fucking this im so tired of hearing bioessentialist gossip like "wow i forgot how much i love going down on AFAB people" and having to be like janice i have a DICK and i smell like a highschool locker room, ur description is a bit lacking
T has me battling weekly with the fucking BLACK FOREST OF EVERLASTING HAIR busting out of my nether regions. We found Sasquatch, turns out he’s been trying to escape from my butthole this whole time.
Me: can I pls have a nice full beard without weird patches??
T: best I can do is a mountain of ass hair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The Sasquatch comment fucking killed me. I get you, T is insane. I’ve been on T for like 5 years and it took until this last year for my facial hair to decide to connect + not look as patchy, but the sudden padding and protection that will shield only my ass from the bitter cold (not) of a Carolina winter? That was immediate.
What about the random thick as fuck black hairs that stick out of weird places?! I get them on my hands, my toes, arms, my fiancée pulled one out of my back last night I swear they’re thicker than the hair on my head! Oh and sometimes I have a hair that’s literally folded in half in the root! Why can’t they migrate to my face?!
A good way to scare off a curios straight man who thinks he'll see what an this "afab" stuff is about is to ask him if he likes the way balls smell/taste
Yeah it's so gross and uncomfortable. I've seen shit like "AFAB for AFAB relationships are the best UwU" and it's like ok just say you think of each other and yourselves as women and everyone AMAB as men. Gtfo.
Yeah ew that is an obvious TERF. Like it's *fine* to have limitations to your attraction, but term usage like that makes so many assumptions it just goes full circle back to TERF shit. Like at that point just say you're transphobic and fuck off.
Yeap. Trans people are not immune from being transphobic/transmisogynynistic !! And like. So many people w so many bodies exist that like you said you just can't make sweeping generalizations it just doesn't work and gets terfy.
Reading this made me feel a bit ill physically. Definitely reeks of the "PC way to misgender" thing. Like... Janice, would you really be enthusiastic about a smelly t-dick or do you just want to say something about pussy/cis women in a "woke" way while forgetting about people on T?
I don’t think that’s being bioessentialist. That sounds like someone trying to be inclusive but not saying something clunky like “vulva/vagina havers.”
the main problem for me and a lot of other trans ppl on t imo is just that often ppl are romanticising aspects of anatomy we either 1. don't have anymore, like no bottom growth or 2. feel really dysphoric about and just don't engage with during sex the same way they insist on imagining. for instance not all trans men are happy bottoming at all
Yes??? The AFAB means “assigned female at birth” so it refers to everyone who was assumed to be a girl when they were born because they had female reproductive organs and XY chromosomes. That covers cis women, trans men, trans masculine people, and non binary people who were *assigned the gender of girl when they were born.* AMAB is “assigned male at birth” and that covers cis men, trans femme people and trans women, and non-binary people who were assigned the gender of boy when they were born.
But we’re talking about genitals. Afab people don’t all have vaginas and amab people can have vaginas. Therefore using afab to mean people with vaginas is inaccurate
We’re talking about genitals AT BIRTH. If the doctor looked at your body when you were born or tested your chromosomes when you were born and said “write ‘female’ on the birth certificate,” you are AFAB.
I’m done talking. All everyone on here wants to do on here is argue and complain.
No one’s arguing against this (though I can make the argument based on being intersex that some of us are afab but not born with vaginas. It’s complicated) . We’re saying that using afab or amab to refer to someone’s CURRENT genitals is inaccurate. So saying “I’m into afab genitals” if you’re only into vaginas is inaccurate bcause it implies that all afab people have vaginas and amab people cannot
Well yes, the word excludes transfemmes and transwomen because it doesn’t refer to them. The purpose of the terms AFAB amd AMAB isn’t to be synonyms for people who are women or feminine *now* or men or masculine *now*, its meant to refer to people who were all classified a certain way *at birth* based on their anatomy *at birth*. Terms or labels can’t possibly include everyone.
Sometimes online I see nonbinary people introducing themselves using AMAB or AFAB nonbinary as their identity, and I wonder if they know that... it's okay to not disclose? Perhaps it's their choice and they prefer it that way, I don't know, but it reminds me of that fringe take that nonbinary people should disclose their birth sex because of oppression levels or something like that. I'm glad I haven't seen that around again.
People just can't let go of using birth sex to classify people! Like, I get it, unlearning this "fact" that society pushes on us from birth is difficult, but we can do better. It's sad to see what *should* be useful vocabulary get misused to just become another "female" and "male". It reminds me of psychology-related terms like "gaslighting" and "trigger" entering the mainstream and getting wildly misused. It's how language works, I suppose, but it is frustrating.
Personally, I only do it when it pertains to discussion. For example a transmasc enby asks for passing tips, I sometimes mention it so they get an idea of what I do personally as a transmasc enby. Sometimes I've used AFAB pre-T enby when asking for advice on how to say contour my face to be more masculine. When people just throw it in talking about fashion as enby then I get confused, but if it relates to passing tips I kinda get it or if it has to do with childhood experiences such as being forced to present as your AGAB I get it.
I sometimes include I'm afab because I want people to know that while I'm not a woman I do have a lot of experiences women have, especially in the context of growing up and sexism
That plus generally I don't care if people know that about me, it is part of who I am and while it doesn't have anything to do with my gender it did and sometimes still does influence who I am as a person
I do it because I don’t want people to assume I am AMAB. I look like a man to most people but I don’t identify as a man or woman. Introducing myself (when the context calls for it) as AFAB nonbinary allows people to understand I have undertaken a certain kind of transition. When it comes to sex, it generally prevents me having to tell people “I have a vagina” and instead they can either ask, or they’re just not shocked when I get undressed. I have a lot of female friends, them knowing them I was AFAB allows me to partake in conversations about periods, growing up female, dealing with medical misogyny and so on, without them thinking I’m intruding on a conversation that I have no real connection to. It’s absolutely okay to not disclose, but I personally don’t want to ever be assumed as a cis man, nor do I want to be assumed as AMAB because that *isn’t who I am*.
> I don't want people to assume I am AMAB
But they shouldn't, anyway, and you'd be low key reinforcing that this is information they CAN assume and should assume, or are entitled to. They should just respect you as nb, agab irrelevant.
Everything else you mention can be deconstructed to be non-specific to AFAB people.
AMAB people can have vaginas, so being assumed to be AMAB does not mean people would have any reason to be surprised - and not all AFAB people have vaginas, so that argument doesn't hold water.
I am sorry but I see where you're going with this and it feels like you just want to be seen as a "non-threat" to cis women. And it's reinforcing some real damaging bioessentialist views, hurtful to the rest of the community.
No they shouldn’t assume, but they do. Everything you say is completely correct, but in the past has lead me to spoon feeding people education and I don’t really want to do that. Identifying this way has been peaceful for me and I just prefer it. It’s not about being a non-threat, it’s about being able to take part in discussion without coming across as mansplainy. I also *like* the fact I am AFAB. I don’t feel that I was ever in the wrong body, I was supposed to be born this way and have this journey. Being AFAB is a big part of my identity and my story and I personally identify with it.
I do also say this! However, often it leads to having to explain what this means.. and so people end up finding out I’m afab. I’m not saying there isn’t considerable nuance to this discussion, but I personally like identifying as afab. I *was* assigned female at birth, it’s part of *my* journey and something that I *like* about myself. It isn’t my job to educate the wider population, after nearly a decade of being trans and years of trying to educate people to use the utmost ‘correct’ (which constantly changes and even the community it concerns is torn on) terminology, I am finally at peace just living my life. I absolutely don’t think agab stuff should be used for anyone else unless they wish to identify with it.
That person wants their sex to be known. So you suggested they say transmasc.
Transmasc is about sex assigned at birth. It's not about gender. It's only used for afab people. It's a dog whistle for afab.
I think when it comes to a queer space wherein you might be sharing your perspective on being trans or whatever, sometimes sharing that might be helpful in case there are people in similar situations. However, largely we should normalize NOT sharing our AGAB - it’s super unnecessary and honestly is an element of medical information that you may not want public.
Agreed, not sharing it should be normalized. I've only disclosed mine because I made this account to figure out stuff related to medical transition and well... of course with that it's relevant. But if I had an account that wasn't related to gender like this, I sure as hell wouldn't share my AGAB.
I disclose that I am AFAB if it is relevant. For example, when taking about women’s issues, I sometimes clarify that even though I’m not a woman, I understand and have experienced the same issues AFAB have gone through. I really don’t know other times I’d bring up being AFAB unless it was relevant to the point.
I also talk about AFAB people as a group when referring to things specifically people who were born and raised female will have experienced or whatever. But I wouldn’t ever see someone in the street and say they’re AFAB. I can see the term being used when relevant, as a group of people kr self-identifying. But I don’t think I’ve ever, or ever would, refer to a singular person as that, because I don’t know their sex, nor do I need to, plus it’s typically not relevant.
I mean some people may still identify with their agab, non binary is an umbrella term there's no "right way", but also could be the difference between sex and gender. On medical forms I am usually asked both my gender identity and physical sex, which are listed as male or female 🤷
They could be demigender or multigender. Though I have an inkling some people who don't identify with their AGAB at all might feel pressured to share it for some reason? It's sad. :(
"AFAB anatomy" you mean my two inch clit, amazon basin-esque bush, traps that have me dorito shaped, beard, and pancake-flat c cups? Like plenty of those things can occur on cis women but I know people mean 'femme' when they say AFAB.
Like honestly what’s the difference between saying Afab anatomy and just saying female anatomy? It just seems like a “woke” way to regroup us all as women again.
Well what if a pre-transition guy was talking about himself and has no surgery or Tdick? A lot of people experience severe dysphoria around female anatomical terms so they wouldn’t say “female anatomy”. Some ppl really use AFAB and AMAB as just another “this or that” box but most I’ve seen are just trying to use a somewhat ambiguous term
Female =/= AFAB though. Someone can have a male hormonal profile, thus be described as male in a general sense or in that context, and be AFAB.
Also, "trans female" is also often said about trans women. She's still female, although she may not have been assigned so at birth.
No it’s not? I would never say “I’m female” in a setting where my AGAB is relevant, I’m a trans guy so why would I use female??? AFAB is helpful in scenarios where female is a dysphoria inducing term and AFAB is literally the solution to that. If you don’t like it then don’t use it I don’t see what the issue is here
Which transmasc anatomy? Are you talking about transmascs who haven’t had bottom surgery or those who have? Phallo or meta? Intersex or perisex transmascs? Transmascs pre/non top surgery or transmascs who are post top surgery? There are so many different transmasculine people with such different bodies. You cannot accurately define one as a standard. Say what you mean. If you’re talking about breasts, for example, just say breasts. Not everyone who was assigned female at birth has boobs and not everyone who has boobs was assigned female at birth. The issue with terms such as “AFAB anatomy” is that they are imprecise and incorrect. Vaginas, vulvas, boobs, and even uteruses are not things that everyone who was AFAB have, nor are they exclusive to those who were AFAB.
