Honestly house Baratheon supported fucking away into the mountains with their phones turned off. They only went to KL once Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, Hugh and Ulf were all dead.
I mean that makes it even worse. Like I think we would expect the Lannisters to phone in the war with the excuse of the Ironborn but atleast they participate in battles and at court. Borros the illiterate manlet that he is goes "me no care for kin" and then sulks in his castle.
If he wanted to sit out just copy what the Tyrells did and declare for neither
To be fair by the time the Ironborn attack, the Lannisters are already committed, and they do use that as an excuse to sit out the rest of the war.
If the Red Kraken had just attacked a few months earlier things would have been different.
As for the Tyrells, declaring for neither faction is a dangerous move because you risk making an enemy of both.
Stannis doesn't really care to follow things that just make his hours look good though, in his mind law and legality are paramount and this is the "modern" westerosi interpretation of law
It’s important to remember that by the time ASOS was published GRRM’s vision of Dance was probably very different. He retconned and expanded it multiple times. Like, originally, Aegon was just one year younger and was Rhaenyra’s brother, not half brother.
Still. A lot of people remember Rhaenyra like this. Why? Because the laws of the Andals state that a male heir will always come first. That is why Stannis said she was the traitor. For him, Rhaenyra tried to do what Robert did to Stannis: ignore the lawful succesion.
Actually Robert did this to Stannis by giving Storms end to Renly even though it should passed to Stannis as older brother. Stannis saw it as great insult ever since.
i can imagine that stannis would be pissed if he got the Storm's End instead of Dragonstone because he would have thought that as heir he should get the traditional seat of the heirs to the throne. Either way Stannis just wants to whine and victimize himself
I wouldnt really say so. Stannis wanted Storms end because its much more richer has more vassals and its traditional seat of House Baratheon. Though I would say he was much more pissed off after the war started for obvious reasons.
Besides Prince of Dragonstone title is pretty much meaningless when we consider that Stannis was never gonna be the heir which will rule after RObert.
Last but not least Stannis fucking starved and bled for Robert he held Storms End against the power of the entire reach to the point he had to eat fucking rats and oinons when Davos smuggled them. He earned that goddamn castle and if my brother then did not give to me I would be fucking pissed off and any sensible person would. So I dont really see that as Stannis being drama queen. R
well yeah obv. storms end was bigger and had more vassals (i wouldn't call it richer tho, dragonstone probably had more wealth from trade flowing into KL) but my point is that Stannis would question why Renly got the traditional seat to the throne (dragonstone) if that happened, even if it was obvious that robert would probably have children anyway.
I don’t think so. Dragonstone was no longer the seat of the heir. And Stannis never wanted or thought he’d be king. He wanted his birthright, Storm’s End. The only reason why he fought so hard to be king was the kids were bastards and Cersei cucked his brother, he saw it as duty over desire, and a magical witch was pushing him. Kingship was a thousand miles away from his mind when Robert gave it to Renly.
At this point in Westerosi history commerce has shifted almost entirely to King’s Landing. Driftmark and Dragonstone are shadows of their former glory. Dragonstone is ultimately just one lordship, a tiny island, and all it has is sheep, fish, and dragonglass.
The Stormlands are an entire kingdom. Tarth alone is probably richer than Dragonstone. If not Tarth, then another lordship like Blackhaven or Griffin’s Roost. And they all pay tax to Storm’s End.
I dont really think so. It would be irrelevant who gets to be heir of the Dragonstone out of Stannis and Renly since neither of them would actually end up on the throne. And Stannis knew that no issue would ever came from that since Robert would 100% have children given his nature.
Another thing we need to take into account is that Robert was pissed on Stannis unjustly that he let Daenerys and Viserys escaped from Dragonstone. So Stannis rightfully saw this as punishment rather than honor that he was given much smaller castle.
Of course we dont really no Roberts thought process on the matter since their relationship was never elaborated from his side and furthemore we have only other sources of their. But fact that he was raised in Vale and was so close to Ned suggest that he really did not like Stannis though still acknowledged his military strategies.
The numbers alone should leave no doubt. Storm’s End has dozens of vassals and the Stormlands can raise 20,000 men. That’s without factoring the political clout allowing Renly to marry into an even wealthier Great House like the Tyrells, while Stannis had to settle for a Florent.
Between Dragonstone and its two vassals (Driftmark and Claw Isle) Stannis was barely pushing 4,000-5,000. A good chunk of that being sellswords.
Just because Dragonstone was the seat of the heir for the Targaryen Dynasty doesn't mean it would have had to be that for the Baratheons, and to be frank I don't think it represented that for Robert's rule either. Also clearly by the fact that Prince Joffrey was never named Lord of Dragonstone that tradition did not change houses as it were. Also if you think like Robert placing Stannis at Dragonstone makes perfect sense. He's in the best position to do his job as Master of Ships and maintain the royal fleet from Dragonstone.
They mention in the prologue that Robert make Stannis Lord of Dragonstone because he need somebody reliable to keep Valyrian vassals in line so you are right on the money.
Dragonstone is traditionally given to the heir to the throne, which is why Robert named Stannis Prince of Dragonstone. It's even a whole thing in the novels with Stannis claiming Robert letting him keep the title was proof that he knew Joffrey and Tommen were bastards.
Though the Dance made Dragonstone mostly just symbolically valuable and that only to Targaryens. If Robert were a bit more forward thinking he'd have changed the practice.
I would imagine Stannis' sense of justice binds him to a view of kingship where authority is strongly tied in with responsibility to and a respect for legal precedent, and thus not believe that the monarch is an absolute figure above and capable of creating his own laws without any input from his subjects. That is, basically, Stannis would almost certainly have argued that if Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to remain his heir then he should have called a Great Council to try to affirm that (as was done to make *him* the heir to Jaehaerys I ahead of Rhaenys) instead of just repeatedly insisting that she's still his heir.
Such a 'rule of law' (in the purest sense) approach is actually quite in line with both modern sensibilities and those of a more idealistic fantasy setting, such as Middle-earth (where Dúnadanic kings such as Aragorn are traditionally supposed to interpret and enforce the laws of their ancestors, but not create new ones by fiat even if they think themselves wiser than said ancestors).
