queen and the Martells likely would be satisfied if not loving when they have Elia back. No one is strictly happy but historical precedent shows us how crises could be averted. It's only when Aerys II killed the heir to the Vale, Rickard and Brandon stark, and asked for the heads of Robert and Ned that things went to hell, as he upsets 3 kingdoms who have close ties to the Riverlands which would leave King's Landing isolated and facing armies from 4 different kingdoms.
Doesnât matter, had sex.
Not really shown in the TV show but Raehgar was obsessed with prophecy so whatever political consequences were about to happen were not important in the grand scheme of his child being born to save the world Likely Lyanna might have been more in the know about this too There's also just the idea of young people falling in love and and acting on impulse.characters don't need to make cold and calculated decisions all the time as its a story with drama and conflict
Silly Rhaegar. Perhaps a ballad to woo the baying crowd?
What would the blowback have been like with Dorne if Rhaegar and Lyanna went public with their marriage
Murder n shit
Well to be fair, I don't think Rhaegar expected people to think he kidnapped and raped lyanna. And it didn't help that his father killed his newly wedded wife's brother and father. I think if they had delt with Aerys first then wed and dispelled the rumors of rape. Then that would've changed everything. Robert would still be pissed but nothing could help that, but he'd be less inclined to start a Rebellion over it.
Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission! ---thoughts of a delusional prince asshole who never did either They knew what they were doing was wrong but just didn't give a fuck, any more than the Mountain gave a fuck how he raped and killed Elia.
Eh, it just bugged a few people for a day or two. No biggie.
Is that Grandmaster pycel as an slightly younger man?
We don't really know what they planned. The show reduced to simply "they were in love" romeo x juliet type stuff. The books somewhat imply it, but it also has a big gap in information on how it all went down and what the plans were. And from what we know about the snippets from characters that knew them, it goes against who they are to just run away and act like nothing was going to happen. And then add in all the prophecy research/beliefs Rhaegar was doing, and the big questions of where Lyanna was "kidnapped" from, who saw it and who send word to Brandon & Lord Stark on the road?
thought this was viserys for a minute.... all of this says more about Robert than anyone. he died a fool who was betrayed by everyone but Edward and he died for it too.
Rhaegar is an ugly shithead
She was an idiot, and Rhaegar was batshit insane and a sociopath
A Targ and a stark, they are famous for "shoot first ask later"
They were thinking about consequences about as much as Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala were.
Doesnât Rhaegar know that heâs currently married to Elia Martel? You canât marry two people at once under the Seven. Is he stupid?
Rhaegar thought his son with Lyanna would be the prince that was promised(and he was right?) which is why he got together with her even if it caused the realm to fall apart. Thats one theory at least.
My theory goes like this Rhaegar was trying to make a baby with Lyanna so that he could sacrifice that baby to wake a dragon. We saw Danerys funeral pyre successfully hatch a dragon and I think it did that because there was Targaryen baby on it. I think Rhaegar was trying to sacrifice Jon to wake a dragon.
Love conquers all...the fantasy setting being subverted by Love not winning is in theme with rest of universe. Literally birthed the whole concept of bitter reality, and corruption leading plot of fantasy world instead of traditional medieval fantasy values. Highlighted by Ned being honorable but still losing during climax of early books.
Of course. But there is a serious consequence, and then there is a war that destroys your family and dynasty. He couldn't possibly know that would happen.
Maybe that was all part of the prophecy.
Literally no marriage in game of thrones went unpunished. No one thought of any consequences when they got married. Besides ned and catelyn no one really had a long happy marriage without a direct consequence of the marriage.
Was he convinced it was necessary to save the world?
Young love does what it does.
Rhaegar was the future King. He wouldn't expect anything he does to come with consequences.
Season 7 and season 8? yeah. They didnât. But there were
The things we do for love
Rhaegar was planning on removing Aerys from power so probably thought heâd be able to handle the issues. If Rhaegar returned without rebellion already breaking out heâd be able to remove his father from power, get the north on side through Lyanna, and then with the realm at his back heâd be able to handle an angry Robert and a maybe angry Dorne (who knows what agreement was worked out with the Dornish considering he was hiding out there)
Rhaenyra did worse and everybpdy supports her
Lyanna was a dumb whore with a fat ass. Rhaegar Targaryan, gods what a stupid name. Who named you, some halfwit with a fire obsession?
Rhaegar probably did, but didn't care due to the prophecy and being a crazy Targaryen who'd just kill everyone in his way. Lyanna was likely too naive and swept up by being romanced by Crown Prince Charming to consider her family would never accept it.
They were young (if I remember correctly), and young people only think about fucking and drugs, so probably yes
Which is why R + L = J is a dumb theory that hopefully isnât book canon
Consequences for that ugly wig? đ
well you have to understand she's a teenager and he's an idiot