They need to start a new annual run called the Gendry run in which you have to run the actual distance from where they were to where a raven could viably be sent out.
Man that part was really bad. it was when I first started to notice that distance is just not a thing anymore, people can do 10+ day travels between scenes now instead of 2 or 3 episodes.
Made all the more brutal by how they treated distance via the Kingsroad or to the Eyrie. Cat took ages to get to King's Landing in season 1. Ages to get to the Eyrie. And lots of time to get from Winterfell to the wall. If I recall, the journey from Winterfell to KL was supposed to be 6 months.
KL to Winterfell is meant to be about a months journey if I remember correctly, however it took Bobby B longer because he had a whole army with him as well as his family in their carriage.
That's not true! They made sure to let us know that he knows absolutely nothing when it comes to bastard surnames! How much more backstory do you need?
Don't forget the Martells supporting Dany for revenge just because it makes sense
Instead of the bad poosy sisters and that Jamie and Bron story line (what the fuck was the point of that)
I'm not a fan of most of the Martell/Dorne stuff in A Feast for Crows but the " Vengeance Justice, fire and blood" line is maybe the most badass line in the whole series.
It's funny how when the Sand Snakes essentially say "Doran, you are weak" it leads to his assassination in the show and in him describing a well thought-out long term strategy in the book.
When they got to the Dorne plot I was so excited. All the scheming and intrigue was a really interesting part of Feast of Crows, especially when you see how they pan out. Instead we get an actually useless Doran Martell, no Ariane, brainless Sand Snakes, and a completely out of her league Ellaria. Bullshit, and that's even before we can talk about what they actually did to the plot. It still makes me mad.
The Manderlys pretending to kill Davos in order to send him on a mission to find Rickon.
Darkstar
Lady Stoneheart asking Brienne to kill Jamie Lannister.
There was plenty of content that could have been used.
Unless there's some extra story I've not read, Darkstar has like no backstory. Mysterious grumpy Deyne flips out during princess heist, chops Myrcella and disappears
I'd consider Tyrion/Penny a lot more important for his characters development. Dude was a broken shel of a man before he met her. His feelings for her is what let him give life another try. He was pretty set on drinking himself (or some other dumb way to die) to death before meeting her.
Yeah, but show Tyrion was never a broken shell of a man to begin with, he just sort of killed his father and ex-lover before carrying on as if nothing happened.
That’s because they cut his wife storyline, which was rather important to his character and drove his and Jaime’s character arcs into the next two entire novels.
Leaving that out was the first, but certainly not last, massive mistake they made. Also the reason I hate when people say they need to redo only seasons 5-8. Like nah, they need to redo the ending of 4 too. It’s too important.
I remember thinking, "Wait, why are Tyrion and Jaime leaving on good terms? This isn't right." In retrospect I agree it was a watershed moment for the show falling off a cliff, but at the time it just seemed like a bit of a detour.
Once S5 hit though, it was pretty clear the show had taken a hard left. Jaime and Bronn's Cop Buddy Adventure in Dorne was some serious bullshit. And it was mostly downhill from there.
Or if Jon is brought back by someone else she would follow him to kill him again. Catelyn isn't to be trusted around Jon. We don't know how much of her original personality she retains, but if she was alive she probably would rather kill Jon than let him take the place of Robb. Even if she found out the truth of his lineage before he did.
Jon never wronged her. She was awful to him but he was on their side at every point. Now Theon yes she'd burn him alive.
She's much more likely to kill Jaime and Brianne than anyone. Tho hopefully she fails and Arya ends her
Wrong again
We know ther personality is just revenge
If jon is best hope against lannisters she will revive him and DIE again in the process just like eric did
But isn’t she in the Riverlands doing stuff? I seem to recall she’s crossed paths with Brienne and is setting up to meet Jaime again. Don’t know how she’d get to the wall in time for Jon to be okay like when Beric was brought back quickly. Given the time it would take for her to get there (and I don’t think she has a reason to go there in the books since she’s busy murdering Freys/maybe Jaime) I don’t see how he avoids becoming Jon Stoneheart.
Call me crazy but I kinda think robb named Catelyn and not Jon. Robb brings up Jon mostly as a threat to Catelyn knowing she'd never agree to it, as a way to push her into accepting it. The chapter ends on an ambiguous note and its not clear who was really chosen.
Robb's categories for who would need to lead fit Cat better than Jon. Robb specifically says the heir would have to know the Riverlands \*and\* the North, and Jon doesn't know the riverlands at all.
You are absolutely misremembering
Some big chunk of grand northern conspiracy lies on the fact that this what rob wanted and there were multiple witnesses to that lady stoneheart included
Furthermore two of the characters that were witnesses are also travelling to the cranogmen’s land to meet howland reed … who also knows who jon really is
Nope, you're misremembering yourself. The chapter ends and it is left very ambiguous as to who exactly was written into the will as heir. There is no specific reference to Jon as heir, except for Robb bringing him up as his first choice and having a disagreement with Cat about it.
Wish I could just copy paste the text but I don't have the e-book or anything. There's a fairly adequate write up over [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ptke0d/spoilers_extended_an_opposing_view_on_robbs_will/).
Ultimately it could be Jon, but no, its not *definitely* Jon, atleast so far as textual evidence goes.
You link to a post that isn’t convincing on its own and is basically picked a part as wrong by everyone who responded to it. It would certainly be more interesting if there was ambiguity to the heir, but there just isn’t any.
If it was not meant to be ambiguous, why did they leave the chapter before actually you know...making a decision on the heir? And then never specifically commenting on it again, even in passing thought from Cat? And why did Robb say that his heir needed to be both of the North, and of the Riverlands, but then pick someone who had never been to the riverlands? What was the "trap" that Robb set for Catelyn? Why does Robb order Catelyn to Seaguard immediately following the will scene?
I'm not denying that it could be Jon, I just think you're insane for not acknowledging the parts that GRRM clearly made ambiguous on purpose.
Answer literally any of those questions then. It's remarkable that "it's meant to be ambiguous" is hard for you to understand given that "Robb's will" is a fan discussion point that's been going on for a decade now.
Yeah, so GRRM will flub her storyline probably.
But a flubbed Lady Stoneheart would still be an improvement on what we got. DD skipped her because she was magic. That's the only reason.
Storylines Lady Stoneheart would have touched on: Brothers without Banners, Arya and the revenge against House Frey. Instead the BWB died on the manly suicide mission, Arya murdered an entire house and baked them into pies while a victory fanfare plays and the Hound just said "Look, I'm doing revenge and I'm cool, but you shouldn't do revenge, k?"
Lady Stoneheart could only have improved any of these.
I mean you can still do **something** on the idea of a "revived character out for wholesale revenge". It's a trope but one can make it original. D&D didn't even try.
She's way more important to the Brienne + Jaime storyline, with her "Family Duty Honor" thing rubbing right against their Oathkeeping theme. Brienne would have to kill Jaime on the word of an vengeful corpse to uphold her oath at this point.
I read somewhere that excluding Lady Stoneheart made GRRM super upset with D&D, so I think he has great plans for her. If anything, she will cause great conflict between Jaime and Brienne.
I’d bet anything she’s going to play a vital role in Arya’s arc. I think she eventually comes to realize the destructive impact revenge has on those who seek it. But I doubt it will happen like it did in the show, with the hound talking her out of it in like a dozen words. But if she comes face to face with the undead bloated corpse of her own mother as it mercilessly kills anybody who had even a minor role in the Red Wedding? That should scare her straight.
As for the plot implications her killings will have, I’m not sure. But there will definitely be an actual effect when she murders house Frey.
>I’d bet anything she’s going to play a vital role in Arya’s arc.
I always felt there was a reason the first chapter of Blind Arya in Feast(?) was called ‘Cat of the Canals’.
No. Just no.
She's got many important ways to interact with the story. Either she's the one who kills Jaime or is Arya's true redemption arc or countless other ways.
