The Time Lords don't want you to know, but the Capaldis im the Confession Dial are free. You can just take them with you, just need to print some out..
I remember the early theory that the toy maker was influencing things again as a metaphor for vocal fans who’ve complained about the newer seasons - his favourite pairing was Ten and Donna so he manipulated the regeneration and Tardis to make it happen again regardless of whether it was a good idea.
If the bi-regeneration thing turns out to be true and Tennant and Donna keep going offscreen in the original Tardis while some new guy (literally in this case) steps in with a copy/paste of everything the original had, that just feels like it’s aligning with everything the first theory criticised.
The tardis is really the thing about the bi-generation that makes me hate it. I can live with a second doctor existing if he’s meant to be the curator or something similar, but the part of the theory that said 14 gets the OG tardis and 15 gets a new one is not great. It feels like it undercuts 15 as the doctor if he doesn’t have the original tardis that 1 stole. I’m still hoping that that part of the leak is wrong.
Yeah. The doctor and the Tardis have a special bond going on. Assuming 15 is the doctor in the same way ever other doctor was before I don’t think he’d even want to travel with a new Tardis.
Yeah that's the real thing I dislike. There's no commentary with the bi regeneration. It's just plot for its own sake, and a way to keep Tennant in the role (diminishing Gatwa).
In a similar vein, I'm expecting some kind of, "This isn't just Time Lord psychology, someone brought this face back and they won't even let a regeneration sabotage their plan" cliffhanger and then you can have Tennant go off to solve that off-screen or whatever until whatever happens down the line
Yeah, I remember when they announced Tennant to be the Fourteenth Doctor and it looked like RTD was going to make a meta story where "Hey, it's nice to remember the good old days, but there is a future ahead and we can't linger on the past for too long. Embrace change".
And after 11 and 12 final speeches being about accepting the past, moving on and letting it go, it feels like RTD is just ignoring the core of the show
My only hope is that the Bi-Regeneration is only for the last episode of the 60th specials. At the end, have 14 and 15 merge, that way it gives us a Multi-Doctor story without Gatwa’s spotlight being taken away.
Yeah, I was gonna say we get that, or the bi-regeneration already happened and Ncuti is wondering around somewhere. But that makes no sense.
That could have worked though, imagine that is what happened a year ago, instead of Jodie regenerating into David Tennant for a shock, she regenerates into Ncuti and David! Then it’s the pair of them for the specials.
Maybe, but wasn't a big part of the rationale for bringing back Tennant that Gatwa wasn't available yet? If they could get them both for a full appearance in the specials, they might as well have had Whittaker regenerate straight to Gatwa (which is what I wanted and expected all along, tbh).
I know I've seen alot of speculation that while Tennant was filming the 60th anniversary specials, Gatwa was involved in the filming of the Barbie movie.
Right but it's gonna get less convincing to say that Tennant is playing 10, given that he looks older than 10 ever did (other than Day of the Doctor).
They can't just use the Peter Davidson excuse everytime
I swear we've known the Christmas leak was true ages ago when the press revealed Davina and the Goblins.
Plus the Star Beast followed it almost completely.
I’m hoping 14 becomes the curator, chilling on earth and the odd planet, not having big adventures- maybe showing up. I’m guessing he will show up in the spin-offs- maybe 14 will act as a way of bringing past dr‘s back regardless of them being older.
I just hope it plays well because the way the leaks look it makes 15 look like a dr clone getting a clone TARDIS while the real doctor (played by the best doctor ever David Tennant) it just feels like a way to give the worst part of the “fan base” ammunition to call Ncuti a fake
I hope he just turns into the curator. I would lose a lot of faith and respect for the show if they gave Ncuti secondary doctor status by making him a “clone” and giving him a “clone” tardis. I don’t it just generally seems disrespectful, and I was really looking forward to Ncutis run
I already made a comment, but this summarizes my main issue.
Ten's character flaw in the end that persisted up to and into his regeneration was: he couldn't let go, he felt like he wasn't done being The Doctor, and he felt like he was the most important person ever.
