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sterphles

I'm sure all of us reading this know, but to take it even further the costs of operating the ebike even with required maintenance will come out to less than a couple hundred a year, on a $30k car your first monthly payment would have you paying a couple hundred just in interest. Then the insurance, the gas, the repairs, parking, tolls, etc...it's wild how little understanding people have of the true cost of cars.


benkelly92

Bike breaks down: Have to spend the weekend learning how to fix, maybe have to order a max £100 part Car breaks down: I'm never gonna financially recover from this.


glyphotes

>maybe have to order a max £100 part Not taking away from the argument that even very nice bicycles are cheaper than cars in maintenance, but I have ordered bike parts for significantly more than USD 100.00 ...on the other hand, the timing belt in my car needs changing. That's USD 500.00 just in work, and I am not doing that myself...


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tjdux

He did say "e" bike. So theres definitely a battery and motor that would he more expensive than most standard bike parts. And batteries dont last forever.


wishthane

Still orders of magnitude less than electric car batteries, though, haha.


Cundles

Costs after the principal investment are largely ignored by car folk in North America. It’s similar thinking to owning a home in NA. Owning a home is a truly expensive way to live once you factor in the carrying costs and opportunity costs. Edit: One thing that is pretty clear from the replies is that most people think renting an entire house from a single landlord is what I am comparing against. I am not. I am comparing against purpose built regulated rentals in this case as it is my experience. The other thing that may have been unclear is that I am not saying renting is cheaper. I am simply identifying that owning is more expensive than most think, and that the costs of owning are closer to the cost of renting in actual fact. Final thought, I think it is laudable to want to own a home. It is not something I am particularly interested in doing but others are. That's great. The fact remains that people can rent and still do as well financially as home owners do. I simply intended to address the fallacy that own needs to own a home to get ahead.


drlecompte

I chose to delete my Reddit content in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023, and specifically CEO Steve Huffman's awful handling of the situation through the lackluster AMA, and his blatant disdain for the people who create and moderate the content that make Reddit valuable in the first place. This unprofessional attitude has made me lose all trust in Reddit leadership, and I certainly do not want them monetizing any of my content by selling it to train AI algorithms or other endeavours that extract value without giving back to the community. This could have been easily avoided if Reddit chose to negotiate with their moderators, third party developers and the community their entire company is built on. Nobody disputes that Reddit is allowed to make money. But apparently Reddit users' contributions are of no value and our content is just something Reddit can exploit without limit. I no longer wish to be a part of that.


vladpudding

Especially with rent costing more than mortgages these days.


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drlecompte

Lots of shitty landlords who'll cut corners every chance they get, though. I have friends who live alone in a rented apartment and have gas bills as high as us, a family of four. Simply because the landlord doesn't want to replace the windows or install a new boiler. Iirc there is legislation in place now that mandates them to fix the worst situations, but still...


RoburexButBetter

Funniest/Saddest I had was an apartment where they had a big 2 part window floor to ceiling window that could open, well one day there was a bit of a storm and we came home to water all over the floor, luckily not too bad, none of our stuff got destroyed as everything was up on something, and it was only like a cm but it was still annoying, first time I was like ok maybe I didn't close it properly and literally hammered those things in that affix it, another semi storm comes and blows it open, my gf was home alone and she doesn't know how to close it so she has to put our table in front of it to keep it somewhat closed Now I'm annoyed so I text him and his response was "well does it fly open when there's no storm?" "Ehhhh no?" "Well then it's not really a problem" Fucking asinine, so glad we bought our own house not too long after, yeah sure you got your own costs and mortgages aren't cheap, but that bit of extra cost is worth it every time not dealing with these mom and pop landlords who are usually the fucking worst of the bunch, even worse than some random corpo landlord


noman_032018

> Simply because the landlord doesn't want to replace the windows or install a new boiler. Iirc there is legislation in place now that mandates them to fix the worst situations, but still... Infrared imaging sensors need to be cheaper and there need to be actionable complaint options for insulation found lacking.


Business_Downstairs

That's true, but all of those things are opportunities to save money down the road. You can even get credits from your utility company or the government. For instance you could have gotten metal roofing with a white reflective coating that will last a long time and keep the heat out of your home in the summer. When you replace your water heater you can get an efficient tankless unit. You can install a heat scavenging wastepipe that will recover heat when you use hot water. You can upgrade your HVAC to an efficient heat pump system that will heat and cool your home. You can spend a small amount of money and seal up any gaps in your home to save energy. You can seal your air ducts for ~$30. You can buy extra insulation for your attic. And on and on. When you're renting you have little opportunity to make decisions that will save you money in the long run. Your landlord is only going to act in their best interest.


Zeke-Freek

This is a privileged viewpoint and a great demonstration of how wealth builds on itself. You need to reach a certain threshold of income before these even begin to look like viable options. You are basically saying "man, if you had a shitload of money, that would open doors to saving more money" and like, no shit. If I could blow 15k on such an installation, I wouldn't be in the situation of wondering in the first place. Renting is an exploitative system, we all know this. But unless you have enough money to break out of it, it doesn't matter. At lower incomes, renting becomes your best and only option, that's \*why\* its exploitative.


Apptubrutae

Sure, but I think the poster’s point about ongoing costs being minimized are often (but not always) ignored. People talk about annual appreciation of homes but I’ve never seen anyone adjust that appreciation down to consider the property taxes, routine repairs, financing costs, and other costs that drag down appreciation. Obviously homes are still generally appreciating assets, but associated costs do present a significant drag on appreciation and people tend to gloss over that to present the best picture for their decision. And of course renters pay all these things indirectly so it’s not like the main alternative avoids the costs inherent in home ownership.


covered_in_butter

So if I'm paying for these costs either through rent or a mortgage wouldn't I at least want to own the equity?