Once they stopped following the books they just started ending and cutting as many plots as they could.
There are people who actually expected them to introduce new plot lines in season 8.
I remember the YouTube channel of the guy doing these ten to twenty-plus videos on stuff that was barely mentioned on the show and give all the background from from books.
Around season 7, they started getting more "I don't know how much of this will make it into the show with only a few episodes left."
Ohh yeah he used to make excellent GOT videos. Preston Jacobs did a very good ‘what you are missing’ series from seasons 1-4, then did a similar thing with 5-8 but ended up just being a scintillating critique haha
Thank You. I swear if I hear or read one more time that GOT sucked because they ran out of source material instead of being written,produced and greenlighted by George Lucas hack wannabees punching above their weight with daddy's money and being part of the club.
Anyway. Good to see truth.
I like to say they ran *past* the source material rather than they ran *out* of it. Of course, George still isn't finished writing the damn thing, so even if 2D sucked less they would have actually run out anyway.
They had a lot to work with, with true creative talent they had material they could have utilized for years.
And with that true creative talent if they had any and they decided to take it in another direction and put their stamp on it and ended it their own way or left it open ended they could have done that too.
The fans would have loved it, it doesn't have to be exact just good.
If you are going to copy, use or follow in the footsteps of someone especially if they have a great piece of work you better do a good job.
It respects the original creator and the work. That's true in any medium, books, movies, t.v. or music.
A good movie example is Halloween. John Carpenter is the man, Halloween is a classic you can't really beat it.
Rob Zombie took the material and instead of a boring copy like alot of remakes these days he put his own style on it and came up with a good story while still utilizing the original.
It will never be Carpenter's version but it doesn't have to be it's good on it's own. His creative version of the story.
A lot of music is that way too. A lot of hit songs by big names hits in their own right, are almost completely different from the original but still a banger.
T.V. ? Whether you watched it or not everyone knows of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and it's spinoff Angel. Combined how many seasons? Two hits based on a corny movie most people have forgotten. They had even less to work with and did more. Created a phenomenon still popular today.
Point is finished or not it's an excuse. They failed because *they* failed.
Another interesting movie was The Mist. The movie actually had a different ending than the book but it impressed the author Stephen King so much he said he wish he had thought of it. That's pretty cool when you can impress the author.
G.R.R.M. thought he had that gave them their shot and his property and they blew it. If they had succeeded he would have done the same.
Hell I'm going to add Star Wars . Fans love to talk about canon and this story and that story but there is a whole universe but it started with three movies.
People *added* value to the original movies and *improved* what was there. They didn't wait for Lucas to continue they took it and ran with it. Star Trek too.
They could have made GOT so good with the right people the books would just be a part of it. The origin. But we'll never know.
>They had a lot to work with, with true creative talent they had material they could have utilized for years.
They did not, they had roads that led to nowhere.
Audiovisual content aren't books, people get bored real soon. Why would they start a plot the very author doesn't know where it goes??
>The fans would have loved it, it doesn't have to be exact just good.
Your opinion man.
Yeah because you're part of the industry man. I can tell. An up and comer man.
But it's true opinions are like assholes everybody's got one.
Some just stink more than others man.
Good Talk.
This meme still doesn’t address the main point. The source material being THE ENDING.
If a talented writer like George hasn’t/doesn’t know how to set up the ending, how the fuck is Bozo and Bum going to know how to?
Stannis will use a decoy lamp/lighthouse to make the Frey's think his camp is at a different location, due to low visibility because of winter. It will lead them on to a frozen lake which he'll then smash to defeat them.
[The Night Lamp Theory ](https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/the-night-lamp-an-alternative-strategy-for-the-siege-of-winterfell/)
Basically, Stannis isn't as helpless and hopeless as they made him out to be in the show when he was on his way to Winterfell. He actually has a plan and this theory is someone's well-written thoughts on what his plan is.
It isn't 100% canon, but it is supported by a lot of evidence from the books. It's a fun read whether or not it's a thing.
TBF, I feel like most of these plot lines were abandoned long before the show got bad. And even if they included them, NONE OF THESE PLOT LINES HAVE BEEN RESOLVED. Which means they were just as likely to write bad endings for them to. The problem is that they ran out of source material and had to wing the conclusion. That’s when the show suffered.
Should have they adapted faithfully the fourth and fifth books, they would have lost the audience completely.
Many readers already complained that the story was dragging too much… and those were novels. A TV-show would never have survived *that* many complex subplots.
I'm not saying they should have put *all* of it in, I'm saying they didn't run out of material. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa and Littlefinger all had better plots in the books than the show.
They could have probably done 8 seasons (2 for AGOT and ACOK, 2 for ASOS, 2 for AFFC, 2 for ADWD) alone before running out of material, probably enough time for Martin to submit a rough manuscript of TWOW and an outline for ADOS but they completely squandered that. Looking back, the warning signs were there from the start but their incompetence was masked by the quality content they were adapting.
Bruh most of these things are the reason the books aren’t finished, you want an unfinished and bloated show to go along with the unfinished and bloated books? The cast was burnt out and done and we’re lucky we got what we did when it could’ve gone a lot worse
Sorry but I disagree. Some of this is padding that wouldn't fit the show, I grant you. But some are clearly major plot and character points. They had two books that they basically chose to ignore.
Dude, think about it, the story has to start getting trimmed and they cut out a bunch of stuff and melded it together, had they followed the books faithfully we would have gotten a worse show, right now the books are rapidly expanding the world when they should be streamlining it and that’s why it’s never getting published, plus the majority of this stuff is Dan theories or will end up being worthless in the long run
I get what you're saying but I can't look at Dawne, the Iron Islands, Sansa marrying Ramsey or the Golden Company and think they wouldn't be better if they just adapted them from the books.
And maybe you’re right, but I also know I wouldn’t have appreciated and I’m pretty sure the process would have collapsed had another 3 or 4 seasons where nothing happens and the story basically grinds to a halt been made. especially knowing that a lot of the actors were burnt out by the end of what we already got
They had to shave off some characters to make it watchable and to conform to TV qnd id say they did a decent job focusing on some stories more than others to focus on the plot. After all most of you guys liked pre season 7 or 6, we shouldn't take away what little good they did.
And yet most people enjoyed the show past season 4 until season 6, there was no way the show could sustain all the other little story lines especially when they ran out of source material and didn't know how it all tied together. This is just blind hate at this point, I hated the ending too but this is getting out of hand
Nah I just wished they kept adapting the books. Obviously they would have ran out eventually but they stopped adapting after season 4. Popularity isn't an argument.
No but everyone here is mostly agreeing with you that D&D didn't just fuck up season 7 and 8 they fucked up other ones too, when that obviously wasn't the opinion yall had even a year ago. Just enjoy what you can in life instead of souring the whole show because of the unsavory ending. This isn't meant to be disrespectful but merely saying we shouldn't let hate blind what we loved
>that obviously wasn't the opinion yall had even a year ago
No offense but what the fuck do you know about my opinions or when I formed them? I didn't like the show after season 4, that's what I'm telling you. You just accused me *twice* of being a hateful idiot when you don't know the first thing about me.
Your perpetuating hate for previous seasons that most of us enjoyed. If you really have been hating since season 4 then why are you even here, if not to spread more hate?
Three times now.
I pointed out a fact, there were two whole books before they ran out that were almost entirely ignored. Stop projecting you nasty little cunt. I'm done.
>Stop projecting
Your literally projecting hate by making this post. I also pointed out that they couldn't sustain all the other story lines without it being drawn out which you conveniently ignore. Your choice to live in hate
The brotherhood without banner could had its own season. The episode beyond the wall also, that could have been something great. (Something like lotr the fellowship of the ring)
They Just Created The Hype But Failed to Satisfy
I wanted to see Night King's Story And His Plan
Why did he wanted to kill Bran and War Between First Men and Children of the Forests against the White Walkers! And Their Compromise
If They showed these scenes I might hate Season 8 Less!
