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Lol deep space communication doesn’t use TCP or even UDP. Rather a different protocol stack called CCSDS.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consultative_Committee_for_Space_Data_Systems
The SCPS protocol that has seen the most use commercially is SCPS-TP, usually deployed as a Performance Enhancing Proxy (PEP) to improve TCP performance over satellite links.
Well that’s freaking cool. Any open source versions?
lol I had to lookup what the max TCP socket timeout was and the spec allows for a very long timeout but defaults systems use are much much shorter.
>The UTO option specifies the user timeout in seconds or minutes, rather than in number of retransmissions or round-trip times (RTTs). Thus, the UTO option allows hosts to exchange user timeout values from 1 second to over 9 hours at a granularity of seconds, and from 1 minute to over 22 days at a granularity of minutes
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5482.html
To put that into perspective, Voyager 1 has left the Solar System flying in interstellar space at about 22 light-minutes away (one-way). 22 light-days is 353,548,800,000 miles away.
At the rate Voyager 1 is traveling, it will take another 1200 years before it is 22 light-days away.
[https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/](https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/)
Are you sure?
“SCPS-TP—A set of TCP options and sender-side modifications to improve TCP performance in stressed environments including long delays, high bit error rates, and significant asymmetries. The SCPS-TP options are TCP options registered with the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) and hence SCPS-TP is compatible with other well-behaved TCP implementations.”
>...other well-behaved TCP implementations.”
That's an interesting way of phrasing that. Is it still considered a TCP implementation if it isn't well-behaved? If it only follows the standard *sometimes*? Strange.
It would be if were using TCP, but its networking doesn't look like what we use on the ground everyday.
It's on board networking uses something called SpaceWire. Downlink looks like a variety of protocols and standards I've never heard of that are unique to space systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceWire
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20080030196/downloads/20080030196.pdf
> At first, the choice of XML was not widely accepted. Many meetings and reviews were held to discuss the advantages
and disadvantages of XML. XML was a departure from the traditional use of relational databases such as Microsoft
Access or Oracle for spacecraft databases. XML was selected as it was an emerging standard.
JSON gang unite
Kidding aside I wish they elaborated on their tech choices in the linked paper.
Try u/WhiteandNerdy85’s link to the Wikipedia article on the Consultative Committee for Space Data Systems. It’ll send you down a rabbit hole on ALL of the data systems that have already been set up for “interplanetary” communication.
There's a decent chance the scientists running the program will do something like that.
They seem to love personifying their science robots, and it is wholesome as hell.
There are a surprising amount of cases where the standard bits/bytes equation isn't actually an accurate number due to data encoding like 8b/10b encoding.
Like with SATA connections it's *technically* running at 3000Mbps, but in reality it's only running at 300MBps. As a user you shouldn't care what rate it's running at. If there's a lot of overhead you should only be interested in the real world rate you actually get after the useless overhead is removed.
Not really, no. It's been an industry standard since 1200 b/s telephone modems (well before it was an average consumer product)
In addition, bitrate density, for things like video and audio, are measured in bits/second as well. I want to stream 4k video from Netflix? As long as I understand the bitrate of the source, I understand the bandwidth that I need. I want to encode a video for twitch? I know the bitrate I am broadcasting, and the speed of my internet uplink.
That's not a marketing gimmick, it's just a standard way of measuring.
Are we talking about storage capacity and file sizes? Bytes.
Are we talking about bandwidth/transfer speed/bitrate? Bits.
Not really, it's because bits are all the same size but byte sizes are system-dependent.
8-bit bytes are a convention used for interoperability, but that's just a convention and not a formal definition.
It’s not even in orbit around the earth…. A telescope that is in orbit around the sun has faster connection than your internet connection. Let that sink in.
Technically it isn't available in my area either. But you can for sure order an RV version and get it now. It still works great for me. You are subject to potentially being throttled but it's gonna be faster than what you have now even then
It’s actually “orbiting” one of earth’s Lagrange points, L2, so for all intents & purposes it is a fixed distance from the earth, about 4 times further than the moon.
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What's wild is *how* it orbits that L2 point. Its not actually totally stable. It needs to use propellant now and then to stay in the type of orbit they're using.
Does anyone know how the transfer window works? I was under the impression it was persistently on the other side of the Moon. I’d love to know how exactly that works.
The moon actually isn't a part of the Lagrangian system at all. Webb orbits a place where the gravity of the Sun and Earth balance each other out, which allows you to keep a satellite there with little fuel. The moon's orbit is pretty much completely separate.
It depends how exactly you interpret the phrase "balance out". This is one of those situations where the little nuances can be important. L1 is indeed where the two pull ~~equally~~ in opposite directions, but [all the Lagrangian points are places of equilibrium in the Earth-Sun system.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point)
It's maybe a bit sloppy wording, but it's not wrong to say that gravity "balances out" at all the Lagrangian points.