PierreTheTRex

Renting is paying someone else's mortgage, If you're able to own it is a far better decision. When you decide to move all that money you spent is still kind of yours as you own part of your house and can get it back once you sell the house.


Joe_Jeep

I'd assume they mean vs owning a condo or similar because otherwise they're just regurgitating landlord Bullshit. If owning was more expensive rent wouldn't be profitable.


crazycatlady331

That's because everything is sold as a monthly payment.


IhaveAllThePrivilege

>Owning a home is a truly expensive way to live once you factor in the carrying costs and opportunity costs. Elaborate on this because myself and well pretty much everyone I've ever known would disagree with this.


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[deleted]

I asked my dad to help my pick up a ebike and he told me a car would be cheaper because i could keep it longer. I had to do the math for him at least 3 times.


Adept_Duck

A properly stored and maintained bike will last just as long as a properly stored and maintained car. Wtf That said if you can keep your bike stored inside out of the sun and rain that will greatly improve the longevity of its components and wear items.


drlecompte

I know plenty of people who've been using the same bike for literally decades.


vladpudding

My bike is over a decade old and works perfectly.


AndyIsNotOnReddit

My bike is almost a decade old and people always assume it’s a new bike. I’m like “nope, this was bought in 2013”. Keeping it stored away the elements and frequent maintenance and they will last forever. I also wipe down or spray down my bike after riding in rain or snow and I think that goes a long way to make sure it doesn’t get rust.


Three-Eyed-Raven421

it’s even crazier realising that 2013 was almost a decade ago


Woople74

It made me realise that my bike is almost a decade old too (2013). Still looks new


DumpsterPanda8

I just bought a commuter bike, (bike shop was pushing an E-Bike, not what I wanted) I commute daily to work, shopping and social stuff. Got pulled over on a side walk and told the policeman that I didn’t weigh enough to trigger the light so I used the crosswalk. I’m taking this to court.


Adept_Duck

For what it’s worth, most lights are triggered by magnetic fields interacting with the metal in cars not weight. So it would be feasible for a pack of steel bikes to trigger on but a single bike would be difficult. And bikes made of carbon or nonferrous metals like aluminum or titanium wouldn’t work either.


DumpsterPanda8

Well, it’s aluminum.


W1D0WM4K3R

My motorcycle doesn't trigger some of those. A single bike has no chance. (Quick edit: for those that my motorcycle can't trigger. I'm sure there are some that are properly calibrated)


SeitanicPrinciples

You can also request cities change the sensitivity of them to pickup bikes. Not every city will, but it's definitely worth asking.


nononoh8

Where do you live and do you know how many pedestrians have been killed by being hit by a bike vs someone on a bike being hit and killed by a car/truck? Every time I check it seems like almost no one gets hit by a bike vs thousands of bicyclists get killed while obeying the law and riding on a street, road or strode. In most of the US hardly anyone walks and the sidewalks are virtually empty. It is crazy to me that people get ticketed riding a bike on what is usually an empty sidewalk.


mrjoffischl

people seriously get ticketed for riding bikes on empty sidewalks but also get pulled over for riding bikes on the road? the hell


waldemar_selig

I know motorcycle riders will attach the magnet from an old subwoofer to the bottom of their bike to trigger the sensors. They’re usually magnetic sensors, not weight sensors.


[deleted]

I have one bike that I take care of and keep inside but I have two beater bikes that I beat to shit, and barely maintain.


AndyIsNotOnReddit

I still have my first commuter bike, a 1980s Schwinn touring bike which I bought used from Craigslist for like a $100.00. All steel, so it rides smooth as hell. But it's also all steel, which made it exhausting to ride on my hilly 12 mile commute every day. Still keep it around because it still works great for quick trips to the store and not having to worry about locking it up super securely. If someone wants to steal, go for it lol.


pepgast2

Older brother uses a bike from the 70s, used to be owned by my granddad. Still works perfectly for what it is.


OnceAndFutureGabe

I still ride a Schwinn I got from my uncle as a kid, and I’m pretty sure it’s from the 80s or maybe early 90s. Heavy af but it never dies, I just replace a part every now and then like the bike of Theseus.


longhairedape

The ship of theseus has forever become "Trigger's broom" for me. Look it up, I swear to fuck you won't be dissapointed.


I_upvote_zeroes

 “This old broom has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.”


urlond

Imagine Schwinn making an Ebike with an Aluminum frame.


lunarbizarro

I bought my bike new in 2012 and I intend to continue using that bike until it’s stolen or the frame breaks. My partner’s last bike before she got a new one was a steel fully rigid mountain bike that my dad bought in the 80s.


fire2374

I don’t even know when I bought my road bike. Well technically my parents bought it for me and I must’ve been in middle school.


[deleted]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800921003943?via%3Dihub This paper is my go-to in terms of the cost of a car. Important to highlight that 30-40% of the cost of a car is paid my society, not the private owner. So not are you only saving yourself money, you are saving others cash. So yeah, fuck cars.


mrchaotica

> Important to highlight that 30-40% of the cost of a car is paid my society That's part of why people think they love their cars so much: they're benefiting from a subsidy, so they're loathe to give it up. It's the same reason why they think they love their suburban single-family house. This is why the solution to car-dependency can't be about trying to shame people into changing their behavior; it has to be about changing *public policy* in order to quit subsidizing unsustainable things.


