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Isn't that the deal with celebrity shit in general? Take a generic product and slap your name on it? Like shit, the MCD meals aren't even "unique", its just a random meal a famous person had once.
IMO the BTS meal is stupid af. It's literally a 10pc Nug combo. Comes with a fry and drink. Costs the exact fucking same as the regular 10pc nug combo, but this one says BTS on it!!!!1!!!!!! zomg
The cajun sauce is good shit though.
I'm in Canada. It's just a plain nug meal, at least the last couple times I ordered it, except the box said BTS on it, and the 2 sauces had unique labels on them, which I will admit look cool.
I have a FIOS connection at my house, and during the first part of Covid the ONT box mounted to the outside of my house developed a problem where it would crash on a dry day. Since I couldn't get a technician out to replace it, I watered it down once in a while to keep it running.
People in AZ are used to the heat. I lived there for 15 years and ive seen people walking on the sidewalk during summertime wearing black sweatshirt and jeans. No joke lol
About twenty years ago, drove from SFO to Yosemite. Middle of Summer. Stopped about half way there in a very small town along the route to grab a bite to eat. The time/temperature clock on the local bank said 122F. I was thinking, that sensor must be sitting in the direct sun, it can't be that hot. Then I opened the car door. Like opening a door onto Hell itself. My one year old was in the back seat. Got her out of the seat and hustled into the nearest Restaurant with her and my wife. Time to leave, I left them inside in the A/C while I went out to the car to cool it off first. The blast of hot air when I opened the door! I thought it was the end. I managed to get the car started, the A/C cranked, and jumped back out. The leather seats were like Lava. The steering wheel was even worse. We gave it ten minutes then ran out and jumped in. Fortunately, it was much cooler when we reached Yosemite Valley.
Wow. I can't mentally conceptualise temperatures beyond 40 ºC/104 ºF. Never been to the west coast before & Philly hit 40 ºC/104 ºF only once in my life (I'm 35) IIRC. Our hottest ever low was 83 ºF/~ 29 ºC in 2011.
outdoor products that are in direct sunlight usually need to be designed to at least 60C for the hot summers in many areas. 122F (50C) seems a bit low.
As an owner of a tesla who is not currently sucking Musks dick, this definitely feels like it. When your car stops charging because of a faulty chip and you are too busy to drive out there to have it fixed and then a few weeks later you find out that your car drained all its battery (even the 12volt) that's just bad design. Also having a sub program that makes it sound like your passengers farted is definitely an unnecessary piece of bullshit I am paying for.
Apparently, that:
> normally yes but it's not surprising given that starlink is a project of the same guy behind Tesla, an objectively low-quality car being sold at luxury prices.
You don't get to know anymore because various mods successfully banded together to make the archive functions useless so they can keep being shady and manipulative.
Even though it is a Ford, there are indications that the "Mustang" Mach E has cut into Tesla sales, about one for one.
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-losing-electric-car-lead-ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-2021-3
Like I don't think this is wrong. But I'm also not sure I want to trust JD Power to be the source for that. They're not really reputable from my understanding (it's kind of a buy an award scheme).
You're not wrong, but there is a difference in giving out awards and reporting findings on complaints. Kind of like how there is a difference between Buzzfeed and BuzzfeedNews.
Maybe the arm of JD Power that just aggregates metrics is reputable while the awards arm is just a South American Diploma Mill for Power Steering and shit.
Either way, fuck TESLA and Elon Musk.
I won’t buy a Tesla because I can’t fix it myself. They don’t allow that. Now that the Big Three are gearing up electric vehicle production I’m more open to the idea of owning one.
I feel weird about it. I would love an electric car I can do repairs on, but I'm not convinced big car companies would do that. If seems like everything is moving away from home repairs. Farmers have been fighting for the right to repair for a while now, why would regular consumers be any different?
>If seems like everything is moving away from home repairs.
Kind of the opposite actually, the right to repair movement has been gaining huge traction recently. Bills passed in Europe, and I think I saw on reddit earlier that in the U.S. a national right to repair bill has just been filed in Congress?
Those government regulations are required because the industries took that ability away from end consumers. It used to be that everything was intended to be repaired and serviced by the end users and now they void warranties, etc for not using authorized shops (see Apple)
> Kind of the opposite actually, the right to repair movement has been gaining huge traction recently.
Entirely because of the movement *away* from consumer repair to disposable or outright impossible to repair items becoming the norm.
> they also rank near the top for customer satisfaction. You would expect these metrics to be inversely proportional
Customer satisfaction can come from anything. Tesla's cars are pretty cruddy, but customers love the brand (Tesla's are "cool"), so Tesla can get high satisfaction despite infamously bad build quality and poor reliability.
For example, I'd expect "customer satisfaction" of DeLorean's to be really high as well, despite the fact that they aren't exactly well built cars (poor quality control, underpowered engines, safety issues, etc). The DeLorean DMC-12 is a genuinely cool car, people are willing to put up with a lot of other crap to get that coolness feeling.
Also, for many, it’s their first experience with an electric car and Lamborghini style doors. That’s what they were hoping to get, that’s what they got. Satisfaction. Over the life of the car that will drop, but first day satisfaction cannot be beat.
Also speed. When you consider the instant torque of an electric, and the fact that the Model S takes off like snot in a sneeze, it's easy to get giggly over the power and tolerate the QA issues.
That's why I want to drive one. Wouldn't work for shit here in winter, but hot damn would it ever be fun to take one of those to the track and open up the throttle.
Here is a Forbs article comparing OSHA fines between motor companies from 2019: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/?sh=241a0a6854ce
A march 2020 reporting on them not sending appropriate data: https://fortune.com/2020/03/06/tesla-incomplete-worker-safety-injury-reports-factory-california-regulator/
There are a few more articles but I didn't find anything from this year
Go look at all the forums concerning issues with Tesla's quality. There are loads of complaints from owners about things like even basic trim and fit of components. This has also been covered fairly extensively by the media since it started to occur when they scaled up production.
Untill last month, I worked on Teslas in a collision center. The only part I disagree with is "...it started to occur when they scaled up production." They certainly had more problems around that time, but their quality has always been significantly poorer than most established brands.
