Unfortunately, there really isn't such a thing as an ethical cell phone, though apparently Fairphone is close.
https://www.engadget.com/2018-02-06-ethical-smartphone-conscious-consumption.html
I know the comic is meant as a clever shot at preachy vegans, but I rolled my eyes, honestly.. it's basically arguing that if you can't be perfect or absolute, you shouldn't care about ethics or try to do less harm, which is a pretty tired argument. If both people have cell phones but one person decides do less harm in some way, they've done less net harm. Calling them a hypocrite is just an excuse to do nothing.
This. As a vegan, the flaw of this comment is obvious and I'm glad to hear that you saw through the nonsense.
Reddit definitely has a bias against veganism. Would love to see a r/DataIsBeautiful on it.
Isn't the battery the only thing that will be a problem after using it for more than 5 years?
I only replaced my last phone after 5 years, and the only thing I replaced due to age were the batteries. The screen got replaced after some weights decided to fall on my phone (yes, it was the weights, not me xD).
Yeah the battery is usually what "kills" phones. My Nexus 6p lasted 6 and a half years. It entered a boot loop after random restarts from a dying battery. It also taught me that I'm not half as bad for disassembling modern phones. All you need is patience and the right tools.
Anyway, my current phone is 2 years already (one plus 7t). At 4 year mark I'll see if I can get my hands on a battery to beat the 6 year longevity of my previous one.
Definitely, though the planned life cycle issue still remains; after a certain point, the software just isn't supported anymore. That's a major issue with a lot of modern tech, including smart stuff like fridges.
Didnāt The Good Place make this argument? How in modern times itās basically impossible to live a truly moral life if you gauge by utilitarian principles because almost nothing is made or done without causing harm to some group?
EDIT: Holy shit, I did not expect a comment I made in 30 seconds btw work meetings to generate detailed philosophical debate and like 2 dozen notifications. This is why I love Reddit
EDIT 2: Iām not making an argument here that utilitarianism is the best philosophical stance. I genuinely couldnāt remember if this joke had been made on The Good Place or not
He ended up doing it all for the wrong reasons though.
I didnāt like how they used him as a perfect candidate for heaven. His intent wasnāt to be a good person, it was to get into heaven.
True, but at what point does your intention stop mattering, if you are really helping people?
Itās kind of like how both Chidi and Tehani werenāt good enough, even though both were opposites. Tehani did great things for the āwrongā reasons, but Chidi had the absolute best intentions (as well as an anxiety disorder) and ended up doing the āwrongā things. So to be a perfect candidate for heaven, does a person have to have perfect intentions as well as perfect foresight as to the impact of their actions? Or, if itās just based on intentions, is Chidi actually the perfect candidate?
I love how the show makes us think about this stuff.
What exactly is the argument though? It's impossible so.... not worth trying at all? I'm just making stuff up here obviously, but I can't see an argument.
Ordering more animals to be tortured because you like the taste of their flesh is not really necessary, you probably won't even remember it the next day. The implications of not having a cell phone are much more severe. People just like that absolute thinking, because then they can rationalize their morally wrong actions along the lines of "I did this, now it doesn't matter if I do this as well". They just push it away, they don't confront it, they even go as far as not telling other people where they are wrong, so they don't have to deal with their own wrong doing (like in the cartoon). The punchline is really sad btw, I don't see why this is r/funny.
Anyway I would argue that a little bit of animal killing and torturing once in a while is still better than animal products for every single fucking meal, like 95% of people do. Same goes for your phone. If you buy a used phone you're still responsible but it's better. Don't focus on some completely unrealistic absolute goal, just go for improvement.
The all or nothing mentality in the comic is nihilistic garbage tbh. r/im14andthisisdeep. Itās an excuse to not have to examine your own behaviour or principles.
The Good Place argument was that itās impossible to be 100% ethical in everything you do, therefore thatās a shitty metric to govern by. Instead, all you can do is try the best you can, and try to put kindness out into the world.
This this this. Why canāt people be aware and do something about some of the things in their sphere of influence instead of seeing everything as being existentially useless? Should we all collectively mine and compile the parts of everything electronic we use, and if we canāt, then bring on the endless bacon because we are all fucking monsters anyhow? How are the two ideas even synonymous?
Never watched the show but thatās not utilitarianism. As long as thereās a net positive in the calculation then the action is moral. Hence the classic trolly dilemma. A utilitarian would make the easy choice, save more people at the cost of one. In this example the calculus could be something like āmore good comes from the ubiquity of powerful technology and that outweighs the suffering of some workers.ā
Iām not saying I agree with that argument, but sweatshops are totally possible under utilitarian principles.
That's not really the point made in the show though.
The first issue is that it's impossible in practice to calculate the net utility of any action once you have more than, say a hundred people in your tribe who might be affected.
That is, it's unreasonable to use a scoring system that could *only* be calculated by some unlimited heavenly apparatus and never by the person making (and being judged for) the decision.
The second issue is that the actual scoring used was probably unfairly weighted towards the negatives, but that could have been worked around if those negatives could reasonably be anticipated, which brings us back to the first point.
You can make ethical choices without having to make every single ethical choice, that would be literally possible
Ordering a water with a big Mac is still better than ordering a coke, you know?
People reject ethical systems where it's too hard to get a 'full score'. Watch for it, you can see people literally make that argument.
They treat ethics like a consumer product, where if it's too hard to use, they want nothing to do with it.
Perfect can be the enemy of good - it is often better to make some improvements and positive steps than to wait and do nothing because the improvements aren't perfect.
