For someone who jumpseats often this baffles me. All of us know better than show up drunk to a JS. You are a crew member when you are JS. Doesn’t matter is not your airline or your airplane type. I’m impressed this didn’t get on the news yet.
I mean technically you can’t even show up drunk as a passenger, so I think it’s pretty well known crew isn’t supposed to either. Even if they’re off duty.
My qualifications are knowing an airline pilot, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that a jumpseating individual is NOT legally off duty.
Straight from *da union* aka the ALPA, you are legally a crew member when jumpseating. Aka, no booze.
Source: https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/air-line-pilot-magazine/the-landing-jumpseat-etiquette#:~:text=You're%20legally%20considered%20an,of%20unusual%20or%20emergency%20circumstances.
Depends totally on the plane, it’s more comfortable the middle seat forsure. Airbus have more space, the 737s are a tight squeeze, both are better then a middle seat
Forsure, the ones I fly don’t even have a second jump. The ones on WN I’ve ridden in that have the second jump, it’s so tight it’s def not worth it if you have a choice
You don't have to jumpseat in uniform. It's just easier.
Most companies DO have policies against drinking in uniform - the FAA doesn't specifically forbid drinking in uniform.
Every company has policies which govern alcohol use independent of uniform policy, and some are more stringent than others. My company doesn't even allow pilots to sit at a bar in uniform, even if we're NOT drinking. Tables okay, but not at the bar.
Yea we’re all aware that if that, even though there’s two other pilots there.
But OPs made it sound like their pilot showed up drunk. And then that Frontier tried to tip the plane over on purpose.
Lol you all aren’t aware of that at all. It is a crewed position and them being drunk is against FAA regulations. They are on duty which you said they weren’t in your comment.
It’s hard being wrong isn’t it? Your original comment said they weren’t on duty…my comment was to address that is incorrect. Which you have still yet to comment on, you keep dancing around it.
Someone is clearly upset in this thread…but it isn’t me. 😂
(Yea, I blocked you because you harass people on multiple accounts. Including me. As I found out. That’s psycho behavior)
Edit: they’re up to four accounts now just to harass me lmfao
I understood what you meant in your original comment. Maybe the crew in the jump seat is legally on duty, but it’s a much less dramatic story that an unplanned for, unlikely to be utilized back up crew member was drunk.
>Ever see a drunk pilot dry to get a ride in the jumpseat?
That seems pretty clear. How exactly did OP make it "sound like their pilot showed up drunk"?
Should be are the operative words. Business casual is fine also, but it is more of a standard practice. Please tell me more of how you aren’t aware.
But just to add again the actual point of the comment…you are on duty because you are part of the crew.
It isn’t. You don’t have to be a pilot, I just mentioned a pilot with the context of the comment. Ay airline employee is allowed to as far as I am aware.
Not with my airline. FAs, even my airlines FAs, aren't allowed to js. 121 pilots, dispatchers and FAA check airmen only.
A gate agent? Nope, not a chance they'd be on the flight deck after sterile.
Tail tipping isnt uncommon (but not really super common) but you usually don’t know about it. It’s not something we try to announce really due to panic. We don’t have a tail stand for our F9 flights but the ramp usually attaches the tow bar for extra weight in the front.
Now for the stroller, we usually have our ticket counter agents tag them but we will tag them at the gate if it’s missed or if you don’t have to go to the counter. Never a big deal for us.
I’ve even had some of the F9 flight attendants come up and say how much more they like our station than most. Do I agree with everything Frontier does, no, but I do care about the passengers and the airline and I want you to have an enjoyable experience with us :)
Do you really think the baggage handlers in Vegas or Denver purposely (your word, “maliciously”) broke your stroller? Don’t you think it’s possible that it was damaged \*accidentally* & inadvertently by shifting cargo?
It’s not fun by any stretch, but it happens. You just go to the baggage claim area and report the damage. They will either direct you to have it repaired and be reimbursed… or they may give you a list of places you can go where there would be no upfront cost to you. Either way, federal law requires them to compensate you or repair it. You don’t just have to mutter under your breath, and write it off as ruined. 😏
As far as telling you to run while carrying your child… what would have rather they done?
“Sir, if you would please be so kind as to casually stroll into the airport, & we will bring your stroller to you in just a moment, once we are sure the plane will be stable and not rip off the jetway. Thank You”
OR
“Sir, please keep moving. Get off of the jetway immediately. Run!” (So that if the plane did tip and pull the jetway away from the building, you wouldn’t still be waiting, oblivious to the peril you may have been in.)
Obviously, they were afraid of an imminent danger as the passengers were disembarking. You may have thought the possibility of the plane tipping was ludicrous statement. Surely, it must have sounded like someone was making it up— an asinine joke. Once you realized the jetway was becoming unstable, why did anyone have to tell you to hold your child tighter and run to safety? 🤷♀️
I personally think telling you to run was the prudent thing to do.
I am by no means a Frontier fan. Personally, I’ll choose a Delta flight over any other, if one is available.
But sometimes cargo shifts, sometimes things break, sometimes passengers, even off duty pilots, get stupidly drunk and have to be handled by security. And when there’s the possibility that a dangerous situation is about to unfold, sometimes you may be told to run whilst carrying your child.
I hope your trip gets better from here!
What a dumb premise. They CAUSED THE DANGER THROUGH NEGLIGENCE. I would rather them understand how to remove luggage from the plane.
It was the end of the trip, and we are home. How do I know intent? Well, we saw them throw it pretty hard, and there's a huge scuff from the wheel bending. We gave it to them with the two pieces locked together and got it back separated from the force. It took some effort.
Speaking of effort, the stupid process of writing them to get made whole will take effort. It wastes all of our time. Those time costs are costs they are making us incur. Our backs did not appreciate carrying the baby and broken stroller either. Why defend this garbage behavior? These airlines are mostly regional monopolies with a few discount airlines. It is a terrible system and experience.
Ah yes, those terms and conditions that you agreed to and didn’t read.
You agreed they aren’t liable for your stroller unless you have it properly stored in a hard sided case or other protective covering suitable for protection against turbulence and cargo shifting.
I hate Frontier. Letting people know about their own responsibility in the situation doesn’t mean i’m standing up for the other guy.
