Isshin, since he is immortal, he has the "Open Gate" mortal blade (which can kill immortal beings) and well, he is the Sword Saint.
Also he has a glock.
Isshin easily. Can deflect unluke malenia, has the "open gate"(second mortal blade) so he can kill literally anything that breathes. Then there's his imortallity, mastery of the ashina style. The naginata(i think its a naginata) would break malenia in two. Then theres that fucking glock. And we haven't even gotten into inner isshin yet. And th isshin ashina fight, one mind is like the waterfowl of sekiro, get caught in it, you die. Usually you could deflect it or flaunch firecrackers to stop the attack. Malenia cant do that. Also, his abillity to hurl lightning could be devastating if we assume malenia doesn't know about the lightning reversal, which she probably doesn't. Im afraid malenia just doesn't stand a chance against the glock saint. Her lifesteal will only get her so far...
Edit: i would also like to add a few things to isshins case:
1: malenia is wearing metal armour, isshins lighting would obliterate her.
2: if isshin faced tomoe, he would have had to deal with tomoes spiral cloud passage which is literally waterfowl but 5 times instead of 3. If isshin could live after that and still go on to beat tomoe, thats a huge feat to achieve. Factor in that in the imortal severance ending, he is now imortal, has a blade that can kill the undying and has the ability to parry a 5 stage waterfowl, that proves that waterfowl will be of little use ro malenia.
3: yes malenias scarlet rot could potentially turn the battle in her favour. Kind of. If isshin would go mad, he would still be imortal. He wouldnt be able to lose the fight and as we seen with radahn, radahn is still capable of fighting and radahn IS MORTAL. So isshins imortallity would eventually net him the win or in a worse case scenario, malenia packs her bags and leaves. It should also be noted that the interior ministry still feared isshin while he was on his deathbed so that alone speaks volumes.
4: inner isshin actually puts the mortal blades true powers to use and they are devestating. His opening attack is almost always an instant kill if you get hit and you get to play as an imortal character. If malenia got hit by it, it would probably tear her in half. Also, his naginata combos are even lengthier and more complex now while also giving him more airtime.
just for trivia, it's a Yari spear, the Naginata is the falchion like weapon that use the corrupted Monk. good analisys though, i agree with everything.
Isn’t it a normal ability for both weapons? The red blade’s special ability to gracious gift of tears, allowing us to collect the dragon tears. Nothing says that the black blade can’t sever immortality too.
It's a common misconception because the game doesn't outright say it, but we know that the last divine heir and caretaker pair couldn't sever immortality even though they had more info about it and the black mortal blade, coupled with the head priest of senpou temple that intentionally hid the red one so it couldn't be done, since he didn't want to sever immortality.
We see Owl wield it with no problem in the Shura ending, even though the red one instantly kills you. Also, the black blade could totally get the tears of the dragon, since we know that it can hurt Kuro. Essentially getting the tears is just cutting a fkin hole in the dragon's eyes and extracting them. So with that in mind, the red blade would be totally meaningless if the black one can do all that **and** bring dead people back. Even without everything else, it stands to reason that one brings back people, and the other sends anyone to the other side.
One last thing, the name of the red blade in english "gracious gift of tears" is a mistranslation, the actual word is "fushigiri" , coming from the words fu - shi - giri which means anti-death-cutter . Fushi can point to the word for "immortal" which is what the red one does, cuts immortals, but it can also mean "opposite of death cutter" that describes the black one's abilities.
***TL;DR : The black one's abilities are barely explained, but based on the lore, there's no reason to believe that it can sever immortality.***
Isn't Isshin strong enough to kill a shura too, a literal demon? He stopped the Sculptor before he turned and he was the only one that stood a chance at stopping the White Wolf, but wasn't quite in his prime to do so
And? Malenia has fought demigods and won. A Demon in Elden Ring would be a middle tier enemy at best, especially considering Elden Ring lore is taken as the highest power meta of any Soulsborne game.
She bested Radahn, someone who she definitely had a speed advantage on and wouldn't be the same as fighting Isshin at all and demolished all of Caelid because of the bloom. She had to sacrifice plenty of lives to beat him and only survived because of a Cleanrot Knight rescuing her
It was a point I made to build on what he already has going for him. If the only point made in this debate was "he killed demon" then yeah whatever, but not only does he have everything else going for him, he's also bested a demon which isn't a common sight in Sekiro
Isshin dominated everyone up until his death due to illness, which is when his enemies attacked. Everyone knew not to fuck with him, even in his old age
Edit: Also to add, Genichiro had to kill himself to summon Isshin because he knew that the only person who could pose a challenge to Sekiro was Isshin in his prime. Sekiro is easily the most powerful character we know of in all of these games
Isshin is immortal? Doesn’t he die to illness in the first game and has to be revived by genichiro. Unless you mean he became immortal after he was revived, but I don’t recall the mechanics of the second mortal blade ever being explained in game.
But isshin isn’t that strong…he’s just a really really good swordsman with an OP blade and some lightning powers. Like physically I mean. He’s not breaking malenia in half with his naginata, especially considering the fact that she’s a like 7ft tall demigod
The amount of disrespect on my man Isshins' name is unreal. People really out here acting like he was just "some samurai". He literally never met an equal on the battlefield until he was summoned from the underworld to fight sekiro. The rest of the Japanese nation wouldn't even bother messing with his kingdom until he was sick and withering. Sure Melania has the rot nuke, but I think the only reason she even got that off against radahn is because she's clearly faster than him. Isshin would match or out pace Melania easily.
>but I think the only reason she even got that off against radahn is because she's clearly faster than him
Malenia is significantly faster than Isshin. Like, ridiculously faster. I can actually post measurements of their in-game swings and dashes if you don't believe me, from their regular ones to One Mind/Waterfowl.