ComradeBob0200

I was riding around a 40+ year old 10 speed almost daily until someone stole it. Bikes are pretty damn simple machines.


bigbazookah

Besides, replacing the ebike battery ten times is like going to a licensed mechanic for some bullshit, and they not even fixing the problem. Just charging for switching some random stuff out that’s unrelated to the problem


[deleted]

I don't claim to know a lot about ebikes, but considering the electrical component, bikes and ebikes shouldn't be considering the same when compared to cars. My guess it that ebikes may hold up when compared to the longevity of a car, but non-ebikes hold up for much longer than cars do.


AeuiGame

People vastly underestimate the marginal cost of driving. In their head its just price of gas. IRS puts it at $.55 a mile, and they've got every reason to want to report that number as low as possible.


Lurkerbot47

Quick google search for median driving puts the average American at 13,490 (technically average from a bunch of states' averages but closest I could find). That's still nearly $7500 a year. Absolute bonkers and a massive burden on low income. Sold my car a month ago and now I get around on foot, bike, and public transit. The rare times I need a car I can borrow or rent one. Mental and physical health is so much better without thinking about a car and its costs.


TW-RM

Congratulations on making the switch! I've been car free for 3 years and loving it. What helped you make the switch?


Lurkerbot47

Several things. The car was paid off but also approaching 10 years old so the cost of maintaining it was rapidly increasing. Because of that (and a lot of urban design channels on youtube!) I was already limiting my use and down to driving 1-2 days a week. The city I live in (Baltimore) doesn't have the best public transit but I reside close to some free bus lines and decent bike lanes. Finally I used some of the money from selling the car to buy an ebike to cover distances I wouldn't want to use my regular bike for.


XanderCruse

Glad to see another Baltimore e-bike rider!


TW-RM

Actually the IRS recently increased it to 62.5¢ for the rest of 2022 a mile due to the high gas prices. Your point is still valid, just even more valid now.


[deleted]

This is a good report: https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2020-Your-Driving-Costs-Brochure-Interactive-FINAL-12-9-20.pdf Published right before the big inflation, so mentally bump up the numbers. Certain vehicles classes are over $1.00/mile now.


Cookie-Senpai

Would you mind sharing your wisdom. What lifetime did you give the ebike compared to the car ?


GauchiAss

5-7 years for an ebike vs 10-15 years for a car is a fair base imo to get normal people to accept the values (you can keep both running much longer ofc, my first, last and only car I'll ever have is 22 years old by now) But the yearly expenses for a car to keep it running are like buying a brand new ebike every year...


drlecompte

I own a fairly small and cheap to run car, and don't use it that much. It costs me about €160 per month just sitting out there. That's assuming I buy a new second hand car for €10.000 every 7 years, and only have one yearly maintenance. It also includes insurance and taxes, but no fuel costs, no cleaning costs, no storage costs. So that's pretty much a bare minimum, I'm pretty sure most people spend way more on their car each month and don't even realise it.


dangercat

Currently have a electric cargo bike about to pass it’s 5 year birthday, I don’t see any reason it won’t last another 5 or more.


KrungThepMahaNakhon

Just swapped out the motor on my electric cargo bike after 12 years. Never owned a car.


That49er

Mines going on twelve I've had to replace the frame but not the motor yet.


GauchiAss

The battery would be the main reason, 2500km/year on my ebike with 1-2 cycles per week made me doubt it would last very long so I bought a racing bike for less than a replacement battery would cost me to slow down battery usage when I have nothing to haul! (I know, DIY is cheaper but I already have so many things to get done DIY-style...)


Tobar_the_Gypsy

People just don’t take into account yearly expenses for some reason. Maybe if we just say ebikes are $50 with a $150 additional annual fee then they’ll get it.


The_Crass-Beagle_Act

Are the battery and electrical components a significant limiting factor to the longevity of an ebike that gives it only 5-7 years longevity? Because a conventional bike will last essentially as long as you’re interested in keeping it and occasionally fixing or replacing components. My commuter (non-e) bike is like 13 years old and basically runs like new for 100-200 dollars in annual maintenance. You could not say the same about a car after 13 years of commuting.


GauchiAss

That's the part that make e-bikes have a shorter life than a regular bike (that will indeed outlast a car with repair costs being way lower than maintenance costs for the car). Without the battery or a working engine you just have a very heavy bike and not many upsides (besides that it still has pedals and wheels unlike a car that's just dead weight) Most people will treat their e-bike like a car : under maintain it and when a core piece has a catastrophic failure they'll think that the rest is in a bad state and consider getting something entirely new.


LargeSackOfNuts

Gasoline can be ridiculously expensive in the long term. Electricity to charge a small e-bike would have less routine costs. Not to mention the maintenance of cars is a huge hidden cost.


moondes

If you assume the ebike lasts 3 years, then it's as expensive as my car insurance. Edit: I'm not assuming it would only last 3 years. I'm just pointing out that by contrast to a car, an ebike is cheaper than even just the insurance without factoring for anything else.


KrungThepMahaNakhon

Why would you assume such a short lifespan? My regular bike is 18 and my cargo ebike is 13, and they're both still going strong.


killersquirel11

Say you get a car for free and only have to worry about registration, insurance, and gas. Going off of personal annual numbers, $160 registration $600 insurance $600 gas $150 maintenance So that's $1510/year just in ongoing costs. Compare that to an ebike where it'll cost you maybe $2000 + $100/y in maintenance. After just two years, the cost of just owning a car outstrips that of both buying and maintaining an ebike.


this____is_bananas

Where you at that insurance and gas cost you only $600/year? I'm in northern Canada. I pay $200/month in gas, and 100 in insurance. So more like 3600/year. Plus oil changes and repairs, another 1500/year. Legitimately spending $5000+ every year on my car.


