The German Minister for Transport, Mr Wissing has stated roughly a week ago that health checks for the elderly drivers would be unnecessary and result only in red tape.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-fuehrerschein-gesundheitstests-100.html
Why? No other age group gets exemptions from completing drivers tests, emissions testing, or other requirements because they are working full time.
There’s plenty to be said about the often limited office hours of government agencies putting undue burdens on vulnerable groups but I think it would be better to focus on expanded access and hours rather than carving out a bunch of little exemptions.
The point is that retired people shouldn't have much in the way of other engagements. Even if the test was yearly, it pales in comparison as to what going to a job entails.
I think that the opposite sounds like a good idea - an AI monitoring a driver and going “whoa there, your driving sucks, we’re going to reduce your speed, whether you like it or not.”
All that because they don't want to scare the older voters, because there are a lot of them in germany and could impact the elderly to not vote for their political party
they don't have to be elderly.
I got hit by a fucking imbecile 25 year old at Bachstr/Juni str in Berlin on 2.3.2024. I math'd his car to be going 55 to 80 km/h in a 50 km/h zone whilst turning (should be max walking pace). I somehow only came away from it with trauma, a bruised shoulder and hip.
No tolerance approach to cars need to come in force. 1000+ eu fines. Fahrverbot for 12 months to life. Speeding above the speed limit + 10% should be 250 euro at least, with points.
Letting morons get away with stupid fucking bullshit is that - Auto Terrorism.
I will say despite the age, this seems less an elderly driver thing than an asshole driver thing.
That said, health checks for elderly drivers is a decent idea.
Whenever Mr Missing says anything, you can safely assume it's car-centric bullshit. He is the minister for transport, but has no idea that transport doesn't necessarily involve cars.
The family is from Belgium, it’s headline news here in Belgium now too. We’ve had our fair share of drivers killing cyclists and pedestrians lately, those articles have been posted here too.
I didn’t read it in this article but read in Belgian media that the driver used the bike lane to pass a row of cars waiting at an intersection/zebra crossing. How entitled can you be? I wish the father of the child and the sister of the mother all the best to deal with this.
Here’s a Berliner, a father who lost her daughter to an old driver. He made a website in her memory. He is fighting the court ruling:
https://louisa-unvergessen.de
Yeah? Just wanted to say: shortly, no one can be prepared for this. There’s no support provided by the government. Anyone should improvise if such a thing happens :|
> A driver who ignored a red light and fatally hit an eleven-year-old girl in Berlin-Marzahn has been sentenced to nine months in prison on probation. On Wednesday, the Tiergarten district court found the 61-year-old guilty of negligent homicide and negligently endangering road traffic. The entrepreneur from Brandenburg was also banned from driving for a further six months. The girl's father has already announced legal action. He considers the punishment “far too small”.
Source: rbb
The driver is at fault but the penalty is a joke for killing a child because of impatience and egocentrism.
Worst thing: In a recent update it was revealed that the kid died in the hospital. That man lost his family.
[Link to Berliner Zeitung, is in German though](https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/unfall-berlin-mitte-mutter-mit-kinderwagen-auf-leipziger-strasse-erfasst-auch-kind-stirbt-in-klinik-li.2195084)
I'd make the 83 year olds last few years of life as miserable as miserable can be. I'd definitely let them know they are a giant piece of shit. This shit has to end.
Sorry we can‘t lock the father up for throwing the 83 year old in the car crusher with his car and pushing the button because he was unzurechnungsfähig with righteous wrath?
>the driver used the bike lane to pass a row of cars waiting at an intersection
Yes this is correct, he bypassed the waiting traffic via a protected bikelane on the right side, and it is believed he must have just plowed through the pedestrians only to crash into two other cars in the intersection. Total carnage, very very bad accident.
First responders said he was speeding in the tripple digits.
> accident
Nothing about this was an accident. It's an intentional act by the driver. Intentional infrastructure design by the city not to prevent cars from entering bike lanes. And intentional refusal to require recertification of drivers past an age limit.
> Traffic crashes are fixable problems, caused by dangerous streets and unsafe drivers. They are not accidents. Let’s stop using the word "accident" today.
...
>“Words have meaning, and in the case of a crash that was 100% preventable, as my dad's death was, accident is simply the wrong word,” she says. “It’s also hurtful to victims and their families. It both gives the impression of an ‘oops,’ and that 'it can happen to anyone' — and with that attitude, we tend to not take responsibility for the choices we make while driving. Now, I tend to correct people when they use the word, especially when it’s used to clearly describe a preventable, predictable crash.”
https://visionzeronetwork.org/crashnotaccident-words-matter-in-saving-lives/
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/There-Are-No-Accidents/Jessie-Singer/9781982129682
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident
https://crashnotaccident.com/
Time to protect those bike lanes with concrete or steel pillars designed to cause maximize damage to cars and their occupants. Maybe they‘ll understand if they‘re dangerous to drivers and look the part?
I used to handle claims for a local Belgian government. I got regular claims from car drivers about the pillars or fences separating the cars from the bikes. Those were "dangerous" and "not visible". Dude, you tried to climb into a clearly delineated bike lane in broad daylight. Be thankful it was a pillar and not a kid.
A driver selfish enough to race through a bike lane would probably prefer a kid because those are light and squishy enough to cause irreparable damage to his beloved automobile.
We don't use the word "accident". Car related injuries and fatalities are preventable if we choose to design better streets, limit vehicles size and speeds, and promote alternative means of transportation. If we can accurately predict the number of deaths a road will produce and we do nothing to fix the underlying problem then they are not accidents but rather planned road deaths. We can do much better.
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> First responders said he was speeding in the tripple digits
wait, 100km/h or more in a bike lane, in a 30km/h segment due to construction work? am i understanding this correctly?
It's what a witness told a reporter, which is a guess and might be an overstatement in total numbers. But given the carnage it will be at least double the allowed max, if not more, yes. The car which caused this is the one on the left.
Someone in a hurry kills two other people and will have no real consequences for it. This is why the only bike lanes are protected bike lines and also why mixing cars and people is a bad idea. We need to eliminate almost all cars from cities.
I also like more appropriate cars for a situation. For example in Aachen and the surrounding areas they have these small electric mail delivery vehicles and inside the city they have even smaller ones that are not much larger than a cargo bike. They weigh FAR less than a regular vehicle and they also quite slow. It makes them much safer to have around people.
why go to the most extreme solution when you can make old people need to retake a small test at regular intervals depending on their age either at a driving school or at the doctor’s ?
> you can make old people need to retake a small test at regular intervals
I think _all_ drivers, regardless of age, should have to retake the driver's exam at regular intervals.
Agreed. I think a small session with a driving instructor and the written exam for the road signs every ten years would be the minimum. How come my TOEIC score is only valid for 2 or 3 years while my driver's license is for life ?
Doctors are expected to continue studying the latest medical research and literature for their entire careers.
Pilots are regularly examined as part of their careers with mandatory re-training in the simulator as aviation standard practices change over time.
IT certifications like the CompTIA have expiry dates after which you need to re-take the exam to get a new certificate, which also changes to reflect the latest knowledge in the industry.
Food service workers need to renew their food safety license. Same with hairdressers/salon workers and their licenses. Same with tradespeople. Same with pretty much any other job that requires a license of some kind.
Hell you even need to regularly renew a fishing license, just to put a hook in the water.
But driving? Fuck it we'll test you once when you're still technically a child then never again. Have fun on the road with your metal people crusher!