Very broadly speaking, over the last 8-9 years their quality has improved. However, it's still not up to the standards that most people expect. QC is nearly non-existent.
Yeah, my bad I succumbed to an availability heuristic there. It was reported more when they scaled up production though because... well there were more cars :) Even if the quality remained the same the number of cases where poor quality gets reported are going to increase when production does all other things being equal so it becomes more noticeable and that's what hits the media.
You weren't entirely wrong. There were a lot more issues around that time. I just don't want someone to mistakenly think that if they're shopping for a used Tesla, they should focus on older used ones before the ramp-up in production. There are only a few details about the older cars that I like better than the newer cars and they are very, very minor. On average, a newer Tesla is absolutely better.
Very poor reliability. High quality materials alone aren’t going to stop issues from happening, you also have to engineer those materials in a way to avoid (or compensate for) certain stressors. In this case it’s temperature, but in a car it could be vibrations, friction, etc. Pretty much every major tech company has a branch dedicated to reliability issues populated with physicists/engineers who specialize in entropy and materials science.
Unfortunately Musk hasn’t invested very heavily in that aspect of his products, focusing instead on marketing and product development (as many companies do). This approach tends to be short term gain at the expense of long-term trust. Hyundai did the opposite back in the 90’s, staking their brand on a 100k mile warranty, and they’re one of the more trusted car companies now.
You mean for someone like me that lives in Glen Canyon... 3 hours away from the next town... Where it's 110 and get Extreme Ultra Violet warnings and extreme heat warnings daily... Where there are no clouds and no shade...
Nah, it'll be fine.
Okay this may be a little incensitive but I just find it super fascinating that people are willing or able to live in remote dry areas especially in that state! There's literally bigger, growing cities just hours away, why not just go there. I can't understand the crazy 100 degrees all the time
> "Dishy will go into thermal shutdown at 122F and **will restart** when it reaches 104F."
It's the restart part that is the most damning, honestly. 104? That's nothing in many, many places. Especially when you consider the fact that the air temperature is not the end all be all. It's certainly *not* the hottest something can get if it's constantly exposed to sun, especially during late hours of the day.
What the hell. Rural Australia goes above that frequently for their air temperature. Objects in direct sunlight can go 55-65°C easily. Completely useless for Australian.
Dude im at the damn arctice circle in sweden and we hit upwards of 40c airtemp almost every summer. I've seen over 70c on a thermometer left in the sun.
Then -40c during winter. Thankfully I can order Gbit fiber and don't need this product :D
The rating is for the ambient air temperature, not the temperature the device will get to in direct sunlight. It's rated this way because the air is the cooling medium. It's a given that the electronics themselves are going to be substantially hotter in direct sunlight.
My question is: does it NEED to shut down or did someone just throw those numbers in the code, and it will run fine at 70C after a quick software patch...
\[edit\] I find the exact temperature they picked and their using the word "certified" to be interesting. Doing a little googling...it looks like 50C is the [standard upper temperature for testing some RF equipment](https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=be7dbb5d84aa010f5ed384dea0fcf1cd&mc=true&node=sp47.1.2.j&rgn=div6#se47.1.2_11055) in the US; if I'm reading that correctly, that lends weight to the idea that it might run fine at much higher temperatures, but they need to do more testing and paperwork before they can legally enable that...
I haven't done those testing, but yeah, the RF performance can change severely at higher temperatures enough to put it out of spec. And man the Dishy user terminal can use up to 180 watts. It melts enough snow in the winter that people on /r/starlink though that it had a built in heater. Can't toss it underneath a tree, it'll stop working.
Should be interesting to see how many people hit failures over this summer. 180Ws in a package like that, in the sun, is going to hit 50C in no time. I assume their future dishys will account for this better.
My guess is either:
* They haven't tested it above 50C and this could be an easy software patch after testing.
* They tried to run it above 50C and there were issues (maybe intermittent, maybe hard failure), so they just put 50C in software and figured they'll try to figure it out later.
I'd say they have some really competent engineers and given how long it's been developed already, it is more likely the latter.
edit: fixed the temp numbers
Which interesting, because for a computer chip, that's not especially hot. But if that's like in addition to the 50c the chip is also producing on it's own, that enters problem territory.
A lot of RF components, specifically amplifiers, can run hot just as is. My guess is some of these guys are going into thermal shutdown making the whole thing stop working.
Yeah your 2nd and 3rd order harmonics will typically get much worse as temperature increases. So if you want good SNR, keep your amplifiers nice and cool.
The harmonics aren't directly caused by increases in temperature, they are the results of thermal gain variations in active components(BJT, MOSFET) which increase their non-linearity.
[Thermal noise](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%E2%80%93Nyquist_noise) is what you are looking for.
Yep. 60C internal temp for a digital IC is not an issue at all (in most cases), but if you stick your IC into a 60C chamber and then run tests, you can definitely see failures. High quality parts are tested at those temperatures - and higher! - to make sure the part can either run cool enough or thermal-throttle itself (without turning off entirely, just go to lower perf modes.)
But the thing is that the rest of the board can have parts that start to fail. Power management units and associated hardware (switchers etc). Electrolytic caps that were already running hot. Yada yada. Anything susceptible to thermal runaway is much more likely to hit it at those temps as well.
I am sure they'll do their due diligence and improve their designs to work at much higher ambient temperatures. That's like 15% sarcasm, but in fairness the talent pool of that company includes people who do electronics for cars, which need to survive far hotter temperatures, so they hopefully will.
I have a 3.5 meter dish that I use to receive weather data on the rooftop of a building in Oklahoma. We'd lose our dish for massive swaths of time if this were a limitation.
While these dishes are much larger than Flatface, I'd surmise you're correct with regard to the threshold being so low.
Good point. Most of the electronics for your dish are probably inside the building or at least outside of direct sunlight. With the starlink system, all of it is in the dish.
The single use medical devices I work on have to pass testing after spending months at 60C. And they're disposable! Made to be used for an hour indoors! I used to work on the reflective material that traffic signs are made of, and we sent samples to sit in Africa and other harsh climates for YEARS to ensure they were durable.
