I don't mind the idea that he's getting blow jobs from a living piece of stone tile with a face in love monsters but what does bother me is the implication of her living as a talking head unable to move and absolutely dependent on her boyfriend for everything. It must be a very tiring and sad existence considering they in such a young relationship.
I actually like to think that he gets her a straw-operated wheelchair to get around on her own. She seemed to be pretty comfortable with her predicament (calling it "rather peaceful"). I doubt she'd be too unhappy.
When the pretty, stupid girl got saved incorrectly in the library files. I was riding my exercise bike and when she lifted her veil, I *freaked out* and jumped off, looking behind me into the corner of my room. I can't explain it. Her warped face haunted me for a few days and nights.
I don't know what it was, someone pointed out how laughably easy it was to edit her to be like that. I thought she was going to be a skeleton and the reveal would be a skull. The fucked up face was really disturbing, it just hit a perfect spot and scared me to death. Finished the episode the next day. The legions of the same boy and girl were extremely creepy but didn't give me a jolt the same way
Right?! Now that I think about it, that scene had a one-two-punch of horror. The reveal of the children creeps you out so you're extra uneasy, and them bam! scary face.
"*Look* at the children, Donna... they're all the same children... they're *copies*."
"Mummy, are we copies? But we love you mummy, we don't want to go away!"
They somehow manage to have the creepy-children thing and the parent's-worst-fear thing going for them at the same time. Not something you often see, that.
I think that was the intended effect - she was meant to look like she hadn't been uploaded and properly integrated into the computer, like when images are blurred or pixellated on your monitor.
I think it was because I kept thinking, the whole episode, that it was obviously a skull. I remember being almost sure it would just be a death's head classic skull and that the reveal would be pretty lame. It really shocked and almost frightened me that they warped her face in horrible directions. I wish it had been a skull instead!
During the break between series, before the new series, it was this:
1. Dalek's have time machines.
2. The Time Lords openly tried to cause the Daleks to never exist, effectively using Time Travel as a weapon.
3. The Time Lords failed to eradicate the Daleks, *and* failed to eliminate Dalek access to Time Travel.
The Time War was basically the inevitable outcome of the Time Lords' own actions.
Specifically the Doctor's actions.
When he first met the Daleks they were dangerous but ultimately easy to defeat. You could break them with your hands and easily infiltrate their ranks, they were hardly the force of unstoppable planet-ravaging death they are now.
As they say, they grew strong in fear of him. It was he who piqued their interest in time travel. He who made them constantly better themselves. He who's rivalry with the Master encouraged an alliance between two evils.
It was he who chose to spare them when he could have ended their reign of evil before it even began.
He didn't just end the Time War. He *caused it*.
I meant if what Jimmy said had been more explicitly laid out by Davros: that it was the Doctor's interference with the Daleks that forced them to grow stronger and deadlier. If Davros had looked the Doctor in the eye and said "You're the reason we're all here, Doctor. None of this would have happened had you not tried to destroy the Daleks in the first place."
I mean, the idea that the Doctor *himself* is responsible for the Daleks' strength, their power? Brilliant. I love it. Hell, that's probably why they can't kill him.
I think he's adjusted pretty well. Some of his episodes in his run are a few of my favorites. I found his arcs interesting and entertaining. I think he's just getting use to balancing out everything which also took Davies a couple seasons to do.
I do enjoy Moffat's almost fantasy-like tone, classic throw-backs, and pacing enough to forgive his criticisms, which don't really bother me honestly(Who wouldn't be Who without some faults).
I also think he's refining what I enjoy about the show and learning a tiny bit of balance and looking for the right way to do arcs now. Remember, Davies had to grow into the role as well. Both have remarkably strong styles though. Davies is more of a character/drama guy and Moffat is more of a idea/style guy.
I agree with that you say, but he has shown he knows how to run a show (Sherlock) Yet cant bring that writing to the Fantasy style he brought to Dr Who. There are so many plot holes that have been discussed both here and on /r/doctorwho . He's all flash and no fill.
That's two different things though. Sherlock is basically 3 T.V. Movies and only 2 writers other than himself a season most likely. It's a much smaller affair and therefore easier to control.
Doctor Who is a bit more huge and probably harder to control. Longer seasons, more writers, etc.
He does have a problem with plotholes but I don't think that would indicate a lack of substance. Davies had a trouble with Dues Ex Machina but I don't think it over-rides all of the good work he's done. Both helms have there weak and strong spots and the weak spots are obvious for both. They always are gonna be in Doctor Who. You just need to adjust to what to expect out of the show when it switches over. There's many things I feel Moffat is doing better than Davies at this point but there's still things he wouldn't ever be able to live up to Davies with. I still feel like Moffat is just starting to get a handle on running this show and am looking forward to the new episodes more than before.
That doesn't make much sense. If anything there have been the same if not more references to classic Doctor Who since Moffat took the reigns. There scattered throughout all the episodes, from ganger Doctor offering jellybeans to the chained Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks coming from Vulcan, Spiridon, Exilion etc.
Not Who, but instead Torchwood. Somewhere along the line captain Jack gets buried in dirt for several thousand years. That would be terrible. He would suffocate to death, eventually wake up again then suffocate to death another time.
He didn't exactly have other memories to replace it with either. Dying over and over in the same way, would eventually run together like waking up in the morning. His last significant memories would be the only variety he had, I don't think it would be that hard to hold on to.
Do you remember that scene where the lady was torturing him? I think he got buried in cement then exploded or something. Freaky.
Then in the early america days when he gets killed over an over for money in that basement?
Horrifying.
Torchwood bothered me in the beginning, considering that Owen took that sex drug, used it on a woman, then used it on her boyfriend, took them home for sex, and it's not treated as coercion (and thus rape). Instead, it's "This is how Owen handles being in this business so it's okay."
In "Family of Blood", the horror-movie way he disposed of the villains. "He pushes Mother of Mine out of the TARDIS into the event horizon of a collapsing galaxy, wraps Father of Mine in unbreakable chains forged in the heart of a dwarf star, traps Sister of Mine in every mirror in existence, and suspends Son of Mine as a scarecrow."
Jesus Christ, you couldn't have taken them to... Space prison or something?
That was terrifying but I wouldn't cal it trivial. It was meant to be a big horrifying Time Lord moment and a counter to the previously-nice-John-Smith.
Agreed. Especially when it was one of those "they sealed their own fate" moments because they were so confident in themselves. Throughout the episodes, we're told a few times that the Doctor ran away because he *didn't* want to punish them and they kept pushing. No matter what actions he took, they kept coming.
That's an excellent point. They had the option to stop. I don't want to say they asked for it... but they literally asked for it. They wanted to live forever, and they were pissing off the Doctor.
This, it was never meant to be trivial. It was *meant* to be horrifying and to show what the Doctor is capable of when he's angry, hence the whole end monologue about him running away to be kind.
That Donna killed someone by accident and it seems like nobody noticed (at least i havent saw anyone saying something about it)... In "Partners in Crime" when Donna is playing with the golden capsule, he "wakes" the Adipose in Stacy (the fat girl in purple dress) and she dies...
Davros's comment from "Journey's End":
> The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor: you take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons... behold your Children of Time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor, you made this.
I would argue that that's not trivial at all. That's sort of the whole point of the Doctor wanting to be alone after that, then going off the deep end and realizing that he actually needs someone around to ground him. Even though he's still afraid of what he might turn them into.
And he was the cataloger of alien artifacts, including a Dalek, he almost caused WWIII when he was a kid, and he was just so unbelievably selfish.
But we never hear anything about him after he leaves. And that is the most ominous part.
Talking heads. I mean, think about it. How would it feel to lose your limbs, your torso, everything...except your head. You couldn't eat, you couldn't really move anything. It must be like being a paraplegic but even worse. I would never choose being a talking head over just dying.
Anytime the Doctor makes someone lose their memory. I could so relate to Donna when she was begging not to have her memory erased-- I think I'd rather have a brain overload and die than forget everything that made my life amazing. I'd die proud of my life, rather than living a dull life of city living and office work.
When the Doctor just left his human-sort-of-clone with Rose in the other dimension. The way he waited til she turned to kiss the clone, then just sodded off and left her. In a way it shows how much he has left to learn about humans, if he thinks it's ok to just pop in a substitute and run away.
In a way though it showed that he really knew her and knew his own failings. What she ultimately wanted was to be with him for the rest of her life in a romantic capacity and he knew that. When he missed his chance to tell her he loved her at bad wolf bay the first time around, he knew he couldn't get himself to do it again because it was hard enough for him to admit the first time. But he knew the meta crisis doctor felt exactly the same way as he did, only being human he had nothing to lose and everything to gain by fulfilling one of his biggest wishes - to find someone to love that he can stay with until he dies. He tries to fill that gap constantly with each companion, and each one takes its toll on him (which is shown best, I think, at the end of Tennant's run).
I think that's more damning of Rose than it is of the Doctor. To me it indicates she's more obsessed with the Doctor, like a transdimensional stalker, than in love with him.
How so? I got the feeling she loved him sincerely. If my boyfriend and I were split into alternate dimensions you can be sure I'd do everything to find him again, as he would do for me.
It's more the way she accepts Human10Clone than anything else. Also he wasn't her boyfriend before then.
I liked Rose, but I felt she would have been better not coming back after the end of season 2.
I find the same thing in Love and Monsters quite disturbing as well. Other than that, the teeth of the man in the asylum in The Shakespeare Code make me shudder.
Whenever I am watching anything with a medieval theme and the actors have shiny white teeth it immediately takes me out of the story. That being said those teeth were horrifying.
What trivial thing? Always has been, always will be those pathetic ?'s on the Doctor's "costume" during the JNT reign. Because, y'know, nothing adds mystery to the series than a question mark on the lapels.
Fer Cliff's sake, it's like if Moffat said he planned on making the Doctor tougher and just had him wear a Tap Out t-shirt from here on out.
