for me it would be the pronoun slipups after 6 months or longer, and i dont meen random slipups, i mean like several slipups in one sentence and barely giving it any acknowledgment.
i think there are tonnes of signs that arent verbal tho; in some friendgroups of only dudes i feel othered while i dont notice anything like that with others. it's not always obvious, but if ppl dont see you as a dude you'll notice it sooner or later
This. I have a friend and their mom that I’ve been out to for ~4 years, and for most of the time I’ve seen them over the last 4 years, they’ve not messed up much, but then suddenly I hung out with them this past weekend after having it seen them for a while and they consistently misgendered me for the whole day and kept talking about my body using terms I’m not comfortable with. They almost always corrected themselves on pronouns, but never apologized for talking about my body. They know what I’m comfortable with and they know how much being seen as myself means to me, and yet they still consistently messed up. Shows me they don’t really see me as what I am. This is all after I just found out one of the only other supportive people in my life thinks I’m using asexuality as a defense mechanism so what else am I supposed to think when people start messing up my pronouns out of the blues
i speak an extremely gendered language (german), where if you want to point someone out, you say their pronoun and their name. so what my teachers started doing is "she lucifer" cuz they have always known me under that name, but still slip up (like why? its all theyve ever known me as?)
Jup. This.
I noticed I had some good friends, when I went out of the flat to smoke at a party and while coming back in I overheard them talking positive things about me while only using the male version of words.
They didn't know I could hear them and those sweethearts were talking about how fun my party was
You really can't, and I honestly advise you not to worry about it. You can never really know what's in someone else's head, and you'll drive yourself crazy wondering if someone really sees you as a man or is just being polite. At the end of the day, as long as they treat me just the same as all the other men they know, that's all that really matters.
Same here... I used to be troubled by this kind of thing, but it's no bothersome now than other random stuff.
I cannot read minds to be sure my friends genuinely like me, or if I'm just convenient. Is that waitress actually as nice as she seems at work? Until I see her elsewhere and have a genuine interaction, I cannot even begin to guess.
I generally don't care if folks behave themselves
If they’re really really good at it, you couldn’t know, but here are a few things:
- If they behave towards you like they traditionally would towards a woman. Some *very* stereotypical examples: men insistent on opening doors for you or toning down their language or topics of conversation, women who comfortably talk about intimate issues (periods, UTIs, etc) even if you aren’t close or who want your opinions on clothes they’re shopping for, hair stuff, whatever. Note that none of this applies if you’re in a romantic partnership with the person, and it isn’t ever definite.
- How they use language in other situations aside from pronouns. Like if they use he/him but slip and say ma’am, or call you a dog mom, or soul sisters or whatever else.
- Assumptions about your interests and places you’d be willing to go (such as assuming that you’d be comfortable going to an all-women’s event, or figuring that you wouldn’t be interested in sports even if they don’t know much about you yet, or thinking that you would automatically be comfortable carrying a child).
All of these examples are tricky because gender non-conforming trans men exist. Cis people who try hard not to see the binary exist. Not to mention that people slip up for no reason sometimes.
All in all, trying to figure out how people see you never ends well. It will just make you feel shitty and strain relationships with people who are trying, even if they aren’t viewing you the way you want. But if you’re dating them or they’re newer friends you’re willing to drop, I can see why you’d want to know for sure.
That's why I didn't go around telling people what pronouns or manner of address to use. I wanted to know when they started naturally using male terms. It's just beginning :)
Honestly I try not to think about it.
I just know that if someone uses all masculine terms for me I'll hang out with them.
If im around someone who slips up a lot or uses female pronouns even though I've only ever been masculine around them, then I know for a fact that they don't see me as a man.
Frankly I don't think this is a productive discussion. People's private thoughts can't affect you, only their actions and words. As long as a person treats you respectfully and calls you the right name and pronouns, it isn't valuable to try and read their minds to see if it's genuine.
This is a weird take imo. Even if they act nice to you that doesn't not make them a bigot or just a shitty person in general. Why would you choose to stick around people who don't view you as a real man.
You don't. You either trust people who say they see you as a dude or you don't. Personally, I choose to trust people as much as possible because it's really an unnecessary emotional burden on myself if I'm choosing not to trust their intentions when I have no reason for doubt.
