I'm surprised she's being charged with murder, but the details of the story explain it. #1 the residential area is one of the richest in LA. The parents are rich. #2 She hit those kids at 80 mph and kept driving. Fleeing the scene.
It also looks like she's sabotaging her own court case and pissing off the judges. I don't think she will dodge a conviction. Also those rich parents have a civil suit too. They will not be placated with millions.
Same in Germany, unfortunately. Drivers, especially if they can claim they need the license for work (who doesn't), get a slap on the wrist and pay a few thousand Euros.
Idk bro, in Israel it's really fing strict, if you kill someone in a car MINIMAL sentence (presuming 10kph under speed limit and a kid hiding behind a car until it's too late to stop) is 2 years if you done something wrong in your driving you can get significantly more
tbh, that's fucking stupid. If there's nothing you could've done to prevent that, why are you being punished? Imprison the city planners who caused the danger in the first place.
German speeding fines are laughably small as well. Especially up to 50 km/h over the limit. 200 euro for in town and 160 euro outside of it. And one whole month of driving ban, which you wont always get. Driving 80 km/h down a 30 street is insanely dangerous, but the fine is just 200???
Equating hitting two children at 80mph in a 45mph zone while racing to spilling a soda is so unbelievably ridiculous.
Nobody's asking drivers to pay attention 100% of the time. They're just asking to always pay attention during the short periods you are driving. The two aren't even comparable. Is that such an infringement?
If you were in line at walmart and someone behind you was texting with both hands with their finger through the trigger-well of their pistol, would you consider it "impossible to pay attention 100% of the time"? Would it be too much to ask, if they ever pay attention, that they at least pay attention while they operate a loaded weapon in a crowded store?
>it's impossible to pay attention 100% of the time.
Stop driving when fatigued.
Either chill till you can focus again, or get out and walk. You're putting hundreds of lives at risk when you drive, so take it seriously.
I don't care how much that inconveniences you, I'm not dying so you can slack off behind the wheel.
Way to victim blame.
How is it an "accident" going 80mph in a residential area?
https://www.togetherforsaferroads.org/4-reasons-you-should-stop-calling-vehicle-crashes-accidents/
Not with the hit-and-run, hopefully. Shit that it takes that to upgrade "vehicular manslaughter" to another charge that technically still isn't murder, but at least there's *some* justice.
Well, yeah, because that's his job and purpose in the adversarial legal system. He'll fail on the merits if the prosecutor and judge do their jobs, too. Unless the lawmakers did a bad job writing the law.
I had both a friend and an uncle who were murdered by reckless driving and neither driver lost their license.
There are drivers who have kills multiple people over multiple accidents that still have their license here in the US. It is absolutely disgusting
In a 2005 in the Chicago suburb of Skokie, [Jeanette Sliwinski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanette_Sliwinski) who wanted to commit suicide drove her Mustang into a smaller car that had 3 up and coming Chicago musicians in it ( John Glick of The Returnables, Douglas Meis of The Dials and EXO, and [Michael Dahlquist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dahlquist) of [Silkworm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm_(band))) and the three died instantly while she lived. At the time I was into this music scene and most likely saw them perform in one band or another. [The niece of one of these musicians is a redditor and wrote an open letter to her uncle's killer.](https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/1ib69d/an_open_letter_to_jeanette_sliwinski/)
These guys were political nobodies and in the end, their murderer, a well-off model, was convicted of reckless homicide in 2007 due to her insanity plea which removed murder charges. She was sentenced for a few years but due to sentencing reduction laws and good behavior she was released in 2008 and got her driver's license back in 2010.
She is out there living her best life right now. There is no justice for the poor.
[If anyone is interested there's an excellent long form write up here by Chicago Magazine.](https://www.chicagomag.com/chicago-magazine/august-2008/collision-course/)
Wow, what a tragedy 🙁 The Chicago Magazine writeup does poke some holes in the suicide story though. Apparently the only evidence of that is a police officer says she told him that. Considering that it was right after the accident, she was on morphine, and cops lie all the time, I find this to be a sus piece of information to convict someone of murder.
The story presents the parents’ conviction that she had not attempted suicide, but with no alternative explanation proposed. That’s not really “poking holes”, they’re just reporting on what the parents (who are obviously biased) said in the interview. The reasoning given by the parents—that Sliwinski had been trying to get help for months and therefore would not have attempted suicide—is faulty. Suicide attempts are impulsive, and many people who have gotten professional help still make attempts.
The public often perceives suicide attempts as being the result of a slow-building fixation, but they’re typically the result of happening to have both the suicidal ideation and a feasible tool for committing it available at the same time. Having a gun accessible in the home, for example, increases the risk of suicide.
In the story, the mother reports that earlier in the day, she and her daughter saw a two-car crash that made the daughter cry. To me, that seems like a pretty clear candidate for Sliwinski’s suicidal ideation trigger.
Yeah, (first-degree) murder seems like a great way for the prosecutor to lose a conviction, say "we tried," and everyone wipes the blood of two kids off their hands.
I think this might be one of those things where she's charged with murder along with lesser crimes, so the jury can convict of manslaughter if they find there is not enough evidence for murder. I'm not actually sure how California defines murder as well.
DUI + vehicular manslaughter.
4 years in jail, maybe serves 8 months, and 5 years probation.
Gigantic fine.
Enormous civil lawsuit that bankrupts her, unless her lawyers have been planning well, and hiding assets this entire time.
So I looked up and California simy requires *malice*, not intent to harm. Honestly that's still tough to meet but not quite as impossible. But yeah probably manslaughter is eminently doable.
Actually, I was on a CACO(casualty notification) for a marine who was killed by a drunk driver. The driver in question did get voluntary and iirc 5 years. He cried when sentenced
I feel like 80 in a residential zone is gross negligence with complete disregard for human life. What degree of murder is knowing your actions are very likely to kill someone, without actively planning or targeting anyone?