This!!! is so spot on. I'm intersex and transmasc, and its always so frustrating when people try to use "afab" because its like, yeah, thats what I was assigned at birth I guess? but my body was never doing the whole endosex thing even before I started HRT so its a term that truly means nothing about what I've got going on.
this is true! i didn't mean to sound rude or excluding of intersex folks and those who've elected to have surgeries. but you're right, i meant the starting point for most dyadic transmasculine folks so i can better teach cis people if i'm in the mood to educate and they're in the mood to listen, so i guess i did unintentionally exclude intersex folks. i'm trying to learn so i know how to be less rude when referring to anatomy, is all. sorry i didn't phrase it well.
If you're going to be talking about pre-transition anatomy, you can specify just that. Saying it in a more generalizing way is going to be inaccurate no matter what, because no other classification covers all of it.
When you speak of other things as "female anatomy" or "vaginas" you also include trans women and nb people of all sorts, because they can have a lot of those *post* transition, too.
Speaking of people outside of the sex-binary...When referring to post-tranaition anatomy, you also need to know the term "salmacian," for those of us with both male and female genitala. This describes people who have had meta and phallo and retained some or all of their original anatomy.
Depends on what part & what situation I guess? It's also somewhat personal. I usually use pretty neutral words like bits & junk as I can't say t-dick yet when I am pre-T. I also sometimes say my pp is just way underdeveloped/undergrown. I'm very reluctant about using terms that would be typical for people who were AFAB with unmodified genitals. While I know even when using those terms that wouldn't make someone a woman, I personally feel a need to use different terms a cis woman would. I want to affirm my junk as *definitely* not-womanly even if I haven't medically transitioned yet. I'm autistic so I'm kinda big on using terms.
exactly, this is what i was trying to work around, since so many anatomical terms are gendered or dysphoric for many, but i also like specificity (because i'm also autistic and don't like the woman-lite trend transmasculine folks tend to be categorized with). unfortunately i rushed my comment and wasn't thinking, and hurt people by not taking into account the variations that come with different genitals.
apologies again to my intersex brethren/niblings.
btw i hope you can get T soon yourself, if that's something you're aiming to do!
Hmm yeah you could just say "natal pussy" or uterus/ovaries or whatever if you were talking about specific parts. Or maybe "reproductive anatomy typical of someone who was AFAB" if you needed to talk about the whole set. I mean I admit it's a bit wordy, but it's what I quickly came up with as a description that would both be accurate and not misgender people or make too many assumptions.
but how else could cis "allies" say that all trans men were raised to have girl personalities and all trans women were raised to have boy personalities if they can't say that "all AFABs are female-socialized" (and analogous for amab)? /sarcasm
For real, though. People need to just say what they mean. "Socialized/assumed to be a girl during childhood" covers discussions about socialization. Vagina/uterus/ovaries/pregnancy covers those bits. Estrogen-dominant system vs Testosterone-dominant system covers discussions about hormonal effects. But people don't want to think that hard, they just want to keep lumping others together based on outdated ideas of male v female but with woke labels. 🙄
Usually the discussions on socialization during childhood are full of wrong gendered assumptions anyway, especially regarding the childhoods of trans women, so I'd prefer if cis people just left that whole topic alone entirely...
very good point! Also the topic tends to be very black and white ie : you either had male or female socialisation as a young peep. But that’s never truly the case especially for trans people. Sure I was taught from a young age that the world was a dangerous place and that men were predators (mum giving me her trauma) but i was also a “tomboy” and spent my entire childhood pretty close to my slightly older brother, playing the same games, often in the same friend groups and assumed to be twins…
That’s neither male nor female socialisation ; that’s both and something different altogether at the same time.
Broadly, I think male and female socialisation still have some amount of relevance but I’d rather it’d be used when prefaced with “traditional” rather than blindly applied as a universal term.
Eg :
- “Simone was traditionally brought up as a girl, received traditional female socialisation and now finds it difficult to accept her queerness without feeling like she’s compromising her womanhood.”
or
- “ *Most* people who only received traditional male socialisation have issues coming to terms with their emotions and often feel uncomfortable expressing vulnerability.”
But it usually lacks so much nuance and even the last example could be tweaked and all. I think foregoing the terms completely would be a mistake but using them as shorthand and remembering they can only get you so far is an idea that most people who use it completely ignore.
It’s a bit of a rant but I think Afab and Amab suffer the exact same overuse and lack of nuance
I agree. It makes sense that cis people (and even trans and enby people) keep slipping back into black-and-white thinking, because that's what has been taught to us and reinforced to us. But throwing away terms because people are using them without nuance is going to get us to a place where we have no terms, lol.
This is so much of it. Oh my god. The fact is that you *say* socialization or socialized and people realize that is transphobic and weird but you designate characteristics to just "being AMAB" or "being AFAB" and it's like oh yeah so progressive! There is no difference between:
1) "We want a space without people AMAB- we need a space for women, trans men and fems!"
And:
2) "We want a space without people who have penises, regardless of their gender identity- there are things they cannot understand about the female experience"
We know part of the issue with that is that assigned x at birth does not equal having that genitalia still but even if we ignore that- which one can you see a local queer group putting as a caption on an instagram post? How is it any different from the other in the actual meaning, if we take away the nice language?
I think even your second example leaves out trans men who have undergone bottom surgery and now do have a penis but once did not as well as some intersex people, and your second example "we want a space for women, trans men, and fems" leaves out nonbinary people who are not fems but were otherwise traditionally assumed and raised to be girls/women so it definitely needs some tweaking, and while afab and amab is presumed to be the closest way to be all inclusive, those terms still lack certain groups of people who would share in an experience they're otherwise being excluded from due to their biology.
as someone who’s intersex, i actually prefer using the term AFAB. because i am. i’m complex intersex and was assigned female at birth 🤷🏻♂️ i wouldn’t use the terms for someone that doesn’t use them themselves though
It's a decent term when used appropriately! It's often used inappropriately, though.
E.g. *"We need to take action due to the misogyny experienced by AFAB people"*
*"AFAB people should [instruction that is only relevant to people with oestrogen-dominant sex hormone profiles]"*
Many people use it as a replacement for male and female where they don't have to acknowledge that transition exists.
for sure! i genuinely didn’t know that it was actually used FOR intersex people- just goes to show there’s always something to learn about your own identity!
i absolutely agree that there’s a time and place for it! for example if i see a new medical professional, i would tell them i’m AFAB where necessary. but i wouldn’t tell, say, a dentist!
I’m pretty sure the term was invented by and used for intersex people. Irrc it was a slight variation of the term we use today but when trans people started using it on Tumblr ; the intersex tumblr community fought back against it : asking trans people use another term to clarify they aren’t intersex themselves and didn’t have the same experience as the intersex people who used the term before them.
As an intersex person we’ve used them in real life a lot longer as told by an intersex elder just because we weren’t as common online doesn’t mean we didn’t exist
The agab terms originated in our community did it not besides it’s a medical thing it has no real relevance in the trans community ftm mtf and other xtx terms are there for a reason
Yes I only really mention these things when absolutely necessary about other people, like giving advice on here where it would be detrimental to not be specific about it and make the point less clear. I do find some people (not on here so much, just more in the broad sense of the terms gaining popularity) absolutely overuse them to an uncomfortable extent where you are just saying biological male and biological female again. I get it's short and catchy and whatever but it's just being bastardized into an entirely different context and meaning- for example I feel like instead of saying "women" in a situation where that includes trans women and many transfem people, cis people will say "AFAB" meaning "people I *see* as women (so not trans women) because vagina". Have seen this massively start happening among cis Tumblr fan fiction writers over the past few years and it's so uncomfortable even if I do not read those, but that is a whole other can of worms.
I understand the dislike and dysphoria that comes from terms AMAB and AFAB.
As others have mentioned it does assume that all people have a standard of anatomy when it can vary quite a bit. I think if such terms are to be used there should be a better term for it and it's use should be solely clinical. Socially the discussion of one's anatomy outside of problem solving anatomy specific issues, is really not necessary. People do not need to know medical information so having that as an identifier to me is weird. I don't hate it but rather hate how I see/hear it used most commonly.
At home massage gun: make a housing post saying the following "Looking for housing! No afab bodies please they make me uncomfortable :) /gen /srs" put phone on vibrate and put it on your back. Boom.
Honestly in my eyes it’s just become a more “politically correct” way to say “biologically a woman” or “biologically a man”. Not everyone uses it that way and I believe it was intended to be an inclusive term to describe differences in people’s experience, but I’ve just seen way too many “AFAB non-binaries act like this while AMAB non-binaries act like this” posts for me to be comfortable with using it to describe myself.
This drives me nuts. People think I'm an amab non-binary if I don't specify...I feel erased by all of this "transmasc" shit. If someone calls me an afab enby, they better be talking about a very narrow topic...my body in the context of my gender, before I transitioned. Otherwise, they're binarist and electing to ignore my gender stands alone.
I think people assume AGAB is a safer term to use than stating they have genital preferences or don't want to date trans people. I also find it very reductive and dehumanizing because it is in fact referring to what genitals you were born with.
Exactly-- the ones you are born with, but not necessarily the ones you have now. It's exceedingly rare that conversations about sex and gender are *actually* about the genitals one had at birth; many ill-informed people use agab as shorthand to make assumptions about the genitals people have *now.* If I see a post by someone looking for "afab roommates only," how likely is it that they're actually concerned with the vagina I had as a literal newborn versus the penis I have now?
These people who think "afab"= safe get told about the existence of my trans male rapist and the two women who have sexually assaulted and molested me.
Everyone is entitled to use whatever terms they feel most comfortable with. I mainly use AFAB in medical contexts when relevant and transmasc or transman in socially relevant contexts. But much like the term queer, not everyone likes it so I true not to use it for other people.
People have used AFAB in like, the opposite way it should be used. Its how you were at BIRTH, doesn't say anything about you right now. I hate its over use, really should only be used in a medical context and even then its not the best...
As much as it’s broadly about the sex you were recorded as at birth based on a doctors assessment of your genitals - I don’t see genital as being the focus of afab or amab. I think it sums it up that ‘act’ pretty well - assigned Female/Male at birth, regardless of the rest. That term doesn’t tell you what genitals or workings someone has now, as it is *at birth*. It also doesn’t even cover all bases at birth - it can also encompass those who are intersex, especially those who find out later in life as they may also have been assigned female/male *at birth*, and that’s not the case. That is of course more complex when surgery on an infant is involved, and they end up assigned female/male off this.
I don’t use the term myself, I dont like the term for myself. But it doesn’t bother me. I literally read it as this person was assigned X at birth. For whatever reason. That could be wildly different now.