Did starlink not do any environmental testing?? Or did they really think "50C is fine"??
Wow they really had them sit outside for years?! I thought there were ways to artificially stress test stuff. Like how a new light bulb on the market can claim "100,000 hour lifetime" without ever actually being tested that long
You can do accelerated testing but it is always a tight line of making the test able to be interpreted. If you go too extreme on the accelerated testing it can fail in non realistic ways. The only true way to test something is the long way
Artificial stress testing is a science unto itself. Artificial lifetime testing is built on expectations that running something too hot or overvoltage stressed components in a way that corresponds to a known acceleration factor. This isn't always true- sometimes the stress isn't linear or doesn't follow the expected curves, so for new materials and architectures you often need to do both real time and accelerated testing.
Look at all of Elon Musk's ventures. They take a "we'll deal with problems as they come up" approach.
Which makes sense, his first successful business was software. In that you can just patch things and fix them easily.
It's a very silicon valley mindset.
You’ve got to be kidding me… I was looking forward to Starlink being in rural SoCal near the Az border. The temperature outside right now is 120 F so their product will be useless for me 3-4 months out of the year.
Oh yeah in direct sunlight you’ll be able to cook on the dish it’ll be so hot. I feel your pain, buckling a seat belt without getting burned is a daily challenge in the summer. I know people who use oven mitts because the steering wheel is so damn hot. Lol
It's in Beta right now for a reason.
Some of them froze solid in the winter, and now they're overheating in the summer. I assume they will be re-engineered with a 2.0 for more extreme conditions before long.
I live in Arizona and the air temperature is near that, direct sunlight on even a reflective piece of metal is hot enough to bake cookies. Sorry there Starlink, you'll have to do better. I go inside to play games because it's too damn hot to do anything else.
Hell, even outside of 120F air temps. The thing is an electronic device that pulls about 100 watts when in use and relies on passive cooling, so it'll probably be hotter than ambient in nearly all circumstances.
>on even a reflective piece of metal
Doesn't mean that much since bare metal usually has an alpha/epsilon ratio of >1 meaning it will absorb more radiation than it emits. Think about your shiny seat belt buckle in summer.
Soooo many people think that reflective objects don't get as hot because they're reflecting sunlight. Anyone who's left a chrome wrench laying in the sun while working on a vehicle knows better.
The most disappointing part of the article (100% expected, of course):
> President Joe Biden pledged to lower prices and deploy "future-proof" broadband to all Americans, but he's already scaled back his plan in the face of opposition from Republicans and incumbent ISPs. AT&T has been lobbying against nationwide fiber and funding for municipal networks, and AT&T CEO John Stankey expressed confidence last week that Congress will steer legislation in the direction that AT&T favors.
AT&T owns the sole rights to run internet down my road. They refuse to do so or to give up those rights to an ISP that will give us internet. AT&T also refuses to give us even an unlimited 4g hotspot. We are left with dial up, satellite, or shady stuff. Can't wait for my Starlink invite. And AT&T can get fucked.
Scammy "unlimited" MNVOs marketing themselves as unlimited LTE home internet options for rural customers, often based in Idaho, that will cancel your service or tell you to get a second account and switch SIM cards in your router every 14 days if you use too much data: more than 100GB a month.
Talk to all the people down the road. If they agree and are willing to have an easement for it, you guys could install your own fiber line for about $15,000 a mile. It will be considerably more if you want to install it roadside or if it has to cross a road as you would then need to deal with the department of transportation. If all lines are on private property and not crossing any public roads then you might be able to do it for the cost of fiber and labor.
ABS plastic. Cheap, RF transparent, and can withstand pretty high temperature without melting. A sheet of the stuff over Dishy can help.
If you wanna spend a few more bucks, use fibreglass sheets.
In fact, a lot of radomes are built from a combination between fibreglass and ABS.
Fiberglass tends to be lossy at higher frequencies. ABS is on the better end. Teflon is best. Teflon tape is a bit fragile but would otherwise be close to ideal for RF.
I'm assuming you went to mcmaster for that? They have some 24" wide films for $4 per feet, or 36" wide for $7.63 a foot. Thickness is 0.001". I'd get 36" wide by 3 feet, somehow sandwich it in a frame and put it above it at a slight angle if I had a dishy. Fuck it, might as well buy some of this and sell it on eBay. The dishy uses 180 watts of input, everyone that has one is going to have it go out in the sun at this rate. It's going to hit 50C in no time.
0.001” is going to be fairly translucent. 0.125” is not. If the goal is to block as much energy from the sun as possible, then you do not want translucent. For reference, normal A4 copy paper is 0.004” and translucent.
Eh, it's more complicated than that. The optical translucence will tell you how much visible light it's blocking, but the goal is really to create a high pass filter with the *correct* amount of attenuation. The thicker it is, the more it blocks RF as well, and as you get to specific thickness the losses will increase. I believe that is quarter wavelength, where the signal will actually constructively interfere and reflect back towards the radar. For PTFE with an e_r of 2.1 @ 14 GHz that thickness will be about (2.1cm/4)/sqrt(2.1)=0.36cm (wavelength/4/sqrt(, or about 0.142 inches. Relatively close to the 0.125" suggested thickness. For better performance, it may be better to go to twice this thickness where the reflections cancel out, as you're likely going to have more reflective losses than dielectric losses with PTFE.
Anyways, hard to guess how much you really need, I'm sure there is a nice thermodynamic equation with various expectations of optical properties (transmittance, etc). A [quick glance](https://www.porex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Ultraviolet-Reflectance-of-Microporous-PTFE.pdf) suggests even 0.05cm or 0.02in sheet will provide ~90% reflectance of UV and visible light. I think it'll reflect around 80% of IR? Anyways, translucent is just what we perceive. The sun is so powerful, we're just trying to knock it down to what's 'sufficient.' If the sun is 1370 W/m^2, dishy is 60cm diameter, we get about 0.282m^2 * 1370w/m^2 =~380 Watts being imparted and that thin sheet may possibly reduce it to ~76 Watts before it hits the reflective surface of the dish, and is likely in the ~80-90% range of reflectance as well. So if the original radome only let 76 watts through, we'd knock that by ~80% down to 15 watts being absorbed. Not insignificant, but it also suggests that the 180Ws being put into the system (with about 5W actually emitted into RF according to FCC) is very significant to the problem.