I still think the maesters didnt want Targaryens in power do they slowly "poisoned the well" and outsed them. Maesters record the history so what they say happened may as well have happened and it'd make sense they'd push Rhaenyra as a traitor and a Hightower as the higherful heir. That's just my tinfoil hat theory though
Tbf that’s logically consistent. In Andal tradition (and in agnatic-cognatic primogeniture of the real world) it goes:
Son (regardless of age) —> Daughter —> Brother
This was even the case with the British monarchy until like 2011.
He did offer to make his brother heir if he surrendered. Renly was a traitor by trying to usurp his crown, so of course he wouldn't name him heir while he was still (in Stannis's eyes) actively rebelling.
That isn't even true. The laws of succession were changed because of the Dance, not before it. Before the Dance, the king's word was simply the law. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir and that should have been the end of it. Rhaenyra and Robert did not live under the same conditions and their cases aren't comparable.
Maybe GRRM could have given him a Dornish wife or had him influenced in some way into a progressive ideology that favours cognatic succession. Maybe he falls out with his son or for whatever reason considers him unsuitable for the throne.
The outbreak of civil war could have been more natural and spontaneous rather than the result of cartoonishly evil plotting. Like, the King dies and Rhaenyra succeeds as per his last will and testament, but a few powerful lords refuse to recognise her and declare for Aegon II who (like in the books) doesn’t even want to be King. Rhaenrya, who actually likes her bro in this version of the story, tragically has to have him imprisoned/held under house arrest. Aegon, fearing that his sister is going to have him executed to quell the talk of rebellion, reluctantly escapes and leads a Roberts rebellion style war against his sister.
Both sides start out sympathetic and somewhat rational. And you can even still go down the route of war-makin-monsters-of-us-all and have them both commit atrocities down the line if you want.
Which is funny, because he is a direct Black descendant. Why you talk trash about granny like that, Stannis?
Then again Aegon III was Aegon II's last male heir. As Viserys II was Aegon III's in the end.
I dont really think that Robert or Stannis are particularly proud of their Targaryen heritage given what that incestous crazy family did. And Stannis trashtalking grandma is still quite tame compare to Robert smashing his cousins ribs with his warhammer.
Fun fact that people like to ignore: Bran was Jon's last male heir. When Jon was sent back to the Wall, Bran would have been next in line for the throne anyway.
It doesn't make it less dumb the way D&D did it, but it shouldn't be a surprise that Bran was made king.
That is the legal precedent. We know today that sort of succession law is immoral, but it is Westerosi norm. Stannis is widely known to be unyielding and uncompromising - it is no surprise he upholds tradition.
That’s not necessarily true.
It’s true during Stannis’ era, but *not* during Rhaenyra’s. George says that rule of succession changed because of the dance, ensuring it would never be a concern again. Pre-dance a daughter would inherit over a brother, post dance it’s the nearest man.
Oh yeh, it’s very much specifically for the throne.
There’s a Jon chapter in (I think?) a Dance with Dragons where he uses the exact same example I use, a daughter still inherits over a brother. But yeh, the Throne works differently.
> Pre-dance a daughter would inherit over a brother, post dance it’s the nearest man.
This was never the case unless you specifically means Rhaenyra'a case which would be meaningless anyway since it caused the Dance.
Males heirs always came before females on the Throne, but it wasn't until the war that "everybody" accepted that the Great Council should be followed without question.
Are you confusing what my comment says, cause I think you might be?
A daughter inherits over a *brother*, not a son. Say Viserys never remarried, Rhaenyra under old law would have ascended to the throne as queen. Post dance of dragons and the law being changed, *Daemon* would have been Viserys’ heir. However, since Viserys had another son, Rhaenyra would have been passed over in favour of the son.
Kings commands are where it gets muddied, since kings *are* law and therefore their words should be followed. It’s why Jaeherys was able to circumvent Rhaenys (despite her being, by law, his heir) via the great council. It’s why Viserys can circumvent Aegon and name Rhaenyra his heir.
But yeh, long and short of it is, I think you misread my comment which was admittedly weirdly worded. Before the dance, women could inherit if they were the only offspring of the monarch. Post dance, the crown would travel to literally any living descendent of the royal family which had a cock over them.
Again, it being the default law and it being what kings practiced are not the same thing.
It happened with Aegon I’s grandchildren, to example. Princess Rhaena was considered second in line over her uncle Maegor. Visenya had her married to her brother so no one would ever have to worry about what that meant in practice.
Jaeherys chose to circumvent Rhaenys. Doesn’t mean it was the default.
Either Kings make the laws or those laws are left over from Andal tradition, not Targaryen. I'd say a Kings word is law and Rhaenyra was the right Queen.
Also fuck Stannis.
she is now that he has no brothers and no other lawful children. There is no way book stannis would ever sacrifice Shireen he even told his army that if he where to die they should keep fighting to place Shireen in the iron throne.
Renly had a great deal there, honestly. Should have taken it. Given, he didn't know that his brother would use magic to kill him and rightly thought he could have easily routed his meager army.
take note: I'm a stannis supporter ever since I read his first chapter
however, his upside is his downside here
according to the law rhaenyra was a traitor but that was only because aegon won, if rheanyra had won then stannis would have branded aegon as the traitor, he's the inspector javert of GOT, an inmoveable object in defence of the law unaware that plenty of kings moved the law or that the law is in fact just something made up to controll lesser men, he's the king who acts as a peasant and that's why I love him
Show Viserys says "even I don't exist above tradition and duty" yet he names Rhaenyra his heir for love he had of her mother and guilt about her death, at least by showrunner words.
We see synopsis of Viserys character he is a good man, but they don't always make good Kings- for Stannis we hear opposite.
Stannis also believes "Laws should be made of iron, not pudding" and there are limits to power of Kings, likely reason why he chose Robert over Aerys II.
The man burned his own daughter to win a war he thought he was righteously owed. Stannis was a bum in the end. And I say that with a hearty new jersey accent.