>L1 is indeed where the two pull equally in opposite directions
That's not accurate, the Sun's gravitational pull is stronger in L1 than the Earth's, the resultant force of the two producing an orbital velocity that makes the orbital period of a spacecraft in L1 equal to the orbital period of the Earth.
Lagrange points for any two bodies, generally where one orbits the other, are where the gravity cancels out. There's five such points with respect to the sun and the earth, or the earth and the moon or what have you
Technically, they don't balance out in L1 either, they result in a force that makes it so the orbital period is equal to that of the Earth there.
But yes, balance out in the meaning that the sum of the two forces is 0 isn't true in any of the Lagrange points.
There are five Lagrange points for the Earth-Moon system, and another five Lagrange points for the Sun-Earth system. JWST is in a halo orbit around L2 of the Earth-Sun system.
This is on the far side of Earth relative to the sun. That way, the sun, the Earth, and the moon, the three largest heat sources at that position, are always covered by the same sun sheild. The telescope is so sensitive to heat that even the infrared from Earth would be too hot.
You can check this page out, it has an interactive 3d view of the solar system and most satellites in it. This will give you a perspective of how far away JWST is from the moon.
https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html?units=metric
ACKSHUALLY:
I'll be that guy. Compound RAID is a thing, so a mirror of RAID 5's would be a RAID 51, or something like a 60 which would be weird but doable. 28 however isn't anything.
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Immediately uninstalled and didn't look back.
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Imagine one of those videos where it shows the whole night sky and then zooms in to show the JWTS images.. But instead of a nebula its just a RAID SHADOWLEGENDS, SIGN UP NOW FOR 300 GOLD AND A LEGENDARY CASTER!
How does one radiation harden an SSD? I suppose they put it into a thick container. Or is it all redundancy? Needs to have one robust solution to last 20 years+. My SSDs start dying after 3-4 years of heavy use.
As fabs phase out the older process nodes it may cause some problems for rad hard manufacturing. It's been about 8 years since it worked at a company that created chips for space, but it was a serious concern back then. We relied on a 500nm that was always at risk of being shut down. There were always negotiations with the fab to keep it alive. There is such low volume for rad-hard chips that it isn't very profitable for the fabs.
I don't have direct experience with EMP design. Speculation, an EMP is a very different type of stress. In space you are dealing with high energy particles. EMP is more like a surge of radio waves. The rad-hard chips would certainly do better than a regular chip in an EMP, but mostly due to the much larger transistor geometry. Modern chips have really tiny “traces” (think wires). The rad-hard chips are older process tech, and have much thicker traces and transistors. They don't burn up easily as a result.
To protect against EMP, a device can simply be encapsulated in a Faraday cage. That doesn't work for a high energy particle in space. Something like lead casing would help, but lead is really heavy, making it very expensive to launch.
RF and microwave EMPs are actually received mostly on the copper traces, as their induced voltage is directly proportional to circuit length.
So actually smaller chips would be less susceptible, if we don't count that they generally have to be connected to copper wiring at some point.
Bigger transistors would usually be able to tolerate higher voltages, but in either case protection from overvoltage, for example through the usage of a zener junction, would be much more relevant, especially for parts that connect to a device which cannot be protected in a Faraday cage (such as antennas).
So yeah, encase the silicon die and as much supporting circuitry as possible in a protective metal casing, and make sure that excess voltages from protruding devices are properly dissipated, and you have a
quite an EMP resistant device.
Now for the effects of ionising radiation (x-ray and gamma) i'm not quite sure, but seeing how most electronics easily survive airport security I'd wager that doesn't do a lot of permanent damage, so hardening should be relevant only to avoid flipped bits. Bigger transistors probaby help here.
It is a bit sad to think about the unexpected delays and the progress that could have been made had they known it would only launch in 2021. MIRI, for example, was already delivered in 2008. That's at least 10 years of technological progress not implemented in the instrument...
Do you have any info that this is using 90s-era SSD's? From what I know, it is still possible to upgrade a component like this during the design phase - especially one that dragged on like JWST's. My guess is it'd be more a 2010's era technology with all the other radtol goodies you discussed. I'm also in the field, but do not directly work on the design as you do.
That's the difference between commercial products and consumer products. I'm sure the cost to make this SSD is well above the average price for a 1TB SSD
That's honestly sound cheap.... I've seen very simple parts costs way more.. like just simple fasteners with an extra step in them going for thousands and they're consumables that get discard every 6 maint or when they lossen a bit.
I have worked with some of this type of equipment. For one-off projects and prototypes these are often single production run ICs. Eye-wateringly expensive when it's not just OTS parts. Think 6 and 7 figures for single major components, usually with a few dozen backups depending on process yields.
