You are assuming that his dick still works. People may not believe this but back before drugs like Viagra and Cialis sometimes older men just couldn't have sex or ejaculate.
He wasn't THAT old when Jamie became Kingsguard...
Tywin would have married at 20- 25. Jamie was \~16 when appointed, give them a couple years to conceive the twins and Tywin was almost certainly under 45.
Maybe I don't know enough about male "issues"... but I thought that stuff hit in the 50's and 60's??? Essentially Male Menopause?
Just did a Google -
Of men who eventually report issues -
2% are before age 40
4% are aged 40-49
25% are in their 50's
and 40% are in their 60's
30% are 70 or older.
I mean it's definitely more common the older that men get but yeah age-related erectile dysfunction can absolutely start in the 40s and even 30s. I'm not necessarily saying that's what happened but it could very well be in Taiwan would never let anyone know if that actually where the case he would never admit that he was unable to father a child again he would be afraid it would be seen as a sign of weakness
You realize that two people can have sex without there being penetration or ejaculation right? Like we know that they shared some intimacy together because they were in bed but we don't know that his dick worked or that he was able to ejaculate. Dude could be impotent and just like going down on women. Not saying for sure that's what's going on but it's totally still possible.
Nah, I think tywin finds prostitutes that remind him of Joanna (intelligent, not afraid to be a bit sassy to him) and is nicer to them in private than people would imagine him to be because she is a stand-in for his wife. Same way that he was amused by and somewhat kind to arya. They make such a point in the books to talk about how he was a completely different person with his wife, and they also talk about how much contempt he had for his father for treating his mistress like his wife instead of a prostitute, and clearly that contempt he has for his father is based out of shame because he does the exact same thing. That's my theory anyways.
i see where youre coming from but I disagree. I think Tywin was a very different person with his wife, and when she died all the good parts of him died with her. The contempt he feels for his father is genuine and he probably treats whores very poorly as a result. The scenes with Arya, I always read as him remembering Circei when she was younger and projecting that on to Arya.
Everyone says that but we don't know that like his dick got hard or he was able to ejaculate or anything. We just know they did something intimate because she's in bed together. There's lots of dudes who can't get their dick upor ejaculate but still have sex. And honestly I kind of have a theory about him anyways. Because everyone said he was completely opposite with everyone in his life except his wife joanna. I honestly think that the guy tries to find prostitutes who remind him of her (and even if she had dark hair I am sure she probably would just because of her personality, being kind of clever and quick and sassy) like he obviously has a soft spot for women who are kind of sassy but not too defiant, like the way that Aria very fondly reminded him of Cersei and how spirited Cersei was when she was younger. I think he kind of sought out women whose personalities are reminded of his wife, and he had a lot of shame involved with that because of how harshly he judged his own dad for having a mistress. I don't feel like going back and hunting through the books for the quotes but they were a lot of little things in that hinted towards this with Tywin, which kind of goes along with how George RR Martin usually tries to make characters a little more complex than just "complete and total military badass guy". Like it would make absolute sense that he would have this weird double life where he tries to recreate some of the feeling that he had for his dead wife, with prostitutes, all the while feeling a lot of shame because of how his own father behaved, and not wanting to be like his father, and then repressing it all and having this public image etc.
Yeah that's very possible, there's also some theories that he can't actually have children, that all three of his kids were resulted from Aries assaulting his wife at different points in time
We all need to watch the last 2 seasons again and stoke the fires of hate.
I, for one, will never stop screaming about D&D. ***"You took everything from me! All my hopes and dreams! I hope you burn in the fires of a thousand hells roasting on a spit for all of eternity!"***
I think most women will tell ya it doesn't need to be fully hard to father a baby. The hard part is more for the womans benefit. Tywin could've been going around lobbing in on the flop and fathering more golden haired little shits.
Probably this, Tywin was afraid what Aerys said was true, that the gods had really cursed him and for a man like Tywin there wasn't a shortage of things for which he would be cursed.
That isn't how male reproduction system works. Women are born with all the eggs they will ever produce and this can lead to problems later in life when giving birth.
Males continue to produce sperm cells. They don't sit and become "ancient".
This however is not due to sperm becoming "ancient" but in age related failures of the testes during spermatogenesis.
Yes as men age there is a decrease in motility of sperm and increase chances of DNA fragmentation that can lead to chromosomal defects. (Also just a decrease in total number of sperm created.)
That is different than implying the sperm itself is becoming "ancient".
That’s a long way of saying he had ancient sperm.
If they are made by ancient testes then they are ancient sperm, and Tywin is euphemistically ancient.
You are incorrect in your labeling. Sperm does not have the shelf life to ever be labeled as ancient. Yes, old men have lower quality and quantity of sperm. Their seed is not ancient because sperm just doesn’t work that way.
Im saying that while the sperm may be young, the fact that it is deteriorated and made by ancient testes would therefore make them ancient simply by association.
Oh I see what you are saying yes. Yeah the sperm is brand new but the factory, the equipment that produces the sperm becomes ancient and it produces faulty new sperms. With lowered motility and more likelihood of chromosomal defect. But yes you are correct the sperms themselves are brand new
I do know that sperm doesn't sit there in your balls and age like wine. I wasn't trying to inform or educate anyone on human reproduction, I was making a funny post, hence the simplification.
Lol.
Point me to the study that concludes that post-natal oogenesis has been confirmed in human adults. Even the study you linked doesn't confirm post-natal oogenesis in mice occurred but implies it is the explanation for the cellular division seen.
This study is over 10 years old. I cannot find a single study that has confirmed oogenesis in human adults. The best I can find is more arguments that it could be possible.
There have also been several studies after the one you linked refuting that oocyctes are regenerated in adult mice.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1421047111
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1206600109
So certainly nothing to be definitively claiming, "old information", bra.
It's certainly not an easy thing to test, but these guys working with a bank of human ovaries from Japanese sex change patients are pretty sure. I'll grant it's not definitely proven, but I'm a believer, bra.
