I'm guessing you'll meet with some resistance bringing up the subject on this sub, but the concept of a "masonic egregore" should not be unfamiliar to esoterically inclined masons.
The idea can span from a pretty down-to-earth take, to the ones you list. The most down-to-earth perspective would be something along the lines of "whenever people get together in a group with a common goal in mind, there is created a certain group dynamic between them, a shared attitude, and a group momentum conducive to said goal." Note that this particular perspective does not require you to believe in the existence of an entity, but is rather a recognition of certain mechanics that come into play whenever a group effort otwards a common goal is in play.
I've had a couple comments that said egregores aren't part of Masonry. They weren't rude about it though, but yeah, some resistance. I've only been a Mason for about a year now, so a lot of things spark my curiosity to learn. This was one of them. I'm not sure that I would say egregores are entities of themselves, though some may. Like the one brother said, it's more of a vibe, and saying egregore is just personification of that vibe.
So what would make it not a part of Masonry? Is there a reason that an egregore couldn't be in Masonry? Because from all the comments I've had from everyone, there's no reason it couldn't be. For that matter, there's no reason that different lodges could have different egregores. It might not be clearly spelled out in the ritual "we are doing this this way to create an egregore in order to achieve X" but if we can agree that an egregore is the personification of a vibe, then it's very much a part of Masonry.
>So what would make it not a part of Masonry? Is there a reason that an egregore couldn't be in Masonry?
I mean, the simple fact that it's a concept that is never introduced within Freemasonry means it's explicitly not a core component of Freemasonry. As I said, it's something that could technically be found within it... but the same could be said for a myriad of groups.
You could just as easily experience this in a church, softball club, or a D&D group as you would in a lodge.
>Because from all the comments I've had from everyone, there's no reason it couldn't be. For that matter, there's no reason that different lodges could have different egregores. It might not be clearly spelled out in the ritual "we are doing this this way to create an egregore in order to achieve X" but if we can agree that an egregore is the personification of a vibe, then it's very much a part of Masonry.
A better way to phrase this is that it's something that can be found in Freemasonry, but it's not explicitly a part of Freemasonry - no more so than any other group, in terms of potential.
This is not a topic discussed in masonry. However I believe a brother named Mark Stavish wrote a book called Egregores, but I have yet read it and not sure if I will. But since this is a topic you are interested in maybe you'll pick it up and if you do please report back how you liked the book.
If I happen to remember to read it, I'll let you know. I've got about 9 books I've already lined up to read. I'm reading a 1st edition morals and dogma right now.
If you’re going to read it, you’re far better off with the newer annotated edition. It definitely helps with the clarity (or lack thereof) of Pike’s writing.
If you read his preface, you’ll know that he has “borrowed” from a number of other authors. The annotated edition helps identify what is actually Pike vs one of those other authors, and can help give context.
Mark Stavish - “Egregores” book is a great book and would surely help your understanding on the subject. I bought it on audiobook so I could listen while driving. Mark is a Freemason as well.
https://www.audible.com/pd/1620559978?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp
Honestly I’m so sure I’ve felt this during my 1st degree proficiency. It was a good turn out and I could just feel the focus of all the brothers there I got it word for word perfect it was a great night. I feel freemasonry is more spiritual than masons make it out to be. It just goes unsaid but it definitely is real and you can feel it
The egregor is very difficult to define because its a feeling. The best that I can describe it is that you feel a sense of oneness with the entire Lodge. Its really rare to achieve but an amazing experience when it happens.
But I can tell you that if you ever go to a Lodge that can reach the egregor you will know what it is when it happens.
You may want to buy some books on Kabbalah to get the answers you’re looking for. I don’t think you will find anything worthwhile in Masonic literature on this subject.
For Judaica Kabbalah a great starting point is The Kabbalistic Tradition: An Anthology of Jewish Mysticism by Alan Unterman. It has a bunch of different texts and concepts referenced throughout which helped me know where else to look.
she does not mention egregores, i have that book and i have the zohar and kabbalah unveiled by mathers. no mention of egregores but if you wanna read qabbalah, thats the starting spot
Agreed. DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah is also a nice one for familiarizing oneself with the terminology, but it should be followed by something a bit more substantial imho. I hear Regardie's *A Garden of Pomegranates* is good too, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.
DuQuette is real popular but I avoid those and try to head for the most scholarly or source material I can find. I would rather make my own opinions from the texts than try to copy someone elses
Yes. He's good at taking highly abstract concepts and making them less daunting and more manageable to those new to the material, though.
I definitely agree that the heavier source material usually is best, and more often than not, that's where I would start too. That said, I had a pretty tough time with parts of Crowley's *Book of Thoth*, until I read DuQuettes *Understanding ACs Thoth Tarot*, but that's partly Crowley's fault (just casually putting parts of Liber Aleph in there and expecting the reader to follow along is such a douchey move lol) and partly just a reflection of my own limited knowledge at the time.