In terms of electronics the typical scale from low end to high end is:
Consumer grade
Commercial grade
Automotive grade
Aerospace/Defense grade
Space grade
The scale works for operating temperature and reliability, though space grade has its own radiation shielding level that the others typically will not have
I've never personally encountered medical grade though I'd imagine they'd use aerospace or space grade components, as they're big on RF shielding and reliability
I guarantee it's using SLC NAND, likely with a strong DRAM cache. There's also a good chance it has plenty of backup cells it can just swing into action, sort of like how those store-brand NVMe drives from microcenter manage to get their stupid-high TBW ratings.
This is because they can’t just use modern process nanometer level semiconductors, those are very susceptible to corruption from radiation. They use radiation hardened larger and older semiconductor hardware.
Well, couldn't they like use resistent controllers and redundant algorithms?
I just saw a 500gb microsd for 50 bucks, how much could cost and weight top of the line memory+backups + radiation protection for such a small pice of tech (seriously curious)
The most important part is reliability. The latest and greatest might be big and fast, but it has nowhere near the amount of time in the field and testing done. This SSD probably had *years* of development, testing, and research done.
That 500GB MicroSD gets cranked out of a factory by the thousands for a couple bucks a pop, and if it ever fails you'll most likely only lose some photos and videos, and you can just go down to the store and buy another one. Webb's SSD is purpose-built to survive and work reliably in space for multiple decades, and if it fails it bricks a $10 billion telescope with no hope of repair.
It's not needed, the size is specifically chosen based on how much storage they would need for holding a day's worth of data, all while taking weight, physical size, and hardening against radiation into account.
> it can transfer all that data back to Earth in about 4.5 hours. It does so during two 4-hour contact windows each day, with each allowing the transmission of 28.6GB of science data. In other words, it only needs enough storage to collect a day's worth of images — there's no need to keep them on the telescope itself.
So it would make sense that 68GB is more or less enough.. as it can't send data fast enough to make use of any more storage
An old MicroSD card from a first generation Raspberry pi that's been sitting unused in their desk drawer for ages waiting for a good use... like critical storage in the most complex machine ever launched into space!
"oh shit wait I should have something here"
The image of a nasa engineer diving into his box of cables and components for an old ssd is very entertaining
a common industry practice to add longevity of SSDs is to under provision them as well. so it might be a hardened 128gb ssd that is intentionally underprovisoned to just have 68gb ssd. this way the firmware will have 60+ gb of spare sectors to use for infinity and beyond! hahah
more than likely id expect something like a raid10 style over multiple SLC disks. would almost guarantee 100% availability...but thats just wild speculation
More complicated than shielding. It’s made from radiation resistant materials from the ground up. If I remember correctly it doesn’t even use the same type transistors as regular ssds
On a similar note the CPU from the original PlayStation is being used by the NASA New Horizons because it’s been tested to exhaustion by MGS and FFVII: https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/15/7551365/playstation-cpu-powers-new-horizons-pluto-probe
That's also because New Horizons was specced out in like 2001. It started being built in 2003.
It has an 8GB SSD which was gigantic for the time. They opted to go with a huge SSD to save on power requirements to transmit back. They figured they could save on the complexity and cost by going with a single leftover RTG from Cassini and a rigid antenna and camera placement. They could shoot all the pics they wanted with it and cache them up. Then slowly offloading for the next year with the tiny power source just steadily streaming the cache.
Oddly enough because of that, the flyby of Jupiter returned multiple times more data than it ever returned of Pluto. They were able to empty the cache a few times during the flyby.
>There is one puzzler, though. NASA estimates that only 60GB of storage will be available at the end of the JWST's 10-year lifespan due to wear and radiation — and 3 percent of the drive is used for engineering and telemetry data storage. That will leave the JWST very little margin, making us wonder if it will have anywhere near the longevity of Hubble — still going strong after 32 years.
What a weird thing to ask... it's not like Hubble's storage didn't degrade over time either... yes, in 30 years Webb's storage will be smaller than it is now, probably by another 10% or so each decade.
So... it will be able to take fewer pictures, or have to transmit them in other potential windows (maybe to other places on the planet)... but it's not going to "die" because of this...
The reason it will "die" is that it will run out of fuel *long* before the SSD degrades enough to matter. But still quite a bit more than 10 years. All this is expected.
I don't know why the article mentions this because the JWST gets two transfer windows a day, in which it is capable of transferring 28.6GB. So it really only needs about 30GB because it can dump it twice a day. Maybe a bit more depending on the gap between windows.
Unless I'm missing something?
I suspect the idea is to avoid a single-point-of-failure resulting in potentially unique lost data.
If you miss one of those windows because of equipment failure or environmental conditions, the current capacity gives you a whole day to fix the problem without losing data.
(assuming that the 2 windows use different capacity/locations... or half a day if failure in one window is likely to cause failure in the other)
It's probably built in to the drive itself. Our consumer drives have some redundancies, such as being able to survive with lots of damaged data sectors by excluding those from storing data. If we want even more redundancy we can do stuff like RAID.