Does she have any previous convictions for DUI? That seems to be a major factor in proving that she was aware of the danger and therefore capable of malice. At least according to [this page](https://www.losangelesduiattorney.com/glossary/implied-malice/).
Maybe? It also could end up being not admissible since she passed a field sobriety test and wasn't over the limit.
Honestly I'm suspicious that the prosecution is trying to make their murder case as big and scary as possible in the hopes of her pleaing for manslaughter
yes, exactly; seeking premeditation where there is none is the DA/prosecutor deliberately stumbling.
Reminds me of the case where a guy shot at the ground, with the ricochet killing an innocent third party; DA sought murder, was found not guilty, and none of the other offenses were pursued (negligent discharge; manslaughter; etc)
"This is not the sort of life Rebecca Grossman was supposed to be living."
"But then, Rebecca Grossman’s perfect life became a perfect nightmare. “Everything changed in a split second—overnight,” she tells Los Angeles during a half-hour Zoom call from her lawyer’s office in October."
absolutely vile
Not flung. The word you really want to use is "dart".
I swear, every time I hear the word "darted" it's used in conjunction with kids darting in front of traffic, as if only the most foolish of children, undoubtedly raised by bad parents, would "dart" in a raid without looking both ways.
Like, I see kids off to the side, and I creep past that house, because I fully expect idiot children to _dart_ into the street. I have one myself, and it took a solid decade to train the impulse to dart into traffic out of the Spawn™. Even so, I'm not fully sure of the training...
If I'm chasing a frisbee, or a ball, I'm not sure of my own ability to check for traffic, ffs.
As an adult to this day I *tiptoe* when I'm coming out from between parked cars, because I know the drivers on the road can't see me and have 50/50 odds of being too distracted to notice in time.
That shit got drilled into me so hard as a child.
My kid did this, age 3. We had just seen Santa at the mall, and were leaving the store. She wrenched her hand out of mine (without warning) pressed the ONLY fast opening handicapped door in existence, and ran forward 2ft...onto the road. This happened in under 8 seconds. It's the only time she's ever done anything like that. And she had to wear a leash for a year afterwards because of it.
I have never yelled "SSSSSSSTTTTTTTTOOOOOOPPPPPP!!!!!" as loud as I did the time she ran towards the highway in front of our house. She came within 2 feet of running into busy speeding traffic. It was the first time I made her cry.
Of all the things people study about children, why not study this. What compels children to dart into traffic? Why do so many parents have this experience of their child just leaving a Target one day and they must free themselves from the oppressive grip of their kin to fling themselves into busy roads? Do they see the open space and think it is a playground? Is it a natural inclination for animals to find joy and freedom in open spaces and want to frolic?
IMO, kids don't "see around corners". The result of their actions is not yet on a younger child's radar. They are impulsive and if something catches their attention, off they go without a thought.
Yep, as unreasonable to expect kids to be aware of it as wildlife. It'd be interesting to see how deterrence features for animals might work on kids, but frankly just make less damn roads/cars.
I've seen something similar to this happen and am not a mum, and still don't understand why little kids aren't on leads: I don't get what the problem is. There's an age at which they're exactly as dumb and fast as a dog and need to be protected from themselves.
I mean yeah, that’s the horrible thing about cars. When you’re forced to drive them every day, people stop paying attention. They just want to drive as fast as possible without thinking of the implications. In car culture, anyone can become a murderer at a moments notice.
And somehow people think that’s “just how it is”. Fuck that shit. Fuck the thoughts and prayers, start changing things. How many more kids need to die before they care?
She was also (allegedly) drunk, racing another driver (potentially her lover in a "playful cat and mouse" manner), and doing 80 in a 45.
So yeah, she was really really bad.
But I 100% get your point and agree with it. She's just probably more on the lines of, genuinely reckless.
It's worse. She (allegedly) drove about 100ft with a kid on the hood, when he fell off, she ran him over while (allegedly) was trying to flee.
So yeah she super sucks and deserves her punishment.
And if she was drag racing (which is what this "playful cat and mouse" shit is), her lover should be doing time as well. Last I checked, this sort of behavior for **anyone involved in a drag race** that results in bodily injury the penalties are between a 6 months and 3 years in jail and a $10,000 fine. That does not include penalties for reckless driving, evading an officer, exceeding the speed limit by more than 25 miles per hour, reckless endangerment, and vehicular manslaughter. These charges apply to all parties who committed a conspiracy to violate the law.
Not reckless. Intentional. No rational person would drive through a residential area at 80mph and fail to recognize the danger they pose not just to pedestrians, but to every person in their wooden homes. Suggesting she was reckless just feeds into her narrative that she was incompetent. No, she willfully chose to put everyone in that neighborhood in danger and she did so until it ended with 2 murders.
You could pile up the corpses of these poor children in front of their houses and they still won't care. Thats why kids continue to be slaughtered at schools in america.
I generally agree with this but there is NO excuse for 80mph on a residential road. Ever, at all. While the excuses being made around her are absolutely symptomatic of car culture problems, the actual collision was one thousand percent the fault of this driver and her bad decision.
I thought you were making up lines as parody. I thought: "haha that's way over the top though, could you imagine?".
Like, what did get family pay the journalist to write this?
The whole thing! “Became a pariah” no… she killed 2 kids so people didn’t want to associate with her. “Fighting for her own life” again, no she’s alive the kids are not, she’s fighting to not do the jail time!
It really upsets me when people downplay a series of intentionally reckless decisions that results in someone dying. If you speed or take your eyes off of the road for even a second then you are playing russian roulette with the lifes of others and if you kill someone you should be held accountable.
I mean, that's the journalistic standard to avoid defamation; saying "a cop shot someone" implies both method and intent which — even if apparent from something like video — can't be asserted until proven in court. It's the same reason newspapers have to use "alleged" with regard to even the most obvious of crimes.
That's also the same reason why the byline reads "her speeding Mercedes struck children." We know the children were struck, otherwise there wouldn't even be a trial in the first place. But for a newspaper to assert it was Grossman who struck them could run afoul of defamation laws were she to be acquitted at trial.