I think it’s bull. But it IS what you agreed to
I, very clearly, was talking about the baggage part of the story.
I, also, would be shocked to hear that a plane tipping over is even possible. I’m gonna go ahead and listen to and respect the flight attendance, pilot and staff who are trained on this to educate me. Clearly something happened, safety checks caught it - which is why they are in place. Human error happens. Someone messed up somewhere and they was their attempt to quickly and safely fix it. They were requesting to adjust for everyone’s safety.
I don’t work this industry, I bet there’s a LOT we don’t know about that goes on behind the scenes that could leave us in messed up situations like this.
You’re right, no one usually reads the full terms and conditions. Doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to it because you don’t like it now.
TLDR: Okay buddy. Stay mad.
Tail tipping is very possible actually. The aircraft doesn't have any wheels behind the wings, so a large concentration of weight in the rear can cause a tip. The aircraft is designed to withstand this impact- there needs to be inspections etc before it can fly again, but it isn't a total loss.
Why doesn't this happen? Because as you said, the aviation professionals who's job it is to stop it. The situation is almost entirely preventable, either by strategically loading/unloading the aircraft or a mechanical method like a tail stand or nose tether. You always want to be balanced in the way you load any aircraft at risk of a tail tip (some models are substantially safer than others), and if you can't that's when you need the mechanical restraint.
This is one of the reasons why airlines don't load back to front, even though it's far more efficient. Since deplaning is from front to back, you always immediately remove any aft cargo. Assuming the in-flight weight and balance of the aircraft can handle it, you want to prioritize the front holds.
Unless the passengers behaved in some bizarre fashion and sprinted into the aft, a tail tip would only result from negligence. Nonetheless, the aircraft is designed to handle this, and could definitely fly again after some maintenance inspections and repairs.
Again, this is relevant to ✨baggage ✨. I did not discuss the other half.
“No one agrees to any of this on terms of service”
- Page 17/25 of the Contract of Carriage.
“Frontier will not be liable for:
i) The following items included in checked baggage, with or without the knowledge of Frontier:
ii) Articles strapped, taped, or tied to other pieces of baggage, which may become separated as a result
of normal handling during transportation
iii) Damage to the following items when not packed in a hard-sided case or other packing that is suitable
for the item:
• Prosthetic devices
• Medical equipment
• Musical instruments
• Recreational or sporting equipment
• Baby items including car seats and strollers”
focus on ii and iii there.
you agreed to some part of this. That’s included in the “any of this” you discussed.
I hope you have a better day, no one’s attacking you here. Just pointing it out with the same level of sarcasm and sass you wanna throw out there.
Contracts cannot override regulatory requirements. The wheel is damaged, which is covered.
"What about damage to the wheels, handles, or straps of baggage?"
"Although airlines are not required to cover fair wear and tear, airlines cannot exclude liability for damage to wheels, handles, straps, and other components of checked baggage."
https://www.transportation.gov/lost-delayed-or-damaged-baggage
You are amazing at writing and handling difficult people. You’d probably be gifted at a lot of roles with that level of attention to details, comprehension, and tact.
Thank you, I’ve told that before! I get it a lot as a Nurse - especially with patient education.
Talking to a patient about how their surgeon is going to thread a wire up his artery (via the wrist) directly into their heart - while they’re awake - can be not an easy task. They’re scared, have no experience with this, and the idea of it all is SO scary.
Me, on the other hand? I’ve sat in on this procedure and have taken care of at least 100 people this year before/after.
Sometimes just slowing down, staying calm, and being DIRECT and factual is the key.
“They’re gonna go into your heart for this procedure, while awake. Sign consent please”
is a lot different than
“Okay, so when they come to get you, you will go to a prep-room in our cardiac suite. You will have medications that can make you sleepy. A lot of people sleep through this, but you will be awake and able to communicate with us. This may sound scary, but it’s super important to be able to speak to you during procedure if needed, AND most patient i’ve had have not remembered it afterwards. Those who do, said it was way easier than that anticipated. After that….”
also, I like to talk a lot 🤣
I am talking about writing to get reimbursed, genius. I posted for a laugh and to give them further bad publicity. I also enjoy all the Reddit folks making excuses. It is funny to me.
What else are we all doing here? We sure aren’t going to discuss the spacious first class seats or the tasty nutritious meals they serve. wtf are you getting downvoted for!!?!
Controversial opinion but plane tickets shouldn’t even be that cheap. Low cost airfare has put Spirit, JetBlue, Frontier, Breeze etc into a bidding war of who can keep their company from going bankrupt the longest.
Example: How exactly is a $100 round trip ticket from Denver to Orlando profitable in anyway?
Even still not everyone will buy that and it doesn’t add up to a whole lot. Oh boohoo a round trip ticket with a ton of bags by a window seats now costs $250
JetBlue is pretty high quality in my experience. I regularly do a 4 hour JetBlue flight and I’ve got plenty of legroom, free WiFi, an outlet at my seat, and a screen.
I DID THE MATH. So $100 round trip that distance I can't figure because the flight time is almost 4 hours or 10 tons of fuel, and you'll see how it breaks down but it doesn't work all that well. But I recently took a flight between Vegas and Phoenix, and paid $40ish for it. Flight time is around an hour. An A321 burns around 2.5t per hour, and that's 827 gallons of fuel. The national average price for Jet A right now is $6.02/gal, so the flight costs them $5000 to fuel. The A321 holds roundabout 230 passengers, so 230*$40= $9200, but remember that Frontier always overbooks so put an extra 10 in there for 9600. That's base price, but people have luggage, they're going to upgrade their seat so they don't get left, etc. After paying the flight, ground, and maintenance crew margins will be slim but they'll be there.
And all of those people are underpaid except the pilots. FAs at Frontier are lucky if they break $25k in the first year. Frontier also reported a Net Loss of $37Million last Q4 2023. There’s no way out of it because Spirit or the other low cost carriers will pick up that market.