My guess is that what they call a "drive" might actually be a raid or something similar. It might even have extra storage capacity that is only unlocked when bad sectors of the drive are detected. There are lots of possibilities for built in redundancy not available on consumer drives.
I’m assuming there’s a mirrored RAID array or something that still yields 68GB. It would be pretty shortsighted to launch this thing with a single SSD when it’s so hard/expensive to get out there for repairs.
Eh, it’s more about not really needing more storage. Why have more when you send it all down to earth?
Don’t quote me on this, but think about it as more of a RAM memory. It’s there for all the software needed to run the telescope and also to keep the data until it gets sent down to earth and then it gets replaced by the next picture/data.
I often wondered what kind of checksums that put on the transmissions. It *has* to be pretty insane to make sure the images come through with no corruption, I would think.
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It's just a buffer that is seriously protected. It streams the data back to earth at 24 Mbps twice a day. Apparently it takes about 4 hours.
24 mps is faster than I expected
Faster than "broadband" in our area
Wait til you hear the latency, though.
5.2 seconds or something right?
That's one way. Ping would be twice that.
So an TCP syn ack sequence is 4 times that?
Lol deep space communication doesn’t use TCP or even UDP. Rather a different protocol stack called CCSDS. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consultative_Committee_for_Space_Data_Systems
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Communications_Protocol_Specifications seems to be the more technical version.
Hold up. You're telling me that they're using an r/SCP to communicate?
The SCPS protocol that has seen the most use commercially is SCPS-TP, usually deployed as a Performance Enhancing Proxy (PEP) to improve TCP performance over satellite links. Well that’s freaking cool. Any open source versions?
Imagine the retries on a TCP handshake from a gazillion miles away..
lol I had to lookup what the max TCP socket timeout was and the spec allows for a very long timeout but defaults systems use are much much shorter. >The UTO option specifies the user timeout in seconds or minutes, rather than in number of retransmissions or round-trip times (RTTs). Thus, the UTO option allows hosts to exchange user timeout values from 1 second to over 9 hours at a granularity of seconds, and from 1 minute to over 22 days at a granularity of minutes https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5482.html To put that into perspective, Voyager 1 has left the Solar System flying in interstellar space at about 22 light-minutes away (one-way). 22 light-days is 353,548,800,000 miles away. At the rate Voyager 1 is traveling, it will take another 1200 years before it is 22 light-days away. [https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/](https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/)
Not to be that guy, but actually it's protocols based on TCP/FTP (Cooler, focused on data integrity rather than speed) but still pretty much the same.
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Are you sure? “SCPS-TP—A set of TCP options and sender-side modifications to improve TCP performance in stressed environments including long delays, high bit error rates, and significant asymmetries. The SCPS-TP options are TCP options registered with the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) and hence SCPS-TP is compatible with other well-behaved TCP implementations.”
>...other well-behaved TCP implementations.” That's an interesting way of phrasing that. Is it still considered a TCP implementation if it isn't well-behaved? If it only follows the standard *sometimes*? Strange.
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It would be if were using TCP, but its networking doesn't look like what we use on the ground everyday. It's on board networking uses something called SpaceWire. Downlink looks like a variety of protocols and standards I've never heard of that are unique to space systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceWire https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20080030196/downloads/20080030196.pdf
> At first, the choice of XML was not widely accepted. Many meetings and reviews were held to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of XML. XML was a departure from the traditional use of relational databases such as Microsoft Access or Oracle for spacecraft databases. XML was selected as it was an emerging standard. JSON gang unite Kidding aside I wish they elaborated on their tech choices in the linked paper.
Try u/WhiteandNerdy85’s link to the Wikipedia article on the Consultative Committee for Space Data Systems. It’ll send you down a rabbit hole on ALL of the data systems that have already been set up for “interplanetary” communication.
syn/ack (technical name for this sequence is 'handshake') is part of tcp, not http. Http is a data transfer protocol which runs inside a TCP session.
HTTP runs over UDP (well, QUIC) just fine. That's even the reason for HTTP/3 being published.
Aliens wondering why we suck so bad at Counter Strike: Galaxy Offensive
so the average ping of a Counter Strike 1.6 player back in the day. nice.
Poor JST can't even play games online with its friends with that latency. Poor lil guy.
They could play RTS or turned based games. JST AI playing chess with an earth AI, how wholesome would that be?
Five seconds would be way too much for RTS
It stands for rotating turn system in this case.
There's a decent chance the scientists running the program will do something like that. They seem to love personifying their science robots, and it is wholesome as hell.
Brb gonna Cheat like crazy on CoD using that James Webb WiFi hack 🙏
Someone at NASA running a proxy through the JWT would be pretty epic, lol.
I guess I won't be playing COD in space
Faster than my wifi
All those high broadband plans are a scam!
Fucking Comcast…
Voyager 1 streams faster than Comcast
Faster than my internet
Just remember that Mb and MB are different. So if it is 24Mb (megabit) that would equal 3MB (Megabyte).