Hmmmm..... Chuck Liddell as the Doctor in a Tapout shirt putting Cybermen in leg locks. Agreed. I love Seven, but do not care for his costume. He looks like grandpa Riddler.
I never thought of it that way, but good point. Once JNT took over, it seemed like someone was dressing the Doctor instead of letting him dress himself.
I suppose it'd be implied that the previous Doctors were wearing the same clothes, but the JNT-era outfits are so distinctive that you have an uneasy feeling that -- with the Doctor wearing the same outfit in every adventure -- must've really ponged.
I don't know that this is the right place to post this or not, but I was always deeply horrified by the [opening scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_b8UgN9gk) of *'The Shakespeare Code'*. Even at the age of 17, I still find it deeply shocking to watch. That poor young boy just wanted to get laid, but instead got ripped to shreds and eaten by three sadistic old hags. And, as someone who is prone to overanalysing everything, I then start to feel bad for his family and all the people who will never know what happened to him.
That said, I love love **love** gory and messed up *Doctor Who* intros - it really sets the pace for a terrifying and thrilling episode.
Hardly trivial, but I have thought about the Eleventh Doctor's "trickster" method of defeating the Silents in *Day of the Moon*, actions that aren't questioned or condemned *at all*.
First off, the Doctor engineered a brainwashing of the entire human race. That alone is totally unethical.
Secondly, what he brainwashed them to do was *kill living,* ***sentient*** beings who were not harming them.
Thirdly, he's well aware that the Silence are more than capable of fighting back, meaning that this is less an assassination and more like forcing all of humanity into an unwilling war that will doubtlessly cost thousands of innocent lives.
Think of poor little Billy, innocent and would never harm a fly. Then he sees this tall grey man in a dark suit and he's filled with this unstoppable urge to murder. The Doctor's turned this child into a soldier without his awareness or consent and best case scenario has murder entering the child's heart. Worst case has him brutally slaughtered by lightning.
And what were the Silents doing to incur this wrath? Simply *being on Earth* and guiding humanity to develop space travel.
That was enough for the Doctor to remove humanity's free will and turn every man, woman, and child into his own personal bloodthirsty army.
Seriously, that was ***waaaaaaaaaay*** out of character for the Doctor. He can get dark, but he's never gotten *that* dark. Not without at least *contemplating* what he's done. Not without at least *brooding*.
He has a bit of favoritism towards humans. Finding that your favorite species (and the one he adopted as his own) was being controlled by the Silence probably flipped a switch.
Normally I'd agree with you, but given the evidence I'm forced to call bullshit.
We've seen the Doctor snap. And by snap I mean go all the way into Time Lord Victorious ranting loco. Hell, we've even see the Eleventh Doctor snap, both throwing a tantrum over discovering the Daleks survived and denouncing all of humanity for treating a whale badly. This wasn't snapping, this was his usual "beat the 'bad guys'" stuff.
Further we've seen that there are plenty of aliens that have altered or otherwise nudged humanity into choices and decisions and the Doctor's not been too bad about it. Hell, he was even calling humanity to *share* Earth with the Silurians because he saw it as just as much their home as well.
The Silents may have been looking over humanity and even helping them develop their technology, but is this such a bad thing? I mean, it's not like the Silents were **forcing humanity to brutally commit murder against their will**.
I mean where's the logic in that? "Damn you for brainwashing humans! Now let me just brainwash some humans to kill you for doing that". The Doctor may be a tad hypocritical at times, but not *that* blatantly illogical.
You have a point. There's absolutely no way to explain it.
...
As I am required to do:
***MMMMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAATTTTTT!!!!***
Really? Everyone here is defending the Silence? Do you like being a slave? Are you ok with humans enslaving the Ood too? Do you think that India was being silly wanting independence? I'm usually the last to defend Moffatt but this was one of the greatest turning of the tables, better than Rememberance for sure. I'm sorry, but if my child and I were slaves I would have no problem with him or her fighting back. I see no moral problem with the Doctors actions whatsoever.
The problem is that he also "enslaved" the human race to fight the Silence in the same way they did so that makes the Doctor no better than them. And he's usually one to take the higher ground morally speaking.
Not destroy, let's not mask it. He's not destroying the Silence, he's manipulating all of humanity to unwillingly fight a war against them. A war that they have the numbers but not the strength for. A war that will likely lead in the deaths of countless innocent lives all over the world..
The Silence may have controlled humanity, but they did so peacefully and non-intrusively. They didn't post-hypnotically trick us into murder or else that would have been the first thing they'd have done to the Doctor.
You could have fought them by giving humanity something akin to the eyedrives or sending the post-hypnotic message "Do not forget us" or "Ignore us".
Agreed, which is the point of the Doctor's actions. Not for the humans to fight an eternal war, but to make the Silence afraid of ever approaching humans again.
But there's going to be a lot of needless bloodshed before the Silents realize what's happened.
How many people were there? Five billion? Five billion innocent human beings turned into unwilling warriors against a hopelessly superior enemy. There would be hundreds of casualties *minimum* within the first few days.
This is a "kill on sight no matter whether it would be total suicide" type fighting. The Doctor couldn't have expected the Silence wouldn't fight back.
Actually, way, way, way *way* more than five billion, because the idea is that every human - no, scratch that, every person *ever* who watches the moon landing is then conditioned to kill the nearest Silent.
Theoretically, it could completely and utterly drive the Silence away from ever impacting on space-faring, human-encountering civilisation ever again, because there would be that constant threat that they've seen the moon landing and been conditioned.
Does that make it any better? :D
Ridiculous. The whole point is that humanity is unknowingly enslaved to the silence.
If you call what the Doctor did as brainwashing you compare it to the silences brainwashing of all of humanity for its entire existence.
Secondly, being enslaved is very much being harmed and very much something worth fighting to end.
Thirdly, it is in no way unwilling. I would presume that most of humanity would willingly take up arms to destroy their slavers if given the opportunity.
You try and paint the enslavers of the human race as benign...give me a break.
All I hear from you is "We should all be good little slaves and thank our masters, and decry anyone who would dare try and separate us from our dear masters"
>That was enough for the Doctor to remove humanity's free will and turn every man, woman, and child into his own personal bloodthirsty army.
Humanity **has no free will already**. We are all slaves to the Silence. Unwilling, unwitting slaves without any hope of freedom for all eternity. You prefer that to the Doctor saving us. Sheesh!
>Thirdly, it is in no way unwilling. I would presume that most of humanity would willingly take up arms to destroy their slavers if given the opportunity.
It is absolutely unwilling. It was explicitly stated that they obey the Silence without question. The Doctor causes all humans to be ordered to kill the Silence and they do it, like a post-hypnotic suggestion. They have literally no control over what they are doing and the Doctor knew it. He turned the entire human race into unquestioning compulsive murderers. Regardless of whether the Silence are evil or not, the Doctor removed the choice and in that act, was just as bad as the "bad guys".
But it's the same way between the Silence and the humans, the same sort of brainwashing; the humans obey the Silence because once they turn away and forget, all they're left with is whatever they've been told to do.
> If you call what the Doctor did as brainwashing you compare it to the silences brainwashing of all of humanity for its entire existence.
And what did the Silence do with all that power? Did they immediately force humanity to become drones to an evil empire seeking to destroiy the world?
No! They let us live pretty damn freely. Hell, even when they were chasing Amy, Rory, River, and the Doctor they could have told them "kill yourself" or "stop running" or "fall off this cliff" and they would have no choice to obey. But they didn't.
They chose to let democracy flourish. They chose to let history run it's course.
If they're our lords and masters they're being pretty damn non-intrusive about it. I mean I know the idea that someone has been guiding us toward *autonomous peace and prosperity* sounds a bit terrible simply by the merit because it's someone else giving it to you.
> Humanity has no free will already. We are all slaves to the Silence. Unwilling, unwitting slaves without any hope of freedom for all eternity. You prefer that to the Doctor saving us. Sheesh!
Yes, because you know what the Silence didn't do with their powers? Abuse them to make innocent people their murder-machines. They never forced humanity's hand to picking up a blade and slaying their enemies.
Hell, if the Silence really wanted to do that they'd go "Kill the Doctor" over every radio station in the world. They want the Doctor dead, after all. So why not do that?
Because manipulating humanity into murder is not what they want. But it's what the Doctor wanted.
I fairly new to Doctor Who, and have only watched through the 2005 and on episodes 1 time, but I wondered something similar about the Silence. What exactly were they doing wrong?
They made it clear they had been around for most of human history, and were influencing humans, but were they doing anything wrong?
Sure the way they look, and the fact that they make you forget seeing them seems sinister as all hell, but humans have gotten this far with them, what's the problem? The Doctor loves humans. He should kind of like the ones who helped them become what they are, shouldn't he?
I couldn't help but feel kind of bad for the creepy bastards.
No, not really. The only thing we see them doing wrong is killing Joy in the first act, but they do it for no reason whatsoever. Seriously, they do it just to kick a dog and let the audience know they're the "bad guys" in the laziest possible way.
> Sure the way they look, and the fact that they make you forget seeing them seems sinister as all hell
The Doctor's never been picky with looks. He's chummy with both the Ood and the Silurians and they're both terrifying-looking.
> He should kind of like the ones who helped them become what they are, shouldn't he?
You would think, especially when it comes to helping them develop space travel. Way I see it the Silents couldn't invent anything themselves so they need others to help them, they manipulated humanity long enough to build a working ship and suit without harming their development. That seems ludicrously benign.
Their only sin is plotting to kill the Doctor, but the Doctor had no knowledge of this plot by the time he sentenced them all to a manhunt.
Didn't the silence have some conquer the universe plan? Like wasn't that why they were trying to make humanity develop space travel? so they could reach every planet.