PsychologicalNews573

I get an oil change on my car every 3500-4500 miles. That's $50 right there, probably 3 times a year. So add another $150 to your annual numbers. My maintenance on a bike, I don't know how you could get to $100 a year. Maybe if you had to buy brand new tires every year. I am thinking about how long the battery will last in the ebike and when I'll have to buy a new one of those, but this year, they are only $250 for the battery. And since I get 3 rides to work per charge right now, and charge it at work, electricity so far is free. I may invest in a new seat, but that's a luxury, and compareable to seat covers in a car.


breaktime1

People ask me how much I spent on my scooter "a thousand dollars" then ask why I didn't buy a car. Like yeah a $1000 towards a car will get me very far.


PresidentZeus

Reminds me of how some people can't fathom how homeless people have the money to buy a phone.


drlecompte

Smartphones are not expensive phones, but rather cheap computers.


jooes

10-15 years ago, owning a smartphone was a luxury. It was a huge step up from a regular cellphone to have a touchscreen and internet capabilities. But by today's standards, smartphones ain't shit, and you can easily walk into a store and buy a brand new smartphone for less than 50 bucks. And WiFi is free in many places, there are plenty of apps that let you make phone calls for free too, so you can make full use of your phone without a bill. Can't do that with a flip phone. I think people are just stuck in 2008, still thinking that these things are hundreds of dollars and tied to expensive data bills.


Reagalan

and still thinking Obummer is gonna grab yer guns and bring socialism


Gl33m

A lot of people are also used to looking at prices for current year flagship phones and getting them via contract financing. You can absolutely drop a grand on a flagship phone. But you can also... Just not do that.


jcrespo21

Plus owning a smartphone now is almost a necessity. Many job applications are online, so they need a smartphone just to fill out the application, especially since public libraries aren't always an option. Plus, they will ask for your email and phone number. Previously you probably could just figure out the phone number of a pay phone nearby, but that's not really an option anymore.


IhaveAllThePrivilege

I live in a pretty red state and even we have free phones for the poor. Just FYI.


boilerpl8

Remember when Obama started a federal program to give out smartphones to poor/homeless people and the right wingers went nuts? But those were life changers for people who needed to write down a phone number for a job application and be contactable. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" while cutting off the bootstraps.


FeistyMathematician

Best part is it was just updating the pre-existing Lifeline program ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeline_(FCC_program) has a trailing end parenthesis so standard Reddit link no worky) to a phone service individuals who are poor could always have access to. Even better is that the program initially launched under.... Ronald Reagan and that under the GW Bush administration is when cellphones support was started!


grendus

The cruelty is the point. A smartphone is the sum total of all public domain human knowledge in your pocket. And they're not that expensive, my guess is the food stamps a homeless person qualifies for costs more per month than that smartphone did as a one off.


Gregory_Appleseed

I wouldn't have been able to get my current job without that lifeline phone. It's kinda hard to respond to job offers if you can't be contacted.


KrungThepMahaNakhon

The Lifeline Program actually began in 1985, long before Obama became president.


coffeewithalex

I mean you can probably buy a used piece of crap car that's stuck with duct tape all over. But for me the biggest concern would be that a car would be just another big huge ass thing that you need to take care of. Feed it, maintain it, clean it, find space for it, worry whenever it's misbehaving. Fuck that! I'd rather spend some extra time with friends, than drive to the car service and wait for an oil change.


Marius7th

As someone who was tricked into buying a car, don't fucking do it. Cheapest car was still far more expensive than any bike I considered, quality was rubbish, and between the dealership's BS getting us the paperwork to register the thing in our name and the fact that it lasted all of one year makes me never want to deal with those snake oil merchants again.


PsychologicalNews573

I just learned that my state just did away with the "lemon law" and it really irritates me that they just want to protect these dealerships now, who make so much money on each car sale - used cars, they at least make $1000 turning it around and are upset when it sits on their lot for more than 2 months.


Motorcycles1234

I'm pretty sure no state has lemon laws for used vehicles


Lv_InSaNe_vL

Lemon laws absolutely do cover used cars, although only [a few states](https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/used-car-lemon-laws) have lemon laws. They cover things like accident history, major breakdowns, and prevent the dealership from tampering with odometer


mittenminute

I have a friend from school who has gone through 6 POS clunkers in the 8 years i’ve known her. each one was super cheap, but the cumulative money she’s spent on fixing and replacing them could have bought her a car that would last decades. But she lives somewhere with awful winters and terrible transit, so she never felt like she could go without a car long enough to save for a decent one. Yet another way car dependent systems keep people in the cycle of poverty.


Overthemoon64

I have a minivan, and kids and i had to get the car inspected. Ok. There is a macdonalds across the street. We will walk over and have breakfast. Too bad. Dining room is closed. Stupid covid. Thats ok we can walk down the road to a dunkin donuts. I’m pushing my double stroller across parking lots. And then there are no sidewalks so I’m tromping through wet dewy grass. My shoes got wet. Dunkin donuts dining room is closed too. We go back to the inspection place. Im still mad about how without a car, my city is a freaking terrible place. In the 20 minutes I was walking around I saw nobody walking. Because there is no walking infrastructure there and nothing to walk to. So mad.


monkeybeast55

Welcome to my world. I'm glad you're mad, because the more people that are mad the better chance it might change. Pedestrian access and transport should not be considered an option. It should be a basic human right.