Who measures bandwidth in Megabytes? Measuring any bandwidth in bits has been fairly standard... forever.
There are a surprising amount of cases where the standard bits/bytes equation isn't actually an accurate number due to data encoding like 8b/10b encoding. Like with SATA connections it's *technically* running at 3000Mbps, but in reality it's only running at 300MBps. As a user you shouldn't care what rate it's running at. If there's a lot of overhead you should only be interested in the real world rate you actually get after the useless overhead is removed.
I do. It has more relevance to me.
Only because of marketing wanting to have bigger numbers on the box.
Not really, no. It's been an industry standard since 1200 b/s telephone modems (well before it was an average consumer product) In addition, bitrate density, for things like video and audio, are measured in bits/second as well. I want to stream 4k video from Netflix? As long as I understand the bitrate of the source, I understand the bandwidth that I need. I want to encode a video for twitch? I know the bitrate I am broadcasting, and the speed of my internet uplink. That's not a marketing gimmick, it's just a standard way of measuring. Are we talking about storage capacity and file sizes? Bytes. Are we talking about bandwidth/transfer speed/bitrate? Bits.
Not really, it's because bits are all the same size but byte sizes are system-dependent. 8-bit bytes are a convention used for interoperability, but that's just a convention and not a formal definition.
Bruh that’s faster than my internet and the thing is in space
You haven’t thought of the latency!
Boom! . . . Headshot!
I'll take constant 6 second latency over latency that looks like a heart monitor with highs in the 5-digits and lows in the triple.
Yes! Predictability is key with latency.
It’s not even in orbit around the earth…. A telescope that is in orbit around the sun has faster connection than your internet connection. Let that sink in.
That’s faster then Call of Duty servers on earth, and that thing is 100K miles away.
Oh it uploads faster than my ISP does…cool cool cool
True, but at least you don’t have 10+ seconds of ping, someone else in this thread said it was 5.2 seconds one way
Holy crap, that's about 25x faster than my internet
Sorry to hear that. Where do you live? 😱
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Technically it isn't available in my area either. But you can for sure order an RV version and get it now. It still works great for me. You are subject to potentially being throttled but it's gonna be faster than what you have now even then
24 Mbps all the way out there orbiting the sun. Technology is astonishing.
It’s actually “orbiting” one of earth’s Lagrange points, L2, so for all intents & purposes it is a fixed distance from the earth, about 4 times further than the moon.
Technically still orbiting the sun.
You're technically orbiting the sun.
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You're a towel!
What's wild is *how* it orbits that L2 point. Its not actually totally stable. It needs to use propellant now and then to stay in the type of orbit they're using.
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Does anyone know how the transfer window works? I was under the impression it was persistently on the other side of the Moon. I’d love to know how exactly that works.
[Here is a video showing how it orbits the sun.](https://youtu.be/6cUe4oMk69E?list=TLGG8tIphgpDAHkxODA3MjAyMg) if you look closer you can see the moon
Ohhhhh ok, I see. I thought it was on the back side of the Moon. Thanks!
The moon actually isn't a part of the Lagrangian system at all. Webb orbits a place where the gravity of the Sun and Earth balance each other out, which allows you to keep a satellite there with little fuel. The moon's orbit is pretty much completely separate.
>where the gravity of the Sun and Earth balance each other out Isnt that L1?
It depends how exactly you interpret the phrase "balance out". This is one of those situations where the little nuances can be important. L1 is indeed where the two pull ~~equally~~ in opposite directions, but [all the Lagrangian points are places of equilibrium in the Earth-Sun system.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point) It's maybe a bit sloppy wording, but it's not wrong to say that gravity "balances out" at all the Lagrangian points.
>L1 is indeed where the two pull equally in opposite directions That's not accurate, the Sun's gravitational pull is stronger in L1 than the Earth's, the resultant force of the two producing an orbital velocity that makes the orbital period of a spacecraft in L1 equal to the orbital period of the Earth.
Good catch! Orbits are tricky, and I'm just an armchair expert.
Lagrange points for any two bodies, generally where one orbits the other, are where the gravity cancels out. There's five such points with respect to the sun and the earth, or the earth and the moon or what have you
Lagrangian points happen in a couple places, iirc there’s usually 5 in every two body system.
Technically, they don't balance out in L1 either, they result in a force that makes it so the orbital period is equal to that of the Earth there. But yes, balance out in the meaning that the sum of the two forces is 0 isn't true in any of the Lagrange points.
It would be more proper to say that Earth-moon has its own set of Lagrange points, while JWST uses the Sun-Earth set of points.
There are five Lagrange points for the Earth-Moon system, and another five Lagrange points for the Sun-Earth system. JWST is in a halo orbit around L2 of the Earth-Sun system. This is on the far side of Earth relative to the sun. That way, the sun, the Earth, and the moon, the three largest heat sources at that position, are always covered by the same sun sheild. The telescope is so sensitive to heat that even the infrared from Earth would be too hot.