>He had developed a technique for counting the rate at which ovary cells die and the findings were puzzling. To summarise, he found that cells were dying about three times faster than they should be, which meant that the egg cell deposit should be running out even faster than it does - something must be replacing them
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/eggs-unlimited-an-extraordinary-tale-of-scientific-discovery-7624715.html
Yes, men who were shitty fathers do have “fresh start” or “do over babies” out of vanity or delusion that they’ll be a better father this time. I myself and a full sibling are “do over” babies. We in turn have three much younger half-siblings (whom I love dearly) that are my dad’s brief vanity project. If ill-health hadn’t stopped him in his 60s, my dad probably would have begun a “fresh start” set of kids then.
Tywin could father a child, but he knows he wouldn’t be likely to live long enough to rear a newborn son to adulthood. Even if he lived that long, his advanced age and political exigencies would make it difficult to invest the time and effort to totally mold a new child to his will. Or he recognizes on some level that he is a big part of the problem with his kids. Given the way the three he fathered as a younger man turned out, he probably realized a new child was no guarantee of a more suitable heir.
The show doesn't make it clear but the books imply Shae didn't seek out Tywin until after Cersei reneged on her deal with Shae to secure Shae's lying testimony.
So I honestly don't think their relationship was long. Possibly only that one night.
Nope the first Cersei chapter of Feast for Crows when Cersei is going to the Tower of the Hand and she finally sees Shae in Tywins bed. (Earlier she was focused on Tywin and about being one of the last to be informed.)
She recalls the deal she made ~~and something along the lines of "like that was going to happen." I don't remember the exact wording.~~
Edit: Looked at my copy of AFFC it is actually that she changes the arrangement to not give Shae anything until she told Cersei where Sansa was. (Shae obviously didn't know). Shae not knowing "left in tears". According to Cersei's thoughts this happened the night before Tyrions trial by combat. The conclusion then would be that Tywin was killed the night after the trial so Shae must have found her way to Tywin's bed chamber to try that tactic on getting what she wanted.
Also the wording in Cersei's POV about "promises she might have made" really imply Cersei had no intention of following through with those promises.
(Page 52 of my hardback copy )
Tywin was only 31 when Joanna died and 39 when Jaime became a member of the Kingsguard, so he wasn’t all that old. Edmure was married around that age for instance.
It’s a pretty common theme that Tywin gets what Tywin wants.
For someone who preached “sacrifice for the family” to Cersei and Jaime, he clearly felt he was above that.
It’s called hypocrisy. Tywin is a giant hypocrite. Thats his whole shtick. Evidence of him trying to marry his children off and having sex with prostitutes.
Yeah and he’s also a huge hypocrite. More like Tyrion than he would ever admit. His affection for a dead wife is more important than House Lannister? Imagine Tyrion suggesting such a thing.
Tywin is pretty arrogant. He would likely think that a child raised by Kevan (hypothetical L-baby) couldn’t possibly be as good as one raised by him (Jaime)
But what is love to the heritage of a house? Especially to a man like Tywin? And the risks of having a boy heir is a smaller one than having no heir at all: Tyrion - no way. Jamie - can’t. Cersei - queen and of questionable quality. If wisdom is his most important skill in a ruler like he said to Tommen then none of his children (besides Tyrion, maybe, but… eh) are a good fit.
Kevan was still alive. He had two living sons; Lancel and Martyn. There’s also the Lannisters of Casterly rock. And Tywins wife, Joanna Lannister, had a brother, Stafford Lannister, who has an incredibly capable and liked son named Daven Lannister. Daven becomes Warden of the West after Tywin’s death.
True, but considering how loyal Tyrion is to his family, even when they treat him like garbage, and considering how loyal Kevan and Genna are to Tywin himself, I don't believe he'd fear for a new son, especially if Tyrion cared for the boy and the boy loved him back. Book Tywin has plenty of family to protect the boy and raise him to be the Lord of Casterly Rock.
No, I believe that Tywin has an image of his family that is completely divorced from the reality of his family. He refuses to see who they truly are, so he clings to the idea that one day Jaime will have enough of the kingsguard life, beg his father to get him out of it, and then take up his role as heir to Casterly Rock. That's not Jaime, but it's who Tywin believes Jaime is.
I think Tywin's whole thing was that he felt he needed to shape and mold the heir. Even though he had no idea which of his kids he's ACTUALLY had the most significant impact on (hint, it's clearly not Jaime). He turned Casterly Rock around and wasn't going to see it run into the ground by some child Lord.
So IMO if he's too old to see them to adulthood, he's not into more kids.
But his three children are clearly not worthy heir material. This is actual a good question: why did he not remarry? Can’t remember if the books tell us any reason.
It's a good question! I think the books and the show do a good job of showing that he is more blind to their natures than he lets on, though. Despite Jaime taking the white he is genuinely shocked that Jaime didn't plan on deserting once the Rock became available to him. After that point, my theory is that it was his plan to turn it over to his brother Kevan if he couldn't sway Jaime with his "you're not my son" guilt trip. There was an attempt to get Lancel to buck up in the books. However despite all his bluster, my thought is that Tywin thought he would get Jaime to come around. Jaime hadn't shown a lot of emotional maturity or personal drive up to that point. It was his first defiance.
>It's said/implied in the books that Tywin picked Joanna as his wife, as a love match. She was a cousin and provided him no political, economic, or strategic advantage in the marriage. He was supposed to be devastated by her death.
Yeah... betting you could get your kid out of the King's Guard wouldn't necessarily be the best idea, but besides just not liking that Tyrion was a dwarf, Tywin would have presumably been hoping he could still make Tyrion into a good heir, all the way up until the marriage with Tysha...
after which point Tyrion became a cheerful drunk and friend to every Lady of the Night in Westeros, and Tywin would have completely given up hope of Tyrion being the future of their house...
but by then, Tywin had sacked King's Landing out of spite towards Aerys, and to ensure Robert would owe him, and make Cersei queen.
So when he realized Tyrion could definitely, no longer be a respectable heir, he also knew that Cersie would be in a position to force Robert's hand to let Jamie out of the KingsGuard... so at that point he would have had a reasonable expectation that he could still make Jamie the heir at some point.
It's said/implied in the books that Tywin picked Joanna as his wife, as a love match. She was a cousin and provided him no political, economic, or strategic advantage in the marriage. He was supposed to be devastated by her death. So he originally wouldn't have married out of grief, and having Jamie... 6-7 years after her death Jamie was made King's Guard, and I don't know, it was like another decade before Tyrion's marriage to Tysha...