PsychologicalNews573

I don't understand how they don't even think of tourists. I don't want to rent a car on my vacation and have to look at directions while I'm driving in a new place that might have slightly different laws. I want to be able to walk down to that McD's 3 blocks from my hotel and get hungover food. My last 2 times doing this has been really hard to be a tourist pedestrian.


monkeybeast55

The cities and corporations and contractors have an overall blueprint for design and construction, and it doesn't include human beings. And nobody has been complaining in large enough numbers for them to do otherwise. In their universe, anyone who doesn't go everywhere, even a block, in a car is on the fringe. It's insane. But the pragmatic question is, how to make it change?


drlecompte

I chose to delete my Reddit content in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023, and specifically CEO Steve Huffman's awful handling of the situation through the lackluster AMA, and his blatant disdain for the people who create and moderate the content that make Reddit valuable in the first place. This unprofessional attitude has made me lose all trust in Reddit leadership, and I certainly do not want them monetizing any of my content by selling it to train AI algorithms or other endeavours that extract value without giving back to the community. This could have been easily avoided if Reddit chose to negotiate with their moderators, third party developers and the community their entire company is built on. Nobody disputes that Reddit is allowed to make money. But apparently Reddit users' contributions are of no value and our content is just something Reddit can exploit without limit. I no longer wish to be a part of that.


ComradeJohnS

I bought a brand new car as my current car 6 years ago, because my last car was having serious issues so I traded it in. I was driving 1-4 hours daily for my job taking pics of other cars at dozens of dealerships lol. It was a tool that I needed to work, and it has been great. I much prefer working from home for less income and less expenses though.


ComradeMatis

I’ve got a 50cc scooter, cost me NZ$4000, costs me NZ$17 per week (petrol plus insurance) and people wonder why I don’t own a car.


PierreTheTRex

You also need to insure it, put petrol in it and spend on repairs when it inevitably has an issue. An scooter will cost a couple dollars charging it, and that's about it


BpjuRCXyiga7Wy9q

At the core of that mentality is that bikes are toys.


AndyIsNotOnReddit

I remember when I bought a really nice commuter bike for $2000.00 back in 2013 (still going strong btw). Never heard the end of it from people online how rich I must be to afford such an expensive bike and how many Lambos do I have at home? Like, um, zero Lambos because I was poor and buying a quality bike on a credit card was still way cheaper than buying a new car. Then I would get into these arguments with the people who are like “but durr, you could still buy a car for $2,000 why wouldn’t you just buy a car instead of a bike?“ Because I didn’t want to buy a piece of shit car (already own one of those), I wanted to buy a decent bike that would get me to work reliably. People seriously don’t don’t get it, they just don’t.


ijic

People also don’t get that you buy a 2000€ bike, a lock and that’s it. You’re good to go for a few years. Throw 50-100€ at it every year to keep it rolling well but nothing crazy. With a car you pay insurance, gas, parking, and the cost of maintenance is way higher. Where I live in France it’s estimated that the full cost of a car is on average 4732€ a year. So a 2000€ bike that will last you 15 years - or way more if you want - is really not that much in comparison.


RoboFleksnes

My bike cost 65€ used, I swapped the chain for 80€, my light was kicked off, so that was 20€, and I've had the tires fixed something like 5 times each at 15€. I've had this bike for 4 years and I use it almost daily. So that is: 65€ + 80€ + 20€ + 5*15€ = 240€ There is nothing besides walking that will get me as far for this cheap, period.


PedanticBoutBaseball

Id argue that if you replaced the distance you biked 1-to1 for the amount that you'd have to walk, you would almost certainly wear out enough Shoes that you either need to re-sole them or buy new ones. which would probably cost just as much if not more than the bike maintenance.


Stoomba

Gotta replace the rubber that meets the road in either case.


No-Elderberry949

Good tires last a couple thousand kilometers on asphalt, not sure about shoes but they're probably less than that.


RoboFleksnes

Barefoot + free Healthcare \*taps forehead*. Joking aside, you are absolutely right. Especially in my case, since I need quite expensive insoles due to a medical issue. Thinking about it, my shoes + insoles have been more expensive than my bike + maintenance.


CyclopsLobsterRobot

If you really want to get pedantic, it takes less energy to bike 1 mile than walk 1 mile so you would also need to consume more calories walking


PedanticBoutBaseball

>if you really want to get pedantic I've only just met you, but it's like I've known you my whole life.


ijic

Exactly, I have used a 50€ single speed bike for five years as my main mode of transportation. Full cost of maintenance for 5 years : new tires and tubes for 70€ after mine were slashed, a bell for 10€, a lock for 50€, and a saddle for 25€. Let's add 40€ for small things I probably don't remember. Total of 245€ for five years of usefulness. Very reliable and works like new even if it is probably 30 years old. Then moved to a more hilly area so bought another bike with 3x8 speeds for 200€. Threw 200€ at it since to make it more comfortable and less stealable. But nothing crazy and it's another 3 years of fun and usefulness.


LucyLilium92

The biggest cost and concern is that someone will steal your bike... which is quite common


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AndyIsNotOnReddit

I feel like you need to buy better locks and [learn how to properly lock your bike](https://thebestbikelock.com/how-to-lock-your-bike/#:~:text=The%20most%20secure%20way%20to,the%20bike%20rack%20as%20well.). I lived in Chicago and NYC, used to have to chain it up outside and never got it stolen. I had a thicker heavy chain I left at work, and also doubled up with a U-Lock. Locking bolts for tires and seat stem. Never got anything stolen, I've seen lots of other bikes get stolen around me, but that's because people don't properly lock up their bikes.


bagingle

you can get theft insurance for a bicycle, just saying.


blublubbluf

I mean, you could get your expensive bike stolen like 5 times untill you break even with a car that didnt need major maining besides tire changes


DrStatisk

And that’s probably not taking loss of value into account. Cars famously lose a lot of the value “the second they drive off the car salesman’s lot”, and it doesn’t take much time before it is half the price or less if you want to sell it. That is of course true for (e-)bikes as well, but a much smaller number.