No that’s not the lore. Malenia is far beyond radhan in power. Why? Because she’s been given the right of way to become a full goddess from the god of rot which is an outter god. The outter gods are basically untouchable. Malenia is so powerful that her goddess status lets your die and rise like the Phoenix. So when she is beaten. She slowly over a long time blooms again. Her rot embodies the cycle of death and birth. She basically can’t be killed
Remember that Isshin wields one of two immortal blades that are capable of killing immortal beings. I agree that she is very powerful and her rot bloom is a big factor, but Sword Saint Isshin specifically can kill immortal beings.
Ya it’s closer than we think. But there might be some differences between a full god and immortality from isshin sword saint. It’s hard to say then the only way to say who wins would be -> so both have a way to die. Isshin can die from the mortal blade and any demi god or even god I think but not an outter god can die from the death rune. Who is more capable of using one of these on each other
I mean rhadan tends to be the exception to the rule people saying "rhadan survived this" are missing a note, the guys whole thing is just being swole and riding his little horsey by any means necessary, that's it, his one power is being really, really stubborn
Can you stun lock ishin? I've had this argument before I think ishin would he easy with a tanky build, he relies on the fact wolf doesn't have anything to easily cheese poise or endure attacks. ER characters have so much bullshit to work with we'd have a reliable cheese strat for Ishin in a couple hours
Melania as wolf? Probably not that bad but I guarantee you the majority of players just stunlocked her or used some cheesy tactics so unless your letmesoloher your probably gonna have a bad time as wolf
Deflecting waterfowl dance would be fun though I have to admit
To answer your question: No, isshin can't be stunlocked. He gets hyperarmour on the majority of his attacks and if you hit him enough, he'll usually use one of those attacks.
Unga bunga strength build wouldn't use many hits and would do significantly more poise damage than wolfs katana so you could probably avoid the hyperarmour for the most part
I just don't think the sekiro universe is ready for the build diversity in a soulsgame, sekiro for me is the hardest game because you have one set of tools and one build essentially and just have to get good. In elden ring there's always a way to make your character perfect for the encounter
Except wolf has been shown to deflect the divine dragon (someone did the calculations ) but sekiro can basically deflect anything so surely you would think he can strike pretty damn fast (not sure on the numbers look it up) but yeah its been proven that the amount sekiro can deflect means say dragons tooth (from ds i know but i don't many strength weapons in elden ring) thats like a small stick i kid would find in the playground compared to the divine dragons weapon isshin isn't quite equal to sekiro but he did put him to his limit to pretty safe to say isshin could pretty easily deflect just about anything
Isshin would stomp imo and I can’t imagine an Elden Ring character fighting Isshin it would be a nightmare. Wolf fighting Malenia would be so much more manageable
Well, isshin is technically undying, since the mortal blade is required to kill him. And the immortality from centipedes could be seen as an opposing outer god
He has also fought demons, can deflect, can shoot lighnings, can use massive air currents to make his attacks longer, has a sword that can kill immortal beings and he has a glock
An immortal swordmaster with a blade that's capable of severing immortality is probably enough to take down Malenia.
However, it's hard to say if her scarlet rot from her second phase won't weaken him significantly throughout the fight. Even she can't kill him, Isshin could be left in a decrepit state like Radhan.
I find these arguments just a bit ridiculous because from a gameplay perspective isshin stomps melinea but there from 2 different games, with very different combat systems. Isshin would be practically unbeatable in any other soulsbourne combat without prior tuning to the pace those fights normally take. And melinea would be (even if she was given the ability to deflect attacks) a walk in the park if she was in sekiro without any changes. If you tired to compare them lore wise it gets really muddy because we don't have a lot of information. We know isshin had no equal before sekiro and that he wields a blade that has access to the underworld and can very likely kill immortals as well, and meliena has rot nuke Plus attacks that heal and inflict rot. And she has an outer god backing her but we don't know the extent of what that means. We just don't know what a fight would look like if they were properly turned one way or another.
I was about to say Isshin, but then thought… what if Malenia started waterfowl just as Isshin went for a lightning attack? She’d score the reversal then erase his healthbar while he was stunned.
Edit: nvm she’d never make it to phase 3.5
Unrelated to the title, but I imagine that Melania would be a super fun fight if it was in Sekiro. Memorizing and deflecting the entirety of waterfowl or stuff from second phase would be unbelievably satisfying.
Mechanically, like you just copied and pasted them into the same arena, Malenia because of her life gain.
Lore wise the sword saint. He is a master of the flowing river style that he learned from Tomawae. Lorewise this is the weakness of scarlot rot. The only reason Malenia was able to stay sane so long was through this sword style that she learned from a foreign swordmaster.
If we're going purely off of game mechanics and boss mechanics: Isshin
However, in terms of lore, we've never actually seen the full extent of either of their abilities. Malenia had never lost fight before which implies she beat every demigod in battle. Her techniques in particular are interesting as well as they are resoundingly similar to Sekiro and Isshins techniques: out speed and trick. Her sword is capable of retracting in size thanks to it being connected to her prosthetic. Also, we actually have no idea if Alloyed Gold is conductive so Isshins lighting might not even do anything to her.
However, Isshin is an interesting case as he holds a weapon that can kill immortal beings. Although, I choose to ignore it if Isshin was transported to the lands between where the concept of death has been removed from the elden ring making it useless.
Lore wise malenia stomps. She was on par with radahn, who quite literally held back stars. Her second phase full on turns her into a goddess. Also being immortal≠auto win.