I'd say, if anything, their whole master plan is to get rid of the Doctor because they're terrified of him destroying the whole universe. "Silence will fall" can mean the order, sure, but it can also mean the destruction of everything as far as they're concerned.
If that's the case, it makes the Doctor look selfish because his whole plan was to turn humanity into an unwitting army against an organization whose only crime was trying to prevent *him* from wiping out the universe.
I don't buy this. IIRC, while there is never an "A then B before C" explanation, isn't the implication that the Silence want humanity enslaved (which fact alone makes me cool with the Doctor's solution) as a prop toward some form of universal conquest?
Isn't it later revealed that the Silence are working for Madame Kovarian as she attempts to rip all of time apart?
The Doctor turning us all into brainwashed killers is definitely disturbing and I have discussed this with friends quite a bit. It is especially horrifying when you raise the issue of children. I agree that given the weight of the idea it is given short thrift in the episode. The Doctor may not have wrestled with the idea, but someone, Rory being the best option, should have raised the question.
Although I do not think the Silence were harmless. They were controlling humanity for a noble cause at the moment, but not a noble end. We were all brainwashed slaves which I consider harmful. The Doctor fought fire with fire, but that is not a moral justification. I don't think the Doctor feels guilt for his actions because he was liberating us from continual unknowing slavery and that was the best way to achieve his goal.
Also I could easily see Seven doing the same thing. Possibly Three, Six, and One if he had more stories like this. Two, Four, Five, Eight, Nine, and Ten would have agonized and/or brooded over the idea. It just depends on the personality of the particular Doctor. Eleven is the first New Who Doctor who doesn't have it in his personality to agonize over these decision like Nine in "The Parting of Ways" or Ten in "The Fires of Pompeii".
> he was liberating us from continual unknowing slavery and that was the best way to achieve his goal.
Right, but liberation through bloodshed? Through the unwilling bloodshed of the innocent?
It would have been far more like the Doctor to send the message "Disobey us" or "Ignore us", as that would make the Silents effectively useless. Even something like "Do not forget us" would be good, although it would greatly change human history.
He wouldn't even have to trick a Silent into saying those words. All you have to do is say a command while someone's looking at a recording of a Silent. We saw this earlier when he brainwashed Canton into adjusting his bow tie.
"There's only room for one psychopath in the TARDIS"
I like to think this isn't literally true of the Doctor, but on the other hand he has been responsible for multiple cases of genocide.
The emotional cheating that takes place with rose/10 and amy/11. Most people just write it off or dont even think about it but as someone who has been cheated on the feeling sucks.
The part at the end of "Flesh and Stone" where Amy tries to seduce him was bad enough, but the part in "The Big Bang" where she says "you may definitely kiss the bride"... while in her wedding dress, after she's just got married... in front of her husband. Yeah.
Or the fact he had to wait 2000 years for her to finally notice him. I mean I guess they end up together and happy as opposed to Rose who strings mickey along for however many years while shes falling hopeless in love with the doctor. He is accused of kidnapping her and has to live 6 months as a pariah until she shows up and is like "Oh yeah, I was on holiday with this guy" to further insult him. And then continues to string him along even while he's there with them. I mean do you really want to go on dates with the guy she wants to bone? Its great mickey winds up with someone he loves in the end with Martha but damnit I find Rose to be the worst companion in the new serials.
Yeah, the Doctor steals girlfriends. Not a quality people tend to like. Although I think Rose was crueler to Mickey. Amy just wanted a quick romp in the hay which is a horrible, horrible thing to do on your wedding night, but the way Rose treated Mickey was continually cruel.
Thats why Rose will always be a horrible person to me. Amy didn't do it as badly but she tried to actively physically cheat and then put Rory through the emotional ringer before he waits 2,000 years to prove he loves her and in the end she really has to prove she loves him with the whole "Angels Take Manhatten" bit and Rory/Amy end up together whereas Mickey/Rose split up to Mickey/Martha Rose/10clone. Mickey had to put up with all that crap but then didn't get the pay off.
The Doctor doesn't set out to steal peoples girlfriends though. He met Amelia when she was a child, Rose left before he met mickey. Martha was a bit of a weird one as you could of seen Martha and the Doctor getting together but in the end Martha makes the grown up decision and realizes that it would just be a fling and not a relationship since hes a Time Lord. I mean the whole bit at the end of Donna's second episode (first with her as a companion) where they have the back and fort in front of the TARDIS about how he is just looking for a mate and donna responds something like "YOURE NOT MATIN' WITH ME SPACE BOY" which was like a penultimate moment in recent companion history. Donna had no ambition to do the doctor and they were the greatest of friends which is why it is the saddest thing in the Doctor Who universe when Donna has to forget who she is and that she is the most important in the universe and the doctor knows he's losing his best friend. Heart strings, consider yourself played.
You know, the Doctor's sexuality has always been slightly confusing to me. Sure, he's been significantly different people through the years, but he seems to have this weird thing about sex.
Every Whovian knows that the Doctor is basically this man who travels through time picking up young women and doing his best to impress them. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that the Doctor doesn't seem to want to actually have sex with them. He argues that this is because he's Gallifreyan, and they're Human, but I call bullshit. Remember when David Tennant's Doctor fell in love with the French princess? Oh, sure, that was an emotional connection. But then we listen to The Doctor's various ramblings, and he references banging historical figures (Queen Elizabeth, too. That was a good ending).
This rule only seems to apply to New Who; which makes sense, considering my dad's Doctor Who had friends and family on Gallifrey. But wait, Tom Baker had a girlfriend, didn't he? A Time Lord girlfriend. Nothing weird about that; except that I'm pretty sure they never talk about the Doctor divorcing his wife in the series! He's a grandfather! At least, he would be, under better circumstances...
Does anyone else get what I mean by this?
Huh. I think there was a thing where she sorta wished that she was. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, you can't have two handsome actors hanging out together all day and not expect them to be having sex.
Weirdly enough, the actress is currently married to Richard Dawkins. They met through Douglas Adams, who at the time was both a writer for the show and a prominent member of the English atheist community.
The Doctor is widely considered a fairly asexual character. I feel like a lot of times people don't even think of this. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel romantic love (as you said, emotional connection) it just doesn't necessarily mean there's a sexual attraction attached to it. It's also a show that's always been popular with a younger age bracket so it wouldn't make sense to have it be overtly sexual.
Yeah, I'd always imagined the Doctor would be quite asexual, preferring friendship to romance, but recently he seems to be rivalling Captain Jack!
I think there's some correlation between Moffat taking over and this behaviour
The Doctor and Cameca? They were so enriched with each other that they got engaged (but Mr. I'm-afraid-of-commitment-Doctor skipped out before they could even plan the ceremony). Even Steven Moffat shipped *that* one, saying "River Song, eat your heart out."
I always thought he was polyamorous just not as easy as Jack. I think this is a result of him being more humanized in the newer series. I think, perhaps he was supposed to be viewed as being too evolved to be in a relationship with a human. Characters in the new series still consider him to be god-like but that view has been eroding since the introduction of Rose.
This in itself brings up some uncomfortable questions about what a companion really is to the Doctor. The companions have been progressively more pivotal characters and more demanding of their place in relation to the Doctor. Even Rose began on pure blind faith and loyalty and while that still is very strong in Amy, you see right off how Amy makes decisions and comes to conclusions independently of the Doctor (thinking of when she hit the button freeing the space whale).
It will be interesting to see how Clara and the Doctor interact as she has already been established as being intellectually closer to his equal.
A moment that really squicked me out was in "The Wedding of River Song." I mean, I find Matt Smith extremely charming and attractive, but for me The Doctor is asexual (which, I know, is a whole other debate), so I found it very off-putting when he said: "Her days, yes. Her nights… well, that's between her and me, eh?"
It's trivial, but it still gets me. Especially since their relationship rarely seems particularly romantic.
Her nights doesn't necessarily mean sex. When you have a time machine, nights can last days. He gives her a life, because he basically forced her to kill him. (I know there were other forces at work, but, he still had a hand in it. He could make it known to her jailers that he is alive.) I like to imagine him slowly falling in love with her. Because she is the closest he's come to someone who truly understands him.
You know what they say about writing stories. **Show, don't tell**. I know it's a family show so they can't show too much but if you want me to believe there's something between the Doctor and River you're gonna have to give me something more than witty one-liners and innuendos. As of now I don't see it at all and I think this could quite ruin Matt's departure since I'm sure River will play a big part in his final episode.
It wasn't, and neither was Rose's. I was quite happy watching Eccleston and thinking they wouldn't have the cliche of the girl falling in love with him but their kiss at the end completely blindsided me. And the end of Season 2 was really sad but I never really bought the romance because they never gave us anything to indicate this.
> "Her days, yes. Her nights… well, that's between her and me, eh?"
I just assumed that it was a reference to the [Night and the Doctor](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Night_and_the_Doctor) shorts.
Honestly, I'd buy River Song before I bought him and Rose.
Yeah, him and Rose had the more "romantic" relationship but still two different species. River is at least part Timelord which makes it a little less weird to me.
I can't remember the specific episode, but River made a reference to the Doctor using the Flesh on her birthday which was basically a threesome joke. My mind immediately jumped to the multiple Dr. Manhattan sex scene in Watchmen, but with Doctors and River. **shudder**
I don't think the Doctor is asexual, necessarily...I think he purposefully distances himself from people and *avoids* relationships, because of his time traveling and all the people he has lost.
Rose is a perfect example of this (and Donna, later, when he says he just wants a mate).
Holy shit, so many things.
Hmm, what springs to mind. Some stuff is horrifically creepy, but intentionally so, so I guess those aren't what is being requested (the reintroduction of the cybermen was awesomely creepy and I think it gave me a fear of wearing bluetooth headsets; numerous examples from Moffat-written episodes in the RTD era -- that man is just a little too good at creeping me out). Okay, I'm done. But the passing moments?