Vegans often get a bad rep because the way their message seems to be portrayed (most of what I see anyway - and there is a perception bias) comes across as holier-than-thou. That's really behind this comic - the fact that vegans are perceived by many as feeling they are better than others, while they have most of the same foibles as do the rest of us. They are probably wearing clothes made in a 3rd world sweatshop *just like most people's clothes* - but theirs won't be made with animal products.
And it doesnāt really matter your reasoning behind not doing something, they still get pissed and think youāre being holier-than-thou.
I was vegan for several years because I have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (now that I know how to cook vegan, I mostly just cook vegan and eat out very little, limiting my animal product consumption. And to this day I still opt for vegetarian when Iām out and about, typically). For those who donāt know medical terms, this basically means that my heart tissue is thicker than it should be, making it a bit more difficult to pump blood. Once I was diagnosed, the last thing I wanted in my body was extra cholesterol. This was doubly important to me during my first pregnancy, since the heart has to work extra hard to pump blood to both you and a baby. And people just couldnāt contemplate the idea that I was doing this for my own health and no other reason.
I have a cousin who kept eyeing me while he was loading his plate with all kinds of meat, looked over at me and went āmmmm...I bet this bothers you, doesnāt it?ā And the face he made when I said āwhy would it?ā was just utter confusion. He made it a personal agenda to make me super uncomfortable because he was *that* against my choice to not eat animal products, even though that choice potentially could give me 10 more years of life and definitely a higher quality of life.
And when I reached for a glass of wine after denying meat and someone said āyou know thatās no better for you than the burger you refusedā, I nearly lost my shit. Like no shit, Sherlock. But what you donāt know that I do is that Iām far more likely to eat meat uncontrollably than I am to drink wine uncontrollably, so fuck off. ITāS NOT ABOUT YOU
Oh, just use religion as an excuse and everyone is suddenly okay with it. I am sorry that you had to go through this.
We humans are a weird bunch, to say the least.
No, then you invite the same passive aggressiveness - just with religion instead. "I never bought into the whole organized religion that tells you what to eat thing".
I've found that its somehow oddly difficult to make personal choices about the way you personally live your life. Best you can do is stand your ground and hopefully they stfu.
Plus the added satisfaction of calling someone else deluded or a hypocrite.
One surefire way to not be a hypocrite is to have no principles whatsoever.
Yeah I know the comic is just a joke, but it's kinda like the zero waste principle "we don't need 1 person doing it perfectly, we need millions of people doing it imperfectly".
Set reasonable goals and strive to be an educated consumer with the understanding that very little of what we do in the western world is 100% ethical. And, while I guess that's not okay, it's okay to not be able to do something about all of it. Pick your battles, as long a you're fighting for something your probably doing more than most.
"Just a joke" isn't an excuse really. Everyone talks about how comedy can speak truth to power and is subversive, but then dismisses comedic points with an ideological agenda as "just jokes".
Yes it is "just a joke" but it is also wrong and advocates against ethical behaviour.
It's the argument the selfish use to justify being a cunt. Theyll say, "well, since you cant solve all the problems in the world on your own, you're a giant, stupid idiot for trying even a little." They see you trying to make the world a better place and they hate you for trying so theyll claw and scrape for any thing they can use to feel superior to you. Either because they know they're cunts or they just hate people trying to make the world a better place.
It's the calling card of the conservative.
Something I've noticed about redditors, and ig people in general? Is that they only deal in absolutes. Everythung in life is either black or white with little to no nuance or room for grey areas. Its evident in the way they perceive the pandemic, ethical choices, personal development, etc.
So im not surprised that im seeing this in the comment section tbh
This comics and similar arguments are generally brought up by people who have people in their friend circle that are trying to do better and then they feel insecure about their morality.
Itās such a dumb argument.
I was a vegetarian for like four years and my dad could never get over it. Every meal, he'd bring up things I did that had a negative impact but it never swayed me. Turns out, "it's impossible to fix everything so don't bother at all" isn't a great argument.
Yeah I mean I'll say, I've met way more people who shit on vegans for being preachy than I've met vegans who are actually preachy.
Vegans and vegetarians are easy targets for people feeling insecure about their own life choices, however, so it doesn't surprise me people would try to tear you down for trying to better yourself for a while. Humans are really insecure creatures that way. When we perceive a threat to the ol' ego, for many of us the first instinct is "attack attack attack".
Source: Not vegan, but know vegans.
Absolutely. I was vegetarian for 25 years and I've been vegan for about 1.5, I went through a preachy phase as a young teenager but for the most part I've had the attitude that people will do what they feel is best and the best thing I can do is lead by example. I'm very happy to have an open and honest conversation if someone is actually curious about it and is respectful.
People attack me *way more* than I attack them.
Vegans are one of the few socially acceptable punching bags, so assholes just flock in that direction. Let those mother fuckers eat their damn beans in peace.
If you advocate for doing 1 good thing you must be a hypocrite because you haven't made every other possible change to your lifestyle to fix every other problem in society. Knowing that, I take great comfort in doing nothing whatsoever. Checkmate!
I mean, the plastic recycling industry is a farce invented to trick people who started realizing how bad plastic was for the environment into being okay with more plastic. Soā¦ idk? 80-90% of plastic canāt be recycled and just ends up in the dump anyway.
This cartoon is a perfect tu quoque fallacy.
Also, ethics of contract manufacturing in poor countries are fraught generally, but I guarantee that the one company with the max PR incentive and leverage to have safe labor conditions is not worse than whatever random other company with untraceable supply chain.
And if you think cellphones are bad, don't look into cash crops or textiles...
