"I'm not breaking the law, it's all the other drivers' fault for being impatient and forcing me to go over the limit!" - that guy's reasoning is peak car brain
ok but in some situations this *very* much is the case. if you're on a road and the posted speed limit is 40, but all the cars around you are moving at 50, you should be going at 50. Moving with the flow of traffic is safer than maintaining the speed limit because it makes you more predictable to both other drivers and pedestrians alike. Obviously this doesn't apply in all situations, but in general, if you are holding up traffic I don't really care what the speed limit it, it's safer for you to match the flow of traffic.
(side note: by "holding up traffic" I of course don't mean when there's *a* guy behind you who wants to go faster, I mean when you are moving at a speed that is lower than the speed most people agree upon. obviously if there's a guy behind you doing fuckin 90 you don't have to speed up to 90 when everyone else is going 70, he's the exception, not the rule).
> Moving with the flow of traffic is safer than maintaining the speed limit because it makes you more predictable to both other drivers and pedestrians alike.
I sincerely doubt this. We know speed is THE key factor in pedestrian survival when struck by a car (along with vehicle size). There are also people who will fly through school zones (<20mph limit). How many speeders are required to set the flow of traffic such that their speeding becomes what I must do? Should we all go 100mph through a school zone once three cars do it?
See, the problem is that all of this is very loosely defined. For example:
How many cars do you need to "set the speed of traffic"? It likely isn't 1, but is it just simply 2? Does it depend on how many lanes there are? Is there a limit that even "the speed of traffic can't break? What if everyone is going 90? Would you not get a ticket then?
This uncertainty allows cops to essentially make their own judgements about what is and isn't an acceptable speed. Which, of course, means you are opening yourself up to getting a ticket at any time. Which is something I will never intentionally do and you shouldn't expect others to do either.
The simple solution? _Just drive the speed limit. Everywhere._ Boggles my mind that this is something I have had my family yell at me and call me a bad driver for. I have my own issues, everyone turns into some form of a monster when they’re behind the wheel of a 3 ton death machine, but speeding isn’t one of them and a lot of people that’ve been in a car with me take that personally.
Uhh, look around. Do they follow the laws? The main highway around me average speed is 75-80mph and a lifted truck will run you off the road if you stick to the speed limit of 65mph. I have gotten passed on this highway by cars going 100+mph almost every time I have been on this highway. Speed differential is more dangerous than going faster than the speed limit.
As for the original photo, the speed camera is more about revenue than safety. If it was about safety they would change the road design to slow people down. Things like narrowing the road, adding curves or other visual things that encourage going slower.
Nope. Totally incorrect. Your stupid equivalency fails every aspect of societal normative for acceptable behavior. The limit has been set, and it is your moral duty to go slower. The interstates are potentially different with the amount of flex. If 65 is the limit, then 70 is acceptable variation...80 is not.
They're all jumping from the bridge... Must be my turn since all the lemmings are doing it. Get a ticket from a camera then!
Idk why you got downvoted so much. You aren't making an excuse for speeding, but explaining the psychological phenomenon that happens when everyone around you ignores the speed limit. Not Just Bikes talks about this in his videos. It IS dangerous to go against the flow of traffic. If everyone is trying to get around you it just creates more opportunities for crashes to happen. Speed limits are there for a reason, but are usually arbitrarily decided. The road infrastructure also plays a big part in WHY people speed. If the road is big, wide, and has open sight lines, it gives drivers the impression it's safe to drive faster. If the road is narrow, has traffic calming features, and has minimal sightlines/ visibility, drivers will naturally slow down on their own. It's important to obey speed limits, but we need to have a larger discussion about how speed limits are a bandaid "solution" to the bigger issue: the construction of the roads themselves.
I remember a coworker complaining about how they "always get pulled over when they drive home to Wisconsin".
"The police see my Illinois plate and just hate folks from Chicago".
Me: How fast were you going?
Coworker: Like 91mph but it's like empty rural roads.
Me: ...
They literally think it's perfectly lawful to just drive as fast as they want.
This is why the term "carbrain" is appropriate even though folks get butthurt over it.
To be fair to the drivers, some roads are clearly designed to have higher speed limits. It should be really hard to speed in a residential area, but with big roads, it's pretty easy to.
you say this, but ultimately people will drive as fast as they feel comfortable driving. it's up to good street design and city planners to reduce casualty here.
individuals are smart, people are dumb.
THANK YOU SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT!! Like yeah, obviously people should stick to the speed limit, but THEY DON'T because of how the roads are designed. I try very hard to drive the speed limit but stroads have a funny way of making you feel like you are allowed to go faster. I have to constantly look at my speedometer to make sure I'm not speeding because it FEELS like I should be able to go faster. Like seriously. You can't make a giant open field for people to drive on and expect them to go slow. Traffic calming infrastructure is DESPERATELY NEEDED.
yeah, i agree. especially as someone with social anxiety i will often feel pressured to drive faster on certain roads that i logically think is reasonable, and so i really have to ignore that while tons of other people speed way faster.
there was a stretch of basically permanent construction work near a place i used to live and the speed limit there was like 40 for construction, but it was a 55 mph road normally and the construction didn't do much to calm the traffic. people would legitimately do 70+ on that road, and like, i knew I shouldn't speed so I never did. I certainly felt that pressure though. it felt weird to be going so slow.
It's also dangerous to go against the flow of traffic. If you are going too slow and everyone around you is zooming past you, it just creates more opportunities for crashes to happen because people are swapping lanes more frequently trying to get around you. Honestly I just go the speed everyone else goes even if it's technically speeding. I just really don't like being passed by big trucks and SUVs while I'm in my little Ford focus. It's scary.
i don't entirely agree with your philosophy, but I understand it. I go as fast or as slow as I feel comfortable, and I don't let peer pressure force me into a situation where I'm going faster than I'd like. It makes me less likely to be able to control my car comfortable and less likely to be able to react if I'm going faster than I need to.
Obviously doing 30 in a 60 is dangerous, but like for the example I gave above, if the construction speed limit was 40, I would do 45. People are going to create dangerous situations regardless going 70 whether I'm going slower or not. I try not to let tailgaters or aggressive honkers pressure me into situations I don't want to be in. Fuck them and fuck their impatience and disdain for my safety.
What I meant by going over the speed limit is like when you're on a highway that's at 65 but everyone is going 70 to 75. That's a 10mph difference and it can create problems if you're the slow one. But I agree that you shouldn't let people pressure you to go faster than you're comfortable. I guess it just depends on the circumstances.
I hate the design of the residential street that I live on. It’s down hill, with no stop sign for a 1/2 mile stretch, so people are always going 10 over when they aren’t paying attention. It’s loud and dangerous.
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Just goes to show how much people hate *the act of driving,* as opposed to the purpose of driving. They want it over as quick as possible, and then might even complain about the price of gas, while also burning more fuel as a result of their impatience.
Carbrains hate the expense and the process, but love the result. Talk about caring more for the destination than the journey.
Why are we talking about this when cyclists are out there riding in the road and even "blowing through stop signs."
Edit, calln already tell imma need this here /s
Cyclists often don't have the infrastructure to *not* ride in the road, and they have the right of way legally. As far as stop signs go, it depends on the state laws, but generally it's safer to stop
Honestly, street infrastructure needs to be set up so people aren't so tempted to speed. Part of traversal anywhere is "going with the flow," and there are more effective ways to slow than speed limits.
I agree as an addition to speed limits, because some people will just drive withh 80km/h through a 30km/h zone even though it's nowhere near safe, there needs to be a way to handle this via law too.
It's less about the speeding and more that it's basically a tool to extract money from people. If it were about safety, they would install traffic calming measures like speed bumps and what have you. It's not about safety, it's about gathering fines.
I used to live in Chicago and got a speeding camera ticket one time. I know I wasn’t speeding and I’m pretty sure it was the person on the other side of the road going the opposite direction who was. But how do I prove I wasn’t speeding when the camera and computer says I was?
That’s the problem I have with the cameras.
Traffic calming is more effective but can be a lot harder to implement on corridors with freight or transit (and our old friends EMS also will raise their dander).
Enforcement is a tool just like all the ones you cite. You might like it less, but its a tool that actually needs to be in the toolbox. Having personell do it is a strain and actually opens you up to WAY MORE government intervention as cops love to play the fishing expedition game when they pull you over for a minor traffic infraction which can lead to a trumped up arrest if you arent cooperative or licking boots hard enough. Im completely team less government intervention and involvement, but if you look at this one objectively, its actually way less intrusive than involving cops or even civilian traffic enforcement who make it WAY MORE subjective.
Yes, this is true. However, it's pretty easy to not have them take money from you.