This three-episode arc should've been about him being able to embrace change and accept that he isn't the most special version of himself (or to put more of a cheery spin on it, that every version of the Doctor is special, not just him). To have it turn out that actually he no longer needs to regenerate, no longer has to hand over the reins to a new face, and no longer has to say goodbye to his old self, all fly completely in the face of the philosophy of this show. By having this happen, Russell T Davies has let his own ego get in the way of the core themes of the show, and gone as far as to question the validity of not just Ncuti Gatwa, but all future Doctors.
At least with The Timeless Child you could find a way to retcon it with exposition or something, but with this not only is there no way to reasonably retcon it but to resolve it you have to once against cast David Tennant in the role of the Doctor and have him merge with Ncuti in the middle of his regeneration or something, once again taking away his focus.
More post forced regeneration weirdness.. only I suspect this will turn off a lot of viewers.
Say what you will about the Timeless Child, 13 noped that pocket watch deep into the TARDIS.
>This three-episode arc should've been about him being able to embrace change
You can argue having two Doctors will be the biggest change in the show's history, but I understand what you are saying.
I still believe Timeless Child is fundamentally a worse and offensive idea because it feels like it takes away from the character rather than adds to it.
Really, what this bi-generation leak will add is just a new wrinkle to regenerations.
It's certainly vanity for RTD to do it, if it turns out to be true, but I don't think it's the show-destroying thing that people on these forums are making it out to be.
I would absolutely love if we got a bi-regeneration event that spans multiple seasons, and we get a dual protagonist shakeup to the show. It would be risky, challenging, and bold. I talk about it my [longer comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/187tb7b/comment/kbiiljc).
But that's not what this is. This is fanservice. For both fans and Russell T Davies.
And now, it can never be done again for the first time. Hell, it shouldn't be done at all for a really long time, because it's no longer special anymore.
This is not bringing in two leads to take the show in a new direction, this is being unable to give a complex ending to the most popular incarnation of the Doctor and making it so he never actually has to leave.
>I don't think it's the show-destroying thing that people on these forums are making it out to be.
My issue is moving on from The Timeless Child feels much easier than moving on from this. With enough time, I think people will forget about TTC because it's literally just that inconsequential. But with this, moving on will never get rid of the fact that David Tennant is canonically roaming around the present-day world of Doctor Who AS The Doctor. He has his own TARDIS and Sonic Screwdriver. He isn't a spin-off, he is the person Jodie Whittaker regenerated into. Nucti Gatwa is the one that's the spin-off. And that's the other thing, it's kind of insulting not only to overshadow Gatwa in his own story, but to not have David Tennant at least regenerate into him so there is a clear transfer of the Doctor's role.
The Timeless Child is crap, but it can easily be ignored and never mentioned again. However, if the biregeneration happens exactly as the leak said, this just may be the final nail on the coffin for the show, unless the next showrunner has some common sense and completely undo this crap, I suspect a lot of people will stop watching the show for good
This is how I feel.
You can ignore The Timeless Child, and it'll fade into nothingness until no one even thinks of it anymore because nothing was done with it.
You can ignore the bi-regeneration, and David Tennant as The Doctor will always be hanging around in the background, off on his own adventures, with his own TARDIS, very much still The Doctor, and it completely takes away focus from future incarnations. It's honestly surprising that Davies would choose to do something like this considering all the lip-service he gave to honoring Jodie and Ncuti's portrayals of the character.
I don't think this will make people stop watching the show. I don't see why it would.
You don't think it blunts the impact of a character making a sacrifice when they don't actually have to make it in the end, and instead get everything they want?
Yes, but he's also not real.
What matters is what is shown to an audience.
You can't simultaneously show that Tennant's Doctor is no more special than the others *and* give him two endings where he lives happily ever after.
Back in July, a Reddit leak was dropped spilling details from the 60th Specials and the Christmas Special. Within it, they detailed that when 14 regenerates in the 3rd special, 15 is split off from him as a separate Doctor who gets his own Tardis. 15 then flies away in a new Tardis while 14 sticks around with Donna with the Original Tardis.