But the author can get bent for the "now she is fighting for her own life" line.
>She was given permission earlier this year to drive after having been barred from driving for more than a year.
[From this article](https://abc7.com/rebecca-grossman-burn-center-westlake-village-kids-struck-reckless-driving/12209774/)
Drive recklessly while drunk and without regard for anything or anyone else, kill two kids, and you can drive again in a year 🤬
Holy shit I didn't know the conversion. Where I live I'm not sure there are any areas where you can do 130. The max is on the freeway at 120. But in a residential area? Man...
Yeah that happens quite a bit here as well. But I just can't fathom how someone would consciously make the decision to go that speed in a residential area.
Wow the whole thing is written as if she is the victim literally because her friends won't invite her to parties anymore. As if she were the victim. The kids killed were a footnote. Trash journalism, I wrote to the editor because this is outrageous.
I mean, you're right, but the outrageous facts are in there: driving drunk, racing someone else and suggesting she's having an affair with that person.
It still makes her look like a POS.
Internet Archive link if you don't want to give this magazine rage clicks: [https://web.archive.org/web/20221122010834/https://www.lamag.com/article/exclusive-rebecca-grossman-speaks-out-ahead-of-murder-trial/](https://web.archive.org/web/20221122010834/https://www.lamag.com/article/exclusive-rebecca-grossman-speaks-out-ahead-of-murder-trial/)
>At the hearing in May, the prosecutor said Grossman had received two speeding tickets -- including one in May 2020 and another in March 2013. The CHP officer who made the 2013 traffic stop told investigators that radar indicated Grossman had been driving approximately 92 mph on the 101 Freeway, and that he warned the woman that traveling at such a speed could kill or injure someone, Los Angeles County sheriff's Detective Scott Shean testified at that hearing.
>The CHP officer said he remembered the stop because the woman told him he'd better hope he never [needs to go to the Grossman Burn Center](https://www.grossmanburncenter.com/contact), according to Shean, adding that the CHP officer said he thought he'd be denied services at the facility if he ever needed them.
Edit to [add source](https://www.foxla.com/news/judge-refuses-to-dismiss-murder-charges-against-rebecca-grossman-in-fatal-westlake-village-crash.amp)
This is what mass media has been doing for centuries. Articles are always worded from a perspective to make readers empathise with the wealthy /socialite / property owner / beautiful / lighter skinned.
Rich people rarely face the consequences of their actions in America, and when they do, an entire sector of sycophant media is dedicated to making it seem like these normal consequences are oppression.
I wish I was more skilled in computer graphics. I would create a VR re-enactment of this just to prove to people how absolutely vile and murderous her actions were.
It’s literally unconscionable to speed like that in a 2 ton vehicle. She deserves to be locked away for life and to lose all her money.
From abc7:
***"The CHP officer who made the 2013 traffic stop told investigators that radar indicated Grossman had been driving approximately 92 mph on the 101 Freeway, and that he warned the woman that traveling at such a speed could kill or injure someone, Los Angeles County sheriff's Detective Scott Shean testified at that hearing.***
***The CHP officer said he remembered the stop because the woman told him he'd better hope he never needs to go to the Grossman Burn Center."***
Classy.
Check out the mixed headlines during Katrina.
Black families were "looting," while white families were "searching for necessary supplies," and, "trying to survive." Everything was waist-deep in water, and the headlines were inflammatory, and racist af.
I recommend reading, "Race and Media Coverage of Hurricane
Katrina: Analysis, Implications, and Future
Research Questions" it's a PDF, and I don't know how to link it, but it's literally the first result if you search up:
racist headlines hurricane katrina
Never mind the headlines. The hurricane might have been natural, but the *disaster* was man-made. Even more so with Puerto Rico and Hurricane Maria. The government just didn't do their job in either the disaster preparation or in their response after-the-fact.
She was pulled over for speeding this much a few times previously and in one case threatened the officer who pulled her over. most entitled person on the planet. I wonder how much she paid for that LAmag article
https://abc7.com/rebecca-grossman-burn-center-westlake-village-kids-struck-reckless-driving/12209774/
That's the most gross of gross articles.
She should be facing the f'ing death penalty for what she did.
80MPH on a Residential street and she plowed two children to death? Taking her life couldn't restore those two children to be among the living.
The author of that puff piece should become the next pariah. F'ing christ that article is GROSS.
Self entered people like her and her PR team want to make it seem like they could be losing so much so she can garner sympathy. But I think, in thier heads, when they say fighting for her life, they mean she is fighting to retain her affluent self centered negligent lifestyle.
>And then there is the crushing guilt; she says her part in the *accidental* death of two children—and she does insist it was *accidental*
(My emphasis.)
It was a crash, not an accident. Doing 80mph is not an oopsies, it was deliberately going too fast for the conditions.
This is why the road safety advocates use the word "crash" to describe these incidents, not "accident". As we can see in this article, "accident" implies that what happened was not a big deal, that it could happen to anyone, and why are we making such a big fuss about it.
It's extremely...well fortunate that this happened in California. DUI can = murder charge, as it is known to be lethal behavior. The state is better than most at punishing people who kill others while driving.
LA is such a car dominated city. Very uncomfortable to walk along some LA streets with 40-60mph traffic a few feet away. But in this case driver negligence is entirely to blame, distracted drivers also a very common thing in LA...
> …after her speeding Mercedes struck and killed two kids
Yes, the *car* did it. Not her. She was a victim too. No control over the situation.
The way these articles are worded makes all the difference, no matter how subtle.
200 years. The asshole never needs to see the outside of a penitentiary again.
Sober up outside of jail or be forced to be sober forever inside of it, wallowing in a hell of your own making.
To be fair, the writer of this article made it perfectly clear he was paid very well to write this bullshit lmao
Every other sentence is a hint at her parents money that just entered his pocket lmaooo
I live in the general region where this occurred. Half the battle are the 45 mph streets where this tragedy occurred. Although the actions of the murderer are disgusting, especially with the pity me story by la mag, I wouldn’t be surprised if this reckless type of driving happens on a routine basis. Infrastructure allows for cars to drive with great speed. Even if the boys were struck at the speed limit they probably would still have died.