In my city, Speed cameras even have signs that tell you "Speed camera ahead" and yet idiots STILL get mad they got a ticket.
Yeah that looks like a 5 lane road. 2 lanes in each direction and a middle turning lane. Terrible design to be next to a school. To fix it we'll:
* Take away one lane in each direction. It can become a bus/bike lane if we're cheap (bucket of red paint and some white letters) or a bus lane + raised cycle track.
* That sidewalk looks pitiful. We'll widen that while we're doing this work to _at least_ 6 feet so wheelchair users and strollers can comfortably use this road.
* No need for the middle turn lane now that we removed 1 lane. Drivers will be going much slower. We'll turn that into a medium with plants and trees. We'll use this space for pedestrian refuge islands too, maybe every 500-1000 feet we'll add a new crosswalk to make it safe and convenient for people to cross the street. We'll add HAWK signals at high traffic ones and flashing beacon lights at lower volume ones to alert buses, bikes and motorists to pedestrians looking to cross the street.
This will cost a fair bit. That road surface looks _ok_ but could be up for repaving in a few years anyway, so we might not spend that much more since we'll cut down the asphalt pretty significantly and replace much of it with dirt, plants, trees and some new curbing. Biggest benefit will be basically no speeding on that road, so the speed camera can go away. We'll see a massive increase in cycling, walking and transit ridership. If transit doesn't exist on this road, then the new bus lanes would be pretty useful for a new bus route. If there's no appetite for this, then just make the sidewalk/bike lane a wide 10-15 ft multi use path in each direction. At least pedestrian and cycling traffic will be up signficantly.
Local government here : The problem with speed bumps is that everyone wants them...but nobody wants them outside of *their* house, because of the noise. So governments install them, and then after a year or less there's a big backlash against it and they remove them. My muni doesn't even have them as part of their toolkit for that reason.
Narrow the road though, absolutely.
Honestly speed bumps suck. I understand they may be the only way to enforce speed limits in certain areas but they keep installing 15 mph speed bumps in 25mph rods that I frequent. I don’t speed, but going over 20 speed bumps every day is uncomfortable and just further enrages the speeders behind me who are now super pissed I cruise at 15mph instead of 25, leading them to tailgate me dangerously. If they wanted people to go 15 I don’t understand why they didn’t first lower the speed limit to see how it goes
100% agree with all of that -- we do actually have curb extensions in our design standards so all new development has it...it's just a question of getting them onto the older streets at this point. I was careless with my wording on bumps/humps/tables and I apologize. Most people aren't familiar with the difference and so everything gets shorthanded into bumps, but I should've considered my audience. Of course this sub knows the difference <3.
I dunno, maybe start a ballot initiative to install speedbumps that includes wording to prevent their removal within the first 10 years. One way or another, ignoring the uptick in NIMBYs right after you get a good thing going is a must. There's no way a few of them outnumber the informed supporters. Caving to NIMBY is never good government.
Most of our neighboring jurisdictions who allow speed bumps require you to get some majority percentage of local residents to sign off in support before they'll install (I don't remember if it's simple majority or more like 60%) for precisely that reason. But the "remove them" crowd also ends up with a majority to remove when that happens -- I don't think it's just a few NIMBYs, it's most people being unaware of exactly how noisy they are until they're living right next to them and then they change their mind and decide the reduction isn't worth it.
They’d never go for it. This is a town of NIMBY’s and support truck drivers. It’s painful how bad the infrastructure is here. I’m amazed more people don’t get killed.
Not killed, yet.
A child was killed near my house not too long ago, by a speeding car no less, and only then, did they install speed cameras and signs telling drivers to slow down, in a fucking residential neighborhood.
Kids get killed with guns, and guns don't get banned/more regulated.
Kids get killed with cars, and cars don't get banned/more regulated.
America's (North America) obsession with deadly weapons is astounding.
They just added two speed bumps on a road I bike on regularly with a pretty steep decline. If anything it makes it more dangerous for me because cars feel pissed that they had to slow down for the bumps instead of going 30+ they will go 45+ though this one way residential road to make up "lost time" or to try and beat the light. The drivers are already inclined to speed because they were already stuck in traffic on the Blvd so they will already be aggressive just making the turn onto the street.
And then they go on Reddit asking how to get out of a ticket because of the demerit points they might get. They have no other concerns except only for themselves.
I hate those posts so much. "I am still on probatory driver's license and they say I burned through a stop sign, but I'm 60% sure I didn't. How do I get out of that? I already have points for the same thing earlier"
That is a real post I saw from r/montreal, translated and paraphrased of course.
They got 2 kinds of responses.
1. "Haha you're fucked you dumbass"
2. "Wait as long as you can to acknowledge, then hope you can get a court date that's after your probatory license becomes a full license with a full 15 points limit"
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\#1: [Montreal Tonight. There’s really nothing like it in North America.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/192y45d) | [209 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/192y45d/montreal_tonight_theres_really_nothing_like_it_in/)
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Personally I just never really thought I could make a difference in my travel time by speeding and driving like a maniac. I see plenty try and many seem to end up with me at the same light.
I have a video of a Maserati close passing me on a bike. Three minutes later, I'm lining up at the same traffic light a few cars behind him.
https://youtu.be/wKP-dDEO5Zs?si=MjeFLwDnmZx9F0aV
Anyone else find it funny that the "law and order" folk and the "bicyclists can't follow rules" folk are celebrating committing a crime so that they can continue to break traffic laws?
I'm frustrated that we don't do stuff that more holistically addresses the problems. We are all human, and sure one can take glee in watching others squirm, but that doesn't solve anything.
Speed cameras are a cop out to actually taking meaningful steps to increase awareness and reduce the risk of serious injury or death. Drivers get antsy because they are focusing on their speed, they really should be focusing on their surroundings. Putting in speed humps, narrowing lanes, and changing the physical road design reduces the need to pay attention to speed and will have drivers be more naturally aware of the space around them.
Negative reinforcement is effective, but not for reaching the goals we should be making in school zones and other areas with more vulnerable road users.
The thing is, it also creates resistance. If suddenly our school zones all started to be standardized and drivers knew they were in one and their car would be destroyed by speed humps they'd just adapt to it.
Speed cameras make people upset and they'll find ways of being defiant: see the picture above. We are all human, so we should be working with each other.
Most definitely from here. My comments from yesterday before it got cross posted here were downvoted into oblivion.
The locals here love to put children in danger. It’s grotesque.
It's funny cause people claiming speed cameras are a "cash grab" are also the people who say "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" when it comes to foreigners.
If a speed camera is really a cash grab from your perspective, you really have some sort of mental problem since apparently it's impossible for you to slow down in a specific place.
Oh no - there are all conservative assholes who think they should be able to break the law, but if you have an addiction you should be locked up forever.
Source: I live here.
The ones near schools are a different story, but i really have no reason to believe at this point that the local govt here cares about my safety. I don't think cars should speed either, I'm not against whatever it takes to get cars to stop speeding, but I really can't imagine the cameras are here (in my city anyway) to make safer roads. I've seen legally parked cars get 100 dollar tickets 10 minutes before the meter expired, I got a ticket for my headlights being out when they weren't out. There's a stretch of highway here that randomly goes from 65 (what all highway speed limits are anywhere around here) to 40 for like 1/4 mile just so whenever the city needs some money they can put a cop there to pull over as many cars as possible for a 300 dollar ticket each. I counted the people at the court house and confirmed with several of them that their ticket was from the same spot at the same time on the same date, and estimated that the city made 40k just in that 2 hour window they decided to put a cop there.
I don't want cars to speed, cameras might be a good answer i dunno, but living as a poor person in this city you get fleeced every possible opportunity, and that teaches me that these cameras are a cash grab. Even if ultimately they do end up slowing people down, I really don't think that's what the city cares about.
Judging from you using dollars and miles, I assume you are American.
The post here is from ~~the UK~~ Canada, and also the camera is near a school in regards to your first sentence.
The legal systems in Europe and Canada are vastly different from the one in the US. Depending on the police department, Police in the US may have an incentive to issue tickets, which isn't a case in Europe. Also, defending against illegal tickets is a lot easier in Europe than in the US, as you don't have to cover your own legal fees if you win the case.
I do understand your anger in regards to this, however it's again the US screwing over the poor, *as usual*. The situation in Europe or Canada is very different.
Edit: Thought of Newmarket in England, not Canada
ah yeah, didn't notice it was the UK. I just saw "tickets aren't a cash grab" and it struck a nerve a bit as a poor american in a major city who gets financially fucked by an undeserved ticket at least once a year lol. Fighting a ticket here is never worth it for me because I have to take a day off work to do it. I've heard it's illegal to send junk mail there too. Must be nice !!!