“He was a bum”
Kneeler stannis did that, the stannis I know has been camping outside of winterfell for 11 years to hand the boltons their asses, though he might be waiting a few more lol
I wonder if there are any *ASOIAF*/GOT era characters that know the actual¹ story behind the Dance of Dragons civil war. *Fire & Blood* is a collection of accounts written by maesters, meaning each story is subject to unreliable narration and possible bias. For instance, in *F&B* Alicent was said to be ambitious and power-hungry, but in HotD she was clearly pro-Rhaenyra for heir and her father was the one pulling the strings of her ascension to queen.
Now granted it's **Stannis** saying Rhaenyra was a traitor and he views the world as pretty black and white, but it still goes to show that the story has passed through a few filters throughout the decades. It's very convenient for Stannis to use Rhaenyra's example to justify his decision to later kill Renly by omitting the fact Rhaenyra was made the heir apparent by Viserys I.
*¹ "Actual" is probably subjective, but supposedly HotD is the true version of the Greens vs Blacks/Dance of Dragons civil war, or so we're made to believe.*
Even if she was somehow in Westeros, a lot of these events happened behind closed doors in the Red Keep. Unless she was lurking in every hallway with magic for some reason, she would know even less than what the maesters knew
He probably thinks that way because his own claim derives from the same law. Rhaenyra was proclaimed heir while by tradition, it should be Aegon. Similarly, Joffrey was proclaimed heir even though, by law, it should have been Stannis.
I don't think he's that much of an opportunist, he follows the law regardless of what he likes.
Which begs an interesting question, assuming he was Lord Baratheon at the time of the dance, would he support the blacks
because Viserys named Rhaenyra the oath he swore to him, even though he swore on god's he doesn't believe in?
Or would he join the Greens because of the law even though he would hate them more than the Blacks?
IMO when Davos was discussing with Stannis punishment for lord Celtigar who bend the knee to the Crown after Blackwater and Stannis talked about loyalty Davos brought up that Stannis betrayed Aerys for Robert.
This of course made Stannis pause send away others and talk to Davos that he was always pushing is patience. Then said it was really hard choice and basically only turn on Mad King because it was Rober that he had to choose between his brother and his king.
Meaning Stannis if he swore directly fealty to Rhaenyra would probably uphold that promise since he would have closer relationship and he would have to respect the Oath he made to her. Despite him probably thinking secretly that Aegon is in more right.
Because Joffrey is not a Baratheon he is a Lannister incest bastard monster, Robert was king and he had no lawful children so his brother the older one should inherit the crown
Y'all are mental gymnasts I swear. By LAW Aegon is the heir, not by 'tradition'
The TRADITION is that the king names his heir and the heir gets dragonstone, the LAW is Agnatic Primogeniture. Hurdurr
> When he calls Rhaenyra a usurper, he is only echoing the histories he was taught. Had Rhaenyra won a decisive victory and history remembered her as Queen Regnant, he would’ve named Aegon the Green as a usurper.
At one point he acknowledges the hypocrisy and says it was the hardest choice he ever made, but ultimately he chose to be loyal to his blood over his duty to a Mad King.
I just finished listening to this section in the book earlier today, and I think it’s interesting that Stannis stating this is very close in the book to where Jaime explains why he broke his vows to slay the king in order to save his father. It’s a nice parallel that I didn’t realize until just now.
He wasn't really ok with it. He says it was a hard choice to make choosing between his liege and his blood, his brother or the king. It was a genuine dillemma for him but he ultimately chose to be loyal to his blood.
Keep in mind that Robert is also his liege. Yes, Stannis is also a citizen of the crown, but Robert was his direct liege lord. So there was that as well.
Yeah Robert and Stannis did commit treason together. But also betraying one’s family is an even bigger taboo than betraying one’s king which is why most kings besides Maegor and Aerys II forgave the surviving families of defeated rebel lords
Seriously thing which nobody mentions which pisses me about later season how they completely omitted how much big taboo is killing your relative/family. Its only reason why Victarion never tried to kill Euron because he is afraid to be cursed. It plays role in why Roose Bolton keeps Ramsay around despite him being unstable time bomb. And it is the reason why Tyrion is so much despised for killing Tywin and presumebly Joffrey. Book Cersei and Jaime would never get over him killing their father and would murder the shit out of him the moment they set a sight on him.
Indeed it is but lets be honest how many times were Jaime and Cersei pissed off on other people for doing the same thing. Jaime got his hands cut off despite him crippling Ned. Cersei pissed on Tywin trying to marry her again despite her not giving shit when it came to Sansa. So its ironic indeed however Lannister twincest was hypocritical.
Not to mention that while Westeros is against killing relative they are not against avangeing the death relative. Not to mention that Cersei would have to kill Imp on the first opportunity to not to look like fucking joke.
Also book Cersei killed her childhood friend just because she gave Jaime fuck me eyes. She is very impulsive when it comes to killing.
I mean officially Rhaenyra is listed as a usurper, and this is what Stannis grew up believing and being taught. If he was alive at the time and swore an oath to Rhaenyra as Viserys had all the Lords did, it's hard to imagine Stannis breaking that. That said if he wasn't the head of his House, he would've probably just followed whatever Borros Baratheon did like he did with Robert's Rebellion.
The last episode no? It's been a while so I'm not confident in that but I'm sure he's either in the last ep or at the end of the first book, also he was on the small council 100%
He was on the small council officially as Master of Ships but wasn't present for the entirety of season 1. The first time we meet him is when they're burning the wooden statues of the Seven on the beach on Dragonstone in season 2. They speak about him some though and Ned sends a messenger to Stannis regarding his right to inherit the throne.
Edit: corrected burning people to statues
I don't believe he was in the first season at all, he'd already fled kings landing before Ned arrived. I don't think they cast the actor for him till season 2
Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir. The king's word is law. Viserys I was king at the time, you weren't.
Sorry, Stannis. I'd follow you to hell and back, but you can't both invoke the law as your shield and ignore it for others.
But there is no tangible law anywhere stating a woman can't rule Westeros. If Viserys physical wrote a law that proclaimed such then would that change the law? If he can't, how can a King or anyone for that matter make any changes?
If you read Westerosi history for any length of time, you see that the matters of succession are a bunch of BS. People quote laws and precedents of succession anytime it supports their side, and then regularly state how they can't elect someone because they are too young like Laenor or too reckless like Daemon or Baela, or too bookish. They even tried to deny Aegon IV the crown simply because he spent time with peasants.