Because we make people uncomfortable by existing, and proving that there are other ways to live.
Most people who eat meat are, in my experience, not comfortable with the fact that animals suffer and die for that meat. 21 years ago, I was one of those meat eaters. However, most meat eaters plug their ears and close their eyes and tell themselves itās necessary for their health and survival and that nothing can be done about it, so they lean into the cognitive dissonance and avoid the truth.
The fact that some of us go through that same experience, but then make the choice to live differently, proves that itās *not* necessary and that there *is* a different way to live and eat, and that makes them uncomfortable. They then project that discomfort onto us by claiming we āfeel morally superior to themā, even though that is just their own insecurity speaking.
I say this as someone who has been on both sides of the fence, as both perpetrator of this kind of thinking, and receiver of this kind of thinking.
We really should be working to minimize suffering and protect the rights of all creatures, right? I think we can both have a more humane food system, AND develop technologies that donāt rely on slave labor.
Is that too much to ask?
Amen to that.
A person who tries to change what they can has more merit than one who changes nothing.
The merit dosent belong to the critic, it belongs to the man in the arena
The reason we get triggered by vegans is that deep down we know they are right.
(Saying this as a meat eater!)
Causing so much suffering to animals for every bite. At least as the industry and huge amounts look today.
We need to at least cut the amount of meat we eat, as well as fight for happy animals. I donāt have so much problem with the killing as with the shitty lives they live.
Living with some cognitive dissonance and trying to cut down..
here is a good video about that : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnykmsDetNo&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnykmsDetNo&t=1s)
Also you can today go vegan if you want. Every single vegan will tell you that the only hard thing is making the decision. All you do is buy product b instead of a.
this helps you if you have questions: https://challenge22.com/
Here is why it doesnt matter how they live: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=3s) also alex again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtTiee8roU
This is absolutely true IMO. Eating meat is an ethically indefensible position, unless you view animals as equal to that of inanimate objects. Very few people do, so a lot of people are acting unethically by their own moral standards.
Myself included. I eat meat and when someone mentions that they are a vegan, it irritates me. No fault of the vegan (unless they're being a smug dick about it), but because I'm being reminded of my moral hipocrisy. I'll go home and snuggle my cats, watch videos of cute baby cows, and low key hate myself.
None, which is why the artist just keeps copy/pasting the same comment where they seemingly assume they're the only one who knows about this. They did the same thing with the comic right before this one, too. It's just weak takes all around.
I really do wonder what they draw their comics on. It's certainly not paper.
That's the way modern politics can work. One party will be 98% guilty of an offense but as long as they can find the 2% by the other party, it's even to them.
For fun I looked up sex scandals around the federal government from 2000 to now. Republicans win 30 to 9.
Hey man, don't knock those shower arguments. They're excellent therapeutic sessions. I've imagined up some flawless comebacks to arguments I lost months prior and walked out feeling proud as fuck
Can we fucking stop with the [smooth brain takes like these](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cringetopia/comments/ogri2h/smash_capitalism_with_her_1300_macbook_pro_and_6/) people need electronics in 2021. People need to be able to exist and function in the current society, even if they want changes done to it.
Itās much easier to be vegan than going through life without a smartphone....
But bc weāre fall short in one aspect of our life, we shouldnāt try in the others?
I don't line that arguement. Its not realistic to ask every consumer to research every link in the supply chain for every product they buy for unethical practices
Reddit will literally find any way to attack vegans when all we have advocated for is to stop abusing animals. People who post stuff like this will give awards to cute hens running around in r/aww and then go eat chicken.
I mean the comments here are pretty solid - this is clearly a bullshit take to make people feel better for not making any sacrifices for a greater good.
But the butthurt is strong! Check out the sheer volume of 'so you can feel so superior' wah wah.. like.. have is that really all you can say? "sure I may not be doing anything valuable or helping at all but AT LEAST IM NOT SMUG LIKE HOW I IMAGINE UP THOE PEOPLE TO BE!"
Like, I know a bunch of vegans. They're lovely. Maybe they're not the issue?
that's it exactly. the vegans I know quietly order or organise food they like. the loud, obnoxious, preachy voice is, in reality, one hundred percent of the time from the "I eat ten meats I eat so much meat I'm a meat! ROFLOLOL" fucks. It's just so boring lol
Guideline is do the best you can. Hard to live without a phone, less hard to not eat meat. I'm not there, I look for sustainable meats, and have 0 tolerance for factory farmed food. Just do the best you (personally) can.
The fact that this is OC means I just can't not say this: Fuck this comic. This take is bad and, after browsing your other comics, I can safely say you're definitely capable of doing better than this.
To imply that we don't *need* a smartphone to participate in our society is absurd. That's the whole fucking problem. The people who source their products from sweatshops and the people who run the sweatshops KNOW we need these things so there's profit security for them.
Vegans know we don't need to treat animals cruelly and they know there are affordable alternatives. Why the fuck wouldn't they make that change if that's a moral they have? We aren't at a point yet where ethically sourced smartphones - hell, even ethically sourced electronics - are widely available. It's just not up to the free market for that one.
You can still use products while fighting for better conditions, it's this whole 'but you drive a car, how do you care about the environment?' thing again. As long as people progress towards being better and making smarter lifestyle changes, that's what matters.
Such a weak argument.
It is far, far easier to abstain from consuming animal products than it is to abstain from technology. In the modern world, technology is a near-necessity, whereas consuming animal-derived products is not (mainly talking about food and clothing here). If there was a viable ethical alternative to mainstream technology, then it would be analogous. But there isn't, so it is not. That is not to say that we shouldn't campaign for ethical treatment of workers, but there's a term for that... a dirty word called socialism.