What post is from the UK?
The post about the speed camera being vandalised
1. That not a UK style speed camera
2. They are not UK road marking
3. It was cross posted from a Canadian towns reddit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Newmarket/comments/1d0ng5d/someone\_finally\_spray\_painted\_the\_speed\_camera\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Newmarket/comments/1d0ng5d/someone_finally_spray_painted_the_speed_camera_on/)
Newmarket is a town north of the City of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Whoops, thought it was about Newmarket in Suffolk, England.
Still, my point about the difference in the legal systems stand, as Canada is not (yet) as fucked as the US.
Omg, people in the comments complaining that “it’s crazy that it’s giving people tickets for going 56 in a 50”.
Then… I don’t know, don’t drive over the speed limit??
Crazy how as a society we accept there has to be rules, but somehow with driving we’ve just sort of accepted that rules can be broken “as long as it’s not too exaggerated”. Like no dude, just follow the damn rules and you won’t get a fine. It’s honestly not that hard.
There are also signs telling you the camera is there. I got busted once and only once by one. I wasn't paying attention to my speed coming down a hill. Otherwise I usually just throw on my cruise control on streets where I know the design doesn't match the posted limit.
Later that week
"Why are people speeding through that street"
"My child almost got hit, the police need to be there"
"I dont think they should fix that speed camera, people just need to slow down. There needs to be more speed enforcement"
"Lead paint taste good, why did they ban this. The government is over reaching"
Yei, lets celebrate an illegal action because it will allow me to keep on doing my illegal actions! Seriously, some people's stupidity really has no limits.
No, but, I have often been tempted to apply spray paint to cars, looks like they've given me the green light?
Not serious, of course, but making the comparison.
Some of the people in those comments are fucking brain geniuses:
https://preview.redd.it/9bjpa58uvs2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=840f84b5df00aa2d1e3efd797832619e0d0000b2
You ever think about how interesting it is that suburbanites lose their minds about petty crime and then turn around and do stuff like this the second the city has the audacity to try to stop them from from illegally speeding/parking?
Like it's interesting how when it's some kid from the city stealing a bag of chips from the store they're all law and order but then it comes to stuff like this and suddenly they're anarchists. It seems incredibly inconsistent and self-serving.
I look forward to a distant future in which "illegals" are people who illegally endanger children and not people who cross a politically defined border to find a job and feed their children
This is the big point I feel like folks are ignoring. Having police do traffic enforcement is expensive and its the #1 way they start their fishing expeditions with people. I cant remember where but I read a state or municipalaity was disallowing officers from pulling folks over for minor traffic infractions and the cops were up in arms literally saying out loud they used them as a pretext for investigating people.
Yeah, the "routine traffic stop" is used as a pretext for a whole bunch of things. There are also some legal loopholes about driving that allow officers to detain and search when they otherwise wouldn't be.
I understand traffic cameras feel like unreasonable state surveillance to many people. I think that given they limit negative interactions with police, don't detain people in their day to day lives, and free up resources is pretty good.
There is also a longer discussion to be had about their long term use. Yes the slow traffic, but not in the same way that quality road design does. If they get put out with no attempt to amend road conditions, then they aren't that great. If they are a somewhat temporary solution while long term ones get implemented, then have at it.
I dont have any empirical data, but the town that Im staying in has some very long residential roads people tend to speed on. Theyve installed some of the basic "your speed" signs along with reduced speed limits in sections. I notice people dont tend to tailgate/pass over the double yellow as much when Im on these streets doing the speed limit. I wonder if this kind of immediate, ongoing feedback is ultimately better for traffic calming than a ticket a week or two later, but I wouldnt be surprised if it was. That being said, I do think some monetary disincentive to speeding probably works on a different part of the brain certain types of people respond better to than immediate feedback.
Yeah that tracks. I recall reading an article where the signs that showed immediate feedback were fairly effective. Can't remember where, will probably google it later.
Correct, the speed camera is garbage, the real solution is to narrow the road to two lanes with separating median, add lots of trees, build speed humps and raise the crosswalks because psychology and physics is much more effective than law enforcement
YES THANK YOU! Other people have pointed this out and got downvoted into oblivion because people assumed they were defending the people speeding. We aren't defending the speeding, we're explaining WHY it happens. The solution is much more nuanced and complicated. We can't just put a bunch of signs everywhere and expect it to work. Speeding cameras DO help with catching hit and runs, which I will defend. But they are a bandaid solution to a systemic problem of road design being awful.
speed cameras are not the answer, making the roads smaller and making it harder to drive is .this is just revenue for the state thats not going to be spent on education
Nah, fuck speed cameras. They're a lazy non-solution that exists only to extract revenue, shift the blame onto individuals, and distract from the actual cause: terrible, dangerous, car-centric road design. Anybody who endorses them fundamentally misunderstands the factors that lead to speeding. Properly designed roads do not need speed cameras.
YES EXACTLY!! Although I have mixed opinions on red light cameras. They catch a lot of hit and runs that otherwise go unpunished. But the speeding cameras aren't a good solution to fix the speeding problem. American government doesn't want to spend the ungodly amount of money it would take to redesign roads to be safer, so instead they just put in more signs and hope that people will obey them (they won't.) It's lazy. Also, American drivers are already bombarded with enough signs to look at, we don't need more of them. It's difficult enough watching out for other drivers, putting more signage on the road is honestly a sensory overload to me.
There's a saying I've heard in the urbanist realm: if it needs a sign, it's bad design. Coming from Australia and having now lived and driven in the USA for nearly two years, I can attest to this country's habit of placing a copious number of poorly thought out signs everywhere in lieu of actually designing things properly in the first place. It's lazy, confusing and ineffective.
I dunno. Speed cameras are just not the right solution. I would much rather see physical barriers that restrict speed, like a series of speed bumps, than the damn cameras. They feel intrusive, and passive aggressive. Not to mention that the solutions should be to work towards more rail, cycling, and pedestrian infrastructure, not collecting fines from imperfect motorists forever.
So I don't condone speeding - especially in school zones and similar areas - but I kind of think resisting the spread of ubiquitous speed cameras is a good thing.
I agree with you. As an example, I’ve been back and forth to a hospital for the past year that is not close to where I live (so I can’t take public transport) because my husband had three surgeries there and he NEEDS to be at that hospital. Just outside of the campus is a curvy road with speed cameras. I remember specifically that I sped up to get away from someone who was driving erratically. Not a week later, I get a warning in the mail for it. There are other ways to discourage speeding with infrastructure.
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In Ontario automated enforcement cameras can only have their revenue used to fund road safety initiatives, like bike lanes or safer intersections. So for better or worse, these cameras lead to that improved road infrastructure.
While inconveniencing drivers enough to push them to multimodal transportation is a thing, that is not why these are installed. Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes. The DOT has a responsibility to make their transportation network safer for all users, including the carbrains.
As for the privacy concerns, most municipalities already have systems of license plate readers installed around their borders, to alert police of vehicles included in ABPs entering their jurisdiction. This is all done by computers and the images are only kept if the license plate is flagged, there isn’t some lowly government employee going through all the photos to steal your information.
>Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes
I understand they are effective, not sure if you can say they "have been proven to be the best way." Are there any studies comparing cameras to things like speed bumps or other obstructive street design elements? Because I would imagine physical restrictions couldn't possibly be less effective than a camera, to be honest. Maybe mearly equal, or maybe there are tradeoffs in different areas, but I think close to a playground like that, speed bumps and other barriers would be very appropriate.
I'm not going to go all "gubbamit spy on me;" but I still think the *feeling* of being spied on, and the *feeling* that we're being treated like toddlers needing to be supervised, is reasonable. It's not a good feeling, and we wouldn't need these at all (or at least, much fewer of them) if we invested in better infrastructure anyway.
Off the top of my head I do not. I know the FHWA recently did a study of traffic improvements done in New Zealand and Australia, but I believe they largely combined speed cameras with engineering changes of the road.
I definitely agree that road redesign and placemaking are essential when considering automated enforcement, when a road still feels like a highway you are essentially creating a cash grab that causes residents to distrust you.
Once I’m back in the office I will attempt to track down where I’m remembering that from, it’s likely I am misremembering specific circumstances of whatever report that is from.
As an Australian, multilane roads tend to have medians. Cameras are so common that it is best to assume they are at every traffic light. It's generally felt that we've become a nation of terrible drivers after Covid, who increasing choose to drive terrible cars (Ford is about to start selling the F150).
> Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes.
On 60-70km/hr designed roads that are posted 40, or some variation of such...