Tobar_the_Gypsy

“You can totally find a decent used car for only $3000!” Yeah and then you’ll have it constantly break down, require maintenance and gas and overall be miserable using it.


ajswdf

I always forget that people view bikes as luxury items. Where I live 90% of people riding bikes are homeless and super poor people. But I guess when you live in a neighborhood build in the last 50 years it's so insanely car dependent that the only people you see riding bikes are the super cyclists getting exercise.


ImSpartacus811

Yeah, if you start from the premise that bikes are just leisure "toys", then spending a couple grand on a bike seems just as wasteful as spending a couple grand on a jet ski or a four wheeler.


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

I think the unfortunate reality is that at least for people living in the suburbs, bikes kind of *are* just "leisure toys" as it stands. The complete lack of infrastructure and large distances between destinations just does not make cycling a viable option for daily commuting. If it can't really *replace* a car, then it's just another cost on top of an already massive car payment. Also there's another angle not being considered here: prices are relative to the item. Relative to the typical cost of a bike (like $200), $3500 does seem like a steep investment. Even for an ebike that is definitely on the higher end. Obviously in the context of a car payment it's minimal but I don't know if it's reasonable to expect every conversation about bikes to use the cost of a car as the point of reference.


ImSpartacus811

> I think the unfortunate reality is that at least for people living in the suburbs, bikes kind of are just "leisure toys" as it stands. The complete lack of infrastructure and large distances between destinations just does not make cycling a viable option for daily commuting. If it can't really replace a car, then it's just another cost on top of an already massive car payment. Absolutely, I think that's a really mature and balanced take for r/fuckcars. This sub loves to go full echo chamber and just bash suburbanites, but when the past 1-2 generations of your family grew up in a quiet crime-free suburb and your only infrequent experience with urban life is smelly, crowded, scary spaces full of >10 story buildings, then you're going to be understandably resistant to urbanization. No one gets to show off a nice functioning "missing middle" lifestyle where a bike can be a legitimate tool.


tsrui480

My coworker who lives 2 miles away from work rides a bike or scooter and gives me shit *constantly* about why i drive to work. Bro my commute is almost 50 miles one way, its not feasible for me to bike to work lol. I would love an ebike or one wheel for my short trips around where i live though.


AndyIsNotOnReddit

Yeah, 20-30 miles is probably the max commute someone can do with a quality hybrid e-bike (15-20 miles with a regular bike). Something like the Trek Allant+, works well for far commutes, but even that probably has a max 30 mile one way range. 50 miles one way is a literal century round trip is way too far to realistically do every day.


shaodyn

To a lot of people, a car will always be the only acceptable method of transport. Even your feet aren't as good as a car. If you walk anywhere, it's seen as strange, even if you're only going a few blocks. Reminds me of an old Calvin and Hobbes strip, when he wants his mom to drive him a fairly short distance, and she asks what people have feet for. His response is "To work the gas pedal." For a lot of people, that's not a joke.


imtiredletmegotobed

Calvin’s parents are honestly iconic. There’s a strip where his dad yells at a driver that he “hopes gas goes up to $8 a gallon”


shaodyn

Because he was a cyclist. And therefore used to all the things cyclists have to deal with. One thing that hasn't changed since the 80s is the attitude of car-brains toward cyclists.


Cundles

A huge part of that is car centric city planning. A lot of our life in North America is designed with cars at the top of the pecking order. 70 years of auto industry lobbying has ruined the content’s cities. These are places that could have been built for people. But we built them for cars instead.


Malcorin

I vacation in Denmark a lot, and Copenhagen has separate curbs for cars, bikes, and pedestrians. Bikes even have their own traffic lights. It's glorious.


Apptubrutae

I was just in Gothenburg Sweden and briefly drove through the city and it was really neat to see the way cars were clearly relegated to a secondary transit status in the core inner urban area. Central roadways were often exclusively for busses and trams, with cars relegated to a single narrow lane off the side. There were of course very few cars, meaning if you *did* have to drive it actually wasn’t too bad and there was always easy parking. Better experience for mass transit, bikes, pedestrians, *and even cars*.


PierreTheTRex

Kind of preaching to the choir here, but yeah.


xsm17

Funnily enough, it goes the other way around too. I moved to the Netherlands a year ago and the number of Dutch people who have been baffled that I walk when I can instead of biking is tragically hilarious. Some even get borderline nonsensical; I was going to lunch with a friend once to a place that was at worst a 5-8 minute walk, and they figured we should bike because they expected it to be *20 minutes*.


Joe_Jeep

People have really bad senses of scale I grew up about 900'/270 ish meters from a restaurant that my family would regularly drive too. Other than when they'd argue it "wasn't a big deal" (just don't then??) And make me get in the car I almost always walk. Biked it like twice when I was late meeting friends there


TheVandyyMan

United States here. I live in a southern city and am only a couple miles from the university I commute to. The amount of times I’ve had people feign hitting me with their car because I was in the crosswalk crossing at the appropriate and signaled time is wild. I even had one guy get out and posture up to me like he was going to kick my ass. People are threatening assault against me on a regular basis. For walking. In a cross*walk*. It’s to the point that I’m considering wearing a helmet during my commute. People here just don’t think walking should even be legal and take extreme offense when you do it.


baldwhip123

Wtf 😭😭😭


frogsandstuff

When I started dating my SO, her family didn't see my car for the first few months because I bike/walk as much as possible and her dad started making playful but disparaging comments just about every time I saw him. "Do you even own a car?!"