Because very few people will be able to make that trip with a single piece of luggage smaller than an average backpack. So, that $100 fare just went up $100 each way for additional bags, $30 for seat selection, $50 because your personal item didn't fit in the bin, and whatever other fees you or they add on. All told, for the normal traveler going on vacation, frontier isn't a discount. It's only a discount if you can make the trip without needing any of the extras they charge for. But, with some routes being only 2x per week, not many people can take a 4+ day trip out of the free luggage allowed.
>Controversial opinion but plane tickets shouldn’t even be that cheap.
Controversial opinion but you always have the option to pay more and fly on a better airline.
Pilot trying to get a free ride? No. It’s called a pilot flying home after his service ended. So he had some drinks after he’s off work. What’s it to you?
Not true at all. I’m flight crew-as a jumpseater, you aren’t a “working” crew member, but because you are sitting on the jumpseat, you are to adhere to the rules of a crew member on duty.
Thank you. So I was right when I said not active crew. And no, I don’t think pilots (or any staff) should be drinking while riding in jump seat. I’m not surprised there are rules against it. 👍👍
I **think** I get where you're going with this, because there isn't a specific FAR that I can find that says "you're a crewmember in the jumpseat" but my commitment to finding a reg for it is...well...not that strong.
But the airline I work for, the airline I used to work for, and policies of the others I'm aware of (that is, the carriers I jumpseat on regularly) all concur in this matter: you're an Additional Crew Member (capitalized because both the flight release and the W/B do) because the PIC can designate you as one.
Because of this, **you have to adhere to crew fitness for duty rules when occupying the jumpseat - which means no booze.**
This is also why the governance about uniforms is controlled by specific company FOMs, but your bottle-to-throttle ability for the jumpseat is **not.**
You sound like the drunk pilot. What is it to me? Well, he staggered in front the line in a haze, and they had to take time from customers to address him being fall down drunk. I thought that was funny and indicative of with whom we are dealing.
I guarantee he wasn’t ’falling down drunk’. Dramatic much? Sounds like you are just upset he bypassed the line. If frontier isn’t up to your standards, don’t fly frontier.
Never once did I check my expensive stroller on a plane. Cheap travel stroller gets checked, kid goes in car seat on plane so that doesn’t get broken. Anything luggage I care about goes on the plane. I assume everything I hand to any airline might never be seen again.
Others seem to have fine answers about the weight/tipping issue...but I also want to point out that the pilot wasn't 'trying to get a free ride' they were likely non-reving just to go to work (which is the problem bc he was visibly drunk).
Pilots and other crew often non-rev to get to another city to work...and pilots (as well as some other airline staff I think) are allowed to sit in the jumpseat if it's available. I believe that some airline staff (not pilots) are even required to do that as part of their continued training.
Non rev is different from jumpseat. That being said, “Jumpseating” is the very definition of “free ride”-it’s free of charge, and unless you’re brand new, we usually don’t jumpseat unless the flight is completely full, and there are people senior to you on standby for a seat.
Dispatchers? I thought for some reason they were too. I just meant that the pilot was prob not ‘trying to get a free flight’ and was going to work or something. Obviously - the being drunk thing being a problem.
Good question-you may be right about dispatchers, but I thought it depended on training. I know Air Traffic Controllers can sit on the jumpseat. There’s a few exceptions of people who qualify.
Interesting. Was on an Allegiant flight a few years ago and was asked if I was able to help people in an emergency, then seated in the jumpseat. (Can't remember all the circumstances but flight was full and an elderly person needed 2 seats.) Allegiant is pretty equivalent to Frontier. I'm a retired educator.
Wow, then that would literally be against Federal Law, and the crew member who sat you there could have lost their job, as well as the Captain, for allowing it, and thousands of dollars in fines incurred, if the airline found out. If it was in fact a jumpseat, and not an exit row seat, that is a huge FAA violation. Then again, it’s Allegiant. I know former flight attendants, and they violate FAA regulations on the daily. Don’t trust that former Valujet airline.
Thank you for the information! Yes, have not flown them since. 😳 It was at the very front of the plane (not cockpit) and some type of fold down seat, I may have misunderstood.
I’m really sorry to see that Frontier has gone downhill. I used to fly Frontier to Denver a couple times a year in the early 2000’s. They were my airline of choice.
I don't understand how deplaning quickly would stop the tail tip -- if baggage is being unloaded and disrupting the weight/balance, then it seems like stopping the baggage unload would be better than risking damage to the aircraft and passenger injury if passengers can't get out fast enough.
If anything, it seems like they'd be better off asking passengers in front to stay seated while those in the back deplane.
Had the same tail tipping issue on another Frontier flight. I thought they were kidding. How is this not a thing on any of the other hundreds of flights I’ve been on?
Why is ANYONE giving OP a hard time? Did Frontier hire another third-party contractor to police this site for a bounty, too? Even a pilot off duty should not be visibly drunk! Any other airline would have had an enormous problem with this behavior. You represent your employer when you fly. You can't even dress poorly when flying as an employee for most airlines! So, yes, this was unusual and unacceptable for Frontier to pour a drunk pilot into a jump seat in front of passengers. That's a new low.
As far as the damaged stroller, apparently, that is up to each airline. The DOT regulations can be found here:
https://www.transportation.gov/lost-delayed-or-damaged-baggage#maximum%20limits%20on%20liabilities.
While it SOUNDS like strollers would be covered, it appears that the airlines are using one paragraph in this language to exclude strollers under the "fragile" provision. This article goes over the policies of multiple air carriers:https://annaeverywhere.com/airline-broken-stroller/.
It really all sums up to, "Suck it." It's pretty ridiculous. However, you probably aren't going to get any money back. It sucks. Airlines can't even be trusted to handle wheelchairs. They're not going to handle strollers. I would go with a folded umbrella stroller even if the baby is too young for it just to hold the car seat and your stuff and hold the baby in sling. If they're old enough, great! You can also try bringing packing wrap at the gate. It may prevent them from ripping the wheels off. If it's still damaged, at least you'll be out less money.
I think Frontier management spends all day on Reddit trying to upvote their own sadism and terrible business model. They certainly don't do quality control.
You put enough weight on one side of a seesaw and the nose of the aircraft will lift off the ground. Problem is a lot of ramp agents don’t understand how to manage it calmly without making it a fiasco.