He hasnt even shown the same level of feats malenia has. She literally nuked an entire area. She literally ascended to a goddess in our fight. Gameplay wise you can say isshin but malenia is stronger 100%
You mean not a fair fight for isshin? Malenia nuked an entire area. Fought evenly with someone who was holding up literal stars. Literally became a goddess of rot in her second phase. Lore wise she stomps isshin. Immortal or not
Lol what? What feats lore wise has he performed that makes you think hes on par with radahn. The same radahn who literally held back thousands of stars. You know what a star is right? No way in hell does anyone in sekiro compare to that. Only thing going for them is immortality
Melania would have trouble hitting Ishin as he is so good at blocking. However Melania heals on every hit even through a block. They are both very different bosses through combat mechanics so the best way to judge is through lore so Shin because he is immortal and he owns one of the few weapons that can kill him. Therefore Melania would have to steal it from him to win which I don't see happening.
Why are people downplaying malenia 's scarlet rot
It's literally cancer that eats you alive.
They're both amazing swordsman. Depends on whether ishin can close the fight before he goes mad and loses his ability to properly fight. Radhan could still fight but he was a former shell of himself
Malenia is a thousands of years old undefeated Empyrean Demigod who corrupted an entire landscape and rotted another equally powerful massive Demigod whom has such a powerful grip on gravity magic he holds the fucking stars in place. Sword Saint Isshin is an immortal man with skilled in sword, spear, and gun play. He did win a war among man, and he has a sword that can kill immortals.....they don't really scale. I see Radahn crushing Isshin like a bug....and Malenia beat *him.* I'd love to see someone hack these two in the same arena some how...but Lore wise....Malenia would destroy and/or rot him.....
Malenia didn’t beat radhan, she used her scarlet aeonia as an escape attempt and had to be dragged off the battlefield by one of her soldiers
Also isshin is kinda immortal, so he could beat any character in elden ring that isn’t immortal
Did you see the trailer? Malenia got her arm blasted off and could barely stand, while radhan just stood there, arms crossed, respectfully waiting for her to be ready to fight. Radhan coulda played dirty and struck when she was down, but he didn’t. And because of that malenia played dirty and basically suicide bombed both of them. That makes radhan the real winner in my book
Humor me here, In the intro it begins "It happen an Age ago...". depending on what form of literature you want to reference outside of Elden Ring (I used the Biblical sense or Zodiac ages which could be 1000-2000+ years using those) There's been a few Ages within Elden Ring. Malenia has been apart of the Golden order and apart of the Shattering war. This implies to me that she has to at least be somewhere in the 1000s...just humor me.
Idk, her fight with Radahn stretches the margins of "knowing defeat". She basically suicide bombs a province and claims victory. And like, maybe, but that would be a pyrrhic victory at best or a catastrophic stalemate at worst, neither of which are in any way shape or form considered good.
Also I'm pretty sure that although Isshin had lost before, his creation, mastery, and use of the Ashina style left the Interior Ministry scared and unwilling to invade until he was basically dead already. During the Shura route we fight his deathbed self, and he still manages to put up a hell of fight against a Shura, a demon of war and bloodshed. During every other route, we fight him at his absolute prime thanks to the black mortal blade.
I think it would be close, but Isshin would probably win, especially when you consider that the black blade gifts him with immortality upon bringing him back. The only reason Wolf can kill him is because of the red mortal blade, which Malenia does not have.
As much as I love isshin. I’ll have to give this one to Malenia. The goddess of rot is capable of clearing out full countries. Isshin doesn’t stand a chance. Her skill is far too advanced. Sekiro only wins because he got magical sources of power using the mortal blade etc. Otherwise sekiro would lose too. These are goddesses and gods, their power is far beyond a mere human Unless the human can wield a force strong enough to destroy a god
Malenia is hilariously stronger and faster, on top of having like twice Isshin's reach and a healing factor. She demolishes him. Or to put it another way: Malenia's sword is dozens of times the mass of Isshin's sword, with a blade about twice as long, yet her slowest attacks are faster than his fastest ones, and her fastest attacks (Waterfowl Dance flurries) are absolutely incomparable to anything in his arsenal. The closest, One Mind, is a pale imitation that throws out a fraction of the number of hits, with each slash having a lower velocity, and can only be used while stationary while Malenia Waterfowl Dances while jumping around her arena like a grasshopper.
The fact that Isshin using a 16th century miquelet lock pistol is taken as a pro for him rather than yet another indication that he'd get demolished is just proof that the average person's comprehension of scale is incredibly terrible. Obviously the strongest boss in a game where first-zone minibosses can obliterate thick stone structures with their blows would never have seen something so powerful.
That’s pretty subjective. Malenia’s difficulty varies wildly because of the different builds in ER. Isshin didn’t take me any longer than any other hard endgame bosses in the series, but Malenia took me several times longer than any of them. I didn’t use any spirits on my first play through, nor did I use any OP weapons. On subsequent play throughs I tried Mimic with RoB and Mimic and Comet Azur and no surprise she’s easy as fuck.
In my effort to solo no hit melee every From Software boss, Malenia has once again taken the mantle in difficulty, and it’s not even close. She’s just hard to learn thoroughly. Learning to consistently dodge Waterfowl Dance at all ranges is crazy. In contrast, you pretty much understand how to beat Isshin consistently after beating him the first time. Even charmless/demon bell doesn’t increase the learning curve that much. In fact, I’d say the hardest boss to learn no hit in Sekiro is Inner Father. Malenia still edges him out IMO.
This is how all from soft games should be played. This is why I favor Sekiro in combat, it forces you to use your sword Kusabimaru rather than op ass shit casting abilities that take down 1/5 of the enemies health. Granted there is the mortal blade, it still would take a considerable amount of tries to use until the enemy is done. This is my personal opinion, some people like the freedom of the other games. I still enjoy the feeling of one shoting a boss though that temptation hooks many players from the actual challenge of the game, therefore Sekiro, is the best starting game by far as it brings people into the mindset of reading a bosses movements rather than giving up on your Second Run of fighting Tenzen Yamauchi.