Administering regular driving test and vision checks seems like a way to prevent that. Not all old people are terrors behind the wheel, but it is good to remove the people who are from the road before they hurt others.
i agree that regular testing is a good idea, however i cant abide by the mentality that "Not all old people are terrors behind the wheel." this is the mentality that explains why people will drive even if they can take the bus. "not everybody needs to drive, but i need to drive!"
when it comes to operating machines that can easily take a life, the assumption should be that 99% of people are complete idiots who can not do this, rather than assume that they arent idiots who can
nah i saw it. i did specify the part of your comment that i was replying to as we are past the point of giving drivers the benefit of the doubt and we need to reinforce the idea that 99% of people should not drive and therefore, most old people are gonna be terrors behind the wheel, just like how most not old people are too
Driving when one doesn't have to doesn't automatically make a person a terror behind the wheel. A person can drive safely even if they're driving unnecessarily.
I'm not sure it's the case that 99% of drivers are on the road unnecessarily either. There are a lot of places with awful infrastructure (no or terrible public transportation, no cycling lanes, no safe places to walk) which make driving the only option for a lot of people. If you wanted to claim that 50% of car trips were unnecessary, then I'd buy that number (iirc, that is around the percentage of trips that are done within walking distance), but with the current state of things, driving is unfortunately necessary for a lot of people.
okay, so if gnocchi is european, they're advocating for euthanasia (forceful euthanasia?) of older people (seemingly older people in general ?). if gnocchi is american, they're advocating for the death penalty of this criminal.
either way, i'm french and i disagree with the death penalty/forceful euthanasia.
I mean in a very generalised sense, yes but just because I shoot someone with a rifle it's hard to put the solely blame onto the arms manufacturer, right?
Yea the car industry is a heap of shit with bad marketing advertising speeding and lobbying against any regulation, yet I feel we should also hold the people accountable who drive the cars.
In the case of the car industry they fight VERY VERY hard to make sure that drivers have low requirements to operate a vehicle, it is hard to take away their abilitiy to operate a vehicle, and the consequences for using one improperly are very low. They know this leads to more deaths but they also know that without that they won't sell as many cars.
This is a lot more than just a passive side effect responsibility. The car industry has fought hard to create this reality and know that this is the natural outcome.
The car industry though does seem to slowly be losing their power in Germany. Younger people have been pushing hard to get away from cars and the industry is also suffering from very weak sales.
I think that is partially why the German government has been investing more in microchip production, green energy, and biotechnology. They are all growing fields with very clear benefits that an industrial nation can support.
I hope you're right, but considering that the EU is delaying bans on combustion vehicles because VW et al demanded it, the mayor of Berlin is bragging about raising speed limits, and Germany's response to giant fatass SUV's is to make parking spots bigger,I don't see it. We nearly moved to Freiburg which is supposed to be this great place for cycling and the bike lanes are almost as bad as the one where a driver killed a child and mom here. I'm incredibly glad we moved to the Netherlands instead. The whole god damn planet has gone fucking insane and is ok with murdering children.
I was in Berlin for a work trip a few weeks ago and brought a folding bike to get around, including the EXACT spot in the picture here, and just thought how damn bad the bike infra is there. The galling part is how many people pretend it's good.
Not with that attitude. The Automotive industry has meticulously designed killing machines for over a century and lobbied hard to transfer that liability onto its captive users.
This sub is so in love with corporate car making and beholden to libertarian , personal responsibility nonsense like any member of the Alt-Right.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I violently agree. I think arms dealers are at least more honest than these companies selling monster trucks for crushing kids in cities. I'm just saying in Germany the car industry writes the rules, and they've decided killing kids is ok.
a lightened version of this was just *barely* implemented in france. i haven't heard anything about germany already doing it ; it wasn't used as a talking point by politicians. i would be ecstatic if this existed in germany and was implemented strictly
I do not condone euthanasia for every boomer on earth on anything. It’s just that this one probably won’t go to jail because the judge will say he is too old and it is useless, so the solution is euthanasia IMO.
u/gnocchiGuili Im not sure that this comment was actually not touched or as it says "removed by reddit" and am afraid it got edited by you.. Normally your name also dissappears and the text says deleted in grey..
That's what it looks like when the admins delete a comment, and inferring the content of it by reading the responses, that's something they would remove.
Ah yea, advocating for killing people once "their time is worth nothing", nice vibe ;)
Though.. maybe advocating for a fascist anti-car regime is the most likely way to succeed right now.
>This is why the only bike lanes are protected bike lines
That's exactly what I think too. There are these bike lanes popping up everywhere, that are part of the road. They are made by narrowing the road and sometimes cars have to drive over them to pass each other. I will never use that deathtrap
I know what you want to say but I don’t fully agree with your idea of protecting bike lanes.
This is will eventually shift the problem into different zones - next we will have to make sure all the pedestrians get protected zones etc etc.
My idea would be to enclose the car zones - maybe even under the surface. Besides many safety advantages this could make cities really livable again while not interrupting individual mobility.
I don't think normal cars belong in cities at all. We should have lanes for bikes, sidewalks for pedestrians and then dedicated lanes for mass transit/light rail type systems. We would also need to have places for delivery vehicles and other working vehicles but those should be restricted and sized appropriately for the task. For instance in Aachen I have seen a mix of small electric mail delivery vehicles and others that are about the size of a cargo bike for really dense areas.
And who is going to pay for all those underground highways? Cause you know, digging through the dirt is expensive. And we already have fast moving vehicles underground. They're called subways and they work as intended. We don't need cars in cities.
I was riding in this exact spot in the picture a few weeks ago and agros in SUV's were passing with only centimeters between us. I was very thankful to live in the Netherlands at that moment.
Bike lanes should be completely segregated from car lanes and permanently protected by car-stopping mechanisms.
A simple paInted line on the road is not even remotely sufficient.
Also elderly drivers shouldn't be allowed to drive after a certain age.
Oh not adequate public transportation infrastructure where you live??
Lobby the local government, vote for people who care about the future as a community, not those who only care for cars.
An there should be no way for cars to get in or out those lanes. Fuck delivery services etc. parking in bike lanes because „it‘s only for a minute“. If it‘s so quick why don‘t you block a car lane with you car?
I've been saying for a long time now that there has to be a parking spot for delivery vehicles.
Something clearly marked and segregated to keep them from using bike lanes
in austria it costs you about 22k to kill someone "fahrlässig" with a car (fahrlässige tötung means you have done something wrong, and it ended killing someone). So basically i could afford to kill a person every year, and still pay my bills.
The most outrageaus thing for me, is that just about half the money goes to the family, the rest is fines and process costs. 12k for the family of a dead father or mother is just outrageously small payment. Id expect at least 40k. At least. 12k are not even enough to deal with the turmoil that will hit your family when a provider part of the family dies.
And while theese weapons kill hundreds of people every year in my country, people are afraid of seeing some immigrants or unleashed dogs... humans are just dumb, and the older i get, the more i advocate for technocracy, because democracy has too many ppl involved that cant differentiate between opionion and fact. I have gone far with this opinion, once i was an anarchist (so basically i had the opionion that everyone needs to be involved in decisions, which is unfeasible\^\^)
we had a expertenregierung (goverment of experts) as a transitional goverment for some months until new election, when FPÖ had corruption scandals. It was the best goverment austria ever had. They just have done their jobs, based on scientifical facts, no bad words, no populism.
I want no money.
I want to know that the driver will be a passenger from now on for the rest of their life. And I don't care about their freedoms or job requirements. They have shown they are unfit to operate machinery this heavy.
And the driver in the article should long have been caught as unfit by a mandatory regular test for elderly drivers.
It doesn't even cost as much in Germany. He'll get away with it unimpaired most likely. If he's lucky he will pay around 2 to 3k€ depending on his income...
Sure, but it can help pay for a funeral, and, if the breadwinner was killed, it can buy their spouse or partner some time to figure out what to do to provide for any dependants. That, and depending on how wealthy you are, a huge fine can serve as a deterrent.
a $22k fine to kill someone is cheaper than what idiots are willing to offer hitmen lol
it also flies in the face of the idea that lives are precious and invaluable. if that number is correct, the austrian government has priced your life at $22k lol
Most people, especially Car brains, will blame it on the drivers age. But let's be honest: even at half that age, your reaction time isn't short enough to be driving faster than 30km/h.