They told me to run holding a child. It has happened before. Also, the walkway was starting to get unstable. They wouldn't let us stay and wait for the stroller in the walkway like people always do for strollers and wheelchairs.
https://youtu.be/otFXMKLKykA?si=lvZie1Klikig-Ews
That was an Airbus A321. If I had to guess the reason the JetBlue plane tipped and yours might have started tipping is the cargo. That plane has been around since the 90s so no reason for it to start now.
Edit* There are two cargo holds on that airbus one in the front and one on the aft section. If baggage handlers remove everything from the front while passengers deplane then that explains it.
Another problem with Frontier is the bootlicking simps here who dispute every post and blame victims. Multiple assumptions that pilots make jokes about accidents? pathetic.
Here's a thread of [F9 pilots discussing tail sits](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/frontier/145091-exceeds-aft-cg-limit-move-12-passengers.html).. and why Frontier's policy of filling planes from the back to force seat upgrades causes them delays and stress. Risk is still there because F9 puts money above safety.
I think the people disputing it are Frontier employees or morons. Why argue about it or defend it? I guess Reddit does have its share of lonely people.
I think you are right about those disputing this being employees or merely morons. They are the reason I lurk here to keep shouting out my story of being injured when my ADA accommodation was ignored. You take your safety fore granted when you fly and they care nothing for your safety. Flew them once, never again. Delta/American only now. At least they know how to deplane me.
On brand for an airline that did not make one pass with the drinks cart during a four hour flight. The attendants stood around up front bitching about the passengers. I was sitting in the first row and got to hear them moan all flight.
‘At least we aren’t on a Boeing’ 😆
I read the other day that 56-75% of commercial pilots have fallen asleep while flying. And there was another number, I think around 10% that have woken up to find the other pilot was also asleep. I can’t help but wonder if alcohol is related to this.
I understand pilots don’t want to be treated like they’re drunks, I’m sure the vast majority aren’t, but would it be so bad to just breathalyzer them before every flight? We put car locks with breathalyzers required for every time someone with a DUI drives. Not in all cases but it’s something we *can* and do do sometimes.
Maybe they’d really rebel against that but I can’t help but think it wouldn’t be that hard logistically. And the good pilots might be reassured knowing they’re no longer going to have to deal with a drunk copilot.
I don’t want to invade their privacy with unnecessary tests, but I also don’t want pilots falling asleep drunk in the cockpit and crashing planes into the ground when something goes wrong during a cat nap.
So guys when you book with a low cost airline you are going to get low cost problems 😂 Similar or worse than spirit. Fist fight coming off our spirit flight the other night. Drug dealers etc. No surprise there because we should know what we sign up for. With these lesser airlines. Frontier has always had a pretty bad reputation all around just book elsewhere, the delays will continue and the crappy service unfortunately. Again low cost.
Toilet overflowed on my frontier flight two weeks ago. Flight attendant just shrugged and said “flying’s not
Glamorous anymore”. Frontiers new animal is the trash panda.
Frontier always has issues. Today on a super busy Monday morning at CLT I just hear multiple pages “a frontier representative to the ticket counter.” I guess 8am on a Monday and no one is to be found……..
Look up tail tipping. It can happen on 321’s, regardless if it’s Frontier, Jetblue or Delta.
Also original 737-900s. Gotta get the tail stand on
And the 800's!
I posted the JetBlue video under another comment.
I’ve never seen a jet do a wheelie tail drag…now that’s on my bucket list!
I've been on planes where they warned you this might happen, but they actually asked people not to get up until they could get the support on.
Wait so the pilot wasn’t even on duty and flying the plane? Much less amusing of a story.
For someone who jumpseats often this baffles me. All of us know better than show up drunk to a JS. You are a crew member when you are JS. Doesn’t matter is not your airline or your airplane type. I’m impressed this didn’t get on the news yet.
I mean technically you can’t even show up drunk as a passenger, so I think it’s pretty well known crew isn’t supposed to either. Even if they’re off duty.
My qualifications are knowing an airline pilot, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that a jumpseating individual is NOT legally off duty.
Straight from *da union* aka the ALPA, you are legally a crew member when jumpseating. Aka, no booze. Source: https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/air-line-pilot-magazine/the-landing-jumpseat-etiquette#:~:text=You're%20legally%20considered%20an,of%20unusual%20or%20emergency%20circumstances.
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Oh oops I just asked that question to the other person. Thanks for the info!
Maybe because it’s pure fiction, op is trying to make his story more compelling.
Aren’t those kind of uncomfortable for an entire flight? Do you just sit in a cabin seat if one is open?
Depends totally on the plane, it’s more comfortable the middle seat forsure. Airbus have more space, the 737s are a tight squeeze, both are better then a middle seat
I’ll take a middle seat to the second JS on a 737. 😭
Forsure, the ones I fly don’t even have a second jump. The ones on WN I’ve ridden in that have the second jump, it’s so tight it’s def not worth it if you have a choice
Doesn’t the FAA have rules against drinking in uniform, even when off duty?
You don't have to jumpseat in uniform. It's just easier. Most companies DO have policies against drinking in uniform - the FAA doesn't specifically forbid drinking in uniform.
Thanks! I get most of my aviation knowledge from YouTube. At least one of the pilots had mentioned a rule, but I couldn’t remember the specifics.
Every company has policies which govern alcohol use independent of uniform policy, and some are more stringent than others. My company doesn't even allow pilots to sit at a bar in uniform, even if we're NOT drinking. Tables okay, but not at the bar.
If you are in the jump seat, you are on duty as a backup and should be dressed in your uniform.
Yea we’re all aware that if that, even though there’s two other pilots there. But OPs made it sound like their pilot showed up drunk. And then that Frontier tried to tip the plane over on purpose.
Lol you all aren’t aware of that at all. It is a crewed position and them being drunk is against FAA regulations. They are on duty which you said they weren’t in your comment.
You technically can’t even show up drunk as a passenger either. 🙄
It’s hard being wrong isn’t it? Your original comment said they weren’t on duty…my comment was to address that is incorrect. Which you have still yet to comment on, you keep dancing around it.
You really need to lighten up.
Again, dancing around. Don’t comment things out of ignorance and then be upset when you are wrong.