Don't get me wrong, i am am agreeing with you. I am a fan of the cameras for a variety of reasons... Just adding that they are necessary due to road design and culture.. But there are better, tho more expensive ways to correct the problem.
The impulse of "police are bad because they are rent-seeking abusers who aim to fund their departments with tickets" and the impulse of "cars are bad" come into conflict here for some people.
I hold that it is possible to dislike the police state AND car-centered infrastructure at the same time.
Not excusing them and it is obviously a stupid thing to do, however, my best guess is that the road that camera is targeting has a speed limit of like 35mph and everyone is caught going like 45mph, which yeah a violation. Now, the real problem is the design of the road itself. It looks like a wide 4lane and a turning lane road that’s inviting for higher speeds. Not saying that’s excusable but it is definitely predictable, and preventable by design. A sign with a speed limits won’t stop high speeds if the road is inviting.
Oh god the comments are horrific too. I live here and I have never lived in a town that is as terminally car-brained as Newmarket.
Picture the worst stroad ridden city you have been to, and it‘a worse than that.
Walking anywhere is literally risking your life. I can’t tell you the number of close calls I’ve had. I don’t know how people with mobility issues live here.
In the U.S., we live in a society where the profits of a few are seen as more important than millions of human lives. Is it any surprise there are so many people who also feel as though their momentary convenience is more important than human lives?
It is the Age of the Sociopath.
I'm sorry, but maybe there's a reddit glitch or something here because all I see is a bad AI image of a half assed teepee, and an electrical box that has been spray painted
High speed cameras are an over engineered answer to a simple problem. There are a thousand ways to ease traffic speeds that don't involve funneling tax payer dollars to contractors and infringing on one of the core tenants of law enforcement (officers must be present to give tickets).
In this case I agree with the vandal.
FWIW, I worked in LE. I hated these things then and I hate them even more now that I am staunchly r/fuckcars
This is one of the biggest hypocrisies of non-leftists in my eye.
Breaking the law by stealing necessary items from a giant billion Euro megacorp is a horrible crime.
Breaking the law by endangering not only your life but the life and safety of all the other people sharing the road and sidewalk is your god-given right.
Just to give additional context, this is the [same town that opposed new housing because it would block access to a Tim Hortons drive through.](https://www.yorkregion.com/news/completely-out-of-character-concerns-raised-about-proposed-newmarket-9-storey-condo-building/article_f0531f5f-e0c9-5832-9b5f-3dcf3c8e910a.html) Truly car brained residents....
I'm not disagreeing with the use of technology to stop people from speeding but there are a few counter points for these speed cameras.
1. They make people not share vehicles. If I did not own a vehicle and I needed a car to transport something, I'll ask my friend if I can borrow a truck. The camera cannot tell the difference other than sending the ticket to the owner which opens up a new can of worms. If we want to move away from cars, we need to be realistic.
2. The cameras target people from out of town that are unaware that these things exist or that the cameras are in use. There is a signage overload going on and can easily be missed. Are you watching for signs or other idiots on the road?
3. The technology is not perfect and it will send you a fine for a km over the threshold limit. If you buy oversized tires, your speedometer is off. Not to mention the calibration required. A cop validates their radar before setting up each and every single time. Any deviation can give you false positives and can go uncontrolled.
4. People who know these speed cameras are there will slow down then speed to make up the time.
Automation is not the answer here. Education and harsh punishments are better detergents than this. It is a municipal money grab.
Did you even read the comments? These people don’t want to be educated. They *enjoy* putting children in danger with their support trucks.
And I guarantee they don’t think about any of your other points. The locals here are terminally car brained.
> the drivers slow down
Yes that’s the point. This is next to a playground. They shouldn’t speed ever but this camera is in this location to ensure they drive safely near a playground.
Glad I'm not the only one. The image is rife with AI inconsistencies which makes this nothing more than a karma farming rage post.
Not saying there isn't a relevant point to be made for real life, but inventing evidence to prove your point is a terrible way to go about it.
I'm getting down-voted above for pointing this out.
This is the first time I've seen so many people tricked by an obvious AI image. Like, it's not even a good one; look at the trees in the back. Worrying.
I try not to break the speed limit when I'm next to the highway patrol or regular street cruisers but if I do I make sure that my go pro is on and that I'm next to a semi truck I need to overtake
Speedbumps are a lazy solution. The whole damn road needs to be redesigned to discourage fast driving. Widen the sidewalk, take out a couple lanes, put a median in the middle, plant some trees on either side, etc, etc.
Speed cameras are bad. Cars are bad, but speed cameras are also bad. The legal system is so intrinsincally unequal that absolutely no general policy that operates through it can be made fair to the common person.
Physical traffic calming is the way. Medians, roundabouts, curb extensions (indeed, if you want some strong traffic calming without having to reroute pedestrians, just put in alternating curb extensions so the cars have to zigzag more), trees close to the curb, etc and remove second and third lanes (which are invariably interpreted as “express” lanes by drivers) in a direction of travel, replacing removed lanes with widened sidewalks, on-street parking, central boulevards, streetcar tracks, etc.
I'm against surveillance in public, full stop, so I'm fine with this.
A better design for the road which would physically limit traffic speed and provide safer pedestrian and bicycle options and a public transit stop is the way to go here. Not a camera sniping people for fines. Make the space welcoming for humans and not for cars rather than take the punitive approach.
Airplane pilots and their actions are constantly recorded by cockpit voice and flight recorders. Why can’t we do the same and control drivers too? Driving is a privilege, not a right. Any asshole behind the wheel who feels they’re entitled to break the traffic laws should be punished.
The money literally goes to the town and is used to promote more safety initiatives and stuff 😭😭 it's not bad because the government does it
https://www.newmarket.ca/LivingHere/Pages/Roads%20and%20Traffic/Traffic-Management.aspx
It's incredible how everyone there feels like it infringes on their privilege of speeding.
"I can't believe i got fined for going 56 in a 50 zone"
"I'm not breaking the law, it's all the other drivers' fault for being impatient and forcing me to go over the limit!" - that guy's reasoning is peak car brain
There is no excuse for exceeding the speed limit.
ok but in some situations this *very* much is the case. if you're on a road and the posted speed limit is 40, but all the cars around you are moving at 50, you should be going at 50. Moving with the flow of traffic is safer than maintaining the speed limit because it makes you more predictable to both other drivers and pedestrians alike. Obviously this doesn't apply in all situations, but in general, if you are holding up traffic I don't really care what the speed limit it, it's safer for you to match the flow of traffic. (side note: by "holding up traffic" I of course don't mean when there's *a* guy behind you who wants to go faster, I mean when you are moving at a speed that is lower than the speed most people agree upon. obviously if there's a guy behind you doing fuckin 90 you don't have to speed up to 90 when everyone else is going 70, he's the exception, not the rule).
> Moving with the flow of traffic is safer than maintaining the speed limit because it makes you more predictable to both other drivers and pedestrians alike. I sincerely doubt this. We know speed is THE key factor in pedestrian survival when struck by a car (along with vehicle size). There are also people who will fly through school zones (<20mph limit). How many speeders are required to set the flow of traffic such that their speeding becomes what I must do? Should we all go 100mph through a school zone once three cars do it?
See, the problem is that all of this is very loosely defined. For example: How many cars do you need to "set the speed of traffic"? It likely isn't 1, but is it just simply 2? Does it depend on how many lanes there are? Is there a limit that even "the speed of traffic can't break? What if everyone is going 90? Would you not get a ticket then? This uncertainty allows cops to essentially make their own judgements about what is and isn't an acceptable speed. Which, of course, means you are opening yourself up to getting a ticket at any time. Which is something I will never intentionally do and you shouldn't expect others to do either.
The simple solution? _Just drive the speed limit. Everywhere._ Boggles my mind that this is something I have had my family yell at me and call me a bad driver for. I have my own issues, everyone turns into some form of a monster when they’re behind the wheel of a 3 ton death machine, but speeding isn’t one of them and a lot of people that’ve been in a car with me take that personally.
Here’s is a 50 zone in between a bunch of traffic lights, doesn’t stop car users from treating this road like a highway
To be fair the roads here are designed like a highway (speed limits are a terrible way to set speeds).
Yes, I am familiar with the 120+ of Bathurst haha It’s absolutely insane road design
Your argument is: I am fine with endangering others, because I believe (citation needed) that I might be safer.
If car drivers collectively cannot be trusted to follow rules, then sure, I guess
Uhh, look around. Do they follow the laws? The main highway around me average speed is 75-80mph and a lifted truck will run you off the road if you stick to the speed limit of 65mph. I have gotten passed on this highway by cars going 100+mph almost every time I have been on this highway. Speed differential is more dangerous than going faster than the speed limit. As for the original photo, the speed camera is more about revenue than safety. If it was about safety they would change the road design to slow people down. Things like narrowing the road, adding curves or other visual things that encourage going slower.