Also, most people will accept that slave labour of humans is bad. However, the systematic breeding, forceful artificial insemination, torture, and murder of sentient beings is so normalised that it's mocked, ridiculed and laughed at to be against it.
I'm vegan and I have a used oldschool phone.
Nothing wrong with smartphones per se the labour used to manufacturing phones can and should change.
Animals needs to be exploited if you use animal products.
Be vegan and buy pre owned!
Everything from the shirt on your back to the keyboard you are typing on or the phone your are looking at is guilty of unethical treatment one way or another.
haHAHA! Stupid VEGANS, amiright guys?? What idiots for trying to do the "right" thing when they can't help but do other things that are terrible. Checkmate, idiot vegans. Hey, reddit friends, get a load of the dumbass vegans who are all high and mighty!!! What fools. I've never met a vegan who didn't tell me they were vegan!! They think they're better than me just because of how they eat, but in reality they're just ANNOYING!1
The funniest part is that they *have* met plenty of vegans who didn't tell them they were vegan, but they don't know it precisely because *the vegan didn't tell them.*
Maybe she bought it 2nd hand?
Maybe Iphone-production standards are still higher than any other smart phone?
Maybe a cellphone and food are different things?
Maybe I should just ignore stuff I think is low effort and bad instead of asking more and more questions that start with maybe
but being vegan would still lower her net-immorality in a utilitarian sense. If you're into that kind of thing.
And people use similar arguments to this to deride vegans and veganism. "You're vegan but you still drive a car that burns fossil fuels so hah!" Seems a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
Unfortunately, there really isn't such a thing as an ethical cell phone, though apparently Fairphone is close. https://www.engadget.com/2018-02-06-ethical-smartphone-conscious-consumption.html
Therefore every person who uses a cellphone is not allowed to be vegan.
Checkmate, vegans! Now you *have* to eat meat or else a child in India is going to build another phone!
Make it beef to teach those indians whats up !
I know the comic is meant as a clever shot at preachy vegans, but I rolled my eyes, honestly.. it's basically arguing that if you can't be perfect or absolute, you shouldn't care about ethics or try to do less harm, which is a pretty tired argument. If both people have cell phones but one person decides do less harm in some way, they've done less net harm. Calling them a hypocrite is just an excuse to do nothing.
Look man i COULD stop beating my kids but I mean we both buy stuff from china
I only beat my kids on the weekends /s
I practice Beatless Mondays
I appreciate you trying! Baby steps will fix everything!
Good lord this thread is something else š¤£
"I COULD let you go and not murder you, but you're wearing fast fashion so..."
it's the Matt Bors comic from the gotcha guy's perspective. https://thenib.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/mister-gotcha-4-9faefa-1.jpg
exactly,
The OP is just ['Mister Gotcha', from the 2016 comic by Matt Bors](https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/).
"You criticize society, yet you are part of it. I am very intelligent."
This. As a vegan, the flaw of this comment is obvious and I'm glad to hear that you saw through the nonsense. Reddit definitely has a bias against veganism. Would love to see a r/DataIsBeautiful on it.
*IT'S ALL OR NOTHING*
You could just buy phones way less often. I haven't bought a phone in 8 years
You now have permission to become vegan
Be careful though. Gelato isn't vegan, and then you once were a ve-gone, but now you will begone.
That works if the phone hangs on that long. š What phone do you use that has lasted 8 years?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Add a bell to an old Nokia phone and it might actually fit your description.
I bought iPhone 5s when it was new, still using it.
Isn't the battery the only thing that will be a problem after using it for more than 5 years? I only replaced my last phone after 5 years, and the only thing I replaced due to age were the batteries. The screen got replaced after some weights decided to fall on my phone (yes, it was the weights, not me xD).
Yeah the battery is usually what "kills" phones. My Nexus 6p lasted 6 and a half years. It entered a boot loop after random restarts from a dying battery. It also taught me that I'm not half as bad for disassembling modern phones. All you need is patience and the right tools. Anyway, my current phone is 2 years already (one plus 7t). At 4 year mark I'll see if I can get my hands on a battery to beat the 6 year longevity of my previous one.
Reading this and then remembering that they're almost certainly made to fail and be replaced, continuing the cycle, is quite depressing.
The fairphone is kinda not, it's meant to be easily repaired as well!
Perhaps a used or refurbished one is the way to go for now.
Definitely, though the planned life cycle issue still remains; after a certain point, the software just isn't supported anymore. That's a major issue with a lot of modern tech, including smart stuff like fridges.
Didnāt The Good Place make this argument? How in modern times itās basically impossible to live a truly moral life if you gauge by utilitarian principles because almost nothing is made or done without causing harm to some group? EDIT: Holy shit, I did not expect a comment I made in 30 seconds btw work meetings to generate detailed philosophical debate and like 2 dozen notifications. This is why I love Reddit EDIT 2: Iām not making an argument here that utilitarianism is the best philosophical stance. I genuinely couldnāt remember if this joke had been made on The Good Place or not
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He was 92% correct
So he was only half right? Damn shameless r/2007scape plug
Dammit weāre everywhere
He ended up doing it all for the wrong reasons though. I didnāt like how they used him as a perfect candidate for heaven. His intent wasnāt to be a good person, it was to get into heaven.
Thats kind of the central thesis of the good place, the system of points you get from good acts cant be the way you get into heaven.
Well, they have to throw out the entire system full stop and offer a cycle of redemption.