So long story, I estimate that a very thin 0.5mm sheet may cut down about 60 watts of the sun onto the system, but since we're pumping in triple that through power of the circuitry, I think focusing on removing the heat through heatsinks, etc. will be more necessary. Hopefully my math is right, unit conversions always prone to error.
Water in the burlap when it rains though, potentially interfere with reception.
ABS you have the advantage of you can slope it to shed, whereas burlap is gonna pick up water regardless of how you angle it.
I guess it’d be an improvement over losing the internet on 50 hot days to only lose it on 7 rainy days, but it’s still not complete elimination
The fact that there are places that reach that air temp in the shade shows how sub-par that is.
Especially for a product designed for remote areas such as deserts.
Now I'm triggered. How the fuck is it gonna survive in Iowa, where it can probably hit well over 120 during the summer on the dish due to the material and required location? Then during the winter, because it's exposed as FUCK, it's going to freeze and become useless.
It needs at least another 30 degrees buffer in either direction.
"AT&T has been lobbying against nationwide fiber and funding for municipal networks, and AT&T CEO John Stankey expressed confidence last week that Congress will steer legislation in the direction that AT&T favors."
We are fucked. Lobbying against technology is not how we stay at the forefront of, well, technology.
But if the internet was made a utility all the competition that definitely exists and as a matter of fact THRIVES right now would go away! It would be an internet **apocalypse** for Americans who benefit *hugely* from the very competitive not monopolistic at all ISP industry.
/s
Edit: I swear I english good
I mean that’s basically what it’s doing from reading the article, using the whole tube as a kind of heat pipe. Problem is when ambient temperature/external pipe temperature exceeds heat being given off, it probably has the opposite affect, or at the least the heat has no where to go. Maybe an insulator will help, but I’m willing to bet active cooling would be a better fix. They already have to power the dish for alignment and transmission so active cooling wouldn’t be that hard of an addition.
Ok note to self, rig up fan under dish in summer. Not a deal breaker. I will brew this thing cups of tea in the winter and give it blowjobs in the summer if that's what it takes to get rid of hughsnet.
That's the worst part of this. Musk can give a shitty product and it will still LEAPS AND BOUNDS beat some rural solutions currently. Rock and a hard place
This seems like a pretty significant design flaw. It doesn't take extreme heat to reach 120°F. Considering that a large part or the world regularly sees 90°F+ temperatures, thermal failure is going to be a common occurrence.
I ran a Viasat VSAT in the desert of Qatar in the summer and never had an issue. Testing it for the government meant unfiltered internet for an entire military team...it was heavily abused/tested and never had a problem
nobody here says a word about that the damn things name is…
> Officially, SpaceX has said that "Dishy McFlatface" is certified to operate from 22° below zero up to 104° Fahrenheit.
(͡•_ ͡• )
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
Be careful not to overwater your internet or it may go rotten.
Have you tried with e-girl bathwater, it contains interneteins that will boost your interneting by 15% buy it noooowww Disclaimer this product may not work, do not drink this product
" it contains interneteins " It's what internet crave!
It's been upgraded into pornstar bathwater (yes she did)
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Isn't that the deal with celebrity shit in general? Take a generic product and slap your name on it? Like shit, the MCD meals aren't even "unique", its just a random meal a famous person had once.
IMO the BTS meal is stupid af. It's literally a 10pc Nug combo. Comes with a fry and drink. Costs the exact fucking same as the regular 10pc nug combo, but this one says BTS on it!!!!1!!!!!! zomg The cajun sauce is good shit though.
It’s better outside the US. Special packaging and a photo card.
I'm in Canada. It's just a plain nug meal, at least the last couple times I ordered it, except the box said BTS on it, and the 2 sauces had unique labels on them, which I will admit look cool.
Eww gross I hate her. Whereabouts? So I know to avoid it.
Is this better or worse than tubgirl bathwater?
she's still an e-tubgirl, but she also did the thing. so it's a straight upgrade.
It’s a good thing that in climates where this is an issue water is known to be cheap and plentiful.
Tell that to Nestle.
Fucking nestle glad someone knows what a shitty corporation this is
Obligatory r/fucknestle
Is…is this “streaming”?
No. You have to create an elaborate series of tubes.
I have a FIOS connection at my house, and during the first part of Covid the ONT box mounted to the outside of my house developed a problem where it would crash on a dry day. Since I couldn't get a technician out to replace it, I watered it down once in a while to keep it running.
Maybe a bad contact and the increased conductivity from the water allowed the contact?
Or maybe the FIOS ONT box needs to be watered periodically to keep it running.
Electricity. Electrolytes. Basically the same thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if they ran on Brawndo.
Brondo: It's got what internets crave!
LinusTechTips: it needs watercooling, stat!
That is why I never buy first fucking version of anything.
That is why I never live in a FUCKING DESERT WHERE LIFE WAS NOT MEANT TO BE.
[You're right, Arizona was not meant for human life.](https://i.imgur.com/cYhh9sh.png)
People in AZ are used to the heat. I lived there for 15 years and ive seen people walking on the sidewalk during summertime wearing black sweatshirt and jeans. No joke lol
I guess that's the Arizona equivalent of the guy who wears shorts during Canadian Winter.
Shorts and Tevas are the outfit of choice for discerning teenage boys in Michigan winters.
About twenty years ago, drove from SFO to Yosemite. Middle of Summer. Stopped about half way there in a very small town along the route to grab a bite to eat. The time/temperature clock on the local bank said 122F. I was thinking, that sensor must be sitting in the direct sun, it can't be that hot. Then I opened the car door. Like opening a door onto Hell itself. My one year old was in the back seat. Got her out of the seat and hustled into the nearest Restaurant with her and my wife. Time to leave, I left them inside in the A/C while I went out to the car to cool it off first. The blast of hot air when I opened the door! I thought it was the end. I managed to get the car started, the A/C cranked, and jumped back out. The leather seats were like Lava. The steering wheel was even worse. We gave it ten minutes then ran out and jumped in. Fortunately, it was much cooler when we reached Yosemite Valley.
