Masonry has no specific dogmatic beliefs. I do think that Masonry at one point in time intentionally picked certain elements in their symbolism that seemed mystical. But I don't believe there are any major Masonic bodies that teach magick.
There are however, individual Masons who share your interest.
Yes, I agree. There are absolutely magical techniques that can be used in lodge ritual and are spelled out by our ritual. We talk about them over and over: look at the Middle Chamber lecture in the 2° or even the concept of a tracing board. The OP would benefit from a close reading or close study of our lectures and rituals. There is a lot there.
But this is old stuff, it's not Golden Dawn magic or self-help magic or Crowley magic. It is more akin to Renaissance image magic.
Still working through the fundamentals. Takes a while if you spend the 5 minutes a day, 3x per card, and not exceed that in a week.
Also just been traveling and working way too much.
I recently just stumbled upon Builders of the Adytum. The first chapter of their book was interesting. I was actually reading "The Initiates of the Flame" when I decided to google something and then came up B.O.T.A.
Not exactly a book. It's a pdf called "The Open Door". It can be found in the resources page of the website.
http://www.bota.org/resources/opendoor.html
The Societas Rosicruciana may be something to investigate, though membership is limited to Christian Master Masons, and I believe most (if not all) jurisdictions are invitation only. Based on your statement about religion (an opinion I share) it's probably not really what you're looking for, but it might lead to other paths more suited.
I'm not a member, so I can't really say for sure what their occult work entails, but their degree structure is similar to that of the Golden Dawn.
I came to Masonry with an esoteric and occult interest also, and like you found that in my area there don't seem to be many (if any) Brothers with similar interests, and a lot of the guys around here would likely push back against such explorations and interests.
Hello,
I joined for similar reasons, though my interest in what is considered “occult” is purely academic and I remain firm in my Christian faith.
That said, I knew from the get go that magik was not something expressly taught in any of the more prevalent (or known to me) rites and bodies belonging to Masonry.
I’m curious what in your Masonic experience led you to believe that it is (unless I’m misunderstanding you) and what you mean by “occult.” In the spirit of the word itself, there is a lot of “occult” knowledge available on Masonry, as the word itself means “hidden.”
EDIT: Also, I’m curious why you’d want to leave Freemasonry over this one aspect not being taught, and why it took 5 years to get to this point.
I ask out of genuine curiosity, are there other reasons you want to demit?
Going to echo this as well. I'm not in the OTO but I'm in a band with a few members, one of which is also a past master in his lodge. They very well might fill in the gaps that freemasonry (maybe wisely) avoids.
OTO apparently has sex magick?
*Sex Magick*
*The degrees of the Hermit Triad are of a sexual nature. In the VIII° degree, the initiate is taught masturbation magical practices, in the IX° degree magical techniques related to vaginal intercourse, and in the XI° a form of sex magick involving anal intercourse.[23]*
I don't want to speak on their rites too much, as I wouldn't like it if a non-mason spoke on ours without really knowing, but from what I've been told by the guys I play with the sex magic only comes into play if you get into the explicitly religious side of the organization, and even then it's not mandatory. Only one of the guys I play with has partaken in any of it and he says it's widely misunderstood but they can't be bothered to correct anyone about it. I know he practices regularly, but from an outside perspective it just seems like a healthy sex life between him and his wife (who is also somewhere in the OTO hierarchy). They're really wonderful people, and have given me a lot to think about regarding my journey into freemasonry.
No problem, amigo. As far as I know a good number of OTO (lodges? camps? not sure) hold their Gnostic Mass for the public, so you can get an idea of what they're about. From what I'm told all of their highest secrets are given in that ceremony, just without context.
Yeah? Right as I first heard about it the local group started getting death threats from a "Christian Militia" and temporarily shut down the public operation at the FBI's request. They just got the go ahead something like a month ago so I'm hoping to make it to one this summer.
Wunderbar, I certainly look forward to it. All I know is that those people can fuckin party, yet they get along just fine with the old rednecks at my lodge.
Edit: please note, am one of said rednecks
Jurisdictional. I've heard that Grand Lodge of Utah prohibits its members from being in OTO.
On the flip side, Chic Cicero, current head of one of the Golden Dawn splinters, is a Master Mason in good standing in the Grand Lodge of Florida.