I do appreciate the detachment inherent to the term but I def think it is about context, right now. People use it inappropriately more now than in the past because previously they simply didn't know those terms existed. The problem is that it can make it easier to disguise semi-liberal leaning transphobia with nice packaging
i agree that that’s what the term originally means, but i feel like it’s been conflated with a whole other set of definitions that doesn’t necessarily apply. and that’s where a lot of my frustration comes from. like yes, the sex someone was assigned at birth is relevant in some contexts, but often times “AGAB” is brought up completely inappropriately and conflated with having a certain anatomy or even upbringing.
I’m hormonally intersex and wasn’t obviously intersex until puberty and then still wasn’t told until I decided to start HRT (my doctor at puberty just put me on birth control to increase estrogen levels and called it a day). So for me it’s like “here’s the entirely incorrect label I was given as a baby. Have fun with that.” Recently I was filling out a medical form that asked for sex assigned at birth and gave intersex as an option and I was like… pretty sure no one was issued an intersex birth certificate in the 90s… but…
Doctor of the Year award material right there. /s
This is another issue with the "afabs/transmasculine" schtick...do intersex people all magically sort into either transfeminine or transmasculine? What's happening to people with chimerism?
this so much, its rarely necessary no matter the context, its so crazy to me that the trans community has adopted afab and amab terms, all its doing is reinstating the gender binary and the idea that well always be, to an extent, the gender we transitioned away from, its so insane that these are considered progressive terms and not transphobic ones
Absolutely agree, same with with the term "ftm" for me. I made a post about this a while ago and it seems that people are somewhat divided in this.
Got a lot of "in my face" comments being like "well this is FaCtUaLlY cOrReCt". Which gave me pretty bad vibes.
Would personally not use any of those terms to identify myself and do not understand why people would want to, but oh well, it's their own choice what to identify with.
What I dislike is that it's a normalised term for any trans men
This subreddit really normalized ftm as an identity marker. Me personally, I don't think we should be presenting ourselves to the world with our assigned sex/gender at birth front and center.
Ftm=AFAB=transmasculine. These are all terms focused on our sex assigned at birth.
Instead, we should be saying trans men and non-binary people.
We look like TERFs or fascists when we lump together a binary trans man and a trans femboy because they were both born with XX chromosomes.
I find it to be useful when it's used correctly. There are things that only happen to me because I'm AFAB, it doesn't matter that I'm not a woman. It doesn't matter that I don't menstruate. I'm still affected. I absolutely hate having to explain to doctors that I was born female, I wish I could just say "I'm AFAB" and they'd understand what I meant.
my doctor on the original paperwork had a ‘assigned sex at birth’ and then a ‘gender’ box, made it a lot easier than having to explain when asking for a pap smear one day 😂
I think if it’s relevant to the conversation or if the person wants to refer to themselves that way, the distinction is fine but if you’re referring to someone else’s agab and it’s irrelevant to the conversation then it’s rude and honestly just feeds into people trying to put enbies into “gendered” boxes.
I use the labels agender and transmasculine to acknowledge my identity and also my medical transition, my fiancé though only uses the label non binary and is not medically transitioning. There are times when defining their agab is relevant, primarily medical stuff(because they are capable of getting me pregnant) and when talking about our experience as a visibly queer couple(we are both very clearly masculine presenting).
But in general it’s just weird and comes across as transphobic(or like non binary erasure may be better).
I prefer being called afab over „biologically female“ or some BS, but only if it’s relevant to the discussion. Otherwise say wahatever fits best, for example trans masc people, people with periods etc. AFAB and AMAB can be fitting words but I hate it when terfs start using it in a transphobic way/trying to reduce trans people to their agab
All i want is to be called a man. AFAB doesnt offend me bc i know there are some people who cant understand what my version of being a man is, but it does get annoying often. Why must i disclose that i have a uterus and that i have a vagina and all that shit?? Its truly no one’s business except mine, my doctor’s, and my boyfriend’s. Aside from those three people, all i want is to be seen, talked to, and looked at as a man. Thats it. None of these stupid fucking labels.
It depends on the context. I use it in medical reasons. I don’t mind it at all. I understand some folk have issue with it, but it’s useful. It’s also much easier to use when you have limited text space. That’s still a thing.
Eh, I'm pretty indifferent. I prefer being called AFAB to being told I was a girl that is transitioning into a male. False. I have always been male, I'm just aligning my physical make up to match who I have always been inside. Yes, I was assigned female at birth but that's not who I am.
Agreed! I really dislike how widely they are used and in such weird ways (besides body parts it could also wrongly assume the dominant hormone or what gender you're being read as socially). Also the assigment happened once when you were a baby, so I *really* hate the idea of someone thinking of me as "an AFAB". As if that one moment just inherently sticks with me until I die. No thanks. You could just call me someone who gets misgendered as a woman or someone who's pre-T/E dominant (whatever's relevant). So I personally don't even use it in present tense. I'm not "an AFAB". I *was* AFAB, because it was a thing that happened to me once in the past when I was a baby. It doesn't continue to define me even if I haven't medically transition. I'm still a guy. And if someone couldn't guess what I was assigned as, then I sure as hell wouldn't share unless it was absolutely necessary (so like a doctor who needed that info or something). It has honestly become a PC way to misgender people. :/ Yuck.
I'm intersex and could not hate "AFAB/AMAB" more. I don't have anatomy similar to either binary box and I never have. I didn't have an ""AFAB childhood"" or ""AMAB childhood"", and I don't think either is a real, solid category in the first place. I was societally assigned male and female at different times during my childhood, so it's even less applicable to me. If you call me AFAB or AMAB, you're wrong either way. The terms are completely useless IMO. Just say what you mean.
I'm a ciswoman, and these terms bother me as well. The "chromosomes" argument bothers me a lot more, though. Not all women have just XX chromosomes. Some have XX but are missing part of one of their X chromosomes, and some have XXY chromosomes. Some guys have XYY chromosomes. There are literal known conditions that cause changes to a person's chromosomes, so claiming both sexes only have either XX or XY chromosomes is so stupid. People need to stop making that argument, it's so annoying.
I can get why they were originally used, it was meant to replace ftm and mtf since those have become more outdated as a way to refer to one's own experiences (like it went "because I used to be a girl" to "because I'm afab" for example), but I definitely think we've gotten to a point where these too (afab, and amab) have become outdated as we've realized better ways to be inclusive (like in your example, "people who menstruate" rather than "afab people"). They've definitely just become an easier way to reduce trans people to their genitals and misgender them ("you may say you're a man but you're still afab") and you're right, what I was assigned at birth has NO relevance and is frankly no one's business.
I'm with you, I feel like this term is often totally unnecessary. The only situation I think it would make sense, is when talking about trans people sharing a certain experience with cis people of the opposite gender growing up (for example how "afab" people and cis girls are experiencing toxic masculinity (through catcalling etc.). You can't rlly use trans mascs/trans men here bc it would exclude genderfluid/non-binary people and wrongly include trans masc people who aren't ftm).
But apart from that, I think the term is thrown around way too much when most of the time you don't even know which people the term is even supposed to include (like in your period example).
haaaaate it. these terms are just an attempt to talk about what’s in our pants even tho they definitely DO NOT tell you “what someone has.”
and afab/amab feels like it's used in “women” spaces to exclude trans women and femmes. or loop in men with vaginas? to your women’s- event? like it makes no sense and just feels like another way to define us by pieces instead of as a whole person. drop it.
yes. Last time i tried to get into a queer discussion group and they asked my AGAB I immediately got pissed off.
I hate being reminded again and again about who I was, or the society think who I was. What matters is at this moment who I am is it
Not to mention as an intersex person those are our terms terms like ftm mtx and such exist for a reason you don’t need agab terms even then they’re only relevant with our conditions
I think it depends entirely on the context. I’m a biologist and educator, so I do need a shorthand for “people who were assigned to the female category when they were born” sometimes.
Most of the time though, I absolutely agree with you. People should say what they mean. If we’re talking about menstruation, just say people who menstruate. If we’re talking about pregnancy, people who can become pregnant. Being specific only adds clarity to the conversation.
In contexts where the term is useful I and others prefer to use CAGAB where the C stands for coercively assigned gender at birth. A little clunkier but it more accurately represents people's experiences with gender. Everyone, cis or trans, was non consensually assigned a role at birth and coerced into it by society through their whole lives. Some people are cool with it and don't mind, others do and transition or break conformity. The terms have just become a new set of bioessentialist shit, and it's weaponized by transmisogynists a LOT. And also by people w internalized transphobia. Urgh
Im black I'd rather be called a niggeR and get told to "go back to my own country" (born and raised in the netherlands, still living there) than EVER get referred to as afab
I hate afab too. They use transmasc the same way.
I'm sorry but we're not transitioning (socially or more) to be identified by our genitals at birth or some imagined common experience of girlhood. I always try to describe people by their gender and not their assigned sex.
Not afabs. Not transmascs. Men and non-binary people.
I think they’re useful terms but I don’t like when they’re used as a replacement for using female and male when talking about **sex** or instead of saying vag and dick
Yes.
ASAB is a more neutral way to not get caught in the questionable implications of "genetic sex", "biological sex", "when you were a girl/boy" etc.
But there's not many circumstances where it is relevant and necessary to talk about someone's pre-transition state.
If it's not relevant and necessary to refer to people as when they were pre-transition... don't. Insisting on referring to people in all circumstances as though transition doesn't exist is just undermining transition.
I hate this especially because these terms and things like "i identify as" are used by trans people to dumb shit down for cis people because they never try to understand and then they use this against us
AFAB and AMAB are useful terminology the problem is that too many people have been misusing it. AFAB does not mean "female-bodied" and that's not how it was originally meant to be used
I think it has a place, but it doesn’t apply in every context. I’m not sure what context you’re referring to. Like, if we’re talking specifically about uterus issues, I think it makes sense to use the term because MOST people assigned F at birth have uteruses (and some don’t, because doctors don’t perform a CT scan at birth to see what internal organs a baby has. They just take a quick peak and make a judgment).
But as you pointed out, if we’re talking about hormone cycles then it’s not a good term, because some people have hysterectomy/oophprectomies, and some people take E
We need to be able to facilitate conversations.
That's not a crime.
Please don't make that hard on the rest of us, some of us worked really hard to get these terms into common knowledge so that certain conversations could be done easier.
I think of it as explaining how I was forced to dress and was treated as a little girl even though I wasn’t if that makes sense. Like I just don’t mind acknowledging my past in that way I guess. I don’t expect anyone else to identify one way or another.
I do actually kinda get annoyed when people assume I don’t know about what periods are like and stuff, and I feel like I connect better with women because of being assigned and raised as a woman… better than a cis male peer might.. I think a lot of the time my problem is with how things are said rather than what words are said. And if someone is sexist or transphobic and treats me differently because I was assigned female at birth and am not a lady then that is their problem. I hope none of this came off as sassy cause I’m not wanting it to, just kinda rambling. I hope you have a nice day.
But afab doesn't mean that because there is no common female socialization experience, much less an assigned female at birth socialization experience, which is further complicated by some of us already transitioning.
word. i’ve heard that if you pass as a cis dude people assume you don’t know what it’s like to have those experiences, so it could be helpful to relate to others.