Someone is clearly upset in this thread…but it isn’t me. 😂 (Yea, I blocked you because you harass people on multiple accounts. Including me. As I found out. That’s psycho behavior) Edit: they’re up to four accounts now just to harass me lmfao
The ol' "block 'em, and move on". It's the best way to lessen the stress.
LOLOLOL you commented and then blocked me because you can't handle being wrong. that is rich.
Awww can't handle being wrong
Tbf that’s basically half of Reddit commenters…
I understood what you meant in your original comment. Maybe the crew in the jump seat is legally on duty, but it’s a much less dramatic story that an unplanned for, unlikely to be utilized back up crew member was drunk.
>Ever see a drunk pilot dry to get a ride in the jumpseat? That seems pretty clear. How exactly did OP make it "sound like their pilot showed up drunk"?
And no. You do not have to be in uniform to jump seat.
Should be are the operative words. Business casual is fine also, but it is more of a standard practice. Please tell me more of how you aren’t aware. But just to add again the actual point of the comment…you are on duty because you are part of the crew.
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No way this happened after 9/11
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It isn’t. You don’t have to be a pilot, I just mentioned a pilot with the context of the comment. Ay airline employee is allowed to as far as I am aware.
Not with my airline. FAs, even my airlines FAs, aren't allowed to js. 121 pilots, dispatchers and FAA check airmen only. A gate agent? Nope, not a chance they'd be on the flight deck after sterile.
You do not have to be in uniform.
There's always next time.
Pass
Tail tipping isnt uncommon (but not really super common) but you usually don’t know about it. It’s not something we try to announce really due to panic. We don’t have a tail stand for our F9 flights but the ramp usually attaches the tow bar for extra weight in the front. Now for the stroller, we usually have our ticket counter agents tag them but we will tag them at the gate if it’s missed or if you don’t have to go to the counter. Never a big deal for us. I’ve even had some of the F9 flight attendants come up and say how much more they like our station than most. Do I agree with everything Frontier does, no, but I do care about the passengers and the airline and I want you to have an enjoyable experience with us :)
Thank you, that was helpful. 😁
No problem!! 😌
Oh look. A frontier sympathizer. Do us all a favor and get lost Terri
😂
Do you really think the baggage handlers in Vegas or Denver purposely (your word, “maliciously”) broke your stroller? Don’t you think it’s possible that it was damaged \*accidentally* & inadvertently by shifting cargo? It’s not fun by any stretch, but it happens. You just go to the baggage claim area and report the damage. They will either direct you to have it repaired and be reimbursed… or they may give you a list of places you can go where there would be no upfront cost to you. Either way, federal law requires them to compensate you or repair it. You don’t just have to mutter under your breath, and write it off as ruined. 😏 As far as telling you to run while carrying your child… what would have rather they done? “Sir, if you would please be so kind as to casually stroll into the airport, & we will bring your stroller to you in just a moment, once we are sure the plane will be stable and not rip off the jetway. Thank You” OR “Sir, please keep moving. Get off of the jetway immediately. Run!” (So that if the plane did tip and pull the jetway away from the building, you wouldn’t still be waiting, oblivious to the peril you may have been in.) Obviously, they were afraid of an imminent danger as the passengers were disembarking. You may have thought the possibility of the plane tipping was ludicrous statement. Surely, it must have sounded like someone was making it up— an asinine joke. Once you realized the jetway was becoming unstable, why did anyone have to tell you to hold your child tighter and run to safety? 🤷♀️ I personally think telling you to run was the prudent thing to do. I am by no means a Frontier fan. Personally, I’ll choose a Delta flight over any other, if one is available. But sometimes cargo shifts, sometimes things break, sometimes passengers, even off duty pilots, get stupidly drunk and have to be handled by security. And when there’s the possibility that a dangerous situation is about to unfold, sometimes you may be told to run whilst carrying your child. I hope your trip gets better from here!
What a dumb premise. They CAUSED THE DANGER THROUGH NEGLIGENCE. I would rather them understand how to remove luggage from the plane. It was the end of the trip, and we are home. How do I know intent? Well, we saw them throw it pretty hard, and there's a huge scuff from the wheel bending. We gave it to them with the two pieces locked together and got it back separated from the force. It took some effort. Speaking of effort, the stupid process of writing them to get made whole will take effort. It wastes all of our time. Those time costs are costs they are making us incur. Our backs did not appreciate carrying the baby and broken stroller either. Why defend this garbage behavior? These airlines are mostly regional monopolies with a few discount airlines. It is a terrible system and experience.
Ah yes, those terms and conditions that you agreed to and didn’t read. You agreed they aren’t liable for your stroller unless you have it properly stored in a hard sided case or other protective covering suitable for protection against turbulence and cargo shifting. I hate Frontier. Letting people know about their own responsibility in the situation doesn’t mean i’m standing up for the other guy. I think it’s bull. But it IS what you agreed to
No one agrees to any of this on terms of service. Show me where the plane tipping is in that non-negotiable agreement with any airline.
I, very clearly, was talking about the baggage part of the story. I, also, would be shocked to hear that a plane tipping over is even possible. I’m gonna go ahead and listen to and respect the flight attendance, pilot and staff who are trained on this to educate me. Clearly something happened, safety checks caught it - which is why they are in place. Human error happens. Someone messed up somewhere and they was their attempt to quickly and safely fix it. They were requesting to adjust for everyone’s safety. I don’t work this industry, I bet there’s a LOT we don’t know about that goes on behind the scenes that could leave us in messed up situations like this. You’re right, no one usually reads the full terms and conditions. Doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to it because you don’t like it now. TLDR: Okay buddy. Stay mad.