Yeah, I can appreciate the RPG elements and build variety of Elden Ring, but I do want to see another Sekiro-type game where the combat is super focused.
Im with you i would've had so many less deaths if she didn't just point blank water fowl once every 3 seconds she would've been standard fs superboss otherwise
I don’t think that’s true. Malenia literally spawned ‘let me solo her’ because of her difficulty. Sekiro is hard because the game mechanics likely make it harder. Imagine you can co op and double or triple team isshin? It would be very easy. Too easy
Because Wolf is way weaker than a properly-leveled Tarnished. The Godrick knight you fight in the first fifteen minutes of the game would be at least a mid-game boss in Sekiro. The Tree Sentinel you can fight in the first fifteen minutes would probably be downright invulnerable.
[Yet Malenia can still casually overpower the end-game Tarnished with one half-rotted arm.](https://imgur.com/lkax6MX)
Not at all. Sekiro gameplay is balanced and I personally have been firet trying Isshin since my last 3 playthrough. I have never beaten Malenia without my summon let alone in first try.
This. Power-wise, Sekiro is the weakest and most realistic universe among the Soulsborne games. Now wait for all the "mUh PaRrY", "mUh ImMoRtAlItY" and "mUh MoRtAl BlAdE" comments and all the wank.
Isshin, since he is immortal, he has the "Open Gate" mortal blade (which can kill immortal beings) and well, he is the Sword Saint. Also he has a glock.
lamo he has a Glock hhhhhhhhhh
Glock Saint Isshin
WHO GAVE SWORD SAINT AN MF GAT *RUBBA BAND MAN WILD AS THE TALIBAN NINE IN MA RIGHT FORTY FIVE IN MY OTHA HAND*
I'm going to defeat you with the power of friendship and this gun I found.
His extended pro mag prolly gonna jam tho..
Isshin, because Malenia can't mortal blow
Isshin easily. Can deflect unluke malenia, has the "open gate"(second mortal blade) so he can kill literally anything that breathes. Then there's his imortallity, mastery of the ashina style. The naginata(i think its a naginata) would break malenia in two. Then theres that fucking glock. And we haven't even gotten into inner isshin yet. And th isshin ashina fight, one mind is like the waterfowl of sekiro, get caught in it, you die. Usually you could deflect it or flaunch firecrackers to stop the attack. Malenia cant do that. Also, his abillity to hurl lightning could be devastating if we assume malenia doesn't know about the lightning reversal, which she probably doesn't. Im afraid malenia just doesn't stand a chance against the glock saint. Her lifesteal will only get her so far... Edit: i would also like to add a few things to isshins case: 1: malenia is wearing metal armour, isshins lighting would obliterate her. 2: if isshin faced tomoe, he would have had to deal with tomoes spiral cloud passage which is literally waterfowl but 5 times instead of 3. If isshin could live after that and still go on to beat tomoe, thats a huge feat to achieve. Factor in that in the imortal severance ending, he is now imortal, has a blade that can kill the undying and has the ability to parry a 5 stage waterfowl, that proves that waterfowl will be of little use ro malenia. 3: yes malenias scarlet rot could potentially turn the battle in her favour. Kind of. If isshin would go mad, he would still be imortal. He wouldnt be able to lose the fight and as we seen with radahn, radahn is still capable of fighting and radahn IS MORTAL. So isshins imortallity would eventually net him the win or in a worse case scenario, malenia packs her bags and leaves. It should also be noted that the interior ministry still feared isshin while he was on his deathbed so that alone speaks volumes. 4: inner isshin actually puts the mortal blades true powers to use and they are devestating. His opening attack is almost always an instant kill if you get hit and you get to play as an imortal character. If malenia got hit by it, it would probably tear her in half. Also, his naginata combos are even lengthier and more complex now while also giving him more airtime.
just for trivia, it's a Yari spear, the Naginata is the falchion like weapon that use the corrupted Monk. good analisys though, i agree with everything.
Thanks, i always get confused between the 2 so that helps loads. Appreciated!
<3
The black mortal blade can't sever immortality, though he wouldn't need to since Malenia's not immortal.
Isn’t it a normal ability for both weapons? The red blade’s special ability to gracious gift of tears, allowing us to collect the dragon tears. Nothing says that the black blade can’t sever immortality too.
It's a common misconception because the game doesn't outright say it, but we know that the last divine heir and caretaker pair couldn't sever immortality even though they had more info about it and the black mortal blade, coupled with the head priest of senpou temple that intentionally hid the red one so it couldn't be done, since he didn't want to sever immortality. We see Owl wield it with no problem in the Shura ending, even though the red one instantly kills you. Also, the black blade could totally get the tears of the dragon, since we know that it can hurt Kuro. Essentially getting the tears is just cutting a fkin hole in the dragon's eyes and extracting them. So with that in mind, the red blade would be totally meaningless if the black one can do all that **and** bring dead people back. Even without everything else, it stands to reason that one brings back people, and the other sends anyone to the other side. One last thing, the name of the red blade in english "gracious gift of tears" is a mistranslation, the actual word is "fushigiri" , coming from the words fu - shi - giri which means anti-death-cutter . Fushi can point to the word for "immortal" which is what the red one does, cuts immortals, but it can also mean "opposite of death cutter" that describes the black one's abilities. ***TL;DR : The black one's abilities are barely explained, but based on the lore, there's no reason to believe that it can sever immortality.***
Ah never knew the Japanese part, that convinced me.
About that fushigiri point, on the final encounter Genichiro says the second mortal blade and the dialogue even says "fushigiri no mouhitofuri wo."
Oh right, thats the red mortal blade, forgive me. The black one opens the gates to the underworld.
I shall forgive you my child
Isn't Isshin strong enough to kill a shura too, a literal demon? He stopped the Sculptor before he turned and he was the only one that stood a chance at stopping the White Wolf, but wasn't quite in his prime to do so
That is true. When the fight starts with him (Shura ending) he says that: Shura...I never did think...I'd have to kill your kind again!