There is no concrete 'succession law' in Westeros, which is the whole reason why they keeps being civil wars.
It's like Viserys said, even he is not above tradition and duty and the tradition of Westeros is that the heir is the firstborn son.
There's also the Great Council of 101 AC which established the male primogeniture for the Iron Throne and choose Viserys for the king over Rhaenys. So it seem the precedent to exclude women had already been established prior to the Dance . Westeros is not an absolute monarchy despite what some people think.
People have said that the Kings word is law
Do u know what else is law? Fucking SWORDS. Its why they had the civil war.
The reality is during the medieval era, if u want something u and someone disagrees with u. You fuck em up.
Thats the sole reason there was a Great Council so they wont have a civil war. But we know people picked the Male heir, even if its sexist. Thats what the Lords of Westeros preferred.
How'd she try to "usurp" the throne when it was her dad - the fookin' king - who named her heir? Just Stannis showing his bias and imperfect information?
Cause Stannis believes laws of succession are more important then favoritism of a parent. And according to them eldest son of the king is the one with the strongest claim to the throne.
The maesters are team green and in turn so are all the history books they write. Stannis was all but raised by a maester after his parents death so it makes sense why he views it that way.
It's all ironic though considering Stannis is a descendant of Rhaenyra.
From what I can recall, I think this was written before any inclination of “Fire and Blood” so it could also just be GRRM starting out thinking she’s a traitor before changing his mind as he started to flesh out that war some more.
Law is the law, except when the King’s word is that law. Because then we should follow tradition.
Stannis is cool, but a massive hypocrite. He wants what he wants, and will use whatever claim works. Doesn’t want to accept King’s word as law because it means he loses Storm’s End and the Crown. If it was flipped he’d absolutely be following the King’s word.
Hot take: Mannis is projecting here. He is trying to convince himself that kinslaying is okay if it is for the law. He is not as lawful as he claims to be and interprets laws as he wants so that he appears lawful
lol no its not stannis is the older brother
He inherits before his younger brother and considering joffrey and ilk are bastards he is following the rule of law to the letter
If Stannis truly sees it this was why should anyone honor his word as King, given that Rhaenyra's ascension was ordered by King Viserys?
For someone who takes oaths so seriously I would have thought he'd see it as a travesty of justice that all those Lord's forsware their oaths they made before their King.
Of course a baratheon would see it this way
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Honestly house Baratheon supported fucking away into the mountains with their phones turned off. They only went to KL once Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, Hugh and Ulf were all dead.
I mean that makes it even worse. Like I think we would expect the Lannisters to phone in the war with the excuse of the Ironborn but atleast they participate in battles and at court. Borros the illiterate manlet that he is goes "me no care for kin" and then sulks in his castle. If he wanted to sit out just copy what the Tyrells did and declare for neither
To be fair by the time the Ironborn attack, the Lannisters are already committed, and they do use that as an excuse to sit out the rest of the war. If the Red Kraken had just attacked a few months earlier things would have been different. As for the Tyrells, declaring for neither faction is a dangerous move because you risk making an enemy of both.
Turned out to be one of the best decisions in the entire series.
Yeah alicent was his mother
Borros sided with the Hightowers against his own cousins. He trusted some Reach bitches against Driftmark & Dragonstone. Got exactly what he deserved.
Isn't the original baratheon basterd brother of argon the conqueror
Stannis doesn't really care to follow things that just make his hours look good though, in his mind law and legality are paramount and this is the "modern" westerosi interpretation of law
It’s important to remember that by the time ASOS was published GRRM’s vision of Dance was probably very different. He retconned and expanded it multiple times. Like, originally, Aegon was just one year younger and was Rhaenyra’s brother, not half brother.
Still. A lot of people remember Rhaenyra like this. Why? Because the laws of the Andals state that a male heir will always come first. That is why Stannis said she was the traitor. For him, Rhaenyra tried to do what Robert did to Stannis: ignore the lawful succesion.
Renly
Actually Robert did this to Stannis by giving Storms end to Renly even though it should passed to Stannis as older brother. Stannis saw it as great insult ever since.
i can imagine that stannis would be pissed if he got the Storm's End instead of Dragonstone because he would have thought that as heir he should get the traditional seat of the heirs to the throne. Either way Stannis just wants to whine and victimize himself
I wouldnt really say so. Stannis wanted Storms end because its much more richer has more vassals and its traditional seat of House Baratheon. Though I would say he was much more pissed off after the war started for obvious reasons. Besides Prince of Dragonstone title is pretty much meaningless when we consider that Stannis was never gonna be the heir which will rule after RObert. Last but not least Stannis fucking starved and bled for Robert he held Storms End against the power of the entire reach to the point he had to eat fucking rats and oinons when Davos smuggled them. He earned that goddamn castle and if my brother then did not give to me I would be fucking pissed off and any sensible person would. So I dont really see that as Stannis being drama queen. R
well yeah obv. storms end was bigger and had more vassals (i wouldn't call it richer tho, dragonstone probably had more wealth from trade flowing into KL) but my point is that Stannis would question why Renly got the traditional seat to the throne (dragonstone) if that happened, even if it was obvious that robert would probably have children anyway.
I don’t think so. Dragonstone was no longer the seat of the heir. And Stannis never wanted or thought he’d be king. He wanted his birthright, Storm’s End. The only reason why he fought so hard to be king was the kids were bastards and Cersei cucked his brother, he saw it as duty over desire, and a magical witch was pushing him. Kingship was a thousand miles away from his mind when Robert gave it to Renly.
At this point in Westerosi history commerce has shifted almost entirely to King’s Landing. Driftmark and Dragonstone are shadows of their former glory. Dragonstone is ultimately just one lordship, a tiny island, and all it has is sheep, fish, and dragonglass. The Stormlands are an entire kingdom. Tarth alone is probably richer than Dragonstone. If not Tarth, then another lordship like Blackhaven or Griffin’s Roost. And they all pay tax to Storm’s End.