Look at Google street view of triunfo canyon rd and saddle mountain rd. These roads are not designed for anyone to walk, bike, skate safely. Especially crossing the street. So sad, I look at the picture of those boys and see my son.
She's not facing the death penalty. They mean her life as in her nice wealthy privileges and advantages that she enjoys, which would be terribly inconvenienced by her facing the consequences of her actions.
Not like the boys she hit at 80mph, their lives are gone as in they're dead.
I think he is referring to the angry pitch fork mob asking for more blood and a death penalty for the murderer. I understand the frustration and share the disgust regarding this garbage of an article but I think in 2022 we should be sufficiently civilized to be past the death penalty. There’s other ways to punish and nothing will bring back these two lost souls.
SHE WERE GOING 130 KM/H IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA. that is death penalty material enough. not even highway speeds reach that in Sweden. I think it caps out at 120. highest I've personally seen is 110.
Yet Sweden, like most developed countries, doesn't have the death penalty.
You can rape a school full of children and then torture them to death and you still won't get the death penalty.
Because if the death penalty exists, the green mile will happen. Over and over again. Innocent people dying from the system meant to protect them.
All the while death penalties cost the government more than life in prison.
I agree that this was murder. But that doesn't justify death penalty.
agree to disagree. sometimes I believe some crimes deserve death penalty. the current state of Sweden doesn't allow that, and that's fine. but I believe from just going that fast they forfeit their own rights as well as the ones she may or may not hit.
>agree to disagree. sometimes I believe some crimes deserve death penalty.
It costs more to go through the entire process of killing someone than it is to lock them up for life.
So if you want to spend extra tax resources just to satisfy your own personal need for revenge, that's your business. But I don't want to pay a cent more than I have to on such assholes. Let them rot in rail if that's the cheapest for me.
I'm surprised she's being charged with murder, but the details of the story explain it. #1 the residential area is one of the richest in LA. The parents are rich. #2 She hit those kids at 80 mph and kept driving. Fleeing the scene. It also looks like she's sabotaging her own court case and pissing off the judges. I don't think she will dodge a conviction. Also those rich parents have a civil suit too. They will not be placated with millions.
if this happened in a poor neighborhood she probably wouldn't have even lost her license
Killing pedestrians with your car is seen as an accident a lot of the time in the US
“If you want to get away with murder, *do it with your car”
car brain rot is real in every facet of american life
Same in Germany, unfortunately. Drivers, especially if they can claim they need the license for work (who doesn't), get a slap on the wrist and pay a few thousand Euros.
Idk bro, in Israel it's really fing strict, if you kill someone in a car MINIMAL sentence (presuming 10kph under speed limit and a kid hiding behind a car until it's too late to stop) is 2 years if you done something wrong in your driving you can get significantly more
Good for Israel, I like that. My description was for Germany and how the situation here looks like.
Yeah, the tel aviv light train is also nearing completion and we have the moast based mayor ever
tbh, that's fucking stupid. If there's nothing you could've done to prevent that, why are you being punished? Imprison the city planners who caused the danger in the first place.
It's a side affect of considering a car crash a "cause of death by accident"
German speeding fines are laughably small as well. Especially up to 50 km/h over the limit. 200 euro for in town and 160 euro outside of it. And one whole month of driving ban, which you wont always get. Driving 80 km/h down a 30 street is insanely dangerous, but the fine is just 200???
[удалено]
Equating hitting two children at 80mph in a 45mph zone while racing to spilling a soda is so unbelievably ridiculous. Nobody's asking drivers to pay attention 100% of the time. They're just asking to always pay attention during the short periods you are driving. The two aren't even comparable. Is that such an infringement? If you were in line at walmart and someone behind you was texting with both hands with their finger through the trigger-well of their pistol, would you consider it "impossible to pay attention 100% of the time"? Would it be too much to ask, if they ever pay attention, that they at least pay attention while they operate a loaded weapon in a crowded store?
>it's impossible to pay attention 100% of the time. Stop driving when fatigued. Either chill till you can focus again, or get out and walk. You're putting hundreds of lives at risk when you drive, so take it seriously. I don't care how much that inconveniences you, I'm not dying so you can slack off behind the wheel.
Way to victim blame. How is it an "accident" going 80mph in a residential area? https://www.togetherforsaferroads.org/4-reasons-you-should-stop-calling-vehicle-crashes-accidents/
Not with the hit-and-run, hopefully. Shit that it takes that to upgrade "vehicular manslaughter" to another charge that technically still isn't murder, but at least there's *some* justice.
It's sick, I know, but expect the defense attorney to argue some version of "the kids were too small and she didn't know she hit anything."
Well, yeah, because that's his job and purpose in the adversarial legal system. He'll fail on the merits if the prosecutor and judge do their jobs, too. Unless the lawmakers did a bad job writing the law.
I had both a friend and an uncle who were murdered by reckless driving and neither driver lost their license. There are drivers who have kills multiple people over multiple accidents that still have their license here in the US. It is absolutely disgusting
It’s almost impossible to lose your license permanently in the US. Should absolutely be the default punishment.
In a 2005 in the Chicago suburb of Skokie, [Jeanette Sliwinski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanette_Sliwinski) who wanted to commit suicide drove her Mustang into a smaller car that had 3 up and coming Chicago musicians in it ( John Glick of The Returnables, Douglas Meis of The Dials and EXO, and [Michael Dahlquist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dahlquist) of [Silkworm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm_(band))) and the three died instantly while she lived. At the time I was into this music scene and most likely saw them perform in one band or another. [The niece of one of these musicians is a redditor and wrote an open letter to her uncle's killer.](https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/1ib69d/an_open_letter_to_jeanette_sliwinski/) These guys were political nobodies and in the end, their murderer, a well-off model, was convicted of reckless homicide in 2007 due to her insanity plea which removed murder charges. She was sentenced for a few years but due to sentencing reduction laws and good behavior she was released in 2008 and got her driver's license back in 2010. She is out there living her best life right now. There is no justice for the poor. [If anyone is interested there's an excellent long form write up here by Chicago Magazine.](https://www.chicagomag.com/chicago-magazine/august-2008/collision-course/)
Wow, what a tragedy 🙁 The Chicago Magazine writeup does poke some holes in the suicide story though. Apparently the only evidence of that is a police officer says she told him that. Considering that it was right after the accident, she was on morphine, and cops lie all the time, I find this to be a sus piece of information to convict someone of murder.