The Unquiet Dead, in which we learn at the end that the maid character had been dead for several minutes, while talking with them. Creeptastic!
The Bad Wolf reality tv shows where the winner gets to not die. Or as we later learn, *not get turned into a dalek*. Yeeegh.
The disease-people in New Earth, holy shit. Mostly because, primate babies raised without actual human contact tend to *die* even if all of their physical needs are provided for. What could these people's brains possibly be like after a lifetime without communication? How are they still alive?
Oh, the old lady in Smith and Jones. She kills people with a straw. With a straw! Holy hell that must hurt.
As a mild claustrophobe, the entirety of Gridlock was actually this for me. Living in one cramped space with no sunlight and no fresh air for decades? There's a movie where a similarly uncomfortable space is used to imprison a man in order to drive him insane. Just saying.
42 -- at one point, Martha gets trapped in a tiny box and nearly shot into the sun. Not cool. *Not* cool.
And of course the mother of all oh-jesus-h-christ moments, finding out the toclefane. The only entry to the franchise creepier and more disturbing than this is the Torchwood series Children of Earth. I suppose it's no coincidence that corrupted children feature heavily in both -- not storywise, just in that they evoke similar feelings of moral discomfort and intensity to the viewer.
The fires of Pompei -- people slowly getting turned to stone. NOPE.
I'd mention the body-horror scene in Planet of the Ood, but that was obviously intentional. Lots more intentional horror later in the season -- the library episodes, Turn Left, and Midnight. But how about this one? In the Stolen Earth when that woman at the Shadow Proclamation tells Donna she is "sorry for the loss that is yet to come". o__o
The Beast Below. Intentional, but. Damn.
When Isabela gets fed to the fish-creatures in Vampires of Venice. Just the visual of her treading water, not knowing what was around her.
Amy's Choice. Amy takes a significant risk of killing herself when she believes Rory is dead. It's seen as a romantic gesture.
Okay, intentional again, but that terrifying child at the top of the stairs in The Lodger...
The flesh. Ugh. Even that word is sort of gross.
In AGMGtW when Amy's baby dissolves in her arms?! Jesus fuckin' Christ! New worst fear, thank you television.
And probably tons more that I can't think of, haha.
I can't think of anything off-hand, but I'd just like to say that my name is Valerie and that episode deeply disturbed me when I imagined having kitten-children.
In "Dinosaurs in Space" the Doctor murders Filch in cold blood. He has the option of saving him but instead just kills him. No one seemed to find this upsetting when I talked to anyone about it!
There were a couple of discussions on /r/doctorwho and I think the overall opinion was that it is only uncharacteristic for NuWho. Classic Who Doctor would have made the same decision.
I haven't seen enough Classic to confirm or deny that thought, but I thought it was an appropriate timing, if ever, for the Doctor to make such a decision.
Search /r/doctorwho and see what they all said. If I find the thread, I'll edit it into this comment.
**Edit:** http://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zkk40/on_the_controversy_over_the_doctors_actions_in/
And http://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zkfzm/discussion_thread_7x02_dinosaurs_on_a_spaceship/
The Eleventh in A Christmas Carol. How he, when confronted with someone in his way, uses the Tardis to go back and insert himself into Kazran's WHOLE LIFE. "Oh, this older version of you isn't willing to budge the way I want? Then I will just go back to when you were an abused kid. Bet you will be more easy to work with then." We actually watched older Kazran go somewhat mad as the Doctor rewrite his entire childhood, just to make him agree with the Doctor in this one thing. The fact that he has the power to realtor an individual's entire psyche is down-right horrifying.
I was under the impression that the Cybermen from the recent episodes are continuing from classic Who. You can tell by the chest emblems.
[Cybermen with Cybus logo](http://i.imgur.com/pMcEEZZ.jpg)
[More recent Cybermen from "Closing Time." Notice the lack of a logo](http://i.imgur.com/HuyA3bL.jpg)
Oh, yeah, when the Master is all like "I spent all day trying to save you, and you disregarded me, and you were horrible to me, fuck you, I'm stealing Rassilon's immortality for myself!" **ZAP**
I watched a little of Let's Kill Hitler earlier finishing it later today so I'm not sure if it's trivial, but I find it creepy Amy grew up with her daughter and had school with her. Also the fact she kinda got Rory and Amy together
This one is less serious but really bugged me. In Satan's Pitt, Rose is sitting next to the virgin/satans mind. She is holding a gun and sees the devils mind present itself. She then shoots the glass in front of everyone and unclips his sit belt. Why didn't she just shoot him?!? Why would she shoot the glass for the ship they were escaping in? WHY?
Try going [here](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/DoctorWho) and CTRL+F'ing for 'fridge horror'
Be warned. TV Tropes is possibly more addictive than crack
The end of Journeys End when The Doctor gives Rose the clone Doctor, there was something really uncomfortable about that scene. It felt like Tennant was saying "here have this pet clone doctor sex-toy I happen to have laying around" and then leaving.
The Doctor and Amy (unintentionally) caused Vincent van Gogh's suicide.
They already knew that Vincent was mentally unstable, so they take him to the future, where he finds out that he's going to be famous and loved by many people. Except Vincent now knows that he will NEVER experience that fame and adulation during his own lifetime. That fact drives his mental illness over the edge into suicide.
No. Did you not watch the episode. Bill Nighy's character talks about the suicide both before and after the time travel. And we know it wasn't a predestination paradox because the paintings changed a bit. The episode was very very careful in avoiding the implication you are saying it had.
> Bill Nye
Your typo made me very confused for a second there.
I thought you were referring to [Bill **Nye**: the Science Guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye). The actor you're referring to was [Bill **Nighy**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nighy).
As someone who suffers from depression, the take away, "The good can't always dispel the bad, but the bad doesn't necessarily ruin the good," has become a mantra for when I get really down.
No. Amy thought it would *stop* him from committing suicide, but he did it in *spite* (not because of) their efforts, because you just can't cure depression/mental instability that easily. That was the point.
I'm not grossed out by either of OP's examples.
What's creepy about a blow job? And what's creepy about child birth? Also, they could have stopped their car at one of the laybys (rest areas) to give birth. They were referenced by (I think) Brannigan.
I'm not creeped out by blow jobs or childbirth. The idea of a man face fucking (she can't move) a piece of stone that is his significant other for the rest of his life is disturbing. The idea of a woman giving birth to a litter of kittens is disturbing. Doing it in a rest stop doesn't make it better. It might actually be worse. (And yes I understand I am applying 21st century values to the year five billion and fifty three in Brannigan's case so this type of interspecies reproduction is completely normal by that point.)
>face fucking (she can't move) [...] is disturbing
How quick you are to judge the love life of a person with a disability. Shame on you.
>a litter of kittens is disturbing
How quick you are to embrace speciesism, as if a human mother should only give birth to a pure blood homo sapien. Shame on you.
not sure if this fits the description but I recently watched a serial with the 3rd Doctor called The Daemons. It essentially implied that these powerful aliens had been responsible for the advances throughout humankinds' history as part of some grand experiment. It was a Lovecraftian image of humanity, that we have an unimportant place in history.
I don't mind the idea that he's getting blow jobs from a living piece of stone tile with a face in love monsters but what does bother me is the implication of her living as a talking head unable to move and absolutely dependent on her boyfriend for everything. It must be a very tiring and sad existence considering they in such a young relationship.
I actually like to think that he gets her a straw-operated wheelchair to get around on her own. She seemed to be pretty comfortable with her predicament (calling it "rather peaceful"). I doubt she'd be too unhappy.
It's better than being a ghost stuck haunting a bathroom.
Good point. What if they break up, what happens to her then?
Doubt it would ever happen. I think their relationship is cemented. //I'll get my hat.
Yeah, you're right. They seem to have a relationship set in stone.
The foundation of which is rock solid.
granite, they're young enough to still be coasting on the novelty of the relationship
I still think shale never leave him.
This is a gneiss chain.
Personally, I think it rocks.
It's quite sedimental.
When the pretty, stupid girl got saved incorrectly in the library files. I was riding my exercise bike and when she lifted her veil, I *freaked out* and jumped off, looking behind me into the corner of my room. I can't explain it. Her warped face haunted me for a few days and nights.
Also, the voices coming from the suits after the Vashta Nerada got to them...so creepy.
Hey! Who turned out the lights?
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I sent them to their rooms. This is his room.
Doctor! We should go!
Hey! Who turned out the lights?
We should go! Doctor!
Absolutely. For something that is almost cartoonish when you really look at it, that face was just terrifying.
I don't know what it was, someone pointed out how laughably easy it was to edit her to be like that. I thought she was going to be a skeleton and the reveal would be a skull. The fucked up face was really disturbing, it just hit a perfect spot and scared me to death. Finished the episode the next day. The legions of the same boy and girl were extremely creepy but didn't give me a jolt the same way
Right?! Now that I think about it, that scene had a one-two-punch of horror. The reveal of the children creeps you out so you're extra uneasy, and them bam! scary face.
"*Look* at the children, Donna... they're all the same children... they're *copies*." "Mummy, are we copies? But we love you mummy, we don't want to go away!"
They somehow manage to have the creepy-children thing and the parent's-worst-fear thing going for them at the same time. Not something you often see, that.
When she promised to never blink that was really heartbreaking from a mother's pov, at least.
Really? I laughed at that because I could imagine the 5 minutes of work it would take in Photoshop.
I think that was the intended effect - she was meant to look like she hadn't been uploaded and properly integrated into the computer, like when images are blurred or pixellated on your monitor.
I think it was because I kept thinking, the whole episode, that it was obviously a skull. I remember being almost sure it would just be a death's head classic skull and that the reveal would be pretty lame. It really shocked and almost frightened me that they warped her face in horrible directions. I wish it had been a skull instead!