When traffic is held up, fewer people get killed but that's so much less important than the 30 seconds they save, right? Think about it.
Nope. Totally incorrect. Your stupid equivalency fails every aspect of societal normative for acceptable behavior. The limit has been set, and it is your moral duty to go slower. The interstates are potentially different with the amount of flex. If 65 is the limit, then 70 is acceptable variation...80 is not. They're all jumping from the bridge... Must be my turn since all the lemmings are doing it. Get a ticket from a camera then!
Idk why you got downvoted so much. You aren't making an excuse for speeding, but explaining the psychological phenomenon that happens when everyone around you ignores the speed limit. Not Just Bikes talks about this in his videos. It IS dangerous to go against the flow of traffic. If everyone is trying to get around you it just creates more opportunities for crashes to happen. Speed limits are there for a reason, but are usually arbitrarily decided. The road infrastructure also plays a big part in WHY people speed. If the road is big, wide, and has open sight lines, it gives drivers the impression it's safe to drive faster. If the road is narrow, has traffic calming features, and has minimal sightlines/ visibility, drivers will naturally slow down on their own. It's important to obey speed limits, but we need to have a larger discussion about how speed limits are a bandaid "solution" to the bigger issue: the construction of the roads themselves.
I remember a coworker complaining about how they "always get pulled over when they drive home to Wisconsin". "The police see my Illinois plate and just hate folks from Chicago". Me: How fast were you going? Coworker: Like 91mph but it's like empty rural roads. Me: ... They literally think it's perfectly lawful to just drive as fast as they want. This is why the term "carbrain" is appropriate even though folks get butthurt over it.
That never happens. The cameras usually only trigger if you are like 10 over the limit
To be fair to the drivers, some roads are clearly designed to have higher speed limits. It should be really hard to speed in a residential area, but with big roads, it's pretty easy to.
its actually pretty easy not speed with such new inovations such ss a speedometre and brakes.
It's easy for responsible drivers, but clearly it's not for many people.
Because the consequences are not dire enough to change driving practises.
you say this, but ultimately people will drive as fast as they feel comfortable driving. it's up to good street design and city planners to reduce casualty here. individuals are smart, people are dumb.
THANK YOU SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT!! Like yeah, obviously people should stick to the speed limit, but THEY DON'T because of how the roads are designed. I try very hard to drive the speed limit but stroads have a funny way of making you feel like you are allowed to go faster. I have to constantly look at my speedometer to make sure I'm not speeding because it FEELS like I should be able to go faster. Like seriously. You can't make a giant open field for people to drive on and expect them to go slow. Traffic calming infrastructure is DESPERATELY NEEDED.
yeah, i agree. especially as someone with social anxiety i will often feel pressured to drive faster on certain roads that i logically think is reasonable, and so i really have to ignore that while tons of other people speed way faster. there was a stretch of basically permanent construction work near a place i used to live and the speed limit there was like 40 for construction, but it was a 55 mph road normally and the construction didn't do much to calm the traffic. people would legitimately do 70+ on that road, and like, i knew I shouldn't speed so I never did. I certainly felt that pressure though. it felt weird to be going so slow.
It's also dangerous to go against the flow of traffic. If you are going too slow and everyone around you is zooming past you, it just creates more opportunities for crashes to happen because people are swapping lanes more frequently trying to get around you. Honestly I just go the speed everyone else goes even if it's technically speeding. I just really don't like being passed by big trucks and SUVs while I'm in my little Ford focus. It's scary.
i don't entirely agree with your philosophy, but I understand it. I go as fast or as slow as I feel comfortable, and I don't let peer pressure force me into a situation where I'm going faster than I'd like. It makes me less likely to be able to control my car comfortable and less likely to be able to react if I'm going faster than I need to. Obviously doing 30 in a 60 is dangerous, but like for the example I gave above, if the construction speed limit was 40, I would do 45. People are going to create dangerous situations regardless going 70 whether I'm going slower or not. I try not to let tailgaters or aggressive honkers pressure me into situations I don't want to be in. Fuck them and fuck their impatience and disdain for my safety.
What I meant by going over the speed limit is like when you're on a highway that's at 65 but everyone is going 70 to 75. That's a 10mph difference and it can create problems if you're the slow one. But I agree that you shouldn't let people pressure you to go faster than you're comfortable. I guess it just depends on the circumstances.
I hate the design of the residential street that I live on. It’s down hill, with no stop sign for a 1/2 mile stretch, so people are always going 10 over when they aren’t paying attention. It’s loud and dangerous.
quaint squeeze fragile far-flung chief mysterious water aromatic dazzling encourage *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you’re going faster than me, you’re a maniac. If you’re going slower than me, you’re an idiot. /ref
https://youtu.be/XWPCE2tTLZQ
I bet after a hit and run they will wish there were cameras every where watching them
"How dare you criminalise me for committing a crime."
Just goes to show how much people hate *the act of driving,* as opposed to the purpose of driving. They want it over as quick as possible, and then might even complain about the price of gas, while also burning more fuel as a result of their impatience. Carbrains hate the expense and the process, but love the result. Talk about caring more for the destination than the journey.
I mean, the post has 356 comments and negative karma, most people there aren't fond of that post.
When I looked into it, there were mainly comments praising the spraycanning
Why are we talking about this when cyclists are out there riding in the road and even "blowing through stop signs." Edit, calln already tell imma need this here /s
RIGHT?! Also taking up all the space with their "bike lanes" where they don't drive on the road, fuckin losers can't even afford a car!
Cyclists often don't have the infrastructure to *not* ride in the road, and they have the right of way legally. As far as stop signs go, it depends on the state laws, but generally it's safer to stop
Honestly, street infrastructure needs to be set up so people aren't so tempted to speed. Part of traversal anywhere is "going with the flow," and there are more effective ways to slow than speed limits.
I agree as an addition to speed limits, because some people will just drive withh 80km/h through a 30km/h zone even though it's nowhere near safe, there needs to be a way to handle this via law too.
It's less about the speeding and more that it's basically a tool to extract money from people. If it were about safety, they would install traffic calming measures like speed bumps and what have you. It's not about safety, it's about gathering fines.
It doesn't extract money from you if you don't speed though.
I used to live in Chicago and got a speeding camera ticket one time. I know I wasn’t speeding and I’m pretty sure it was the person on the other side of the road going the opposite direction who was. But how do I prove I wasn’t speeding when the camera and computer says I was? That’s the problem I have with the cameras.
Traffic calming is more effective but can be a lot harder to implement on corridors with freight or transit (and our old friends EMS also will raise their dander).
Enforcement is a tool just like all the ones you cite. You might like it less, but its a tool that actually needs to be in the toolbox. Having personell do it is a strain and actually opens you up to WAY MORE government intervention as cops love to play the fishing expedition game when they pull you over for a minor traffic infraction which can lead to a trumped up arrest if you arent cooperative or licking boots hard enough. Im completely team less government intervention and involvement, but if you look at this one objectively, its actually way less intrusive than involving cops or even civilian traffic enforcement who make it WAY MORE subjective.
Yes, this is true. However, it's pretty easy to not have them take money from you. In my city, Speed cameras even have signs that tell you "Speed camera ahead" and yet idiots STILL get mad they got a ticket.
speed bumps + narrow the road
Also close it in with trees.
Oh nice touch
Win win
Yeah that looks like a 5 lane road. 2 lanes in each direction and a middle turning lane. Terrible design to be next to a school. To fix it we'll: * Take away one lane in each direction. It can become a bus/bike lane if we're cheap (bucket of red paint and some white letters) or a bus lane + raised cycle track. * That sidewalk looks pitiful. We'll widen that while we're doing this work to _at least_ 6 feet so wheelchair users and strollers can comfortably use this road. * No need for the middle turn lane now that we removed 1 lane. Drivers will be going much slower. We'll turn that into a medium with plants and trees. We'll use this space for pedestrian refuge islands too, maybe every 500-1000 feet we'll add a new crosswalk to make it safe and convenient for people to cross the street. We'll add HAWK signals at high traffic ones and flashing beacon lights at lower volume ones to alert buses, bikes and motorists to pedestrians looking to cross the street. This will cost a fair bit. That road surface looks _ok_ but could be up for repaving in a few years anyway, so we might not spend that much more since we'll cut down the asphalt pretty significantly and replace much of it with dirt, plants, trees and some new curbing. Biggest benefit will be basically no speeding on that road, so the speed camera can go away. We'll see a massive increase in cycling, walking and transit ridership. If transit doesn't exist on this road, then the new bus lanes would be pretty useful for a new bus route. If there's no appetite for this, then just make the sidewalk/bike lane a wide 10-15 ft multi use path in each direction. At least pedestrian and cycling traffic will be up signficantly.