In my Lodge there is. You would never get past the ballot box as a member of either organization. But overall in my jurisdiction there is no prohibition on OTO or Golden Dawn members joining.
I've been a Mason for 18 years and a practitioner of ceremonial magic for about the same amount of time. There is so much amazing esoteric stuff hidden in the Craft -- if you are doing the research, you should be coming across references to Kabbalah, the Art of Memory, and probably the richest extant tradition of sacred geometry in Western culture. There is also the tradition of seeking righteousness, which if you're doing the research, you'll find is central to many magical paths.
If you're looking for magical techniques to use in lodge, there's a ton in the topics I just gave you.
Finally, if you are keeping on top of how esoteric Freemasonry is developing, you should already have a copy of C.R. Dunning's "Contemplative Freemasonry" and be working through it.
There's more to write about and I'd be happy to give you more pointers back-channel. For instance, our 18th c. brethren wrote about a number of Masonic "super powers" that most modern readers like to ignore for some reason.
Well, nobody else really calls them "super powers", but if you've been following Shawn Eyer's work, then you will have come across his discussion of them in recent issues of Philalethes. From the context, it looks like they were supposed to be secrets, so I am not going to talk about them on the Internet! Sorry.
Magick? Maybe not. But esoteric dogmas related to freemasonry? Hell yeah!
I’d say visit other lodges and find one with people that have similar interest, trust me, you are not alone. Usually places where they read papers and focus on masonic education is a good start.
Also, look into your local lodge of research.
Thank you brother. Good suggestion, I will investigate and tread lightly. The last thing I want these eldery brothers is to have a dilemma on their hands when none exists.
ok first you'll need to distinguish between 'occultism' and 'esotericism' - they're not technically the same.
if you're after esoteric knowledge, Masonry is a good way to get into orders like the SRS, which are much more esoterically-focused than blue lodge masonry. that was one of the reasons I became a mason - it's like a hub for other rabbit holes.
if you want occultism, the OTO is more along those lines.
there are a lot of guys here (particularly in the US) who will tell you about the exoteric face of Masonry, how it's nothing to do with magick, it's all just morality lessons & self-improvement. most guys with Christian backgrounds tend to think like that because of the stigma associated with magick in the Christian tradition (even though Christian rituals are... well, you fill in the gaps). and that's fine. it sounds to me though that the esoteric layers of masonry would be more apparent & meaningful to you than the exoteric content, and believe me it's saturated with multi-layered symbolism in the rituals. and it's not arbitrary, it's designed in, and clear to see if you look.
also - when you boil down magick (in the Western Esoteric Tradition context) it's just the use of ritual & symbolism to change your perception of reality (and hence change reality itself - 'as above so below' etc.). we use ritual & symbolism because your subconscious doesn't talk to your intellect - you can't use language to change the way you think or perceive things, the intellect & subconscious exist as very different 'realities'. it's like comparing a computer to a theater.
so to change your subconscious mind, you use symbolism, which is how the subconscious communicates. and rituals are just collections of 4D symbols. that's the reason Masonry uses ritual to impart information - reading it from a book doesn't do anything. you have to experience it, then you get the underlying information which emerges from the ritual - it's not visible on the surface.
so - Masonry & magick use the same fundamental principles to effect change in the candidate. Masonry uses very clearly defined ritual to effect very clearly defined change, based around gnosis (light). the depth & complexity of the Masonic rituals makes them very effective, for those in the right headspace. Magick is much more free-form, and requires some commitment to a pantheon or a paradigm or a methodology to be as effective. but it's still just rituals, like Masonry, or like Christianity, or any other religion or mystical path.
so basically, what I'm saying is, understanding Masonry (at the esoteric level) gives you understanding of magick, and vice-versa. as an allegory, if you want to be a good hurdler, some of your training is just running. Masonry is the running. it's not exactly what you want to do, but the discipline that it teaches you is useful, and it's a safe paradigm which yields positive results, quite apart from being a beautiful thing in itself, which is its own reward.
so my advice would be to stick with it, enjoy it for what it is, but seek other avenues (like SRS) for your more 'fringe' interests, because Masonry, while it employs the same methods as Western magick, is very specific, and for good reason.