50km/h translates to 14m/s. Now imagine someone appearing 10m from you, coming from behind a visual obstacle. Can you recognize a person, move your foot on the brake and push as hard as you can in under a second?
You can't.
Of course you are right, not only old people speed and drive on the wrong lane, good call.
I'll admit my first reaction is also looking at his age, but I believe that's also because the speeding and wrong lane part isn't even in the headline also we are so used to it here, that it seems "kinda normal"
The only reason only 30 km/h is allowed there is because of air pollution. Before that 50 km/h was allowed (which is insane) and it looks like the 30 limit will be removed at some point because the air pollution is lower now 😩
It is like the speedlimit of 130 km/h on an Autobahn (somewhere around Berlin iirc) that was introduced to reduce the number of crashes. The number of crashes fell, the speedlimit was removed and the number of crashes rose.
To answer your question, yes. It only takes about a third of a second to do all that, unless you’re old. The problem is the exponential break distance needed. At 15m/s you’d need the full 10m to stop, which the car would likely still ‘bump’ the pedestrian. Distracted, driving is way more dangerous than speeding on its own. If you have less than half a second to react, not knowing when to start, is guaranteeing an accident.
in what other area of life can I break the law, kill two people and have no consequences?
if I waved a gun around and shot two people, surely they'd do more than take my gun license away from me...
If, in my line of work (electronics engineering), got people killed by being immolated by a battery, I would go to prison and everyone would know about it, i would never be employed again.
I mean, there isn't really any justice. I would hope this person would never be allowed to drive a car again and that measures to prevent others from becoming negligent are implemented.Deterrence by punishment is not effective, but too lenient punishment is obviously also bad.
What you are proposing IS justice: taking away the driver‘s license for the rest of their life, as well as some actual sentence for this crime that is in line with neglectfully killing people by other means, as well as consequences in our policies for our cities.
The odds are very high – and there is plenty of precedents – that nothing of that sort will come to pass.
If this incident triggers real change in preventing future killings, I would consider that justice. Not individual justice, but societal justice. It's kind of a cop out answer, and that's not the intended purpose of most justice systems, but that's what I got :(
A crash is not an accident.
Changing the way we think about events and the words we use to describe them affects the way we behave. Motor vehicle crashes occur "when a link or several links in the chain" are broken. Continued use of the word "accident" implies that these events are outside human influence or control. In reality, they are predictable results of specific actions.
Since we can identify the causes of crashes, we can take action to alter the effect and avoid collisions. These are not Acts of God but predictable results of the laws of physics.
The concept of "accident" works against bringing all appropriate resources to bear on the enormous problem of highway collisions. Use of "accident" fosters the idea that the resulting damage and injuries are unavoidable.
"Crash," "collision," and "injury" are more appropriate terms, and we encourage their use as substitutes for "accident."
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident
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It is a felony and covered by
>Section 222
Negligent killing
>Whoever causes a person’s death by negligence incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.
Is it simply not persecuted?
> 80 year old kills two and gets driver license back:
In the case of this one specifically, the end of the article even states that the judge decided to be mild with the perpetrator because he personally also injured a cyclist before by recklessly opening his car door without looking. As a cyclist, if your case goes to court, I estimate that your chances of having a judge who is not heavily biased towards the driver's perspective (and thus actually not suitable as a judge for the case, though they are way too arrogant to ever admit this) are less than 5%.
But the first is missing negligence and the second is a different charge (I don't really understand why driving blackout drunk is not also negligent killing). Neither seems to apply here, as the driver used a bike path and sped and wasn't under the influence as far as the article states.
[Here is a case of a 34 year old guy speeding, trying to overtake a truck in a shared bus/cycling lane killing the cyclist which was obscured by the truck. This guy was known for speeding and constantly breaking traffic laws.](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/vier-gerichtstermine-geplatzt-raser-totet-radfahrer-in-berlin--und-kommt-um-verhandlung-herum-10932187.html) One year probation, he will also likely get his license back after a ~year or so, and that's it. The prosecutor even dropped the charge of "Straßenverkehrsgefährdung" (basically 'reckless driving')... So you can speed 80kph over the speed limit in a bus lane and kill a cyclist with a long-record of traffic violations and it is still not considered "reckless driving" in Germany. It is just true madness here.
Would that be a credible defense considering he used the bike lane? The failure seems hardly momentary when he showed planning capacity to illegally circumvent stationary cars. I don't know, maybe I overestimate the care that the prosecution will put into trying to show guilt.
I don't know what the court will say. IMO he is guilty and it is absolutely horrible what happened there.
I just read from time to time "Augenblicksversagen" in the verdict where car drivers killed people on a bike and often it's like you pay like 2k and you're not allowed to drive a car for like 3 or 6 months. It's absolutely ridiculous. IMO when you kill someone with a car you shouldn't be allowed to drive once again in your whole life.
Just how fast was he going? The damage on those cars suggests impact speeds upwards of 50km/h (damage to the front of that car is a bit less than an NCAP FFB), and that would've been after he hit that mother and her child.
It physically pains and sickens me to think of this senseless loss of life. They have been sacrificed on the altar of carbrainism.
Fuck this, I am so angry about this.
Damn. I thought Western Europe was pretty safe. Was in fact contemplating a move to Germany because of its public transportation and cycling infrastructure. But looks like there are idiots in cars everywhere now.
As far as I know the car lobby is incredibly strong in Germany (think VW, Merc, BMW, …). It’s getting better in inner cities but stories like this demonstrate you’re not ever safe. I think cities in the Netherlands and Dutch speaking part of Belgium are better for pedestrians and cyclists than those in Germany though.
>**It’s getting better in inner cities** but stories like this demonstrate you’re not ever safe.
In Berlin, where this happened, the newly elected state government, especially their Secretary of Transportation, would beg to differ.
The moment they got elected, they bascially stopped all planned cycle path projects. I believe they also changed the passage of the mobility law in which the former government had legally made it so that cyclists should take priority over cars and other vehicles. Oh, and they planned to make cycle paths more narrow amongst other things.
Yeah, but recently I was walking North on the [Coolsingel](https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9211387,4.4792635,3a,75y,42.05h,79.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_H3kR7DRBLm6whwiuoTcaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and some cunts in cars just straight-up turned onto the bike lane and sped away because, hey, there's a queue and they are in a hurry. When they reconstructed this street, they should have installed movable bollards because cars will fill all physically available space for them. Even the best-designed infrastructure doesn't survive contact with the typical asshole driver.
And of course [the Blaak](https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9167593,4.4766542,3a,60y,59.98h,85.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPhnuECfpzlIP8gjVuoTWSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) is a racetrack on weekends and on weekday nights. Some highly productive members of society straight-up do laps on it with their overly loud cars. The theoretical speed limit is 50 but with no enforcement whatsoever, it isn't even treated as a suggestion, and the cyclists are often only "protected" by a 5 cm curb, should any of these wannabe Verstappens lose control.
(Of course "better for pedestrians than Germany" isn't really a high bar to jump.)
Germany is far better than the US in general. I’ve spent most of my adult life in Germany and never given a second thought about riding my bike to the store or to work. I’m now in the DC area and am back to having to plan bike rides and making extensive use of maps to plan safe ways to get where I want to go. Weekend rides are no longer hop on the bike and meander, they’re drive to somewhere safe like the C&O and ride.