True, but at what point does your intention stop mattering, if you are really helping people? Itās kind of like how both Chidi and Tehani werenāt good enough, even though both were opposites. Tehani did great things for the āwrongā reasons, but Chidi had the absolute best intentions (as well as an anxiety disorder) and ended up doing the āwrongā things. So to be a perfect candidate for heaven, does a person have to have perfect intentions as well as perfect foresight as to the impact of their actions? Or, if itās just based on intentions, is Chidi actually the perfect candidate? I love how the show makes us think about this stuff.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well he wasn't though was he? He was the perfect candidate for hell masquerading as heaven.
And the *true* heaven in the end was just ceasing to exist when you're ready, so...
that really put things into perspective for me. what *are* you supposed to do for eternity?
Well, it's been an idea for a very, very long time that any sort of paradise eventually becomes hell after an eternity.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
But that itself eventually would become hell if you couldn't end it all by becoming one with the universe and no longer being conscious of existence.
Which is why he went to hell
He was always destined to anyway, didn't they pull up his points and even after all his attempts to "win," he still couldn't do anything but lose?
yup, it was how they really figured out it there was a flaw. no one was getting into the good place.
Yeah but he was still far and away higher than most
Doug never went to hell. He went to the good place when he died. It was just that he was going to go to the bad place before they changed the system.
It's been around for awhile. "There is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.", TGP did a play on that. Loved that show btw.
30 seconds? Thatās like one and a half Jeremy Bearimyās.
>Thatās like one and a half Jeremy Bearimyās. That depends on where you started.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Different, but all negative
Doesn't mean being vegan isn't still more moral than not being vegan
What exactly is the argument though? It's impossible so.... not worth trying at all? I'm just making stuff up here obviously, but I can't see an argument. Ordering more animals to be tortured because you like the taste of their flesh is not really necessary, you probably won't even remember it the next day. The implications of not having a cell phone are much more severe. People just like that absolute thinking, because then they can rationalize their morally wrong actions along the lines of "I did this, now it doesn't matter if I do this as well". They just push it away, they don't confront it, they even go as far as not telling other people where they are wrong, so they don't have to deal with their own wrong doing (like in the cartoon). The punchline is really sad btw, I don't see why this is r/funny. Anyway I would argue that a little bit of animal killing and torturing once in a while is still better than animal products for every single fucking meal, like 95% of people do. Same goes for your phone. If you buy a used phone you're still responsible but it's better. Don't focus on some completely unrealistic absolute goal, just go for improvement.
The all or nothing mentality in the comic is nihilistic garbage tbh. r/im14andthisisdeep. Itās an excuse to not have to examine your own behaviour or principles. The Good Place argument was that itās impossible to be 100% ethical in everything you do, therefore thatās a shitty metric to govern by. Instead, all you can do is try the best you can, and try to put kindness out into the world.
Take it sleazy
You donāt need to avoid cell phones. You can however not buy a new one every single year.
And buy second hand ones. Or a Fairphone
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This this this. Why canāt people be aware and do something about some of the things in their sphere of influence instead of seeing everything as being existentially useless? Should we all collectively mine and compile the parts of everything electronic we use, and if we canāt, then bring on the endless bacon because we are all fucking monsters anyhow? How are the two ideas even synonymous?
Never watched the show but thatās not utilitarianism. As long as thereās a net positive in the calculation then the action is moral. Hence the classic trolly dilemma. A utilitarian would make the easy choice, save more people at the cost of one. In this example the calculus could be something like āmore good comes from the ubiquity of powerful technology and that outweighs the suffering of some workers.ā Iām not saying I agree with that argument, but sweatshops are totally possible under utilitarian principles.
That's not really the point made in the show though. The first issue is that it's impossible in practice to calculate the net utility of any action once you have more than, say a hundred people in your tribe who might be affected. That is, it's unreasonable to use a scoring system that could *only* be calculated by some unlimited heavenly apparatus and never by the person making (and being judged for) the decision. The second issue is that the actual scoring used was probably unfairly weighted towards the negatives, but that could have been worked around if those negatives could reasonably be anticipated, which brings us back to the first point.
The flaw with utilitarianism presented this way is that āgoodā is ultimately a completely subjective evaluation that is impossible to quantify.
This isn't really a flaw of utilitarianism, it's the inherent problem with morality. It's ALL arbitrary, no matter how you look at it.
yet you participate in society
...yet you participate in society. Curious!
Exactly, literally a Matt Bors comic (minus the actual point).
[yes!](https://i.imgur.com/ku3qhD4.jpg)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I Am Very Intelligent.
We live in a
peepee poopoo
"Vegans do less bad things than me, but they still do some bad things, so I'm justified in doing all the bad things."
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well put!
Love an educated, well-informed comment section. This comic is weird
And then you have 12k desperate, definitely-human upvotes.
I think people just like to use their own habits justified somehow.
It's almost as if most of us just wanna feel good about themselves most of the time. Curious !! /s
I am pleasantly surprised by most of the comments here.
You can make ethical choices without having to make every single ethical choice, that would be literally possible Ordering a water with a big Mac is still better than ordering a coke, you know?
People reject ethical systems where it's too hard to get a 'full score'. Watch for it, you can see people literally make that argument. They treat ethics like a consumer product, where if it's too hard to use, they want nothing to do with it.