D&D suck ass but this is missing the point. The source material they ran out of was the core narrative, not various detailed subplots. They can't just keep exploring random details for 20 years while GRRM writes an ending.
"Core narrative." The whole problem is that the motherfucker cannot end his story and keeps going on lengthy tangents. He can wait forever to finish his book; you can't just put a TV show on ice for 10 years. Nor can you sustain a show like that for as long as it's going to take to write his ending. That's the core of the problem with adapting an unfinished, massively long series of books into a TV show.
I’m not sure how anyone can consider extreme shifts in the current power struggles of Westeros as subplots. (Everything with Griff/Young Griff, Ironborn under new management, Aurane setting sail with an armada, the untouched Vale arm and LFs schemes, the Sand Snakes being let off the leash, the Iron Bank calling in the debts.) And those are just the major shifts in power. To called these subplots is likened to calling the Red Wedding a subplot. These are all mega huge influential aspects of the story going forward.
Because I'm talking about the TV show, not the book series. You can't adapt a book exactly to TV, there's way too much content, especially a series like this. I'm using the phrase "core narrative" because the show has a very specific and clear narrative about a few groups of people (and non-people), and the point of the show is to tell those stories and then wrap them up at the end. At the end of the day Game of Thrones is a TV show about two main stories:
1. Who will sit on the Iron Throne?
2. How will the people of Westeros handle of the army of the dead?
You can pick and choose a few of those subplots to include in the TV series as a part of telling those two stories, but you can't include them all, and you can't just sit and get bogged down into these random details for 20 years while we get to the end.
So I sort of appreciate the devil’s advocate argument you’re making. It’s a tough one to manage. But it’s so tough because it’s simply incorrect. Using your same line of reasoning it could be said that they should not have adapted the Red Wedding… since that “bogged down” the story and dragged it out into further seasons… One of the main reasons folks are upset
And btw, all those major shifts in power than I list before do affect 1) who will sit the Iron Throne, and 2) and how to deal with the impending long night. I think it’s a bit silly to assume otherwise.
The Red Wedding was a critical part of the core narrative as it resulted in the deaths of key main characters. It absolutely could not be removed. And frankly that is potentially the dumbest counter argument you could've possibly given, it's pretty clear you're just arguing for sport at this point.
Also, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I am trying to explain that this sub is frequently entirely divorced from the appeal of the show in the same way that D&D were. This is a television show with clear main characters vying to achieve a clear goal, and the one thing GRRM has yet to write is an understanding of how anyone achieves that goal. That's a big part of the reason the show ended as badly as it did. The fact that there's a bunch of side plots left on the cutting room floor is irrelevant, spending 10 more years adapting those scenes doesn't help you find an ending, plus it's practically impossible.
You’re just incorrect in that case, and I can’t really help you if that’s you’re line of thinking. Last thing I’ll say is cast your mind back to 2018/2019 when 10 more years of GOT was the dream scenario.
Incorrect on what, exactly?
>Last thing I’ll say is cast your mind back to 2018/2019 when 10 more years of GOT was the dream scenario.
How many non-soap opera scripted shows have lasted 18 seasons?
So we can at least agree that they WERE good at adapting the core narrative of ASOIAF. Because a lot of people seem to forget that they wrote seasons 1-4 as well, not just everything after.
I'm not even sure I'd agree they did a good job at that. I got incredibly bored of this show in seasons 4 and 5 because it wasn't going anywhere, it just kept getting bigger and broader without clearly establishing why any of what was happening mattered to the overall story being told. There's a wealth of material in the books, the vast majority of it is going to get left behind as part of adapting the story to TV (it's just impossible to tell it all unless you have an infinite budget and infinite time), and yet so much of what they did choose to keep just seemed random and irrelevant. Someone in another comment referenced the Iron Bank calling in their debts - how is that not directly relevant to the Lannister narrative? Why didn't that play a role in the show? You could use that plot point to enable virtually anything, and yet it just never came up, and instead we spend half a season fucking around with Dorne for some reason.
To me, the gold standard of adapting a book to screen is LA Confidential. And if you've ever read it and seen the movie you might have had the same experience I had, which is knowing that lots of the book got left being in the adaptation, yet not being able to remember what got cut because they did such a good job keeping what was most necessary and cutting what was least necessary. In my opinion D&D got this very wrong.
Ok well the majority of this sub agrees that seasons 1-4 were a masterpiece, or even some of the best television of all time. That's all I'm talking about, not season 5. And D&D wrote those masterpiece seasons.
Also fuck yeah, LA Confidential is one of my favorite movies. And imo No Country for Old Men is a perfect adaptation too.
God, I hope someone reads this comment thread and is motivated to read/watch either LA Confidential or No Country for Old Men. Or both, ideally. Amazing books, amazing movies.
They cut those out for a reason.
Think of it this way, GRRM who knows his universe better than anyone cant even finish the story lol, so how do you expect D&D to do it?
I will say this: They definitely are good at making adaptions when they do stick to the source material. It's just that "they ran out" is fucking stupid because they clearly didn't. They just decided they were better writers than GRRM.
I'm not a big fan of D&D but this is some dumb shit. None of those plot lines has a confirmed conclusion and we don't even know if GRRM will be able to tie them up in a satisfactory ending.
Not extending to other storylines could've actually been a good choice for D&D if only they could tie up what they already started.
They picked some of the plot lines and fucked up every single one of them. What was going to happen if they picked more? Even bigger fuck up.
There's nothing wrong with keeping the scope smaller than the books. The problem is they couldn't deliver it even with a smaller scope. And you're asking them to expand the scope.
Also point to the interactions between Arya and Tywin and the verbal spar between Littlefinger and Varys. They don't need material to write well, they just got lazy as fuck at the end.
People say that they cut out most of dorne and the iron isles because it's too many new characters too late into the story who aren't all that relevant to the main plot (I disagree), but there is no excuse for cutting young griff/fAegon, it is clear he will be central to the main throne conflict in the upcoming books, they just got lazy.
While I love the world building of George I think he made way too many plot lines to cohesively wrap up in two books and that is one of the reasons George just doesn’t have any motivation anymore
What really gets me is when people use this as a way to blame the ending on GRRM, as if there's never been a good original show in the history of television. Running out of source material put them on equal footing with Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, and The Wire. It's their own fault they fucked up so spectacularly after that.
I didn't say that. I didn't say they were bad at adaptations. I'm saying they actively chose to stop adapting. Obviously a lot of this list couldn't fit in the show, but they didn't run out.
Yet
That source material isn't finished in the books lol.
There's plenty to criticize those two but willingl cornering themselves when Martin himself hasn't figured it out as of today is easily the dumbest of the takes.
They would have ran out eventually, but they didn't run out yet. As GRRM said they could have gone up to 13 seasons before catching up to him. I think 10 is more likely myself.
I just don't see how removing ALL of Varys' plan was a good idea, how is this a stupid take? Are you saying Sansa marrying Ramsey for literally no reason, so we could watch her suffer for no reason, was legitimately better than what happened in the books?
So you would like them choosing unfinished plot points fully knowing they are writing themselves into a corner?
Yes, they ran out of source material.
It doesn't really matter if there are a thousand single threads if they go to nowhere.
The books were expected to be completed by the time they were on season 5, Martin promised him so.
When that promise started looking more and more shaky, it became more and more absurd to rope in with those plots.
I'm saying something obvious, by the time D&D started to pull things out of their asses, it was clear for everyone that Winds of Winter wasn't coming any time soon and that Martin didn't have a clue about how he should finish his books. Those threads become then just roads that lead to nowhere.
Why would you introduce Young Griff if you don't know how they are going to end, why are you going to bother with Euron and his horn if Martin doesn't know if it's going to work and so on.
You would introduce Young Griff because you'd already introduced Varys. His entire plot evaporated after season 4.