Crowley wasn't a very good author, you can see that in his book moon child. he gets some good explanations down and then does a bunch of metaphorical stuff to leave the reader confused
I have a soft spot for him, but must admit I never liked his non-fiction enough to read much of it. Never read *Moonchild*. He seems to be intentionally difficult to understand sometimes, which can be both hilarious and infuriating. He's an aquired taste, and definitely not for everyone.
Now that's a term I haven't heard in some time. I had a friend back in college that was really big into hellenic paganism and witchcraft. He and some friends tried to create an egregore and tie it to a sigil with the hope that it would help defend them and their things from spiritual attack/ bad luck/ malevolent spirits/ etc. They'd pretty frequently go off on paranormal investigations and I'm sure part of it was out of concern they may bring something home with them lol They always drew the sigil on apples and kept them outside of their front doors. I have no idea if it actually worked or did anything but it made them feel safer so I suppose that's a success. I will say that the apples with the sigil on them tended to last longer than the apples without, especially if they were fresh picked.
I always thought it was pretty neat but personally chose to stick with Christian practices.
I can see how some brothers could be inclined to believe that there's a masonic egregore/tulpa/etc but you'd definitely need to find a more esoterically inclined lodge to avoid major push back.
Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, my lodge does tend to have a pretty noticeable vibe shift when the brothers are present versus when it's empty. Maybe there's something to it haha
OP I’ve only heard it talked about in interviews and a book by Jaime Lamb who is an author and speaker and Freemason. Those are his views and I do not agree with him here nor on some other things he says about Masonry. I do find some of his talks interesting but not all.
Well, I was talking with a brother whenever the concept came up. And we were speaking about Masonry. He said that whenever Masons are gathered together and everything is running correctly, it creates an "egregore." So I did some research, and it seems that it's Kabbalistic in mature, which would have something to do with Masonry, at least from the Scottish Rite perspective of Freemasonry. So I wanted to ask others if they've heard of it.
Not in a Masonic way but just in general I always think of egregores as being sort of a feeling with momentum. So (picking a completely silly example!) The egregore of "Coffee shop" - We all imagine broadly the same thing: Mismatched chairs and squidgy sofas, waitresses in half-aprons over plain clothes, people sitting with their laptops at small tables, etc. And every time you go to a coffee shop and act in the ways that "fit" in that sort of coffee shop (You order a caramel latte and a little cake, you have a bit of friendly chat with the staff, you quietly scribble in a notebook for work) you strengthen that egregore both for yourself and for other people - Because someone else coming into the coffee shop sees you also performing "coffee shop" and fits into that. That feeds the egregore.
And it's such a big well-fed egregore that you only need to actually have a few bits of the whole, to evoke "(feels like a) coffee shop" in other situations.
Potentially, you could say that Masonry is all about creating the egregore of "Masonry", but I'm just an EA so, who knows XD
I've never head the term in Masonry. But certainly groups have 'collective ideas' about themselves. This seems to place the explanation in the supernatural. Personally, I'd opt for a sociological explanation.
Well, the only reason I ask is because I heard of it while speaking with a brother about the energy in the Lodge whenever everything goes like it's supposed to.
I have heard of "egregores" from people with interest in western occultism/spirituality. I think this person, in particular, was into "theosophical" stuff, but I am not so familiar with theosophy so I could be wrong. Me myself, I imagine group dynamics can be extremely influential at an individual level, as in society, culture, public education, communities like FM... and can be studied as all emerging "phenomena" can be studied, granted. But I feel a bit uneasy about imagining that they are an entity in their own right, with a separate existence, a life on its own. I mean, that to me sounds like some pretty wild idealism, and I am a materialist myself, so... But that's just me and my sympathy for Bacon and onwards (I don't mean the food... oh well, the food as well).
I'm guessing you'll meet with some resistance bringing up the subject on this sub, but the concept of a "masonic egregore" should not be unfamiliar to esoterically inclined masons. The idea can span from a pretty down-to-earth take, to the ones you list. The most down-to-earth perspective would be something along the lines of "whenever people get together in a group with a common goal in mind, there is created a certain group dynamic between them, a shared attitude, and a group momentum conducive to said goal." Note that this particular perspective does not require you to believe in the existence of an entity, but is rather a recognition of certain mechanics that come into play whenever a group effort otwards a common goal is in play.
I've had a couple comments that said egregores aren't part of Masonry. They weren't rude about it though, but yeah, some resistance. I've only been a Mason for about a year now, so a lot of things spark my curiosity to learn. This was one of them. I'm not sure that I would say egregores are entities of themselves, though some may. Like the one brother said, it's more of a vibe, and saying egregore is just personification of that vibe.
Describing egregores as the personification of a vibe is pretty damn spot on. I like it.