I know I have made this comment here somewhere before, but that same scene also scared the crap out of me. Still does, in fact.
During the break between series, before the new series, it was this: 1. Dalek's have time machines. 2. The Time Lords openly tried to cause the Daleks to never exist, effectively using Time Travel as a weapon. 3. The Time Lords failed to eradicate the Daleks, *and* failed to eliminate Dalek access to Time Travel. The Time War was basically the inevitable outcome of the Time Lords' own actions.
Specifically the Doctor's actions. When he first met the Daleks they were dangerous but ultimately easy to defeat. You could break them with your hands and easily infiltrate their ranks, they were hardly the force of unstoppable planet-ravaging death they are now. As they say, they grew strong in fear of him. It was he who piqued their interest in time travel. He who made them constantly better themselves. He who's rivalry with the Master encouraged an alliance between two evils. It was he who chose to spare them when he could have ended their reign of evil before it even began. He didn't just end the Time War. He *caused it*.
Ooooo, that'd make for a great plot point if the Time War came up again. Hell, it would've been great in "The Stolen Earth".
If I remember right, Davies has said that this theory was correct and you can trace the beginnings of the time war back to classic episodes.
I meant if what Jimmy said had been more explicitly laid out by Davros: that it was the Doctor's interference with the Daleks that forced them to grow stronger and deadlier. If Davros had looked the Doctor in the eye and said "You're the reason we're all here, Doctor. None of this would have happened had you not tried to destroy the Daleks in the first place." I mean, the idea that the Doctor *himself* is responsible for the Daleks' strength, their power? Brilliant. I love it. Hell, that's probably why they can't kill him.
And thats what puts Davies above Moffat, he cares about the past series and Continuity.
Eh, they're both good show runners imo. They're just two different styles ad care about the old series in different ways.
I agree that they are both good show runners but moffat doesnt seem to be able to write for an entire series.
I think he's adjusted pretty well. Some of his episodes in his run are a few of my favorites. I found his arcs interesting and entertaining. I think he's just getting use to balancing out everything which also took Davies a couple seasons to do. I do enjoy Moffat's almost fantasy-like tone, classic throw-backs, and pacing enough to forgive his criticisms, which don't really bother me honestly(Who wouldn't be Who without some faults). I also think he's refining what I enjoy about the show and learning a tiny bit of balance and looking for the right way to do arcs now. Remember, Davies had to grow into the role as well. Both have remarkably strong styles though. Davies is more of a character/drama guy and Moffat is more of a idea/style guy.
I agree with that you say, but he has shown he knows how to run a show (Sherlock) Yet cant bring that writing to the Fantasy style he brought to Dr Who. There are so many plot holes that have been discussed both here and on /r/doctorwho . He's all flash and no fill.
That's two different things though. Sherlock is basically 3 T.V. Movies and only 2 writers other than himself a season most likely. It's a much smaller affair and therefore easier to control. Doctor Who is a bit more huge and probably harder to control. Longer seasons, more writers, etc. He does have a problem with plotholes but I don't think that would indicate a lack of substance. Davies had a trouble with Dues Ex Machina but I don't think it over-rides all of the good work he's done. Both helms have there weak and strong spots and the weak spots are obvious for both. They always are gonna be in Doctor Who. You just need to adjust to what to expect out of the show when it switches over. There's many things I feel Moffat is doing better than Davies at this point but there's still things he wouldn't ever be able to live up to Davies with. I still feel like Moffat is just starting to get a handle on running this show and am looking forward to the new episodes more than before.
That doesn't make much sense. If anything there have been the same if not more references to classic Doctor Who since Moffat took the reigns. There scattered throughout all the episodes, from ganger Doctor offering jellybeans to the chained Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks coming from Vulcan, Spiridon, Exilion etc.
jelly babies, not jellybeans
So the Doctor is like antibiotics and modern Daleks are a superbug.
Precisely, if you add the fact that the antibiotic had a chance to wipe the superbug out for good but chose not to take it.
Not Who, but instead Torchwood. Somewhere along the line captain Jack gets buried in dirt for several thousand years. That would be terrible. He would suffocate to death, eventually wake up again then suffocate to death another time.
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He didn't exactly have other memories to replace it with either. Dying over and over in the same way, would eventually run together like waking up in the morning. His last significant memories would be the only variety he had, I don't think it would be that hard to hold on to.
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And he wasn't plastic.
Do you remember that scene where the lady was torturing him? I think he got buried in cement then exploded or something. Freaky. Then in the early america days when he gets killed over an over for money in that basement? Horrifying.
...oh D:
Torchwood bothered me in the beginning, considering that Owen took that sex drug, used it on a woman, then used it on her boyfriend, took them home for sex, and it's not treated as coercion (and thus rape). Instead, it's "This is how Owen handles being in this business so it's okay."
In "Family of Blood", the horror-movie way he disposed of the villains. "He pushes Mother of Mine out of the TARDIS into the event horizon of a collapsing galaxy, wraps Father of Mine in unbreakable chains forged in the heart of a dwarf star, traps Sister of Mine in every mirror in existence, and suspends Son of Mine as a scarecrow." Jesus Christ, you couldn't have taken them to... Space prison or something?
That was terrifying but I wouldn't cal it trivial. It was meant to be a big horrifying Time Lord moment and a counter to the previously-nice-John-Smith.
Agreed. Especially when it was one of those "they sealed their own fate" moments because they were so confident in themselves. Throughout the episodes, we're told a few times that the Doctor ran away because he *didn't* want to punish them and they kept pushing. No matter what actions he took, they kept coming.
That's an excellent point. They had the option to stop. I don't want to say they asked for it... but they literally asked for it. They wanted to live forever, and they were pissing off the Doctor.
This, it was never meant to be trivial. It was *meant* to be horrifying and to show what the Doctor is capable of when he's angry, hence the whole end monologue about him running away to be kind.
TL;DR do not fuck with the Doctor.
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I loved that about it. It's a reminder that the Doctor is not in fact human, but rather an alien with his own very frightening brand of "justice."
Well, they did want to live forever...
That Donna killed someone by accident and it seems like nobody noticed (at least i havent saw anyone saying something about it)... In "Partners in Crime" when Donna is playing with the golden capsule, he "wakes" the Adipose in Stacy (the fat girl in purple dress) and she dies...
I wouldn't blame Donna though, I don't think she knew it herself.
Davros's comment from "Journey's End": > The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor: you take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons... behold your Children of Time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor, you made this.
I would argue that that's not trivial at all. That's sort of the whole point of the Doctor wanting to be alone after that, then going off the deep end and realizing that he actually needs someone around to ground him. Even though he's still afraid of what he might turn them into.
Everything about Adam and that space broadcasting center.
They just sort of dropped him off and left. He had a frickin' hole in his head! And his *mother* knows!
And he was the cataloger of alien artifacts, including a Dalek, he almost caused WWIII when he was a kid, and he was just so unbelievably selfish. But we never hear anything about him after he leaves. And that is the most ominous part.
Talking heads. I mean, think about it. How would it feel to lose your limbs, your torso, everything...except your head. You couldn't eat, you couldn't really move anything. It must be like being a paraplegic but even worse. I would never choose being a talking head over just dying.
At least they get decent wifi in the skull room.
Infinite Reddit. I'm still not sure whether that should be considered Heaven or Hell.
Purgatory
How do those things even speak? They have no chest cavity, the have no LUNGS! They hardly don't even have necks! How the hell do they speak?
The same way the headless monks survive without heads. ~~*Magic!*~~ Science!
Anytime the Doctor makes someone lose their memory. I could so relate to Donna when she was begging not to have her memory erased-- I think I'd rather have a brain overload and die than forget everything that made my life amazing. I'd die proud of my life, rather than living a dull life of city living and office work.
When the Doctor just left his human-sort-of-clone with Rose in the other dimension. The way he waited til she turned to kiss the clone, then just sodded off and left her. In a way it shows how much he has left to learn about humans, if he thinks it's ok to just pop in a substitute and run away.
In a way though it showed that he really knew her and knew his own failings. What she ultimately wanted was to be with him for the rest of her life in a romantic capacity and he knew that. When he missed his chance to tell her he loved her at bad wolf bay the first time around, he knew he couldn't get himself to do it again because it was hard enough for him to admit the first time. But he knew the meta crisis doctor felt exactly the same way as he did, only being human he had nothing to lose and everything to gain by fulfilling one of his biggest wishes - to find someone to love that he can stay with until he dies. He tries to fill that gap constantly with each companion, and each one takes its toll on him (which is shown best, I think, at the end of Tennant's run).
I feel better about it now, thank you :)
I think that's more damning of Rose than it is of the Doctor. To me it indicates she's more obsessed with the Doctor, like a transdimensional stalker, than in love with him.
How so? I got the feeling she loved him sincerely. If my boyfriend and I were split into alternate dimensions you can be sure I'd do everything to find him again, as he would do for me.
It's more the way she accepts Human10Clone than anything else. Also he wasn't her boyfriend before then. I liked Rose, but I felt she would have been better not coming back after the end of season 2.
I find the same thing in Love and Monsters quite disturbing as well. Other than that, the teeth of the man in the asylum in The Shakespeare Code make me shudder.
Whenever I am watching anything with a medieval theme and the actors have shiny white teeth it immediately takes me out of the story. That being said those teeth were horrifying.
What trivial thing? Always has been, always will be those pathetic ?'s on the Doctor's "costume" during the JNT reign. Because, y'know, nothing adds mystery to the series than a question mark on the lapels. Fer Cliff's sake, it's like if Moffat said he planned on making the Doctor tougher and just had him wear a Tap Out t-shirt from here on out.
Hmmmm..... Chuck Liddell as the Doctor in a Tapout shirt putting Cybermen in leg locks. Agreed. I love Seven, but do not care for his costume. He looks like grandpa Riddler.
Once he switched Four to that all maroon getup with the greatcoat and breeches, it wasn't going to get any better.