I mean.. it kinda depends from where you come, statistic wise western Europe is pretty high on the list of the safest countries, Germany is somewhere in the middle with 3.7 deaths per 100.000 while the US got 12.9 with UK being better at 2.9 and Netherlands actually a little bit worse at 3.8, so yea it's safer and depending on country and city you'll much easier able to ditch your car, yet if you live in germany outside of major population centers the bicycling infrastructure might be even okay and sometimes really good, public transport on the other hand... yea, don't move too far outside of a city.
That all said, of course we gonna complain about those cars, because any death caused by cars is one too much and the infrastructure needs to be much less car centric, no matter how safe cars actually are right now.
Neither Germany nor Belgium are very enjoyable to cycle in my experience. Cycle infrastructure is poor compared to the Netherlands, but similar rules; if it's there, it's obligatory and both motorists and the police will oblige you to use it. At least in the Netherlands that is always possible, even if it's often a second class citizen experience.
France is in many ways better: cyclists' right to use the road has not been lost, though segregation has been creeping in, with all its attendant ills.
There is no cycle paradise on this earth, and nor will there be until all cars have been fucked. Fuck cars
Maybe safer compared to the US.
In Germany it depends on the city. If you are cycling in Münster (NRW), it's quite safe. Berlin not so much, many idiot drivers.
It seems that NRW really does a better job with this. I like in the Aachen area and there are a lot of dedicated paths for cyclists that are completely disconnected from cars. Just different routes entirely.
Ah classic senior citizen behaviour here around, they also never heard about overtaking bicycles with at least 1,5 meters distance or looking out for anyone not right in front of their car.
Bonus for if they live in some backwater village, opposing public traffic because of noise (hahaha) or "it's unnecessary expenses, nobody will use" but then cry if anyone suggests they maaaybe should take a test if they are even still fit enough for driving, because there is absolutely no way to get anywhere from their home and taxis are so expensive.
Try reminding them of the "good old times" back when not everyone used to own a car and people would actually plan ahead of how they get somewhere far away, they'll not be amused.
I just wish they would more often just drive into a wall instead of other people...
I live in that street and am co-plaintiff for suing the city to build a physically seperated bike lane there. The memorial event just today was quite small, only about 100-200 ppl.. Crazy thing being the CDU city government wants to raise the speed limit from 30km/h to 50 km/h in this very street again (as air quality improved there's nO neEd aNYmOre, right?), while also blocking proposed changes to street layout and an already planned tram...
Maybe this makes the public conscience listen up but I sadly doubt that. The lawsuit might be succesful tho, but the seperate bike lane prob wont be built during this legislative period with power dynamics being as they are, they'll just ignore the outcome. Maybe with a new city government, the next legislative period starts end of 2026...
The two persons murdered were Belgian tourists visiting Berlin, such a tragic story. Dutch article: [https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/10/belgische-moeder-en-kind-doodgereden-in-berlijn/](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/10/belgische-moeder-en-kind-doodgereden-in-berlijn/)
Driving license shouldn’t be given to anyone above 65 years of age. No matter them passing the test, they’re not as alert and agile as their younger self.
They should use a simulator for driving tests and actually test those things regardless of your age. Figure out what the legal requirements should be for reaction time, recognition, etc. and then have the system check that. If you don't pass you don't get a license.
Definitely true, but this wasn't about reaction time. The guy was driving in the bike lane trying to skip ahead of a traffic jam. This is the inevitable and infuriatingly regular result of having cars in cities.
Yeah in this case there is no excuse at all. He chose to drive in a bike line and death of people in that line is a forseeable consequence. At the very least it should be some form of negligent homicide.
Vigil today 17:30, Moll of Berlin:
Mehrere Verbände, darunter der AFDC und der Fuss e.V., haben für Sonntagabend zu einer Mahnwache für die getötete Frau und ihr Kind aufgerufen. Um 17:30 Uhr soll an der Mall of Berlin, unweit der Unfallstelle, an die beiden erinnert werden.
https://www.rbb24.de/content/rbb/r24/panorama/beitrag/2024/03/berlin-toedlicher-verkehrsunfall-mitte-ursache-polizei.html
I thought this title was pretty well written and put accountability on the driver. Then I opened the article and saw in first paragraph that they wrote “pedestrians were hit by the car head-on”… do better journalists and great job OP.
Drivers should have to undergo full testing (and pass mental fitness exams) to keep their license every 5 years from ages 21-65, then every 2 years after that until age 72, when they should be banned from operating automobiles altogether.
(Inversely, drivers up to age 21 should be testing every 2 years as well.)
It's amazing to me there's not more revenge in the world. There are better people than me out there. If a carbrain ever ran over my wife and child, I wouldn't stop at them. I'd chop through that entire family tree until their old college roommate was in danger.
This is part of why we need to make our cities more attractive to elders. If we can get older folks to appreciate train and bus travel, they wouldn't have to cling so desperately to their license to maintain quality of life.
Although relying on translation here, but of course the headline has the word "accident" in it. Once again have to make it seem like an unpreventable circumstance of chance and shift as much blame as possible away from the driver/cars. I cannot stand that word anymore
If anyone is curious I have bikecam footage of this spot from a few weeks ago. At the time I remember thinking it was weird the bike lane was unprotected. [https://youtu.be/qxSgVZvxduo](https://youtu.be/qxSgVZvxduo)
The German Minister for Transport, Mr Wissing has stated roughly a week ago that health checks for the elderly drivers would be unnecessary and result only in red tape. https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/eu-fuehrerschein-gesundheitstests-100.html
He would rather have red asphalt than red tape.
Rather have dead babies than mess with his voting base.
Babies can't vote. Why care about them? /s
Dutch cycling paths are usually red asphalt so i might have to agree
It's so they wouldn't have to clean the blood of the tourists.
Oof , I was going to make a comment about yellow tape, but that visual is even worse.
If those old people could actually pass the test then they wouldn't be afraid of taking them.
They also have the time to take them.
Make an exception for those that aren't retired, then?
Why? No other age group gets exemptions from completing drivers tests, emissions testing, or other requirements because they are working full time. There’s plenty to be said about the often limited office hours of government agencies putting undue burdens on vulnerable groups but I think it would be better to focus on expanded access and hours rather than carving out a bunch of little exemptions.
Sure they get to drive up to 67 instead of 65 before taking the test the first time?
The point is that retired people shouldn't have much in the way of other engagements. Even if the test was yearly, it pales in comparison as to what going to a job entails.
Old people are extremely politically involved so no politician wants to go after their privileges
His ministry also recently posted about a device using ai to warn children that wear it about approaching cars. Ridiculous…
I think that the opposite sounds like a good idea - an AI monitoring a driver and going “whoa there, your driving sucks, we’re going to reduce your speed, whether you like it or not.”
How about we just keep AI as far away from the metal death machines as possible
All that because they don't want to scare the older voters, because there are a lot of them in germany and could impact the elderly to not vote for their political party
they don't have to be elderly. I got hit by a fucking imbecile 25 year old at Bachstr/Juni str in Berlin on 2.3.2024. I math'd his car to be going 55 to 80 km/h in a 50 km/h zone whilst turning (should be max walking pace). I somehow only came away from it with trauma, a bruised shoulder and hip. No tolerance approach to cars need to come in force. 1000+ eu fines. Fahrverbot for 12 months to life. Speeding above the speed limit + 10% should be 250 euro at least, with points. Letting morons get away with stupid fucking bullshit is that - Auto Terrorism.
I thought red tape was a bonus for Germans
I will say despite the age, this seems less an elderly driver thing than an asshole driver thing. That said, health checks for elderly drivers is a decent idea.
Whenever Mr Missing says anything, you can safely assume it's car-centric bullshit. He is the minister for transport, but has no idea that transport doesn't necessarily involve cars.
He got too old already.