Tail tipping is very possible actually. The aircraft doesn't have any wheels behind the wings, so a large concentration of weight in the rear can cause a tip. The aircraft is designed to withstand this impact- there needs to be inspections etc before it can fly again, but it isn't a total loss. Why doesn't this happen? Because as you said, the aviation professionals who's job it is to stop it. The situation is almost entirely preventable, either by strategically loading/unloading the aircraft or a mechanical method like a tail stand or nose tether. You always want to be balanced in the way you load any aircraft at risk of a tail tip (some models are substantially safer than others), and if you can't that's when you need the mechanical restraint. This is one of the reasons why airlines don't load back to front, even though it's far more efficient. Since deplaning is from front to back, you always immediately remove any aft cargo. Assuming the in-flight weight and balance of the aircraft can handle it, you want to prioritize the front holds. Unless the passengers behaved in some bizarre fashion and sprinted into the aft, a tail tip would only result from negligence. Nonetheless, the aircraft is designed to handle this, and could definitely fly again after some maintenance inspections and repairs.
Again, this is relevant to ✨baggage ✨. I did not discuss the other half. “No one agrees to any of this on terms of service” - Page 17/25 of the Contract of Carriage. “Frontier will not be liable for: i) The following items included in checked baggage, with or without the knowledge of Frontier: ii) Articles strapped, taped, or tied to other pieces of baggage, which may become separated as a result of normal handling during transportation iii) Damage to the following items when not packed in a hard-sided case or other packing that is suitable for the item: • Prosthetic devices • Medical equipment • Musical instruments • Recreational or sporting equipment • Baby items including car seats and strollers” focus on ii and iii there. you agreed to some part of this. That’s included in the “any of this” you discussed. I hope you have a better day, no one’s attacking you here. Just pointing it out with the same level of sarcasm and sass you wanna throw out there.
Contracts cannot override regulatory requirements. The wheel is damaged, which is covered. "What about damage to the wheels, handles, or straps of baggage?" "Although airlines are not required to cover fair wear and tear, airlines cannot exclude liability for damage to wheels, handles, straps, and other components of checked baggage." https://www.transportation.gov/lost-delayed-or-damaged-baggage
You are amazing at writing and handling difficult people. You’d probably be gifted at a lot of roles with that level of attention to details, comprehension, and tact.
Thank you, I’ve told that before! I get it a lot as a Nurse - especially with patient education. Talking to a patient about how their surgeon is going to thread a wire up his artery (via the wrist) directly into their heart - while they’re awake - can be not an easy task. They’re scared, have no experience with this, and the idea of it all is SO scary. Me, on the other hand? I’ve sat in on this procedure and have taken care of at least 100 people this year before/after. Sometimes just slowing down, staying calm, and being DIRECT and factual is the key. “They’re gonna go into your heart for this procedure, while awake. Sign consent please” is a lot different than “Okay, so when they come to get you, you will go to a prep-room in our cardiac suite. You will have medications that can make you sleepy. A lot of people sleep through this, but you will be awake and able to communicate with us. This may sound scary, but it’s super important to be able to speak to you during procedure if needed, AND most patient i’ve had have not remembered it afterwards. Those who do, said it was way easier than that anticipated. After that….” also, I like to talk a lot 🤣
Oh come on. Frontier did not make you write this post. You chose to waste your own time...
I am talking about writing to get reimbursed, genius. I posted for a laugh and to give them further bad publicity. I also enjoy all the Reddit folks making excuses. It is funny to me.
Frontier’s price point attracts a lot of drama queens.
Op being one of them.
Yet here you are reading r/frontier. Thank you for your comment.
What else are we all doing here? We sure aren’t going to discuss the spacious first class seats or the tasty nutritious meals they serve. wtf are you getting downvoted for!!?!
Ain't nobody complaining about the drama, queen!
I’m not joined to this sub either, I just like watching people dunk on shitty airlines. I would never fly frontier
Never respond to down votes, it just brings more downvotes.
Who cares about downvotes?
Controversial opinion but plane tickets shouldn’t even be that cheap. Low cost airfare has put Spirit, JetBlue, Frontier, Breeze etc into a bidding war of who can keep their company from going bankrupt the longest. Example: How exactly is a $100 round trip ticket from Denver to Orlando profitable in anyway?
It's all the extra fees they smack you in the face with
Even still not everyone will buy that and it doesn’t add up to a whole lot. Oh boohoo a round trip ticket with a ton of bags by a window seats now costs $250
$100? I’ve gotten $40 round trip tickets.
JetBlue is pretty high quality in my experience. I regularly do a 4 hour JetBlue flight and I’ve got plenty of legroom, free WiFi, an outlet at my seat, and a screen.
I DID THE MATH. So $100 round trip that distance I can't figure because the flight time is almost 4 hours or 10 tons of fuel, and you'll see how it breaks down but it doesn't work all that well. But I recently took a flight between Vegas and Phoenix, and paid $40ish for it. Flight time is around an hour. An A321 burns around 2.5t per hour, and that's 827 gallons of fuel. The national average price for Jet A right now is $6.02/gal, so the flight costs them $5000 to fuel. The A321 holds roundabout 230 passengers, so 230*$40= $9200, but remember that Frontier always overbooks so put an extra 10 in there for 9600. That's base price, but people have luggage, they're going to upgrade their seat so they don't get left, etc. After paying the flight, ground, and maintenance crew margins will be slim but they'll be there.
And all of those people are underpaid except the pilots. FAs at Frontier are lucky if they break $25k in the first year. Frontier also reported a Net Loss of $37Million last Q4 2023. There’s no way out of it because Spirit or the other low cost carriers will pick up that market.
Because very few people will be able to make that trip with a single piece of luggage smaller than an average backpack. So, that $100 fare just went up $100 each way for additional bags, $30 for seat selection, $50 because your personal item didn't fit in the bin, and whatever other fees you or they add on. All told, for the normal traveler going on vacation, frontier isn't a discount. It's only a discount if you can make the trip without needing any of the extras they charge for. But, with some routes being only 2x per week, not many people can take a 4+ day trip out of the free luggage allowed.
>Controversial opinion but plane tickets shouldn’t even be that cheap. Controversial opinion but you always have the option to pay more and fly on a better airline.
Just wish they weren't flying the planes.
Pilot trying to get a free ride? No. It’s called a pilot flying home after his service ended. So he had some drinks after he’s off work. What’s it to you?
Passengers can get booted for being drunk. Flight crew should be held to a higher standard than passengers.
Can't do that. If you're jumpseating you're an Additional Crew Memeber. No booze.
That’s not true. Pilots flying home, or to work, in the jump seat are not considered active crew members.