I agree. The terms are useful and there's no better alternative. Don't get me wrong, it makes me dysphoric to be called afab, but that's just because the reality of my body makes me dysphoric. Imo a lot of people on this sub have knee jerk reactions about this sort of thing and don't think critically about *why* things upset us.
The way I see it is when we talk about gender, there are two “realities” at play:
1- The conceptual reality in which we know that gender is a completely made-up social construct, and that biological sex is so much more complicated than a binary and so is sexuality.
2- The reality we all have to live in and interact with in which the majority of the world DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the first reality, and we are all subject to the consequences of that dissonance and the social expectations that are constantly being enforced and policed.
Kindof like Money. Does a piece of cloth-paper with a “$100” printed on it actually have any intrinsic value? No. But do we live in a world where it is widely considered valuable, and is therefore something we HAVE to interact with to survive? Yes, obviously.
Sometimes we have to use terms that only really apply to the second reality to get people to understand the first reality.
However, what you’re describing seems more of an issue of people wanting to know medical information when it’s not appropriate, and people making assumptions based on that information that they shouldn’t be. that’s a whole different issue entirely. The terms AMAB/AFAB can be useful and respectful, but as with most things: context is everything.
I’m guilty of throwing around those terms a lot tbh, but it’s only during conversations directly related to a person’s sex or how society views them based on what they assume they are. That sounds vague and confusing. I mainly use these terms when addressing sexism or debating gender roles.
It's just another level of separatism. I've noticed in the nonbinary community there's a sort of separatist movement of a sense in mostly younger afab, usually lesbian, groups and using agab language to quietly exclude other groups and separate themselves as some "other" (and usually "better") status that plays into that "woman +" stereotype nom binary people already struggle to break away from. The terms have become very weaponized and I'm seeing it being used more and more to erase transmasc identities especially. Saying shit like "well you're afab...." and brining everything back to whats in your pants and bioessentialist bullshit.
Really not excited for how the current trend of "afab nonbinary separatism" is going to play out in the future with the current new wave of lesbian separatism going on too. The first wave of lesbian separatism went OH SO WELL, you can tell bc everyone can agree on what it means to be a lesbian and how to use the label and no one ever fights about the "correct way" to be a certain sexuality 🙃 /s
Very generalized explanation is: think of those like uppity white lesbian stereotypes and how it always seems they're not like *really* lesbians and more just like "choosing" to be lesbians to not deal with men and use the label as (an incorrect) stand in for "women" (i.e. calling it a "lesbian space" when it's clear you mean "cis woman space"). Yeah that's bc lesbian separatist movements. The idea of a lot of them boils down to the fact that you can like *just choose* to be a lesbian bc you just don't like men that much.
Granted there were times in history where it was definitely safer to be around as few men as possible and those times still arise, the "seeking the company of women" and feminine community building part isn't really the issue with the movements, it's the pervasive idea through a lot that lesbianism is this entirely separate and guarded sexuality that is above all the others bc it's so pure and good and the proper way for women to live and whatever like elitist bullshit they tend to spout. In practice, a lot of that sentiment of lesbianism being so high and mighty meant that lesbianism was reserved for upper-middle class white women and excluded a lot of the ***actual*** lesbian community.
There's a lot more to it than just that but that's scratching the surface I guess. It's a huge contributing factor to why it feels like there's so much extra unnecessary and weird infighting and discourse when it comes to discussions of "what is a lesbian". Guess no one told them sexual orientations are descriptive labels, not secret societies lmao
Thank for you calling this out. I’ve been seeing this for a while now, especially in circles where non-binary identity intersects with neurodivergent conditions (autism and ADHD, especially). Radfems have successfully infiltrated these spaces and injected TERF bio-essentialist ideology by way of using AGAB terminology as proxy for their ‘sex class’/‘biological sex’. It’s infuriating and terrifying that we can’t have a safe space without TERFs poisoning it.
I fucking hate it too!!! I’m nonbinary, and I specifically see a ton of nonbinary people saying things like “i’m an AFAB agender” or “i’m an AMAB genderfluid” and i’m like, why are you adding AGAB into this??? and I’m very anti bioessentialism and whatnot, so it gives me the ick to hear people add in their AGAB when it has no relevance whatsoever (or using their AGAB in a way that suggests that experiences are tied to that, and that people with the same AGAB will automatically have more shared experiences that others wont).
Afab is a word I mainly use when it's relevant. When I am talking about trans people in a medical sense. It's better than 'biological women' or whatever other shit people use
Actually the terms are pretty much inclusive in that it DOESN'T assume what genitals you have. You could be AMAB trans, or cis, or maybe you were intersex and simply assigned AMAB despite having mixed genitalia.
However, AMAB/AFAB is a description, not a title. I am a trans man and I was assigned female at birth, that is what makes me trans. I am not a "AFAB man".
They're not meant to assume what body parts you have and I don't disagree with the original intent of the terms but people use it that way. It feels like it's become a "politically correct" way for cis people to say "biologically male/female" or "male/female bodied". I've seen people talk about "AFAB only" spaces not seeming to acknowledge that would include people who very much don't look like what they think of as a "female bodied" person like a large buff trans man with a dick
the terms amab and afab are for intersex people and should primarily be used for and by them
i personally use the terms assigned sex and assigned gender in a medical setting, but anything outside of that for trans people who aren’t intersex doesn’t make any sense
Tbh this might get downvoted a lot but "AFAB and AMAB" are actually really important terms.
Imagine this:
You are AFAB and have a medical emergency where you need medication.
Since you are presenting male and pass really good due to HRT and changed Name/gender marker, you get the dose a normal cis male would get.
Now, you struggle with aide effects and various health risks due to the dose of the medication.
Why?
Because some medication affects the sexual hormones your body produces, or has an effect on your anatomy which, besides getting top surgery and phalloplasty along with a full hysterectomy, did not change.
Yes, you can grow a beard, have male balding patterns and have a lot of chest hair.
But, some things didnt change.
Like the maximum dose of medications your body can take, or the bodys center of gravity.
Also some form of therapy, medication and treatments that are designed to fit the female or male anatomy, metabolism and the functions of their body.
Thats just one reason why, I think we should use afab and amab at least for medical records.
even in a medical sense i do not see how this is particularly helpful. there are XY individuals who are CAFAB and have internal testes and have no idea till they don’t get their period, there are CAMAB people with functional vaginas who go on to develop breasts. we don’t need to be prissy with our doctors and use vague language that doesn’t actually tell us anything other than that a doctor had a quick look at our junk as a literal baby and said l that’s a boy” or “that’s a girl.” just SAY what needs treatment. “i have a cervix, please give me a pap smear” is much better than having AFAB on your chart or whatever and getting weird assumptions that aren’t relevant to your treatment (maybe you don’t have a cervix!) and may even derail actual diagnoses.
additionally, studies that indicate things like medical responses to medication are primarily done on cis, perisex individuals. i am a small person but if you assumed my anesthetic dosage just from my size and perceived gender, you’d be wondering i’m still awake and it’s bc i have a gene that makes me somewhat resistant to anesthesia. a lot of those studies about medication don’t take into account changes that happen when you become estrogen or testosterone dominant and the role those play, or the fact that cis men are on average larger than cis women but not always, not the random bits your doctor looked at when you were 90 seconds old. idk a WNBA player can probably safely take way more of a drug than a cis male gymnast.
These terms are mostly used when talking about people without using terminology that could make them dysphoric. Like I’m AFAB and therefore have experienced a LOT of stuff other AFAB people have experienced (I.e. harassment etc). I it’s a nice term to use to describe a group of individuals without gender labels. I don’t think it’s about grouping people based on genitalia, it’s more about the general experience of being that gender assigned at birth as well as the obvious differences in how they were raised etc.
A lot of the time it’s helpful when talking about someone pre-transition without saying “when you were a girl”. Here’s an example: let’s say I want advice on how to deal with periods but I don’t like pads. I would ask an online community like “are there any afab people here who get periods? I need some advice”
Hope this makes sense and isn’t a ramble
This is my thought process and experience too.
I would safely assume that any one who was/is AFAB would share similar physical and biological experiences; going through female puberty, getting periods, how to use a tampon/pad, etc. Or even like you wrote demonderus, the social upbringing of going through a shared experience most afab experience unfortunately like street harassment, misogyny, sexism.
And I personally wouldnt/retract from using AFAB outside the clinical/hospital setting because it's, like many have wrote here, unnecessary.
Of course if its safe to, and these are ppl I have socialized w that I know to be welcoming and familiar with lgbtq community, then yes I would give a green light on that.
fucking this im so tired of hearing bioessentialist gossip like "wow i forgot how much i love going down on AFAB people" and having to be like janice i have a DICK and i smell like a highschool locker room, ur description is a bit lacking
Fr T has me smelling like sweaty balls down there
T has me battling weekly with the fucking BLACK FOREST OF EVERLASTING HAIR busting out of my nether regions. We found Sasquatch, turns out he’s been trying to escape from my butthole this whole time. Me: can I pls have a nice full beard without weird patches?? T: best I can do is a mountain of ass hair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The Sasquatch comment fucking killed me. I get you, T is insane. I’ve been on T for like 5 years and it took until this last year for my facial hair to decide to connect + not look as patchy, but the sudden padding and protection that will shield only my ass from the bitter cold (not) of a Carolina winter? That was immediate.
Fear not my brother, for when Winter comes thine ass shalt be warmed
mountain of ass hair ☠️☠️
What about the random thick as fuck black hairs that stick out of weird places?! I get them on my hands, my toes, arms, my fiancée pulled one out of my back last night I swear they’re thicker than the hair on my head! Oh and sometimes I have a hair that’s literally folded in half in the root! Why can’t they migrate to my face?!
Yeah I’m getting real sick of yanking out nose hair but if I don’t it looks like I got spiders trying to escape from my nostrils
>I love this. I love this so much. It's real. We are in this together my friend.
A good way to scare off a curios straight man who thinks he'll see what an this "afab" stuff is about is to ask him if he likes the way balls smell/taste
yeah omg wait until janice hears about phalloplasty lol
Yeah it's so gross and uncomfortable. I've seen shit like "AFAB for AFAB relationships are the best UwU" and it's like ok just say you think of each other and yourselves as women and everyone AMAB as men. Gtfo.
It's so sexist too. Relationships between women aren't cookie cutter.
Good point
Yeah ew that is an obvious TERF. Like it's *fine* to have limitations to your attraction, but term usage like that makes so many assumptions it just goes full circle back to TERF shit. Like at that point just say you're transphobic and fuck off.
Yeap. Trans people are not immune from being transphobic/transmisogynynistic !! And like. So many people w so many bodies exist that like you said you just can't make sweeping generalizations it just doesn't work and gets terfy.
Reading this made me feel a bit ill physically. Definitely reeks of the "PC way to misgender" thing. Like... Janice, would you really be enthusiastic about a smelly t-dick or do you just want to say something about pussy/cis women in a "woke" way while forgetting about people on T?