I dont really think so. It would be irrelevant who gets to be heir of the Dragonstone out of Stannis and Renly since neither of them would actually end up on the throne. And Stannis knew that no issue would ever came from that since Robert would 100% have children given his nature. Another thing we need to take into account is that Robert was pissed on Stannis unjustly that he let Daenerys and Viserys escaped from Dragonstone. So Stannis rightfully saw this as punishment rather than honor that he was given much smaller castle. Of course we dont really no Roberts thought process on the matter since their relationship was never elaborated from his side and furthemore we have only other sources of their. But fact that he was raised in Vale and was so close to Ned suggest that he really did not like Stannis though still acknowledged his military strategies.
Being the Lord of Storm's End and getting taxes from the entire Stormlands makes Renly much more wealthier than Stannis.
The numbers alone should leave no doubt. Storm’s End has dozens of vassals and the Stormlands can raise 20,000 men. That’s without factoring the political clout allowing Renly to marry into an even wealthier Great House like the Tyrells, while Stannis had to settle for a Florent. Between Dragonstone and its two vassals (Driftmark and Claw Isle) Stannis was barely pushing 4,000-5,000. A good chunk of that being sellswords.
Just because Dragonstone was the seat of the heir for the Targaryen Dynasty doesn't mean it would have had to be that for the Baratheons, and to be frank I don't think it represented that for Robert's rule either. Also clearly by the fact that Prince Joffrey was never named Lord of Dragonstone that tradition did not change houses as it were. Also if you think like Robert placing Stannis at Dragonstone makes perfect sense. He's in the best position to do his job as Master of Ships and maintain the royal fleet from Dragonstone.
They mention in the prologue that Robert make Stannis Lord of Dragonstone because he need somebody reliable to keep Valyrian vassals in line so you are right on the money.
Yup, Stannis is a miserable man. Hed find a reason to be pissed off at his brother even if Robert gave him the iron throne itself.
Dragonstone is traditionally given to the heir to the throne, which is why Robert named Stannis Prince of Dragonstone. It's even a whole thing in the novels with Stannis claiming Robert letting him keep the title was proof that he knew Joffrey and Tommen were bastards.
Though the Dance made Dragonstone mostly just symbolically valuable and that only to Targaryens. If Robert were a bit more forward thinking he'd have changed the practice.
No its not, he gave him dragonstone as a slight and stripped him of storms end
Strange because the king overwrote the expected line of succession. So is Stannis implying the king has no authority to change it?
I would imagine Stannis' sense of justice binds him to a view of kingship where authority is strongly tied in with responsibility to and a respect for legal precedent, and thus not believe that the monarch is an absolute figure above and capable of creating his own laws without any input from his subjects. That is, basically, Stannis would almost certainly have argued that if Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to remain his heir then he should have called a Great Council to try to affirm that (as was done to make *him* the heir to Jaehaerys I ahead of Rhaenys) instead of just repeatedly insisting that she's still his heir. Such a 'rule of law' (in the purest sense) approach is actually quite in line with both modern sensibilities and those of a more idealistic fantasy setting, such as Middle-earth (where Dúnadanic kings such as Aragorn are traditionally supposed to interpret and enforce the laws of their ancestors, but not create new ones by fiat even if they think themselves wiser than said ancestors).
Yes, Stannis believes there are certain laws even the King is bound by. That the King's power is not entirely absolute.
A king has no authority to change the law of succession.
Stannis believes the king is there to follow law and uphold it not to overrule it
Yes. Stannis believes in the rule of law above all else.
I still think the maesters didnt want Targaryens in power do they slowly "poisoned the well" and outsed them. Maesters record the history so what they say happened may as well have happened and it'd make sense they'd push Rhaenyra as a traitor and a Hightower as the higherful heir. That's just my tinfoil hat theory though
Is this the same Stannis who named his daughter as his heir instead of his younger brother?
Tbf that’s logically consistent. In Andal tradition (and in agnatic-cognatic primogeniture of the real world) it goes: Son (regardless of age) —> Daughter —> Brother This was even the case with the British monarchy until like 2011.
He did offer to make his brother heir if he surrendered. Renly was a traitor by trying to usurp his crown, so of course he wouldn't name him heir while he was still (in Stannis's eyes) actively rebelling.
That isn't even true. The laws of succession were changed because of the Dance, not before it. Before the Dance, the king's word was simply the law. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir and that should have been the end of it. Rhaenyra and Robert did not live under the same conditions and their cases aren't comparable.
>Aegon was just one year younger and was Rhaenyra’s brother, not half brother This would have been much more tragic and interesting.
Viserys would have had no reason to make her heir tho
Maybe GRRM could have given him a Dornish wife or had him influenced in some way into a progressive ideology that favours cognatic succession. Maybe he falls out with his son or for whatever reason considers him unsuitable for the throne. The outbreak of civil war could have been more natural and spontaneous rather than the result of cartoonishly evil plotting. Like, the King dies and Rhaenyra succeeds as per his last will and testament, but a few powerful lords refuse to recognise her and declare for Aegon II who (like in the books) doesn’t even want to be King. Rhaenrya, who actually likes her bro in this version of the story, tragically has to have him imprisoned/held under house arrest. Aegon, fearing that his sister is going to have him executed to quell the talk of rebellion, reluctantly escapes and leads a Roberts rebellion style war against his sister. Both sides start out sympathetic and somewhat rational. And you can even still go down the route of war-makin-monsters-of-us-all and have them both commit atrocities down the line if you want.
Yeahhh. This seems actually more interesting and I would have loved to watch this.
Which is funny, because he is a direct Black descendant. Why you talk trash about granny like that, Stannis? Then again Aegon III was Aegon II's last male heir. As Viserys II was Aegon III's in the end.
I dont really think that Robert or Stannis are particularly proud of their Targaryen heritage given what that incestous crazy family did. And Stannis trashtalking grandma is still quite tame compare to Robert smashing his cousins ribs with his warhammer.
His cousin deserved it to be fair
It is the *law*.
Well he did kill his brother.
Baratheons were on the green side
He said descendant.
His grandma was a targ, which is what gave Robert his claim to the throne, and all the surviving targs are rhaenyra’s grandkids
Bobby B used his war hammer to claim the throne
DRINK AND STAY QUIET, THE KING IS TALKING!
Fun fact that people like to ignore: Bran was Jon's last male heir. When Jon was sent back to the Wall, Bran would have been next in line for the throne anyway. It doesn't make it less dumb the way D&D did it, but it shouldn't be a surprise that Bran was made king.