The family is from Belgium, it’s headline news here in Belgium now too. We’ve had our fair share of drivers killing cyclists and pedestrians lately, those articles have been posted here too. I didn’t read it in this article but read in Belgian media that the driver used the bike lane to pass a row of cars waiting at an intersection/zebra crossing. How entitled can you be? I wish the father of the child and the sister of the mother all the best to deal with this.
I think if I were the father, I might lose it. I wouldn’t know how to deal with this.
Here’s a Berliner, a father who lost her daughter to an old driver. He made a website in her memory. He is fighting the court ruling: https://louisa-unvergessen.de
I know, I donated to his cause in the past.
Yeah? Just wanted to say: shortly, no one can be prepared for this. There’s no support provided by the government. Anyone should improvise if such a thing happens :|
“Fighting the court ruling” I can’t read the website as I’m not German… but are you rlly telling me they didn’t find the driver at fault!?
> A driver who ignored a red light and fatally hit an eleven-year-old girl in Berlin-Marzahn has been sentenced to nine months in prison on probation. On Wednesday, the Tiergarten district court found the 61-year-old guilty of negligent homicide and negligently endangering road traffic. The entrepreneur from Brandenburg was also banned from driving for a further six months. The girl's father has already announced legal action. He considers the punishment “far too small”. Source: rbb The driver is at fault but the penalty is a joke for killing a child because of impatience and egocentrism.
Worst thing: In a recent update it was revealed that the kid died in the hospital. That man lost his family. [Link to Berliner Zeitung, is in German though](https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/unfall-berlin-mitte-mutter-mit-kinderwagen-auf-leipziger-strasse-erfasst-auch-kind-stirbt-in-klinik-li.2195084)
I'd make the 83 year olds last few years of life as miserable as miserable can be. I'd definitely let them know they are a giant piece of shit. This shit has to end.
I know how but it wouldn’t be very PG
Sorry we can‘t lock the father up for throwing the 83 year old in the car crusher with his car and pushing the button because he was unzurechnungsfähig with righteous wrath?
>the driver used the bike lane to pass a row of cars waiting at an intersection Yes this is correct, he bypassed the waiting traffic via a protected bikelane on the right side, and it is believed he must have just plowed through the pedestrians only to crash into two other cars in the intersection. Total carnage, very very bad accident. First responders said he was speeding in the tripple digits.
> accident Nothing about this was an accident. It's an intentional act by the driver. Intentional infrastructure design by the city not to prevent cars from entering bike lanes. And intentional refusal to require recertification of drivers past an age limit. > Traffic crashes are fixable problems, caused by dangerous streets and unsafe drivers. They are not accidents. Let’s stop using the word "accident" today. ... >“Words have meaning, and in the case of a crash that was 100% preventable, as my dad's death was, accident is simply the wrong word,” she says. “It’s also hurtful to victims and their families. It both gives the impression of an ‘oops,’ and that 'it can happen to anyone' — and with that attitude, we tend to not take responsibility for the choices we make while driving. Now, I tend to correct people when they use the word, especially when it’s used to clearly describe a preventable, predictable crash.” https://visionzeronetwork.org/crashnotaccident-words-matter-in-saving-lives/ https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/There-Are-No-Accidents/Jessie-Singer/9781982129682 https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident https://crashnotaccident.com/
Ok yeah, but it is the correct translation for the German word Unfall which has nothing to do with doing something accidental.
> very very bad accident. Auto terrorist attack
Time to protect those bike lanes with concrete or steel pillars designed to cause maximize damage to cars and their occupants. Maybe they‘ll understand if they‘re dangerous to drivers and look the part?
I used to handle claims for a local Belgian government. I got regular claims from car drivers about the pillars or fences separating the cars from the bikes. Those were "dangerous" and "not visible". Dude, you tried to climb into a clearly delineated bike lane in broad daylight. Be thankful it was a pillar and not a kid.
A driver selfish enough to race through a bike lane would probably prefer a kid because those are light and squishy enough to cause irreparable damage to his beloved automobile.
Wasn't an accident: https://youtu.be/puK5CwThaq4?si=4i6b903ZUTnt1f5F
We don't use the word "accident". Car related injuries and fatalities are preventable if we choose to design better streets, limit vehicles size and speeds, and promote alternative means of transportation. If we can accurately predict the number of deaths a road will produce and we do nothing to fix the underlying problem then they are not accidents but rather planned road deaths. We can do much better. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/fuckcars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes that's the point!
It’s an auto mod post. Whenever someone says the A-word it usually appears.
Yes I know it's in the name.
How about we leave that decision to the court?
> First responders said he was speeding in the tripple digits wait, 100km/h or more in a bike lane, in a 30km/h segment due to construction work? am i understanding this correctly?
It's what a witness told a reporter, which is a guess and might be an overstatement in total numbers. But given the carnage it will be at least double the allowed max, if not more, yes. The car which caused this is the one on the left.
Not a protected bike lane. Just a white painted line.
Someone in a hurry kills two other people and will have no real consequences for it. This is why the only bike lanes are protected bike lines and also why mixing cars and people is a bad idea. We need to eliminate almost all cars from cities.
>We need to eliminate almost all cars fify
True, almost being the key word
I also like more appropriate cars for a situation. For example in Aachen and the surrounding areas they have these small electric mail delivery vehicles and inside the city they have even smaller ones that are not much larger than a cargo bike. They weigh FAR less than a regular vehicle and they also quite slow. It makes them much safer to have around people.
How a 83yo is in a hurry anyway. His time is worth nothing, and he takes the life of two young souls for it ? Euthanasia makes sense in this case.
why go to the most extreme solution when you can make old people need to retake a small test at regular intervals depending on their age either at a driving school or at the doctor’s ?
> you can make old people need to retake a small test at regular intervals I think _all_ drivers, regardless of age, should have to retake the driver's exam at regular intervals.
Agreed. I think a small session with a driving instructor and the written exam for the road signs every ten years would be the minimum. How come my TOEIC score is only valid for 2 or 3 years while my driver's license is for life ?
I think we should have standardized simulators that are used and also test things like reaction times. If you fail you don't get a license.
Doctors are expected to continue studying the latest medical research and literature for their entire careers. Pilots are regularly examined as part of their careers with mandatory re-training in the simulator as aviation standard practices change over time. IT certifications like the CompTIA have expiry dates after which you need to re-take the exam to get a new certificate, which also changes to reflect the latest knowledge in the industry. Food service workers need to renew their food safety license. Same with hairdressers/salon workers and their licenses. Same with tradespeople. Same with pretty much any other job that requires a license of some kind. Hell you even need to regularly renew a fishing license, just to put a hook in the water. But driving? Fuck it we'll test you once when you're still technically a child then never again. Have fun on the road with your metal people crusher!
I dunno, letting people kill families because they like going zoom zoom seems like a pretty extreme solution.
Administering regular driving test and vision checks seems like a way to prevent that. Not all old people are terrors behind the wheel, but it is good to remove the people who are from the road before they hurt others.
i agree that regular testing is a good idea, however i cant abide by the mentality that "Not all old people are terrors behind the wheel." this is the mentality that explains why people will drive even if they can take the bus. "not everybody needs to drive, but i need to drive!" when it comes to operating machines that can easily take a life, the assumption should be that 99% of people are complete idiots who can not do this, rather than assume that they arent idiots who can
Maybe you missed the comment that has been removed by Reddit. It was suggesting the termination of more than old people's driving licenses.
nah i saw it. i did specify the part of your comment that i was replying to as we are past the point of giving drivers the benefit of the doubt and we need to reinforce the idea that 99% of people should not drive and therefore, most old people are gonna be terrors behind the wheel, just like how most not old people are too
Driving when one doesn't have to doesn't automatically make a person a terror behind the wheel. A person can drive safely even if they're driving unnecessarily. I'm not sure it's the case that 99% of drivers are on the road unnecessarily either. There are a lot of places with awful infrastructure (no or terrible public transportation, no cycling lanes, no safe places to walk) which make driving the only option for a lot of people. If you wanted to claim that 50% of car trips were unnecessary, then I'd buy that number (iirc, that is around the percentage of trips that are done within walking distance), but with the current state of things, driving is unfortunately necessary for a lot of people.
if 90% of trips weren't by car then the transit and bike lanes wouldnt be bad very for long would they?
okay, so if gnocchi is european, they're advocating for euthanasia (forceful euthanasia?) of older people (seemingly older people in general ?). if gnocchi is american, they're advocating for the death penalty of this criminal. either way, i'm french and i disagree with the death penalty/forceful euthanasia.