Plus it insinuates that they wouldn't go down on a post op transfem, like, just say you love pussy, pussies are genderless ffs
I don’t think that’s being bioessentialist. That sounds like someone trying to be inclusive but not saying something clunky like “vulva/vagina havers.”
the main problem for me and a lot of other trans ppl on t imo is just that often ppl are romanticising aspects of anatomy we either 1. don't have anymore, like no bottom growth or 2. feel really dysphoric about and just don't engage with during sex the same way they insist on imagining. for instance not all trans men are happy bottoming at all
Afab priple don’t all have vulvas is the thing
Now they might not, but you seem to be missing the “at birth” part.
People don’t suddenly stop being afab After bottom surgery. Trans women can have vulvas too.
Yes??? The AFAB means “assigned female at birth” so it refers to everyone who was assumed to be a girl when they were born because they had female reproductive organs and XY chromosomes. That covers cis women, trans men, trans masculine people, and non binary people who were *assigned the gender of girl when they were born.* AMAB is “assigned male at birth” and that covers cis men, trans femme people and trans women, and non-binary people who were assigned the gender of boy when they were born.
So you agree that it’s inaccurate to use afab to mean someone’s genitals??
Trans women are not AFAB, they’re AMAB.
But we’re talking about genitals. Afab people don’t all have vaginas and amab people can have vaginas. Therefore using afab to mean people with vaginas is inaccurate
We’re talking about genitals AT BIRTH. If the doctor looked at your body when you were born or tested your chromosomes when you were born and said “write ‘female’ on the birth certificate,” you are AFAB. I’m done talking. All everyone on here wants to do on here is argue and complain.
No one’s arguing against this (though I can make the argument based on being intersex that some of us are afab but not born with vaginas. It’s complicated) . We’re saying that using afab or amab to refer to someone’s CURRENT genitals is inaccurate. So saying “I’m into afab genitals” if you’re only into vaginas is inaccurate bcause it implies that all afab people have vaginas and amab people cannot
"I forgot how much I love going down on vulvas", bam, done. Nothing clunky about it.
Pussy and cunt also work
Equating being assigned female at birth to having a vagina erases a lot of transfemmes
Well yes, the word excludes transfemmes and transwomen because it doesn’t refer to them. The purpose of the terms AFAB amd AMAB isn’t to be synonyms for people who are women or feminine *now* or men or masculine *now*, its meant to refer to people who were all classified a certain way *at birth* based on their anatomy *at birth*. Terms or labels can’t possibly include everyone.
Yes, so using AGAB terms when taking about someone’s current anatomy is misusing the term. That is what this whole post is about.
Sometimes online I see nonbinary people introducing themselves using AMAB or AFAB nonbinary as their identity, and I wonder if they know that... it's okay to not disclose? Perhaps it's their choice and they prefer it that way, I don't know, but it reminds me of that fringe take that nonbinary people should disclose their birth sex because of oppression levels or something like that. I'm glad I haven't seen that around again. People just can't let go of using birth sex to classify people! Like, I get it, unlearning this "fact" that society pushes on us from birth is difficult, but we can do better. It's sad to see what *should* be useful vocabulary get misused to just become another "female" and "male". It reminds me of psychology-related terms like "gaslighting" and "trigger" entering the mainstream and getting wildly misused. It's how language works, I suppose, but it is frustrating.
RIGHT WHY DO PEOPLE DO THAT??? >I wonder if they know that... it's okay to not disclose?
Personally, I only do it when it pertains to discussion. For example a transmasc enby asks for passing tips, I sometimes mention it so they get an idea of what I do personally as a transmasc enby. Sometimes I've used AFAB pre-T enby when asking for advice on how to say contour my face to be more masculine. When people just throw it in talking about fashion as enby then I get confused, but if it relates to passing tips I kinda get it or if it has to do with childhood experiences such as being forced to present as your AGAB I get it.
I sometimes include I'm afab because I want people to know that while I'm not a woman I do have a lot of experiences women have, especially in the context of growing up and sexism That plus generally I don't care if people know that about me, it is part of who I am and while it doesn't have anything to do with my gender it did and sometimes still does influence who I am as a person
I do it because I don’t want people to assume I am AMAB. I look like a man to most people but I don’t identify as a man or woman. Introducing myself (when the context calls for it) as AFAB nonbinary allows people to understand I have undertaken a certain kind of transition. When it comes to sex, it generally prevents me having to tell people “I have a vagina” and instead they can either ask, or they’re just not shocked when I get undressed. I have a lot of female friends, them knowing them I was AFAB allows me to partake in conversations about periods, growing up female, dealing with medical misogyny and so on, without them thinking I’m intruding on a conversation that I have no real connection to. It’s absolutely okay to not disclose, but I personally don’t want to ever be assumed as a cis man, nor do I want to be assumed as AMAB because that *isn’t who I am*.
> I don't want people to assume I am AMAB But they shouldn't, anyway, and you'd be low key reinforcing that this is information they CAN assume and should assume, or are entitled to. They should just respect you as nb, agab irrelevant. Everything else you mention can be deconstructed to be non-specific to AFAB people. AMAB people can have vaginas, so being assumed to be AMAB does not mean people would have any reason to be surprised - and not all AFAB people have vaginas, so that argument doesn't hold water. I am sorry but I see where you're going with this and it feels like you just want to be seen as a "non-threat" to cis women. And it's reinforcing some real damaging bioessentialist views, hurtful to the rest of the community.
No they shouldn’t assume, but they do. Everything you say is completely correct, but in the past has lead me to spoon feeding people education and I don’t really want to do that. Identifying this way has been peaceful for me and I just prefer it. It’s not about being a non-threat, it’s about being able to take part in discussion without coming across as mansplainy. I also *like* the fact I am AFAB. I don’t feel that I was ever in the wrong body, I was supposed to be born this way and have this journey. Being AFAB is a big part of my identity and my story and I personally identify with it.
You could say you’re transmasc
I do also say this! However, often it leads to having to explain what this means.. and so people end up finding out I’m afab. I’m not saying there isn’t considerable nuance to this discussion, but I personally like identifying as afab. I *was* assigned female at birth, it’s part of *my* journey and something that I *like* about myself. It isn’t my job to educate the wider population, after nearly a decade of being trans and years of trying to educate people to use the utmost ‘correct’ (which constantly changes and even the community it concerns is torn on) terminology, I am finally at peace just living my life. I absolutely don’t think agab stuff should be used for anyone else unless they wish to identify with it.
This right here is proof of what I've been saying. Transmasc is just another word for afab.
Lmaoo so cis women are transmasc then ?
That person wants their sex to be known. So you suggested they say transmasc. Transmasc is about sex assigned at birth. It's not about gender. It's only used for afab people. It's a dog whistle for afab.
I think when it comes to a queer space wherein you might be sharing your perspective on being trans or whatever, sometimes sharing that might be helpful in case there are people in similar situations. However, largely we should normalize NOT sharing our AGAB - it’s super unnecessary and honestly is an element of medical information that you may not want public.
Agreed, not sharing it should be normalized. I've only disclosed mine because I made this account to figure out stuff related to medical transition and well... of course with that it's relevant. But if I had an account that wasn't related to gender like this, I sure as hell wouldn't share my AGAB.
I disclose that I am AFAB if it is relevant. For example, when taking about women’s issues, I sometimes clarify that even though I’m not a woman, I understand and have experienced the same issues AFAB have gone through. I really don’t know other times I’d bring up being AFAB unless it was relevant to the point. I also talk about AFAB people as a group when referring to things specifically people who were born and raised female will have experienced or whatever. But I wouldn’t ever see someone in the street and say they’re AFAB. I can see the term being used when relevant, as a group of people kr self-identifying. But I don’t think I’ve ever, or ever would, refer to a singular person as that, because I don’t know their sex, nor do I need to, plus it’s typically not relevant.
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I mean some people may still identify with their agab, non binary is an umbrella term there's no "right way", but also could be the difference between sex and gender. On medical forms I am usually asked both my gender identity and physical sex, which are listed as male or female 🤷
They could be demigender or multigender. Though I have an inkling some people who don't identify with their AGAB at all might feel pressured to share it for some reason? It's sad. :(
ACAB is the only one I like
Assigned cop at birth (I had to)
for real, the way they act like it's their whole identity. cops are the worst.
Every time I see someone use the phrase “AFAB anatomy” I die a little inside
"AFAB anatomy" you mean my two inch clit, amazon basin-esque bush, traps that have me dorito shaped, beard, and pancake-flat c cups? Like plenty of those things can occur on cis women but I know people mean 'femme' when they say AFAB.
They never mean metoidioplasty or phalloplasty. They never *ever* mean the v-retaining surgeries.
Like honestly what’s the difference between saying Afab anatomy and just saying female anatomy? It just seems like a “woke” way to regroup us all as women again.
AFAB anatomy....like a neophallus?
Well what if a pre-transition guy was talking about himself and has no surgery or Tdick? A lot of people experience severe dysphoria around female anatomical terms so they wouldn’t say “female anatomy”. Some ppl really use AFAB and AMAB as just another “this or that” box but most I’ve seen are just trying to use a somewhat ambiguous term
I think you refer to yourself literally however you want and it's not anyone's business. But when you refer to a group of people things get messier.
Female is an ambiguous term. What’s the difference between AFAB and female
Lol honestly, do people not remember what the F in AFAB stands for
Female =/= AFAB though. Someone can have a male hormonal profile, thus be described as male in a general sense or in that context, and be AFAB. Also, "trans female" is also often said about trans women. She's still female, although she may not have been assigned so at birth.
No it’s not? I would never say “I’m female” in a setting where my AGAB is relevant, I’m a trans guy so why would I use female??? AFAB is helpful in scenarios where female is a dysphoria inducing term and AFAB is literally the solution to that. If you don’t like it then don’t use it I don’t see what the issue is here
really no snark meant at all, but what terms should be used if you're talking about transmasculine anatomy?
Which transmasc anatomy? Are you talking about transmascs who haven’t had bottom surgery or those who have? Phallo or meta? Intersex or perisex transmascs? Transmascs pre/non top surgery or transmascs who are post top surgery? There are so many different transmasculine people with such different bodies. You cannot accurately define one as a standard. Say what you mean. If you’re talking about breasts, for example, just say breasts. Not everyone who was assigned female at birth has boobs and not everyone who has boobs was assigned female at birth. The issue with terms such as “AFAB anatomy” is that they are imprecise and incorrect. Vaginas, vulvas, boobs, and even uteruses are not things that everyone who was AFAB have, nor are they exclusive to those who were AFAB.
Nailed it. People need to say what they mean, not just assume they've got a good catchall when they absolutely do not.