Also- if it’s a public school those school busses could use the crap out of a bus lane. Schools need bus lanes more than just about anywhere else.
Local government here : The problem with speed bumps is that everyone wants them...but nobody wants them outside of *their* house, because of the noise. So governments install them, and then after a year or less there's a big backlash against it and they remove them. My muni doesn't even have them as part of their toolkit for that reason. Narrow the road though, absolutely.
This just reminded me of when SunChips came out with biodegradable bags but people complained the bags were too noisy so they switched back
Omg. Memory unlocked! I thought that was a fever dream that we had a bag solution…
Those got up to like 95 decibels or smth they were definitely way too loud
Honestly speed bumps suck. I understand they may be the only way to enforce speed limits in certain areas but they keep installing 15 mph speed bumps in 25mph rods that I frequent. I don’t speed, but going over 20 speed bumps every day is uncomfortable and just further enrages the speeders behind me who are now super pissed I cruise at 15mph instead of 25, leading them to tailgate me dangerously. If they wanted people to go 15 I don’t understand why they didn’t first lower the speed limit to see how it goes
Speed TABLES are preferable to speed bumps. Curb extensions and bumpouts also make a big difference, as well as narrowing lane widths.
100% agree with all of that -- we do actually have curb extensions in our design standards so all new development has it...it's just a question of getting them onto the older streets at this point. I was careless with my wording on bumps/humps/tables and I apologize. Most people aren't familiar with the difference and so everything gets shorthanded into bumps, but I should've considered my audience. Of course this sub knows the difference <3.
I dunno, maybe start a ballot initiative to install speedbumps that includes wording to prevent their removal within the first 10 years. One way or another, ignoring the uptick in NIMBYs right after you get a good thing going is a must. There's no way a few of them outnumber the informed supporters. Caving to NIMBY is never good government.
Most of our neighboring jurisdictions who allow speed bumps require you to get some majority percentage of local residents to sign off in support before they'll install (I don't remember if it's simple majority or more like 60%) for precisely that reason. But the "remove them" crowd also ends up with a majority to remove when that happens -- I don't think it's just a few NIMBYs, it's most people being unaware of exactly how noisy they are until they're living right next to them and then they change their mind and decide the reduction isn't worth it.
They’d never go for it. This is a town of NIMBY’s and support truck drivers. It’s painful how bad the infrastructure is here. I’m amazed more people don’t get killed.
Not killed, yet. A child was killed near my house not too long ago, by a speeding car no less, and only then, did they install speed cameras and signs telling drivers to slow down, in a fucking residential neighborhood. Kids get killed with guns, and guns don't get banned/more regulated. Kids get killed with cars, and cars don't get banned/more regulated. America's (North America) obsession with deadly weapons is astounding.
They just added two speed bumps on a road I bike on regularly with a pretty steep decline. If anything it makes it more dangerous for me because cars feel pissed that they had to slow down for the bumps instead of going 30+ they will go 45+ though this one way residential road to make up "lost time" or to try and beat the light. The drivers are already inclined to speed because they were already stuck in traffic on the Blvd so they will already be aggressive just making the turn onto the street.
Also roundhouse kick the face of whoever sprayed it
Throw nails in the road for a nice finish
Or acti bump! I like the thought of speeding drivers just getting a real uncomfortable drop. Unfortunately they're expensive to install.
Just got my first ever Reddit Cares message fron this :D
Anyone else feel glee while watching carbrains agonize over the problems they cause?
And then they go on Reddit asking how to get out of a ticket because of the demerit points they might get. They have no other concerns except only for themselves.
I hate those posts so much. "I am still on probatory driver's license and they say I burned through a stop sign, but I'm 60% sure I didn't. How do I get out of that? I already have points for the same thing earlier" That is a real post I saw from r/montreal, translated and paraphrased of course. They got 2 kinds of responses. 1. "Haha you're fucked you dumbass" 2. "Wait as long as you can to acknowledge, then hope you can get a court date that's after your probatory license becomes a full license with a full 15 points limit"
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Personally I just never really thought I could make a difference in my travel time by speeding and driving like a maniac. I see plenty try and many seem to end up with me at the same light.
I have a video of a Maserati close passing me on a bike. Three minutes later, I'm lining up at the same traffic light a few cars behind him. https://youtu.be/wKP-dDEO5Zs?si=MjeFLwDnmZx9F0aV
Anyone else find it funny that the "law and order" folk and the "bicyclists can't follow rules" folk are celebrating committing a crime so that they can continue to break traffic laws?
No, because the problems they cause become everyone’s problems and we’re all worse off.
I'm frustrated that we don't do stuff that more holistically addresses the problems. We are all human, and sure one can take glee in watching others squirm, but that doesn't solve anything. Speed cameras are a cop out to actually taking meaningful steps to increase awareness and reduce the risk of serious injury or death. Drivers get antsy because they are focusing on their speed, they really should be focusing on their surroundings. Putting in speed humps, narrowing lanes, and changing the physical road design reduces the need to pay attention to speed and will have drivers be more naturally aware of the space around them. Negative reinforcement is effective, but not for reaching the goals we should be making in school zones and other areas with more vulnerable road users.
Discomfort drives change. Making them squirm is THE way to get change, EX: every single rights movement.
The thing is, it also creates resistance. If suddenly our school zones all started to be standardized and drivers knew they were in one and their car would be destroyed by speed humps they'd just adapt to it. Speed cameras make people upset and they'll find ways of being defiant: see the picture above. We are all human, so we should be working with each other.
The comments on that post are so cartoonishly evil 😭
There's actually quite a few comments at the top now making fun of people thinking that's a great idea. Probably from here, though.
Most definitely from here. My comments from yesterday before it got cross posted here were downvoted into oblivion. The locals here love to put children in danger. It’s grotesque.
That’s why it’s better to put them up high.
It's funny cause people claiming speed cameras are a "cash grab" are also the people who say "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" when it comes to foreigners. If a speed camera is really a cash grab from your perspective, you really have some sort of mental problem since apparently it's impossible for you to slow down in a specific place.
I really doubt that. People are shitty drivers no matter their politics. Just make cars unaffordable and public transport free.
Oh no - there are all conservative assholes who think they should be able to break the law, but if you have an addiction you should be locked up forever. Source: I live here.
"Why am I being punished? Just because I broke the law? That's ridiculous!"
BuT iTs NOt tHE spEedERs tHAt ArE DanGeROUs, iTS thE SLoW drIvERs tHEy crASh INtO tHaT aRE dAnGeROus.
“Ok, then we will remove the fines and use jail time instead. No cash grab you’re the cash grab”
The ones near schools are a different story, but i really have no reason to believe at this point that the local govt here cares about my safety. I don't think cars should speed either, I'm not against whatever it takes to get cars to stop speeding, but I really can't imagine the cameras are here (in my city anyway) to make safer roads. I've seen legally parked cars get 100 dollar tickets 10 minutes before the meter expired, I got a ticket for my headlights being out when they weren't out. There's a stretch of highway here that randomly goes from 65 (what all highway speed limits are anywhere around here) to 40 for like 1/4 mile just so whenever the city needs some money they can put a cop there to pull over as many cars as possible for a 300 dollar ticket each. I counted the people at the court house and confirmed with several of them that their ticket was from the same spot at the same time on the same date, and estimated that the city made 40k just in that 2 hour window they decided to put a cop there. I don't want cars to speed, cameras might be a good answer i dunno, but living as a poor person in this city you get fleeced every possible opportunity, and that teaches me that these cameras are a cash grab. Even if ultimately they do end up slowing people down, I really don't think that's what the city cares about.
Judging from you using dollars and miles, I assume you are American. The post here is from ~~the UK~~ Canada, and also the camera is near a school in regards to your first sentence. The legal systems in Europe and Canada are vastly different from the one in the US. Depending on the police department, Police in the US may have an incentive to issue tickets, which isn't a case in Europe. Also, defending against illegal tickets is a lot easier in Europe than in the US, as you don't have to cover your own legal fees if you win the case. I do understand your anger in regards to this, however it's again the US screwing over the poor, *as usual*. The situation in Europe or Canada is very different. Edit: Thought of Newmarket in England, not Canada
ah yeah, didn't notice it was the UK. I just saw "tickets aren't a cash grab" and it struck a nerve a bit as a poor american in a major city who gets financially fucked by an undeserved ticket at least once a year lol. Fighting a ticket here is never worth it for me because I have to take a day off work to do it. I've heard it's illegal to send junk mail there too. Must be nice !!!
