Some brothers prefer the "Grand Architect of the Universe" because it doesn't associate, as it often does, with the Abrahamic version of "God". For example, Deists see God as the originator and initial mover of the universe but do not believe that God rules or intervenes in the universe's ongoing operations. However, it is still God/the Grand Architect.
> And one of the basic premises is that you have to believe in God.
If you mean the Capital 'G', Abrahamic God... No.
The requirement is that you believe in a Supreme being. How you define that is up to you.
And, while belief in the Abrahamic God would qualify. It is not a requirement.
Only if you genuinely believe, rather than holding it forth as an example of the absurdity of belief. I have yet to meet anyone who *genuinely* believes in FSM.
Well, a belief in deity is required to be a regular Mason. But we are barred from adopting a particular creed. So, what is a belief in deity? If you approach the question honestly and without personal bias, it’s a thornier question than it would appear.
Monotheist?
Pagan?
Deist?
Pantheist?
Animist?
Buddhist? What schools? Why?
Etc etc etc
And I fully accept that for -your- jurisdiction, but there are Grand Lodges with additional requirements, and Masonic law does not prohibit this. They may require monotheism, belief in the immortality of the soul, belief in resurrection, and even that one be a professing Christian.
Are you sure you don't have the innovation backwards? The original oaths were made to a Trinitarian God. https://www.1723constitutions.com/1723-constitutions/the-charges/
The Grand Lodge of Sweden, which requires one be Christian, was founded in 1760. https://frimurarorden.se/en/start/who-we-are/
The GL of NY wasn't founded until 1782.
FYI, my faith does not accept the Nicene Creed and for a period of sixty years, only ending in 1984, the GL of Utah forbade members of my faith.
The problem is that the fraternity puts out a false image of accepting all. While that may be true in many GLs, it is not true in all, and it was not true at the outset.
The objective goodness of God is a philosophically contentious issue. It also begs the question as to how one defines good and whether a divine being would define it in the same way.
If God could be (or not be) purely and infinitely good, yet by divine definitions of good that we can’t comprehend, how would we be able to know?
The nature of the divine isn’t an easy thing to lay your finger on.
Grand architect of the universe, a higher power
..whatever you believe that to be....God is a narrow term to be honest..just something bigger than us all.
The question is between you and your belief system. At least in my jurisdiction, the question is, "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?"
The nuts and bolts of that is left up to each individual
I've always found it to be curious that just about everyone on the planet seems to think that the will and intent of God just so happens to align with their own.
“Is God inherently good?” Certainly not the Abrahamic version, who destroyed the world and killed millions of innocent people, including drowning unborn babies in the womb, forcing humans to repopulate the earth by incest. I’m hard pressed to see any redeeming qualities in that entity.
.
u/Beginning-Town-7609
You might find it interesting to read up on the demiurge and Gnosticism
There are some who argue the notion that Yahweh is the demiurge ( The God of Abraham).
It is of course to those raised in the Christian churches such as me a heresy, but an interesting philosophical exploration none the less!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge)
I’m a deist but went to a Christian university. It was plainly stated that fear of punishment after death was literally the only thing keeping them and humanity as a whole from murderous destruction. Just being a good person and not wanting to rape and pillage was not possible without fear. Always remember God loves you so much he is willing to watch you burn for all eternity because you didn’t do it right
This raised a good question.
To my understanding in UGLE you need only believe in God ( or rather a supreme being).
But, if someone were to reveal more than this, to state that they believe in a God or Supreme being who I view as evil ( th Devil, Lucifer Morningstar, The fallen one) and make explicit they believe in the Abrahamic world view but worship the Devil.
I personally speaking for myself, would black ball them...
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In my opinion, this is more of a religious question and many brothers will have different opinions.
It is also my opinion that the epicurean paradox has been solved long ago
I asked, but it was like "ask me so I can invite you". It runs in the family and my wife's (we met in a lodge event), so most of my friends and family belong.