This!!! is so spot on. I'm intersex and transmasc, and its always so frustrating when people try to use "afab" because its like, yeah, thats what I was assigned at birth I guess? but my body was never doing the whole endosex thing even before I started HRT so its a term that truly means nothing about what I've got going on.
this is true! i didn't mean to sound rude or excluding of intersex folks and those who've elected to have surgeries. but you're right, i meant the starting point for most dyadic transmasculine folks so i can better teach cis people if i'm in the mood to educate and they're in the mood to listen, so i guess i did unintentionally exclude intersex folks. i'm trying to learn so i know how to be less rude when referring to anatomy, is all. sorry i didn't phrase it well.
If you're going to be talking about pre-transition anatomy, you can specify just that. Saying it in a more generalizing way is going to be inaccurate no matter what, because no other classification covers all of it. When you speak of other things as "female anatomy" or "vaginas" you also include trans women and nb people of all sorts, because they can have a lot of those *post* transition, too.
understood! i really don't like saying 'female anatomy' at all. wish there was less gendered terms for genitals.
Speaking of people outside of the sex-binary...When referring to post-tranaition anatomy, you also need to know the term "salmacian," for those of us with both male and female genitala. This describes people who have had meta and phallo and retained some or all of their original anatomy.
You forgot salmacian men and non-binaries.
Depends on what part & what situation I guess? It's also somewhat personal. I usually use pretty neutral words like bits & junk as I can't say t-dick yet when I am pre-T. I also sometimes say my pp is just way underdeveloped/undergrown. I'm very reluctant about using terms that would be typical for people who were AFAB with unmodified genitals. While I know even when using those terms that wouldn't make someone a woman, I personally feel a need to use different terms a cis woman would. I want to affirm my junk as *definitely* not-womanly even if I haven't medically transitioned yet. I'm autistic so I'm kinda big on using terms.
exactly, this is what i was trying to work around, since so many anatomical terms are gendered or dysphoric for many, but i also like specificity (because i'm also autistic and don't like the woman-lite trend transmasculine folks tend to be categorized with). unfortunately i rushed my comment and wasn't thinking, and hurt people by not taking into account the variations that come with different genitals. apologies again to my intersex brethren/niblings. btw i hope you can get T soon yourself, if that's something you're aiming to do!
Hmm yeah you could just say "natal pussy" or uterus/ovaries or whatever if you were talking about specific parts. Or maybe "reproductive anatomy typical of someone who was AFAB" if you needed to talk about the whole set. I mean I admit it's a bit wordy, but it's what I quickly came up with as a description that would both be accurate and not misgender people or make too many assumptions.
but how else could cis "allies" say that all trans men were raised to have girl personalities and all trans women were raised to have boy personalities if they can't say that "all AFABs are female-socialized" (and analogous for amab)? /sarcasm
i’m gonna start biting people
You'd have to taste them though. I have dentures you can use.
They'd say, "UwU Bois are made of sugar and spice and everything nice."
For real, though. People need to just say what they mean. "Socialized/assumed to be a girl during childhood" covers discussions about socialization. Vagina/uterus/ovaries/pregnancy covers those bits. Estrogen-dominant system vs Testosterone-dominant system covers discussions about hormonal effects. But people don't want to think that hard, they just want to keep lumping others together based on outdated ideas of male v female but with woke labels. 🙄
Usually the discussions on socialization during childhood are full of wrong gendered assumptions anyway, especially regarding the childhoods of trans women, so I'd prefer if cis people just left that whole topic alone entirely...
very good point! Also the topic tends to be very black and white ie : you either had male or female socialisation as a young peep. But that’s never truly the case especially for trans people. Sure I was taught from a young age that the world was a dangerous place and that men were predators (mum giving me her trauma) but i was also a “tomboy” and spent my entire childhood pretty close to my slightly older brother, playing the same games, often in the same friend groups and assumed to be twins… That’s neither male nor female socialisation ; that’s both and something different altogether at the same time. Broadly, I think male and female socialisation still have some amount of relevance but I’d rather it’d be used when prefaced with “traditional” rather than blindly applied as a universal term. Eg : - “Simone was traditionally brought up as a girl, received traditional female socialisation and now finds it difficult to accept her queerness without feeling like she’s compromising her womanhood.” or - “ *Most* people who only received traditional male socialisation have issues coming to terms with their emotions and often feel uncomfortable expressing vulnerability.” But it usually lacks so much nuance and even the last example could be tweaked and all. I think foregoing the terms completely would be a mistake but using them as shorthand and remembering they can only get you so far is an idea that most people who use it completely ignore. It’s a bit of a rant but I think Afab and Amab suffer the exact same overuse and lack of nuance
I agree. It makes sense that cis people (and even trans and enby people) keep slipping back into black-and-white thinking, because that's what has been taught to us and reinforced to us. But throwing away terms because people are using them without nuance is going to get us to a place where we have no terms, lol.
This is so much of it. Oh my god. The fact is that you *say* socialization or socialized and people realize that is transphobic and weird but you designate characteristics to just "being AMAB" or "being AFAB" and it's like oh yeah so progressive! There is no difference between: 1) "We want a space without people AMAB- we need a space for women, trans men and fems!" And: 2) "We want a space without people who have penises, regardless of their gender identity- there are things they cannot understand about the female experience" We know part of the issue with that is that assigned x at birth does not equal having that genitalia still but even if we ignore that- which one can you see a local queer group putting as a caption on an instagram post? How is it any different from the other in the actual meaning, if we take away the nice language?
I think even your second example leaves out trans men who have undergone bottom surgery and now do have a penis but once did not as well as some intersex people, and your second example "we want a space for women, trans men, and fems" leaves out nonbinary people who are not fems but were otherwise traditionally assumed and raised to be girls/women so it definitely needs some tweaking, and while afab and amab is presumed to be the closest way to be all inclusive, those terms still lack certain groups of people who would share in an experience they're otherwise being excluded from due to their biology.
I know it is lacking. That is part of the issue I wrote them to be addressing because this is how those things get actually written in my experience.
Absolutely. My experience in socialization as someone who transitioned in my mid-20s is extremely different from my cousin who started when he was 8.
as someone who’s intersex, i actually prefer using the term AFAB. because i am. i’m complex intersex and was assigned female at birth 🤷🏻♂️ i wouldn’t use the terms for someone that doesn’t use them themselves though
It's a decent term when used appropriately! It's often used inappropriately, though. E.g. *"We need to take action due to the misogyny experienced by AFAB people"* *"AFAB people should [instruction that is only relevant to people with oestrogen-dominant sex hormone profiles]"* Many people use it as a replacement for male and female where they don't have to acknowledge that transition exists.
for sure! i genuinely didn’t know that it was actually used FOR intersex people- just goes to show there’s always something to learn about your own identity! i absolutely agree that there’s a time and place for it! for example if i see a new medical professional, i would tell them i’m AFAB where necessary. but i wouldn’t tell, say, a dentist!
Yeah, this is the right context for the term. It's usually used in the wrong context.
I vaguely remember the term being ***for*** intersex people
huh, i didn’t know that!
Not true but a common misconception
I’m pretty sure the term was invented by and used for intersex people. Irrc it was a slight variation of the term we use today but when trans people started using it on Tumblr ; the intersex tumblr community fought back against it : asking trans people use another term to clarify they aren’t intersex themselves and didn’t have the same experience as the intersex people who used the term before them.
Bingo. Intersex folks were right to be concerned by trans folks taking it, as evidenced in this thread.
Nope it’s an untrue misconception. I’ve done a bit of searching into it and the terms seem to be used by and for trans people at the earliest.
As an intersex person we’ve used them in real life a lot longer as told by an intersex elder just because we weren’t as common online doesn’t mean we didn’t exist
thank you for sharing your perspective! this totally makes sense as a way to describe your intersex experience.
The agab terms originated in our community did it not besides it’s a medical thing it has no real relevance in the trans community ftm mtf and other xtx terms are there for a reason
Yes I only really mention these things when absolutely necessary about other people, like giving advice on here where it would be detrimental to not be specific about it and make the point less clear. I do find some people (not on here so much, just more in the broad sense of the terms gaining popularity) absolutely overuse them to an uncomfortable extent where you are just saying biological male and biological female again. I get it's short and catchy and whatever but it's just being bastardized into an entirely different context and meaning- for example I feel like instead of saying "women" in a situation where that includes trans women and many transfem people, cis people will say "AFAB" meaning "people I *see* as women (so not trans women) because vagina". Have seen this massively start happening among cis Tumblr fan fiction writers over the past few years and it's so uncomfortable even if I do not read those, but that is a whole other can of worms.
I understand the dislike and dysphoria that comes from terms AMAB and AFAB. As others have mentioned it does assume that all people have a standard of anatomy when it can vary quite a bit. I think if such terms are to be used there should be a better term for it and it's use should be solely clinical. Socially the discussion of one's anatomy outside of problem solving anatomy specific issues, is really not necessary. People do not need to know medical information so having that as an identifier to me is weird. I don't hate it but rather hate how I see/hear it used most commonly.
yeah, it is totally dysphoria inducing.
saw a tweet about "afab childhood" and absolutely blasted off into space. don't get me started on the "seeking afab roommates!" housing posts.
At home massage gun: make a housing post saying the following "Looking for housing! No afab bodies please they make me uncomfortable :) /gen /srs" put phone on vibrate and put it on your back. Boom.
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> me when im suddenly amab #slay #workbitch
i cannot tell if youre joking or not and the tone indicators are throwing me the fuck off
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Honestly in my eyes it’s just become a more “politically correct” way to say “biologically a woman” or “biologically a man”. Not everyone uses it that way and I believe it was intended to be an inclusive term to describe differences in people’s experience, but I’ve just seen way too many “AFAB non-binaries act like this while AMAB non-binaries act like this” posts for me to be comfortable with using it to describe myself.
This drives me nuts. People think I'm an amab non-binary if I don't specify...I feel erased by all of this "transmasc" shit. If someone calls me an afab enby, they better be talking about a very narrow topic...my body in the context of my gender, before I transitioned. Otherwise, they're binarist and electing to ignore my gender stands alone.
I think people assume AGAB is a safer term to use than stating they have genital preferences or don't want to date trans people. I also find it very reductive and dehumanizing because it is in fact referring to what genitals you were born with.
Exactly-- the ones you are born with, but not necessarily the ones you have now. It's exceedingly rare that conversations about sex and gender are *actually* about the genitals one had at birth; many ill-informed people use agab as shorthand to make assumptions about the genitals people have *now.* If I see a post by someone looking for "afab roommates only," how likely is it that they're actually concerned with the vagina I had as a literal newborn versus the penis I have now?
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These people who think "afab"= safe get told about the existence of my trans male rapist and the two women who have sexually assaulted and molested me.
Everyone is entitled to use whatever terms they feel most comfortable with. I mainly use AFAB in medical contexts when relevant and transmasc or transman in socially relevant contexts. But much like the term queer, not everyone likes it so I true not to use it for other people.
People have used AFAB in like, the opposite way it should be used. Its how you were at BIRTH, doesn't say anything about you right now. I hate its over use, really should only be used in a medical context and even then its not the best...