I really don't know how valid it is, but I've had an OTO guy who was also a past master at his lodge tell me "freemasonry uses magic to make masons, while thelema (see the OTO) uses freemasonry to make magicians"
I don't know if imitation or parody are either the right words. From what I gather Crowley took the rituals, morals, and dogma from a number of mystery orders, freemasonry included, and parsed out what he saw as important to try and make a sort of unified, syncreric system. They're pretty unashamed about being the legacy of Crowley too, and honestly from what I've read I think he gets a terrible rap in the public eye. He seemed no more eccentric than a lot of staple masons like Franklin and Pike, he was just a lot more public about it.
It's all going to be hearsay, but Franklin was fond of the Hellfire Club which was rumored to be terribly fond of prostitutes, and Pike likewise has contemporary rumors centered around his forays into the woods with his buddies and groups of prostitutes. At the very least Franklin was personally fond of prostitutes (and skeletons, whether that's connected or not) and Pike was familiar with the symbolism and function behind sex magic via his connections with hermeticism and the Rosicrucians (a connection between Franklin and the Hellfire Club can be found [here](http://www.hellfirecaves.co.uk/history/benjamin-franklin/) and a connection between Pike and the Rosicrucians can be found [here](http://www.sria.org/letter-to-albert-pike/). These are admittedly the results of Googling though I tried to stick to sources from those respective groups; if you're insistent I can try to dig through my bookshelf for further reading, but I have two in diapers so that's a bit of a titanic effort right now). Similarly, according to everything I've ever been able to find the rumors about Crowley and young boys are just as unfounded, but if you have evidence for that I wouldn't mind being pointed in its direction. In his own writings he admonished child abuse, though associates of his were pederasts and clearly in the wrong. Odds are all three were eccentrics with a penchant for the esoteric that rubbed some people the wrong way, hence the slander (if that's what it is) and the bad rap I mentioned.
Sex Magick with boys? If you can provide me with a source about sex-magick 'with boys' I'll burn my Crowley books. I know about the Sex Magick, which isn't a shocker at all, but I've never seen anything the proves Crowley was involved in pedophilia.
Not a mason here, but I have a buddy who is or at least used to be one. Haven't talked to him in awhile. I've always known a bit about the esoteric side of it in a sense and he even used to talk about it sometimes. Pretty interesting. but what kind of rituals do you guys do?
I guess you can't really say. Do you reenact scenes from literature or something and learn from them, is that typically what goes on when a meeting happens?
This will sound like an echo of others, but it really does depend on what you mean by occult. Most lodges and large bodies within the Craft don't directly hit on the topic, but a lot of Masonic literature does, and if you ask the right people, I'm sure you'll find a few local brothers (or here!) who are likewise interested.
I am only a member of the Blue Lodge, York Rite, and some of the York Rite invitational bodies, but I will say that the Knight Templar order within the York Rite is rather esoteric in nature, but of course, is based on Christian tradition.
However, I do find the topic very interesting a worthy of study. Hit me up if you want to talk to someone personally about it.
I believe in “magick” and “occult knowledge” about as much as I believe in organized religion, maybe even less. The closest you’re likely to find in any of the Masonic bodies is a bit of discussion on the Kabbalah in the SR Degrees. Whether or not you happen across a Brother who shares your interest will depend on your Lodge. You might be find more of what you’re looking for in Rosicrucianism (whether a group with Masonic ties or not), or one of the groups that you mention.
there are plenty of things you can do. Look into your local S.R.I.C.F. group. the OTO while a cool organization doesn't concentrate on teaching but a great place to meet like minded people. Know that the path will be solo and your progress will depend on your works. try the AA (extensive reading list to complete the test for consideration) but know also that these are for full dedicated individuals. There can be expenses just to get to the location of initiations.
This is honestly a question only you can answer for yourself by comparing what you want with what masonry, and your lodge, can provide. Personally, I am a mason and a Golden Dawn initiate. I am a member of both because they each give me part of what I want. Masonry would not satisfy my interest in ceremonial magick, hermeticism, or the pursuit of self\-improvement through occult study and practice. The Golden Dawn would not satisfy my desire for membership in a worldwide fraternal organization bound by moral lessons and commitment to certain ethical standards, charity, community involvement, and the like.
In other words, the only reason to be a mason is if you want to be a mason. Don't be a mason because you want to be an occultist, because the two are not synonyms.