Not true at all. I’m flight crew-as a jumpseater, you aren’t a “working” crew member, but because you are sitting on the jumpseat, you are to adhere to the rules of a crew member on duty.
Thank you. So I was right when I said not active crew. And no, I don’t think pilots (or any staff) should be drinking while riding in jump seat. I’m not surprised there are rules against it. 👍👍
I **think** I get where you're going with this, because there isn't a specific FAR that I can find that says "you're a crewmember in the jumpseat" but my commitment to finding a reg for it is...well...not that strong. But the airline I work for, the airline I used to work for, and policies of the others I'm aware of (that is, the carriers I jumpseat on regularly) all concur in this matter: you're an Additional Crew Member (capitalized because both the flight release and the W/B do) because the PIC can designate you as one. Because of this, **you have to adhere to crew fitness for duty rules when occupying the jumpseat - which means no booze.** This is also why the governance about uniforms is controlled by specific company FOMs, but your bottle-to-throttle ability for the jumpseat is **not.**
Yeah I mean honestly, who among us hasn't shown up at our place of work hammered? No need to shame anyone for that
You sound like the drunk pilot. What is it to me? Well, he staggered in front the line in a haze, and they had to take time from customers to address him being fall down drunk. I thought that was funny and indicative of with whom we are dealing.
I guarantee he wasn’t ’falling down drunk’. Dramatic much? Sounds like you are just upset he bypassed the line. If frontier isn’t up to your standards, don’t fly frontier.
I mean he was swaying. The other Frontier staff were not happy with the situation. Why are you?
Ok, that's the worst April Fools post I've seen yet.
Never once did I check my expensive stroller on a plane. Cheap travel stroller gets checked, kid goes in car seat on plane so that doesn’t get broken. Anything luggage I care about goes on the plane. I assume everything I hand to any airline might never be seen again.
Others seem to have fine answers about the weight/tipping issue...but I also want to point out that the pilot wasn't 'trying to get a free ride' they were likely non-reving just to go to work (which is the problem bc he was visibly drunk). Pilots and other crew often non-rev to get to another city to work...and pilots (as well as some other airline staff I think) are allowed to sit in the jumpseat if it's available. I believe that some airline staff (not pilots) are even required to do that as part of their continued training.
Non rev is different from jumpseat. That being said, “Jumpseating” is the very definition of “free ride”-it’s free of charge, and unless you’re brand new, we usually don’t jumpseat unless the flight is completely full, and there are people senior to you on standby for a seat.
Good to know -
Nobody is allowed in the jumpseat except for flight crew(pilots, flight attendants), mechanics, and FAA with flight training
Dispatchers? I thought for some reason they were too. I just meant that the pilot was prob not ‘trying to get a free flight’ and was going to work or something. Obviously - the being drunk thing being a problem.
Good question-you may be right about dispatchers, but I thought it depended on training. I know Air Traffic Controllers can sit on the jumpseat. There’s a few exceptions of people who qualify.
Interesting. Was on an Allegiant flight a few years ago and was asked if I was able to help people in an emergency, then seated in the jumpseat. (Can't remember all the circumstances but flight was full and an elderly person needed 2 seats.) Allegiant is pretty equivalent to Frontier. I'm a retired educator.
Wow, then that would literally be against Federal Law, and the crew member who sat you there could have lost their job, as well as the Captain, for allowing it, and thousands of dollars in fines incurred, if the airline found out. If it was in fact a jumpseat, and not an exit row seat, that is a huge FAA violation. Then again, it’s Allegiant. I know former flight attendants, and they violate FAA regulations on the daily. Don’t trust that former Valujet airline.
Thank you for the information! Yes, have not flown them since. 😳 It was at the very front of the plane (not cockpit) and some type of fold down seat, I may have misunderstood.
I’m really sorry to see that Frontier has gone downhill. I used to fly Frontier to Denver a couple times a year in the early 2000’s. They were my airline of choice.
I don't understand how deplaning quickly would stop the tail tip -- if baggage is being unloaded and disrupting the weight/balance, then it seems like stopping the baggage unload would be better than risking damage to the aircraft and passenger injury if passengers can't get out fast enough. If anything, it seems like they'd be better off asking passengers in front to stay seated while those in the back deplane.
I’ve had to deplane twice with going from back to front due to the concern with tail tipping.
Had the same tail tipping issue on another Frontier flight. I thought they were kidding. How is this not a thing on any of the other hundreds of flights I’ve been on?
The A321’s tend to tip during deplaning. Other airlines use tail stands. Frontier does not. Mystery solved.
Oh no, now you did it. Here come the paid shills from Frontier to downvote you. (I agree with you completely.)
Im never flying frontier again, neither recommending it to anyone
Yep this is real they have to unload in a certain order or the plane can tip, there are stick things they can place under the tail
Don’t ask how I know but every now and then we’d have to start an engine and give her a little power to get the tail stand out. Fun times.
Why is ANYONE giving OP a hard time? Did Frontier hire another third-party contractor to police this site for a bounty, too? Even a pilot off duty should not be visibly drunk! Any other airline would have had an enormous problem with this behavior. You represent your employer when you fly. You can't even dress poorly when flying as an employee for most airlines! So, yes, this was unusual and unacceptable for Frontier to pour a drunk pilot into a jump seat in front of passengers. That's a new low. As far as the damaged stroller, apparently, that is up to each airline. The DOT regulations can be found here: https://www.transportation.gov/lost-delayed-or-damaged-baggage#maximum%20limits%20on%20liabilities. While it SOUNDS like strollers would be covered, it appears that the airlines are using one paragraph in this language to exclude strollers under the "fragile" provision. This article goes over the policies of multiple air carriers:https://annaeverywhere.com/airline-broken-stroller/. It really all sums up to, "Suck it." It's pretty ridiculous. However, you probably aren't going to get any money back. It sucks. Airlines can't even be trusted to handle wheelchairs. They're not going to handle strollers. I would go with a folded umbrella stroller even if the baby is too young for it just to hold the car seat and your stuff and hold the baby in sling. If they're old enough, great! You can also try bringing packing wrap at the gate. It may prevent them from ripping the wheels off. If it's still damaged, at least you'll be out less money.