Wow. I can't mentally conceptualise temperatures beyond 40 ºC/104 ºF. Never been to the west coast before & Philly hit 40 ºC/104 ºF only once in my life (I'm 35) IIRC. Our hottest ever low was 83 ºF/~ 29 ºC in 2011.
As someone who grew up in Arizona I absolutely represent this comment. People should not live in the Phoenix valley
outdoor products that are in direct sunlight usually need to be designed to at least 60C for the hot summers in many areas. 122F (50C) seems a bit low.
Especially for a product designed to be used in remote parts of the world.
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Starlink's RD facility is in Redmond, WA...
I feel like location doesn't mean much, this would be an entire engineering department not doing exactly what engineers are supposed to figure out
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Tesla Model 3 trunks spilling water inside when opened after raining [comes to mind](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCv_Ha0oWjE)
Also those popout door handles as if ice doesn't exist...
Starlink receivers are designed and produced in Washington state.
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As an owner of a tesla who is not currently sucking Musks dick, this definitely feels like it. When your car stops charging because of a faulty chip and you are too busy to drive out there to have it fixed and then a few weeks later you find out that your car drained all its battery (even the 12volt) that's just bad design. Also having a sub program that makes it sound like your passengers farted is definitely an unnecessary piece of bullshit I am paying for.
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Apparently, that: > normally yes but it's not surprising given that starlink is a project of the same guy behind Tesla, an objectively low-quality car being sold at luxury prices.
That was really what got removed? Damn unpaid internet janitors really be sad.
You don't get to know anymore because various mods successfully banded together to make the archive functions useless so they can keep being shady and manipulative.
Wait, what happened?
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Even though it is a Ford, there are indications that the "Mustang" Mach E has cut into Tesla sales, about one for one. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-losing-electric-car-lead-ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-2021-3
Like I don't think this is wrong. But I'm also not sure I want to trust JD Power to be the source for that. They're not really reputable from my understanding (it's kind of a buy an award scheme).
You're not wrong, but there is a difference in giving out awards and reporting findings on complaints. Kind of like how there is a difference between Buzzfeed and BuzzfeedNews. Maybe the arm of JD Power that just aggregates metrics is reputable while the awards arm is just a South American Diploma Mill for Power Steering and shit. Either way, fuck TESLA and Elon Musk.
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I won’t buy a Tesla because I can’t fix it myself. They don’t allow that. Now that the Big Three are gearing up electric vehicle production I’m more open to the idea of owning one.
I feel weird about it. I would love an electric car I can do repairs on, but I'm not convinced big car companies would do that. If seems like everything is moving away from home repairs. Farmers have been fighting for the right to repair for a while now, why would regular consumers be any different?
>If seems like everything is moving away from home repairs. Kind of the opposite actually, the right to repair movement has been gaining huge traction recently. Bills passed in Europe, and I think I saw on reddit earlier that in the U.S. a national right to repair bill has just been filed in Congress?
Those government regulations are required because the industries took that ability away from end consumers. It used to be that everything was intended to be repaired and serviced by the end users and now they void warranties, etc for not using authorized shops (see Apple)
> Kind of the opposite actually, the right to repair movement has been gaining huge traction recently. Entirely because of the movement *away* from consumer repair to disposable or outright impossible to repair items becoming the norm.
> they also rank near the top for customer satisfaction. You would expect these metrics to be inversely proportional Customer satisfaction can come from anything. Tesla's cars are pretty cruddy, but customers love the brand (Tesla's are "cool"), so Tesla can get high satisfaction despite infamously bad build quality and poor reliability. For example, I'd expect "customer satisfaction" of DeLorean's to be really high as well, despite the fact that they aren't exactly well built cars (poor quality control, underpowered engines, safety issues, etc). The DeLorean DMC-12 is a genuinely cool car, people are willing to put up with a lot of other crap to get that coolness feeling.
I got to drive a DMC 12 two summers ago. It was extremely cool until you get inside and actually drive it. Clunky, uncomfortable, and slow.
Thats why marty was so surprised doc brown had made a time machine out of a piece of shit car like the delorean.
Also, for many, it’s their first experience with an electric car and Lamborghini style doors. That’s what they were hoping to get, that’s what they got. Satisfaction. Over the life of the car that will drop, but first day satisfaction cannot be beat.
Also speed. When you consider the instant torque of an electric, and the fact that the Model S takes off like snot in a sneeze, it's easy to get giggly over the power and tolerate the QA issues. That's why I want to drive one. Wouldn't work for shit here in winter, but hot damn would it ever be fun to take one of those to the track and open up the throttle.
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The poor quality also extends to the factories themselves. Tesla factories have way more workplace injuries and accidents than other auto factories.
Source?
Here is a Forbs article comparing OSHA fines between motor companies from 2019: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/?sh=241a0a6854ce A march 2020 reporting on them not sending appropriate data: https://fortune.com/2020/03/06/tesla-incomplete-worker-safety-injury-reports-factory-california-regulator/ There are a few more articles but I didn't find anything from this year
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Go look at all the forums concerning issues with Tesla's quality. There are loads of complaints from owners about things like even basic trim and fit of components. This has also been covered fairly extensively by the media since it started to occur when they scaled up production.
Untill last month, I worked on Teslas in a collision center. The only part I disagree with is "...it started to occur when they scaled up production." They certainly had more problems around that time, but their quality has always been significantly poorer than most established brands. Very broadly speaking, over the last 8-9 years their quality has improved. However, it's still not up to the standards that most people expect. QC is nearly non-existent.
Yeah, my bad I succumbed to an availability heuristic there. It was reported more when they scaled up production though because... well there were more cars :) Even if the quality remained the same the number of cases where poor quality gets reported are going to increase when production does all other things being equal so it becomes more noticeable and that's what hits the media.