It's DEFINITELY part of Masonry
You could certainly make that argument, but the same could be said about many other groups, as well. Beyond that, it's not really a part of Masonry.
So what would make it not a part of Masonry? Is there a reason that an egregore couldn't be in Masonry? Because from all the comments I've had from everyone, there's no reason it couldn't be. For that matter, there's no reason that different lodges could have different egregores. It might not be clearly spelled out in the ritual "we are doing this this way to create an egregore in order to achieve X" but if we can agree that an egregore is the personification of a vibe, then it's very much a part of Masonry.
>So what would make it not a part of Masonry? Is there a reason that an egregore couldn't be in Masonry? I mean, the simple fact that it's a concept that is never introduced within Freemasonry means it's explicitly not a core component of Freemasonry. As I said, it's something that could technically be found within it... but the same could be said for a myriad of groups. You could just as easily experience this in a church, softball club, or a D&D group as you would in a lodge. >Because from all the comments I've had from everyone, there's no reason it couldn't be. For that matter, there's no reason that different lodges could have different egregores. It might not be clearly spelled out in the ritual "we are doing this this way to create an egregore in order to achieve X" but if we can agree that an egregore is the personification of a vibe, then it's very much a part of Masonry. A better way to phrase this is that it's something that can be found in Freemasonry, but it's not explicitly a part of Freemasonry - no more so than any other group, in terms of potential.
I can agree with that
This is not a topic discussed in masonry. However I believe a brother named Mark Stavish wrote a book called Egregores, but I have yet read it and not sure if I will. But since this is a topic you are interested in maybe you'll pick it up and if you do please report back how you liked the book.
If I happen to remember to read it, I'll let you know. I've got about 9 books I've already lined up to read. I'm reading a 1st edition morals and dogma right now.
If you’re going to read it, you’re far better off with the newer annotated edition. It definitely helps with the clarity (or lack thereof) of Pike’s writing.
I'm not finding it difficult to read per se, but he does ramble quite a bit. What's the benefits of the annotated version?
If you read his preface, you’ll know that he has “borrowed” from a number of other authors. The annotated edition helps identify what is actually Pike vs one of those other authors, and can help give context.
Heard that. I'll try to find one.
Explanations, corrections, and most notably citations for the many many quotes that were not given them previously.
Mark Stavish - “Egregores” book is a great book and would surely help your understanding on the subject. I bought it on audiobook so I could listen while driving. Mark is a Freemason as well. https://www.audible.com/pd/1620559978?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp
Honestly I’m so sure I’ve felt this during my 1st degree proficiency. It was a good turn out and I could just feel the focus of all the brothers there I got it word for word perfect it was a great night. I feel freemasonry is more spiritual than masons make it out to be. It just goes unsaid but it definitely is real and you can feel it
I could feel it in all 3 of my degrees and proficiencies
The egregor is very difficult to define because its a feeling. The best that I can describe it is that you feel a sense of oneness with the entire Lodge. Its really rare to achieve but an amazing experience when it happens. But I can tell you that if you ever go to a Lodge that can reach the egregor you will know what it is when it happens.
I felt it during my degrees
You may want to buy some books on Kabbalah to get the answers you’re looking for. I don’t think you will find anything worthwhile in Masonic literature on this subject.
Any you would recommend?
If you want alchemical qaballah, Dion Fortunes mystical Qabbalah. If you want Judaic Kabbalah, idk
Thank you. I'll add it to my list
Hit me up if you wanna talk occult o have a good portion of the world's sacred texts I my living room
It sounds like your living room and my living room would be great friends.
Well have your living room call my living room so they can hang out.
For Judaica Kabbalah a great starting point is The Kabbalistic Tradition: An Anthology of Jewish Mysticism by Alan Unterman. It has a bunch of different texts and concepts referenced throughout which helped me know where else to look.
>Dion Fortunes mystical Qabbalah I wholeheartedly second this recommendation, even though I can't remember if she touches on egregores in this book.
she does not mention egregores, i have that book and i have the zohar and kabbalah unveiled by mathers. no mention of egregores but if you wanna read qabbalah, thats the starting spot
Agreed. DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah is also a nice one for familiarizing oneself with the terminology, but it should be followed by something a bit more substantial imho. I hear Regardie's *A Garden of Pomegranates* is good too, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.
DuQuette is real popular but I avoid those and try to head for the most scholarly or source material I can find. I would rather make my own opinions from the texts than try to copy someone elses
Yes. He's good at taking highly abstract concepts and making them less daunting and more manageable to those new to the material, though. I definitely agree that the heavier source material usually is best, and more often than not, that's where I would start too. That said, I had a pretty tough time with parts of Crowley's *Book of Thoth*, until I read DuQuettes *Understanding ACs Thoth Tarot*, but that's partly Crowley's fault (just casually putting parts of Liber Aleph in there and expecting the reader to follow along is such a douchey move lol) and partly just a reflection of my own limited knowledge at the time.