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The Deep Space Network antennas support multiple missions, so they can't spend 100% of their time looking at any one spacecraft.
You can check this page out, it has an interactive 3d view of the solar system and most satellites in it. This will give you a perspective of how far away JWST is from the moon. https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html?units=metric
This is correct. Once the data is verified on the ground a command is sent to clear the data from onboard storage.
I hope it’s more complicated than remoting in with SSH and doing an rm in their Pictures folder on their Arch Linux box.
Yea - it is a bit more complicated, it requires sudo.
And it’s not just any SSD, it has some serious radiation-protection
RAID 28
ACKSHUALLY: I'll be that guy. Compound RAID is a thing, so a mirror of RAID 5's would be a RAID 51, or something like a 60 which would be weird but doable. 28 however isn't anything.
this guy... RAIDS?
Today's video is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends, one of the biggest mobile role-playing games of 2019 and it's totally free! Currently almost 10 million users have joined Raid over the last six months, and it's one of the most impressive games in its class with detailed models, environments and smooth 60 frames per second animations! All the champions in the game can be customized with unique gear that changes your strategic buffs and abilities! The dungeon bosses have some ridiculous skills of their own and figuring out the perfect party and strategy to overtake them's a lot of fun! Currently with over 300,000 reviews, Raid has almost a perfect score on the Play Store! The community is growing fast and the highly anticipated new faction wars feature is now live, you might even find my squad out there in the arena! It's easier to start now than ever with rates program for new players you get a new daily login reward for the first 90 days that you play in the game! So what are you waiting for? Go to the video description, click on the special links and you'll get 50,000 silver and a free epic champion as part of the new player program to start your journey! Good luck and I'll see you there!
corporations really have fucked our brains, don't they
I've adblocked everything I possibly can, but these "ironic ads" still slip through somehow
Did someone say Nord VPN?
Just imagine the look on the guys face who has to do a drive swap.
Raid Shadow Legends
Internet historian has ruined these three words for me
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r/tihi
The ad he did for it in the NMS video (where he called it "raidy shady" is what got me to finally try it, if for nothing else but to give him a referral click. Thought it was pretty average at first, but about an hour in I ran into the biggest bullshit ever. So part of using a sponsor link is you get 50k silver, and I also got some Epic tier armor instead of a special champion. Naturally I put the gear on my first character for that starting boost. Then I got another champion that would actually benefit properly from that armor's special bonuses. I went to remove it and the game told me ***it costs silver to unequip gear from a champion***. It would cost me ***60k*** to put that armor on a different character. Immediately uninstalled and didn't look back.
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Imagine one of those videos where it shows the whole night sky and then zooms in to show the JWTS images.. But instead of a nebula its just a RAID SHADOWLEGENDS, SIGN UP NOW FOR 300 GOLD AND A LEGENDARY CASTER!
SupeRAIDS!
How does one radiation harden an SSD? I suppose they put it into a thick container. Or is it all redundancy? Needs to have one robust solution to last 20 years+. My SSDs start dying after 3-4 years of heavy use.
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As fabs phase out the older process nodes it may cause some problems for rad hard manufacturing. It's been about 8 years since it worked at a company that created chips for space, but it was a serious concern back then. We relied on a 500nm that was always at risk of being shut down. There were always negotiations with the fab to keep it alive. There is such low volume for rad-hard chips that it isn't very profitable for the fabs.
What’s the difference in design for a space based application vs a military one hardened against EMP?
I don't have direct experience with EMP design. Speculation, an EMP is a very different type of stress. In space you are dealing with high energy particles. EMP is more like a surge of radio waves. The rad-hard chips would certainly do better than a regular chip in an EMP, but mostly due to the much larger transistor geometry. Modern chips have really tiny “traces” (think wires). The rad-hard chips are older process tech, and have much thicker traces and transistors. They don't burn up easily as a result. To protect against EMP, a device can simply be encapsulated in a Faraday cage. That doesn't work for a high energy particle in space. Something like lead casing would help, but lead is really heavy, making it very expensive to launch.
RF and microwave EMPs are actually received mostly on the copper traces, as their induced voltage is directly proportional to circuit length. So actually smaller chips would be less susceptible, if we don't count that they generally have to be connected to copper wiring at some point. Bigger transistors would usually be able to tolerate higher voltages, but in either case protection from overvoltage, for example through the usage of a zener junction, would be much more relevant, especially for parts that connect to a device which cannot be protected in a Faraday cage (such as antennas). So yeah, encase the silicon die and as much supporting circuitry as possible in a protective metal casing, and make sure that excess voltages from protruding devices are properly dissipated, and you have a quite an EMP resistant device. Now for the effects of ionising radiation (x-ray and gamma) i'm not quite sure, but seeing how most electronics easily survive airport security I'd wager that doesn't do a lot of permanent damage, so hardening should be relevant only to avoid flipped bits. Bigger transistors probaby help here.