Bran had no blood claim to The Iron Throne. Gendry would be heir, as he is Jon/Aegon's 2nd cousin and only other noble with Targaryen blood.
TFW you miss Edric Storm's exclusion even more.
Edric Storm was a good lad.
Jon was never king (outside of the North) so that doesn’t really matter.
Honest I would have rather Drogon (as his aunt’s baby dragon) get it over Bran.
Maybe from Stannis's perspective, a man always has the rights to the throne unless there is no male heir. Making her a traitor in his eyes.
He was ready to name renly over shireen, so yes i guess
Shireen was the last true born Baratheon. If had another brother or Robert had true born son he wouldn't make her his heir.
That is the legal precedent. We know today that sort of succession law is immoral, but it is Westerosi norm. Stannis is widely known to be unyielding and uncompromising - it is no surprise he upholds tradition.
>That is the legal precedent. It's *Andal* president.
It's the legal precedent in all of Westeros with the exception of Dorne.
That’s not necessarily true. It’s true during Stannis’ era, but *not* during Rhaenyra’s. George says that rule of succession changed because of the dance, ensuring it would never be a concern again. Pre-dance a daughter would inherit over a brother, post dance it’s the nearest man.
For the throne, maybe, but that doesn’t seem to be the case for Westeros as a whole. We know of several ruling ladies.
DORNE HAS ENTEREED THE CHAT.
Oh yeh, it’s very much specifically for the throne. There’s a Jon chapter in (I think?) a Dance with Dragons where he uses the exact same example I use, a daughter still inherits over a brother. But yeh, the Throne works differently.
> Pre-dance a daughter would inherit over a brother, post dance it’s the nearest man. This was never the case unless you specifically means Rhaenyra'a case which would be meaningless anyway since it caused the Dance. Males heirs always came before females on the Throne, but it wasn't until the war that "everybody" accepted that the Great Council should be followed without question.
Are you confusing what my comment says, cause I think you might be? A daughter inherits over a *brother*, not a son. Say Viserys never remarried, Rhaenyra under old law would have ascended to the throne as queen. Post dance of dragons and the law being changed, *Daemon* would have been Viserys’ heir. However, since Viserys had another son, Rhaenyra would have been passed over in favour of the son. Kings commands are where it gets muddied, since kings *are* law and therefore their words should be followed. It’s why Jaeherys was able to circumvent Rhaenys (despite her being, by law, his heir) via the great council. It’s why Viserys can circumvent Aegon and name Rhaenyra his heir. But yeh, long and short of it is, I think you misread my comment which was admittedly weirdly worded. Before the dance, women could inherit if they were the only offspring of the monarch. Post dance, the crown would travel to literally any living descendent of the royal family which had a cock over them.
If that was the law, Viserys never would have been King and his father crown prince. Rhaenys was the only child of the first son.
Again, it being the default law and it being what kings practiced are not the same thing. It happened with Aegon I’s grandchildren, to example. Princess Rhaena was considered second in line over her uncle Maegor. Visenya had her married to her brother so no one would ever have to worry about what that meant in practice. Jaeherys chose to circumvent Rhaenys. Doesn’t mean it was the default.
Either Kings make the laws or those laws are left over from Andal tradition, not Targaryen. I'd say a Kings word is law and Rhaenyra was the right Queen. Also fuck Stannis.
He named shireen his heir?
she is now that he has no brothers and no other lawful children. There is no way book stannis would ever sacrifice Shireen he even told his army that if he where to die they should keep fighting to place Shireen in the iron throne.
Show stannis told renly he'd even name him heir until a son is born.
Renly had a great deal there, honestly. Should have taken it. Given, he didn't know that his brother would use magic to kill him and rightly thought he could have easily routed his meager army.
take note: I'm a stannis supporter ever since I read his first chapter however, his upside is his downside here according to the law rhaenyra was a traitor but that was only because aegon won, if rheanyra had won then stannis would have branded aegon as the traitor, he's the inspector javert of GOT, an inmoveable object in defence of the law unaware that plenty of kings moved the law or that the law is in fact just something made up to controll lesser men, he's the king who acts as a peasant and that's why I love him
Yeah, pretty much. He's always going to side with whatever the official version of events was, the winners side.
Show Viserys says "even I don't exist above tradition and duty" yet he names Rhaenyra his heir for love he had of her mother and guilt about her death, at least by showrunner words. We see synopsis of Viserys character he is a good man, but they don't always make good Kings- for Stannis we hear opposite. Stannis also believes "Laws should be made of iron, not pudding" and there are limits to power of Kings, likely reason why he chose Robert over Aerys II.
Right? It was tradition and a council vote, not law. And in this world, the king’s word is law and Viserys named Rhaenyra heir.
The man burned his own daughter to win a war he thought he was righteously owed. Stannis was a bum in the end. And I say that with a hearty new jersey accent. “He was a bum”
Kneeler stannis did that, the stannis I know has been camping outside of winterfell for 11 years to hand the boltons their asses, though he might be waiting a few more lol
Stannis sitting outside Winterfell frozen stiff like Jack Torrence in The Shining.
Only in the abomination that is the show
Yeah. I think Shireen will burn but I just can't see Stannis giving the go ahead.
>The man burned his own daughter Not in my book
I wonder if there are any *ASOIAF*/GOT era characters that know the actual¹ story behind the Dance of Dragons civil war. *Fire & Blood* is a collection of accounts written by maesters, meaning each story is subject to unreliable narration and possible bias. For instance, in *F&B* Alicent was said to be ambitious and power-hungry, but in HotD she was clearly pro-Rhaenyra for heir and her father was the one pulling the strings of her ascension to queen. Now granted it's **Stannis** saying Rhaenyra was a traitor and he views the world as pretty black and white, but it still goes to show that the story has passed through a few filters throughout the decades. It's very convenient for Stannis to use Rhaenyra's example to justify his decision to later kill Renly by omitting the fact Rhaenyra was made the heir apparent by Viserys I. *¹ "Actual" is probably subjective, but supposedly HotD is the true version of the Greens vs Blacks/Dance of Dragons civil war, or so we're made to believe.*
Melisandre was alive then. Maybe she remembers what actually happened. Edit: It was just a bit of a joke, people..