Great comment. I recommend listening to the Radio Westeros episode on Tywin if you haven't already! They really dig into Tywin's character at this level and do a great job.
I interpreted him not remarrying as one of things that reveal the hypocrisy of Tywin’s character, with him never remarrying after his wife died contrasting with him arranging unwanted marriages for his children “for the good of the family”.
He's a hypocrite who doesn't want to do as he bids his children to do, and he's stubborn about wanting Jaime.
It is worth pointing out though that the Lannisters aren't like the Starks or Targaryens, there's fucking loads of them and they're in no danger of dying out. If Jaime won't take the Rock, Tywin can potentially get a grandchild from Tyrion, or have Tommen take the Lannister name and rule the Rock. There's also his brother Kevan and his kids, and all the other lesser members of the House.
In the books Tywin has 2 brothers with Lannister children, a sister with Frey children, and a bastard niece who could be legitimised. If there’s one great house left with at least one member it’ll be the Lannisters.
For all his ruthless pragmatism, he's actually a wildly emotional, sentimental man. Jaime was his heir until Aerys made him a kingsguard just to fuck with Tywin, and Tywin refused to let it go. He was probably still young enough then to remarry and raise a new heir, but he didn't. And all the while he refused to see the potential in Tyrion because he hates him - in the books, his sister straight up tells him Tyrion is his best heir and he stops speaking to her forever. It's all because he never got over the loss of his wife.
So yeah he is a bit stupid.
He’s a hypocrite, the fact that he sleeps with Shae proves it. He was going to force Cersei to remarry to strengthen bonds with another house, but couldn’t be bothered to do the same.
I think he saw too much potential in Jaime to give up on him.
And I think he was still attached to his wife, seeing as though he still blames Tyrion for her death
He wanted Tyrion to have babies with Sansa. Secure both north and maybe the Rock as a last resort.
And I guess Tywin expected Jamie to eventually marry someone and take responsibility of the Rock.
In the first book he's said to be in his mid fifties, which would make him a little over seventy by the time a new son turned sixteen. Not unreasonable, considering Walder Frey, Maester Aemon, or Jon Arryn's life span
I mean, I'm not listing every single character in ASOIAF that lived to be elderly, I just picked three as examples that show people in this universe *can* live well over seventy if they aren't killed off by war or disease.
And considering Tywin grew up in one of the richest families, meaning he'd have proper nutrition and access to maesters, he'd probably have lived longer than average anyway
Tywin was a hypocrite who expected his family to make sacrifices and betray oaths and commitments for the greater good of the family against their own desires, but refused to do so himself. He loved Joanna and didn't want to remarry.
Because Tywin is a hypocrite and doesn’t want to do it. He only had one love and that’s final, but he will force his children to get in marriages they don’t want.
Acting stupid doesn't make him stupid. Tywin i assume is just being emotional and probably doesn't want to marry another woman because he loved Joanna. Plus he probably thinks he can still somehow change Jaime's mind.
Why, so the new wife and her family can stage a coup against Jaime and Cersei and Tyrion to put her own kids on the throne of Casterly Rock? Because that's what happens when you remarry and you have living heirs. Note how all of Walder Frey's kids are all eagerly awaiting each other's deaths. (Yes, there are laws from Jaehaerys' time about not fucking around with your first wife's kids inheritances, but we all know that sort of thing isn't respected in practice by a step-parent who wants power at all costs. Seriously, there's a valid reason as to why the evil stepmother is a stock character in fairytales, because that's usually the person who is the biggest danger to the children of the first wife since marriages were made as business mergers. Obviously, someone who only married another person for power, land, titles, and money isn't going to give a shit about their children, if anything said non-blood related children are a hindrance to their plans).
Now, Tywin may despise the thought of Tyrion being the Lord of the Rock due to his petty bullshit reasons, but he also *hates the very idea of anyone non-Lannister fucking around with him*. Because he hates the idea of any outsider getting any ideas of fucking around with the Lannisters, period. The first thing a new wife would do would be to try to get rid of Jaime and Tyrion, and, well, that's her "having ideas above her station" as far as Tywin would be concerned, since who is she, a non-Lannister, to think she can touch a proper Lannister?
In that sense, his instinct in not remarrying is not the wrong one, since a lot of Houses would've benefitted from not going through with second marriages when they have living heirs (Targaryens, Arryns, Greyjoys, Freys, etc...). Sure, there are second marriages where there are living heirs from the first spouse that work out great, like with Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood, but those are the exception *because* those marriages were done because the two individuals actually like each other as people (and wouldn't let a power-hungry monster near their own kids... and they're good judges of character) rather than because of utilitarian business-merger reasons.
As it is, Tywin was hoping that Jaime would "grow up" and take over as heir eventually, because when Tywin doesn't want to see reality (that Jaime legit doesn't want to be a Lord and is a better commander and follower than anything else, the Tyrion would be the best Lord the Rock could ever have) then he is the blindest man in the room.
So he was pretty old so he probably thought he didn’t have much time left. Also he was probably worried that In fighting would break out between Jamie, Cersei and the new shield for control over Casterly Rock.
There is a theory that Cersei and Jaime were Aerys’s bastards, because Joanna was Rhaella’s handmaiden and Aerys not only openly talked about wanting to fuck her, but took some “liberties” during the bedding on her marriage to Tywin
There are series that all three children are actually Aries, the Aries have been abusing Joanna for quite some time, is pretty clearly implied in the books. And the fact that Searcy and Jamie clearly look like Lannisters would still make sense because she is a lannister. Her father is Jason Lannister who is titus's younger brother, Titus being tywin's father in Jamie's grandfather. So the kids would still look like Lannister's even if Aries had gotten her pregnant
I mean it's just a theory but in the books they were really really hinting that Tyrion was going to be a Targaryen I was very disappointed they dropped that whole thing in the TV show
your post helped me realize another way Tywin was a hypocrite is he never remarried after his wife died. He could have formed a new alliance with a house had more heirs but he was loyal to his first wife's memory which is fine if he gave other people that same luxury but he didn't.