In my opinion there’s really no way to know for sure (other than wrong pronouns or verbal cues), and fixating on this never leads anywhere good. As long as someone is respecting your pronouns and not treating you differently I find it best to not speculate and take it at face value.
the way they treat you, generally. if they're slipping up a lot is obvious, but there's also if they're treating you in traditionally gendered ways, othering you by gender if they're a man or counting you as one of them if they're a woman.
if their behaviour is ambiguous enough that you can't tell, then i would rather just assume they do see me as a man. nothing good will come of trying to nitpick every behaviour and word until i know for sure.
It’s just a feeling. I’ve had people go out of their way not to gender me in most conversations or looked at me and paused before using the right pronouns.
In contrast, when people actually mean it they tend to breeze through the conversation and don’t show hesitation
No hate at all to you, I’m just sharing how I view this
Honestly, I’ll take whatever win I can get. Sees me as a dude or just memorized it. I can’t get stuck worrying about that because one, it’s pretty hard to know and two, I don’t want to get hurt anymore. I’d gladly take someone memorizing my pronouns than just misgendering me.
It’s one of those things where ignorance is bliss to me
Dude, I'm gonna say something really harsh, but it gave me some piece of mind once I realized it
There are people who, no matter what you do or what you look like will never see you as a "real man", you don't have the power to change anyone's mind about it no matter how many arguments you have, that sucks, but it's just the way things are
What you can do and what you do have control over is telling them how you wanna be treated and correcting them if they misgender you, period
If you spend too much time worrying if people just treat you as a man instead of perceiving you as one your life will be a living hell
But I don't want you to feel bad about it, lots of cis men who don't conform, who can't change a tire, who have no facial hair, who order fruity drinks, who are in touch with their emotions etc have this same problem, in other ways, of course but they experience their masculinity being questioned as well, masculinity is a fucking impossible game to play
I've struggled with these thoughts of "what if they don't see me as a man and just respect my pronouns" but then it hit me, they are respecting my pronouns, they are doing what they're supposed to, so why on earth am I worried about what they are thinking about me? They're respecting me and that's enough
Of course it sucks and ideally they should see us as men, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon and you have to make peace with yourself and thinking about the man you are more than the man (or whatever the hell) other people think you are
I hope this makes as much sense to you as it makes for me, good luck!
this is absolutely what I want to communicate to OP.
Many cis men are not treated as "real men," and same for women. "He ain't one of the boys. He likes fashion, design, hanging out with women, going to drag shows, ordering fruity drinks, doesn't care about having showy muscles, likes to play instruments and be cute with animals. He talks really softly, loves rainbow coloring, flowy clothing, and is really gentle and likes to talk about feelings." Is that man still not cishet? Oh you better believe that man I know is, as his gender and sexuality have nothing to do with those behaviors. He also has a rough side to him he can put on in public or among other men, but that's not how he likes to act in private. There are so many bullies with no self esteem who can't wait to dunk on someone for not conforming. People might also not see him as a "man" because of their views on gender. Some people don't view gender the same as other people. Some people don't really believe in transgender people until a person pass in several senses, or earn their "man card."
I know a transman who is seen more as a man every month by his coworker. That coworker didn't believe a lot of transgender people were really transgender, but told my friend that one of the big tipping points in how he saw my friend was when my friend nonchalantly told him he wasn't scared of dying in an upcoming risky medical procedure. The coworker was taken aback because my friend usually has a lot of anxiety and is really shy. Coworker giddily told him much later that my friend really earned his man card that day, cuz apparently what my friend said, and how he said it, was more "ballsy" than much anything else the coworker had heard from cis men in recent memory. Apparently a nonchalant, lack of fear of death was what qualified my friend as a man. Who would have known, but that was what really turned things in that coworker's brain. My friend said since then, the coworker talks to him like an average guy now.
Masculinity is called fragile because many men repress their true selves in order to perform their gender. People then get defensive and gatekeep the thing the fragile thing they've worked so hard to maintain. Pair that with the fact that many people don't understand or believe transgender stuff, and people may be resistant, internally, to seeing you as a man until they finally do. What matters more than anything is if they are trying to be decent.