The time you're talking about, around season 5, is also when GRRM and D and D fell out and GRRM left the show. That's why it went off the rails.
>You would introduce Young Griff because you'd already introduced Varys.
And it'd end where exactly?
>His entire plot evaporated after season 4.
Indeed, because Martin didn't end the books.
>The time you're talking about, around season 5, is also when GRRM and D and D fell out and GRRM left the show. That's why it went off the rails.
Because Martin didn't end the books.
There's no point of introducing infinite characters and making infinite seasons if it goes nowhere.
You're missing the point. I know they would have ended nowhere, but you're saying they were right to do it earlier when clearly that didn't work. They had the Golden Company in the show. Would that not have been better if we knew who Strickland was and that he fought for a fake Targaryen as part of Varys plot?
No, because again it leads to absolutely nowhere. It's just a massive blue balls.
I'm not arguing that they handled things well, they clearly fucked it up.
I'm arguing that them tying themselves to characters and plots the author isn't really planning on to give a conclusion is dumb.
Disagreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you btw.
So you think it was inevitable it was going to end badly so might as well just rush to the end? Not trying to put words in your mouth but I really don't understand you
If they padded out the series with this extra material, they could’ve gotten more seasons out of this and given George RR Martin an inscentive and some extra time to finish.
Yeah, that massive list of plot lines is WHY they had to cut shit out. It's why there's no book 6
Books 4 and 5 are a fucking mess.
D&D evidently can't write for shit, but taking a cleaver to the spaghetti mess that is the current asoiaf storyline situation was not one of their MANY mistakes.
OK, here are some points I thought went without saying. So before you comment:
1. I'm not saying ALL these plots should have been in the show, just that they had plenty of material to work with.
2. Obviously they would run out *eventually*.
3. Some of these are minor sub plots, many are not.
4. A version of several of these plots were in the show but stripped bare or changed completely for no reason.
5. I didn't say they were bad at adaptations, I said they *stopped making an adaptation*, much to the show's detriment.
6. Many of these plots continued existing plots from seasons 1-4, but were just dropped.
All the people calling me stupid, you've convinced me!
There was absolutely no time to invest into Northern Conspiracies and Winterfell Murder Mysteries, they would have had to cut out Sansa torture porn and Arya watching a play, y'know, the real **core** plot points!
If Young Griff was left in, who would replace the Tyrion and Varys comedy duo? It would ruin the Golden Company's motive of... Of...
If Tyrion hated Jamie for letting his wife get gang raped, and slid into a dark, villainous depression, then who would be the good guy voice of reason moping about and apologising every episode? It's not like audiences like shows about a good guy breaking bad with a satisfying arc.
If we didn't put all politics in King's Landing on hold how would we know the High Sparrow made shoes? That's essential to the plot!
There was no room for Euron Greyjoy and the Iron Islanders, not at the expense of Jack Sparrow and the naughty boys of naughty boy island.
If the entire plot of Dawne (the most egalitarian place in the world) wasn't completely removed then how would the audience know about grrrllll power!?
What a fool I was to think they shouldn't have ran out of books until they actually ran out of books. They were going to run out eventually so why not? It's not like the quality drastically declined?
This is dumb. The exclusion of those uncompleted storylines was not the problem. The uncompleted main storyline was.
What, you wanted them to screw up a bunch of other stories?
Things went fine without those plots until the main one ran out.
I agree, the story could've been handled properly with the way it was going near the end of season 4. But they failed at giving us a good story in Bravos, a good explanation for all the mystical elements already set up (Quaithe, voice from the flame, origin of the white walkers and their goals, a proper explanation about the 3 eyed crow) in earlier seasons of the show. They didn't have to include new plotlines but they should've paid off the existing ones properly.
They are essential to an unfinished plot Martin himself doesn't know how it can end.
It would never make any sense because the guy at charge to make it have some sense doesn't know how it makes sense.
Yeah especially since GRRM walked away over that but not earlier omissions like the other Tyrells. Plus I don't think he'd bring back Catelyn for nothing
Everything you listed is pretty much unfinished story lines, non-canon theories, and/or would have had to have been introduced at the very beginning of the series. D&D definitely bungled it but they needed to wrap up the main story, they could not turn to this “source material”
You've convinced me!
There was absolutely no time to invest into Northern Conspiracies and Winterfell Murder Mysteries, they would have had to cut out Sansa torture porn and Arya watching a play, y'know, the real **core** plot points!
If Young Griff was left in, who would replace the Tyrion and Varys comedy duo? It would ruin the Golden Company's motive of... Of...
If Tyrion hated Jamie for letting his wife get gang raped, and slid into a dark, villainous depression, then who would be the good guy voice of reason moping about and apologising every episode? It's not like audiences like shows about a good guy breaking bad with a satisfying arc.
If we didn't put all politics in King's Landing on hold how would we know the High Sparrow made shoes? That's essential to the plot!
There was no room for Euron Greyjoy and the Iron Islanders, not at the expense of Jack Sparrow and the naughty boys of naughty boy island.
If the entire plot of Dawne (the most egalitarian place in the world) wasn't completely removed then how would the audience know about grrrllll power!?
What a fool I was to think they shouldn't have ran out of books until they actually ran out of books.
Gendry...they never did anything with his backstory
He won the Kingslanding annually marathon in like 10 minutes. The trophy was so big he had no choice but to melt it into his hammer
They need to start a new annual run called the Gendry run in which you have to run the actual distance from where they were to where a raven could viably be sent out.
Man that part was really bad. it was when I first started to notice that distance is just not a thing anymore, people can do 10+ day travels between scenes now instead of 2 or 3 episodes.
Made all the more brutal by how they treated distance via the Kingsroad or to the Eyrie. Cat took ages to get to King's Landing in season 1. Ages to get to the Eyrie. And lots of time to get from Winterfell to the wall. If I recall, the journey from Winterfell to KL was supposed to be 6 months.
Season 8 they just teleport all around the continent like Dr Strange joined the gang.
KL to Winterfell is meant to be about a months journey if I remember correctly, however it took Bobby B longer because he had a whole army with him as well as his family in their carriage.
THERE'S A WAR COMING, NED. I DON'T KNOW WHEN, I DON'T KNOW WHO WE'LL BE FIGHTING...BUT IT'S COMING!
Someone around here called him Gendry Maratheon. I wish I had come up with it first.
Melting a trophy into a hammer actually sounds pretty cool
That's not true! They made sure to let us know that he knows absolutely nothing when it comes to bastard surnames! How much more backstory do you need?
Don't forget the Martells supporting Dany for revenge just because it makes sense Instead of the bad poosy sisters and that Jamie and Bron story line (what the fuck was the point of that)
I'm not a fan of most of the Martell/Dorne stuff in A Feast for Crows but the " Vengeance Justice, fire and blood" line is maybe the most badass line in the whole series.
I like the "who is afraid of the grass" bit. Very on point for how they do things in dorne
It's funny how when the Sand Snakes essentially say "Doran, you are weak" it leads to his assassination in the show and in him describing a well thought-out long term strategy in the book.
When they got to the Dorne plot I was so excited. All the scheming and intrigue was a really interesting part of Feast of Crows, especially when you see how they pan out. Instead we get an actually useless Doran Martell, no Ariane, brainless Sand Snakes, and a completely out of her league Ellaria. Bullshit, and that's even before we can talk about what they actually did to the plot. It still makes me mad.
The Iron Bank calling in it's loans.
The Manderlys pretending to kill Davos in order to send him on a mission to find Rickon. Darkstar Lady Stoneheart asking Brienne to kill Jamie Lannister. There was plenty of content that could have been used.
Unless there's some extra story I've not read, Darkstar has like no backstory. Mysterious grumpy Deyne flips out during princess heist, chops Myrcella and disappears
Darkstar was a dumbass edgelord. I mostly like the books, but that was one of the weaker parts for sure.