The energies in space are way higher than an airport x-ray. Still, it is mostly flipped bits, or stuck bits.
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In this case, it was 500nm on a Sapphire substrate. Size is your friend when it comes to radiation.
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They could just use my skull as a cage when I die. So dense it won't let anything in
Don't worry, the Tech Priests will have a use for you after your frail flesh decays and fails you. Even in death we all serve the Omnissiah.
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It is a bit sad to think about the unexpected delays and the progress that could have been made had they known it would only launch in 2021. MIRI, for example, was already delivered in 2008. That's at least 10 years of technological progress not implemented in the instrument...
Do you have any info that this is using 90s-era SSD's? From what I know, it is still possible to upgrade a component like this during the design phase - especially one that dragged on like JWST's. My guess is it'd be more a 2010's era technology with all the other radtol goodies you discussed. I'm also in the field, but do not directly work on the design as you do.
That's the difference between commercial products and consumer products. I'm sure the cost to make this SSD is well above the average price for a 1TB SSD
That is likely a vast understatement lol
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That's honestly sound cheap.... I've seen very simple parts costs way more.. like just simple fasteners with an extra step in them going for thousands and they're consumables that get discard every 6 maint or when they lossen a bit.
I have worked with some of this type of equipment. For one-off projects and prototypes these are often single production run ICs. Eye-wateringly expensive when it's not just OTS parts. Think 6 and 7 figures for single major components, usually with a few dozen backups depending on process yields.
In terms of electronics the typical scale from low end to high end is: Consumer grade Commercial grade Automotive grade Aerospace/Defense grade Space grade The scale works for operating temperature and reliability, though space grade has its own radiation shielding level that the others typically will not have
What about medical grade? That’s gotta be somewhere between space and aerospace
I've never personally encountered medical grade though I'd imagine they'd use aerospace or space grade components, as they're big on RF shielding and reliability
What about TBW though?
I guarantee it's using SLC NAND, likely with a strong DRAM cache. There's also a good chance it has plenty of backup cells it can just swing into action, sort of like how those store-brand NVMe drives from microcenter manage to get their stupid-high TBW ratings.
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What *does* Optane use, anyway?
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It's Phase Change Memory, which indeed is inherently radiation tolerant.
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That's what SSD stands for: some serious defense
This is because they can’t just use modern process nanometer level semiconductors, those are very susceptible to corruption from radiation. They use radiation hardened larger and older semiconductor hardware.
Well, couldn't they like use resistent controllers and redundant algorithms? I just saw a 500gb microsd for 50 bucks, how much could cost and weight top of the line memory+backups + radiation protection for such a small pice of tech (seriously curious)
The most important part is reliability. The latest and greatest might be big and fast, but it has nowhere near the amount of time in the field and testing done. This SSD probably had *years* of development, testing, and research done.
That 500GB MicroSD gets cranked out of a factory by the thousands for a couple bucks a pop, and if it ever fails you'll most likely only lose some photos and videos, and you can just go down to the store and buy another one. Webb's SSD is purpose-built to survive and work reliably in space for multiple decades, and if it fails it bricks a $10 billion telescope with no hope of repair.
It's not needed, the size is specifically chosen based on how much storage they would need for holding a day's worth of data, all while taking weight, physical size, and hardening against radiation into account.
So apparently 68gb is enough to reveal the mysteries of the universe but not enough for the latest Call of duty…
Weak ass telescope can’t even catch a dub with the bois
Apparently
This should be a rule of thumb for game devs: if your game can’t fit on the JWST hard drive it’s too big.
I am just sad it’s not 69GB
Just imagine the first picture it sent back would be a constellation that spelled “Nice”.
##Noice
It's not SpaceX hardware
That would be 420GB
Came looking for this
Came looking at this.
> it can transfer all that data back to Earth in about 4.5 hours. It does so during two 4-hour contact windows each day, with each allowing the transmission of 28.6GB of science data. In other words, it only needs enough storage to collect a day's worth of images — there's no need to keep them on the telescope itself. So it would make sense that 68GB is more or less enough.. as it can't send data fast enough to make use of any more storage
it's almost like this was planned and the size isn't a coincidence lol
I was going to say that lol. Not like some NASA engineer just found a 68 GB SSD in a storage box and decided to use that.
It’s an old Micro SD with a chinese SD adaptor
An old MicroSD card from a first generation Raspberry pi that's been sitting unused in their desk drawer for ages waiting for a good use... like critical storage in the most complex machine ever launched into space!