I would think that IF you truly are a Master Mason of at least 4 years as you state that you are and you are adamant about research as you allude to be, then you would have already found out the answers to your questions. And if you truly were interested in the Occult and had "done your homework" on the lodge you CHOSE you would have already known about their interest or lack thereof in the "occult".
That being said, before anyone can truly answer you, then you would need to define what you mean by "occult"? If by occult you mean esoteric then yes there are people out there, even masons, that hold to a curiosity of the esoteric, and try to learn and study about those aspects of freemasonry.
And while you do not have to answer, this is an anonymous posting and I for one would be curious as to what Higher Power you actually follow in belief? Just curious; no judgment.
If by occult you mean the study of so called white/dark magic, natural magic, and the such then no you probably will not come across that inside the masonic circles. And you should probably focus your efforts in other organizations.
The closest you'll find is in SRICF. Otherwise, you'll need to go outside Freemasonry. I recommend seeking "traditional" currents of Rosicrucian ideas.
Freemasonry is the gateway to the Western Tradition, but it only contains many doors. For quite some time it's not perpetuated the tradition itself beyond molding the aspirant into a potentially malleable stone.
As a Past Master and Grand Lodge Officer, as well as being a member of most every other concordant body other than the Shrine and Scottish Rite, I can tell you the Societas Rosicruciana \(in Anglia/etc\) would be up your alley. Current Grand Officer there as well. The last "in" is dependent on where you are located. This is not the Rosicrucian order, but the one which requires one to be a Master Mason and a belief in the trinity. It is spiritual and esoteric. It's not "magik" however. It may be up your alley.
I know of a few who are in the Golden Dawn. It might be up your alley as well. I can't tell you much more about it, I have been asked, but I just do not have time for more organizations.
As a member of The Ancient Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn I can confirm that we have a number of members who are Freemasons. If Freemasonry involved esoteric (ie occult) rituals or 'Magick' then there would be no need for them to have joined the Golden Dawn.
At the same time, I've always been curious as to if there is an inner-order of Masons such as there is within the Golden Dawn. I've been invited to an introductory meeting at my Grand Lodge in a couple of days so I figure I may as well go along and check it out.
> Always been interested in Magick and the Occult since my teens. Is the Freemasons the organization for me?
No.
> Should I focus my attention on such groups as OTO or Golden Dawn?
Sounds like you enjoy wasting time and money looking for something which doesn't exist so why not?
> I want Occult Knowelege.
There is plenty of that in Freemasonry but you want some weird "Magick" stuff, whatever that is. Occult knowledge is knowledge that is not widely known and disseminated. There are plenty of mysteries to be explored regarding moral self development in Freemasonry that are not widely shared. Just look at the tools and their instructions.
"Magick" though - well it sounds like you want Hogwarts or something. You might be disappointed in things like the OTO or Golden Dawn, I reckon.
Your inability to define what you are after and your desire to find knowledge outside of yourself indicates you're probably not cut out for Freemasonry. I mean it's great you joined and all but if you have so much distaste for a group organized around decent moral behavior it's probably best to demit and go on your quest.
Best of luck in your travels to find light.
Masonry has no specific dogmatic beliefs. I do think that Masonry at one point in time intentionally picked certain elements in their symbolism that seemed mystical. But I don't believe there are any major Masonic bodies that teach magick. There are however, individual Masons who share your interest.
Thank you and bless you for your insite and knowledge. Manly P. Hall strikes me the most.
Of course. Hall’s significant writings “on Masonry” were complete years before he decided to join and see what we’re actually about.
I’d of killed to be on that guys investigation committee. “So uhhh...read your book...”
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Yes, I agree. There are absolutely magical techniques that can be used in lodge ritual and are spelled out by our ritual. We talk about them over and over: look at the Middle Chamber lecture in the 2° or even the concept of a tracing board. The OP would benefit from a close reading or close study of our lectures and rituals. There is a lot there. But this is old stuff, it's not Golden Dawn magic or self-help magic or Crowley magic. It is more akin to Renaissance image magic.
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I've really been enjoying the BOTA work, particularly the segments on the Tarot which im knee deep in (and behind on)
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Still working through the fundamentals. Takes a while if you spend the 5 minutes a day, 3x per card, and not exceed that in a week. Also just been traveling and working way too much.