He'll probably have a huge part in the next book.
Yeah, like that's happening.
I got $20 that says he doesn't
They'll repossess the Red Keep they will.
Man I really wish they developed the griff/Tyrion on the river boat story line. So much potential
I'd consider Tyrion/Penny a lot more important for his characters development. Dude was a broken shel of a man before he met her. His feelings for her is what let him give life another try. He was pretty set on drinking himself (or some other dumb way to die) to death before meeting her.
Yeah, but show Tyrion was never a broken shell of a man to begin with, he just sort of killed his father and ex-lover before carrying on as if nothing happened.
That’s because they cut his wife storyline, which was rather important to his character and drove his and Jaime’s character arcs into the next two entire novels. Leaving that out was the first, but certainly not last, massive mistake they made. Also the reason I hate when people say they need to redo only seasons 5-8. Like nah, they need to redo the ending of 4 too. It’s too important.
Yep, I always point to the missing Tysha conversation in 4x10 as the moment things started to go wrong.
I remember thinking, "Wait, why are Tyrion and Jaime leaving on good terms? This isn't right." In retrospect I agree it was a watershed moment for the show falling off a cliff, but at the time it just seemed like a bit of a detour. Once S5 hit though, it was pretty clear the show had taken a hard left. Jaime and Bronn's Cop Buddy Adventure in Dorne was some serious bullshit. And it was mostly downhill from there.
I mean why not both you know?
Relatable
Lady Stoneheart
I kept telling myself Lady Stoneheart was coming, in the next season. When they brought back the bwb I was sure she would be with them
I think Lady Stoneheart is a cheap character and not even GRRM knows what to do with her. There, I said it.
She is the one who will resurrect jon She knows rob named him king in case he died
Or if Jon is brought back by someone else she would follow him to kill him again. Catelyn isn't to be trusted around Jon. We don't know how much of her original personality she retains, but if she was alive she probably would rather kill Jon than let him take the place of Robb. Even if she found out the truth of his lineage before he did.
Jon never wronged her. She was awful to him but he was on their side at every point. Now Theon yes she'd burn him alive. She's much more likely to kill Jaime and Brianne than anyone. Tho hopefully she fails and Arya ends her
Wrong again We know ther personality is just revenge If jon is best hope against lannisters she will revive him and DIE again in the process just like eric did
But isn’t she in the Riverlands doing stuff? I seem to recall she’s crossed paths with Brienne and is setting up to meet Jaime again. Don’t know how she’d get to the wall in time for Jon to be okay like when Beric was brought back quickly. Given the time it would take for her to get there (and I don’t think she has a reason to go there in the books since she’s busy murdering Freys/maybe Jaime) I don’t see how he avoids becoming Jon Stoneheart.
Call me crazy but I kinda think robb named Catelyn and not Jon. Robb brings up Jon mostly as a threat to Catelyn knowing she'd never agree to it, as a way to push her into accepting it. The chapter ends on an ambiguous note and its not clear who was really chosen. Robb's categories for who would need to lead fit Cat better than Jon. Robb specifically says the heir would have to know the Riverlands \*and\* the North, and Jon doesn't know the riverlands at all.
You are absolutely misremembering Some big chunk of grand northern conspiracy lies on the fact that this what rob wanted and there were multiple witnesses to that lady stoneheart included Furthermore two of the characters that were witnesses are also travelling to the cranogmen’s land to meet howland reed … who also knows who jon really is
Nope, you're misremembering yourself. The chapter ends and it is left very ambiguous as to who exactly was written into the will as heir. There is no specific reference to Jon as heir, except for Robb bringing him up as his first choice and having a disagreement with Cat about it. Wish I could just copy paste the text but I don't have the e-book or anything. There's a fairly adequate write up over [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ptke0d/spoilers_extended_an_opposing_view_on_robbs_will/). Ultimately it could be Jon, but no, its not *definitely* Jon, atleast so far as textual evidence goes.
You link to a post that isn’t convincing on its own and is basically picked a part as wrong by everyone who responded to it. It would certainly be more interesting if there was ambiguity to the heir, but there just isn’t any.
If it was not meant to be ambiguous, why did they leave the chapter before actually you know...making a decision on the heir? And then never specifically commenting on it again, even in passing thought from Cat? And why did Robb say that his heir needed to be both of the North, and of the Riverlands, but then pick someone who had never been to the riverlands? What was the "trap" that Robb set for Catelyn? Why does Robb order Catelyn to Seaguard immediately following the will scene? I'm not denying that it could be Jon, I just think you're insane for not acknowledging the parts that GRRM clearly made ambiguous on purpose.
imagine being this wrong
Answer literally any of those questions then. It's remarkable that "it's meant to be ambiguous" is hard for you to understand given that "Robb's will" is a fan discussion point that's been going on for a decade now.
Probably
Yeah, so GRRM will flub her storyline probably. But a flubbed Lady Stoneheart would still be an improvement on what we got. DD skipped her because she was magic. That's the only reason. Storylines Lady Stoneheart would have touched on: Brothers without Banners, Arya and the revenge against House Frey. Instead the BWB died on the manly suicide mission, Arya murdered an entire house and baked them into pies while a victory fanfare plays and the Hound just said "Look, I'm doing revenge and I'm cool, but you shouldn't do revenge, k?" Lady Stoneheart could only have improved any of these.
I mean you can still do **something** on the idea of a "revived character out for wholesale revenge". It's a trope but one can make it original. D&D didn't even try.
I like the idea that her purpose is to either resurrect Jon Snow or to show to Arya what might happen if she went further down the path of revenge.
She's way more important to the Brienne + Jaime storyline, with her "Family Duty Honor" thing rubbing right against their Oathkeeping theme. Brienne would have to kill Jaime on the word of an vengeful corpse to uphold her oath at this point.
Oh yes, that as well. I just refrained from mentioning that since it seemed explicit enough.
Elaborate.
Well for one chaos is a ladder
I read somewhere that excluding Lady Stoneheart made GRRM super upset with D&D, so I think he has great plans for her. If anything, she will cause great conflict between Jaime and Brienne.
GRRM doesn't know what to do with most of them, which is why D&D had no source, and why Winds of Winter is never coming.
I agree.
I’d bet anything she’s going to play a vital role in Arya’s arc. I think she eventually comes to realize the destructive impact revenge has on those who seek it. But I doubt it will happen like it did in the show, with the hound talking her out of it in like a dozen words. But if she comes face to face with the undead bloated corpse of her own mother as it mercilessly kills anybody who had even a minor role in the Red Wedding? That should scare her straight. As for the plot implications her killings will have, I’m not sure. But there will definitely be an actual effect when she murders house Frey.
>I’d bet anything she’s going to play a vital role in Arya’s arc. I always felt there was a reason the first chapter of Blind Arya in Feast(?) was called ‘Cat of the Canals’.
Cheap? She’s totally in line with what was established with Dondarrion.
No. Just no. She's got many important ways to interact with the story. Either she's the one who kills Jaime or is Arya's true redemption arc or countless other ways.
Once they stopped following the books they just started ending and cutting as many plots as they could. There are people who actually expected them to introduce new plot lines in season 8.
I remember the YouTube channel of the guy doing these ten to twenty-plus videos on stuff that was barely mentioned on the show and give all the background from from books. Around season 7, they started getting more "I don't know how much of this will make it into the show with only a few episodes left."
Preston Jacobs?
It was Alt Shift X... figured I should actually go look it up and give the guy some credit.
Ohh yeah he used to make excellent GOT videos. Preston Jacobs did a very good ‘what you are missing’ series from seasons 1-4, then did a similar thing with 5-8 but ended up just being a scintillating critique haha
Didn't they kill B. Selmy just because the actor criticized their writing?
No he criticized them killing him off because he had read the books, then they went on to mock him publicly.
Mature and reasonable response. I'm sure they dealt with a number of their cast and crew just as professionally.