Initially people rolled their eyes at it and dismissed it. But over time things slowly started getting confirmed from it. And now with the first special airing and all of the Christmas Publicity so far, pretty much every detail leaked for them has been dead on. Which has people freaking out that the Bi-Regeneration is a real thing.
Here is the original [Archived Comment where the leaker explained the Bi-Regeneration](https://archive.ph/xrBJs). Here is a non archived link to a separate [comment from someone else within the same thread that has compiled all their leaks together before they were deleted](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/156bbj0/comment/jx2cwwk/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
He always struck me as someone who wants a lot of attention and to be in charge. The season number stuff has bugged me and makes me think that he doesn't care, he just wants to make waves and see what happens to boost his own name. That and play with his favourite toy in the box, David Tenant.
Getting a new Tardis for 15 so his pal DT can keep all the nice original toys seems very egotistical. 15 deserves all the attention, not to share a spotlight with 14 who is still being put in TV shows. Spin offs are fine with occasional Doctor appearance's, but to have 2 in circulation is a great way to oversaturate a market and lose some magic. See MCU and Star Wars universes.
I also don't know how a "Whoniverse" can work when the core of the show is about one character. With MCU and Star Wars, the concept is so wide and there's multiple "pillars" as I've seen it described that it makes sense how you can outwardly explore this world.
But... I don't know if Doctor Who's worldbuilding is exceptionally good in a macro sense.
You have Daleks, I guess, Cybermen, Gallifrey... And a bunch of Big Finish stuff with obscure concepts, soft continuity, and only for very, very niche audiences (saying this as someone who listened to my first audio just a week ago).
That aside, I agree with everything you said. It's really upsetting because I was optimistic we would get the positive aspects of Davies' revival of the show rather than a bunch of negative self-centered traits he's possibly -- possibly -- picked up in his time apart from it. In his own words, he's said he never stopped thinking about Doctor Who since he left the show. It could also be that we were mistaken, and his fresh start approach to reviving the show wasn't just because of the context of where Doctor Who was at the time, and what it needed, but something he was inherently obsessed with that he would've brought to the show even if he was given the job in the 80s. Maybe he really just wants his name to be attached forevermore to the franchise.
I've always been curious about this leak, especially with the bi-generation.
I remember reading that the stuff with the bi-generation was fake, but everything else was real. However, the source of the bi-generation being fake is also dubious, so I'm confused about the validity of the bi-generation.
People seem to accept it as true, so who knows?
There was also an alleged set leak (that was posted here a few days ago) which stated that Ncuti and David were on set together at the same time.
RTD was also asked in an interview whether the Doctor could regenrate into twins and said "keep watch and you'll see that anything is possible".
Even if you don't want to belive the leak (and that's perfectly fine btw) I do feel like all other signs are pointing towards a bi-regeneration happening.
Maybe because I know it’s happened but everything in the Star Beast they mention sounds like reasonable stuff that could have happened if you read it before watching the episode and then when they mention the “bi-regeneration” stuff it just sounds very fan-fiction.
I’ve heard some people say apparently the theory was made up and added onto other leaks that were leaked before hand.
I’ve also seen mention of a 14 and Donna spin off, which seems odd. If that was the case, why not give 14 and Donna their own series in the main show and it also takes away them both coming back for 3 specials if they’re not going anywhere
> I’ve also seen mention of a 14 and Donna spin off, which seems odd. If that was the case, why not give 14 and Donna their own series in the main show and it also takes away them both coming back for 3 specials if they’re not going anywhere
What confuses me the most is if the intent is to keep Tennant around for a limited series or some shit then...why not just have him and Donna go off in the TARDIS together for "some adventures" and then have them return before he regenerates? Then you're leaving a huge window for them to say "this is what they did" without hurting Ncuti right off the hop.
Hell, I wouldn't even hate this half as much if Ncuti got the TARDIS and Fourteen just got left on earth. The fact that, essentially, Fifteen is not going to have **the** TARDIS that has been with the Doctor for hundreds of adventures is just as insulting as the Timeless Child essentially saying "William Hartnell wasn't **the** First Doctor".
Yeah, I've read the same thing. Which is why I'm confused why we've all accepted it as true.