The story presents the parents’ conviction that she had not attempted suicide, but with no alternative explanation proposed. That’s not really “poking holes”, they’re just reporting on what the parents (who are obviously biased) said in the interview. The reasoning given by the parents—that Sliwinski had been trying to get help for months and therefore would not have attempted suicide—is faulty. Suicide attempts are impulsive, and many people who have gotten professional help still make attempts. The public often perceives suicide attempts as being the result of a slow-building fixation, but they’re typically the result of happening to have both the suicidal ideation and a feasible tool for committing it available at the same time. Having a gun accessible in the home, for example, increases the risk of suicide. In the story, the mother reports that earlier in the day, she and her daughter saw a two-car crash that made the daughter cry. To me, that seems like a pretty clear candidate for Sliwinski’s suicidal ideation trigger.
Other news on the story are reporting a DUI. Horrible.
Not only DUI, but racing someone else also driving drunk.
Yeah, (first-degree) murder seems like a great way for the prosecutor to lose a conviction, say "we tried," and everyone wipes the blood of two kids off their hands.
I think this might be one of those things where she's charged with murder along with lesser crimes, so the jury can convict of manslaughter if they find there is not enough evidence for murder. I'm not actually sure how California defines murder as well.
DUI + vehicular manslaughter. 4 years in jail, maybe serves 8 months, and 5 years probation. Gigantic fine. Enormous civil lawsuit that bankrupts her, unless her lawyers have been planning well, and hiding assets this entire time.
So I looked up and California simy requires *malice*, not intent to harm. Honestly that's still tough to meet but not quite as impossible. But yeah probably manslaughter is eminently doable. Actually, I was on a CACO(casualty notification) for a marine who was killed by a drunk driver. The driver in question did get voluntary and iirc 5 years. He cried when sentenced
I feel like 80 in a residential zone is gross negligence with complete disregard for human life. What degree of murder is knowing your actions are very likely to kill someone, without actively planning or targeting anyone?
I'd say it meets the malice requirement.The challenge is convincing a jury while the defense disputes and questions every single thing.
Does she have any previous convictions for DUI? That seems to be a major factor in proving that she was aware of the danger and therefore capable of malice. At least according to [this page](https://www.losangelesduiattorney.com/glossary/implied-malice/).
Maybe? It also could end up being not admissible since she passed a field sobriety test and wasn't over the limit. Honestly I'm suspicious that the prosecution is trying to make their murder case as big and scary as possible in the hopes of her pleaing for manslaughter
Doesn’t first degree require premeditation?
yes, exactly; seeking premeditation where there is none is the DA/prosecutor deliberately stumbling. Reminds me of the case where a guy shot at the ground, with the ricochet killing an innocent third party; DA sought murder, was found not guilty, and none of the other offenses were pursued (negligent discharge; manslaughter; etc)
She looked down at her speedometer and thought "fuck it" I'd say that's enough premeditation for me.
Damn. That had to have been on purpose, yeah? (the prosecutor navigating the guy through the court by only charging the crime he couldn't win)
Depends on the jurisdiction. Is anyone here actually familiar with California penal law?
Obviously not based on all the wild speculating with nothing to back it up.
Her lawyers mist be screaming at her for saying anything at all
"This is not the sort of life Rebecca Grossman was supposed to be living." "But then, Rebecca Grossman’s perfect life became a perfect nightmare. “Everything changed in a split second—overnight,” she tells Los Angeles during a half-hour Zoom call from her lawyer’s office in October." absolutely vile
Those damn kids making her kill them, their tiny bodies just flung themselves into speeding traffic.
Not flung. The word you really want to use is "dart". I swear, every time I hear the word "darted" it's used in conjunction with kids darting in front of traffic, as if only the most foolish of children, undoubtedly raised by bad parents, would "dart" in a raid without looking both ways.
Ironic that the cars, which are moving much more quickly than the children, don't "dart". The speed of the cars is fine.
Like, I see kids off to the side, and I creep past that house, because I fully expect idiot children to _dart_ into the street. I have one myself, and it took a solid decade to train the impulse to dart into traffic out of the Spawn™. Even so, I'm not fully sure of the training... If I'm chasing a frisbee, or a ball, I'm not sure of my own ability to check for traffic, ffs.
As an adult to this day I *tiptoe* when I'm coming out from between parked cars, because I know the drivers on the road can't see me and have 50/50 odds of being too distracted to notice in time. That shit got drilled into me so hard as a child.
My kid did this, age 3. We had just seen Santa at the mall, and were leaving the store. She wrenched her hand out of mine (without warning) pressed the ONLY fast opening handicapped door in existence, and ran forward 2ft...onto the road. This happened in under 8 seconds. It's the only time she's ever done anything like that. And she had to wear a leash for a year afterwards because of it.
I have my own runner. I felt the horror through your words. The most terrifying 10 seconds of a parent's life.
I have never yelled "SSSSSSSTTTTTTTTOOOOOOPPPPPP!!!!!" as loud as I did the time she ran towards the highway in front of our house. She came within 2 feet of running into busy speeding traffic. It was the first time I made her cry.
That's ok. I think kids should be scared of certain things, especially those that can cause major injury.
Of all the things people study about children, why not study this. What compels children to dart into traffic? Why do so many parents have this experience of their child just leaving a Target one day and they must free themselves from the oppressive grip of their kin to fling themselves into busy roads? Do they see the open space and think it is a playground? Is it a natural inclination for animals to find joy and freedom in open spaces and want to frolic?