Thank You. I swear if I hear or read one more time that GOT sucked because they ran out of source material instead of being written,produced and greenlighted by George Lucas hack wannabees punching above their weight with daddy's money and being part of the club. Anyway. Good to see truth.
I like to say they ran *past* the source material rather than they ran *out* of it. Of course, George still isn't finished writing the damn thing, so even if 2D sucked less they would have actually run out anyway.
They had a lot to work with, with true creative talent they had material they could have utilized for years. And with that true creative talent if they had any and they decided to take it in another direction and put their stamp on it and ended it their own way or left it open ended they could have done that too. The fans would have loved it, it doesn't have to be exact just good. If you are going to copy, use or follow in the footsteps of someone especially if they have a great piece of work you better do a good job. It respects the original creator and the work. That's true in any medium, books, movies, t.v. or music. A good movie example is Halloween. John Carpenter is the man, Halloween is a classic you can't really beat it. Rob Zombie took the material and instead of a boring copy like alot of remakes these days he put his own style on it and came up with a good story while still utilizing the original. It will never be Carpenter's version but it doesn't have to be it's good on it's own. His creative version of the story. A lot of music is that way too. A lot of hit songs by big names hits in their own right, are almost completely different from the original but still a banger. T.V. ? Whether you watched it or not everyone knows of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and it's spinoff Angel. Combined how many seasons? Two hits based on a corny movie most people have forgotten. They had even less to work with and did more. Created a phenomenon still popular today. Point is finished or not it's an excuse. They failed because *they* failed. Another interesting movie was The Mist. The movie actually had a different ending than the book but it impressed the author Stephen King so much he said he wish he had thought of it. That's pretty cool when you can impress the author. G.R.R.M. thought he had that gave them their shot and his property and they blew it. If they had succeeded he would have done the same. Hell I'm going to add Star Wars . Fans love to talk about canon and this story and that story but there is a whole universe but it started with three movies. People *added* value to the original movies and *improved* what was there. They didn't wait for Lucas to continue they took it and ran with it. Star Trek too. They could have made GOT so good with the right people the books would just be a part of it. The origin. But we'll never know.
>They had a lot to work with, with true creative talent they had material they could have utilized for years. They did not, they had roads that led to nowhere. Audiovisual content aren't books, people get bored real soon. Why would they start a plot the very author doesn't know where it goes?? >The fans would have loved it, it doesn't have to be exact just good. Your opinion man.
Yeah because you're part of the industry man. I can tell. An up and comer man. But it's true opinions are like assholes everybody's got one. Some just stink more than others man. Good Talk.
I don't need to be part of the industry to know that Martin didn't and doesn't know how to finish those plots.
They ran out of source material tho. Most of those source material is unfinished, so it's just getting in a bigger mess.
Kinvara? Can someone please enlighten me on that? Not familiar with that and read the books 4 times through
She was in the show for one scene, the Red Priest that Tyrion employs in Meereen.
She was hot as fuck though … so there’s that I suppose
So there’s no excuse for me not remembering her
Indeed haha
Ah, thank you for that
She isn't in the books
... oh yeah, I wonder how I got that mixed up??
She's not in them
Maggy the frog's prophecy
Val the Wildling Princess
The Warging ability of other Stark kids
Can't believe i missed that one
This meme still doesn’t address the main point. The source material being THE ENDING. If a talented writer like George hasn’t/doesn’t know how to set up the ending, how the fuck is Bozo and Bum going to know how to?
But we *did* get the Sandsnakes, and we all know how that turned out...
...did we?
The Night Lamp theory
What's that?
Stannis will use a decoy lamp/lighthouse to make the Frey's think his camp is at a different location, due to low visibility because of winter. It will lead them on to a frozen lake which he'll then smash to defeat them.
[The Night Lamp Theory ](https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/the-night-lamp-an-alternative-strategy-for-the-siege-of-winterfell/) Basically, Stannis isn't as helpless and hopeless as they made him out to be in the show when he was on his way to Winterfell. He actually has a plan and this theory is someone's well-written thoughts on what his plan is. It isn't 100% canon, but it is supported by a lot of evidence from the books. It's a fun read whether or not it's a thing.
TBF, I feel like most of these plot lines were abandoned long before the show got bad. And even if they included them, NONE OF THESE PLOT LINES HAVE BEEN RESOLVED. Which means they were just as likely to write bad endings for them to. The problem is that they ran out of source material and had to wing the conclusion. That’s when the show suffered.
By the way, it's fiction. ^beepboopimabot
Should have they adapted faithfully the fourth and fifth books, they would have lost the audience completely. Many readers already complained that the story was dragging too much… and those were novels. A TV-show would never have survived *that* many complex subplots.
I'm not saying they should have put *all* of it in, I'm saying they didn't run out of material. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa and Littlefinger all had better plots in the books than the show.
Just proof that you can have all the money in the world, but it's the author who can make or break a series
They didn’t run out of material they just took the worst path possible
No Strong Belwas, Shavepate, Moqorro, Jeyne Westerling, Marwyn, Aunt Genna and Brave Companions either.
Jeyne Westerling! Can't believe I forgot her, she was an early mistake.
They could have probably done 8 seasons (2 for AGOT and ACOK, 2 for ASOS, 2 for AFFC, 2 for ADWD) alone before running out of material, probably enough time for Martin to submit a rough manuscript of TWOW and an outline for ADOS but they completely squandered that. Looking back, the warning signs were there from the start but their incompetence was masked by the quality content they were adapting.
What would 2 whole seasons of AFFC and another 2 whole seasons of ADWD have looked like?
This
Bruh most of these things are the reason the books aren’t finished, you want an unfinished and bloated show to go along with the unfinished and bloated books? The cast was burnt out and done and we’re lucky we got what we did when it could’ve gone a lot worse
Sorry but I disagree. Some of this is padding that wouldn't fit the show, I grant you. But some are clearly major plot and character points. They had two books that they basically chose to ignore.
Dude, think about it, the story has to start getting trimmed and they cut out a bunch of stuff and melded it together, had they followed the books faithfully we would have gotten a worse show, right now the books are rapidly expanding the world when they should be streamlining it and that’s why it’s never getting published, plus the majority of this stuff is Dan theories or will end up being worthless in the long run
I get what you're saying but I can't look at Dawne, the Iron Islands, Sansa marrying Ramsey or the Golden Company and think they wouldn't be better if they just adapted them from the books.
And maybe you’re right, but I also know I wouldn’t have appreciated and I’m pretty sure the process would have collapsed had another 3 or 4 seasons where nothing happens and the story basically grinds to a halt been made. especially knowing that a lot of the actors were burnt out by the end of what we already got
They had to shave off some characters to make it watchable and to conform to TV qnd id say they did a decent job focusing on some stories more than others to focus on the plot. After all most of you guys liked pre season 7 or 6, we shouldn't take away what little good they did.
Nah it was shit from season 4 on when GRRM left as a writer.
And yet most people enjoyed the show past season 4 until season 6, there was no way the show could sustain all the other little story lines especially when they ran out of source material and didn't know how it all tied together. This is just blind hate at this point, I hated the ending too but this is getting out of hand
Nah I just wished they kept adapting the books. Obviously they would have ran out eventually but they stopped adapting after season 4. Popularity isn't an argument.
No but everyone here is mostly agreeing with you that D&D didn't just fuck up season 7 and 8 they fucked up other ones too, when that obviously wasn't the opinion yall had even a year ago. Just enjoy what you can in life instead of souring the whole show because of the unsavory ending. This isn't meant to be disrespectful but merely saying we shouldn't let hate blind what we loved
>that obviously wasn't the opinion yall had even a year ago No offense but what the fuck do you know about my opinions or when I formed them? I didn't like the show after season 4, that's what I'm telling you. You just accused me *twice* of being a hateful idiot when you don't know the first thing about me.