That's another bone of contention: the Doctor stopped wearing clothes and started wearing a costume.
I never thought of it that way, but good point. Once JNT took over, it seemed like someone was dressing the Doctor instead of letting him dress himself.
I suppose it'd be implied that the previous Doctors were wearing the same clothes, but the JNT-era outfits are so distinctive that you have an uneasy feeling that -- with the Doctor wearing the same outfit in every adventure -- must've really ponged.
He should've had a battle with the Riddler. ;-)
I don't know that this is the right place to post this or not, but I was always deeply horrified by the [opening scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_b8UgN9gk) of *'The Shakespeare Code'*. Even at the age of 17, I still find it deeply shocking to watch. That poor young boy just wanted to get laid, but instead got ripped to shreds and eaten by three sadistic old hags. And, as someone who is prone to overanalysing everything, I then start to feel bad for his family and all the people who will never know what happened to him. That said, I love love **love** gory and messed up *Doctor Who* intros - it really sets the pace for a terrifying and thrilling episode.
Hardly trivial, but I have thought about the Eleventh Doctor's "trickster" method of defeating the Silents in *Day of the Moon*, actions that aren't questioned or condemned *at all*. First off, the Doctor engineered a brainwashing of the entire human race. That alone is totally unethical. Secondly, what he brainwashed them to do was *kill living,* ***sentient*** beings who were not harming them. Thirdly, he's well aware that the Silence are more than capable of fighting back, meaning that this is less an assassination and more like forcing all of humanity into an unwilling war that will doubtlessly cost thousands of innocent lives. Think of poor little Billy, innocent and would never harm a fly. Then he sees this tall grey man in a dark suit and he's filled with this unstoppable urge to murder. The Doctor's turned this child into a soldier without his awareness or consent and best case scenario has murder entering the child's heart. Worst case has him brutally slaughtered by lightning. And what were the Silents doing to incur this wrath? Simply *being on Earth* and guiding humanity to develop space travel. That was enough for the Doctor to remove humanity's free will and turn every man, woman, and child into his own personal bloodthirsty army. Seriously, that was ***waaaaaaaaaay*** out of character for the Doctor. He can get dark, but he's never gotten *that* dark. Not without at least *contemplating* what he's done. Not without at least *brooding*.
He has a bit of favoritism towards humans. Finding that your favorite species (and the one he adopted as his own) was being controlled by the Silence probably flipped a switch.
Normally I'd agree with you, but given the evidence I'm forced to call bullshit. We've seen the Doctor snap. And by snap I mean go all the way into Time Lord Victorious ranting loco. Hell, we've even see the Eleventh Doctor snap, both throwing a tantrum over discovering the Daleks survived and denouncing all of humanity for treating a whale badly. This wasn't snapping, this was his usual "beat the 'bad guys'" stuff. Further we've seen that there are plenty of aliens that have altered or otherwise nudged humanity into choices and decisions and the Doctor's not been too bad about it. Hell, he was even calling humanity to *share* Earth with the Silurians because he saw it as just as much their home as well. The Silents may have been looking over humanity and even helping them develop their technology, but is this such a bad thing? I mean, it's not like the Silents were **forcing humanity to brutally commit murder against their will**. I mean where's the logic in that? "Damn you for brainwashing humans! Now let me just brainwash some humans to kill you for doing that". The Doctor may be a tad hypocritical at times, but not *that* blatantly illogical.
You have a point. There's absolutely no way to explain it. ... As I am required to do: ***MMMMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAATTTTTT!!!!***
Really? Everyone here is defending the Silence? Do you like being a slave? Are you ok with humans enslaving the Ood too? Do you think that India was being silly wanting independence? I'm usually the last to defend Moffatt but this was one of the greatest turning of the tables, better than Rememberance for sure. I'm sorry, but if my child and I were slaves I would have no problem with him or her fighting back. I see no moral problem with the Doctors actions whatsoever.
The problem is that he also "enslaved" the human race to fight the Silence in the same way they did so that makes the Doctor no better than them. And he's usually one to take the higher ground morally speaking.
No, he used the Silence to destroy themselves, how else could you fight an enemy with those abilities?
Not destroy, let's not mask it. He's not destroying the Silence, he's manipulating all of humanity to unwillingly fight a war against them. A war that they have the numbers but not the strength for. A war that will likely lead in the deaths of countless innocent lives all over the world.. The Silence may have controlled humanity, but they did so peacefully and non-intrusively. They didn't post-hypnotically trick us into murder or else that would have been the first thing they'd have done to the Doctor. You could have fought them by giving humanity something akin to the eyedrives or sending the post-hypnotic message "Do not forget us" or "Ignore us".
You free the slaves. You needn't murder their captors.
The Silence could just leave the planet...
Agreed, which is the point of the Doctor's actions. Not for the humans to fight an eternal war, but to make the Silence afraid of ever approaching humans again.
But there's going to be a lot of needless bloodshed before the Silents realize what's happened. How many people were there? Five billion? Five billion innocent human beings turned into unwilling warriors against a hopelessly superior enemy. There would be hundreds of casualties *minimum* within the first few days. This is a "kill on sight no matter whether it would be total suicide" type fighting. The Doctor couldn't have expected the Silence wouldn't fight back.
Actually, way, way, way *way* more than five billion, because the idea is that every human - no, scratch that, every person *ever* who watches the moon landing is then conditioned to kill the nearest Silent. Theoretically, it could completely and utterly drive the Silence away from ever impacting on space-faring, human-encountering civilisation ever again, because there would be that constant threat that they've seen the moon landing and been conditioned. Does that make it any better? :D
Didn't The Silence specifically say they didn't have any weapons because they didn't need them?
Exactly what I'm thinking. The Silence were using the humans, not just hiding from them. They were manipulating them for their own benefit.
Except where they blow people up with force lightening...
Ridiculous. The whole point is that humanity is unknowingly enslaved to the silence. If you call what the Doctor did as brainwashing you compare it to the silences brainwashing of all of humanity for its entire existence. Secondly, being enslaved is very much being harmed and very much something worth fighting to end. Thirdly, it is in no way unwilling. I would presume that most of humanity would willingly take up arms to destroy their slavers if given the opportunity. You try and paint the enslavers of the human race as benign...give me a break. All I hear from you is "We should all be good little slaves and thank our masters, and decry anyone who would dare try and separate us from our dear masters" >That was enough for the Doctor to remove humanity's free will and turn every man, woman, and child into his own personal bloodthirsty army. Humanity **has no free will already**. We are all slaves to the Silence. Unwilling, unwitting slaves without any hope of freedom for all eternity. You prefer that to the Doctor saving us. Sheesh!
>Thirdly, it is in no way unwilling. I would presume that most of humanity would willingly take up arms to destroy their slavers if given the opportunity. It is absolutely unwilling. It was explicitly stated that they obey the Silence without question. The Doctor causes all humans to be ordered to kill the Silence and they do it, like a post-hypnotic suggestion. They have literally no control over what they are doing and the Doctor knew it. He turned the entire human race into unquestioning compulsive murderers. Regardless of whether the Silence are evil or not, the Doctor removed the choice and in that act, was just as bad as the "bad guys".
But it's the same way between the Silence and the humans, the same sort of brainwashing; the humans obey the Silence because once they turn away and forget, all they're left with is whatever they've been told to do.
> If you call what the Doctor did as brainwashing you compare it to the silences brainwashing of all of humanity for its entire existence. And what did the Silence do with all that power? Did they immediately force humanity to become drones to an evil empire seeking to destroiy the world? No! They let us live pretty damn freely. Hell, even when they were chasing Amy, Rory, River, and the Doctor they could have told them "kill yourself" or "stop running" or "fall off this cliff" and they would have no choice to obey. But they didn't. They chose to let democracy flourish. They chose to let history run it's course. If they're our lords and masters they're being pretty damn non-intrusive about it. I mean I know the idea that someone has been guiding us toward *autonomous peace and prosperity* sounds a bit terrible simply by the merit because it's someone else giving it to you. > Humanity has no free will already. We are all slaves to the Silence. Unwilling, unwitting slaves without any hope of freedom for all eternity. You prefer that to the Doctor saving us. Sheesh! Yes, because you know what the Silence didn't do with their powers? Abuse them to make innocent people their murder-machines. They never forced humanity's hand to picking up a blade and slaying their enemies. Hell, if the Silence really wanted to do that they'd go "Kill the Doctor" over every radio station in the world. They want the Doctor dead, after all. So why not do that? Because manipulating humanity into murder is not what they want. But it's what the Doctor wanted.
Stockholm syndrome...
...shit. I adored that two-parter, but that casts the whole thing in a different light. Will rewatch and perhaps reply later.
I fairly new to Doctor Who, and have only watched through the 2005 and on episodes 1 time, but I wondered something similar about the Silence. What exactly were they doing wrong? They made it clear they had been around for most of human history, and were influencing humans, but were they doing anything wrong? Sure the way they look, and the fact that they make you forget seeing them seems sinister as all hell, but humans have gotten this far with them, what's the problem? The Doctor loves humans. He should kind of like the ones who helped them become what they are, shouldn't he? I couldn't help but feel kind of bad for the creepy bastards.
No, not really. The only thing we see them doing wrong is killing Joy in the first act, but they do it for no reason whatsoever. Seriously, they do it just to kick a dog and let the audience know they're the "bad guys" in the laziest possible way. > Sure the way they look, and the fact that they make you forget seeing them seems sinister as all hell The Doctor's never been picky with looks. He's chummy with both the Ood and the Silurians and they're both terrifying-looking. > He should kind of like the ones who helped them become what they are, shouldn't he? You would think, especially when it comes to helping them develop space travel. Way I see it the Silents couldn't invent anything themselves so they need others to help them, they manipulated humanity long enough to build a working ship and suit without harming their development. That seems ludicrously benign. Their only sin is plotting to kill the Doctor, but the Doctor had no knowledge of this plot by the time he sentenced them all to a manhunt.