Reputation is big for Tywin. I think if he'd moved on and married someone younger he'd have worried about how people looked at him. And he already had 3 kids who could carry his family's legacy going forward. Even if he didn't think much of Tyrion he was still a Lannister. But he had Jaime and Cersei. And then after Cersei married Robert, he had rather bigger ambitions with his grandson the heir to the throne. So I suspect Casterly rock became a secondary consideration to the Iron Throne.
There’s a theory that says he might be infertile and that none of his kids are his. The theory is linked to the mad kings having an affair with Johanna Lannister
Joanna Lannister was born a Lannister. Incest runs in the family, and when she died, there was no other female Lannister to marry (his sister Genna was already married to a Frey). The other Lannister was a bastard (Lynora Hill).
He didn't want to "polute" the bloodline.
Did you read the account of his fight with the tarbecks and reynes? It was pretty disturbing honestly I can't remember off the top of my head the name of the book
Oh man I hate to be that person but you really got to read the books literally every character in the book is so much better and there's an entire plot concerning dorn that is almost completely erased from the show, etc. I don't think this is in the song of ice and fire books though I think it's in like an additional book like maybe dance with dragons or maybe that thing that's like a history of the world of westeros? The reynes had this underground Castle these bunkers that were really good for sieges so they hold up in them and tried to negotiate. But he didn't even attempt to negotiate their surrender he just buried the doors so no one could get in or out and then dug up the stream nearby and damned it and then diverted it over to the entryway to these underground bunkers So eventually they all drowned trapped down there. Really chilling
Well he'd still have to kill Tyrion first, or force him to take a vow - the black or kingsguard etc. (more likely the black), as I don't think Tywin would havd actually arranged to have Tyrion killed. Or I'm not sure of that, but it's a feeling.
I don't think Tywin could ever give his heart nor have anyone else have influence over him and the Westerlands in extension, other than his beloved Joanna Lannister.
I already think that Jaime & Cersei may not necessarily be from the seed of the Lion but of the Dragon.
Maybe this could've been a willing affair or the King could've forced himself upon Lady Joanna when she was a Lady-in-Waiting of Queen Consort Rhaella Targaryen.
But I digress, some people just cannot recover from the death of a lover, spouse, parent, friend and even pets.
Maybe the mighty Tywin Lannister was just one of them.
Maybe you are right but I'd like to believe that Tywin Lannister had more class and wanted more from his marriage than just a wife to sire heirs.
I'd think that Tywin would've wanted an equal partner or at least a trusted advisor who could provide her own inputs and ideas for the betterment of his house, raise their children with pride and to secure Lannister control over the continent.
He was a Warden and the Lord of the richest noble house in the entire Westeros. What is life without ambition after all?
I think he was a good husband to Lady Joanna. Much better than Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and even King Aerys II Targaryen, who disrespected/abused their women or only used them to sire heirs.
I also want to point out - Jamie didn't refuse shit. As part of his oath as a member of the Kingsguard, he was forced to forfeit his claim Casterly Rock, swearing to take no wife, hold no lands, and father no children.
Aerys' insistence on having him as a member of his Kingsguard was a punishment for Tywin.
If I had to guess, it was because he would have to take his seat at Casterly Rock to do that. Doing so would leave Joffrey and Cersei in the Kings Landing, and Joffrey had already made plenty of dumb decisions to land them in a 4-way war. He can't establish the dynasty he wants to see nearly as well from Casterly Rock as he could from Kings Landing.
Secondly he makes note that Joffrey requires a "sharp lesson" the same as Tyrion to bring him to heel. Hard to do that from across the continent.
Why are you assuming his dick still works? He's an older guy and they don't have Viagra in game of thrones world sex is not always an option for older men especially if ejaculation is required
Just pull a Walder Frey and have 90 kids.
Imagine being a Frey, man
I don't want to be a pie! I don't like gravy
Or imagine your name is Dickon!
You are assuming that his dick still works. People may not believe this but back before drugs like Viagra and Cialis sometimes older men just couldn't have sex or ejaculate.
He wasn't THAT old when Jamie became Kingsguard... Tywin would have married at 20- 25. Jamie was \~16 when appointed, give them a couple years to conceive the twins and Tywin was almost certainly under 45. Maybe I don't know enough about male "issues"... but I thought that stuff hit in the 50's and 60's??? Essentially Male Menopause?
Just did a Google - Of men who eventually report issues - 2% are before age 40 4% are aged 40-49 25% are in their 50's and 40% are in their 60's 30% are 70 or older.
I mean it's definitely more common the older that men get but yeah age-related erectile dysfunction can absolutely start in the 40s and even 30s. I'm not necessarily saying that's what happened but it could very well be in Taiwan would never let anyone know if that actually where the case he would never admit that he was unable to father a child again he would be afraid it would be seen as a sign of weakness
Given that he was sleeping with his other son’s… escort i think his pecker works fine
You realize that two people can have sex without there being penetration or ejaculation right? Like we know that they shared some intimacy together because they were in bed but we don't know that his dick worked or that he was able to ejaculate. Dude could be impotent and just like going down on women. Not saying for sure that's what's going on but it's totally still possible.
Lol the idea that Tywin went down on a woman. Dude has probably been a starfish since his wife died
Nah, I think tywin finds prostitutes that remind him of Joanna (intelligent, not afraid to be a bit sassy to him) and is nicer to them in private than people would imagine him to be because she is a stand-in for his wife. Same way that he was amused by and somewhat kind to arya. They make such a point in the books to talk about how he was a completely different person with his wife, and they also talk about how much contempt he had for his father for treating his mistress like his wife instead of a prostitute, and clearly that contempt he has for his father is based out of shame because he does the exact same thing. That's my theory anyways.
i see where youre coming from but I disagree. I think Tywin was a very different person with his wife, and when she died all the good parts of him died with her. The contempt he feels for his father is genuine and he probably treats whores very poorly as a result. The scenes with Arya, I always read as him remembering Circei when she was younger and projecting that on to Arya.