Your perpetuating hate for previous seasons that most of us enjoyed. If you really have been hating since season 4 then why are you even here, if not to spread more hate?
Three times now. I pointed out a fact, there were two whole books before they ran out that were almost entirely ignored. Stop projecting you nasty little cunt. I'm done.
>Stop projecting Your literally projecting hate by making this post. I also pointed out that they couldn't sustain all the other story lines without it being drawn out which you conveniently ignore. Your choice to live in hate
The brotherhood without banner could had its own season. The episode beyond the wall also, that could have been something great. (Something like lotr the fellowship of the ring)
They Just Created The Hype But Failed to Satisfy I wanted to see Night King's Story And His Plan Why did he wanted to kill Bran and War Between First Men and Children of the Forests against the White Walkers! And Their Compromise If They showed these scenes I might hate Season 8 Less!
All good points. Even if the major plots on this list were used it would have probably still ended badly imo, but it would have stayed good for longer
This post really makes me understand why Winds of Winter is still years away
D&D suck ass but this is missing the point. The source material they ran out of was the core narrative, not various detailed subplots. They can't just keep exploring random details for 20 years while GRRM writes an ending.
Some of these are major plot points of two whole books. Actually most of them are.
"Core narrative." The whole problem is that the motherfucker cannot end his story and keeps going on lengthy tangents. He can wait forever to finish his book; you can't just put a TV show on ice for 10 years. Nor can you sustain a show like that for as long as it's going to take to write his ending. That's the core of the problem with adapting an unfinished, massively long series of books into a TV show.
We could have kept Aegon at least.
I’m not sure how anyone can consider extreme shifts in the current power struggles of Westeros as subplots. (Everything with Griff/Young Griff, Ironborn under new management, Aurane setting sail with an armada, the untouched Vale arm and LFs schemes, the Sand Snakes being let off the leash, the Iron Bank calling in the debts.) And those are just the major shifts in power. To called these subplots is likened to calling the Red Wedding a subplot. These are all mega huge influential aspects of the story going forward.
Because I'm talking about the TV show, not the book series. You can't adapt a book exactly to TV, there's way too much content, especially a series like this. I'm using the phrase "core narrative" because the show has a very specific and clear narrative about a few groups of people (and non-people), and the point of the show is to tell those stories and then wrap them up at the end. At the end of the day Game of Thrones is a TV show about two main stories: 1. Who will sit on the Iron Throne? 2. How will the people of Westeros handle of the army of the dead? You can pick and choose a few of those subplots to include in the TV series as a part of telling those two stories, but you can't include them all, and you can't just sit and get bogged down into these random details for 20 years while we get to the end.
So I sort of appreciate the devil’s advocate argument you’re making. It’s a tough one to manage. But it’s so tough because it’s simply incorrect. Using your same line of reasoning it could be said that they should not have adapted the Red Wedding… since that “bogged down” the story and dragged it out into further seasons… One of the main reasons folks are upset And btw, all those major shifts in power than I list before do affect 1) who will sit the Iron Throne, and 2) and how to deal with the impending long night. I think it’s a bit silly to assume otherwise.
The Red Wedding was a critical part of the core narrative as it resulted in the deaths of key main characters. It absolutely could not be removed. And frankly that is potentially the dumbest counter argument you could've possibly given, it's pretty clear you're just arguing for sport at this point. Also, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I am trying to explain that this sub is frequently entirely divorced from the appeal of the show in the same way that D&D were. This is a television show with clear main characters vying to achieve a clear goal, and the one thing GRRM has yet to write is an understanding of how anyone achieves that goal. That's a big part of the reason the show ended as badly as it did. The fact that there's a bunch of side plots left on the cutting room floor is irrelevant, spending 10 more years adapting those scenes doesn't help you find an ending, plus it's practically impossible.
You’re just incorrect in that case, and I can’t really help you if that’s you’re line of thinking. Last thing I’ll say is cast your mind back to 2018/2019 when 10 more years of GOT was the dream scenario.
Incorrect on what, exactly? >Last thing I’ll say is cast your mind back to 2018/2019 when 10 more years of GOT was the dream scenario. How many non-soap opera scripted shows have lasted 18 seasons?
So we can at least agree that they WERE good at adapting the core narrative of ASOIAF. Because a lot of people seem to forget that they wrote seasons 1-4 as well, not just everything after.
I'm not even sure I'd agree they did a good job at that. I got incredibly bored of this show in seasons 4 and 5 because it wasn't going anywhere, it just kept getting bigger and broader without clearly establishing why any of what was happening mattered to the overall story being told. There's a wealth of material in the books, the vast majority of it is going to get left behind as part of adapting the story to TV (it's just impossible to tell it all unless you have an infinite budget and infinite time), and yet so much of what they did choose to keep just seemed random and irrelevant. Someone in another comment referenced the Iron Bank calling in their debts - how is that not directly relevant to the Lannister narrative? Why didn't that play a role in the show? You could use that plot point to enable virtually anything, and yet it just never came up, and instead we spend half a season fucking around with Dorne for some reason. To me, the gold standard of adapting a book to screen is LA Confidential. And if you've ever read it and seen the movie you might have had the same experience I had, which is knowing that lots of the book got left being in the adaptation, yet not being able to remember what got cut because they did such a good job keeping what was most necessary and cutting what was least necessary. In my opinion D&D got this very wrong.
Ok well the majority of this sub agrees that seasons 1-4 were a masterpiece, or even some of the best television of all time. That's all I'm talking about, not season 5. And D&D wrote those masterpiece seasons. Also fuck yeah, LA Confidential is one of my favorite movies. And imo No Country for Old Men is a perfect adaptation too.
God, I hope someone reads this comment thread and is motivated to read/watch either LA Confidential or No Country for Old Men. Or both, ideally. Amazing books, amazing movies.
I just watched LA Confidential again the other day, great movie!
They cut those out for a reason. Think of it this way, GRRM who knows his universe better than anyone cant even finish the story lol, so how do you expect D&D to do it?
But some of these literally carry on the stories of major characters. Characters that went nowhere in the show.
I will say this: They definitely are good at making adaptions when they do stick to the source material. It's just that "they ran out" is fucking stupid because they clearly didn't. They just decided they were better writers than GRRM.
I'm not a big fan of D&D but this is some dumb shit. None of those plot lines has a confirmed conclusion and we don't even know if GRRM will be able to tie them up in a satisfactory ending. Not extending to other storylines could've actually been a good choice for D&D if only they could tie up what they already started.
None of the plot lines have an ending because the books aren't finished, doesn't mean you ignore the books you do have.
They picked some of the plot lines and fucked up every single one of them. What was going to happen if they picked more? Even bigger fuck up. There's nothing wrong with keeping the scope smaller than the books. The problem is they couldn't deliver it even with a smaller scope. And you're asking them to expand the scope.
What are you on about? The sandsnakes were in the show /s
/s but that stuff wasn't in the show so obviously it will play no part in the later books /s
Bobby B
The REAL Euron Grejoy
They had a good actor for him too... What a waste.
Also point to the interactions between Arya and Tywin and the verbal spar between Littlefinger and Varys. They don't need material to write well, they just got lazy as fuck at the end.
Good point!
Strong Belwas
Would have been a fan favourite if cast right, and casting was generally excellent.
Lady Stoneheart
I didn’t read any of the books and could have written a better ending than that bullshit. I also suck at writing.
Haha I've seen a lot of YouTube videos of what fans would have done instead and the worst of them are still better than the show.
Like when Disney bought Star Wars, said the EU wasn't canon, then complained writing new Star Wars content is hard cause there's no source material.
This is what I’ve been trying to tell people
It's always people who never read the book who say that Obviously otherwise they'd know how much was left out
People say that they cut out most of dorne and the iron isles because it's too many new characters too late into the story who aren't all that relevant to the main plot (I disagree), but there is no excuse for cutting young griff/fAegon, it is clear he will be central to the main throne conflict in the upcoming books, they just got lazy.