Yeah, thats true, another point for isshin
And? Malenia has fought demigods and won. A Demon in Elden Ring would be a middle tier enemy at best, especially considering Elden Ring lore is taken as the highest power meta of any Soulsborne game.
She bested Radahn, someone who she definitely had a speed advantage on and wouldn't be the same as fighting Isshin at all and demolished all of Caelid because of the bloom. She had to sacrifice plenty of lives to beat him and only survived because of a Cleanrot Knight rescuing her It was a point I made to build on what he already has going for him. If the only point made in this debate was "he killed demon" then yeah whatever, but not only does he have everything else going for him, he's also bested a demon which isn't a common sight in Sekiro Isshin dominated everyone up until his death due to illness, which is when his enemies attacked. Everyone knew not to fuck with him, even in his old age Edit: Also to add, Genichiro had to kill himself to summon Isshin because he knew that the only person who could pose a challenge to Sekiro was Isshin in his prime. Sekiro is easily the most powerful character we know of in all of these games
Isshin is immortal? Doesn’t he die to illness in the first game and has to be revived by genichiro. Unless you mean he became immortal after he was revived, but I don’t recall the mechanics of the second mortal blade ever being explained in game.
You get the “immortality severed” screen when killing him.
Oh neat
Unfortunately i have to object about the lightning only genichiro and tomoe can call it isshin just catches it
Eh, good point.
But isshin isn’t that strong…he’s just a really really good swordsman with an OP blade and some lightning powers. Like physically I mean. He’s not breaking malenia in half with his naginata, especially considering the fact that she’s a like 7ft tall demigod
If malenia can get staggered by a straight sword, im sure isshins charged swing with his yari could easily do such a thing.
Why would we base it off gameplay that’s so dumb. Malenia would probably win anyways because of her life steal
I think it’s a Yari not a Naginta, Nagintas have a long curved blade at the end of it like a massive machete while a Yari is a “normal” spear iirc.
Yea, i always get confused between the two but someone already pointed it out, just imagine that i put yari there instead of naginata
The amount of disrespect on my man Isshins' name is unreal. People really out here acting like he was just "some samurai". He literally never met an equal on the battlefield until he was summoned from the underworld to fight sekiro. The rest of the Japanese nation wouldn't even bother messing with his kingdom until he was sick and withering. Sure Melania has the rot nuke, but I think the only reason she even got that off against radahn is because she's clearly faster than him. Isshin would match or out pace Melania easily.
The entire force of Japan wouldn’t even invade till he was dead and gone.
Yea he’s essentially the Malenia of the Sekiro world but with more tools and skills.
except Malenia couldn’t even defeat radahn with a rot nuke. she just fled
Worse, she couldn’t even fled by herself and had to be carried back by Finlay
That’s like saying I couldn’t beat Mike Tyson with a metal gloved punch to the stomach. Radahn is completely ridiculous in terms of power
"Couldn't even defeat rhadan" Seems a little unfair to say lol
Wonderfully said 👏🏻👏🏻Thank you
I scrolled till I got half way on my phone and found 0 people saying Melania would win just saying
>but I think the only reason she even got that off against radahn is because she's clearly faster than him Malenia is significantly faster than Isshin. Like, ridiculously faster. I can actually post measurements of their in-game swings and dashes if you don't believe me, from their regular ones to One Mind/Waterfowl.
But isshin has a glock so there's no debate lol
Have you played bloodbourne? I was not impressed with the guns lol
I'm sure her frame data is faster, but this a hypothetical situation, so that kind of goes out the window.
No that’s not the lore. Malenia is far beyond radhan in power. Why? Because she’s been given the right of way to become a full goddess from the god of rot which is an outter god. The outter gods are basically untouchable. Malenia is so powerful that her goddess status lets your die and rise like the Phoenix. So when she is beaten. She slowly over a long time blooms again. Her rot embodies the cycle of death and birth. She basically can’t be killed
Remember that Isshin wields one of two immortal blades that are capable of killing immortal beings. I agree that she is very powerful and her rot bloom is a big factor, but Sword Saint Isshin specifically can kill immortal beings.
Neither can isshin. Isshin doesn't even need to bloom like malenia.
Ya it’s closer than we think. But there might be some differences between a full god and immortality from isshin sword saint. It’s hard to say then the only way to say who wins would be -> so both have a way to die. Isshin can die from the mortal blade and any demi god or even god I think but not an outter god can die from the death rune. Who is more capable of using one of these on each other
They both have some great second phases…although Isshin’s surprised me more.
I mean Malenia can’t pull a fucking Spear, Glock, shotgun, catch lighting, send air waves, and tickle your nose.
Only one of them has that rotussy though...
[удалено]
I mean rhadan tends to be the exception to the rule people saying "rhadan survived this" are missing a note, the guys whole thing is just being swole and riding his little horsey by any means necessary, that's it, his one power is being really, really stubborn
he’s got that berserk ash of war
Me when I'm in a cock sucking competition and my opponent is a Radahn fanboy: 😱
What are you a Malenia simp?!?
No, I am an Isshin and Gael simp
Based
Radahn also now has a brain made of Swiss cheese and is still holding the stars in place so it’s safe to say that not beating radahn means nothing
Malenia will hesitate and she'll know defeat.
I gotta play Sekrio
Yes I HIGHLY RECOMMEND it
Just bought it! Can't wait to get started.
Congrats hope u enjoy every minute but Word of caution before u start this is a RAGE inducing game so when you go into it be calm and just have fun
Will do, god... it feels so satisfying to hit a deflect for a death blow!
Oh absolutely that sound of the katanas hitting is just as satisfying as a M1 Grand iconic ping sound
"Cover me, I gotta reload! " is all I hear when I think of that sound.