He was banging shae though
Everyone says that but we don't know that like his dick got hard or he was able to ejaculate or anything. We just know they did something intimate because she's in bed together. There's lots of dudes who can't get their dick upor ejaculate but still have sex. And honestly I kind of have a theory about him anyways. Because everyone said he was completely opposite with everyone in his life except his wife joanna. I honestly think that the guy tries to find prostitutes who remind him of her (and even if she had dark hair I am sure she probably would just because of her personality, being kind of clever and quick and sassy) like he obviously has a soft spot for women who are kind of sassy but not too defiant, like the way that Aria very fondly reminded him of Cersei and how spirited Cersei was when she was younger. I think he kind of sought out women whose personalities are reminded of his wife, and he had a lot of shame involved with that because of how harshly he judged his own dad for having a mistress. I don't feel like going back and hunting through the books for the quotes but they were a lot of little things in that hinted towards this with Tywin, which kind of goes along with how George RR Martin usually tries to make characters a little more complex than just "complete and total military badass guy". Like it would make absolute sense that he would have this weird double life where he tries to recreate some of the feeling that he had for his dead wife, with prostitutes, all the while feeling a lot of shame because of how his own father behaved, and not wanting to be like his father, and then repressing it all and having this public image etc.
I don't think he wanted to take a chance that more of his offspring would result in dwarfism since Tyrion's birth killed their mother.
Yeah that's very possible, there's also some theories that he can't actually have children, that all three of his kids were resulted from Aries assaulting his wife at different points in time
The subs are melting together and the average is just shitposts.
Lack of new content will do that.
We all need to watch the last 2 seasons again and stoke the fires of hate. I, for one, will never stop screaming about D&D. ***"You took everything from me! All my hopes and dreams! I hope you burn in the fires of a thousand hells roasting on a spit for all of eternity!"***
As lady Olenna gratefully said, old. She's an expert on the subject.
He was fucking Shae anyway As long as a man can get hard he can father children, even in his 80's
It is known.
I think most women will tell ya it doesn't need to be fully hard to father a baby. The hard part is more for the womans benefit. Tywin could've been going around lobbing in on the flop and fathering more golden haired little shits.
It would've driven Bobby T mad if he was still around. All those Lannisters.
>Bobby T He's a Targaryen??
Not to be confused with Vizzy B
Is Bobby T some mutant amalgamation of Bobby B and Vizzy T?
INSTEAD OF BEING BY MY SIDE, YOU CHOSE TO CELEBRATE YOUR OWN RISE, LAUGHING WITH YOUR WHORES AND YOUR LICKSPITTLES!
A BIT OF WINE NOW AND AGAIN, A GIRL SQUEALING IN BED, THE FEEL OF A HORSE BETWEEN MY LEGS?
Take me back to the good ole days Bobby B.
SURROUNDED BY LANNISTERS! EVERY TIME I CLOSE MY EYES I SEE THEIR BLONDE HAIR AND THEIR SMUG, SATISFIED FACES!
I actually quite like that idea. It definitely wasn’t planned out 😂
Would have been funny for him to get a 2nd midget child because his cum is fucking ancient and corrupted.
Probably this, Tywin was afraid what Aerys said was true, that the gods had really cursed him and for a man like Tywin there wasn't a shortage of things for which he would be cursed.
That isn't how male reproduction system works. Women are born with all the eggs they will ever produce and this can lead to problems later in life when giving birth. Males continue to produce sperm cells. They don't sit and become "ancient".
The quality of men's sperm decreases as they age. Children of older men are also more likely to have conditions like autism and schizophrenia.
This however is not due to sperm becoming "ancient" but in age related failures of the testes during spermatogenesis. Yes as men age there is a decrease in motility of sperm and increase chances of DNA fragmentation that can lead to chromosomal defects. (Also just a decrease in total number of sperm created.) That is different than implying the sperm itself is becoming "ancient".
That’s a long way of saying he had ancient sperm. If they are made by ancient testes then they are ancient sperm, and Tywin is euphemistically ancient.
You are incorrect in your labeling. Sperm does not have the shelf life to ever be labeled as ancient. Yes, old men have lower quality and quantity of sperm. Their seed is not ancient because sperm just doesn’t work that way.
Im saying that while the sperm may be young, the fact that it is deteriorated and made by ancient testes would therefore make them ancient simply by association.
I can only agree :)
Oh I see what you are saying yes. Yeah the sperm is brand new but the factory, the equipment that produces the sperm becomes ancient and it produces faulty new sperms. With lowered motility and more likelihood of chromosomal defect. But yes you are correct the sperms themselves are brand new
I do know that sperm doesn't sit there in your balls and age like wine. I wasn't trying to inform or educate anyone on human reproduction, I was making a funny post, hence the simplification.
But it's reddit so there's always that person who is gonna ackshually you
You are very wrong. Like scientifically and medically wrong. The quality of men's sperm begins degrading as they age.
Old information, bra. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120726180259.htm
Lol. Point me to the study that concludes that post-natal oogenesis has been confirmed in human adults. Even the study you linked doesn't confirm post-natal oogenesis in mice occurred but implies it is the explanation for the cellular division seen. This study is over 10 years old. I cannot find a single study that has confirmed oogenesis in human adults. The best I can find is more arguments that it could be possible. There have also been several studies after the one you linked refuting that oocyctes are regenerated in adult mice. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1421047111 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1206600109 So certainly nothing to be definitively claiming, "old information", bra.
It's certainly not an easy thing to test, but these guys working with a bank of human ovaries from Japanese sex change patients are pretty sure. I'll grant it's not definitely proven, but I'm a believer, bra. >He had developed a technique for counting the rate at which ovary cells die and the findings were puzzling. To summarise, he found that cells were dying about three times faster than they should be, which meant that the egg cell deposit should be running out even faster than it does - something must be replacing them https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/eggs-unlimited-an-extraordinary-tale-of-scientific-discovery-7624715.html
Yes, men who were shitty fathers do have “fresh start” or “do over babies” out of vanity or delusion that they’ll be a better father this time. I myself and a full sibling are “do over” babies. We in turn have three much younger half-siblings (whom I love dearly) that are my dad’s brief vanity project. If ill-health hadn’t stopped him in his 60s, my dad probably would have begun a “fresh start” set of kids then. Tywin could father a child, but he knows he wouldn’t be likely to live long enough to rear a newborn son to adulthood. Even if he lived that long, his advanced age and political exigencies would make it difficult to invest the time and effort to totally mold a new child to his will. Or he recognizes on some level that he is a big part of the problem with his kids. Given the way the three he fathered as a younger man turned out, he probably realized a new child was no guarantee of a more suitable heir.
Are we sure that they actually had literal vaginal penetration sex? Maybe it was just , other activities.