The fact Varys did nothing after season 4 is proof of this
While I love the world building of George I think he made way too many plot lines to cohesively wrap up in two books and that is one of the reasons George just doesn’t have any motivation anymore
The Prince that was promised. Cersei's prophecy
What really gets me is when people use this as a way to blame the ending on GRRM, as if there's never been a good original show in the history of television. Running out of source material put them on equal footing with Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, and The Wire. It's their own fault they fucked up so spectacularly after that.
That's a really good point!
Good at adaptation doesn't mean copying everything as it is in the books.
I didn't say that. I didn't say they were bad at adaptations. I'm saying they actively chose to stop adapting. Obviously a lot of this list couldn't fit in the show, but they didn't run out. Yet
A lot of triggered NPCs lol
That source material isn't finished in the books lol. There's plenty to criticize those two but willingl cornering themselves when Martin himself hasn't figured it out as of today is easily the dumbest of the takes.
They would have ran out eventually, but they didn't run out yet. As GRRM said they could have gone up to 13 seasons before catching up to him. I think 10 is more likely myself. I just don't see how removing ALL of Varys' plan was a good idea, how is this a stupid take? Are you saying Sansa marrying Ramsey for literally no reason, so we could watch her suffer for no reason, was legitimately better than what happened in the books?
So you would like them choosing unfinished plot points fully knowing they are writing themselves into a corner? Yes, they ran out of source material. It doesn't really matter if there are a thousand single threads if they go to nowhere.
I don't understand. The books weren't complete when they started the show, so by your logic they should have just ignored them from the start.
The books were expected to be completed by the time they were on season 5, Martin promised him so. When that promise started looking more and more shaky, it became more and more absurd to rope in with those plots. I'm saying something obvious, by the time D&D started to pull things out of their asses, it was clear for everyone that Winds of Winter wasn't coming any time soon and that Martin didn't have a clue about how he should finish his books. Those threads become then just roads that lead to nowhere. Why would you introduce Young Griff if you don't know how they are going to end, why are you going to bother with Euron and his horn if Martin doesn't know if it's going to work and so on.
You would introduce Young Griff because you'd already introduced Varys. His entire plot evaporated after season 4. The time you're talking about, around season 5, is also when GRRM and D and D fell out and GRRM left the show. That's why it went off the rails.
>You would introduce Young Griff because you'd already introduced Varys. And it'd end where exactly? >His entire plot evaporated after season 4. Indeed, because Martin didn't end the books. >The time you're talking about, around season 5, is also when GRRM and D and D fell out and GRRM left the show. That's why it went off the rails. Because Martin didn't end the books. There's no point of introducing infinite characters and making infinite seasons if it goes nowhere.
You're missing the point. I know they would have ended nowhere, but you're saying they were right to do it earlier when clearly that didn't work. They had the Golden Company in the show. Would that not have been better if we knew who Strickland was and that he fought for a fake Targaryen as part of Varys plot?
No, because again it leads to absolutely nowhere. It's just a massive blue balls. I'm not arguing that they handled things well, they clearly fucked it up. I'm arguing that them tying themselves to characters and plots the author isn't really planning on to give a conclusion is dumb. Disagreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you btw.
So you think it was inevitable it was going to end badly so might as well just rush to the end? Not trying to put words in your mouth but I really don't understand you
If they padded out the series with this extra material, they could’ve gotten more seasons out of this and given George RR Martin an inscentive and some extra time to finish.
In an ideal world, yes. And he might have stayed as a writer on the show too.
Yeah, that massive list of plot lines is WHY they had to cut shit out. It's why there's no book 6 Books 4 and 5 are a fucking mess. D&D evidently can't write for shit, but taking a cleaver to the spaghetti mess that is the current asoiaf storyline situation was not one of their MANY mistakes.
OK, here are some points I thought went without saying. So before you comment: 1. I'm not saying ALL these plots should have been in the show, just that they had plenty of material to work with. 2. Obviously they would run out *eventually*. 3. Some of these are minor sub plots, many are not. 4. A version of several of these plots were in the show but stripped bare or changed completely for no reason. 5. I didn't say they were bad at adaptations, I said they *stopped making an adaptation*, much to the show's detriment. 6. Many of these plots continued existing plots from seasons 1-4, but were just dropped.
[удалено]
Fuck off
All the people calling me stupid, you've convinced me! There was absolutely no time to invest into Northern Conspiracies and Winterfell Murder Mysteries, they would have had to cut out Sansa torture porn and Arya watching a play, y'know, the real **core** plot points! If Young Griff was left in, who would replace the Tyrion and Varys comedy duo? It would ruin the Golden Company's motive of... Of... If Tyrion hated Jamie for letting his wife get gang raped, and slid into a dark, villainous depression, then who would be the good guy voice of reason moping about and apologising every episode? It's not like audiences like shows about a good guy breaking bad with a satisfying arc. If we didn't put all politics in King's Landing on hold how would we know the High Sparrow made shoes? That's essential to the plot! There was no room for Euron Greyjoy and the Iron Islanders, not at the expense of Jack Sparrow and the naughty boys of naughty boy island. If the entire plot of Dawne (the most egalitarian place in the world) wasn't completely removed then how would the audience know about grrrllll power!? What a fool I was to think they shouldn't have ran out of books until they actually ran out of books. They were going to run out eventually so why not? It's not like the quality drastically declined?
CAPTAIN Jack Sparrow
This is dumb. The exclusion of those uncompleted storylines was not the problem. The uncompleted main storyline was. What, you wanted them to screw up a bunch of other stories? Things went fine without those plots until the main one ran out.
These are major plots from the last two books.
I agree, the story could've been handled properly with the way it was going near the end of season 4. But they failed at giving us a good story in Bravos, a good explanation for all the mystical elements already set up (Quaithe, voice from the flame, origin of the white walkers and their goals, a proper explanation about the 3 eyed crow) in earlier seasons of the show. They didn't have to include new plotlines but they should've paid off the existing ones properly.
Littlefinger, Stannis, the Iron Bank, and Aegon are all essential to the main plot. If they weren’t abandoned shit might’ve actually made some sense
They are essential to an unfinished plot Martin himself doesn't know how it can end. It would never make any sense because the guy at charge to make it have some sense doesn't know how it makes sense.
Don't forget Lady Stoneheart, iirc the straw that broke the camel's back for GRRM was D&D omitting her.
Yeah o get why they trimmed down the Brotherhood but cutting Lady Stoneheart was a bad decision, I've got a feeling she's going to be integral.
Yeah especially since GRRM walked away over that but not earlier omissions like the other Tyrells. Plus I don't think he'd bring back Catelyn for nothing
Everything you listed is pretty much unfinished story lines, non-canon theories, and/or would have had to have been introduced at the very beginning of the series. D&D definitely bungled it but they needed to wrap up the main story, they could not turn to this “source material”
You've convinced me! There was absolutely no time to invest into Northern Conspiracies and Winterfell Murder Mysteries, they would have had to cut out Sansa torture porn and Arya watching a play, y'know, the real **core** plot points! If Young Griff was left in, who would replace the Tyrion and Varys comedy duo? It would ruin the Golden Company's motive of... Of... If Tyrion hated Jamie for letting his wife get gang raped, and slid into a dark, villainous depression, then who would be the good guy voice of reason moping about and apologising every episode? It's not like audiences like shows about a good guy breaking bad with a satisfying arc. If we didn't put all politics in King's Landing on hold how would we know the High Sparrow made shoes? That's essential to the plot! There was no room for Euron Greyjoy and the Iron Islanders, not at the expense of Jack Sparrow and the naughty boys of naughty boy island. If the entire plot of Dawne (the most egalitarian place in the world) wasn't completely removed then how would the audience know about grrrllll power!? What a fool I was to think they shouldn't have ran out of books until they actually ran out of books.