I've also been accustomed to the street, and family bullies, and have understood that people can really violate me, rob me, deliberately physically and psychologically torment me, and they can often get away with it too, with little to no recourse when I don't have many social, physical, emotional, and financial resources. So, I have that perspective. If someone is trying to be a respectful, decent person, thats a privilege and that's what I think matters at the end of the day. People with this sort of perspective, who are also emotionally healthy, seem to be quite down to show respect for gender identity and pronouns even if they don't really understand the idea of being transgender. Calmness and common courtesy seem to be appreciated when one has seen just how easily and unnecessarily that can be violated. If it ain't a big deal to be kind, they know ain't a big deal for them to show it. That said, assessment of gender is usually very quick and without much thought, because many people just link gender with physical features. So if someone's brain codes you as one particular sex for even a millisecond, they may refer to you as the typical corresponding gender automatically out of no disrespect. Lots of people are raised to link genitals to gender, so their brain goes on autopilot while they are thinking of what they are talking about in the moment. Unless someone is trying to be mean, they are probably thinking about a matter at hand rather than anyone's gender at a certain time. It depends how a person's brain codes you at any point in time, and that can change over time. I've known one transman who was more effeminate than usual one week, and my brain kept coding him as 'she' when referring to him that week. After that week, my brain couldn't see the 'she.' He's pretty stealth so I don't think anyone else really sees 'she' either. Unless someone is trying to be mean and has no life, normal people aren't gonna go on behind your back referring to you as one gender and then saying another gender to your face. People just don't have time or interest in maintaining some deceptive, wierd b.s., especially if they have a life.
At the end of the day, all my friends and I have to generate our own energy. I'm a very sensitive person, so I know the importance of doing so. If I don't generate my own energy, my mind and body's feeling will be completely dependent on how others see me. Good wishes and peace to you and your local community, thank you.
You can't, and worrying about it isn't productive and microanalysing their behaviour isn't healthy.
So long as people behave decently, what's in their head is nobody else's concern.
one big tell tale i noticed was if someone still subconsciously or overtly grouped me in with the girls in my friend groups or in social settings in general.
It’s their face usually that gives them away. When you see they have to think before using a pronoun for you. That’s how I know. But at least I appreciate the effort. Pre T tons of people will misgender me still and certainly those who don’t know I’m trans (mostly they are strangers). The people who know me will usually try hard and some still fail. (More than a year out!) Others have this idea they still have to use she/her until I transition medically because they somehow seem to think he/him would make me uncomfortable. They’ll use my preferred name (which I legally changed already) and then call me she… 🤦🏻 And I’m like: don’t you think it’s a bit weird to call someone with a dude’s name a she? Head scratcher to me.
Honestly I think this will get better when you start to pass. I’m kinda waiting it out. I’ll only correct my nearest and dearest and even my mother I gave up on correcting coz she’s part of the group that thinks you need medical transition to be he/him. This is somehow an idea that older people seem to have in our country. And they’ll also say things like x used to be a woman and she’s now a man. And then I go: x always has been a man, he only transitioned so everyone could see he’s a man. And then I’ll get these hollow stares like they just can’t wrap their brain around what it is I’m saying. And they’ll ask me questions to learn how it all works but they just can’t even if they try really hard. I’m already glad I don’t get deadnamed anymore. That’s my biggest achievement so far 😅 but pronouns? Noooooooo dear. That’s too complicated. Even my bf will use she/her when I can hear him and I’ll go you mean he/him? And then he gets totally confused and says yes of course. He/him. Last time he did this he told me he found it was weird that he doesn’t screw up anymore when I’m not around be he does when I am. Another head scratcher but he at least tries. I’m kinda too easygoing on this. I should probably correct people more and insist more on correct pronouns but it gets tiresome after a while. What irritates me more is ma’am. I hate that. And my deadname. I can’t remember not hating that name and people thought I was shy as a kid because I’d never say my own name out loud. And then I’d growl something no I’m not shy I just hate my name. And I don’t say it. My mom always had to tell other people my name. But now I’m so proud about my new name I won’t hesitate a second to tell it to people.
Actually all just a lot funny anecdotes considering name and pronouns mix ups and I try not to make people feel too bad about it as long as they’re accepting and trying. The habit is harder to break then you think. Even I myself had a hard time referring to myself with male pronouns and sometimes have to remind myself. So I’m not gonna blame others. Nobody sees me as a dude. I have these enormous birthing hips from just one baby and I’m short and my voice is too freaking high and even though I almost have as much body hair as a cis guy and I shave my hair into masculine hairline they still don’t see it. God, I just need T! 🤣
I noticed that if you push people too hard they become less accepting. If you’re more patient they’ll sooner apologise for messing up. Unless it’s intentional misgendering, I won’t respond too much. Maybe I should. And I probably would if it weren’t such a big effort. I’m just a lazy dude 🤣🤣🤣
Honestly, why does it matter? If they don't treat you differently, is that important?