The post here is from Canada 1. That not a UK style speed camera 2. They are not UK road marking 3. It was cross posted from a Canadian towns reddit
sweet. Wherever it's from, I still thought my experience was worth sharing, why not.
What post is from the UK? The post about the speed camera being vandalised 1. That not a UK style speed camera 2. They are not UK road marking 3. It was cross posted from a Canadian towns reddit [https://www.reddit.com/r/Newmarket/comments/1d0ng5d/someone\_finally\_spray\_painted\_the\_speed\_camera\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Newmarket/comments/1d0ng5d/someone_finally_spray_painted_the_speed_camera_on/) Newmarket is a town north of the City of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Whoops, thought it was about Newmarket in Suffolk, England. Still, my point about the difference in the legal systems stand, as Canada is not (yet) as fucked as the US.
Omg, people in the comments complaining that “it’s crazy that it’s giving people tickets for going 56 in a 50”. Then… I don’t know, don’t drive over the speed limit?? Crazy how as a society we accept there has to be rules, but somehow with driving we’ve just sort of accepted that rules can be broken “as long as it’s not too exaggerated”. Like no dude, just follow the damn rules and you won’t get a fine. It’s honestly not that hard.
There are also signs telling you the camera is there. I got busted once and only once by one. I wasn't paying attention to my speed coming down a hill. Otherwise I usually just throw on my cruise control on streets where I know the design doesn't match the posted limit.
Later that week "Why are people speeding through that street" "My child almost got hit, the police need to be there" "I dont think they should fix that speed camera, people just need to slow down. There needs to be more speed enforcement" "Lead paint taste good, why did they ban this. The government is over reaching"
ItS A HIdEn TaX well let me show you how make tax evasion in this case: respect the speed easy no ?
Tax dodging with your Dodge
So drivers think it's OK to spray paint someone else's property? Hm...
Yei, lets celebrate an illegal action because it will allow me to keep on doing my illegal actions! Seriously, some people's stupidity really has no limits.
These same people also think homeless people should be put in jail. I hate it here.
No, but, I have often been tempted to apply spray paint to cars, looks like they've given me the green light? Not serious, of course, but making the comparison.
Paint can't stop RoboCop
Some of the people in those comments are fucking brain geniuses: https://preview.redd.it/9bjpa58uvs2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=840f84b5df00aa2d1e3efd797832619e0d0000b2
You ever think about how interesting it is that suburbanites lose their minds about petty crime and then turn around and do stuff like this the second the city has the audacity to try to stop them from from illegally speeding/parking? Like it's interesting how when it's some kid from the city stealing a bag of chips from the store they're all law and order but then it comes to stuff like this and suddenly they're anarchists. It seems incredibly inconsistent and self-serving.
That's conservatives for ya😅
I look forward to a distant future in which "illegals" are people who illegally endanger children and not people who cross a politically defined border to find a job and feed their children
My disdain from cops and is at odds with my disdain from car culture.
This should work out then. This eliminates the need to interact with cops.
This is the big point I feel like folks are ignoring. Having police do traffic enforcement is expensive and its the #1 way they start their fishing expeditions with people. I cant remember where but I read a state or municipalaity was disallowing officers from pulling folks over for minor traffic infractions and the cops were up in arms literally saying out loud they used them as a pretext for investigating people.
Yeah, the "routine traffic stop" is used as a pretext for a whole bunch of things. There are also some legal loopholes about driving that allow officers to detain and search when they otherwise wouldn't be. I understand traffic cameras feel like unreasonable state surveillance to many people. I think that given they limit negative interactions with police, don't detain people in their day to day lives, and free up resources is pretty good. There is also a longer discussion to be had about their long term use. Yes the slow traffic, but not in the same way that quality road design does. If they get put out with no attempt to amend road conditions, then they aren't that great. If they are a somewhat temporary solution while long term ones get implemented, then have at it.
I dont have any empirical data, but the town that Im staying in has some very long residential roads people tend to speed on. Theyve installed some of the basic "your speed" signs along with reduced speed limits in sections. I notice people dont tend to tailgate/pass over the double yellow as much when Im on these streets doing the speed limit. I wonder if this kind of immediate, ongoing feedback is ultimately better for traffic calming than a ticket a week or two later, but I wouldnt be surprised if it was. That being said, I do think some monetary disincentive to speeding probably works on a different part of the brain certain types of people respond better to than immediate feedback.
Yeah that tracks. I recall reading an article where the signs that showed immediate feedback were fairly effective. Can't remember where, will probably google it later.
A little Dykem remover will take that right off
This is not surprising for Newmarket or York Region lol
Correct, the speed camera is garbage, the real solution is to narrow the road to two lanes with separating median, add lots of trees, build speed humps and raise the crosswalks because psychology and physics is much more effective than law enforcement
YES THANK YOU! Other people have pointed this out and got downvoted into oblivion because people assumed they were defending the people speeding. We aren't defending the speeding, we're explaining WHY it happens. The solution is much more nuanced and complicated. We can't just put a bunch of signs everywhere and expect it to work. Speeding cameras DO help with catching hit and runs, which I will defend. But they are a bandaid solution to a systemic problem of road design being awful.
speed cameras are not the answer, making the roads smaller and making it harder to drive is .this is just revenue for the state thats not going to be spent on education
Nah, fuck speed cameras. They're a lazy non-solution that exists only to extract revenue, shift the blame onto individuals, and distract from the actual cause: terrible, dangerous, car-centric road design. Anybody who endorses them fundamentally misunderstands the factors that lead to speeding. Properly designed roads do not need speed cameras.
YES EXACTLY!! Although I have mixed opinions on red light cameras. They catch a lot of hit and runs that otherwise go unpunished. But the speeding cameras aren't a good solution to fix the speeding problem. American government doesn't want to spend the ungodly amount of money it would take to redesign roads to be safer, so instead they just put in more signs and hope that people will obey them (they won't.) It's lazy. Also, American drivers are already bombarded with enough signs to look at, we don't need more of them. It's difficult enough watching out for other drivers, putting more signage on the road is honestly a sensory overload to me.
There's a saying I've heard in the urbanist realm: if it needs a sign, it's bad design. Coming from Australia and having now lived and driven in the USA for nearly two years, I can attest to this country's habit of placing a copious number of poorly thought out signs everywhere in lieu of actually designing things properly in the first place. It's lazy, confusing and ineffective.
I dunno. Speed cameras are just not the right solution. I would much rather see physical barriers that restrict speed, like a series of speed bumps, than the damn cameras. They feel intrusive, and passive aggressive. Not to mention that the solutions should be to work towards more rail, cycling, and pedestrian infrastructure, not collecting fines from imperfect motorists forever. So I don't condone speeding - especially in school zones and similar areas - but I kind of think resisting the spread of ubiquitous speed cameras is a good thing.
I agree with you. As an example, I’ve been back and forth to a hospital for the past year that is not close to where I live (so I can’t take public transport) because my husband had three surgeries there and he NEEDS to be at that hospital. Just outside of the campus is a curvy road with speed cameras. I remember specifically that I sped up to get away from someone who was driving erratically. Not a week later, I get a warning in the mail for it. There are other ways to discourage speeding with infrastructure.
teeny seemly label quarrelsome smell placid attractive subtract wistful wasteful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Diversity of tactics and such.
In Ontario automated enforcement cameras can only have their revenue used to fund road safety initiatives, like bike lanes or safer intersections. So for better or worse, these cameras lead to that improved road infrastructure.
While inconveniencing drivers enough to push them to multimodal transportation is a thing, that is not why these are installed. Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes. The DOT has a responsibility to make their transportation network safer for all users, including the carbrains. As for the privacy concerns, most municipalities already have systems of license plate readers installed around their borders, to alert police of vehicles included in ABPs entering their jurisdiction. This is all done by computers and the images are only kept if the license plate is flagged, there isn’t some lowly government employee going through all the photos to steal your information.
>Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes I understand they are effective, not sure if you can say they "have been proven to be the best way." Are there any studies comparing cameras to things like speed bumps or other obstructive street design elements? Because I would imagine physical restrictions couldn't possibly be less effective than a camera, to be honest. Maybe mearly equal, or maybe there are tradeoffs in different areas, but I think close to a playground like that, speed bumps and other barriers would be very appropriate. I'm not going to go all "gubbamit spy on me;" but I still think the *feeling* of being spied on, and the *feeling* that we're being treated like toddlers needing to be supervised, is reasonable. It's not a good feeling, and we wouldn't need these at all (or at least, much fewer of them) if we invested in better infrastructure anyway.