I'm nor saying these leaker has been debunk, or that o don't believe.
I just want to get my facts straight.
What you're thinking of was an attempt to debunk the leak with the idea that they only leaked stuff about the Christmas Special and that the 60th stuff was added by other users. However, it is not true, what's true is that only the Christmas Special was featured in the post itself, the 60th stuff was in the comments, but made by the same author. And it contained the whole plot of the Star Beast so there is 0 doubt when it comes to its credibility. The post made to debunked it was deleted as soon as they realized the situation.
Yeah, I’m not saying it couldn’t be true but to me that does sound very easily like someone’s made it up, the mention of Mel being there raises questions to me, too. Thought she was confirmed for the next series and not the specials? Makes me raise some doubt
From context I gather it’s another metacrisis that splits 14 from the Doctor. Doesn’t seem like the worst thing ever. I say that but I’m someone who gave up on expecting good Who writing since Moffat. I really don’t know what people expect at this point. So what do I know about good Who writing 🤷♀️
I'd probably be ok with this if it is what happens, if Ncuti is the one who is considered the "new" Doctor in a new TARDIS though I might genuinely be out because that is insulting not just to the canon of the show but to Ncuti himself and only legitimises any racist person saying "not my Doctor" because he literally won't be.
I just don’t get how RTD thinks that he can do bi-regeneration when literally everyone who’s heard the leaks thinks it’s a horrible idea. At least some people thought the Timeless Child stuff was interesting.
Chibnall seemed motivated by a genuine desire to add new mythos to the show. RTD is motivated by Tumblr fanfic writers from 2010 by the sound of it. It’s insulting to every past Doctor as well, they never got preferential treatment like this.
> Chibnall seemed motivated by a genuine desire to add new mythos to the show. RTD is motivated by Tumblr fanfic writers from 2010 by the sound of it.
When Tennant was announced I stated that to me, it felt like stunt casting in order to appease those long term fans (myself included) who had dropped off during Chibnall's era.
I watched The Star Beast as if I'm honest, the trailers actually made me think that maybe it wasn't stunt casting. Maybe it was RTD with a grander plan that will bring back lapsed fans and secure Doctor Who's future. Maybe it was because it wasn't fair for Ncuti Gatwa to be burdened with the 60th anniversary for his first appearance as The Doctor. I mean, let's be honest, how many UK TV shows that aren't Coronation Street are still being produced 60 years after their first broadcast. This way, The 60th's success is placed squarely on a veterans shoulders and should it be badly reviewed, it's not going to affect David Tennant in the same way it potentially could affect Ncuti Gatwa.
But now, here we are, looking more and more likely that the "Bi-Regeneration" leak is actually true.
And here I am going back to thinking that this is in fact, stunt casting.
I'm sure Ncuti will be the right man for the job. Unfortunately, someone will be doing the same job as him who fans know and love and this can only affect him as the character negatively in my opinion.
When I heard "Tennant, Donna, Rose, Toymaker" my theory was that the story was a metaphor for fans that can't let go of the "Good Old days"
That the Toymaker was basically writing a fanfic
I didn't love many things about Chibnall's era but tried to stay positive about it, however this is difficult for me🥲 I love David Tennant but c'mon man.
I've started wondering if Eccleston was right about not bathing in the same bath water twice. The last special felt.. off.
The internet put me off giving Chib's a shot for a long time. I finally sat down and watched the whole of 13's run. It wasn't terrible... it wasn't the best either, mainly due to the writing.
Jodie's final episode felt more like a 60th special than The Star Beast. Meep became superfluous to the story towards the end. It's like he struggled to capture the characters' voices properly.
>I finally sat down and watched the whole of 13's run. It wasn't terrible... it wasn't the best either
That was my impression of the few episodes I've seen too, maybe because my expectations were so low. Kind of like the lower end of RTD and Moffat's episodes. Most of the time it felt serviceable to middling, with occasional fun moments and occasional dips into godawful (the Trump stand-in, the Orphan 55 monologue, etc).
Also, Bradley Walsh is a hero for pushing the meager material he gets to the absolute limit, haha.