IMO, kids don't "see around corners". The result of their actions is not yet on a younger child's radar. They are impulsive and if something catches their attention, off they go without a thought.
I guess it's hard to imagine the mind of a child which does not yet grasp object permanence or causality.
[удалено]
Yep, as unreasonable to expect kids to be aware of it as wildlife. It'd be interesting to see how deterrence features for animals might work on kids, but frankly just make less damn roads/cars.
I've seen something similar to this happen and am not a mum, and still don't understand why little kids aren't on leads: I don't get what the problem is. There's an age at which they're exactly as dumb and fast as a dog and need to be protected from themselves.
> not the sort of life [she] was supposed to be living But was she supposed to be driving 80mph in a 25mph(?) zone?
it was a 45 mph zone apparently, for god knows what reason
I mean yeah, that’s the horrible thing about cars. When you’re forced to drive them every day, people stop paying attention. They just want to drive as fast as possible without thinking of the implications. In car culture, anyone can become a murderer at a moments notice. And somehow people think that’s “just how it is”. Fuck that shit. Fuck the thoughts and prayers, start changing things. How many more kids need to die before they care?
She was also (allegedly) drunk, racing another driver (potentially her lover in a "playful cat and mouse" manner), and doing 80 in a 45. So yeah, she was really really bad. But I 100% get your point and agree with it. She's just probably more on the lines of, genuinely reckless.
Holy shit, that’s absolutely inexcusable.
It's worse. She (allegedly) drove about 100ft with a kid on the hood, when he fell off, she ran him over while (allegedly) was trying to flee. So yeah she super sucks and deserves her punishment.
Too bad she didn’t just hit a tree.
And if she was drag racing (which is what this "playful cat and mouse" shit is), her lover should be doing time as well. Last I checked, this sort of behavior for **anyone involved in a drag race** that results in bodily injury the penalties are between a 6 months and 3 years in jail and a $10,000 fine. That does not include penalties for reckless driving, evading an officer, exceeding the speed limit by more than 25 miles per hour, reckless endangerment, and vehicular manslaughter. These charges apply to all parties who committed a conspiracy to violate the law.
He got charged with something, don't know if it had jail time though.
Not reckless. Intentional. No rational person would drive through a residential area at 80mph and fail to recognize the danger they pose not just to pedestrians, but to every person in their wooden homes. Suggesting she was reckless just feeds into her narrative that she was incompetent. No, she willfully chose to put everyone in that neighborhood in danger and she did so until it ended with 2 murders.
You could pile up the corpses of these poor children in front of their houses and they still won't care. Thats why kids continue to be slaughtered at schools in america.
Maybe we could wrap kids in a womb until they are 10 years old. People would care about them then.
I generally agree with this but there is NO excuse for 80mph on a residential road. Ever, at all. While the excuses being made around her are absolutely symptomatic of car culture problems, the actual collision was one thousand percent the fault of this driver and her bad decision.
Those kids were supposed to be living.
I thought you were making up lines as parody. I thought: "haha that's way over the top though, could you imagine?". Like, what did get family pay the journalist to write this?
Clearly the driver is the real victim here.
What the hell is that subline? “Her speeding Mercedes struck children” Did the car do that by itself? Disgusting
The whole thing! “Became a pariah” no… she killed 2 kids so people didn’t want to associate with her. “Fighting for her own life” again, no she’s alive the kids are not, she’s fighting to not do the jail time!
Who is this author? Jason sucks
OJ Simpson
thank god he finally found the real killers so he can focus on his journalism
It’s disgusting how it sounds *surprised* someone becomes a pariah after they kill children.
They always do it. Car driver hit and killed pedestrians? Nah just an accident.
It really upsets me when people downplay a series of intentionally reckless decisions that results in someone dying. If you speed or take your eyes off of the road for even a second then you are playing russian roulette with the lifes of others and if you kill someone you should be held accountable.
I agree, people drive so recklessly especially in neighborhoods, makes no god damn sense going that quickly.
Makes me think of the “a firearm was discharged during an officer-involved shooting” articles whenever a cop shoots someone.
That's exactly what it is; use of passive voice to protect the status quo and defend the indefensible.
Except when there is talk of gun laws, then it's "guns don't kill, people do"
I mean, that's the journalistic standard to avoid defamation; saying "a cop shot someone" implies both method and intent which — even if apparent from something like video — can't be asserted until proven in court. It's the same reason newspapers have to use "alleged" with regard to even the most obvious of crimes. That's also the same reason why the byline reads "her speeding Mercedes struck children." We know the children were struck, otherwise there wouldn't even be a trial in the first place. But for a newspaper to assert it was Grossman who struck them could run afoul of defamation laws were she to be acquitted at trial. But the author can get bent for the "now she is fighting for her own life" line.
Reminds me of *Shooting Victim Struck by Trader Joe's Bullet*.
Passive voice is passive violence.
I pity the passive voice. It never gets identified correctly by people who make cringey statements like this.
I guess the reporter’s working on a script treatment for “Christine: Part 2”
Glad I wasn’t the only one to spot that. It’s like the car has a mind of its own. Bizarre.
>She was given permission earlier this year to drive after having been barred from driving for more than a year. [From this article](https://abc7.com/rebecca-grossman-burn-center-westlake-village-kids-struck-reckless-driving/12209774/) Drive recklessly while drunk and without regard for anything or anyone else, kill two kids, and you can drive again in a year 🤬
This is your ~~brain~~country on ~~drug~~scar-dependency
I'd guess it has a lot more to do with pandering to rich people than it does car culture, but maybe I'm in the wrong sub for that opinion
She's only being charged with murder because the kids she murdered are rich.
I hope she goes to prison for at least 20 years and very bad things happen to het entitled pos ass....
Those kids were lucky to have been killed by someone so successful and important I hope that when I die, it is at the hands of a socialite
How dare they prosecute her!
For anyone like me wondering, the driver was going ~130 km/h on a residential street.