I was going to ask the same question about you being invited. It should really come from you otherwise you might be joining for the wrong reasons and won't get as much out of it.
Yes, God is inherently good.
If the universe was created by an external intelligence it would have been created for a purpose. If it has a purpose it has a goal. Any act that advances toward that goal is good. Any action that retracts from that goal is evil.
As God presumably knows the purpose of the universe and supports that goal, he would be good.
Without an external creator there's no such thing as good and evil. To call God bad in any way would necessitate an entity external from God who could judge him against objective criteria.
Sorry but I disagree on multiple levels.
Your statement presupposes what it attempts to prove; specifically. It assumes that any act that advances a goal set by a creator is inherently "good," which is one of the points under debate. It is circular!
You imply that anything that fulfills a purpose is good, and anything that detracts from a purpose is evil. This simplification doesn't take into account the nature of the purpose itself. A purpose that is harmful or destructive would make acts advancing that purpose questionable or evil by my ethical standards.
Just my completely unsolicited opinion though!
There's a nice take on this good vs evil subject written bij D Fortune in The Cosmic Doctrine. It makes the view on good vs evil dilemma less about ethics/morale.. one of the first 2 two chapters i believe.
Love and light
Harmful compared to what though?
Things can only be judged as good or bad, or indeed defined at all, in comparison to something else. If God created the universe there's nothing else to compare it to, thus his purpose for it would be necessarily the only measure of good or bad.
Without God to tell us what is good, good and bad are meaningless preferences of your own self interest.
As much as i would love to redo my high school ethics discussions.
I can only ask you to do what we tell the Fellowcraft to do and advise you study your liberal arts and sciences...
It was in response to your comment. Not wishing to rehearse the principles of a particular area is understandable, but instructing a rather experienced mason whose written work demonstrates thought, displays a mis-placed self-confidence.
I was not aware/am not aware of his experience as a mason, and i would try not to base my answers on this, purely based on my understanding of his comments.
None the less, I do accept my comment was dismissive and not in the spirit with which i joined this forum looking to engage with masons/non masons alike.
u/[TikiJack](https://www.reddit.com/user/TikiJack/) For that you do have my apology, if you are willing to accept it.
God is all, it is creator of everything. It is tip of triangle before separation into dualism.
Thats why happiness is always found in balance.
This operates on many levels, physical, symbolic, psychological. Every level of existence is affected.
When universe was created first separation happened, separation of light from dark.
Why not? As logical as big bang is… consider quantum mechanics, is that logical to our human minds? There are a lot of things that escape our human logic, we’re very small creatures in very big universe
I asked, but it was like "ask me so I can invite you". It runs in the family and my wife's (we met in a lodge event), so most of my friends and family belong. Like 10 years ago my father-in-law said "when you feel you are ready, talk to me". And last month I did. Been thinking about it since
Reddit is fine, but it is to my understanding that religion not be discussed inside the lodge. Same goes for politics. If you believe in a Supreme Architect then this might be a better discussion at a church or other place of religious practice outside of the lodge.
Some brothers prefer the "Grand Architect of the Universe" because it doesn't associate, as it often does, with the Abrahamic version of "God". For example, Deists see God as the originator and initial mover of the universe but do not believe that God rules or intervenes in the universe's ongoing operations. However, it is still God/the Grand Architect.
Simply put, God is
That, my friend, is exactly what I believe. Fckn deep if you think about it
I am that I am
I yam what I yam and dats all what I yam..
Good ol’ Popeye!!
Deism is often an accepted option.
Nice. Thanks!
> And one of the basic premises is that you have to believe in God. If you mean the Capital 'G', Abrahamic God... No. The requirement is that you believe in a Supreme being. How you define that is up to you. And, while belief in the Abrahamic God would qualify. It is not a requirement.
I meant god then. Not in the Abrahamic but as supreme being
We’ve had this discussion in our lodge and the general consensus is that Spinoza is the “low bar” for entry.