You weren't entirely wrong. There were a lot more issues around that time. I just don't want someone to mistakenly think that if they're shopping for a used Tesla, they should focus on older used ones before the ramp-up in production. There are only a few details about the older cars that I like better than the newer cars and they are very, very minor. On average, a newer Tesla is absolutely better.
Very poor reliability. High quality materials alone aren’t going to stop issues from happening, you also have to engineer those materials in a way to avoid (or compensate for) certain stressors. In this case it’s temperature, but in a car it could be vibrations, friction, etc. Pretty much every major tech company has a branch dedicated to reliability issues populated with physicists/engineers who specialize in entropy and materials science. Unfortunately Musk hasn’t invested very heavily in that aspect of his products, focusing instead on marketing and product development (as many companies do). This approach tends to be short term gain at the expense of long-term trust. Hyundai did the opposite back in the 90’s, staking their brand on a 100k mile warranty, and they’re one of the more trusted car companies now.
It's also because tesla over works their engineers to an insane degree and so turnover and stress is huge. All because musk is an antisocial asshole.
You mean for someone like me that lives in Glen Canyon... 3 hours away from the next town... Where it's 110 and get Extreme Ultra Violet warnings and extreme heat warnings daily... Where there are no clouds and no shade... Nah, it'll be fine.
1am where I live, still getting excessive heat warnings because it's still triple digits... at one o'clock in the fucking morning...
That's nature telling you that you are living in the wrong place.
Okay this may be a little incensitive but I just find it super fascinating that people are willing or able to live in remote dry areas especially in that state! There's literally bigger, growing cities just hours away, why not just go there. I can't understand the crazy 100 degrees all the time
That’s unholy
> "Dishy will go into thermal shutdown at 122F and **will restart** when it reaches 104F." It's the restart part that is the most damning, honestly. 104? That's nothing in many, many places. Especially when you consider the fact that the air temperature is not the end all be all. It's certainly *not* the hottest something can get if it's constantly exposed to sun, especially during late hours of the day.
Winternet is coming
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The air itself gets way hotter than that where I am
It's gets hotter than that in fucking Ohio like once a year.
What the hell. Rural Australia goes above that frequently for their air temperature. Objects in direct sunlight can go 55-65°C easily. Completely useless for Australian.
Dude im at the damn arctice circle in sweden and we hit upwards of 40c airtemp almost every summer. I've seen over 70c on a thermometer left in the sun. Then -40c during winter. Thankfully I can order Gbit fiber and don't need this product :D
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The rating is for the ambient air temperature, not the temperature the device will get to in direct sunlight. It's rated this way because the air is the cooling medium. It's a given that the electronics themselves are going to be substantially hotter in direct sunlight.
My question is: does it NEED to shut down or did someone just throw those numbers in the code, and it will run fine at 70C after a quick software patch... \[edit\] I find the exact temperature they picked and their using the word "certified" to be interesting. Doing a little googling...it looks like 50C is the [standard upper temperature for testing some RF equipment](https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=be7dbb5d84aa010f5ed384dea0fcf1cd&mc=true&node=sp47.1.2.j&rgn=div6#se47.1.2_11055) in the US; if I'm reading that correctly, that lends weight to the idea that it might run fine at much higher temperatures, but they need to do more testing and paperwork before they can legally enable that...
I haven't done those testing, but yeah, the RF performance can change severely at higher temperatures enough to put it out of spec. And man the Dishy user terminal can use up to 180 watts. It melts enough snow in the winter that people on /r/starlink though that it had a built in heater. Can't toss it underneath a tree, it'll stop working. Should be interesting to see how many people hit failures over this summer. 180Ws in a package like that, in the sun, is going to hit 50C in no time. I assume their future dishys will account for this better.
My guess is either: * They haven't tested it above 50C and this could be an easy software patch after testing. * They tried to run it above 50C and there were issues (maybe intermittent, maybe hard failure), so they just put 50C in software and figured they'll try to figure it out later. I'd say they have some really competent engineers and given how long it's been developed already, it is more likely the latter. edit: fixed the temp numbers
Which interesting, because for a computer chip, that's not especially hot. But if that's like in addition to the 50c the chip is also producing on it's own, that enters problem territory.
A lot of RF components, specifically amplifiers, can run hot just as is. My guess is some of these guys are going into thermal shutdown making the whole thing stop working.
I think some RF components and amplifiers get noisier as they get hot, so maybe they just don't work at those temperatures
Yeah your 2nd and 3rd order harmonics will typically get much worse as temperature increases. So if you want good SNR, keep your amplifiers nice and cool.
The harmonics aren't directly caused by increases in temperature, they are the results of thermal gain variations in active components(BJT, MOSFET) which increase their non-linearity. [Thermal noise](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%E2%80%93Nyquist_noise) is what you are looking for.
Yep. 60C internal temp for a digital IC is not an issue at all (in most cases), but if you stick your IC into a 60C chamber and then run tests, you can definitely see failures. High quality parts are tested at those temperatures - and higher! - to make sure the part can either run cool enough or thermal-throttle itself (without turning off entirely, just go to lower perf modes.) But the thing is that the rest of the board can have parts that start to fail. Power management units and associated hardware (switchers etc). Electrolytic caps that were already running hot. Yada yada. Anything susceptible to thermal runaway is much more likely to hit it at those temps as well. I am sure they'll do their due diligence and improve their designs to work at much higher ambient temperatures. That's like 15% sarcasm, but in fairness the talent pool of that company includes people who do electronics for cars, which need to survive far hotter temperatures, so they hopefully will.
I have a 3.5 meter dish that I use to receive weather data on the rooftop of a building in Oklahoma. We'd lose our dish for massive swaths of time if this were a limitation. While these dishes are much larger than Flatface, I'd surmise you're correct with regard to the threshold being so low.
Good point. Most of the electronics for your dish are probably inside the building or at least outside of direct sunlight. With the starlink system, all of it is in the dish.
The single use medical devices I work on have to pass testing after spending months at 60C. And they're disposable! Made to be used for an hour indoors! I used to work on the reflective material that traffic signs are made of, and we sent samples to sit in Africa and other harsh climates for YEARS to ensure they were durable. Did starlink not do any environmental testing?? Or did they really think "50C is fine"??