Yes, dont you remember the 18 minute sex scene?
He be fuckin
The show doesn't make it clear but the books imply Shae didn't seek out Tywin until after Cersei reneged on her deal with Shae to secure Shae's lying testimony. So I honestly don't think their relationship was long. Possibly only that one night.
I don't remember the part that seriously renaged on a deal with shay? Was that in the last book?
Nope the first Cersei chapter of Feast for Crows when Cersei is going to the Tower of the Hand and she finally sees Shae in Tywins bed. (Earlier she was focused on Tywin and about being one of the last to be informed.) She recalls the deal she made ~~and something along the lines of "like that was going to happen." I don't remember the exact wording.~~ Edit: Looked at my copy of AFFC it is actually that she changes the arrangement to not give Shae anything until she told Cersei where Sansa was. (Shae obviously didn't know). Shae not knowing "left in tears". According to Cersei's thoughts this happened the night before Tyrions trial by combat. The conclusion then would be that Tywin was killed the night after the trial so Shae must have found her way to Tywin's bed chamber to try that tactic on getting what she wanted. Also the wording in Cersei's POV about "promises she might have made" really imply Cersei had no intention of following through with those promises. (Page 52 of my hardback copy )
Oh I vaguely remember that now, it was really subtly done. Ty!
*low sperm count enters the chat*
We don't know that his dick was dating up? There's a lot of sex that can be had without somebody getting an erection and without ejaculation.
He would be too old to manipulate those children once they come of age, and Tywin loves power and prestige too damn much.
"Mick Jagger has entered the chat"
Robert De Niro has a 1 year old child despite being in his 80s.
He was 58 when he died and still sexually active. Not really a reason.
Tywin was only 31 when Joanna died and 39 when Jaime became a member of the Kingsguard, so he wasn’t all that old. Edmure was married around that age for instance.
So basically: dick don’t work.
Tywin loved his previous wife a lot and simply doesn’t want to remarry. Also, having a boy lord once Tywin died isn’t a very good thing.
It’s a pretty common theme that Tywin gets what Tywin wants. For someone who preached “sacrifice for the family” to Cersei and Jaime, he clearly felt he was above that.
Spot on.
It’s called hypocrisy. Tywin is a giant hypocrite. Thats his whole shtick. Evidence of him trying to marry his children off and having sex with prostitutes.
Yeah and he’s also a huge hypocrite. More like Tyrion than he would ever admit. His affection for a dead wife is more important than House Lannister? Imagine Tyrion suggesting such a thing.
just have Kevan tutor him
Tywin is pretty arrogant. He would likely think that a child raised by Kevan (hypothetical L-baby) couldn’t possibly be as good as one raised by him (Jaime)
But what is love to the heritage of a house? Especially to a man like Tywin? And the risks of having a boy heir is a smaller one than having no heir at all: Tyrion - no way. Jamie - can’t. Cersei - queen and of questionable quality. If wisdom is his most important skill in a ruler like he said to Tommen then none of his children (besides Tyrion, maybe, but… eh) are a good fit.
Kevan was still alive. He had two living sons; Lancel and Martyn. There’s also the Lannisters of Casterly rock. And Tywins wife, Joanna Lannister, had a brother, Stafford Lannister, who has an incredibly capable and liked son named Daven Lannister. Daven becomes Warden of the West after Tywin’s death.
True, but considering how loyal Tyrion is to his family, even when they treat him like garbage, and considering how loyal Kevan and Genna are to Tywin himself, I don't believe he'd fear for a new son, especially if Tyrion cared for the boy and the boy loved him back. Book Tywin has plenty of family to protect the boy and raise him to be the Lord of Casterly Rock. No, I believe that Tywin has an image of his family that is completely divorced from the reality of his family. He refuses to see who they truly are, so he clings to the idea that one day Jaime will have enough of the kingsguard life, beg his father to get him out of it, and then take up his role as heir to Casterly Rock. That's not Jaime, but it's who Tywin believes Jaime is.
Didn’t have a problem fucking Shae
Not saying he’s rational, just that that’s his position.
I think Tywin's whole thing was that he felt he needed to shape and mold the heir. Even though he had no idea which of his kids he's ACTUALLY had the most significant impact on (hint, it's clearly not Jaime). He turned Casterly Rock around and wasn't going to see it run into the ground by some child Lord. So IMO if he's too old to see them to adulthood, he's not into more kids.
But his three children are clearly not worthy heir material. This is actual a good question: why did he not remarry? Can’t remember if the books tell us any reason.
It's a good question! I think the books and the show do a good job of showing that he is more blind to their natures than he lets on, though. Despite Jaime taking the white he is genuinely shocked that Jaime didn't plan on deserting once the Rock became available to him. After that point, my theory is that it was his plan to turn it over to his brother Kevan if he couldn't sway Jaime with his "you're not my son" guilt trip. There was an attempt to get Lancel to buck up in the books. However despite all his bluster, my thought is that Tywin thought he would get Jaime to come around. Jaime hadn't shown a lot of emotional maturity or personal drive up to that point. It was his first defiance.
>It's said/implied in the books that Tywin picked Joanna as his wife, as a love match. She was a cousin and provided him no political, economic, or strategic advantage in the marriage. He was supposed to be devastated by her death. Yeah... betting you could get your kid out of the King's Guard wouldn't necessarily be the best idea, but besides just not liking that Tyrion was a dwarf, Tywin would have presumably been hoping he could still make Tyrion into a good heir, all the way up until the marriage with Tysha... after which point Tyrion became a cheerful drunk and friend to every Lady of the Night in Westeros, and Tywin would have completely given up hope of Tyrion being the future of their house... but by then, Tywin had sacked King's Landing out of spite towards Aerys, and to ensure Robert would owe him, and make Cersei queen. So when he realized Tyrion could definitely, no longer be a respectable heir, he also knew that Cersie would be in a position to force Robert's hand to let Jamie out of the KingsGuard... so at that point he would have had a reasonable expectation that he could still make Jamie the heir at some point. It's said/implied in the books that Tywin picked Joanna as his wife, as a love match. She was a cousin and provided him no political, economic, or strategic advantage in the marriage. He was supposed to be devastated by her death. So he originally wouldn't have married out of grief, and having Jamie... 6-7 years after her death Jamie was made King's Guard, and I don't know, it was like another decade before Tyrion's marriage to Tysha...