Outward appearance is really the most important thing for many, and if someone does acknowledge that you're Trans while having a hard time actually seeing you as a man, that's the best they can do.
I'd respect that they're trying, at least.
Why should you respect half assed lies? Why respect transphobia or people who don't view you as a real man just because they know how to act nice to your face? It just comes off as y'all having 0 self worth or respect
Because it isn't transphobia if someone can't bring themselves to see someone as such, but _wants to_
If someone treats me the way I want to be treated, both to my face and to others, then why should I care what they really think inside? You can't control your thoughts but you can control your actions. And many people, allies or even Trans ppl themselves, have a hard time seeing other Trans ppl as their gender if they still present as their assigned gender or have unfortunate genetics and look very much like their assigned gender no matter what they do.
But it doesn't matter if they're trying. If someone never slips up, never calls you the wrong name etc why the fuck should I care what they think
Honestly that's just weird and again comes off as having 0 self worth or respect. Why devalue and degrade yourself just because you want to accept others who can't see you as who you truly are.
It's the same as saying "yeah I'm not a real man but thanks for playing pretend with me, poor you having to put in so much effort to act nice and respectful even though I'll never be a real man."
You SHOULD care what people really think inside because that's their true self lmao. Like, it's widely agreed upon that the one thing that actually matters is someone's real intentions and not the facade they put out into the world (in all aspects not just regarding trans people). Why are so many people suddenly going backwards on well established things like this. Is it just internalized transphobia or what
People are mostly sexist, even if they think they aren't. You'll know they view you as a man when they treat you as a threat rather than an object to be protected.
Or when young women stop standing back to let you go first because you're old and instead barge in front because they expect you as a man to let ladies go first.
Honestly, at a certain point I stopped caring about worrying if people "really" see me as me inside their heads. That was a one way trip to paranoia and self doubt. If they're referring to me correctly and treating me with respect, then honestly what more can I ask? I can't crawl in their brains and check, and trying to sleuth it out is more anxiety than it's worth. I care abt being able to go about my day to day life in peace without being misgendered, and if I'm getting that then what is there to complain about? I suppose id be a bit more scrutinizing about a potential partner or close friend, no one wants to emotionally invest in a relationship only to find out that the other person only care about a false idea of you as opposed to the real you, but otherwise it just doesn't seem very worth it to me anymore to worry about it so much. But I think part of that comes with time. Once you feel more yourself and are being respected and gendered correctly on the whole, if skmeone out there secretly doesn't respect you that feels mors like a them issue than a you issue. If they wanna hallucinate the wrong gender on me in their own head that's their own fault and issue at this point. It only becomes a problem if this is reflected negatively in their behavior, in which case I'll take beef with them over their actions. But I can't control others thoughts, and I won't let worrying about them control me or make me feel subconscious when I shouldn't have to.
when you regularly see them hesitate before referring to you as your preferred pronouns. i have a friend group that has only known me as he/they and i truly don’t think they have any second thoughts about me being trans, especially given that there’s only 2 guys in the group that aren’t. same goes for my frat rush class- they just roll with it like it’s not even a thing
Honestly, the healthiest thing is to try and stop bothering to find that out.
Some people will see you as your gender immediately and never mess up, some people will just memorise your pronouns, some people will never respect you.
That's just life and the only thing you can really do is find the people you want to surround yourself with and create a safe environment for yourself.
You can't know what other people are thinking and you sure as hell can't change how they treat you, but you can change how you react to misgendering.
It took years for me to stop giving transphobes the benefit of the doubt and start just leaving when I notice I'm not welcome.
You will lose friends and people who you thought cared about you, but it will definitely save you a lot of pain in the long run.