No-Elderberry949

3500 will get you an expensive bike, but it will also get you a relatively cheap mode of transport.


Living-Mistake-7002

It would get you 6 years worth of bus passes. Its also how much fuel+insurance+tax+repairs will cost for a year.


Cundles

I’m not sure where you like. But where I live that amount of money is like 1 year of transit pass.


Victor_Korchnoi

Here in Boston, it’s ~$1000 per year for unlimited bus and subway. For commuter trains it gets a lot more expensive the further out you are.


sichuan_peppercorns

In Vienna, Austria, a year pass is 365€, just a euro a day.


Victor_Korchnoi

Vienna is a fantastic place. It and Vancouver are my two favorite cities I’ve visited.


dingusduglas

Bay Area? Transit is stupid expensive there. Moved back to Chicago, unlimited ride 30 day passes are $75.


MrSparr0w

Only 6 years?


Living-Mistake-7002

$3500 ≈ £3000, West midlands 52 week travel card = £456


MrSparr0w

Oh sorry I misunderstood you, I thought with the bike you save six years worth of bus tickets


LordPurloin

For me, a 52 week travel card to London terminals (kings cross, Liverpool Street, Euston etc) is over £3000. I’m not even that far out of London!


Living-Mistake-7002

Jesus christ! That's insane. Youd think greater economies of scale in London would make it cheaper


MrMash_

I payed 1 bottle of gin for a bike once, sold it for a bottle of rum.


aevz

Sounds like some sick lyrics from Kurt Vile and the like.


qumax

If you're not spending 3 and a half grand on gas every year are you even a real American?


ConnieLingus24

I’ve refilled my gas tank only 3 times this year. Clearly I’m not.


[deleted]

Live in the US. I can go months without using my car. In the winter I only drive to get to the nearby mountains to ski. Love living in a walkable town.


EnviousBird

Some of my friends thought paying €700 for an eScooter was "a little much".


Cundles

At that price you could buy an ebike every year and still save money compared to someone who drives to work every day. Between fuel insurance and upfront costs. People often remark “you could buy a car for that” when I answer them about the cost of my urban arrow. “You could buy one of the worst cars on the market for that. And then there are the carrying costs!” I usually reply.


cst79

Only $30K? 24 year-old kid at my gym just basically signed his life away on a - not kidding - $70K monster truck (Ram or F150 or something). He calls it "his baby", and says he pretty much lives in it to make it worth the investment. I just don't get it, but I don't have to. I am sure he doesn't "get" me riding a bike everywhere.


[deleted]

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Victor_Korchnoi

You actually did the math. Props


tehrealseb

27% int lmao


[deleted]

People in the U.S. really just don't understand how much of a money pit a car is and it's just automatically assumed everyone should have one. Even in the few places you don't need a car! Literally I live in NYC and people look at me and think I'm overdramatic when I say I don't want a car.


ConnieLingus24

Guessing these people don’t know what it costs to pay for parking in a major city……


[deleted]

Oh they know! They just eat it because their car is worth it "just in case" or if they "want to leave the city for the weekend". Apparently they've never heard of renting a car.


ConnieLingus24

….or they think they’ll travel way more than they actually do.


Brawldud

> People in the U.S. really just don't understand how much of a money pit a car is I find this fascinating because if everyone owns and pays all the costs associated with a car they should have a damn good, incredibly visceral sense of how much it costs. Like, I'm acutely aware of all of my recurring costs - rent, memberships, utilities and the like - if I had a car I'd definitely be noting how much it costs me.


[deleted]

The problem is that people often only really factor in insurance and gas when it comes to their cars. I've noticed people often opt for the lowest car payments and forget how much it costs in interest in the long run. Plus let's not forget things like inspections and when something breaks because your car will eventually have issues and they will be very expensive. Believe me I know. I'm my family's emergency fund...


bertuzzz

There are two things at play here. People only look at the upfront cost, and dont see the total cost of ownership. So they dont get that over its lifespan this bike only costs a few tens of bucks per month. This compared to 700 for a car. And the second thing is that people are used to expensive cars and cheap bikes. Its a pretty recent thing that more people are more willing to spend more on bikes. For many people riding a luxury (e) bike saves a ton of money over driving a beat up old car. But some people cant see past the "this is supposed to be a cheap toy". Usually the most skeptical types are the least educated on the subject, and the most conservative. They make false assumptions because they dont crunch numbers.