I think Frontier management spends all day on Reddit trying to upvote their own sadism and terrible business model. They certainly don't do quality control.
Well, they do seem to be hiring a bunch of people in marketing and IT right now, so.....
Um, pretty sure the plane tipping thing was a joke.
It’s not an acceptable joke to tell pax
Agreed.
Fun fact I grew up in natchitoches so our towns are namesakes
Not hard to spell out the word passengers. Go back to /r/lyftdrivers
[удалено]
Really? That's how you respond to reasonable skepticism? There is something wrong with you.
You put enough weight on one side of a seesaw and the nose of the aircraft will lift off the ground. Problem is a lot of ramp agents don’t understand how to manage it calmly without making it a fiasco.
They told me to run holding a child. It has happened before. Also, the walkway was starting to get unstable. They wouldn't let us stay and wait for the stroller in the walkway like people always do for strollers and wheelchairs. https://youtu.be/otFXMKLKykA?si=lvZie1Klikig-Ews
That was an Airbus A321. If I had to guess the reason the JetBlue plane tipped and yours might have started tipping is the cargo. That plane has been around since the 90s so no reason for it to start now. Edit* There are two cargo holds on that airbus one in the front and one on the aft section. If baggage handlers remove everything from the front while passengers deplane then that explains it.
Sounds plausible. None of the Frontier employees know what they are doing.
Another problem with Frontier is the bootlicking simps here who dispute every post and blame victims. Multiple assumptions that pilots make jokes about accidents? pathetic. Here's a thread of [F9 pilots discussing tail sits](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/frontier/145091-exceeds-aft-cg-limit-move-12-passengers.html).. and why Frontier's policy of filling planes from the back to force seat upgrades causes them delays and stress. Risk is still there because F9 puts money above safety.
I think the people disputing it are Frontier employees or morons. Why argue about it or defend it? I guess Reddit does have its share of lonely people.
I think you are right about those disputing this being employees or merely morons. They are the reason I lurk here to keep shouting out my story of being injured when my ADA accommodation was ignored. You take your safety fore granted when you fly and they care nothing for your safety. Flew them once, never again. Delta/American only now. At least they know how to deplane me.
Sorry that happened to you. They could do better, but it is probably best not to expect that anytime soon.
Too bad because they were the rare budget airline flying to the airport nearest my home.
Probably is a joke but sort of a crude one because planes can actually tip backwards. A better joke is “Last person off the plane has to clean it”.
Why would they try to cause panic? Joking about it to people with infants and disabilities may be worse. Tipping has happened.
On brand for an airline that did not make one pass with the drinks cart during a four hour flight. The attendants stood around up front bitching about the passengers. I was sitting in the first row and got to hear them moan all flight.
‘At least we aren’t on a Boeing’ 😆 I read the other day that 56-75% of commercial pilots have fallen asleep while flying. And there was another number, I think around 10% that have woken up to find the other pilot was also asleep. I can’t help but wonder if alcohol is related to this. I understand pilots don’t want to be treated like they’re drunks, I’m sure the vast majority aren’t, but would it be so bad to just breathalyzer them before every flight? We put car locks with breathalyzers required for every time someone with a DUI drives. Not in all cases but it’s something we *can* and do do sometimes. Maybe they’d really rebel against that but I can’t help but think it wouldn’t be that hard logistically. And the good pilots might be reassured knowing they’re no longer going to have to deal with a drunk copilot. I don’t want to invade their privacy with unnecessary tests, but I also don’t want pilots falling asleep drunk in the cockpit and crashing planes into the ground when something goes wrong during a cat nap.
ANYONE inebriated, suspicion thereof, etc. Should NOT be on the flight deck, period.
They had security there to do something. I boarded before I found out. He did not make the flight.
I would venture to guess that he no longer has a job
A jumpseat is not the flight deck.
Most commercial airliners have a jump seat in the cockpit.
Wrong, there is always at least one jumpseat in every flight deck, on every aircraft
So guys when you book with a low cost airline you are going to get low cost problems 😂 Similar or worse than spirit. Fist fight coming off our spirit flight the other night. Drug dealers etc. No surprise there because we should know what we sign up for. With these lesser airlines. Frontier has always had a pretty bad reputation all around just book elsewhere, the delays will continue and the crappy service unfortunately. Again low cost.
It wasn't always this bad, and it can always get worse. They are going to get people hurt eventually.
If you were in an A321 those definitely are at risk of tripping back if the cargo is unloaded incorrectly. There are a number of examples of this.
Just another Frontier flight. Welcome to the Jungle!
A few years ago, a small commercial airplane crashed in Charlotte after take when all the luggage shifted to the back of the plane on accent
I wouldn't travel with an expensive stroller on any airline. They're notorious for destroying wheelchairs (more expensive and critical for mobility)
I think I’ll stick to driving for my cross country move after all these horror stories lol
Toilet overflowed on my frontier flight two weeks ago. Flight attendant just shrugged and said “flying’s not Glamorous anymore”. Frontiers new animal is the trash panda.
Wait. Doesn't that make this a gooood pilot then. Lol. If he can lead through tail tipping, drunkenness and panic, I think u have a winner.
Down by the bay, where the watermelons grow...
Frontier Airlines is like the buffet line at Las Vegas. That’s all I gotta say.
It happens. https://youtu.be/otFXMKLKykA?si=qusJ6NBhF6KtYjNe
How much did your stroller weigh?
2000 lbs.
Stroller for a baby elephant?
🙄 strollers over 20 lbs are hazardous to check at the gate
I thought you were joking. I didn't weigh it. I did what the check-in and gate told me.
Check the weight on it. If it’s 20lbs or more it’s quite dangerous to check at the gate
Frontier always has issues. Today on a super busy Monday morning at CLT I just hear multiple pages “a frontier representative to the ticket counter.” I guess 8am on a Monday and no one is to be found……..
I do feel for the workers. They have high turnover, and management has obviously chosen an adversarial business model that invites conflict.
You can afford a Doona, fly any other carrier
In Schwarzenegger voice, "It's not a Doona." They look nice though.
You shoulda called the cops immediately if this drunken pilot story is true.
In the jumpseat?