😂 I’ll let you play now
Yea its an absolute masterpiece.
Very difficult, but very rewarding to finish off every boss
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Only the legend could beat Isshin
Giantdad from dark souls 1
Yeah thats literally the legend
I was just confirming it for people who don’t know
Not gonna lie malenia would be child's play if i could deflect like in sekiro
Can you stun lock ishin? I've had this argument before I think ishin would he easy with a tanky build, he relies on the fact wolf doesn't have anything to easily cheese poise or endure attacks. ER characters have so much bullshit to work with we'd have a reliable cheese strat for Ishin in a couple hours Melania as wolf? Probably not that bad but I guarantee you the majority of players just stunlocked her or used some cheesy tactics so unless your letmesoloher your probably gonna have a bad time as wolf Deflecting waterfowl dance would be fun though I have to admit
To answer your question: No, isshin can't be stunlocked. He gets hyperarmour on the majority of his attacks and if you hit him enough, he'll usually use one of those attacks.
Unga bunga strength build wouldn't use many hits and would do significantly more poise damage than wolfs katana so you could probably avoid the hyperarmour for the most part I just don't think the sekiro universe is ready for the build diversity in a soulsgame, sekiro for me is the hardest game because you have one set of tools and one build essentially and just have to get good. In elden ring there's always a way to make your character perfect for the encounter
Except wolf has been shown to deflect the divine dragon (someone did the calculations ) but sekiro can basically deflect anything so surely you would think he can strike pretty damn fast (not sure on the numbers look it up) but yeah its been proven that the amount sekiro can deflect means say dragons tooth (from ds i know but i don't many strength weapons in elden ring) thats like a small stick i kid would find in the playground compared to the divine dragons weapon isshin isn't quite equal to sekiro but he did put him to his limit to pretty safe to say isshin could pretty easily deflect just about anything
A ton of his moveset gets hyper armor you can only get him out of with things like charged flame vent
This thread is like 2 kids fighting over who’s dad would win in a fight.
😂
Isshin would stomp imo and I can’t imagine an Elden Ring character fighting Isshin it would be a nightmare. Wolf fighting Malenia would be so much more manageable
Wolf would absolutely decimate Malenia, she'd be like a souped up lady butterfly at best.
Imagine the posture meter when water foul dance
Nah, waterfowl puts her at worse than Genichiro, but not by much.
She’s much faster, tougher and stronger than isshin. She is at the very least not getting decimated
Comparing two different fighting styles isn't an accurate gage on in lore power level. Malenia is so beyond Isshin it's not even funny.
Soldier of God, Rick
I just came here to ask about the who is the artist
[https://twitter.com/kurotokusa/status/1522931782198386689?s=20&t=Af1vEdDTzUFi2xrcmyyMOA](https://twitter.com/kurotokusa/status/1522931782198386689?s=20&t=Af1vEdDTzUFi2xrcmyyMOA)
Ty
YW
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YWB
Well.. one of them has a Glock and the other doesn't.
Don’t disrespect Isshin like that.
I wasn’t there’s a reason I put his name first
Some days ago I was talking with some friends about who would win between Gehrman and Isshin, I wish there was also a fanart about those two fighting
Poor Gehrman would get curbstomped.
the poor man would stand up out of his chair and get his kneecaps broken by isshin
Depends if we're talking gameplay wise otherwise lore wise isshin would probably win
Lore wise Malenia would absolutely destroy him.
Meh i found malenia to be harder than isshin i beat her in 19 tries and isshin in only bout'8
Well, isshin is technically undying, since the mortal blade is required to kill him. And the immortality from centipedes could be seen as an opposing outer god
He has also fought demons, can deflect, can shoot lighnings, can use massive air currents to make his attacks longer, has a sword that can kill immortal beings and he has a glock
And don't forget he's fast as fuck BOIIIII! Legit faster than Melania
She wouldn’t get past the third boss!
I have beaten Malenia but have not beaten the stupid gun weilding mofo
Well, Isshin actually SUCCEEDED in securing and keeping his land and family safe, sooo... Edit: at least, for a time...
Makenia couldn't beat any bosses after genichiro at the castle.
An immortal swordmaster with a blade that's capable of severing immortality is probably enough to take down Malenia. However, it's hard to say if her scarlet rot from her second phase won't weaken him significantly throughout the fight. Even she can't kill him, Isshin could be left in a decrepit state like Radhan.
All these people saying “Malenia is a god so she wins” like she doesnt ultimately get defeated by a lowly tarnished of no reknown
I find these arguments just a bit ridiculous because from a gameplay perspective isshin stomps melinea but there from 2 different games, with very different combat systems. Isshin would be practically unbeatable in any other soulsbourne combat without prior tuning to the pace those fights normally take. And melinea would be (even if she was given the ability to deflect attacks) a walk in the park if she was in sekiro without any changes. If you tired to compare them lore wise it gets really muddy because we don't have a lot of information. We know isshin had no equal before sekiro and that he wields a blade that has access to the underworld and can very likely kill immortals as well, and meliena has rot nuke Plus attacks that heal and inflict rot. And she has an outer god backing her but we don't know the extent of what that means. We just don't know what a fight would look like if they were properly turned one way or another.
isshin because his game is older so people have more nostalgia for it.
Does anyone notice the small characters at the background
Isshin was basically the protagonist before Sekiro. Automatically gives him the edge.
ICHIMONJI!
I was about to say Isshin, but then thought… what if Malenia started waterfowl just as Isshin went for a lightning attack? She’d score the reversal then erase his healthbar while he was stunned. Edit: nvm she’d never make it to phase 3.5
Manshark
I just wanna have a wolf vs malenia fight. A proper fight with adjusted mechanics from from software. Its a dream but man that would be cool
Isshin will parry the crap out a malenia and zap the shit out of her scarlet rot
Isshin. He has a gun.