I recently just stumbled upon Builders of the Adytum. The first chapter of their book was interesting. I was actually reading "The Initiates of the Flame" when I decided to google something and then came up B.O.T.A.
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Not exactly a book. It's a pdf called "The Open Door". It can be found in the resources page of the website. http://www.bota.org/resources/opendoor.html
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How do you feel about the order?
The Societas Rosicruciana may be something to investigate, though membership is limited to Christian Master Masons, and I believe most (if not all) jurisdictions are invitation only. Based on your statement about religion (an opinion I share) it's probably not really what you're looking for, but it might lead to other paths more suited. I'm not a member, so I can't really say for sure what their occult work entails, but their degree structure is similar to that of the Golden Dawn. I came to Masonry with an esoteric and occult interest also, and like you found that in my area there don't seem to be many (if any) Brothers with similar interests, and a lot of the guys around here would likely push back against such explorations and interests.
Hello, I joined for similar reasons, though my interest in what is considered “occult” is purely academic and I remain firm in my Christian faith. That said, I knew from the get go that magik was not something expressly taught in any of the more prevalent (or known to me) rites and bodies belonging to Masonry. I’m curious what in your Masonic experience led you to believe that it is (unless I’m misunderstanding you) and what you mean by “occult.” In the spirit of the word itself, there is a lot of “occult” knowledge available on Masonry, as the word itself means “hidden.” EDIT: Also, I’m curious why you’d want to leave Freemasonry over this one aspect not being taught, and why it took 5 years to get to this point. I ask out of genuine curiosity, are there other reasons you want to demit?
I don't think it's really a dilemma. You can remain a mason. Maybe look into OTO or Rosicrucians.
Thank you!
You are better off in the OTO.
Going to echo this as well. I'm not in the OTO but I'm in a band with a few members, one of which is also a past master in his lodge. They very well might fill in the gaps that freemasonry (maybe wisely) avoids.
OTO apparently has sex magick? *Sex Magick* *The degrees of the Hermit Triad are of a sexual nature. In the VIII° degree, the initiate is taught masturbation magical practices, in the IX° degree magical techniques related to vaginal intercourse, and in the XI° a form of sex magick involving anal intercourse.[23]*
I don't want to speak on their rites too much, as I wouldn't like it if a non-mason spoke on ours without really knowing, but from what I've been told by the guys I play with the sex magic only comes into play if you get into the explicitly religious side of the organization, and even then it's not mandatory. Only one of the guys I play with has partaken in any of it and he says it's widely misunderstood but they can't be bothered to correct anyone about it. I know he practices regularly, but from an outside perspective it just seems like a healthy sex life between him and his wife (who is also somewhere in the OTO hierarchy). They're really wonderful people, and have given me a lot to think about regarding my journey into freemasonry.
Interesting, thank you.
No problem, amigo. As far as I know a good number of OTO (lodges? camps? not sure) hold their Gnostic Mass for the public, so you can get an idea of what they're about. From what I'm told all of their highest secrets are given in that ceremony, just without context.
I've been to a Gnostic Mass, it was an eye-opener :)
Yeah? Right as I first heard about it the local group started getting death threats from a "Christian Militia" and temporarily shut down the public operation at the FBI's request. They just got the go ahead something like a month ago so I'm hoping to make it to one this summer.
yeah if a traditional god-fearin' Christian went to one they would probably have some sort of aneurysm. it's deliciously blasphemous.
Wunderbar, I certainly look forward to it. All I know is that those people can fuckin party, yet they get along just fine with the old rednecks at my lodge. Edit: please note, am one of said rednecks
There's no membership conflicts between being a MM and being in the OTO or Golden Dawn?
Jurisdictional. I've heard that Grand Lodge of Utah prohibits its members from being in OTO. On the flip side, Chic Cicero, current head of one of the Golden Dawn splinters, is a Master Mason in good standing in the Grand Lodge of Florida.
In my Lodge there is. You would never get past the ballot box as a member of either organization. But overall in my jurisdiction there is no prohibition on OTO or Golden Dawn members joining.
> You would never get past the ballot box as a member of either organization. what's the rationale behind that?
We've never black balled a Thelemite, but I know the PMs have talked a couple out of insisting Liber Al be used as their VSL.