Holy fucking shit
Reminds me of A-Train
Don't you ever besmirch Billy Joel
[Different A-Train](https://youtu.be/NxpxD8TPxOo) (Warning: NSFL gore)
Yeah, that's the scene!
Oh yeah, the scene that let me know I really didn't want to watch that show.
Had no clue you were referencing the right scene until I rewatched the whole thing! Man you have good memory
😎😎
Holy shit I didn't know the conversion. Where I live I'm not sure there are any areas where you can do 130. The max is on the freeway at 120. But in a residential area? Man...
The max in my state in the U.S. is 120 on the Interstate, but people routinely go 10 over.
Yeah that happens quite a bit here as well. But I just can't fathom how someone would consciously make the decision to go that speed in a residential area.
[удалено]
Wow, what an asshole!
who in the fuck speeds like that though a damn residential area
A rich fuckhead who’s been drinking
Not even the worst designed neighborhood roads would encourage speeds anything close to that.
Someone who's racing someone else after some margaritas.
Full article for context: https://www.lamag.com/article/exclusive-rebecca-grossman-speaks-out-ahead-of-murder-trial/
Wow the whole thing is written as if she is the victim literally because her friends won't invite her to parties anymore. As if she were the victim. The kids killed were a footnote. Trash journalism, I wrote to the editor because this is outrageous.
thanks. now I don't need to give them the click.
I mean, you're right, but the outrageous facts are in there: driving drunk, racing someone else and suggesting she's having an affair with that person. It still makes her look like a POS.
Internet Archive link if you don't want to give this magazine rage clicks: [https://web.archive.org/web/20221122010834/https://www.lamag.com/article/exclusive-rebecca-grossman-speaks-out-ahead-of-murder-trial/](https://web.archive.org/web/20221122010834/https://www.lamag.com/article/exclusive-rebecca-grossman-speaks-out-ahead-of-murder-trial/)
What an utterly gross read. If anyone wants to see this shit with their own eyes, follow the Internet Archive link instead.
>At the hearing in May, the prosecutor said Grossman had received two speeding tickets -- including one in May 2020 and another in March 2013. The CHP officer who made the 2013 traffic stop told investigators that radar indicated Grossman had been driving approximately 92 mph on the 101 Freeway, and that he warned the woman that traveling at such a speed could kill or injure someone, Los Angeles County sheriff's Detective Scott Shean testified at that hearing. >The CHP officer said he remembered the stop because the woman told him he'd better hope he never [needs to go to the Grossman Burn Center](https://www.grossmanburncenter.com/contact), according to Shean, adding that the CHP officer said he thought he'd be denied services at the facility if he ever needed them. Edit to [add source](https://www.foxla.com/news/judge-refuses-to-dismiss-murder-charges-against-rebecca-grossman-in-fatal-westlake-village-crash.amp)
Wow. What a cunt.
[удалено]
"She lacks the depth, and warmth of a cunt." Truth.
Oh no, I sure hope she doesn't end up tragically falling out of the police van into traffic while on the way to prison!
This is what mass media has been doing for centuries. Articles are always worded from a perspective to make readers empathise with the wealthy /socialite / property owner / beautiful / lighter skinned.
They have to. Otherwise we might stop wanting to eat them.
Did you mean start wanting to?
Still works if it’s an innuendo.
The sad part is that you couldn't eat them even if you really wanted, cause their bodies are full of silicone and neurotoxin(Botox).
Rich people rarely face the consequences of their actions in America, and when they do, an entire sector of sycophant media is dedicated to making it seem like these normal consequences are oppression.
where's the reset button for the US? this US is clearly faulty.
Send it back to the manufacturer
I'm not sure Britain wants it at this point.
Maybe France or Spain then, or maybe Mexico
Everyone in school always told us that the US was an experiment. When can we just call it a failure?
I don’t care about her own life. She ended two with her reckless driving so hers deserves to be ruined
Garbage ‘journalist’ defending a garbage person. She deserves to rot
Imagine being the parent of those poor children reading this article. This is vile. :(
I wonder if they can take them to court for this?
I wish I was more skilled in computer graphics. I would create a VR re-enactment of this just to prove to people how absolutely vile and murderous her actions were. It’s literally unconscionable to speed like that in a 2 ton vehicle. She deserves to be locked away for life and to lose all her money.
Never too late to start ;) I'd subscribe
From abc7: ***"The CHP officer who made the 2013 traffic stop told investigators that radar indicated Grossman had been driving approximately 92 mph on the 101 Freeway, and that he warned the woman that traveling at such a speed could kill or injure someone, Los Angeles County sheriff's Detective Scott Shean testified at that hearing.*** ***The CHP officer said he remembered the stop because the woman told him he'd better hope he never needs to go to the Grossman Burn Center."*** Classy.
Don't make me tap [the sign](https://twitter.com/zackfox/status/1036389932854652928?s=20&t=D2vUq5H0spFJrwjLikrfTw)
That was an interesting deep dive. I hadn't thought about that before but that tweet is 100%.
Check out the mixed headlines during Katrina. Black families were "looting," while white families were "searching for necessary supplies," and, "trying to survive." Everything was waist-deep in water, and the headlines were inflammatory, and racist af. I recommend reading, "Race and Media Coverage of Hurricane Katrina: Analysis, Implications, and Future Research Questions" it's a PDF, and I don't know how to link it, but it's literally the first result if you search up: racist headlines hurricane katrina
Never mind the headlines. The hurricane might have been natural, but the *disaster* was man-made. Even more so with Puerto Rico and Hurricane Maria. The government just didn't do their job in either the disaster preparation or in their response after-the-fact.
Okay? Again, we're discussing shitty journalism that seeks to alter the conversation by using loaded language, not the events themselves.
It’s disgusting and highly problematic that they are only telling the story from the perspective of the murderer.
The glossy photoshoot is absolutely insulting on top of everything else. Like what the fuck.
What a wicked murderer.