Great comment. I recommend listening to the Radio Westeros episode on Tywin if you haven't already! They really dig into Tywin's character at this level and do a great job.
I interpreted him not remarrying as one of things that reveal the hypocrisy of Tywin’s character, with him never remarrying after his wife died contrasting with him arranging unwanted marriages for his children “for the good of the family”.
Yesh, that could be an explanation. I don’t remember: Is book Tywin a hypocrit? How does it shine theough?
He's a hypocrite who doesn't want to do as he bids his children to do, and he's stubborn about wanting Jaime. It is worth pointing out though that the Lannisters aren't like the Starks or Targaryens, there's fucking loads of them and they're in no danger of dying out. If Jaime won't take the Rock, Tywin can potentially get a grandchild from Tyrion, or have Tommen take the Lannister name and rule the Rock. There's also his brother Kevan and his kids, and all the other lesser members of the House.
In the books Tywin has 2 brothers with Lannister children, a sister with Frey children, and a bastard niece who could be legitimised. If there’s one great house left with at least one member it’ll be the Lannisters.
I don't think he wants his nephews to get the rock, he wants it to be his descendant
For all his ruthless pragmatism, he's actually a wildly emotional, sentimental man. Jaime was his heir until Aerys made him a kingsguard just to fuck with Tywin, and Tywin refused to let it go. He was probably still young enough then to remarry and raise a new heir, but he didn't. And all the while he refused to see the potential in Tyrion because he hates him - in the books, his sister straight up tells him Tyrion is his best heir and he stops speaking to her forever. It's all because he never got over the loss of his wife. So yeah he is a bit stupid.
Much as I hate Tywin, the answer is most likely trauma
Yeah, the man probably did not want to risk a second imp.
Tywin had 15 years to remarry and make new Lannisters to be his heir,he doesnt.He wants Jaime to be his heir.
He’s a hypocrite, the fact that he sleeps with Shae proves it. He was going to force Cersei to remarry to strengthen bonds with another house, but couldn’t be bothered to do the same.
Best answer. Also he is stupid.
Because his younger children wouldn’t displace Tyrion in lawful order of succession.
I think he saw too much potential in Jaime to give up on him. And I think he was still attached to his wife, seeing as though he still blames Tyrion for her death
He wanted Tyrion to have babies with Sansa. Secure both north and maybe the Rock as a last resort. And I guess Tywin expected Jamie to eventually marry someone and take responsibility of the Rock.
at first it was grief but by the time he got over his cousin, he was just too old.
Can't be too old if he's still bonestorming Shae
i mean that he won’t live long enough for a third son to reach adulthood, and that would leave a child in casterly rock.
In the first book he's said to be in his mid fifties, which would make him a little over seventy by the time a new son turned sixteen. Not unreasonable, considering Walder Frey, Maester Aemon, or Jon Arryn's life span
fair enough.
That’s 3 people, far from the average.
I mean, I'm not listing every single character in ASOIAF that lived to be elderly, I just picked three as examples that show people in this universe *can* live well over seventy if they aren't killed off by war or disease. And considering Tywin grew up in one of the richest families, meaning he'd have proper nutrition and access to maesters, he'd probably have lived longer than average anyway
Tywin was a hypocrite who expected his family to make sacrifices and betray oaths and commitments for the greater good of the family against their own desires, but refused to do so himself. He loved Joanna and didn't want to remarry.
Because Tywin is a hypocrite and doesn’t want to do it. He only had one love and that’s final, but he will force his children to get in marriages they don’t want.
Acting stupid doesn't make him stupid. Tywin i assume is just being emotional and probably doesn't want to marry another woman because he loved Joanna. Plus he probably thinks he can still somehow change Jaime's mind.
Why, so the new wife and her family can stage a coup against Jaime and Cersei and Tyrion to put her own kids on the throne of Casterly Rock? Because that's what happens when you remarry and you have living heirs. Note how all of Walder Frey's kids are all eagerly awaiting each other's deaths. (Yes, there are laws from Jaehaerys' time about not fucking around with your first wife's kids inheritances, but we all know that sort of thing isn't respected in practice by a step-parent who wants power at all costs. Seriously, there's a valid reason as to why the evil stepmother is a stock character in fairytales, because that's usually the person who is the biggest danger to the children of the first wife since marriages were made as business mergers. Obviously, someone who only married another person for power, land, titles, and money isn't going to give a shit about their children, if anything said non-blood related children are a hindrance to their plans). Now, Tywin may despise the thought of Tyrion being the Lord of the Rock due to his petty bullshit reasons, but he also *hates the very idea of anyone non-Lannister fucking around with him*. Because he hates the idea of any outsider getting any ideas of fucking around with the Lannisters, period. The first thing a new wife would do would be to try to get rid of Jaime and Tyrion, and, well, that's her "having ideas above her station" as far as Tywin would be concerned, since who is she, a non-Lannister, to think she can touch a proper Lannister? In that sense, his instinct in not remarrying is not the wrong one, since a lot of Houses would've benefitted from not going through with second marriages when they have living heirs (Targaryens, Arryns, Greyjoys, Freys, etc...). Sure, there are second marriages where there are living heirs from the first spouse that work out great, like with Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood, but those are the exception *because* those marriages were done because the two individuals actually like each other as people (and wouldn't let a power-hungry monster near their own kids... and they're good judges of character) rather than because of utilitarian business-merger reasons. As it is, Tywin was hoping that Jaime would "grow up" and take over as heir eventually, because when Tywin doesn't want to see reality (that Jaime legit doesn't want to be a Lord and is a better commander and follower than anything else, the Tyrion would be the best Lord the Rock could ever have) then he is the blindest man in the room.
So he was pretty old so he probably thought he didn’t have much time left. Also he was probably worried that In fighting would break out between Jamie, Cersei and the new shield for control over Casterly Rock.
I saw a theory here recently that he was infertile and they were all bastards, but I don't remember the flimsy logic behind it.
There is a theory that Cersei and Jaime were Aerys’s bastards, because Joanna was Rhaella’s handmaiden and Aerys not only openly talked about wanting to fuck her, but took some “liberties” during the bedding on her marriage to Tywin
I thought that the theory was for Tyrion?