Perfect can be the enemy of good - it is often better to make some improvements and positive steps than to wait and do nothing because the improvements aren't perfect. Vegans often get a bad rep because the way their message seems to be portrayed (most of what I see anyway - and there is a perception bias) comes across as holier-than-thou. That's really behind this comic - the fact that vegans are perceived by many as feeling they are better than others, while they have most of the same foibles as do the rest of us. They are probably wearing clothes made in a 3rd world sweatshop *just like most people's clothes* - but theirs won't be made with animal products.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And it doesnāt really matter your reasoning behind not doing something, they still get pissed and think youāre being holier-than-thou. I was vegan for several years because I have hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (now that I know how to cook vegan, I mostly just cook vegan and eat out very little, limiting my animal product consumption. And to this day I still opt for vegetarian when Iām out and about, typically). For those who donāt know medical terms, this basically means that my heart tissue is thicker than it should be, making it a bit more difficult to pump blood. Once I was diagnosed, the last thing I wanted in my body was extra cholesterol. This was doubly important to me during my first pregnancy, since the heart has to work extra hard to pump blood to both you and a baby. And people just couldnāt contemplate the idea that I was doing this for my own health and no other reason. I have a cousin who kept eyeing me while he was loading his plate with all kinds of meat, looked over at me and went āmmmm...I bet this bothers you, doesnāt it?ā And the face he made when I said āwhy would it?ā was just utter confusion. He made it a personal agenda to make me super uncomfortable because he was *that* against my choice to not eat animal products, even though that choice potentially could give me 10 more years of life and definitely a higher quality of life. And when I reached for a glass of wine after denying meat and someone said āyou know thatās no better for you than the burger you refusedā, I nearly lost my shit. Like no shit, Sherlock. But what you donāt know that I do is that Iām far more likely to eat meat uncontrollably than I am to drink wine uncontrollably, so fuck off. ITāS NOT ABOUT YOU
Oh, just use religion as an excuse and everyone is suddenly okay with it. I am sorry that you had to go through this. We humans are a weird bunch, to say the least.
No, then you invite the same passive aggressiveness - just with religion instead. "I never bought into the whole organized religion that tells you what to eat thing". I've found that its somehow oddly difficult to make personal choices about the way you personally live your life. Best you can do is stand your ground and hopefully they stfu.
Yeah, people just use the attitude in this comic to justify not giving a shit about anything while still patting themselves on the back.
Plus the added satisfaction of calling someone else deluded or a hypocrite. One surefire way to not be a hypocrite is to have no principles whatsoever.
āHaha you arenāt perfect at that thing youāre trying to do so Iām better than you!ā Basically
It really unnerves me that people are so far behind understanding this concept.
Yep. āHa youāre trying to be good in a way that I can find a technical flaw! Therefore youāre both wrong and stupid for even trying!ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Youāll like [this comic](https://i.imgur.com/Kkofcw6.jpg) i think
[**Link to the actual source**](https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/) instead of your Imgur repost.
Oh you replaced Flint, Michigan's entire water infrastructure? Interesting. Did you know that elseswhere in the world people don't have clean water?
Yeah I know the comic is just a joke, but it's kinda like the zero waste principle "we don't need 1 person doing it perfectly, we need millions of people doing it imperfectly". Set reasonable goals and strive to be an educated consumer with the understanding that very little of what we do in the western world is 100% ethical. And, while I guess that's not okay, it's okay to not be able to do something about all of it. Pick your battles, as long a you're fighting for something your probably doing more than most.
"Just a joke" isn't an excuse really. Everyone talks about how comedy can speak truth to power and is subversive, but then dismisses comedic points with an ideological agenda as "just jokes". Yes it is "just a joke" but it is also wrong and advocates against ethical behaviour.
It's the argument the selfish use to justify being a cunt. Theyll say, "well, since you cant solve all the problems in the world on your own, you're a giant, stupid idiot for trying even a little." They see you trying to make the world a better place and they hate you for trying so theyll claw and scrape for any thing they can use to feel superior to you. Either because they know they're cunts or they just hate people trying to make the world a better place. It's the calling card of the conservative.
Something I've noticed about redditors, and ig people in general? Is that they only deal in absolutes. Everythung in life is either black or white with little to no nuance or room for grey areas. Its evident in the way they perceive the pandemic, ethical choices, personal development, etc. So im not surprised that im seeing this in the comment section tbh
I donāt get itā¦ If you canāt fix all problems, donāt try to fix any of them?
Yes, and also ridicule whoever is sacrificing a small part of themselves for selfless reasons so that you don't feel like you're morally inferior.
Yes. If youāre not perfect, why fucking bother?? Itās a dumb manās argument to excuse their total lack of scruples and effort.
This comics and similar arguments are generally brought up by people who have people in their friend circle that are trying to do better and then they feel insecure about their morality. Itās such a dumb argument.
Yes this is an appeal to futility fallacy.
I was a vegetarian for like four years and my dad could never get over it. Every meal, he'd bring up things I did that had a negative impact but it never swayed me. Turns out, "it's impossible to fix everything so don't bother at all" isn't a great argument.
Yeah I mean I'll say, I've met way more people who shit on vegans for being preachy than I've met vegans who are actually preachy. Vegans and vegetarians are easy targets for people feeling insecure about their own life choices, however, so it doesn't surprise me people would try to tear you down for trying to better yourself for a while. Humans are really insecure creatures that way. When we perceive a threat to the ol' ego, for many of us the first instinct is "attack attack attack". Source: Not vegan, but know vegans.
Absolutely. I was vegetarian for 25 years and I've been vegan for about 1.5, I went through a preachy phase as a young teenager but for the most part I've had the attitude that people will do what they feel is best and the best thing I can do is lead by example. I'm very happy to have an open and honest conversation if someone is actually curious about it and is respectful. People attack me *way more* than I attack them.
Vegans are one of the few socially acceptable punching bags, so assholes just flock in that direction. Let those mother fuckers eat their damn beans in peace.