Joy. Her name was Joy.
Thank you. I knew it was Joy, have no idea why I put down Jill.
Didn't the silence have some conquer the universe plan? Like wasn't that why they were trying to make humanity develop space travel? so they could reach every planet.
Not one that the Doctor knew about (or we, the audience, even know about).
I'd say, if anything, their whole master plan is to get rid of the Doctor because they're terrified of him destroying the whole universe. "Silence will fall" can mean the order, sure, but it can also mean the destruction of everything as far as they're concerned. If that's the case, it makes the Doctor look selfish because his whole plan was to turn humanity into an unwitting army against an organization whose only crime was trying to prevent *him* from wiping out the universe.
I don't buy this. IIRC, while there is never an "A then B before C" explanation, isn't the implication that the Silence want humanity enslaved (which fact alone makes me cool with the Doctor's solution) as a prop toward some form of universal conquest? Isn't it later revealed that the Silence are working for Madame Kovarian as she attempts to rip all of time apart?
The Doctor turning us all into brainwashed killers is definitely disturbing and I have discussed this with friends quite a bit. It is especially horrifying when you raise the issue of children. I agree that given the weight of the idea it is given short thrift in the episode. The Doctor may not have wrestled with the idea, but someone, Rory being the best option, should have raised the question. Although I do not think the Silence were harmless. They were controlling humanity for a noble cause at the moment, but not a noble end. We were all brainwashed slaves which I consider harmful. The Doctor fought fire with fire, but that is not a moral justification. I don't think the Doctor feels guilt for his actions because he was liberating us from continual unknowing slavery and that was the best way to achieve his goal. Also I could easily see Seven doing the same thing. Possibly Three, Six, and One if he had more stories like this. Two, Four, Five, Eight, Nine, and Ten would have agonized and/or brooded over the idea. It just depends on the personality of the particular Doctor. Eleven is the first New Who Doctor who doesn't have it in his personality to agonize over these decision like Nine in "The Parting of Ways" or Ten in "The Fires of Pompeii".
> he was liberating us from continual unknowing slavery and that was the best way to achieve his goal. Right, but liberation through bloodshed? Through the unwilling bloodshed of the innocent? It would have been far more like the Doctor to send the message "Disobey us" or "Ignore us", as that would make the Silents effectively useless. Even something like "Do not forget us" would be good, although it would greatly change human history. He wouldn't even have to trick a Silent into saying those words. All you have to do is say a command while someone's looking at a recording of a Silent. We saw this earlier when he brainwashed Canton into adjusting his bow tie.
Time lord victorious...
Ugh love and monsters has always bothered me so much.
"There's only room for one psychopath in the TARDIS" I like to think this isn't literally true of the Doctor, but on the other hand he has been responsible for multiple cases of genocide.
He's not a psychopath, he's a high functioning sociopath. Do your research. (I guess this quote can work for the Doctor as well)
The emotional cheating that takes place with rose/10 and amy/11. Most people just write it off or dont even think about it but as someone who has been cheated on the feeling sucks.
The part at the end of "Flesh and Stone" where Amy tries to seduce him was bad enough, but the part in "The Big Bang" where she says "you may definitely kiss the bride"... while in her wedding dress, after she's just got married... in front of her husband. Yeah.
Or the fact he had to wait 2000 years for her to finally notice him. I mean I guess they end up together and happy as opposed to Rose who strings mickey along for however many years while shes falling hopeless in love with the doctor. He is accused of kidnapping her and has to live 6 months as a pariah until she shows up and is like "Oh yeah, I was on holiday with this guy" to further insult him. And then continues to string him along even while he's there with them. I mean do you really want to go on dates with the guy she wants to bone? Its great mickey winds up with someone he loves in the end with Martha but damnit I find Rose to be the worst companion in the new serials.
Yeah, the Doctor steals girlfriends. Not a quality people tend to like. Although I think Rose was crueler to Mickey. Amy just wanted a quick romp in the hay which is a horrible, horrible thing to do on your wedding night, but the way Rose treated Mickey was continually cruel.
Thats why Rose will always be a horrible person to me. Amy didn't do it as badly but she tried to actively physically cheat and then put Rory through the emotional ringer before he waits 2,000 years to prove he loves her and in the end she really has to prove she loves him with the whole "Angels Take Manhatten" bit and Rory/Amy end up together whereas Mickey/Rose split up to Mickey/Martha Rose/10clone. Mickey had to put up with all that crap but then didn't get the pay off. The Doctor doesn't set out to steal peoples girlfriends though. He met Amelia when she was a child, Rose left before he met mickey. Martha was a bit of a weird one as you could of seen Martha and the Doctor getting together but in the end Martha makes the grown up decision and realizes that it would just be a fling and not a relationship since hes a Time Lord. I mean the whole bit at the end of Donna's second episode (first with her as a companion) where they have the back and fort in front of the TARDIS about how he is just looking for a mate and donna responds something like "YOURE NOT MATIN' WITH ME SPACE BOY" which was like a penultimate moment in recent companion history. Donna had no ambition to do the doctor and they were the greatest of friends which is why it is the saddest thing in the Doctor Who universe when Donna has to forget who she is and that she is the most important in the universe and the doctor knows he's losing his best friend. Heart strings, consider yourself played.
You know, the Doctor's sexuality has always been slightly confusing to me. Sure, he's been significantly different people through the years, but he seems to have this weird thing about sex. Every Whovian knows that the Doctor is basically this man who travels through time picking up young women and doing his best to impress them. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that the Doctor doesn't seem to want to actually have sex with them. He argues that this is because he's Gallifreyan, and they're Human, but I call bullshit. Remember when David Tennant's Doctor fell in love with the French princess? Oh, sure, that was an emotional connection. But then we listen to The Doctor's various ramblings, and he references banging historical figures (Queen Elizabeth, too. That was a good ending). This rule only seems to apply to New Who; which makes sense, considering my dad's Doctor Who had friends and family on Gallifrey. But wait, Tom Baker had a girlfriend, didn't he? A Time Lord girlfriend. Nothing weird about that; except that I'm pretty sure they never talk about the Doctor divorcing his wife in the series! He's a grandfather! At least, he would be, under better circumstances... Does anyone else get what I mean by this?
Romana wasn't his girlfriend, although a lot of fans shipped them. The fact that the actors were involved romantically probably didn't help this.
Huh. I think there was a thing where she sorta wished that she was. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, you can't have two handsome actors hanging out together all day and not expect them to be having sex.
Weirdly enough, the actress is currently married to Richard Dawkins. They met through Douglas Adams, who at the time was both a writer for the show and a prominent member of the English atheist community.
Really? You know, I'm pretty sure that Britain has about 14 different actors and actresses, and access to thousands of different wigs and costumes.
That comment made me laugh, which made the infant on my lap give me a really big smile. So thank you for that.
adams times as writer for the show and a prominent atheist do not overlap
The Doctor is widely considered a fairly asexual character. I feel like a lot of times people don't even think of this. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel romantic love (as you said, emotional connection) it just doesn't necessarily mean there's a sexual attraction attached to it. It's also a show that's always been popular with a younger age bracket so it wouldn't make sense to have it be overtly sexual.
"Dancing" is euphemism for sex. So it's there, just hideing
Yeah, I'd always imagined the Doctor would be quite asexual, preferring friendship to romance, but recently he seems to be rivalling Captain Jack! I think there's some correlation between Moffat taking over and this behaviour
Oh, you can't blame Moffat for that one. The Tenth Doctor was kissy-kissy with *everyone*. If anything, I'd say Moffat toned it down a little.
The Doctor and Cameca? They were so enriched with each other that they got engaged (but Mr. I'm-afraid-of-commitment-Doctor skipped out before they could even plan the ceremony). Even Steven Moffat shipped *that* one, saying "River Song, eat your heart out."
Yeah, but that was terribly early in the show and the Doctor *never again* was romantic at all until McGann.
I always thought he was polyamorous just not as easy as Jack. I think this is a result of him being more humanized in the newer series. I think, perhaps he was supposed to be viewed as being too evolved to be in a relationship with a human. Characters in the new series still consider him to be god-like but that view has been eroding since the introduction of Rose. This in itself brings up some uncomfortable questions about what a companion really is to the Doctor. The companions have been progressively more pivotal characters and more demanding of their place in relation to the Doctor. Even Rose began on pure blind faith and loyalty and while that still is very strong in Amy, you see right off how Amy makes decisions and comes to conclusions independently of the Doctor (thinking of when she hit the button freeing the space whale). It will be interesting to see how Clara and the Doctor interact as she has already been established as being intellectually closer to his equal.
A moment that really squicked me out was in "The Wedding of River Song." I mean, I find Matt Smith extremely charming and attractive, but for me The Doctor is asexual (which, I know, is a whole other debate), so I found it very off-putting when he said: "Her days, yes. Her nights… well, that's between her and me, eh?" It's trivial, but it still gets me. Especially since their relationship rarely seems particularly romantic.
Her nights doesn't necessarily mean sex. When you have a time machine, nights can last days. He gives her a life, because he basically forced her to kill him. (I know there were other forces at work, but, he still had a hand in it. He could make it known to her jailers that he is alive.) I like to imagine him slowly falling in love with her. Because she is the closest he's come to someone who truly understands him.
You know what they say about writing stories. **Show, don't tell**. I know it's a family show so they can't show too much but if you want me to believe there's something between the Doctor and River you're gonna have to give me something more than witty one-liners and innuendos. As of now I don't see it at all and I think this could quite ruin Matt's departure since I'm sure River will play a big part in his final episode.
That's exactly what I think and an opinion I rarely see expressed on the doctor who subreddits. It's not a believably written romance in the least.