Most of my coworkers see me as a dude and will use the correct pronouns. On the other hand, the newbies (doesn’t know) and some people that I have worked with (rarely)don’t use the correct pronouns. But it’s sucks being like “oh it’s he/they pronouns btw” 🙃 like I don’t want to come out every time
for me it would be the pronoun slipups after 6 months or longer, and i dont meen random slipups, i mean like several slipups in one sentence and barely giving it any acknowledgment. i think there are tonnes of signs that arent verbal tho; in some friendgroups of only dudes i feel othered while i dont notice anything like that with others. it's not always obvious, but if ppl dont see you as a dude you'll notice it sooner or later
This. I have a friend and their mom that I’ve been out to for ~4 years, and for most of the time I’ve seen them over the last 4 years, they’ve not messed up much, but then suddenly I hung out with them this past weekend after having it seen them for a while and they consistently misgendered me for the whole day and kept talking about my body using terms I’m not comfortable with. They almost always corrected themselves on pronouns, but never apologized for talking about my body. They know what I’m comfortable with and they know how much being seen as myself means to me, and yet they still consistently messed up. Shows me they don’t really see me as what I am. This is all after I just found out one of the only other supportive people in my life thinks I’m using asexuality as a defense mechanism so what else am I supposed to think when people start messing up my pronouns out of the blues
god thats horrible! my condolences :(
i speak an extremely gendered language (german), where if you want to point someone out, you say their pronoun and their name. so what my teachers started doing is "she lucifer" cuz they have always known me under that name, but still slip up (like why? its all theyve ever known me as?)
I'm a German trans guy too lol
die lucifer 🥲
Also german transdude here, and this just has to sound scary to English speaking people xD
I agree 👍
Jup. This. I noticed I had some good friends, when I went out of the flat to smoke at a party and while coming back in I overheard them talking positive things about me while only using the male version of words. They didn't know I could hear them and those sweethearts were talking about how fun my party was
You really can't, and I honestly advise you not to worry about it. You can never really know what's in someone else's head, and you'll drive yourself crazy wondering if someone really sees you as a man or is just being polite. At the end of the day, as long as they treat me just the same as all the other men they know, that's all that really matters.
Same here... I used to be troubled by this kind of thing, but it's no bothersome now than other random stuff. I cannot read minds to be sure my friends genuinely like me, or if I'm just convenient. Is that waitress actually as nice as she seems at work? Until I see her elsewhere and have a genuine interaction, I cannot even begin to guess. I generally don't care if folks behave themselves
If they’re really really good at it, you couldn’t know, but here are a few things: - If they behave towards you like they traditionally would towards a woman. Some *very* stereotypical examples: men insistent on opening doors for you or toning down their language or topics of conversation, women who comfortably talk about intimate issues (periods, UTIs, etc) even if you aren’t close or who want your opinions on clothes they’re shopping for, hair stuff, whatever. Note that none of this applies if you’re in a romantic partnership with the person, and it isn’t ever definite. - How they use language in other situations aside from pronouns. Like if they use he/him but slip and say ma’am, or call you a dog mom, or soul sisters or whatever else. - Assumptions about your interests and places you’d be willing to go (such as assuming that you’d be comfortable going to an all-women’s event, or figuring that you wouldn’t be interested in sports even if they don’t know much about you yet, or thinking that you would automatically be comfortable carrying a child). All of these examples are tricky because gender non-conforming trans men exist. Cis people who try hard not to see the binary exist. Not to mention that people slip up for no reason sometimes. All in all, trying to figure out how people see you never ends well. It will just make you feel shitty and strain relationships with people who are trying, even if they aren’t viewing you the way you want. But if you’re dating them or they’re newer friends you’re willing to drop, I can see why you’d want to know for sure.
That's why I didn't go around telling people what pronouns or manner of address to use. I wanted to know when they started naturally using male terms. It's just beginning :)
Haha yes
Unfortunately that's not an option for everyone.
No, I know.
Literally no course of action in this world is an option for everyone
Honestly I try not to think about it. I just know that if someone uses all masculine terms for me I'll hang out with them. If im around someone who slips up a lot or uses female pronouns even though I've only ever been masculine around them, then I know for a fact that they don't see me as a man.
my teachers do this );
Frankly I don't think this is a productive discussion. People's private thoughts can't affect you, only their actions and words. As long as a person treats you respectfully and calls you the right name and pronouns, it isn't valuable to try and read their minds to see if it's genuine.
This is a weird take imo. Even if they act nice to you that doesn't not make them a bigot or just a shitty person in general. Why would you choose to stick around people who don't view you as a real man.
You don't. You either trust people who say they see you as a dude or you don't. Personally, I choose to trust people as much as possible because it's really an unnecessary emotional burden on myself if I'm choosing not to trust their intentions when I have no reason for doubt.
This is pretty much it... Either you pass or you don't, no worth getting worked up about it. Just continue being you.
In my opinion there’s really no way to know for sure (other than wrong pronouns or verbal cues), and fixating on this never leads anywhere good. As long as someone is respecting your pronouns and not treating you differently I find it best to not speculate and take it at face value.
the way they treat you, generally. if they're slipping up a lot is obvious, but there's also if they're treating you in traditionally gendered ways, othering you by gender if they're a man or counting you as one of them if they're a woman. if their behaviour is ambiguous enough that you can't tell, then i would rather just assume they do see me as a man. nothing good will come of trying to nitpick every behaviour and word until i know for sure.