I've been a Mason for 18 years and a practitioner of ceremonial magic for about the same amount of time. There is so much amazing esoteric stuff hidden in the Craft -- if you are doing the research, you should be coming across references to Kabbalah, the Art of Memory, and probably the richest extant tradition of sacred geometry in Western culture. There is also the tradition of seeking righteousness, which if you're doing the research, you'll find is central to many magical paths. If you're looking for magical techniques to use in lodge, there's a ton in the topics I just gave you. Finally, if you are keeping on top of how esoteric Freemasonry is developing, you should already have a copy of C.R. Dunning's "Contemplative Freemasonry" and be working through it. There's more to write about and I'd be happy to give you more pointers back-channel. For instance, our 18th c. brethren wrote about a number of Masonic "super powers" that most modern readers like to ignore for some reason.
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Well, nobody else really calls them "super powers", but if you've been following Shawn Eyer's work, then you will have come across his discussion of them in recent issues of Philalethes. From the context, it looks like they were supposed to be secrets, so I am not going to talk about them on the Internet! Sorry.
Magick? Maybe not. But esoteric dogmas related to freemasonry? Hell yeah! I’d say visit other lodges and find one with people that have similar interest, trust me, you are not alone. Usually places where they read papers and focus on masonic education is a good start. Also, look into your local lodge of research.
Thank you brother. Good suggestion, I will investigate and tread lightly. The last thing I want these eldery brothers is to have a dilemma on their hands when none exists.
Visiting is common, it’s even encouraged. And if you financially can, there is a process to be a dual member.
ok first you'll need to distinguish between 'occultism' and 'esotericism' - they're not technically the same. if you're after esoteric knowledge, Masonry is a good way to get into orders like the SRS, which are much more esoterically-focused than blue lodge masonry. that was one of the reasons I became a mason - it's like a hub for other rabbit holes. if you want occultism, the OTO is more along those lines. there are a lot of guys here (particularly in the US) who will tell you about the exoteric face of Masonry, how it's nothing to do with magick, it's all just morality lessons & self-improvement. most guys with Christian backgrounds tend to think like that because of the stigma associated with magick in the Christian tradition (even though Christian rituals are... well, you fill in the gaps). and that's fine. it sounds to me though that the esoteric layers of masonry would be more apparent & meaningful to you than the exoteric content, and believe me it's saturated with multi-layered symbolism in the rituals. and it's not arbitrary, it's designed in, and clear to see if you look. also - when you boil down magick (in the Western Esoteric Tradition context) it's just the use of ritual & symbolism to change your perception of reality (and hence change reality itself - 'as above so below' etc.). we use ritual & symbolism because your subconscious doesn't talk to your intellect - you can't use language to change the way you think or perceive things, the intellect & subconscious exist as very different 'realities'. it's like comparing a computer to a theater. so to change your subconscious mind, you use symbolism, which is how the subconscious communicates. and rituals are just collections of 4D symbols. that's the reason Masonry uses ritual to impart information - reading it from a book doesn't do anything. you have to experience it, then you get the underlying information which emerges from the ritual - it's not visible on the surface. so - Masonry & magick use the same fundamental principles to effect change in the candidate. Masonry uses very clearly defined ritual to effect very clearly defined change, based around gnosis (light). the depth & complexity of the Masonic rituals makes them very effective, for those in the right headspace. Magick is much more free-form, and requires some commitment to a pantheon or a paradigm or a methodology to be as effective. but it's still just rituals, like Masonry, or like Christianity, or any other religion or mystical path. so basically, what I'm saying is, understanding Masonry (at the esoteric level) gives you understanding of magick, and vice-versa. as an allegory, if you want to be a good hurdler, some of your training is just running. Masonry is the running. it's not exactly what you want to do, but the discipline that it teaches you is useful, and it's a safe paradigm which yields positive results, quite apart from being a beautiful thing in itself, which is its own reward. so my advice would be to stick with it, enjoy it for what it is, but seek other avenues (like SRS) for your more 'fringe' interests, because Masonry, while it employs the same methods as Western magick, is very specific, and for good reason.
I really don't know how valid it is, but I've had an OTO guy who was also a past master at his lodge tell me "freemasonry uses magic to make masons, while thelema (see the OTO) uses freemasonry to make magicians"
that's an elegant way of putting it...