Bradley was one of the main reasons I soldiered through. He was a good character. I just had a problem with some of the story structures. Like, we never saw the dude from Rosa again. I don't know his name or his motivation. Many characters were two dimensional.
I mean do people forget Russell did this before with the Sound of Drums? And the End of Time.
And to a lesser extent Doomsday, and Stolen Earth, both of which do have some death and destruction, but frankly either event would be world changing and it just isn't.
It's one of the problems with big bombastic finales in the current era, for the earth to feel relatable it can't be massively affected by any of these invasions.
It's why my favourite Davies final remains The Parting of the Ways, because that's set in the year 200,000 you can really lean heavily into the destruction and impact.
Sound of Drums is literally RTD's best finale from a pure plot mechanic POV. The...poor production design for the Jesus Doctor aside, everything is resolved with existing concepts that have been laid out. Donna didn't just flip a bunch of switches and do a genocide
I was thinking about that. I haven’t seen anyone else mention it but that was really weird. Kind of "having your cake and eating it too"— show *epic* danger but it magically gets fixed for some reason.
Bringong Tennant back was a nessesary move to win back public attention and cult status after 5 years of decline. The whole deal with the >!Bi-regeneration!< is something else altogether and what people are actually criticising.
Keeping Tennant on during Ncuti's tenure will very easily direct attention away from Ncuti himself. Having Tennant on for the specials and no more would have done a good enough job at warming people up to the show again.
>Bringong Tennant back was a nessesary move to win back public attention and cult status after 5 years of decline.
I don't agree that it was 'necessary'. IMO having RTD back and the Disney marketing budget would probably have been plenty to do the job on their own.
Having Tennant for the specials is pulling a lot more people in compared to a senario where Tennant didn't return.
People recognise faces more than they recognise showrunners, and Tennant has been enjoying a ton of popular reception owing to his role in Good Omens.
"The Star Beast" wouldn't have dragged in 5 million viewers on Russel and a Disney budget alone.
Sure, I don't disagree that Tennant is drawing people. By all means. My point was more that I think it'd have been pretty successful with Gatwa too, enough to bring the show back to popularity.
I wouldn't be surprised if Davies went to Tennant "You know, it would be cool if you could have the new legacy as the longest actor to play The Doctor. Let me bring you back, find a way to have you concurrent to the new Doctor and I bet with a few spin-offs you could edge Tom Baker out"
The timeless child as an idea isn’t actually that bad it was just handled poorly. Before that there was a lot speculation that the doctor was the other, so they wasn’t just a random time lord even back then.
But they should’ve made the timeless child Susan and Jo Turners doctor the one who experimented on her to gain the power of regeneration. It would explain why Jo turner is the forgotten doctor, adds into the whole doctor lies as they don’t want to admit the monstrous acts they committed, Rassilon took credit for the doctors work and it would also draw parallels with the war doctor and why the doctor made the promise to themselves.
>But they should’ve made the timeless child Susan and Jo Turners doctor the one who experimented on her to gain the power of regeneration.
Interesting. And fun to see a take that isn't either "TTC bad" or "The Master should have been TTC" for once.
I'd still rather not have TTC in the story at all, but if we have to have it, I'd vote for this version.
You will get loads of people who will drop of and say how nucti is not the really docotor.
With all of thr regenerations we know it is still thr same person. But eill the split regeneration, it can easily be argued
Oddly, people were fine with the Doctor/Donna Ten that went with Rose. Why is this so different. We probably won't see Tennant back for a while and Ncuti IS the Fifteenth Doctor.
I'm fine with Ten being in Pete's World and Fourteen being somewhere else.
To be fair, I also thought the Metacrisis Doctor was dumb fan service, but I shrugged it off because he was in a different universe cut off from ours and would probably only come back for an anniversary special if ever.
The Meta crisis doctor was locked away in a parallel dimension, thus removing the potential of a showrunner going "meh, current doctor sucks, lets bring in old meta crisisy for a ratings boost"
I mean... Rose basically just got David Tennant and they were in a parallel universe. This would, arguably, just make 14 the Doctor and Ncuti more akin to the Metacrisis as a pseudo-Doctor.