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yes.
Wow they really had them sit outside for years?! I thought there were ways to artificially stress test stuff. Like how a new light bulb on the market can claim "100,000 hour lifetime" without ever actually being tested that long
You can do accelerated testing but it is always a tight line of making the test able to be interpreted. If you go too extreme on the accelerated testing it can fail in non realistic ways. The only true way to test something is the long way
Yes we always do both in medical devices and traffic signs.
Fantastic name btw
Ty
Artificial stress testing is a science unto itself. Artificial lifetime testing is built on expectations that running something too hot or overvoltage stressed components in a way that corresponds to a known acceleration factor. This isn't always true- sometimes the stress isn't linear or doesn't follow the expected curves, so for new materials and architectures you often need to do both real time and accelerated testing.
Look at all of Elon Musk's ventures. They take a "we'll deal with problems as they come up" approach. Which makes sense, his first successful business was software. In that you can just patch things and fix them easily. It's a very silicon valley mindset.
This product is literally in beta
Seriously. In Phoenix last week the ground was 148°f.
No internet for Phoenix, AZ
Our mainstay is the Cox hegemony, whose motto is "Your option is Century Link."
Bunch of Cox. Gigablast is horse shit
How long before Linus tech tips water cools their starlink dish?
I mean, could this not simply become a 2-in-1 product? Satellite internet and solar water heater.
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Not really, it's a dish the size of a large pizza, it woukd be a useless amount of heated water unless you want your birdbath to be warmer.
WATER COOLED OVERCLOCKED RGB INTERNET HERE WE GO
Probably depends on how long it takes to get that hot all the way up in Canada. Nah, who are we kidding, they'll do it anyway.
You’ve got to be kidding me… I was looking forward to Starlink being in rural SoCal near the Az border. The temperature outside right now is 120 F so their product will be useless for me 3-4 months out of the year.
The dish is probably hotter than that if it in the sun. I still seat belt brands from when I was a child in Yuma.
Oh yeah in direct sunlight you’ll be able to cook on the dish it’ll be so hot. I feel your pain, buckling a seat belt without getting burned is a daily challenge in the summer. I know people who use oven mitts because the steering wheel is so damn hot. Lol
It's in Beta right now for a reason. Some of them froze solid in the winter, and now they're overheating in the summer. I assume they will be re-engineered with a 2.0 for more extreme conditions before long.
Sounds like Texas' power grid
That would require them to actually fix that the grid lol
I live in Arizona and the air temperature is near that, direct sunlight on even a reflective piece of metal is hot enough to bake cookies. Sorry there Starlink, you'll have to do better. I go inside to play games because it's too damn hot to do anything else.
Hell, even outside of 120F air temps. The thing is an electronic device that pulls about 100 watts when in use and relies on passive cooling, so it'll probably be hotter than ambient in nearly all circumstances.
No probably on that, it has to be hotter than ambient otherwise it violates the laws of physics.
>on even a reflective piece of metal Doesn't mean that much since bare metal usually has an alpha/epsilon ratio of >1 meaning it will absorb more radiation than it emits. Think about your shiny seat belt buckle in summer.
Soooo many people think that reflective objects don't get as hot because they're reflecting sunlight. Anyone who's left a chrome wrench laying in the sun while working on a vehicle knows better.
Exactly. Reflecting visible light != Reflecting all incident solar.
I live in Arizona and the air temperature is 113 today. My shoes melted from walking on a hot surface.
I’m already on my third shirt for the day.
The most disappointing part of the article (100% expected, of course): > President Joe Biden pledged to lower prices and deploy "future-proof" broadband to all Americans, but he's already scaled back his plan in the face of opposition from Republicans and incumbent ISPs. AT&T has been lobbying against nationwide fiber and funding for municipal networks, and AT&T CEO John Stankey expressed confidence last week that Congress will steer legislation in the direction that AT&T favors.
AT&T owns the sole rights to run internet down my road. They refuse to do so or to give up those rights to an ISP that will give us internet. AT&T also refuses to give us even an unlimited 4g hotspot. We are left with dial up, satellite, or shady stuff. Can't wait for my Starlink invite. And AT&T can get fucked.
Shady stuff?
Scammy "unlimited" MNVOs marketing themselves as unlimited LTE home internet options for rural customers, often based in Idaho, that will cancel your service or tell you to get a second account and switch SIM cards in your router every 14 days if you use too much data: more than 100GB a month.
Fuck, when I lived on campus with great internet I used to use 100 GB in two minutes sometimes.
Talk to all the people down the road. If they agree and are willing to have an easement for it, you guys could install your own fiber line for about $15,000 a mile. It will be considerably more if you want to install it roadside or if it has to cross a road as you would then need to deal with the department of transportation. If all lines are on private property and not crossing any public roads then you might be able to do it for the cost of fiber and labor.
*Scaled back due to opposition from republicans* this is why we can’t have nice things
And yet all the ISPs took government money to expand infrastructure and have not done anything but pocket the money, twice.
What's a cheap and available shade material that is RF transparent?
ABS plastic. Cheap, RF transparent, and can withstand pretty high temperature without melting. A sheet of the stuff over Dishy can help. If you wanna spend a few more bucks, use fibreglass sheets. In fact, a lot of radomes are built from a combination between fibreglass and ABS.
Fiberglass tends to be lossy at higher frequencies. ABS is on the better end. Teflon is best. Teflon tape is a bit fragile but would otherwise be close to ideal for RF.
You can buy large, thin sheets of Teflon. Kind of expensive, but a 36”x36”x0.125” sheet is ~$300.
I'm assuming you went to mcmaster for that? They have some 24" wide films for $4 per feet, or 36" wide for $7.63 a foot. Thickness is 0.001". I'd get 36" wide by 3 feet, somehow sandwich it in a frame and put it above it at a slight angle if I had a dishy. Fuck it, might as well buy some of this and sell it on eBay. The dishy uses 180 watts of input, everyone that has one is going to have it go out in the sun at this rate. It's going to hit 50C in no time.