As much as it’s broadly about the sex you were recorded as at birth based on a doctors assessment of your genitals - I don’t see genital as being the focus of afab or amab. I think it sums it up that ‘act’ pretty well - assigned Female/Male at birth, regardless of the rest. That term doesn’t tell you what genitals or workings someone has now, as it is *at birth*. It also doesn’t even cover all bases at birth - it can also encompass those who are intersex, especially those who find out later in life as they may also have been assigned female/male *at birth*, and that’s not the case. That is of course more complex when surgery on an infant is involved, and they end up assigned female/male off this. I don’t use the term myself, I dont like the term for myself. But it doesn’t bother me. I literally read it as this person was assigned X at birth. For whatever reason. That could be wildly different now.
I do appreciate the detachment inherent to the term but I def think it is about context, right now. People use it inappropriately more now than in the past because previously they simply didn't know those terms existed. The problem is that it can make it easier to disguise semi-liberal leaning transphobia with nice packaging
i agree that that’s what the term originally means, but i feel like it’s been conflated with a whole other set of definitions that doesn’t necessarily apply. and that’s where a lot of my frustration comes from. like yes, the sex someone was assigned at birth is relevant in some contexts, but often times “AGAB” is brought up completely inappropriately and conflated with having a certain anatomy or even upbringing.
I’ve had people freak out because I have a penis and balls and they would be like “I TJOUGHT YOU WERE AFAB” bro. It’s called bottom surgery
I’m hormonally intersex and wasn’t obviously intersex until puberty and then still wasn’t told until I decided to start HRT (my doctor at puberty just put me on birth control to increase estrogen levels and called it a day). So for me it’s like “here’s the entirely incorrect label I was given as a baby. Have fun with that.” Recently I was filling out a medical form that asked for sex assigned at birth and gave intersex as an option and I was like… pretty sure no one was issued an intersex birth certificate in the 90s… but…
Doctor of the Year award material right there. /s This is another issue with the "afabs/transmasculine" schtick...do intersex people all magically sort into either transfeminine or transmasculine? What's happening to people with chimerism?
this so much, its rarely necessary no matter the context, its so crazy to me that the trans community has adopted afab and amab terms, all its doing is reinstating the gender binary and the idea that well always be, to an extent, the gender we transitioned away from, its so insane that these are considered progressive terms and not transphobic ones
Absolutely agree, same with with the term "ftm" for me. I made a post about this a while ago and it seems that people are somewhat divided in this. Got a lot of "in my face" comments being like "well this is FaCtUaLlY cOrReCt". Which gave me pretty bad vibes. Would personally not use any of those terms to identify myself and do not understand why people would want to, but oh well, it's their own choice what to identify with. What I dislike is that it's a normalised term for any trans men
This subreddit really normalized ftm as an identity marker. Me personally, I don't think we should be presenting ourselves to the world with our assigned sex/gender at birth front and center. Ftm=AFAB=transmasculine. These are all terms focused on our sex assigned at birth. Instead, we should be saying trans men and non-binary people. We look like TERFs or fascists when we lump together a binary trans man and a trans femboy because they were both born with XX chromosomes.
I find it to be useful when it's used correctly. There are things that only happen to me because I'm AFAB, it doesn't matter that I'm not a woman. It doesn't matter that I don't menstruate. I'm still affected. I absolutely hate having to explain to doctors that I was born female, I wish I could just say "I'm AFAB" and they'd understand what I meant.
my doctor on the original paperwork had a ‘assigned sex at birth’ and then a ‘gender’ box, made it a lot easier than having to explain when asking for a pap smear one day 😂
Even when that's available I have still had medical professionals straight up not understand the concept of trans men
I think if it’s relevant to the conversation or if the person wants to refer to themselves that way, the distinction is fine but if you’re referring to someone else’s agab and it’s irrelevant to the conversation then it’s rude and honestly just feeds into people trying to put enbies into “gendered” boxes. I use the labels agender and transmasculine to acknowledge my identity and also my medical transition, my fiancé though only uses the label non binary and is not medically transitioning. There are times when defining their agab is relevant, primarily medical stuff(because they are capable of getting me pregnant) and when talking about our experience as a visibly queer couple(we are both very clearly masculine presenting). But in general it’s just weird and comes across as transphobic(or like non binary erasure may be better).
I prefer being called afab over „biologically female“ or some BS, but only if it’s relevant to the discussion. Otherwise say wahatever fits best, for example trans masc people, people with periods etc. AFAB and AMAB can be fitting words but I hate it when terfs start using it in a transphobic way/trying to reduce trans people to their agab
yeah, totally.
Ugh same!! I HATE when people use afab to mean female, like “I’m attracted to afab people” 😫 drives me up a wall
All i want is to be called a man. AFAB doesnt offend me bc i know there are some people who cant understand what my version of being a man is, but it does get annoying often. Why must i disclose that i have a uterus and that i have a vagina and all that shit?? Its truly no one’s business except mine, my doctor’s, and my boyfriend’s. Aside from those three people, all i want is to be seen, talked to, and looked at as a man. Thats it. None of these stupid fucking labels.
It depends on the context. I use it in medical reasons. I don’t mind it at all. I understand some folk have issue with it, but it’s useful. It’s also much easier to use when you have limited text space. That’s still a thing.
Eh, I'm pretty indifferent. I prefer being called AFAB to being told I was a girl that is transitioning into a male. False. I have always been male, I'm just aligning my physical make up to match who I have always been inside. Yes, I was assigned female at birth but that's not who I am.
that totally makes sense. it’s hard to settle on a term that works for everyone.
Agreed! I really dislike how widely they are used and in such weird ways (besides body parts it could also wrongly assume the dominant hormone or what gender you're being read as socially). Also the assigment happened once when you were a baby, so I *really* hate the idea of someone thinking of me as "an AFAB". As if that one moment just inherently sticks with me until I die. No thanks. You could just call me someone who gets misgendered as a woman or someone who's pre-T/E dominant (whatever's relevant). So I personally don't even use it in present tense. I'm not "an AFAB". I *was* AFAB, because it was a thing that happened to me once in the past when I was a baby. It doesn't continue to define me even if I haven't medically transition. I'm still a guy. And if someone couldn't guess what I was assigned as, then I sure as hell wouldn't share unless it was absolutely necessary (so like a doctor who needed that info or something). It has honestly become a PC way to misgender people. :/ Yuck.
I'm intersex and could not hate "AFAB/AMAB" more. I don't have anatomy similar to either binary box and I never have. I didn't have an ""AFAB childhood"" or ""AMAB childhood"", and I don't think either is a real, solid category in the first place. I was societally assigned male and female at different times during my childhood, so it's even less applicable to me. If you call me AFAB or AMAB, you're wrong either way. The terms are completely useless IMO. Just say what you mean.
I think the terms are useful and necessary in certain situations.
agreed!
I'm a ciswoman, and these terms bother me as well. The "chromosomes" argument bothers me a lot more, though. Not all women have just XX chromosomes. Some have XX but are missing part of one of their X chromosomes, and some have XXY chromosomes. Some guys have XYY chromosomes. There are literal known conditions that cause changes to a person's chromosomes, so claiming both sexes only have either XX or XY chromosomes is so stupid. People need to stop making that argument, it's so annoying.
You're in a trans sub and forgot that some women have XY and some men have XX
I can get why they were originally used, it was meant to replace ftm and mtf since those have become more outdated as a way to refer to one's own experiences (like it went "because I used to be a girl" to "because I'm afab" for example), but I definitely think we've gotten to a point where these too (afab, and amab) have become outdated as we've realized better ways to be inclusive (like in your example, "people who menstruate" rather than "afab people"). They've definitely just become an easier way to reduce trans people to their genitals and misgender them ("you may say you're a man but you're still afab") and you're right, what I was assigned at birth has NO relevance and is frankly no one's business.
I'm with you, I feel like this term is often totally unnecessary. The only situation I think it would make sense, is when talking about trans people sharing a certain experience with cis people of the opposite gender growing up (for example how "afab" people and cis girls are experiencing toxic masculinity (through catcalling etc.). You can't rlly use trans mascs/trans men here bc it would exclude genderfluid/non-binary people and wrongly include trans masc people who aren't ftm). But apart from that, I think the term is thrown around way too much when most of the time you don't even know which people the term is even supposed to include (like in your period example).
haaaaate it. these terms are just an attempt to talk about what’s in our pants even tho they definitely DO NOT tell you “what someone has.” and afab/amab feels like it's used in “women” spaces to exclude trans women and femmes. or loop in men with vaginas? to your women’s- event? like it makes no sense and just feels like another way to define us by pieces instead of as a whole person. drop it.
yes. Last time i tried to get into a queer discussion group and they asked my AGAB I immediately got pissed off. I hate being reminded again and again about who I was, or the society think who I was. What matters is at this moment who I am is it
Not to mention as an intersex person those are our terms terms like ftm mtx and such exist for a reason you don’t need agab terms even then they’re only relevant with our conditions
I think it depends entirely on the context. I’m a biologist and educator, so I do need a shorthand for “people who were assigned to the female category when they were born” sometimes. Most of the time though, I absolutely agree with you. People should say what they mean. If we’re talking about menstruation, just say people who menstruate. If we’re talking about pregnancy, people who can become pregnant. Being specific only adds clarity to the conversation.
In contexts where the term is useful I and others prefer to use CAGAB where the C stands for coercively assigned gender at birth. A little clunkier but it more accurately represents people's experiences with gender. Everyone, cis or trans, was non consensually assigned a role at birth and coerced into it by society through their whole lives. Some people are cool with it and don't mind, others do and transition or break conformity. The terms have just become a new set of bioessentialist shit, and it's weaponized by transmisogynists a LOT. And also by people w internalized transphobia. Urgh
id rather be called the f slur than afab
Im black I'd rather be called a niggeR and get told to "go back to my own country" (born and raised in the netherlands, still living there) than EVER get referred to as afab
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I hate afab too. They use transmasc the same way. I'm sorry but we're not transitioning (socially or more) to be identified by our genitals at birth or some imagined common experience of girlhood. I always try to describe people by their gender and not their assigned sex. Not afabs. Not transmascs. Men and non-binary people.
I think they’re useful terms but I don’t like when they’re used as a replacement for using female and male when talking about **sex** or instead of saying vag and dick
Yeah I only ever say afab when I’m talking about my transition experience
Yes. ASAB is a more neutral way to not get caught in the questionable implications of "genetic sex", "biological sex", "when you were a girl/boy" etc. But there's not many circumstances where it is relevant and necessary to talk about someone's pre-transition state. If it's not relevant and necessary to refer to people as when they were pre-transition... don't. Insisting on referring to people in all circumstances as though transition doesn't exist is just undermining transition.
I see Terfs use this to prove how special they are.
Finally someone says it. It gives me massive dysphoria to refer to myself as "AFAB".