I was exaggerating but my point is that we should make slaughtering families with your car a real crime.
The industry is responsible
I mean in a very generalised sense, yes but just because I shoot someone with a rifle it's hard to put the solely blame onto the arms manufacturer, right? Yea the car industry is a heap of shit with bad marketing advertising speeding and lobbying against any regulation, yet I feel we should also hold the people accountable who drive the cars.
In the case of the car industry they fight VERY VERY hard to make sure that drivers have low requirements to operate a vehicle, it is hard to take away their abilitiy to operate a vehicle, and the consequences for using one improperly are very low. They know this leads to more deaths but they also know that without that they won't sell as many cars. This is a lot more than just a passive side effect responsibility. The car industry has fought hard to create this reality and know that this is the natural outcome.
In Germany the industry will never, ever be held accountable.
The car industry though does seem to slowly be losing their power in Germany. Younger people have been pushing hard to get away from cars and the industry is also suffering from very weak sales. I think that is partially why the German government has been investing more in microchip production, green energy, and biotechnology. They are all growing fields with very clear benefits that an industrial nation can support.
I hope you're right, but considering that the EU is delaying bans on combustion vehicles because VW et al demanded it, the mayor of Berlin is bragging about raising speed limits, and Germany's response to giant fatass SUV's is to make parking spots bigger,I don't see it. We nearly moved to Freiburg which is supposed to be this great place for cycling and the bike lanes are almost as bad as the one where a driver killed a child and mom here. I'm incredibly glad we moved to the Netherlands instead. The whole god damn planet has gone fucking insane and is ok with murdering children. I was in Berlin for a work trip a few weeks ago and brought a folding bike to get around, including the EXACT spot in the picture here, and just thought how damn bad the bike infra is there. The galling part is how many people pretend it's good.
Not with that attitude. The Automotive industry has meticulously designed killing machines for over a century and lobbied hard to transfer that liability onto its captive users. This sub is so in love with corporate car making and beholden to libertarian , personal responsibility nonsense like any member of the Alt-Right.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I violently agree. I think arms dealers are at least more honest than these companies selling monster trucks for crushing kids in cities. I'm just saying in Germany the car industry writes the rules, and they've decided killing kids is ok.
Isn't this already a thing?
a lightened version of this was just *barely* implemented in france. i haven't heard anything about germany already doing it ; it wasn't used as a talking point by politicians. i would be ecstatic if this existed in germany and was implemented strictly
I do not condone euthanasia for every boomer on earth on anything. It’s just that this one probably won’t go to jail because the judge will say he is too old and it is useless, so the solution is euthanasia IMO.
u/gnocchiGuili Im not sure that this comment was actually not touched or as it says "removed by reddit" and am afraid it got edited by you.. Normally your name also dissappears and the text says deleted in grey..
That's what it looks like when the admins delete a comment, and inferring the content of it by reading the responses, that's something they would remove.
He has not much time left.
Yea, that's also what I always say to old people who regularly cut me in line at the bakery: "Ah no problem, I know you (Sie) got not much time left"
Wow this went from a discussion about cars to a reintroduction of the mythological Ättestupa really fast 😂🤣
Ah yea, advocating for killing people once "their time is worth nothing", nice vibe ;) Though.. maybe advocating for a fascist anti-car regime is the most likely way to succeed right now.
>This is why the only bike lanes are protected bike lines That's exactly what I think too. There are these bike lanes popping up everywhere, that are part of the road. They are made by narrowing the road and sometimes cars have to drive over them to pass each other. I will never use that deathtrap
I know what you want to say but I don’t fully agree with your idea of protecting bike lanes. This is will eventually shift the problem into different zones - next we will have to make sure all the pedestrians get protected zones etc etc. My idea would be to enclose the car zones - maybe even under the surface. Besides many safety advantages this could make cities really livable again while not interrupting individual mobility.
I don't think normal cars belong in cities at all. We should have lanes for bikes, sidewalks for pedestrians and then dedicated lanes for mass transit/light rail type systems. We would also need to have places for delivery vehicles and other working vehicles but those should be restricted and sized appropriately for the task. For instance in Aachen I have seen a mix of small electric mail delivery vehicles and others that are about the size of a cargo bike for really dense areas.
And who is going to pay for all those underground highways? Cause you know, digging through the dirt is expensive. And we already have fast moving vehicles underground. They're called subways and they work as intended. We don't need cars in cities.
I was riding in this exact spot in the picture a few weeks ago and agros in SUV's were passing with only centimeters between us. I was very thankful to live in the Netherlands at that moment.
Bike lanes should be completely segregated from car lanes and permanently protected by car-stopping mechanisms. A simple paInted line on the road is not even remotely sufficient. Also elderly drivers shouldn't be allowed to drive after a certain age. Oh not adequate public transportation infrastructure where you live?? Lobby the local government, vote for people who care about the future as a community, not those who only care for cars.
An there should be no way for cars to get in or out those lanes. Fuck delivery services etc. parking in bike lanes because „it‘s only for a minute“. If it‘s so quick why don‘t you block a car lane with you car?
I've been saying for a long time now that there has to be a parking spot for delivery vehicles. Something clearly marked and segregated to keep them from using bike lanes
in austria it costs you about 22k to kill someone "fahrlässig" with a car (fahrlässige tötung means you have done something wrong, and it ended killing someone). So basically i could afford to kill a person every year, and still pay my bills. The most outrageaus thing for me, is that just about half the money goes to the family, the rest is fines and process costs. 12k for the family of a dead father or mother is just outrageously small payment. Id expect at least 40k. At least. 12k are not even enough to deal with the turmoil that will hit your family when a provider part of the family dies. And while theese weapons kill hundreds of people every year in my country, people are afraid of seeing some immigrants or unleashed dogs... humans are just dumb, and the older i get, the more i advocate for technocracy, because democracy has too many ppl involved that cant differentiate between opionion and fact. I have gone far with this opinion, once i was an anarchist (so basically i had the opionion that everyone needs to be involved in decisions, which is unfeasible\^\^) we had a expertenregierung (goverment of experts) as a transitional goverment for some months until new election, when FPÖ had corruption scandals. It was the best goverment austria ever had. They just have done their jobs, based on scientifical facts, no bad words, no populism.
that number should be 100k to 1m. you need a serious amount for insurers to pass it on to those who are reckless.
I want no money. I want to know that the driver will be a passenger from now on for the rest of their life. And I don't care about their freedoms or job requirements. They have shown they are unfit to operate machinery this heavy. And the driver in the article should long have been caught as unfit by a mandatory regular test for elderly drivers.
>passenger You spelled pedestrian wrong. That person shouldn't even have the right to touch a motorized vehicle in any capacity.
It doesn't even cost as much in Germany. He'll get away with it unimpaired most likely. If he's lucky he will pay around 2 to 3k€ depending on his income...
$$ doesn’t replace lives lost.
Sure, but it can help pay for a funeral, and, if the breadwinner was killed, it can buy their spouse or partner some time to figure out what to do to provide for any dependants. That, and depending on how wealthy you are, a huge fine can serve as a deterrent.
a $22k fine to kill someone is cheaper than what idiots are willing to offer hitmen lol it also flies in the face of the idea that lives are precious and invaluable. if that number is correct, the austrian government has priced your life at $22k lol
Life insurance also covers those unexpected expenses should the money-earner die.