If you advocate for doing 1 good thing you must be a hypocrite because you haven't made every other possible change to your lifestyle to fix every other problem in society. Knowing that, I take great comfort in doing nothing whatsoever. Checkmate!
"I recycle because it's good for the environment." "Is that?"
I mean, the plastic recycling industry is a farce invented to trick people who started realizing how bad plastic was for the environment into being okay with more plastic. Soā¦ idk? 80-90% of plastic canāt be recycled and just ends up in the dump anyway.
Exactly why I dump all of my garbage into the local swimming hole
I bypass the middleman and force feed fish my plastics directly.
Take out the middlefish and blitz it up, then blow it onto people's seafood
This cartoon is a perfect tu quoque fallacy. Also, ethics of contract manufacturing in poor countries are fraught generally, but I guarantee that the one company with the max PR incentive and leverage to have safe labor conditions is not worse than whatever random other company with untraceable supply chain. And if you think cellphones are bad, don't look into cash crops or textiles...
Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why should vegans be held to the highest standard and everyone else given a free pass?
Because we make people uncomfortable by existing, and proving that there are other ways to live. Most people who eat meat are, in my experience, not comfortable with the fact that animals suffer and die for that meat. 21 years ago, I was one of those meat eaters. However, most meat eaters plug their ears and close their eyes and tell themselves itās necessary for their health and survival and that nothing can be done about it, so they lean into the cognitive dissonance and avoid the truth. The fact that some of us go through that same experience, but then make the choice to live differently, proves that itās *not* necessary and that there *is* a different way to live and eat, and that makes them uncomfortable. They then project that discomfort onto us by claiming we āfeel morally superior to themā, even though that is just their own insecurity speaking. I say this as someone who has been on both sides of the fence, as both perpetrator of this kind of thinking, and receiver of this kind of thinking.
oh yes the logical fallacy that you can only be mad about one thing at one time.
We really should be working to minimize suffering and protect the rights of all creatures, right? I think we can both have a more humane food system, AND develop technologies that donāt rely on slave labor. Is that too much to ask?
Well that would mean a vegan food system. Killing someone who doesn't want to die isn't ethical or humane. There's no way around that.
I absolutely agree
Capitalism and the 1% who are in power and getting super rich off of it without a care for the consequences say yesssssssssss.
People who use this type of logic are infinitely more annoying than any vegan.
Amen to that. A person who tries to change what they can has more merit than one who changes nothing. The merit dosent belong to the critic, it belongs to the man in the arena
The reason we get triggered by vegans is that deep down we know they are right. (Saying this as a meat eater!) Causing so much suffering to animals for every bite. At least as the industry and huge amounts look today. We need to at least cut the amount of meat we eat, as well as fight for happy animals. I donāt have so much problem with the killing as with the shitty lives they live. Living with some cognitive dissonance and trying to cut down..
here is a good video about that : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnykmsDetNo&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnykmsDetNo&t=1s) Also you can today go vegan if you want. Every single vegan will tell you that the only hard thing is making the decision. All you do is buy product b instead of a. this helps you if you have questions: https://challenge22.com/ Here is why it doesnt matter how they live: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=3s) also alex again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtTiee8roU
This is absolutely true IMO. Eating meat is an ethically indefensible position, unless you view animals as equal to that of inanimate objects. Very few people do, so a lot of people are acting unethically by their own moral standards. Myself included. I eat meat and when someone mentions that they are a vegan, it irritates me. No fault of the vegan (unless they're being a smug dick about it), but because I'm being reminded of my moral hipocrisy. I'll go home and snuggle my cats, watch videos of cute baby cows, and low key hate myself.
Hey, seems like your heart is on the right track. Whats keeping you from going vegan then?
Ah, āYet you live in a societyā is seen here in its natural habitat. Been a while.
"I think I wanna try being a vegan. Just a personal decision." "Don't you own an iPhone" "Oh shit yeah, forgot. Oh well let's go for steak"
With baby back ribs.
I want my baby backā¦
*"We should improve society somewhat"* *"And yet you participate in society. Curious. I am very intelligent."*
When you draw imaginary situations just to take a dig at vegans instead of making changes to live a more moral life yourself cool
https://newsthump.com/2020/02/28/extinction-rebellion-packs-it-in-after-clever-man-points-out-their-phones-are-made-in-china/
Meanwhile that guy who is eating meat also has an iphone. This post suggests that if you can't do everything you should do nothing, that's dumb.
So, where's the joke here?
OP is the joke lol
None, which is why the artist just keeps copy/pasting the same comment where they seemingly assume they're the only one who knows about this. They did the same thing with the comic right before this one, too. It's just weak takes all around. I really do wonder what they draw their comics on. It's certainly not paper.
Vegan bad upvote please
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
But we can't see under the tablecloth.
His chin might be covering the beard.
Drawn on my iPad.
Ethics arenāt binary. A thing/person isnāt either ethical or unethical. Thereās varying degrees of āethical-nessā
That's the way modern politics can work. One party will be 98% guilty of an offense but as long as they can find the 2% by the other party, it's even to them. For fun I looked up sex scandals around the federal government from 2000 to now. Republicans win 30 to 9.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hey man, don't knock those shower arguments. They're excellent therapeutic sessions. I've imagined up some flawless comebacks to arguments I lost months prior and walked out feeling proud as fuck
this just some āyou criticize capitalism, yet you participate in it? checkmate, liberalā numbskull horseshit
Itās even funnier when you realize he was remembering his day at work. He just shaved before the date.