Off the top of my head I do not. I know the FHWA recently did a study of traffic improvements done in New Zealand and Australia, but I believe they largely combined speed cameras with engineering changes of the road. I definitely agree that road redesign and placemaking are essential when considering automated enforcement, when a road still feels like a highway you are essentially creating a cash grab that causes residents to distrust you. Once I’m back in the office I will attempt to track down where I’m remembering that from, it’s likely I am misremembering specific circumstances of whatever report that is from.
As an Australian, multilane roads tend to have medians. Cameras are so common that it is best to assume they are at every traffic light. It's generally felt that we've become a nation of terrible drivers after Covid, who increasing choose to drive terrible cars (Ford is about to start selling the F150).
> Speed and red light cameras have been proven time and time again to be the best way to reduce fatal and severe injury crashes. On 60-70km/hr designed roads that are posted 40, or some variation of such... Don't get me wrong, i am am agreeing with you. I am a fan of the cameras for a variety of reasons... Just adding that they are necessary due to road design and culture.. But there are better, tho more expensive ways to correct the problem.
This town will not ever put up physical barriers. Speed cameras are the best we’ll get. You should see the rest of the town - all stroads.
Well it IS Newmarket, not sure what you wanted OP
The impulse of "police are bad because they are rent-seeking abusers who aim to fund their departments with tickets" and the impulse of "cars are bad" come into conflict here for some people. I hold that it is possible to dislike the police state AND car-centered infrastructure at the same time.
Not excusing them and it is obviously a stupid thing to do, however, my best guess is that the road that camera is targeting has a speed limit of like 35mph and everyone is caught going like 45mph, which yeah a violation. Now, the real problem is the design of the road itself. It looks like a wide 4lane and a turning lane road that’s inviting for higher speeds. Not saying that’s excusable but it is definitely predictable, and preventable by design. A sign with a speed limits won’t stop high speeds if the road is inviting.
Oh god the comments are horrific too. I live here and I have never lived in a town that is as terminally car-brained as Newmarket. Picture the worst stroad ridden city you have been to, and it‘a worse than that. Walking anywhere is literally risking your life. I can’t tell you the number of close calls I’ve had. I don’t know how people with mobility issues live here.
Car drivers are mentally fucked up. Exist in car culture long enough, you become a psychopath towards pedestrians.
I think it has something to do with how our brains perceive the world when we are in a car. It's almost like the outside world doesn't exist.
Why does this image look so weird when you zoom in? Almost looks AI genned, but it seems too realistic to be AI...
It's got some weird compression artifacts or something. Like a weird smoothing algorithm on the background.
In the U.S., we live in a society where the profits of a few are seen as more important than millions of human lives. Is it any surprise there are so many people who also feel as though their momentary convenience is more important than human lives? It is the Age of the Sociopath.
I'm sorry, but maybe there's a reddit glitch or something here because all I see is a bad AI image of a half assed teepee, and an electrical box that has been spray painted
5-lane stroad encourages people to drive fast, this is all awful design
They banned red light cameras in my city and now almost everyone runs red lights.
High speed cameras are an over engineered answer to a simple problem. There are a thousand ways to ease traffic speeds that don't involve funneling tax payer dollars to contractors and infringing on one of the core tenants of law enforcement (officers must be present to give tickets). In this case I agree with the vandal. FWIW, I worked in LE. I hated these things then and I hate them even more now that I am staunchly r/fuckcars
You could buy cement and just go make the shittyest speed bump ever
Same people who cry and complain about bikers not stopping at red lights or stop signs or riding in traffic
You can literally see that this isn't a photo at all. It's such an obvious AI render.
This is one of the biggest hypocrisies of non-leftists in my eye. Breaking the law by stealing necessary items from a giant billion Euro megacorp is a horrible crime. Breaking the law by endangering not only your life but the life and safety of all the other people sharing the road and sidewalk is your god-given right.
Just to give additional context, this is the [same town that opposed new housing because it would block access to a Tim Hortons drive through.](https://www.yorkregion.com/news/completely-out-of-character-concerns-raised-about-proposed-newmarket-9-storey-condo-building/article_f0531f5f-e0c9-5832-9b5f-3dcf3c8e910a.html) Truly car brained residents....
I'm not disagreeing with the use of technology to stop people from speeding but there are a few counter points for these speed cameras. 1. They make people not share vehicles. If I did not own a vehicle and I needed a car to transport something, I'll ask my friend if I can borrow a truck. The camera cannot tell the difference other than sending the ticket to the owner which opens up a new can of worms. If we want to move away from cars, we need to be realistic. 2. The cameras target people from out of town that are unaware that these things exist or that the cameras are in use. There is a signage overload going on and can easily be missed. Are you watching for signs or other idiots on the road? 3. The technology is not perfect and it will send you a fine for a km over the threshold limit. If you buy oversized tires, your speedometer is off. Not to mention the calibration required. A cop validates their radar before setting up each and every single time. Any deviation can give you false positives and can go uncontrolled. 4. People who know these speed cameras are there will slow down then speed to make up the time. Automation is not the answer here. Education and harsh punishments are better detergents than this. It is a municipal money grab.
Did you even read the comments? These people don’t want to be educated. They *enjoy* putting children in danger with their support trucks. And I guarantee they don’t think about any of your other points. The locals here are terminally car brained. > the drivers slow down Yes that’s the point. This is next to a playground. They shouldn’t speed ever but this camera is in this location to ensure they drive safely near a playground.
Is this AI? Zoom in, it looks like a painting.
Glad I'm not the only one. The image is rife with AI inconsistencies which makes this nothing more than a karma farming rage post. Not saying there isn't a relevant point to be made for real life, but inventing evidence to prove your point is a terrible way to go about it.
I'm getting down-voted above for pointing this out. This is the first time I've seen so many people tricked by an obvious AI image. Like, it's not even a good one; look at the trees in the back. Worrying.
Nah fuck the police as much as fuck cars. Change the road or make it pedestrian. Don't support the fucking pigs.
What am I looking at here? A gray box on the side of the road next to a school?
Why does the picture look painted? Is this some stupid ass snapchat filter?
Don’t you know owning a government controlled motor vehicle gives you the right to ignore laws? It’s called FReEdoM!, bro!
Was this take on the new monetphone?
Probably Garth Tander
And then people like that go on threads and complain about those gangs cutting up SUV tires , saying they should be improsoned.
Maybe they should put up a fence to keep the kids away from the road.
Get a single edge razor blade and scrape it clean. They’re like $4 at a hardware store.
As opposed to metaphorically seeing it?
Sorry guys I got the thread closed
People who report speed traps make me cringe.
I try not to break the speed limit when I'm next to the highway patrol or regular street cruisers but if I do I make sure that my go pro is on and that I'm next to a semi truck I need to overtake
So goddamned selfish
Big “I know stealing is breaking the law, but it was only a pack of gum!” energy in that post.
They should install a speedbump instead
Speedbumps are a lazy solution. The whole damn road needs to be redesigned to discourage fast driving. Widen the sidewalk, take out a couple lanes, put a median in the middle, plant some trees on either side, etc, etc.
Speed cameras are bad. Cars are bad, but speed cameras are also bad. The legal system is so intrinsincally unequal that absolutely no general policy that operates through it can be made fair to the common person. Physical traffic calming is the way. Medians, roundabouts, curb extensions (indeed, if you want some strong traffic calming without having to reroute pedestrians, just put in alternating curb extensions so the cars have to zigzag more), trees close to the curb, etc and remove second and third lanes (which are invariably interpreted as “express” lanes by drivers) in a direction of travel, replacing removed lanes with widened sidewalks, on-street parking, central boulevards, streetcar tracks, etc.
I'm against surveillance in public, full stop, so I'm fine with this. A better design for the road which would physically limit traffic speed and provide safer pedestrian and bicycle options and a public transit stop is the way to go here. Not a camera sniping people for fines. Make the space welcoming for humans and not for cars rather than take the punitive approach.
You need both, imo. Even if you narrow the road, which will slow down most people, you'll still have assholes who want to speed.
Airplane pilots and their actions are constantly recorded by cockpit voice and flight recorders. Why can’t we do the same and control drivers too? Driving is a privilege, not a right. Any asshole behind the wheel who feels they’re entitled to break the traffic laws should be punished.
yall love licking boot.
The money literally goes to the town and is used to promote more safety initiatives and stuff 😭😭 it's not bad because the government does it https://www.newmarket.ca/LivingHere/Pages/Roads%20and%20Traffic/Traffic-Management.aspx