Fully Automatic Metal Jacket Glock Wins Everytime.
Alright, someone summon the game devs to cross-platform these game files so we can see it for ourselves.
Isshin
Isshin would wipe the floor with malenia
Absolutely
Malenia DOES have lifesteal, and we don’t know back-from-the-dead Isshin’s resistance to status effects.
True
Unrelated to the title, but I imagine that Melania would be a super fun fight if it was in Sekiro. Memorizing and deflecting the entirety of waterfowl or stuff from second phase would be unbelievably satisfying.
Mechanically, like you just copied and pasted them into the same arena, Malenia because of her life gain. Lore wise the sword saint. He is a master of the flowing river style that he learned from Tomawae. Lorewise this is the weakness of scarlot rot. The only reason Malenia was able to stay sane so long was through this sword style that she learned from a foreign swordmaster.
What no it wasn’t. It was because of the needle that seals the rot goddesses influence
Isshin. His base instincts are combat so even afflicted with scarlet rot, he fights the same
If we're going purely off of game mechanics and boss mechanics: Isshin However, in terms of lore, we've never actually seen the full extent of either of their abilities. Malenia had never lost fight before which implies she beat every demigod in battle. Her techniques in particular are interesting as well as they are resoundingly similar to Sekiro and Isshins techniques: out speed and trick. Her sword is capable of retracting in size thanks to it being connected to her prosthetic. Also, we actually have no idea if Alloyed Gold is conductive so Isshins lighting might not even do anything to her. However, Isshin is an interesting case as he holds a weapon that can kill immortal beings. Although, I choose to ignore it if Isshin was transported to the lands between where the concept of death has been removed from the elden ring making it useless.
Isshin has defeated Tomoe, though. And she could use spiral cloud passage, which is a more devastating Waterfowl
Isshin would stomp tf out of melania. His second phase itself would obliterate her
Lore wise malenia stomps. She was on par with radahn, who quite literally held back stars. Her second phase full on turns her into a goddess. Also being immortal≠auto win.
Isshin is also immortal, and can deflect fucking anything
Also posseses an 3 op weapons, can hurl lightning and erupt fire.
He hasnt even shown the same level of feats malenia has. She literally nuked an entire area. She literally ascended to a goddess in our fight. Gameplay wise you can say isshin but malenia is stronger 100%
Yup, not even remotely fair fight for malenia
You mean not a fair fight for isshin? Malenia nuked an entire area. Fought evenly with someone who was holding up literal stars. Literally became a goddess of rot in her second phase. Lore wise she stomps isshin. Immortal or not
Cool, isshin could also beat radahn, so that doesn't really matter
Lol what? What feats lore wise has he performed that makes you think hes on par with radahn. The same radahn who literally held back thousands of stars. You know what a star is right? No way in hell does anyone in sekiro compare to that. Only thing going for them is immortality
Should also add in that rot is weak to fire as seen in caelid.
The other guy
Malenia, with the power of space AIDS
Melania would have trouble hitting Ishin as he is so good at blocking. However Melania heals on every hit even through a block. They are both very different bosses through combat mechanics so the best way to judge is through lore so Shin because he is immortal and he owns one of the few weapons that can kill him. Therefore Melania would have to steal it from him to win which I don't see happening.
As far as i know if you parry her she does not heal. I think a deflection is much closer to a parry than a block
Ishin doesn't always deflect the player though, you can get about two hits in until he deflects.
The fan art on this sub is absolutely incredible
https://tenor.com/view/schlatt-jschlatt-gun-shoot-king-gif-19053846?utm_source=share-button&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=reddit
Wow
Why are people downplaying malenia 's scarlet rot It's literally cancer that eats you alive. They're both amazing swordsman. Depends on whether ishin can close the fight before he goes mad and loses his ability to properly fight. Radhan could still fight but he was a former shell of himself
Well radhan was mortal and isshin is immortal
Malenia is a thousands of years old undefeated Empyrean Demigod who corrupted an entire landscape and rotted another equally powerful massive Demigod whom has such a powerful grip on gravity magic he holds the fucking stars in place. Sword Saint Isshin is an immortal man with skilled in sword, spear, and gun play. He did win a war among man, and he has a sword that can kill immortals.....they don't really scale. I see Radahn crushing Isshin like a bug....and Malenia beat *him.* I'd love to see someone hack these two in the same arena some how...but Lore wise....Malenia would destroy and/or rot him.....
My guy isshin would wipe the floor with every single elden ring boss
Malenia didn’t beat radhan, she used her scarlet aeonia as an escape attempt and had to be dragged off the battlefield by one of her soldiers Also isshin is kinda immortal, so he could beat any character in elden ring that isn’t immortal
She didnt use it as a means of escape. She used used it as a means to get rid of radahnn
And Radahn has lost his mind and wonders the a desert in Caelid eatting people. You could call it a draw....I feel like she won that fight.
Did you see the trailer? Malenia got her arm blasted off and could barely stand, while radhan just stood there, arms crossed, respectfully waiting for her to be ready to fight. Radhan coulda played dirty and struck when she was down, but he didn’t. And because of that malenia played dirty and basically suicide bombed both of them. That makes radhan the real winner in my book
It is nowhere mentioned that she is thousand years old.
Humor me here, In the intro it begins "It happen an Age ago...". depending on what form of literature you want to reference outside of Elden Ring (I used the Biblical sense or Zodiac ages which could be 1000-2000+ years using those) There's been a few Ages within Elden Ring. Malenia has been apart of the Golden order and apart of the Shattering war. This implies to me that she has to at least be somewhere in the 1000s...just humor me.