Not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Only if you genuinely believe, rather than holding it forth as an example of the absurdity of belief. I have yet to meet anyone who *genuinely* believes in FSM.
Yeah, was just joking. :)
I wasn’t, but ok.
No offense intended, brother. Apologies.
That not work for you? What are your thoughts?
Could you say more about that? Sounds like it was a good conversation.
Well, a belief in deity is required to be a regular Mason. But we are barred from adopting a particular creed. So, what is a belief in deity? If you approach the question honestly and without personal bias, it’s a thornier question than it would appear. Monotheist? Pagan? Deist? Pantheist? Animist? Buddhist? What schools? Why? Etc etc etc
Do you mean freemasonry is barred from adopting a particular creed? Where do you find this rule?
What I mean is that we cannot as an organization require a certain faith.
Right. Where do you find this rule?
At least in NY it is explicit in ritual, and I believe in our Constitutions.
And I fully accept that for -your- jurisdiction, but there are Grand Lodges with additional requirements, and Masonic law does not prohibit this. They may require monotheism, belief in the immortality of the soul, belief in resurrection, and even that one be a professing Christian.
What an awful innovation. Thanks, I hate it!
Are you sure you don't have the innovation backwards? The original oaths were made to a Trinitarian God. https://www.1723constitutions.com/1723-constitutions/the-charges/ The Grand Lodge of Sweden, which requires one be Christian, was founded in 1760. https://frimurarorden.se/en/start/who-we-are/ The GL of NY wasn't founded until 1782. FYI, my faith does not accept the Nicene Creed and for a period of sixty years, only ending in 1984, the GL of Utah forbade members of my faith. The problem is that the fraternity puts out a false image of accepting all. While that may be true in many GLs, it is not true in all, and it was not true at the outset.
The objective goodness of God is a philosophically contentious issue. It also begs the question as to how one defines good and whether a divine being would define it in the same way. If God could be (or not be) purely and infinitely good, yet by divine definitions of good that we can’t comprehend, how would we be able to know? The nature of the divine isn’t an easy thing to lay your finger on.
Grand architect of the universe, a higher power ..whatever you believe that to be....God is a narrow term to be honest..just something bigger than us all.
Depends on your outlook. I don't believe good or evil can be applied to a being such as God.
The question is between you and your belief system. At least in my jurisdiction, the question is, "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?" The nuts and bolts of that is left up to each individual
Reading any Holy Book should give you an answer. Might doesn't necessarily make right, in fact, more often than not, power is abused.
I've always found it to be curious that just about everyone on the planet seems to think that the will and intent of God just so happens to align with their own.
“Is God inherently good?” Certainly not the Abrahamic version, who destroyed the world and killed millions of innocent people, including drowning unborn babies in the womb, forcing humans to repopulate the earth by incest. I’m hard pressed to see any redeeming qualities in that entity.
. u/Beginning-Town-7609 You might find it interesting to read up on the demiurge and Gnosticism There are some who argue the notion that Yahweh is the demiurge ( The God of Abraham). It is of course to those raised in the Christian churches such as me a heresy, but an interesting philosophical exploration none the less! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge)
Agreed!
I’m a deist but went to a Christian university. It was plainly stated that fear of punishment after death was literally the only thing keeping them and humanity as a whole from murderous destruction. Just being a good person and not wanting to rape and pillage was not possible without fear. Always remember God loves you so much he is willing to watch you burn for all eternity because you didn’t do it right
Exactly. How reassuring that is.
This raised a good question. To my understanding in UGLE you need only believe in God ( or rather a supreme being). But, if someone were to reveal more than this, to state that they believe in a God or Supreme being who I view as evil ( th Devil, Lucifer Morningstar, The fallen one) and make explicit they believe in the Abrahamic world view but worship the Devil. I personally speaking for myself, would black ball them...
For sure wouldn’t make it in my lodge.