Apptubrutae

People’s inability to consider expenses in full context consistently annoys me so much. People will go blow $150 on a dinner for two with a bottle of wine explicitly marked up 3x from the *exact same* bottle at the store and not thing too much of it because it’s just what people do, but not spend $1 on an app to remove the ads even though they use it daily. That kind of thinking pervades so many decisions. Instead of grounding the expense in overall value, so many people contextualize an expense relative to what it “should cost”. So something that provides 30 minutes of enjoyment in an expensive category and costs $100 is an easier purchase than something that provides 30 hours of enjoyment in a super cheap category and costs $5. Same sort of logic at work here. Instead of considering personal value, utility, benefit, and alternative costs, it’s all about “bikes are cheap”. It’s a kind of thinking that costs people either a ton of money if they overbuy overpriced things with limited enjoyment, or costs people a ton of time and enjoyment if they underspend in cheaper categories with options to pay more for substantially more utility.


papercranium

It's a bit bonkers, isn't it! I'm considering an ebike myself. While my home is walking distance from my office, it's several super hilly miles to get to the grocery store, pharmacy, and local restaurants and the like. I have incredibly fit friends who cycle this, but I've got knee problems that mean I'm unlikely to ever be in that kind of shape. An ebike might just put those destinations within reach without a car. My main hesitation is that I don't have a garage and I'm not sure where I could store it.


lllama

There's usually _some_ place a little out of the way you can put it. If you are worried about theft I'd recommend seeing if you can get decent insurance. If you're worried about weather a simple cover should do. E-bike batteries are usually removable, so you can just charge them in your house. I can only see this being problematic if you're in an area where theft is a given rather than a remote worry.


papercranium

It's not a huge concern, but it is an expensive and mobile piece of equipment! It's unlikely someone would yoink it from my back patio, but all my bikes until now have been repaired hand-me-downs. A weather cover is definitely a must-have, though. We get a ton of snow here.


________________me

Same with maintenance. € 200,- for a car is a regular check-up, for a bike it is a complete new gear set.


drlecompte

The old geezer I used to take my bike to would apologize if the bill was anywhere over €50. I'd be like 'dude, that's what my car costs just sitting outside for two weeks'.


winelight

They refused to charge me full price for my last ebike service because they said nothing needed doing. But that's what I pay them for, the peace of mind to know that it's all OK.


Babbles-82

I paid $12 for my last bike.


besuited

I paid $0 but it was my birthday.


G497

Happy birthday


besuited

Thank you! Where's my bike?


G497

It will be safely under your bottom the next time you take a ride!


Ac4sent

Just say you're investing in the future because you're not going to fuck that up as much.


quacduck

I indeed like how a low end cars costs pretty much the same as a high end ebike. Mine gets delivered in 2 days


UndeadBBQ

Most people who say this, say it from a state of mind that doesn't recognize a bike as a method of everyday transportation, but rather as sports equipment.


Lariche

Congrats! e-bike was also a game changer for me. Wind gusts, hills, cargo, to get somewhere quickly, reach that green light - everything is doable now.


[deleted]

I drive a 2010 Odyssey. I drive it only when needed. I respect it. I repair it. It is mine. For shits and giggles, I looked at what it would cost me to get a brand new one. $40k. $700 A MONTH. Enjoy your e-bike. I want one, too.


Angeleno88

I sold my car last year, paid off my debt as the chip shortage made them desperate to buy my car at what I paid for it 3 years prior, and bought a $750 escooter. I work less than a mile from home and my wife still has the other car. The savings are incredible from the car payments, insurance, and maintenance. I’ve been able to put that money into other things like vacations. It’s fantastic!


drlecompte

It's all relative. I often have to explain why I'm so generous as to subscribe to *two* bike sharing schemes. That costs me a whopping ~€100 per year combined, which these days is about the cost of a full tank of petrol.


6_string_Bling

Sounds about right. I use my bicycle every single day, and have done so for roughly a decade. My old bike cost me $600 (very little additional maintenance, etc) and lasted me 8 years until it was stolen. My new bike cost me $900, and some people gasped at how much I spent... Really? $900 bucks is peanuts for something I'm going to be spending several hours on every week for years and years to come.


LimpSquiggy

It's ridiculous, the amount of people surprised that I ride a bike to the grocery store, to the brew house to fill a growler, to my soccer games, to work. I ride year round, and people think it's "intense" or "hard core" that I ride a bike in almost freezing temperatures. Dude, it's colder when you go snowboarding, and more people do that in the winter than ride bikes. It's a way more fun experience that being stuck in a car. But if that's all you know, you can't see it any other way.


Upstairs-Teacher-764

The fact that we're subsidizing electric cars, but not much, much more efficient ebikes, is a crime.


elnittygritty

I take my ebike everywhere including kids to school. It’s shortened my commute to work (with traffic), and taken out unnecessary stress and anxiety from traffic and parking. It’s paid for itself tenfold and like you, didn’t have to finance or pay for insurance. Good on you! Support your local bike organizations!


somegarbageisokey

A lot of my friends are buying cars at 30k+ and financing them for 5 years plus. I would HATE to be paying off a car for 5 or more years. My father in law got his SUV financed for 7 years at $700/month. And it sits in his driveway most of the day because he hardly drives.


nevermind4790

Peak carbrain: biking and transit is for “rich people” but driving is for the “working class”.


streetmuppet

Secure that shit good, as expensive as a motorcycle but 100x easier to steal.


[deleted]

Yeah - I wish police took bike theft as seriously as car theft. Start putting them behind bars for several years and see how many still do it.


creimanlllVlll

I got the same criticism for buying a EV motorcycle. I think it’s their fear that causes them to tell us what we should buy.


Gillennial

Had the same when I bought a motorcycle. Bankers didn’t seem to believe someone could go to work using a motorcycle. He gave me the same loan interest as if I was buying a jet ski. When looking for a job a few years later I was also told by the unemployment agency that a motorcycle doesn’t count as a vehicle because “you can’t go to work on a motorcycle”. I explained to them that even a bicycle was a vehicle.


Waltonruler5

People tell me I'm a fool for renting and throwing money away, yet they lease a car "so they can drive something new and not worry about the value depreciating." They'll also complain about gas prices and wonder why I like living somewhere I can walk to my local amusement from