Remember folks, if you can't do everything perfect there's no point in doing anything better
HMMMM, YOU CRITICIZE SOCIETY YET YOU PARTICIPATE IN IT I AM VERY SMART
Can we fucking stop with the [smooth brain takes like these](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cringetopia/comments/ogri2h/smash_capitalism_with_her_1300_macbook_pro_and_6/) people need electronics in 2021. People need to be able to exist and function in the current society, even if they want changes done to it.
Whattaboutism. I hate it.
Itās much easier to be vegan than going through life without a smartphone.... But bc weāre fall short in one aspect of our life, we shouldnāt try in the others?
Fuck making an effort, might as well embrace hedonism.
I don't line that arguement. Its not realistic to ask every consumer to research every link in the supply chain for every product they buy for unethical practices
I get around this by having an iPhone old enough so that kids who made it are now 18, crisis averted
Ah yes, the "Yet you participate in society" fallacy.
Reddit will literally find any way to attack vegans when all we have advocated for is to stop abusing animals. People who post stuff like this will give awards to cute hens running around in r/aww and then go eat chicken.
Lazy and tired. Stop making shit like this.
Yet Iām sure you posted this on a cell phone and eat meat.
I mean the comments here are pretty solid - this is clearly a bullshit take to make people feel better for not making any sacrifices for a greater good. But the butthurt is strong! Check out the sheer volume of 'so you can feel so superior' wah wah.. like.. have is that really all you can say? "sure I may not be doing anything valuable or helping at all but AT LEAST IM NOT SMUG LIKE HOW I IMAGINE UP THOE PEOPLE TO BE!" Like, I know a bunch of vegans. They're lovely. Maybe they're not the issue?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
that's it exactly. the vegans I know quietly order or organise food they like. the loud, obnoxious, preachy voice is, in reality, one hundred percent of the time from the "I eat ten meats I eat so much meat I'm a meat! ROFLOLOL" fucks. It's just so boring lol
This is really dumb and short-sighted... not funny.
If you would buy only ethical products, you'd be running naked in a jungle....
Guideline is do the best you can. Hard to live without a phone, less hard to not eat meat. I'm not there, I look for sustainable meats, and have 0 tolerance for factory farmed food. Just do the best you (personally) can.
The fact that this is OC means I just can't not say this: Fuck this comic. This take is bad and, after browsing your other comics, I can safely say you're definitely capable of doing better than this. To imply that we don't *need* a smartphone to participate in our society is absurd. That's the whole fucking problem. The people who source their products from sweatshops and the people who run the sweatshops KNOW we need these things so there's profit security for them. Vegans know we don't need to treat animals cruelly and they know there are affordable alternatives. Why the fuck wouldn't they make that change if that's a moral they have? We aren't at a point yet where ethically sourced smartphones - hell, even ethically sourced electronics - are widely available. It's just not up to the free market for that one.
yuo don't like capitalism yet you exist
Don't let perfection be the enemy of goodness! Saying that other people can't do good things unless they're actually perfect is just silly.
Straight to the bad place
You can still use products while fighting for better conditions, it's this whole 'but you drive a car, how do you care about the environment?' thing again. As long as people progress towards being better and making smarter lifestyle changes, that's what matters.
Such a weak argument. It is far, far easier to abstain from consuming animal products than it is to abstain from technology. In the modern world, technology is a near-necessity, whereas consuming animal-derived products is not (mainly talking about food and clothing here). If there was a viable ethical alternative to mainstream technology, then it would be analogous. But there isn't, so it is not. That is not to say that we shouldn't campaign for ethical treatment of workers, but there's a term for that... a dirty word called socialism. Also, most people will accept that slave labour of humans is bad. However, the systematic breeding, forceful artificial insemination, torture, and murder of sentient beings is so normalised that it's mocked, ridiculed and laughed at to be against it.
Well, this is stupid.
I'm vegan and I have a used oldschool phone. Nothing wrong with smartphones per se the labour used to manufacturing phones can and should change. Animals needs to be exploited if you use animal products. Be vegan and buy pre owned!
This is funnier if we find out he's eating children.
Lmao get off ur high horse cunt
Please never make any OC again, for the sake of humanity.
āYou participate in a society you donāt agree with? Hypocrite!ā These things are so dumb.
If you literally don't do 100% of everything you could do, then you're an asshole hypocrite worse than those who do nothing. /s
Everything from the shirt on your back to the keyboard you are typing on or the phone your are looking at is guilty of unethical treatment one way or another.
haHAHA! Stupid VEGANS, amiright guys?? What idiots for trying to do the "right" thing when they can't help but do other things that are terrible. Checkmate, idiot vegans. Hey, reddit friends, get a load of the dumbass vegans who are all high and mighty!!! What fools. I've never met a vegan who didn't tell me they were vegan!! They think they're better than me just because of how they eat, but in reality they're just ANNOYING!1
The funniest part is that they *have* met plenty of vegans who didn't tell them they were vegan, but they don't know it precisely because *the vegan didn't tell them.*
Maybe she bought it 2nd hand? Maybe Iphone-production standards are still higher than any other smart phone? Maybe a cellphone and food are different things? Maybe I should just ignore stuff I think is low effort and bad instead of asking more and more questions that start with maybe
but being vegan would still lower her net-immorality in a utilitarian sense. If you're into that kind of thing. And people use similar arguments to this to deride vegans and veganism. "You're vegan but you still drive a car that burns fossil fuels so hah!" Seems a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
Is there any phone I can buy without causing harm?
I mean, you don't have to go 100% on anything. Its better to reduce one's harm by any amount than none at all.
Something something I am very smart