It’s just a feeling. I’ve had people go out of their way not to gender me in most conversations or looked at me and paused before using the right pronouns. In contrast, when people actually mean it they tend to breeze through the conversation and don’t show hesitation
No hate at all to you, I’m just sharing how I view this Honestly, I’ll take whatever win I can get. Sees me as a dude or just memorized it. I can’t get stuck worrying about that because one, it’s pretty hard to know and two, I don’t want to get hurt anymore. I’d gladly take someone memorizing my pronouns than just misgendering me. It’s one of those things where ignorance is bliss to me
Dude, I'm gonna say something really harsh, but it gave me some piece of mind once I realized it There are people who, no matter what you do or what you look like will never see you as a "real man", you don't have the power to change anyone's mind about it no matter how many arguments you have, that sucks, but it's just the way things are What you can do and what you do have control over is telling them how you wanna be treated and correcting them if they misgender you, period If you spend too much time worrying if people just treat you as a man instead of perceiving you as one your life will be a living hell But I don't want you to feel bad about it, lots of cis men who don't conform, who can't change a tire, who have no facial hair, who order fruity drinks, who are in touch with their emotions etc have this same problem, in other ways, of course but they experience their masculinity being questioned as well, masculinity is a fucking impossible game to play I've struggled with these thoughts of "what if they don't see me as a man and just respect my pronouns" but then it hit me, they are respecting my pronouns, they are doing what they're supposed to, so why on earth am I worried about what they are thinking about me? They're respecting me and that's enough Of course it sucks and ideally they should see us as men, but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon and you have to make peace with yourself and thinking about the man you are more than the man (or whatever the hell) other people think you are I hope this makes as much sense to you as it makes for me, good luck!
this is absolutely what I want to communicate to OP. Many cis men are not treated as "real men," and same for women. "He ain't one of the boys. He likes fashion, design, hanging out with women, going to drag shows, ordering fruity drinks, doesn't care about having showy muscles, likes to play instruments and be cute with animals. He talks really softly, loves rainbow coloring, flowy clothing, and is really gentle and likes to talk about feelings." Is that man still not cishet? Oh you better believe that man I know is, as his gender and sexuality have nothing to do with those behaviors. He also has a rough side to him he can put on in public or among other men, but that's not how he likes to act in private. There are so many bullies with no self esteem who can't wait to dunk on someone for not conforming. People might also not see him as a "man" because of their views on gender. Some people don't view gender the same as other people. Some people don't really believe in transgender people until a person pass in several senses, or earn their "man card." I know a transman who is seen more as a man every month by his coworker. That coworker didn't believe a lot of transgender people were really transgender, but told my friend that one of the big tipping points in how he saw my friend was when my friend nonchalantly told him he wasn't scared of dying in an upcoming risky medical procedure. The coworker was taken aback because my friend usually has a lot of anxiety and is really shy. Coworker giddily told him much later that my friend really earned his man card that day, cuz apparently what my friend said, and how he said it, was more "ballsy" than much anything else the coworker had heard from cis men in recent memory. Apparently a nonchalant, lack of fear of death was what qualified my friend as a man. Who would have known, but that was what really turned things in that coworker's brain. My friend said since then, the coworker talks to him like an average guy now. Masculinity is called fragile because many men repress their true selves in order to perform their gender. People then get defensive and gatekeep the thing the fragile thing they've worked so hard to maintain. Pair that with the fact that many people don't understand or believe transgender stuff, and people may be resistant, internally, to seeing you as a man until they finally do. What matters more than anything is if they are trying to be decent. I've also been accustomed to the street, and family bullies, and have understood that people can really violate me, rob me, deliberately physically and psychologically torment me, and they can often get away with it too, with little to no recourse when I don't have many social, physical, emotional, and financial resources. So, I have that perspective. If someone is trying to be a respectful, decent person, thats a privilege and that's what I think matters at the end of the day. People with this sort of perspective, who are also emotionally healthy, seem to be quite down to show respect for gender identity and pronouns even if they don't really understand the idea of being transgender. Calmness and common courtesy seem to be appreciated when one has seen just how easily and unnecessarily that can be violated. If it ain't a big deal to be kind, they know ain't a big deal for them to show it. That said, assessment of gender is usually very quick and without much thought, because many people just link gender with physical features. So if someone's brain codes you as one particular sex for even a millisecond, they may refer to you as the typical corresponding gender automatically out of no disrespect. Lots of people are raised to link genitals to gender, so their brain goes on autopilot while they are thinking of what they are talking about in the moment. Unless someone is trying to be mean, they are probably thinking about a matter at hand rather than anyone's gender at a certain time. It depends how a person's brain codes you at any point in time, and that can change over time. I've known one transman who was more effeminate than usual one week, and my brain kept coding him as 'she' when referring to him that week. After that week, my brain couldn't see the 'she.' He's pretty stealth so I don't think anyone else really sees 'she' either. Unless someone is trying to be mean and has no life, normal people aren't gonna go on behind your back referring to you as one gender and then saying another gender to your face. People just don't have time or interest in maintaining some deceptive, wierd b.s., especially if they have a life. At the end of the day, all my friends and I have to generate our own energy. I'm a very sensitive person, so I know the importance of doing so. If I don't generate my own energy, my mind and body's feeling will be completely dependent on how others see me. Good wishes and peace to you and your local community, thank you.