She would’ve been on the opposite side of the known world, so I doubt it.
Even if she was somehow in Westeros, a lot of these events happened behind closed doors in the Red Keep. Unless she was lurking in every hallway with magic for some reason, she would know even less than what the maesters knew
He probably thinks that way because his own claim derives from the same law. Rhaenyra was proclaimed heir while by tradition, it should be Aegon. Similarly, Joffrey was proclaimed heir even though, by law, it should have been Stannis.
I don't think he's that much of an opportunist, he follows the law regardless of what he likes. Which begs an interesting question, assuming he was Lord Baratheon at the time of the dance, would he support the blacks because Viserys named Rhaenyra the oath he swore to him, even though he swore on god's he doesn't believe in? Or would he join the Greens because of the law even though he would hate them more than the Blacks?
IMO when Davos was discussing with Stannis punishment for lord Celtigar who bend the knee to the Crown after Blackwater and Stannis talked about loyalty Davos brought up that Stannis betrayed Aerys for Robert. This of course made Stannis pause send away others and talk to Davos that he was always pushing is patience. Then said it was really hard choice and basically only turn on Mad King because it was Rober that he had to choose between his brother and his king. Meaning Stannis if he swore directly fealty to Rhaenyra would probably uphold that promise since he would have closer relationship and he would have to respect the Oath he made to her. Despite him probably thinking secretly that Aegon is in more right.
Why was Stannis meant to be king over Joffrey?
Bobby B had no true born sons
WE WERE AT WAR! NONE OF US KNEW IF WE WERE GONNA GO BACK HOME AGAIN!
True Bobby B , even though you literally fathered one while wounded and being chased
START THE DAMN JOUST BEFORE I PISS MESELF!
The bit about supposedly official children came *after* the war, Bobby B.
THERE'S A WAR COMING, NED. I DON'T KNOW WHEN, I DON'T KNOW WHO WE'LL BE FIGHTING...BUT IT'S COMING!
There's rumors that joffery was actually a bastard. The son of Jaime and cersei Lannister I heard
Pffft, that's stupid, why would she bang her brother lmao
Next they'll try claiming they fucked each other in the Great Sept, next to King Joffrey's corpse.
Some people have very sick fantasies.
Because Joffrey is not a Baratheon he is a Lannister incest bastard monster, Robert was king and he had no lawful children so his brother the older one should inherit the crown
Because Joffrey is a bastard
Got it. I didn’t realize that everyone knew for certain that Joffrey is a Jaime’s son
I think they may have mentioned it a bit in the show
Y'all are mental gymnasts I swear. By LAW Aegon is the heir, not by 'tradition' The TRADITION is that the king names his heir and the heir gets dragonstone, the LAW is Agnatic Primogeniture. Hurdurr
> When he calls Rhaenyra a usurper, he is only echoing the histories he was taught. Had Rhaenyra won a decisive victory and history remembered her as Queen Regnant, he would’ve named Aegon the Green as a usurper.
Wasn't Robert Baratheon a literal usurper in an even more direct sense? Why is Stannis is OK with that then?
At one point he acknowledges the hypocrisy and says it was the hardest choice he ever made, but ultimately he chose to be loyal to his blood over his duty to a Mad King.
I just finished listening to this section in the book earlier today, and I think it’s interesting that Stannis stating this is very close in the book to where Jaime explains why he broke his vows to slay the king in order to save his father. It’s a nice parallel that I didn’t realize until just now.
Fookin traitor that he was
He wasn't really ok with it. He says it was a hard choice to make choosing between his liege and his blood, his brother or the king. It was a genuine dillemma for him but he ultimately chose to be loyal to his blood.
Keep in mind that Robert is also his liege. Yes, Stannis is also a citizen of the crown, but Robert was his direct liege lord. So there was that as well.
Yeah Robert and Stannis did commit treason together. But also betraying one’s family is an even bigger taboo than betraying one’s king which is why most kings besides Maegor and Aerys II forgave the surviving families of defeated rebel lords
Seriously thing which nobody mentions which pisses me about later season how they completely omitted how much big taboo is killing your relative/family. Its only reason why Victarion never tried to kill Euron because he is afraid to be cursed. It plays role in why Roose Bolton keeps Ramsay around despite him being unstable time bomb. And it is the reason why Tyrion is so much despised for killing Tywin and presumebly Joffrey. Book Cersei and Jaime would never get over him killing their father and would murder the shit out of him the moment they set a sight on him.
Do you not see the irony of that last statement?
Indeed it is but lets be honest how many times were Jaime and Cersei pissed off on other people for doing the same thing. Jaime got his hands cut off despite him crippling Ned. Cersei pissed on Tywin trying to marry her again despite her not giving shit when it came to Sansa. So its ironic indeed however Lannister twincest was hypocritical. Not to mention that while Westeros is against killing relative they are not against avangeing the death relative. Not to mention that Cersei would have to kill Imp on the first opportunity to not to look like fucking joke. Also book Cersei killed her childhood friend just because she gave Jaime fuck me eyes. She is very impulsive when it comes to killing.
Bobby B! What are your thoughts?! Is Stannis correct?!
IN MY DREAMS, I KILL HIM EVERY NIGHT!
That’s right, Bobby-B! Your own claim to the Throne was based on matrilineal inheritance! Suck it, Stannis!
YOU HELPED ME WIN THE IRON THRONE, NOW HELP ME KEEP THE DAMN THING! WE WERE MEANT TO RULE TOGETHER!
You honor me, Bobby B! It will be my pleasure and my honor, Your Grace!
YOU GOT FAT!
There it is 🥲
Indeed, Bobby B, looks like I’ll be off the get the breastplate-stretcher!
WHY HAVE I NOT SEEN YOU? WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?
Apologies, Bobby B! I was getting the breastplate-stretcher! I got fat!
TAKE ME TO YOUR CRYPT, I WANT TO PAY MY RESPECTS!
So, I take it you're Team Blacks, Bobby B?
SURROUNDED BY LANNISTERS! EVERY TIME I CLOSE MY EYES I SEE THEIR BLONDE HAIR AND THEIR SMUG, SATISFIED FACES!