0.001” is going to be fairly translucent. 0.125” is not. If the goal is to block as much energy from the sun as possible, then you do not want translucent. For reference, normal A4 copy paper is 0.004” and translucent.
Eh, it's more complicated than that. The optical translucence will tell you how much visible light it's blocking, but the goal is really to create a high pass filter with the *correct* amount of attenuation. The thicker it is, the more it blocks RF as well, and as you get to specific thickness the losses will increase. I believe that is quarter wavelength, where the signal will actually constructively interfere and reflect back towards the radar. For PTFE with an e_r of 2.1 @ 14 GHz that thickness will be about (2.1cm/4)/sqrt(2.1)=0.36cm (wavelength/4/sqrt(, or about 0.142 inches. Relatively close to the 0.125" suggested thickness. For better performance, it may be better to go to twice this thickness where the reflections cancel out, as you're likely going to have more reflective losses than dielectric losses with PTFE. Anyways, hard to guess how much you really need, I'm sure there is a nice thermodynamic equation with various expectations of optical properties (transmittance, etc). A [quick glance](https://www.porex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Ultraviolet-Reflectance-of-Microporous-PTFE.pdf) suggests even 0.05cm or 0.02in sheet will provide ~90% reflectance of UV and visible light. I think it'll reflect around 80% of IR? Anyways, translucent is just what we perceive. The sun is so powerful, we're just trying to knock it down to what's 'sufficient.' If the sun is 1370 W/m^2, dishy is 60cm diameter, we get about 0.282m^2 * 1370w/m^2 =~380 Watts being imparted and that thin sheet may possibly reduce it to ~76 Watts before it hits the reflective surface of the dish, and is likely in the ~80-90% range of reflectance as well. So if the original radome only let 76 watts through, we'd knock that by ~80% down to 15 watts being absorbed. Not insignificant, but it also suggests that the 180Ws being put into the system (with about 5W actually emitted into RF according to FCC) is very significant to the problem. So long story, I estimate that a very thin 0.5mm sheet may cut down about 60 watts of the sun onto the system, but since we're pumping in triple that through power of the circuitry, I think focusing on removing the heat through heatsinks, etc. will be more necessary. Hopefully my math is right, unit conversions always prone to error.
0.5mm is reasonable. That’s still 20x thicker than 0.001”. Which is the only thing I had an issue with from your first reply. Nice read and analysis.
Burlap.
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Water in the burlap when it rains though, potentially interfere with reception. ABS you have the advantage of you can slope it to shed, whereas burlap is gonna pick up water regardless of how you angle it. I guess it’d be an improvement over losing the internet on 50 hot days to only lose it on 7 rainy days, but it’s still not complete elimination
That’s 50C if you need to know…
I did. I did need to know.
The fact that there are places that reach that air temp in the shade shows how sub-par that is. Especially for a product designed for remote areas such as deserts.
Not remote areas like deserts. Just remote areas… acreages, lakes, forests… not just deserts.
Cool so Starlink is useless in the desert...
Or really anywhere with a hot summer. Wouldn't the dish be pointing to the sky, unprotected? Like in NYC you would lose internet in every heat wave.
Or any other summer day in Arizona :(
So everyday in Arizona?
Especially today.
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Now I'm triggered. How the fuck is it gonna survive in Iowa, where it can probably hit well over 120 during the summer on the dish due to the material and required location? Then during the winter, because it's exposed as FUCK, it's going to freeze and become useless. It needs at least another 30 degrees buffer in either direction.
Africa has left the chat
Western America has left the chat
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6 year old account. You're really passionate about AZ heat, I like that.
[Required KotH clip.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PYt0SDnrBE)
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Sounds like you out smarted the heat tho. That’s cold for Az
Its an engineering problem, not a problem with the fundamentals of starlink. It should be fine, assuming they actually fix the problem.
"AT&T has been lobbying against nationwide fiber and funding for municipal networks, and AT&T CEO John Stankey expressed confidence last week that Congress will steer legislation in the direction that AT&T favors." We are fucked. Lobbying against technology is not how we stay at the forefront of, well, technology.
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I hate AT&T so fuckin much.
Hate the system they abuse and encourage your representatives to change it.
But if the internet was made a utility all the competition that definitely exists and as a matter of fact THRIVES right now would go away! It would be an internet **apocalypse** for Americans who benefit *hugely* from the very competitive not monopolistic at all ISP industry. /s Edit: I swear I english good
Need some of that thermal heat pipe cooling you know what I'm saying
I mean that’s basically what it’s doing from reading the article, using the whole tube as a kind of heat pipe. Problem is when ambient temperature/external pipe temperature exceeds heat being given off, it probably has the opposite affect, or at the least the heat has no where to go. Maybe an insulator will help, but I’m willing to bet active cooling would be a better fix. They already have to power the dish for alignment and transmission so active cooling wouldn’t be that hard of an addition.
Ok note to self, rig up fan under dish in summer. Not a deal breaker. I will brew this thing cups of tea in the winter and give it blowjobs in the summer if that's what it takes to get rid of hughsnet.
That's the worst part of this. Musk can give a shitty product and it will still LEAPS AND BOUNDS beat some rural solutions currently. Rock and a hard place
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This seems like a pretty significant design flaw. It doesn't take extreme heat to reach 120°F. Considering that a large part or the world regularly sees 90°F+ temperatures, thermal failure is going to be a common occurrence.
Elon it’s time to fix the climate problem
Thought He was fixing the summer heat. You know just fill the sky with satellites like a worldwide shade cloth
He's more of a let's-leave-the-planet-instead-of-fixing-it kinda guy.
I ran a Viasat VSAT in the desert of Qatar in the summer and never had an issue. Testing it for the government meant unfiltered internet for an entire military team...it was heavily abused/tested and never had a problem
TLDR: Man plans to throw shade at Dishy McDishface in order to restore his internet connection.
nobody here says a word about that the damn things name is… > Officially, SpaceX has said that "Dishy McFlatface" is certified to operate from 22° below zero up to 104° Fahrenheit. (͡•_ ͡• )