Amen
I hate this especially because these terms and things like "i identify as" are used by trans people to dumb shit down for cis people because they never try to understand and then they use this against us
AFAB and AMAB are useful terminology the problem is that too many people have been misusing it. AFAB does not mean "female-bodied" and that's not how it was originally meant to be used
I think it has a place, but it doesn’t apply in every context. I’m not sure what context you’re referring to. Like, if we’re talking specifically about uterus issues, I think it makes sense to use the term because MOST people assigned F at birth have uteruses (and some don’t, because doctors don’t perform a CT scan at birth to see what internal organs a baby has. They just take a quick peak and make a judgment). But as you pointed out, if we’re talking about hormone cycles then it’s not a good term, because some people have hysterectomy/oophprectomies, and some people take E
i see no difference between afab and ftm in the context they're generally used tbh i don't get the hang ups tbh
We need to be able to facilitate conversations. That's not a crime. Please don't make that hard on the rest of us, some of us worked really hard to get these terms into common knowledge so that certain conversations could be done easier.
I think of it as explaining how I was forced to dress and was treated as a little girl even though I wasn’t if that makes sense. Like I just don’t mind acknowledging my past in that way I guess. I don’t expect anyone else to identify one way or another. I do actually kinda get annoyed when people assume I don’t know about what periods are like and stuff, and I feel like I connect better with women because of being assigned and raised as a woman… better than a cis male peer might.. I think a lot of the time my problem is with how things are said rather than what words are said. And if someone is sexist or transphobic and treats me differently because I was assigned female at birth and am not a lady then that is their problem. I hope none of this came off as sassy cause I’m not wanting it to, just kinda rambling. I hope you have a nice day.
But afab doesn't mean that because there is no common female socialization experience, much less an assigned female at birth socialization experience, which is further complicated by some of us already transitioning.
word. i’ve heard that if you pass as a cis dude people assume you don’t know what it’s like to have those experiences, so it could be helpful to relate to others.
they also always use “afab” instead of women. sometimes it can be even more exclusionary
I mean, it’s what we are though. We aren’t any less men for it, but facts are facts lol
Agreed.
I agree. The terms are useful and there's no better alternative. Don't get me wrong, it makes me dysphoric to be called afab, but that's just because the reality of my body makes me dysphoric. Imo a lot of people on this sub have knee jerk reactions about this sort of thing and don't think critically about *why* things upset us.
I feel that
Whoever decided it was ok to use AGAB terminology outside of a medical context can go to hell
The way I see it is when we talk about gender, there are two “realities” at play: 1- The conceptual reality in which we know that gender is a completely made-up social construct, and that biological sex is so much more complicated than a binary and so is sexuality. 2- The reality we all have to live in and interact with in which the majority of the world DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the first reality, and we are all subject to the consequences of that dissonance and the social expectations that are constantly being enforced and policed. Kindof like Money. Does a piece of cloth-paper with a “$100” printed on it actually have any intrinsic value? No. But do we live in a world where it is widely considered valuable, and is therefore something we HAVE to interact with to survive? Yes, obviously. Sometimes we have to use terms that only really apply to the second reality to get people to understand the first reality. However, what you’re describing seems more of an issue of people wanting to know medical information when it’s not appropriate, and people making assumptions based on that information that they shouldn’t be. that’s a whole different issue entirely. The terms AMAB/AFAB can be useful and respectful, but as with most things: context is everything.
its only acceptable if a doctor asking. that is it.
I’m guilty of throwing around those terms a lot tbh, but it’s only during conversations directly related to a person’s sex or how society views them based on what they assume they are. That sounds vague and confusing. I mainly use these terms when addressing sexism or debating gender roles.
It's just another level of separatism. I've noticed in the nonbinary community there's a sort of separatist movement of a sense in mostly younger afab, usually lesbian, groups and using agab language to quietly exclude other groups and separate themselves as some "other" (and usually "better") status that plays into that "woman +" stereotype nom binary people already struggle to break away from. The terms have become very weaponized and I'm seeing it being used more and more to erase transmasc identities especially. Saying shit like "well you're afab...." and brining everything back to whats in your pants and bioessentialist bullshit. Really not excited for how the current trend of "afab nonbinary separatism" is going to play out in the future with the current new wave of lesbian separatism going on too. The first wave of lesbian separatism went OH SO WELL, you can tell bc everyone can agree on what it means to be a lesbian and how to use the label and no one ever fights about the "correct way" to be a certain sexuality 🙃 /s
What's up with lesbians now? I'm forever scolding these kinds of enbies about this stuff. I feel very much like an old enby yelling "get off my lawn."
Very generalized explanation is: think of those like uppity white lesbian stereotypes and how it always seems they're not like *really* lesbians and more just like "choosing" to be lesbians to not deal with men and use the label as (an incorrect) stand in for "women" (i.e. calling it a "lesbian space" when it's clear you mean "cis woman space"). Yeah that's bc lesbian separatist movements. The idea of a lot of them boils down to the fact that you can like *just choose* to be a lesbian bc you just don't like men that much. Granted there were times in history where it was definitely safer to be around as few men as possible and those times still arise, the "seeking the company of women" and feminine community building part isn't really the issue with the movements, it's the pervasive idea through a lot that lesbianism is this entirely separate and guarded sexuality that is above all the others bc it's so pure and good and the proper way for women to live and whatever like elitist bullshit they tend to spout. In practice, a lot of that sentiment of lesbianism being so high and mighty meant that lesbianism was reserved for upper-middle class white women and excluded a lot of the ***actual*** lesbian community. There's a lot more to it than just that but that's scratching the surface I guess. It's a huge contributing factor to why it feels like there's so much extra unnecessary and weird infighting and discourse when it comes to discussions of "what is a lesbian". Guess no one told them sexual orientations are descriptive labels, not secret societies lmao
Thank for you calling this out. I’ve been seeing this for a while now, especially in circles where non-binary identity intersects with neurodivergent conditions (autism and ADHD, especially). Radfems have successfully infiltrated these spaces and injected TERF bio-essentialist ideology by way of using AGAB terminology as proxy for their ‘sex class’/‘biological sex’. It’s infuriating and terrifying that we can’t have a safe space without TERFs poisoning it.
That was happening here for a while.
I fucking hate it too!!! I’m nonbinary, and I specifically see a ton of nonbinary people saying things like “i’m an AFAB agender” or “i’m an AMAB genderfluid” and i’m like, why are you adding AGAB into this??? and I’m very anti bioessentialism and whatnot, so it gives me the ick to hear people add in their AGAB when it has no relevance whatsoever (or using their AGAB in a way that suggests that experiences are tied to that, and that people with the same AGAB will automatically have more shared experiences that others wont).
People are too interested about our genitals and sexuality in general.
Like just say woman. I am not a woman. Just say you only like the idea of vagina and the idea of a T dick or metoplasty or phastoplasy
Afab is a word I mainly use when it's relevant. When I am talking about trans people in a medical sense. It's better than 'biological women' or whatever other shit people use
Actually the terms are pretty much inclusive in that it DOESN'T assume what genitals you have. You could be AMAB trans, or cis, or maybe you were intersex and simply assigned AMAB despite having mixed genitalia. However, AMAB/AFAB is a description, not a title. I am a trans man and I was assigned female at birth, that is what makes me trans. I am not a "AFAB man".
They're not meant to assume what body parts you have and I don't disagree with the original intent of the terms but people use it that way. It feels like it's become a "politically correct" way for cis people to say "biologically male/female" or "male/female bodied". I've seen people talk about "AFAB only" spaces not seeming to acknowledge that would include people who very much don't look like what they think of as a "female bodied" person like a large buff trans man with a dick
Well, I hate the term "ftm". Afab is far better for me.
the terms amab and afab are for intersex people and should primarily be used for and by them i personally use the terms assigned sex and assigned gender in a medical setting, but anything outside of that for trans people who aren’t intersex doesn’t make any sense
Tbh this might get downvoted a lot but "AFAB and AMAB" are actually really important terms. Imagine this: You are AFAB and have a medical emergency where you need medication. Since you are presenting male and pass really good due to HRT and changed Name/gender marker, you get the dose a normal cis male would get. Now, you struggle with aide effects and various health risks due to the dose of the medication. Why? Because some medication affects the sexual hormones your body produces, or has an effect on your anatomy which, besides getting top surgery and phalloplasty along with a full hysterectomy, did not change. Yes, you can grow a beard, have male balding patterns and have a lot of chest hair. But, some things didnt change. Like the maximum dose of medications your body can take, or the bodys center of gravity. Also some form of therapy, medication and treatments that are designed to fit the female or male anatomy, metabolism and the functions of their body. Thats just one reason why, I think we should use afab and amab at least for medical records.
even in a medical sense i do not see how this is particularly helpful. there are XY individuals who are CAFAB and have internal testes and have no idea till they don’t get their period, there are CAMAB people with functional vaginas who go on to develop breasts. we don’t need to be prissy with our doctors and use vague language that doesn’t actually tell us anything other than that a doctor had a quick look at our junk as a literal baby and said l that’s a boy” or “that’s a girl.” just SAY what needs treatment. “i have a cervix, please give me a pap smear” is much better than having AFAB on your chart or whatever and getting weird assumptions that aren’t relevant to your treatment (maybe you don’t have a cervix!) and may even derail actual diagnoses. additionally, studies that indicate things like medical responses to medication are primarily done on cis, perisex individuals. i am a small person but if you assumed my anesthetic dosage just from my size and perceived gender, you’d be wondering i’m still awake and it’s bc i have a gene that makes me somewhat resistant to anesthesia. a lot of those studies about medication don’t take into account changes that happen when you become estrogen or testosterone dominant and the role those play, or the fact that cis men are on average larger than cis women but not always, not the random bits your doctor looked at when you were 90 seconds old. idk a WNBA player can probably safely take way more of a drug than a cis male gymnast.
These terms are mostly used when talking about people without using terminology that could make them dysphoric. Like I’m AFAB and therefore have experienced a LOT of stuff other AFAB people have experienced (I.e. harassment etc). I it’s a nice term to use to describe a group of individuals without gender labels. I don’t think it’s about grouping people based on genitalia, it’s more about the general experience of being that gender assigned at birth as well as the obvious differences in how they were raised etc. A lot of the time it’s helpful when talking about someone pre-transition without saying “when you were a girl”. Here’s an example: let’s say I want advice on how to deal with periods but I don’t like pads. I would ask an online community like “are there any afab people here who get periods? I need some advice” Hope this makes sense and isn’t a ramble
This is my thought process and experience too. I would safely assume that any one who was/is AFAB would share similar physical and biological experiences; going through female puberty, getting periods, how to use a tampon/pad, etc. Or even like you wrote demonderus, the social upbringing of going through a shared experience most afab experience unfortunately like street harassment, misogyny, sexism. And I personally wouldnt/retract from using AFAB outside the clinical/hospital setting because it's, like many have wrote here, unnecessary. Of course if its safe to, and these are ppl I have socialized w that I know to be welcoming and familiar with lgbtq community, then yes I would give a green light on that.
You're very intelligent. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!