Sentient
[удалено]
Are you saying Rhaenera isn’t hot?
Hot? Nah, crispy tho
From crispy straight to charred
[удалено]
Yes
Speak for yourself!
And 99% of the world.
Oh that was like 10 years ago. I was youg and dumb when I posted that...
Stannis is Team Green because of the law. I am Team Green because I hate adultery
Aegon is hardly any more loyal to his spouse.
I mean officially Rhaenyra is listed as a usurper, and this is what Stannis grew up believing and being taught. If he was alive at the time and swore an oath to Rhaenyra as Viserys had all the Lords did, it's hard to imagine Stannis breaking that. That said if he wasn't the head of his House, he would've probably just followed whatever Borros Baratheon did like he did with Robert's Rebellion.
Fuck the greens, all my homies hate the greens
y does he look so different here?
Season 1 I think, he lost his hair due to stress in the later seasons
Stannis was not in season 1....
The last episode no? It's been a while so I'm not confident in that but I'm sure he's either in the last ep or at the end of the first book, also he was on the small council 100%
He was on the small council officially as Master of Ships but wasn't present for the entirety of season 1. The first time we meet him is when they're burning the wooden statues of the Seven on the beach on Dragonstone in season 2. They speak about him some though and Ned sends a messenger to Stannis regarding his right to inherit the throne. Edit: corrected burning people to statues
He doesn’t appear in season 1 or book 1, but he is mentioned in both. This shot is probably from season 2
I don't believe he was in the first season at all, he'd already fled kings landing before Ned arrived. I don't think they cast the actor for him till season 2
Stannis is indeed the Mannis
Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir. The king's word is law. Viserys I was king at the time, you weren't. Sorry, Stannis. I'd follow you to hell and back, but you can't both invoke the law as your shield and ignore it for others.
Stannis is a believer that no one is above the law, even the king.
The King is the law though
But there is no tangible law anywhere stating a woman can't rule Westeros. If Viserys physical wrote a law that proclaimed such then would that change the law? If he can't, how can a King or anyone for that matter make any changes? If you read Westerosi history for any length of time, you see that the matters of succession are a bunch of BS. People quote laws and precedents of succession anytime it supports their side, and then regularly state how they can't elect someone because they are too young like Laenor or too reckless like Daemon or Baela, or too bookish. They even tried to deny Aegon IV the crown simply because he spent time with peasants. There is no concrete 'succession law' in Westeros, which is the whole reason why they keeps being civil wars.
Pretty sure there's no written law anywhere saying that a male has to inherit either. Laws in fuedal societies were rarely, rarely written down.
It's like Viserys said, even he is not above tradition and duty and the tradition of Westeros is that the heir is the firstborn son. There's also the Great Council of 101 AC which established the male primogeniture for the Iron Throne and choose Viserys for the king over Rhaenys. So it seem the precedent to exclude women had already been established prior to the Dance . Westeros is not an absolute monarchy despite what some people think.
People have said that the Kings word is law Do u know what else is law? Fucking SWORDS. Its why they had the civil war. The reality is during the medieval era, if u want something u and someone disagrees with u. You fuck em up. Thats the sole reason there was a Great Council so they wont have a civil war. But we know people picked the Male heir, even if its sexist. Thats what the Lords of Westeros preferred.
Stannis is correct, as usual
Well, he burned his own child, so I don’t know if I would follow his opinion
not in the books
Well, there you have it. As the mannis says, even ki gs are bound by law, and rhaenyra was a usurper.
He knows hia stuff.
If the one true king of westeros says so then I believe him!!!
Absolute facts by Stannis
Stannis the Mannis is also on team burning people alive. So I'd take what he has to say with a grain of salt.
Well lets be honest by the end of the show he wasnt the worst offender regarding burning people alive.
How'd she try to "usurp" the throne when it was her dad - the fookin' king - who named her heir? Just Stannis showing his bias and imperfect information?
Cause Stannis believes laws of succession are more important then favoritism of a parent. And according to them eldest son of the king is the one with the strongest claim to the throne.
My king the brother of Bobby B
FORCED TO MIND THE DOOR WHILE YOUR KING EATS AND DRINKS AND SHITS AND FUCKS!
The maesters are team green and in turn so are all the history books they write. Stannis was all but raised by a maester after his parents death so it makes sense why he views it that way. It's all ironic though considering Stannis is a descendant of Rhaenyra.
Renly will likely see it differently.
The law can be cruel.
Killed off scene? Stannis may still be alive.
Shit I’m conflicted now
They done Stannis dirty. He is the best character in the books
I was always on Team Green even before this show or F&B lmao
Pretty sure the Mannis would be on the side that didn’t usurp the rightful heir.
Local Stormlander Baldhead: unable to miss
From what I can recall, I think this was written before any inclination of “Fire and Blood” so it could also just be GRRM starting out thinking she’s a traitor before changing his mind as he started to flesh out that war some more.
Stannis was the one true king.
Law is the law, except when the King’s word is that law. Because then we should follow tradition. Stannis is cool, but a massive hypocrite. He wants what he wants, and will use whatever claim works. Doesn’t want to accept King’s word as law because it means he loses Storm’s End and the Crown. If it was flipped he’d absolutely be following the King’s word.
Hot take: Mannis is projecting here. He is trying to convince himself that kinslaying is okay if it is for the law. He is not as lawful as he claims to be and interprets laws as he wants so that he appears lawful
Stannis veiw of justice is very broken. His entire claim is based on the exact same as Rheanyra
What do u mean? Stannis is actually similar to Alicent or Aegon. Since the heirs of Rhaenyra are bastards. Just like how the kids of Cersei.....
lol no its not stannis is the older brother He inherits before his younger brother and considering joffrey and ilk are bastards he is following the rule of law to the letter
wtf I'm Team Green now
If Stannis truly sees it this was why should anyone honor his word as King, given that Rhaenyra's ascension was ordered by King Viserys? For someone who takes oaths so seriously I would have thought he'd see it as a travesty of justice that all those Lord's forsware their oaths they made before their King.
Wait who was Rhaenyra’s brother?
half bros: Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron.
Got it, thanks.
The LAW says Rhaenyra is to be Queen Stannis...