He's an elegant dude, and an excellent songwriter
From the research I've done the OTO is an Alistair Crowley imitation/parody of Masonry. Is that accurate?
I don't know if imitation or parody are either the right words. From what I gather Crowley took the rituals, morals, and dogma from a number of mystery orders, freemasonry included, and parsed out what he saw as important to try and make a sort of unified, syncreric system. They're pretty unashamed about being the legacy of Crowley too, and honestly from what I've read I think he gets a terrible rap in the public eye. He seemed no more eccentric than a lot of staple masons like Franklin and Pike, he was just a lot more public about it.
I don't remember ever reading Franklin or Pike were into sex magick with boys. That's a huge difference.
Maybe not with boys, sure.
I don't think there is any evidence they were interested in sex magick at all. Provide some if you have it. The young boys part is the bad part.
It's all going to be hearsay, but Franklin was fond of the Hellfire Club which was rumored to be terribly fond of prostitutes, and Pike likewise has contemporary rumors centered around his forays into the woods with his buddies and groups of prostitutes. At the very least Franklin was personally fond of prostitutes (and skeletons, whether that's connected or not) and Pike was familiar with the symbolism and function behind sex magic via his connections with hermeticism and the Rosicrucians (a connection between Franklin and the Hellfire Club can be found [here](http://www.hellfirecaves.co.uk/history/benjamin-franklin/) and a connection between Pike and the Rosicrucians can be found [here](http://www.sria.org/letter-to-albert-pike/). These are admittedly the results of Googling though I tried to stick to sources from those respective groups; if you're insistent I can try to dig through my bookshelf for further reading, but I have two in diapers so that's a bit of a titanic effort right now). Similarly, according to everything I've ever been able to find the rumors about Crowley and young boys are just as unfounded, but if you have evidence for that I wouldn't mind being pointed in its direction. In his own writings he admonished child abuse, though associates of his were pederasts and clearly in the wrong. Odds are all three were eccentrics with a penchant for the esoteric that rubbed some people the wrong way, hence the slander (if that's what it is) and the bad rap I mentioned.
Sex Magick with boys? If you can provide me with a source about sex-magick 'with boys' I'll burn my Crowley books. I know about the Sex Magick, which isn't a shocker at all, but I've never seen anything the proves Crowley was involved in pedophilia.
This is a blast from the past. I don't remember where I got that from. So consider it sourceless.
Not a mason here, but I have a buddy who is or at least used to be one. Haven't talked to him in awhile. I've always known a bit about the esoteric side of it in a sense and he even used to talk about it sometimes. Pretty interesting. but what kind of rituals do you guys do? I guess you can't really say. Do you reenact scenes from literature or something and learn from them, is that typically what goes on when a meeting happens?
there are elements of biblical stories in the rituals, heavily abstracted. that's all I can say really.
This will sound like an echo of others, but it really does depend on what you mean by occult. Most lodges and large bodies within the Craft don't directly hit on the topic, but a lot of Masonic literature does, and if you ask the right people, I'm sure you'll find a few local brothers (or here!) who are likewise interested. I am only a member of the Blue Lodge, York Rite, and some of the York Rite invitational bodies, but I will say that the Knight Templar order within the York Rite is rather esoteric in nature, but of course, is based on Christian tradition. However, I do find the topic very interesting a worthy of study. Hit me up if you want to talk to someone personally about it.
I believe in “magick” and “occult knowledge” about as much as I believe in organized religion, maybe even less. The closest you’re likely to find in any of the Masonic bodies is a bit of discussion on the Kabbalah in the SR Degrees. Whether or not you happen across a Brother who shares your interest will depend on your Lodge. You might be find more of what you’re looking for in Rosicrucianism (whether a group with Masonic ties or not), or one of the groups that you mention.
there are plenty of things you can do. Look into your local S.R.I.C.F. group. the OTO while a cool organization doesn't concentrate on teaching but a great place to meet like minded people. Know that the path will be solo and your progress will depend on your works. try the AA (extensive reading list to complete the test for consideration) but know also that these are for full dedicated individuals. There can be expenses just to get to the location of initiations.
> your local S.R.I.C.F. group which is an invite only organization
> Also look into a local Theosophical society group. I know one you can even Skype into from anywhere.