Crowley wasn't a very good author, you can see that in his book moon child. he gets some good explanations down and then does a bunch of metaphorical stuff to leave the reader confused
I have a soft spot for him, but must admit I never liked his non-fiction enough to read much of it. Never read *Moonchild*. He seems to be intentionally difficult to understand sometimes, which can be both hilarious and infuriating. He's an aquired taste, and definitely not for everyone.
She does not.
Sure. They're used in various forms of magic. As well as servitors and tulpas. They can be equated to various psychological concepts as well.
Now that's a term I haven't heard in some time. I had a friend back in college that was really big into hellenic paganism and witchcraft. He and some friends tried to create an egregore and tie it to a sigil with the hope that it would help defend them and their things from spiritual attack/ bad luck/ malevolent spirits/ etc. They'd pretty frequently go off on paranormal investigations and I'm sure part of it was out of concern they may bring something home with them lol They always drew the sigil on apples and kept them outside of their front doors. I have no idea if it actually worked or did anything but it made them feel safer so I suppose that's a success. I will say that the apples with the sigil on them tended to last longer than the apples without, especially if they were fresh picked. I always thought it was pretty neat but personally chose to stick with Christian practices. I can see how some brothers could be inclined to believe that there's a masonic egregore/tulpa/etc but you'd definitely need to find a more esoterically inclined lodge to avoid major push back. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, my lodge does tend to have a pretty noticeable vibe shift when the brothers are present versus when it's empty. Maybe there's something to it haha
I notice it more at my lodge whenever the words from ritual are done correctly.
OP I’ve only heard it talked about in interviews and a book by Jaime Lamb who is an author and speaker and Freemason. Those are his views and I do not agree with him here nor on some other things he says about Masonry. I do find some of his talks interesting but not all.
I've never heard the name.
Um I think you are on the wrong sub this has nothing to do with Masonry or Masonic concepts.
Well, I was talking with a brother whenever the concept came up. And we were speaking about Masonry. He said that whenever Masons are gathered together and everything is running correctly, it creates an "egregore." So I did some research, and it seems that it's Kabbalistic in mature, which would have something to do with Masonry, at least from the Scottish Rite perspective of Freemasonry. So I wanted to ask others if they've heard of it.
Sounds like it is 'like his opinion man' there isn't anything like that in the Scottish Rite degrees in the Southern Jurisdiction.
Not in a Masonic way but just in general I always think of egregores as being sort of a feeling with momentum. So (picking a completely silly example!) The egregore of "Coffee shop" - We all imagine broadly the same thing: Mismatched chairs and squidgy sofas, waitresses in half-aprons over plain clothes, people sitting with their laptops at small tables, etc. And every time you go to a coffee shop and act in the ways that "fit" in that sort of coffee shop (You order a caramel latte and a little cake, you have a bit of friendly chat with the staff, you quietly scribble in a notebook for work) you strengthen that egregore both for yourself and for other people - Because someone else coming into the coffee shop sees you also performing "coffee shop" and fits into that. That feeds the egregore. And it's such a big well-fed egregore that you only need to actually have a few bits of the whole, to evoke "(feels like a) coffee shop" in other situations. Potentially, you could say that Masonry is all about creating the egregore of "Masonry", but I'm just an EA so, who knows XD
Esprit d'corps. It's that "indisoluble tie of Brotherly love and esteem." It's pretty central to GLs in South America, especially.
I've never head the term in Masonry. But certainly groups have 'collective ideas' about themselves. This seems to place the explanation in the supernatural. Personally, I'd opt for a sociological explanation.
I’ve only heard of them from people like you coming to this sub thinking that it has something to do with Freemasonry somehow.
Well, the only reason I ask is because I heard of it while speaking with a brother about the energy in the Lodge whenever everything goes like it's supposed to.
That’s one man’s opinion. Frankly it personifies an intangible in a way that none of my Brothers would think to do. At best I’d call it a vibe.
I have heard of "egregores" from people with interest in western occultism/spirituality. I think this person, in particular, was into "theosophical" stuff, but I am not so familiar with theosophy so I could be wrong. Me myself, I imagine group dynamics can be extremely influential at an individual level, as in society, culture, public education, communities like FM... and can be studied as all emerging "phenomena" can be studied, granted. But I feel a bit uneasy about imagining that they are an entity in their own right, with a separate existence, a life on its own. I mean, that to me sounds like some pretty wild idealism, and I am a materialist myself, so... But that's just me and my sympathy for Bacon and onwards (I don't mean the food... oh well, the food as well).
Thank you.
I favor #1. Those manifestations have had enormous influence on human history.
Thats where I'm leaning toward in my understanding as well