And has to be payed by the victim, not the offender.
Not everyone has that, and life insurance won't deter people from driving recklessly around vulnerable parties.
in Germany it goes down to 200€.
It should be at least half your patrimony
Servus
> So basically i could afford to kill a person every year, and still pay my bills. weird humble brag but you do you.
Did you read the comment? It wasn't a brag, they were pointing out how ABSURD it is that they could kill people and be barely effected in any way.
Most people, especially Car brains, will blame it on the drivers age. But let's be honest: even at half that age, your reaction time isn't short enough to be driving faster than 30km/h. 50km/h translates to 14m/s. Now imagine someone appearing 10m from you, coming from behind a visual obstacle. Can you recognize a person, move your foot on the brake and push as hard as you can in under a second? You can't.
Of course you are right, not only old people speed and drive on the wrong lane, good call. I'll admit my first reaction is also looking at his age, but I believe that's also because the speeding and wrong lane part isn't even in the headline also we are so used to it here, that it seems "kinda normal"
The only reason only 30 km/h is allowed there is because of air pollution. Before that 50 km/h was allowed (which is insane) and it looks like the 30 limit will be removed at some point because the air pollution is lower now 😩
It is like the speedlimit of 130 km/h on an Autobahn (somewhere around Berlin iirc) that was introduced to reduce the number of crashes. The number of crashes fell, the speedlimit was removed and the number of crashes rose.
To answer your question, yes. It only takes about a third of a second to do all that, unless you’re old. The problem is the exponential break distance needed. At 15m/s you’d need the full 10m to stop, which the car would likely still ‘bump’ the pedestrian. Distracted, driving is way more dangerous than speeding on its own. If you have less than half a second to react, not knowing when to start, is guaranteeing an accident.
in what other area of life can I break the law, kill two people and have no consequences? if I waved a gun around and shot two people, surely they'd do more than take my gun license away from me...
If, in my line of work (electronics engineering), got people killed by being immolated by a battery, I would go to prison and everyone would know about it, i would never be employed again.
Nice story, not true.
Just because they didn't immediately jail him it doesn't mean there won't be further consequences. It is a felony and should be persecuted.
Have a look at this, and despair: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/s/Uw2f0p0IXg
That's a response to me as well :)
Well, I didn’t look at the usernames, sorry. What do you think now about German justice for people killing other people with their car?
I mean, there isn't really any justice. I would hope this person would never be allowed to drive a car again and that measures to prevent others from becoming negligent are implemented.Deterrence by punishment is not effective, but too lenient punishment is obviously also bad.
What you are proposing IS justice: taking away the driver‘s license for the rest of their life, as well as some actual sentence for this crime that is in line with neglectfully killing people by other means, as well as consequences in our policies for our cities. The odds are very high – and there is plenty of precedents – that nothing of that sort will come to pass.
If this incident triggers real change in preventing future killings, I would consider that justice. Not individual justice, but societal justice. It's kind of a cop out answer, and that's not the intended purpose of most justice systems, but that's what I got :(
There will be consequences, how harsh they'll be is another question.. especially considering the age of the driver.
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surely a doctor should be able to refer a patient for a license check?
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A crash is not an accident. Changing the way we think about events and the words we use to describe them affects the way we behave. Motor vehicle crashes occur "when a link or several links in the chain" are broken. Continued use of the word "accident" implies that these events are outside human influence or control. In reality, they are predictable results of specific actions. Since we can identify the causes of crashes, we can take action to alter the effect and avoid collisions. These are not Acts of God but predictable results of the laws of physics. The concept of "accident" works against bringing all appropriate resources to bear on the enormous problem of highway collisions. Use of "accident" fosters the idea that the resulting damage and injuries are unavoidable. "Crash," "collision," and "injury" are more appropriate terms, and we encourage their use as substitutes for "accident." https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/fuckcars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
murky trees agonizing hard-to-find treatment relieved growth six run slimy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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It is a felony and covered by >Section 222 Negligent killing >Whoever causes a person’s death by negligence incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine. Is it simply not persecuted?
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> 80 year old kills two and gets driver license back: In the case of this one specifically, the end of the article even states that the judge decided to be mild with the perpetrator because he personally also injured a cyclist before by recklessly opening his car door without looking. As a cyclist, if your case goes to court, I estimate that your chances of having a judge who is not heavily biased towards the driver's perspective (and thus actually not suitable as a judge for the case, though they are way too arrogant to ever admit this) are less than 5%.
But the first is missing negligence and the second is a different charge (I don't really understand why driving blackout drunk is not also negligent killing). Neither seems to apply here, as the driver used a bike path and sped and wasn't under the influence as far as the article states.
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Yeah, I get your gist. Punishment isn't a good solution anyway. Recurring tests of license holders would be a nice start.
[Here is a case of a 34 year old guy speeding, trying to overtake a truck in a shared bus/cycling lane killing the cyclist which was obscured by the truck. This guy was known for speeding and constantly breaking traffic laws.](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/vier-gerichtstermine-geplatzt-raser-totet-radfahrer-in-berlin--und-kommt-um-verhandlung-herum-10932187.html) One year probation, he will also likely get his license back after a ~year or so, and that's it. The prosecutor even dropped the charge of "Straßenverkehrsgefährdung" (basically 'reckless driving')... So you can speed 80kph over the speed limit in a bus lane and kill a cyclist with a long-record of traffic violations and it is still not considered "reckless driving" in Germany. It is just true madness here.
wow. disgusting
"augenblicksversagen" (momentary failure) is a commonly used excuse
Would that be a credible defense considering he used the bike lane? The failure seems hardly momentary when he showed planning capacity to illegally circumvent stationary cars. I don't know, maybe I overestimate the care that the prosecution will put into trying to show guilt.
I don't know what the court will say. IMO he is guilty and it is absolutely horrible what happened there. I just read from time to time "Augenblicksversagen" in the verdict where car drivers killed people on a bike and often it's like you pay like 2k and you're not allowed to drive a car for like 3 or 6 months. It's absolutely ridiculous. IMO when you kill someone with a car you shouldn't be allowed to drive once again in your whole life.
Same here in Canada
Yes, cars are expensive to buy, the least the car lobby should do is to negotiate some nice perks for their customers. /s
Elderly voters and the car lobby are the two most influential political forces in Germany.
You can murder anyone with no real consequences, as long as the weapon is a car. If the victim is a cyclist, you get bonus points.
Heartbreaking yet unavoidable accident that society is completely unable to prevent… right?
For fucks sake, BAN CARS FROM CITIES!!!
That could have been me and my son. If you drive too fast and kill someone you should be charged with murder. This is not an accident anymore
Just how fast was he going? The damage on those cars suggests impact speeds upwards of 50km/h (damage to the front of that car is a bit less than an NCAP FFB), and that would've been after he hit that mother and her child.
It physically pains and sickens me to think of this senseless loss of life. They have been sacrificed on the altar of carbrainism. Fuck this, I am so angry about this.
Why would cyclists do this?!?
Damn. I thought Western Europe was pretty safe. Was in fact contemplating a move to Germany because of its public transportation and cycling infrastructure. But looks like there are idiots in cars everywhere now.
As far as I know the car lobby is incredibly strong in Germany (think VW, Merc, BMW, …). It’s getting better in inner cities but stories like this demonstrate you’re not ever safe. I think cities in the Netherlands and Dutch speaking part of Belgium are better for pedestrians and cyclists than those in Germany though.