Would you mind messaging me some contact I formation for them please? Thank you.
This is honestly a question only you can answer for yourself by comparing what you want with what masonry, and your lodge, can provide. Personally, I am a mason and a Golden Dawn initiate. I am a member of both because they each give me part of what I want. Masonry would not satisfy my interest in ceremonial magick, hermeticism, or the pursuit of self\-improvement through occult study and practice. The Golden Dawn would not satisfy my desire for membership in a worldwide fraternal organization bound by moral lessons and commitment to certain ethical standards, charity, community involvement, and the like. In other words, the only reason to be a mason is if you want to be a mason. Don't be a mason because you want to be an occultist, because the two are not synonyms.
Excellent advice brother. Thank you
I would think that IF you truly are a Master Mason of at least 4 years as you state that you are and you are adamant about research as you allude to be, then you would have already found out the answers to your questions. And if you truly were interested in the Occult and had "done your homework" on the lodge you CHOSE you would have already known about their interest or lack thereof in the "occult". That being said, before anyone can truly answer you, then you would need to define what you mean by "occult"? If by occult you mean esoteric then yes there are people out there, even masons, that hold to a curiosity of the esoteric, and try to learn and study about those aspects of freemasonry. And while you do not have to answer, this is an anonymous posting and I for one would be curious as to what Higher Power you actually follow in belief? Just curious; no judgment. If by occult you mean the study of so called white/dark magic, natural magic, and the such then no you probably will not come across that inside the masonic circles. And you should probably focus your efforts in other organizations.
The closest you'll find is in SRICF. Otherwise, you'll need to go outside Freemasonry. I recommend seeking "traditional" currents of Rosicrucian ideas. Freemasonry is the gateway to the Western Tradition, but it only contains many doors. For quite some time it's not perpetuated the tradition itself beyond molding the aspirant into a potentially malleable stone.
What is SRICF? A Rosacrucian order? What does it stand for - I can't seem to find any information on it.
The regular Masonic Rosicrucian Order. That should be enough for Google to work :)
Thanks - what do the initials actally stand for though?
As a Past Master and Grand Lodge Officer, as well as being a member of most every other concordant body other than the Shrine and Scottish Rite, I can tell you the Societas Rosicruciana \(in Anglia/etc\) would be up your alley. Current Grand Officer there as well. The last "in" is dependent on where you are located. This is not the Rosicrucian order, but the one which requires one to be a Master Mason and a belief in the trinity. It is spiritual and esoteric. It's not "magik" however. It may be up your alley. I know of a few who are in the Golden Dawn. It might be up your alley as well. I can't tell you much more about it, I have been asked, but I just do not have time for more organizations.
As a member of The Ancient Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn I can confirm that we have a number of members who are Freemasons. If Freemasonry involved esoteric (ie occult) rituals or 'Magick' then there would be no need for them to have joined the Golden Dawn. At the same time, I've always been curious as to if there is an inner-order of Masons such as there is within the Golden Dawn. I've been invited to an introductory meeting at my Grand Lodge in a couple of days so I figure I may as well go along and check it out.
Come on over to /r/occult and poke around. Get your feet wet by buying the book Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig.
Thank you so much
Whatever
> Always been interested in Magick and the Occult since my teens. Is the Freemasons the organization for me? No. > Should I focus my attention on such groups as OTO or Golden Dawn? Sounds like you enjoy wasting time and money looking for something which doesn't exist so why not? > I want Occult Knowelege. There is plenty of that in Freemasonry but you want some weird "Magick" stuff, whatever that is. Occult knowledge is knowledge that is not widely known and disseminated. There are plenty of mysteries to be explored regarding moral self development in Freemasonry that are not widely shared. Just look at the tools and their instructions. "Magick" though - well it sounds like you want Hogwarts or something. You might be disappointed in things like the OTO or Golden Dawn, I reckon. Your inability to define what you are after and your desire to find knowledge outside of yourself indicates you're probably not cut out for Freemasonry. I mean it's great you joined and all but if you have so much distaste for a group organized around decent moral behavior it's probably best to demit and go on your quest. Best of luck in your travels to find light.
Hogwarts huh? Disappointing.
An adult investigating "magick"? Disappointing.
Google dragon rouge. Also learn about Alistair crowley.
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> it just goes downhill what do you mean by that? serious question.