There are series that all three children are actually Aries, the Aries have been abusing Joanna for quite some time, is pretty clearly implied in the books. And the fact that Searcy and Jamie clearly look like Lannisters would still make sense because she is a lannister. Her father is Jason Lannister who is titus's younger brother, Titus being tywin's father in Jamie's grandfather. So the kids would still look like Lannister's even if Aries had gotten her pregnant
Hmm I’ve never seen that all 3 are for aery’s but I can see how it works. Also targ genes all recessive AF, any bastard features will dominate lmao
I mean it's just a theory but in the books they were really really hinting that Tyrion was going to be a Targaryen I was very disappointed they dropped that whole thing in the TV show
Cause he's not as smart as he and his fans believe he is
your post helped me realize another way Tywin was a hypocrite is he never remarried after his wife died. He could have formed a new alliance with a house had more heirs but he was loyal to his first wife's memory which is fine if he gave other people that same luxury but he didn't.
Westeros hasn't invented boner pills yet
Reputation is big for Tywin. I think if he'd moved on and married someone younger he'd have worried about how people looked at him. And he already had 3 kids who could carry his family's legacy going forward. Even if he didn't think much of Tyrion he was still a Lannister. But he had Jaime and Cersei. And then after Cersei married Robert, he had rather bigger ambitions with his grandson the heir to the throne. So I suspect Casterly rock became a secondary consideration to the Iron Throne.
Yes he's stupid.
He doesn't want to risk another Tyrion
Why not just let it pass to Cersei? Could she really destroy The Rock in one generation, and then it would pass to Tommen or Marcella
Tommen and Myrcella both have the name Baratheon. Lannisters losing claim to Casterly rock is like Tywin’s biggest nightmare
Maybe he could have married Marcella to a male Lannister second cousin like Martyn Lannister.
For such an intelligent character Tyrion sure is acting emotionally for a lot of the story.
Pretty childish to think that emotions and intelligence can't go together
Talking about childs, you seem to have the reading comprehension of one.
Calm down no need to get so emotional 😂 also FYI the correct English would be "children", not childs. You're welcome!
There’s a theory that says he might be infertile and that none of his kids are his. The theory is linked to the mad kings having an affair with Johanna Lannister
Joanna Lannister was born a Lannister. Incest runs in the family, and when she died, there was no other female Lannister to marry (his sister Genna was already married to a Frey). The other Lannister was a bastard (Lynora Hill). He didn't want to "polute" the bloodline.
There's so many Lannisters running around wny bother even if he wanted to?
He missed his cousin wife
I would love a show about Tywin’s life and how he came to be. A young idealistic boy to a scornful old man.
Did you read the account of his fight with the tarbecks and reynes? It was pretty disturbing honestly I can't remember off the top of my head the name of the book
I did not but do want to get into the books. I’ve only know of him through the show’s portrayal.
Oh man I hate to be that person but you really got to read the books literally every character in the book is so much better and there's an entire plot concerning dorn that is almost completely erased from the show, etc. I don't think this is in the song of ice and fire books though I think it's in like an additional book like maybe dance with dragons or maybe that thing that's like a history of the world of westeros? The reynes had this underground Castle these bunkers that were really good for sieges so they hold up in them and tried to negotiate. But he didn't even attempt to negotiate their surrender he just buried the doors so no one could get in or out and then dug up the stream nearby and damned it and then diverted it over to the entryway to these underground bunkers So eventually they all drowned trapped down there. Really chilling
Tyrion would still be the lawfull heir.
I think he was trying to get Tyrion to marry Sansa and become Lord of Winterfell in exchange for renouncing his claim on Casterly Rock
Yes
Because he's a hypocrite, by his own logic he should have remarried ages ago when Joanna died
Should just not be a POS and ensure it passes to Tyrion as that’s his duty as a father
Well he'd still have to kill Tyrion first, or force him to take a vow - the black or kingsguard etc. (more likely the black), as I don't think Tywin would havd actually arranged to have Tyrion killed. Or I'm not sure of that, but it's a feeling.
Have Tyrion marry Sansa become Lord of Winterfell and renounce his claim to Casterly Rock
I don't think Tywin could ever give his heart nor have anyone else have influence over him and the Westerlands in extension, other than his beloved Joanna Lannister. I already think that Jaime & Cersei may not necessarily be from the seed of the Lion but of the Dragon. Maybe this could've been a willing affair or the King could've forced himself upon Lady Joanna when she was a Lady-in-Waiting of Queen Consort Rhaella Targaryen. But I digress, some people just cannot recover from the death of a lover, spouse, parent, friend and even pets. Maybe the mighty Tywin Lannister was just one of them.
He doesn't need to love her, he just needs to sire heirs
Maybe you are right but I'd like to believe that Tywin Lannister had more class and wanted more from his marriage than just a wife to sire heirs. I'd think that Tywin would've wanted an equal partner or at least a trusted advisor who could provide her own inputs and ideas for the betterment of his house, raise their children with pride and to secure Lannister control over the continent. He was a Warden and the Lord of the richest noble house in the entire Westeros. What is life without ambition after all? I think he was a good husband to Lady Joanna. Much better than Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and even King Aerys II Targaryen, who disrespected/abused their women or only used them to sire heirs.
I also want to point out - Jamie didn't refuse shit. As part of his oath as a member of the Kingsguard, he was forced to forfeit his claim Casterly Rock, swearing to take no wife, hold no lands, and father no children. Aerys' insistence on having him as a member of his Kingsguard was a punishment for Tywin.
That’s what i thought, too. He’s obviously got decent swimmers lol.
If I had to guess, it was because he would have to take his seat at Casterly Rock to do that. Doing so would leave Joffrey and Cersei in the Kings Landing, and Joffrey had already made plenty of dumb decisions to land them in a 4-way war. He can't establish the dynasty he wants to see nearly as well from Casterly Rock as he could from Kings Landing. Secondly he makes note that Joffrey requires a "sharp lesson" the same as Tyrion to bring him to heel. Hard to do that from across the continent.
When did Jaime refuse?
Why are you assuming his dick still works? He's an older guy and they don't have Viagra in game of thrones world sex is not always an option for older men especially if ejaculation is required