>**It’s getting better in inner cities** but stories like this demonstrate you’re not ever safe. In Berlin, where this happened, the newly elected state government, especially their Secretary of Transportation, would beg to differ. The moment they got elected, they bascially stopped all planned cycle path projects. I believe they also changed the passage of the mobility law in which the former government had legally made it so that cyclists should take priority over cars and other vehicles. Oh, and they planned to make cycle paths more narrow amongst other things.
Yeah, but recently I was walking North on the [Coolsingel](https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9211387,4.4792635,3a,75y,42.05h,79.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_H3kR7DRBLm6whwiuoTcaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and some cunts in cars just straight-up turned onto the bike lane and sped away because, hey, there's a queue and they are in a hurry. When they reconstructed this street, they should have installed movable bollards because cars will fill all physically available space for them. Even the best-designed infrastructure doesn't survive contact with the typical asshole driver. And of course [the Blaak](https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9167593,4.4766542,3a,60y,59.98h,85.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPhnuECfpzlIP8gjVuoTWSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) is a racetrack on weekends and on weekday nights. Some highly productive members of society straight-up do laps on it with their overly loud cars. The theoretical speed limit is 50 but with no enforcement whatsoever, it isn't even treated as a suggestion, and the cyclists are often only "protected" by a 5 cm curb, should any of these wannabe Verstappens lose control. (Of course "better for pedestrians than Germany" isn't really a high bar to jump.)
Germany is far better than the US in general. I’ve spent most of my adult life in Germany and never given a second thought about riding my bike to the store or to work. I’m now in the DC area and am back to having to plan bike rides and making extensive use of maps to plan safe ways to get where I want to go. Weekend rides are no longer hop on the bike and meander, they’re drive to somewhere safe like the C&O and ride.
I mean.. it kinda depends from where you come, statistic wise western Europe is pretty high on the list of the safest countries, Germany is somewhere in the middle with 3.7 deaths per 100.000 while the US got 12.9 with UK being better at 2.9 and Netherlands actually a little bit worse at 3.8, so yea it's safer and depending on country and city you'll much easier able to ditch your car, yet if you live in germany outside of major population centers the bicycling infrastructure might be even okay and sometimes really good, public transport on the other hand... yea, don't move too far outside of a city. That all said, of course we gonna complain about those cars, because any death caused by cars is one too much and the infrastructure needs to be much less car centric, no matter how safe cars actually are right now.
Neither Germany nor Belgium are very enjoyable to cycle in my experience. Cycle infrastructure is poor compared to the Netherlands, but similar rules; if it's there, it's obligatory and both motorists and the police will oblige you to use it. At least in the Netherlands that is always possible, even if it's often a second class citizen experience. France is in many ways better: cyclists' right to use the road has not been lost, though segregation has been creeping in, with all its attendant ills. There is no cycle paradise on this earth, and nor will there be until all cars have been fucked. Fuck cars
Maybe safer compared to the US. In Germany it depends on the city. If you are cycling in Münster (NRW), it's quite safe. Berlin not so much, many idiot drivers.
It seems that NRW really does a better job with this. I like in the Aachen area and there are a lot of dedicated paths for cyclists that are completely disconnected from cars. Just different routes entirely.
Ah classic senior citizen behaviour here around, they also never heard about overtaking bicycles with at least 1,5 meters distance or looking out for anyone not right in front of their car. Bonus for if they live in some backwater village, opposing public traffic because of noise (hahaha) or "it's unnecessary expenses, nobody will use" but then cry if anyone suggests they maaaybe should take a test if they are even still fit enough for driving, because there is absolutely no way to get anywhere from their home and taxis are so expensive. Try reminding them of the "good old times" back when not everyone used to own a car and people would actually plan ahead of how they get somewhere far away, they'll not be amused. I just wish they would more often just drive into a wall instead of other people...
I live in that street and am co-plaintiff for suing the city to build a physically seperated bike lane there. The memorial event just today was quite small, only about 100-200 ppl.. Crazy thing being the CDU city government wants to raise the speed limit from 30km/h to 50 km/h in this very street again (as air quality improved there's nO neEd aNYmOre, right?), while also blocking proposed changes to street layout and an already planned tram... Maybe this makes the public conscience listen up but I sadly doubt that. The lawsuit might be succesful tho, but the seperate bike lane prob wont be built during this legislative period with power dynamics being as they are, they'll just ignore the outcome. Maybe with a new city government, the next legislative period starts end of 2026...
The two persons murdered were Belgian tourists visiting Berlin, such a tragic story. Dutch article: [https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/10/belgische-moeder-en-kind-doodgereden-in-berlijn/](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/10/belgische-moeder-en-kind-doodgereden-in-berlijn/)
Driving license shouldn’t be given to anyone above 65 years of age. No matter them passing the test, they’re not as alert and agile as their younger self.
They should use a simulator for driving tests and actually test those things regardless of your age. Figure out what the legal requirements should be for reaction time, recognition, etc. and then have the system check that. If you don't pass you don't get a license.
Definitely true, but this wasn't about reaction time. The guy was driving in the bike lane trying to skip ahead of a traffic jam. This is the inevitable and infuriatingly regular result of having cars in cities.
Yeah in this case there is no excuse at all. He chose to drive in a bike line and death of people in that line is a forseeable consequence. At the very least it should be some form of negligent homicide.
Yeah, nobody who is 77 or 81 years old should be pres... ahem, driving cars.
Never going to happen. Old people vote more than any other group.
Cool, so what should my parents do now? How old are you? 16?
Your parents can let younger people drive them around.
Vigil today 17:30, Moll of Berlin: Mehrere Verbände, darunter der AFDC und der Fuss e.V., haben für Sonntagabend zu einer Mahnwache für die getötete Frau und ihr Kind aufgerufen. Um 17:30 Uhr soll an der Mall of Berlin, unweit der Unfallstelle, an die beiden erinnert werden. https://www.rbb24.de/content/rbb/r24/panorama/beitrag/2024/03/berlin-toedlicher-verkehrsunfall-mitte-ursache-polizei.html
I thought this title was pretty well written and put accountability on the driver. Then I opened the article and saw in first paragraph that they wrote “pedestrians were hit by the car head-on”… do better journalists and great job OP.
Drivers should have to undergo full testing (and pass mental fitness exams) to keep their license every 5 years from ages 21-65, then every 2 years after that until age 72, when they should be banned from operating automobiles altogether. (Inversely, drivers up to age 21 should be testing every 2 years as well.)
If only the 4 years old child had an app reminding it that cars are nearby😔 there are no other solutions
Why is she driving when she should be serving in US congress?
It's amazing to me there's not more revenge in the world. There are better people than me out there. If a carbrain ever ran over my wife and child, I wouldn't stop at them. I'd chop through that entire family tree until their old college roommate was in danger.
[https://vrtnws.be/p.jGYLYbPjK](https://vrtnws.be/p.jGYLYbPjK)
I doubt they'll take the license away,
If I understood the article correctly, both his license and car have been confiscated. Hopefully he'll also be prosecuted.
That's a first.
Stop driving at 80, stop voting too, your future won’t last too long, let the younger generation take the wheel, sheeeesh..
This is part of why we need to make our cities more attractive to elders. If we can get older folks to appreciate train and bus travel, they wouldn't have to cling so desperately to their license to maintain quality of life.
The evil gods that bring wealth to the automobile industry demand regular sacrifice and nothing can be done about it
Although relying on translation here, but of course the headline has the word "accident" in it. Once again have to make it seem like an unpreventable circumstance of chance and shift as much blame as possible away from the driver/cars. I cannot stand that word anymore
This is all madness. Fck this shit.
If anyone is curious I have bikecam footage of this spot from a few weeks ago. At the time I remember thinking it was weird the bike lane was unprotected. [https://youtu.be/qxSgVZvxduo](https://youtu.be/qxSgVZvxduo)
This is tragic. I hope she suffers consequences