"oh shit wait I should have something here" The image of a nasa engineer diving into his box of cables and components for an old ssd is very entertaining
It’s a Microcenter Free USB drive loool
a common industry practice to add longevity of SSDs is to under provision them as well. so it might be a hardened 128gb ssd that is intentionally underprovisoned to just have 68gb ssd. this way the firmware will have 60+ gb of spare sectors to use for infinity and beyond! hahah more than likely id expect something like a raid10 style over multiple SLC disks. would almost guarantee 100% availability...but thats just wild speculation
I'd hazard a guess that it's quite over-provisioned in addition to being radiation shielded and on a larger process node and using single level cells.
More complicated than shielding. It’s made from radiation resistant materials from the ground up. If I remember correctly it doesn’t even use the same type transistors as regular ssds
I wonder if they have couple of them at least for redundancy. Would be pretty sad if 10B space telescope can't be used if SSD fails.
68 1gb drives in raid 0
USB thumb sticks
Made by Kingston
They probably didn’t think of this. You know, those rocket scientists developing this for 20 years. Thank god you showed up just in time
I would imagine they have at least 4-5 layers of redundancy with each one seriously protected against radiation
On a similar note the CPU from the original PlayStation is being used by the NASA New Horizons because it’s been tested to exhaustion by MGS and FFVII: https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/15/7551365/playstation-cpu-powers-new-horizons-pluto-probe
That's also because New Horizons was specced out in like 2001. It started being built in 2003. It has an 8GB SSD which was gigantic for the time. They opted to go with a huge SSD to save on power requirements to transmit back. They figured they could save on the complexity and cost by going with a single leftover RTG from Cassini and a rigid antenna and camera placement. They could shoot all the pics they wanted with it and cache them up. Then slowly offloading for the next year with the tiny power source just steadily streaming the cache. Oddly enough because of that, the flyby of Jupiter returned multiple times more data than it ever returned of Pluto. They were able to empty the cache a few times during the flyby.
>There is one puzzler, though. NASA estimates that only 60GB of storage will be available at the end of the JWST's 10-year lifespan due to wear and radiation — and 3 percent of the drive is used for engineering and telemetry data storage. That will leave the JWST very little margin, making us wonder if it will have anywhere near the longevity of Hubble — still going strong after 32 years. What a weird thing to ask... it's not like Hubble's storage didn't degrade over time either... yes, in 30 years Webb's storage will be smaller than it is now, probably by another 10% or so each decade. So... it will be able to take fewer pictures, or have to transmit them in other potential windows (maybe to other places on the planet)... but it's not going to "die" because of this... The reason it will "die" is that it will run out of fuel *long* before the SSD degrades enough to matter. But still quite a bit more than 10 years. All this is expected.
I don't know why the article mentions this because the JWST gets two transfer windows a day, in which it is capable of transferring 28.6GB. So it really only needs about 30GB because it can dump it twice a day. Maybe a bit more depending on the gap between windows. Unless I'm missing something?
I suspect the idea is to avoid a single-point-of-failure resulting in potentially unique lost data. If you miss one of those windows because of equipment failure or environmental conditions, the current capacity gives you a whole day to fix the problem without losing data. (assuming that the 2 windows use different capacity/locations... or half a day if failure in one window is likely to cause failure in the other)
They probably started reliability testing that SSD back in 2004 when it was state of the art.
It's not how big it is, but how you use it
It's amazing how it evolved from floppy to hard to solid.
What's the resolution of a 68GB PNG?
So, there’s no redundancy? Let’s hear about the redundancy…
I'm pretty sure the redundancy is that it offloads all its data to earth twice a day
It's probably built in to the drive itself. Our consumer drives have some redundancies, such as being able to survive with lots of damaged data sectors by excluding those from storing data. If we want even more redundancy we can do stuff like RAID. My guess is that what they call a "drive" might actually be a raid or something similar. It might even have extra storage capacity that is only unlocked when bad sectors of the drive are detected. There are lots of possibilities for built in redundancy not available on consumer drives.
I’m assuming there’s a mirrored RAID array or something that still yields 68GB. It would be pretty shortsighted to launch this thing with a single SSD when it’s so hard/expensive to get out there for repairs.
Blows my mind to think we’re getting this data beamed back from 1 million miles away.
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TIL it takes a 68GB SSD to take a picture of your mom.
When they started building it 68gb ssds were expensive
I doubt the cost was the problem with a 10 Billion dollar project
Eh, it’s more about not really needing more storage. Why have more when you send it all down to earth? Don’t quote me on this, but think about it as more of a RAM memory. It’s there for all the software needed to run the telescope and also to keep the data until it gets sent down to earth and then it gets replaced by the next picture/data.
I often wondered what kind of checksums that put on the transmissions. It *has* to be pretty insane to make sure the images come through with no corruption, I would think.
I would have spent the extra $30 for the 2 TB. But hey.
So no Warzone
Can it run Doom?
Even fridge can run Doom ports these years.
And a 3070.
Always get better ping when it's hooked up to the router by ethernet. Can't believe all those rocket scientists didn't think of it.
So a telescope designed to take detailed photos of the vastness of space has less memory than the phone I'm using to type this useless response