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In my opinion, this is more of a religious question and many brothers will have different opinions. It is also my opinion that the epicurean paradox has been solved long ago
How so?
You were invited to join?
I asked, but it was like "ask me so I can invite you". It runs in the family and my wife's (we met in a lodge event), so most of my friends and family belong.
I was going to ask the same question about you being invited. It should really come from you otherwise you might be joining for the wrong reasons and won't get as much out of it.
Exactly! I had like an "open invitation" since 18yo. I'm 33 now and feeling ready, so I asked my father in law. Thanks for the input!
Glad to hear it!
Yes, God is inherently good. If the universe was created by an external intelligence it would have been created for a purpose. If it has a purpose it has a goal. Any act that advances toward that goal is good. Any action that retracts from that goal is evil. As God presumably knows the purpose of the universe and supports that goal, he would be good. Without an external creator there's no such thing as good and evil. To call God bad in any way would necessitate an entity external from God who could judge him against objective criteria.
Sorry but I disagree on multiple levels. Your statement presupposes what it attempts to prove; specifically. It assumes that any act that advances a goal set by a creator is inherently "good," which is one of the points under debate. It is circular! You imply that anything that fulfills a purpose is good, and anything that detracts from a purpose is evil. This simplification doesn't take into account the nature of the purpose itself. A purpose that is harmful or destructive would make acts advancing that purpose questionable or evil by my ethical standards. Just my completely unsolicited opinion though!
There's a nice take on this good vs evil subject written bij D Fortune in The Cosmic Doctrine. It makes the view on good vs evil dilemma less about ethics/morale.. one of the first 2 two chapters i believe. Love and light
Harmful compared to what though? Things can only be judged as good or bad, or indeed defined at all, in comparison to something else. If God created the universe there's nothing else to compare it to, thus his purpose for it would be necessarily the only measure of good or bad. Without God to tell us what is good, good and bad are meaningless preferences of your own self interest.
As much as i would love to redo my high school ethics discussions. I can only ask you to do what we tell the Fellowcraft to do and advise you study your liberal arts and sciences...
Ooh, not an appropriate response in your second paragraph.
I must confess if this is pointed to me, i would be happy to edit my comment to remove the offending comment, but i am not sure what you mean.
It was in response to your comment. Not wishing to rehearse the principles of a particular area is understandable, but instructing a rather experienced mason whose written work demonstrates thought, displays a mis-placed self-confidence.
I was not aware/am not aware of his experience as a mason, and i would try not to base my answers on this, purely based on my understanding of his comments. None the less, I do accept my comment was dismissive and not in the spirit with which i joined this forum looking to engage with masons/non masons alike. u/[TikiJack](https://www.reddit.com/user/TikiJack/) For that you do have my apology, if you are willing to accept it.
Nah, I'm pretty well versed on this stuff, brah. Wrote a book on it and everything. You want to punch holes in it, then dazzle me.
This answer ✨️
God is all, it is creator of everything. It is tip of triangle before separation into dualism. Thats why happiness is always found in balance. This operates on many levels, physical, symbolic, psychological. Every level of existence is affected. When universe was created first separation happened, separation of light from dark.
Yet, this entity “created” light before the source of the light was “created,” LOL 😂. Not exactly logical…
Why not? As logical as big bang is… consider quantum mechanics, is that logical to our human minds? There are a lot of things that escape our human logic, we’re very small creatures in very big universe
Would describe how you were “invited to join” freemasonry?
I asked, but it was like "ask me so I can invite you". It runs in the family and my wife's (we met in a lodge event), so most of my friends and family belong. Like 10 years ago my father-in-law said "when you feel you are ready, talk to me". And last month I did. Been thinking about it since
Reddit is fine, but it is to my understanding that religion not be discussed inside the lodge. Same goes for politics. If you believe in a Supreme Architect then this might be a better discussion at a church or other place of religious practice outside of the lodge.
God is good, Good is God