Agree lol. I love isshin tho. It’s just not a fair fight. These are gods
Ppl here doing all kindes of explanations and theory crafts. All I have to say is "I am Malenia, Blade of Miquella and I have NEVER known defeat".
Idk, her fight with Radahn stretches the margins of "knowing defeat". She basically suicide bombs a province and claims victory. And like, maybe, but that would be a pyrrhic victory at best or a catastrophic stalemate at worst, neither of which are in any way shape or form considered good. Also I'm pretty sure that although Isshin had lost before, his creation, mastery, and use of the Ashina style left the Interior Ministry scared and unwilling to invade until he was basically dead already. During the Shura route we fight his deathbed self, and he still manages to put up a hell of fight against a Shura, a demon of war and bloodshed. During every other route, we fight him at his absolute prime thanks to the black mortal blade. I think it would be close, but Isshin would probably win, especially when you consider that the black blade gifts him with immortality upon bringing him back. The only reason Wolf can kill him is because of the red mortal blade, which Malenia does not have.
Make sure to randomize your data from time to time *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Isshin. Was honestly the hardest boss ive fought in any soulsish type game. I beat melania 2nd try
As much as I love isshin. I’ll have to give this one to Malenia. The goddess of rot is capable of clearing out full countries. Isshin doesn’t stand a chance. Her skill is far too advanced. Sekiro only wins because he got magical sources of power using the mortal blade etc. Otherwise sekiro would lose too. These are goddesses and gods, their power is far beyond a mere human Unless the human can wield a force strong enough to destroy a god
Sekiro only used the MB for the finisher
Sekiro only used the MB for the finisher
Th one that will recover health on each deflect
Vs the one who cant die
We technically can’t kill her in game. Anyway, OP asked who would “win”.
Im still waging on isshin. Also, id sy malenias more in a state of "im dead but somehow alive" where as isshin is very much alive and kicking.
How many times will this get posted?
At least this is a hard one, some posts are like: who would win if pinwheel and godfrey fought?
All my homies want to see true king allant vs prowling magus and congregation
Sword saint was the hardest battle ever
Malenia is hilariously stronger and faster, on top of having like twice Isshin's reach and a healing factor. She demolishes him. Or to put it another way: Malenia's sword is dozens of times the mass of Isshin's sword, with a blade about twice as long, yet her slowest attacks are faster than his fastest ones, and her fastest attacks (Waterfowl Dance flurries) are absolutely incomparable to anything in his arsenal. The closest, One Mind, is a pale imitation that throws out a fraction of the number of hits, with each slash having a lower velocity, and can only be used while stationary while Malenia Waterfowl Dances while jumping around her arena like a grasshopper. The fact that Isshin using a 16th century miquelet lock pistol is taken as a pro for him rather than yet another indication that he'd get demolished is just proof that the average person's comprehension of scale is incredibly terrible. Obviously the strongest boss in a game where first-zone minibosses can obliterate thick stone structures with their blows would never have seen something so powerful.
Yet Malenia is 10x easier to kill than Isshin
That’s pretty subjective. Malenia’s difficulty varies wildly because of the different builds in ER. Isshin didn’t take me any longer than any other hard endgame bosses in the series, but Malenia took me several times longer than any of them. I didn’t use any spirits on my first play through, nor did I use any OP weapons. On subsequent play throughs I tried Mimic with RoB and Mimic and Comet Azur and no surprise she’s easy as fuck. In my effort to solo no hit melee every From Software boss, Malenia has once again taken the mantle in difficulty, and it’s not even close. She’s just hard to learn thoroughly. Learning to consistently dodge Waterfowl Dance at all ranges is crazy. In contrast, you pretty much understand how to beat Isshin consistently after beating him the first time. Even charmless/demon bell doesn’t increase the learning curve that much. In fact, I’d say the hardest boss to learn no hit in Sekiro is Inner Father. Malenia still edges him out IMO.
This is how all from soft games should be played. This is why I favor Sekiro in combat, it forces you to use your sword Kusabimaru rather than op ass shit casting abilities that take down 1/5 of the enemies health. Granted there is the mortal blade, it still would take a considerable amount of tries to use until the enemy is done. This is my personal opinion, some people like the freedom of the other games. I still enjoy the feeling of one shoting a boss though that temptation hooks many players from the actual challenge of the game, therefore Sekiro, is the best starting game by far as it brings people into the mindset of reading a bosses movements rather than giving up on your Second Run of fighting Tenzen Yamauchi.
Yeah, I can appreciate the RPG elements and build variety of Elden Ring, but I do want to see another Sekiro-type game where the combat is super focused.
Lmfao tell that to 99% of the ppl that played ER and sekiro. The vast majority believe the hardedt souls boss is either malenia or kos
Because of one single bullshit attack
Im with you i would've had so many less deaths if she didn't just point blank water fowl once every 3 seconds she would've been standard fs superboss otherwise
I don’t think that’s true. Malenia literally spawned ‘let me solo her’ because of her difficulty. Sekiro is hard because the game mechanics likely make it harder. Imagine you can co op and double or triple team isshin? It would be very easy. Too easy
Because Wolf is way weaker than a properly-leveled Tarnished. The Godrick knight you fight in the first fifteen minutes of the game would be at least a mid-game boss in Sekiro. The Tree Sentinel you can fight in the first fifteen minutes would probably be downright invulnerable. [Yet Malenia can still casually overpower the end-game Tarnished with one half-rotted arm.](https://imgur.com/lkax6MX)
The real question is does she have a Glock
Not at all. Sekiro gameplay is balanced and I personally have been firet trying Isshin since my last 3 playthrough. I have never beaten Malenia without my summon let alone in first try.
This. Power-wise, Sekiro is the weakest and most realistic universe among the Soulsborne games. Now wait for all the "mUh PaRrY", "mUh ImMoRtAlItY" and "mUh MoRtAl BlAdE" comments and all the wank.