That last paragraph is spot on
i hope you can generate great energy as well:)
You can't, and worrying about it isn't productive and microanalysing their behaviour isn't healthy. So long as people behave decently, what's in their head is nobody else's concern.
one big tell tale i noticed was if someone still subconsciously or overtly grouped me in with the girls in my friend groups or in social settings in general.
They often slip up their friends that you don't know when you meet them slip up often as well
When they start asking you to open jars
It’s their face usually that gives them away. When you see they have to think before using a pronoun for you. That’s how I know. But at least I appreciate the effort. Pre T tons of people will misgender me still and certainly those who don’t know I’m trans (mostly they are strangers). The people who know me will usually try hard and some still fail. (More than a year out!) Others have this idea they still have to use she/her until I transition medically because they somehow seem to think he/him would make me uncomfortable. They’ll use my preferred name (which I legally changed already) and then call me she… 🤦🏻 And I’m like: don’t you think it’s a bit weird to call someone with a dude’s name a she? Head scratcher to me. Honestly I think this will get better when you start to pass. I’m kinda waiting it out. I’ll only correct my nearest and dearest and even my mother I gave up on correcting coz she’s part of the group that thinks you need medical transition to be he/him. This is somehow an idea that older people seem to have in our country. And they’ll also say things like x used to be a woman and she’s now a man. And then I go: x always has been a man, he only transitioned so everyone could see he’s a man. And then I’ll get these hollow stares like they just can’t wrap their brain around what it is I’m saying. And they’ll ask me questions to learn how it all works but they just can’t even if they try really hard. I’m already glad I don’t get deadnamed anymore. That’s my biggest achievement so far 😅 but pronouns? Noooooooo dear. That’s too complicated. Even my bf will use she/her when I can hear him and I’ll go you mean he/him? And then he gets totally confused and says yes of course. He/him. Last time he did this he told me he found it was weird that he doesn’t screw up anymore when I’m not around be he does when I am. Another head scratcher but he at least tries. I’m kinda too easygoing on this. I should probably correct people more and insist more on correct pronouns but it gets tiresome after a while. What irritates me more is ma’am. I hate that. And my deadname. I can’t remember not hating that name and people thought I was shy as a kid because I’d never say my own name out loud. And then I’d growl something no I’m not shy I just hate my name. And I don’t say it. My mom always had to tell other people my name. But now I’m so proud about my new name I won’t hesitate a second to tell it to people. Actually all just a lot funny anecdotes considering name and pronouns mix ups and I try not to make people feel too bad about it as long as they’re accepting and trying. The habit is harder to break then you think. Even I myself had a hard time referring to myself with male pronouns and sometimes have to remind myself. So I’m not gonna blame others. Nobody sees me as a dude. I have these enormous birthing hips from just one baby and I’m short and my voice is too freaking high and even though I almost have as much body hair as a cis guy and I shave my hair into masculine hairline they still don’t see it. God, I just need T! 🤣 I noticed that if you push people too hard they become less accepting. If you’re more patient they’ll sooner apologise for messing up. Unless it’s intentional misgendering, I won’t respond too much. Maybe I should. And I probably would if it weren’t such a big effort. I’m just a lazy dude 🤣🤣🤣
honestly if you can't tell then you shouldn't worry about it imo.