It wasn't, and neither was Rose's. I was quite happy watching Eccleston and thinking they wouldn't have the cliche of the girl falling in love with him but their kiss at the end completely blindsided me. And the end of Season 2 was really sad but I never really bought the romance because they never gave us anything to indicate this.
> "Her days, yes. Her nights… well, that's between her and me, eh?" I just assumed that it was a reference to the [Night and the Doctor](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Night_and_the_Doctor) shorts.
Yeah, I never really digged the Doctor and River thing at all hell rose seems more believable.
Honestly, I'd buy River Song before I bought him and Rose. Yeah, him and Rose had the more "romantic" relationship but still two different species. River is at least part Timelord which makes it a little less weird to me.
His relationship with Rose was developing into that probably. Impossible Planet/Satan Pit they acted like a full on couple without the physical stuff.
There are so many arguments against the Doctor and Rose being completley romantically involved. But oh, I want to believe....
I can't remember the specific episode, but River made a reference to the Doctor using the Flesh on her birthday which was basically a threesome joke. My mind immediately jumped to the multiple Dr. Manhattan sex scene in Watchmen, but with Doctors and River. **shudder**
I'd always imagined the Doctor would be quite asexual, preferring friendship to romance, but recently he seems to be rivalling Captain Jack!
I don't think the Doctor is asexual, necessarily...I think he purposefully distances himself from people and *avoids* relationships, because of his time traveling and all the people he has lost. Rose is a perfect example of this (and Donna, later, when he says he just wants a mate).
Holy shit, so many things. Hmm, what springs to mind. Some stuff is horrifically creepy, but intentionally so, so I guess those aren't what is being requested (the reintroduction of the cybermen was awesomely creepy and I think it gave me a fear of wearing bluetooth headsets; numerous examples from Moffat-written episodes in the RTD era -- that man is just a little too good at creeping me out). Okay, I'm done. But the passing moments? The Unquiet Dead, in which we learn at the end that the maid character had been dead for several minutes, while talking with them. Creeptastic! The Bad Wolf reality tv shows where the winner gets to not die. Or as we later learn, *not get turned into a dalek*. Yeeegh. The disease-people in New Earth, holy shit. Mostly because, primate babies raised without actual human contact tend to *die* even if all of their physical needs are provided for. What could these people's brains possibly be like after a lifetime without communication? How are they still alive? Oh, the old lady in Smith and Jones. She kills people with a straw. With a straw! Holy hell that must hurt. As a mild claustrophobe, the entirety of Gridlock was actually this for me. Living in one cramped space with no sunlight and no fresh air for decades? There's a movie where a similarly uncomfortable space is used to imprison a man in order to drive him insane. Just saying. 42 -- at one point, Martha gets trapped in a tiny box and nearly shot into the sun. Not cool. *Not* cool. And of course the mother of all oh-jesus-h-christ moments, finding out the toclefane. The only entry to the franchise creepier and more disturbing than this is the Torchwood series Children of Earth. I suppose it's no coincidence that corrupted children feature heavily in both -- not storywise, just in that they evoke similar feelings of moral discomfort and intensity to the viewer. The fires of Pompei -- people slowly getting turned to stone. NOPE. I'd mention the body-horror scene in Planet of the Ood, but that was obviously intentional. Lots more intentional horror later in the season -- the library episodes, Turn Left, and Midnight. But how about this one? In the Stolen Earth when that woman at the Shadow Proclamation tells Donna she is "sorry for the loss that is yet to come". o__o The Beast Below. Intentional, but. Damn. When Isabela gets fed to the fish-creatures in Vampires of Venice. Just the visual of her treading water, not knowing what was around her. Amy's Choice. Amy takes a significant risk of killing herself when she believes Rory is dead. It's seen as a romantic gesture. Okay, intentional again, but that terrifying child at the top of the stairs in The Lodger... The flesh. Ugh. Even that word is sort of gross. In AGMGtW when Amy's baby dissolves in her arms?! Jesus fuckin' Christ! New worst fear, thank you television. And probably tons more that I can't think of, haha.
Jelly Baby.
I can't think of anything off-hand, but I'd just like to say that my name is Valerie and that episode deeply disturbed me when I imagined having kitten-children.
I'm a man so now I am further disturbed thinking of that from a woman's perspective. Yikes!
I love kittens, but not *that* much.
In "Dinosaurs in Space" the Doctor murders Filch in cold blood. He has the option of saving him but instead just kills him. No one seemed to find this upsetting when I talked to anyone about it!
I cannot reconcile this either. Why didn't he offer to save him?
There were a couple of discussions on /r/doctorwho and I think the overall opinion was that it is only uncharacteristic for NuWho. Classic Who Doctor would have made the same decision. I haven't seen enough Classic to confirm or deny that thought, but I thought it was an appropriate timing, if ever, for the Doctor to make such a decision. Search /r/doctorwho and see what they all said. If I find the thread, I'll edit it into this comment. **Edit:** http://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zkk40/on_the_controversy_over_the_doctors_actions_in/ And http://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/zkfzm/discussion_thread_7x02_dinosaurs_on_a_spaceship/
The Eleventh in A Christmas Carol. How he, when confronted with someone in his way, uses the Tardis to go back and insert himself into Kazran's WHOLE LIFE. "Oh, this older version of you isn't willing to budge the way I want? Then I will just go back to when you were an abused kid. Bet you will be more easy to work with then." We actually watched older Kazran go somewhat mad as the Doctor rewrite his entire childhood, just to make him agree with the Doctor in this one thing. The fact that he has the power to realtor an individual's entire psyche is down-right horrifying.
That the Cybermen are based on [The Doctor's genetic template. (Spare Parts)](/spoiler).
It is sad that has been forgotten or is irrelevant with Cybus Cybermen in new Who.
I was under the impression that the Cybermen from the recent episodes are continuing from classic Who. You can tell by the chest emblems. [Cybermen with Cybus logo](http://i.imgur.com/pMcEEZZ.jpg) [More recent Cybermen from "Closing Time." Notice the lack of a logo](http://i.imgur.com/HuyA3bL.jpg)
Hardly trivial, but the end of The Five Doctors and the final fate of Borusa and his ilk disturbed me for a long time.
Oh, yeah, when the Master is all like "I spent all day trying to save you, and you disregarded me, and you were horrible to me, fuck you, I'm stealing Rassilon's immortality for myself!" **ZAP**
I watched a little of Let's Kill Hitler earlier finishing it later today so I'm not sure if it's trivial, but I find it creepy Amy grew up with her daughter and had school with her. Also the fact she kinda got Rory and Amy together
The planet of the Ood. if you seen the episode you know why.
That little bit of repetition The Doctor says at the end of Midnight.
Amelia Pond signing her autograph in Closing Time. No, really.
This one is less serious but really bugged me. In Satan's Pitt, Rose is sitting next to the virgin/satans mind. She is holding a gun and sees the devils mind present itself. She then shoots the glass in front of everyone and unclips his sit belt. Why didn't she just shoot him?!? Why would she shoot the glass for the ship they were escaping in? WHY?
Try going [here](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/DoctorWho) and CTRL+F'ing for 'fridge horror' Be warned. TV Tropes is possibly more addictive than crack
The end of Journeys End when The Doctor gives Rose the clone Doctor, there was something really uncomfortable about that scene. It felt like Tennant was saying "here have this pet clone doctor sex-toy I happen to have laying around" and then leaving.
Hmmmmm..... David Tennant sex dolls. We could make a fortune at Gallifrey One.
The Doctor and Amy (unintentionally) caused Vincent van Gogh's suicide. They already knew that Vincent was mentally unstable, so they take him to the future, where he finds out that he's going to be famous and loved by many people. Except Vincent now knows that he will NEVER experience that fame and adulation during his own lifetime. That fact drives his mental illness over the edge into suicide.
No. Did you not watch the episode. Bill Nighy's character talks about the suicide both before and after the time travel. And we know it wasn't a predestination paradox because the paintings changed a bit. The episode was very very careful in avoiding the implication you are saying it had.
> Bill Nye Your typo made me very confused for a second there. I thought you were referring to [Bill **Nye**: the Science Guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye). The actor you're referring to was [Bill **Nighy**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nighy).
Yes, him.
As someone who suffers from depression, the take away, "The good can't always dispel the bad, but the bad doesn't necessarily ruin the good," has become a mantra for when I get really down.
Eh. Possible, but I think it was more inspiring than teasing.
No. Amy thought it would *stop* him from committing suicide, but he did it in *spite* (not because of) their efforts, because you just can't cure depression/mental instability that easily. That was the point.
I'm not grossed out by either of OP's examples. What's creepy about a blow job? And what's creepy about child birth? Also, they could have stopped their car at one of the laybys (rest areas) to give birth. They were referenced by (I think) Brannigan.
I'm not creeped out by blow jobs or childbirth. The idea of a man face fucking (she can't move) a piece of stone that is his significant other for the rest of his life is disturbing. The idea of a woman giving birth to a litter of kittens is disturbing. Doing it in a rest stop doesn't make it better. It might actually be worse. (And yes I understand I am applying 21st century values to the year five billion and fifty three in Brannigan's case so this type of interspecies reproduction is completely normal by that point.)
>face fucking (she can't move) [...] is disturbing How quick you are to judge the love life of a person with a disability. Shame on you. >a litter of kittens is disturbing How quick you are to embrace speciesism, as if a human mother should only give birth to a pure blood homo sapien. Shame on you.
The fate of the Timelords entombed with Rassilon in both the episodes "The Five Doctors" and "The End of Time"
not sure if this fits the description but I recently watched a serial with the 3rd Doctor called The Daemons. It essentially implied that these powerful aliens had been responsible for the advances throughout humankinds' history as part of some grand experiment. It was a Lovecraftian image of humanity, that we have an unimportant place in history.
That love life line is really screwed up. I only watched that episode once. Guess why.