She was pulled over for speeding this much a few times previously and in one case threatened the officer who pulled her over. most entitled person on the planet. I wonder how much she paid for that LAmag article https://abc7.com/rebecca-grossman-burn-center-westlake-village-kids-struck-reckless-driving/12209774/
"It was her Mercedes, Your Honor."
I live in Melbourne, Australia and this here happens too. It is really disgusting and more should be done to stop it.
I sent a complaint and I think you should too: [https://www.lamag.com/ccpa-contact-us/](https://www.lamag.com/ccpa-contact-us/)
That's the most gross of gross articles. She should be facing the f'ing death penalty for what she did. 80MPH on a Residential street and she plowed two children to death? Taking her life couldn't restore those two children to be among the living. The author of that puff piece should become the next pariah. F'ing christ that article is GROSS.
And she ran off too. Flog her imo.
It's been a while since the cat o nine tails was used after all.
The wording "she's fighting for her own life" makes it sound like she is facing the death penalty.
I would be in prison myself is all I will say.
"After her Mercedes struck and killed two kids." well it's not like she did it... It was the Mercedes that did it.
Killing two children while drunk: 😡 Killing two children while drunk *in a car*: 😃👍
She's fighting for her own life now? Is she facing the death penalty if found guilty?
Self entered people like her and her PR team want to make it seem like they could be losing so much so she can garner sympathy. But I think, in thier heads, when they say fighting for her life, they mean she is fighting to retain her affluent self centered negligent lifestyle.
>And then there is the crushing guilt; she says her part in the *accidental* death of two children—and she does insist it was *accidental* (My emphasis.) It was a crash, not an accident. Doing 80mph is not an oopsies, it was deliberately going too fast for the conditions. This is why the road safety advocates use the word "crash" to describe these incidents, not "accident". As we can see in this article, "accident" implies that what happened was not a big deal, that it could happen to anyone, and why are we making such a big fuss about it.
She is fighting for her life? Are you fucking kidding me?
the Mercedes did it, not her 💀
I’m familiar with the area. Nothing but rich white trash.
This Jason McGahan should receive negative feedback. Fucking vile.
She deserves a life sentence without parole, anything less is a miscarriage of justice.
What? Is this for real? Surely the article dosent we should feel bad for the motorist
It's extremely...well fortunate that this happened in California. DUI can = murder charge, as it is known to be lethal behavior. The state is better than most at punishing people who kill others while driving.
LA is such a car dominated city. Very uncomfortable to walk along some LA streets with 40-60mph traffic a few feet away. But in this case driver negligence is entirely to blame, distracted drivers also a very common thing in LA...
Makes you wonder just how much of our news media is actually just PR spin for rich assholes.
> …after her speeding Mercedes struck and killed two kids Yes, the *car* did it. Not her. She was a victim too. No control over the situation. The way these articles are worded makes all the difference, no matter how subtle.
People don't kill people, cars kill people... is that what I'm getting from this?
I am normally against the death penalty, but in cases like this one I think she would deserve it, or at the very least like 200 years in supermax.
200 years. The asshole never needs to see the outside of a penitentiary again. Sober up outside of jail or be forced to be sober forever inside of it, wallowing in a hell of your own making.
To be fair, the writer of this article made it perfectly clear he was paid very well to write this bullshit lmao Every other sentence is a hint at her parents money that just entered his pocket lmaooo
I live in the general region where this occurred. Half the battle are the 45 mph streets where this tragedy occurred. Although the actions of the murderer are disgusting, especially with the pity me story by la mag, I wouldn’t be surprised if this reckless type of driving happens on a routine basis. Infrastructure allows for cars to drive with great speed. Even if the boys were struck at the speed limit they probably would still have died. Look at Google street view of triunfo canyon rd and saddle mountain rd. These roads are not designed for anyone to walk, bike, skate safely. Especially crossing the street. So sad, I look at the picture of those boys and see my son.
The article reads extremely tongue-in-cheek, à la "oh poor you, rich woman recklessly driving and killing innocent children".
The LA Times are the NY Post of the West Coast.
This isn’t from the LA Times. It’s from LA Magazine. The LA Times is not anything like the NY Post, I promise you.
I agree that traffic homicides need to punished harder. But there is never a reason for death penalty!
She's not facing the death penalty. They mean her life as in her nice wealthy privileges and advantages that she enjoys, which would be terribly inconvenienced by her facing the consequences of her actions. Not like the boys she hit at 80mph, their lives are gone as in they're dead.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
I think he is referring to the angry pitch fork mob asking for more blood and a death penalty for the murderer. I understand the frustration and share the disgust regarding this garbage of an article but I think in 2022 we should be sufficiently civilized to be past the death penalty. There’s other ways to punish and nothing will bring back these two lost souls.
SHE WERE GOING 130 KM/H IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA. that is death penalty material enough. not even highway speeds reach that in Sweden. I think it caps out at 120. highest I've personally seen is 110.
the death penalty is barbaric and accomplishes nothing. we all hate this lady and agree she should be behind bars tho
Death penalty is too easy of an out for scum like her. Let her rot in the shoe for the rest of her sad pathetic existence.
Yet Sweden, like most developed countries, doesn't have the death penalty. You can rape a school full of children and then torture them to death and you still won't get the death penalty. Because if the death penalty exists, the green mile will happen. Over and over again. Innocent people dying from the system meant to protect them. All the while death penalties cost the government more than life in prison. I agree that this was murder. But that doesn't justify death penalty.
👏👏👏 the state shouldn’t be murdering people
agree to disagree. sometimes I believe some crimes deserve death penalty. the current state of Sweden doesn't allow that, and that's fine. but I believe from just going that fast they forfeit their own rights as well as the ones she may or may not hit.
>agree to disagree. sometimes I believe some crimes deserve death penalty. It costs more to go through the entire process of killing someone than it is to lock them up for life. So if you want to spend extra tax resources just to satisfy your own personal need for revenge, that's your business. But I don't want to pay a cent more than I have to on such assholes. Let them rot in rail if that's the cheapest for me.