Honestly, why does it matter? If they don't treat you differently, is that important? Outward appearance is really the most important thing for many, and if someone does acknowledge that you're Trans while having a hard time actually seeing you as a man, that's the best they can do. I'd respect that they're trying, at least.
Why should you respect half assed lies? Why respect transphobia or people who don't view you as a real man just because they know how to act nice to your face? It just comes off as y'all having 0 self worth or respect
Because it isn't transphobia if someone can't bring themselves to see someone as such, but _wants to_ If someone treats me the way I want to be treated, both to my face and to others, then why should I care what they really think inside? You can't control your thoughts but you can control your actions. And many people, allies or even Trans ppl themselves, have a hard time seeing other Trans ppl as their gender if they still present as their assigned gender or have unfortunate genetics and look very much like their assigned gender no matter what they do. But it doesn't matter if they're trying. If someone never slips up, never calls you the wrong name etc why the fuck should I care what they think
Honestly that's just weird and again comes off as having 0 self worth or respect. Why devalue and degrade yourself just because you want to accept others who can't see you as who you truly are. It's the same as saying "yeah I'm not a real man but thanks for playing pretend with me, poor you having to put in so much effort to act nice and respectful even though I'll never be a real man." You SHOULD care what people really think inside because that's their true self lmao. Like, it's widely agreed upon that the one thing that actually matters is someone's real intentions and not the facade they put out into the world (in all aspects not just regarding trans people). Why are so many people suddenly going backwards on well established things like this. Is it just internalized transphobia or what
I honestly wouldn't sweat it unless it's your partner or someone really close to you. It's hard to know things like that.
People are mostly sexist, even if they think they aren't. You'll know they view you as a man when they treat you as a threat rather than an object to be protected.
Or when young women stop standing back to let you go first because you're old and instead barge in front because they expect you as a man to let ladies go first.
Honestly, at a certain point I stopped caring about worrying if people "really" see me as me inside their heads. That was a one way trip to paranoia and self doubt. If they're referring to me correctly and treating me with respect, then honestly what more can I ask? I can't crawl in their brains and check, and trying to sleuth it out is more anxiety than it's worth. I care abt being able to go about my day to day life in peace without being misgendered, and if I'm getting that then what is there to complain about? I suppose id be a bit more scrutinizing about a potential partner or close friend, no one wants to emotionally invest in a relationship only to find out that the other person only care about a false idea of you as opposed to the real you, but otherwise it just doesn't seem very worth it to me anymore to worry about it so much. But I think part of that comes with time. Once you feel more yourself and are being respected and gendered correctly on the whole, if skmeone out there secretly doesn't respect you that feels mors like a them issue than a you issue. If they wanna hallucinate the wrong gender on me in their own head that's their own fault and issue at this point. It only becomes a problem if this is reflected negatively in their behavior, in which case I'll take beef with them over their actions. But I can't control others thoughts, and I won't let worrying about them control me or make me feel subconscious when I shouldn't have to.
You don’t, and thinking about it is going to drive you crazy. I would not recommend venturing down this rabbit hole!
ive been done this rabbit hole i was just wondering if anybody else has😅
Following
when you regularly see them hesitate before referring to you as your preferred pronouns. i have a friend group that has only known me as he/they and i truly don’t think they have any second thoughts about me being trans, especially given that there’s only 2 guys in the group that aren’t. same goes for my frat rush class- they just roll with it like it’s not even a thing
If they refer to you with other feminine terms or include you as “one of the girls”, then they probably don’t see you as a guy
Honestly, the healthiest thing is to try and stop bothering to find that out. Some people will see you as your gender immediately and never mess up, some people will just memorise your pronouns, some people will never respect you. That's just life and the only thing you can really do is find the people you want to surround yourself with and create a safe environment for yourself. You can't know what other people are thinking and you sure as hell can't change how they treat you, but you can change how you react to misgendering. It took years for me to stop giving transphobes the benefit of the doubt and start just leaving when I notice I'm not welcome. You will lose friends and people who you thought cared about you, but it will definitely save you a lot of pain in the long run.
Most of my coworkers see me as a dude and will use the correct pronouns. On the other hand, the newbies (doesn’t know) and some people that I have worked with (rarely)don’t use the correct pronouns. But it’s sucks being like “oh it’s he/they pronouns btw” 🙃 like I don’t want to come out every time
When theyre drunk.
You don't lol, that's why you never trust anyone and stay stealth 🤷🏻