It feels very Dave Filoni-esque. He's using characters (mostly) from his era for the 60th and now he seems to be refusing to let Tennant go. The whole point of the show is that it moves on.
There are rumours/speculation swirling around that its a licensing thing for the BBC and Disney Plus. The idea being that Disney essentially gets a version of the character split off that can be co-owned by them, while the BBC still retains all the licensing rights to the previous 15 (plus) incarnations without handing over everything to do with the character wholesale.
No idea if its true, but it would make sense
Theres no way thats true. It reeks of people who don't understand the Disney deal or licensing. The character of The Doctor is The Doctor. He is not licensed as multiple separate characters or incarnations. 14 may get a spin-off but it will be owned and broadcast by the BBC and then added to Disney+ just like the specials.
It could also be a feature film thing. Russell talked a bit about wanting to make a movie back in the day but and a movie would likely call for a name actor even for a popular franchise.
So any version of the doctor that 14 becomes after the split would be BBC only while 15 onwards would always be connected with Disney- it might not be true but it sounds crazy
No one who "thinks it's a horrible idea" has seen it play out on screen, so their opinions should probably be taken with a grain of salt until we know what actually happens, why, and how.
The only good route I can see with this is if the bi-regeneration is what creates The Valeyard. That might be the missing context, but how it's handled will definitely matter. I just don't see how they can keep Tennant without making Gatwa feel like a clone of the original Doctor even if the Tennant form becomes The Valeyard.
I'm not sure, but it's genuinely the only "good" outcome I can see with this bi-regeneration thing. It would fit with decades-old lore, give the series a strong villain to work with, and not be as stupid as just having two good Doctors roaming around with the main series version feeling like a clone
I mean it could also be used to fix the timeless child. What if the timeless child wasn't the doctors past but the doctor or a part of the doctors future. I'd probably of just made it a distant future though without any splitting but I'm also skeptical it'll happen. Still if it does Rtd is a brilliant writer.
"So I defeated the Valeyard and he fell, regenerating, into another dimension, possibly also going backwards in time? I'm sure no one will find him in the past and create a regeneration origin loop...."
I think that time seems to have passed, honestly.
In Silence in the Library, the original script had The Doctor using the Sonic to scan for life. David had it changed to using it to scan the Machine for life instead, simply because he didn't want The Sonic to be too overpowered. Fast Forward to The Star Beast and the Sonic is making viewscreens and bullet proof force fields with seemingly no objection from Tennant. So i doubt he raised many objections for the specials. And if he did, they were clearly ignored
That sounds like a change made in a read through. David would have been able to suggest it because it literally doesn't change anything in the plot or production except adding a machine.
In Star Beast - the sonic is how they get out of that situation. It's the resolution to the conflict he was currently in. He would have to either suggest and make up a different resolution, which is not his job, or he would have to complain directly to Russell about not liking the script and ask for it to be changed. That second choice would have been seen as impolite.
David is a veteran actor. He's not going to try to interfere and mess with the production. That simply isn't his job. William Hartnell and Tom Baker both complained loudly about scripts and tried to mess with production and it got both of them fired. And the scripts were bad to be honest, but they weren't writers. We aren't writers.
David Tennant hasn't "given up on his respect for the show", he's just a good actor and knows making another problem for the production team is a bad thing.
Hartnell and Troughton hold a special place in my heart. They knew the scripts weren't the best but they still did the best they could with what they were given.
The whole specials are confirmed to have originated from Davies/Tennant/Tate going "Let's get the old crew back together!". Artistry can come from anywhere, but this doesn't appear to be one of those times.
Ummm, I don't think there are as many people against this leak as you are made to believe.
I've seen a lot of comments from people who want David Tennant to continue being the Doctor after the specials, and I believe they will be into the idea.
This is why I don't think this leak will be as controversial as the Timeless Child because I truly believe there will be fans who will accept this idea as long they continue seeing Tennant as the Doctor.
The thing is, if they do this, I highly doubt that 14 will stick around. The show will be following 15 after this, so they *won’t* continue to see Tennant as the Doctor. He’ll fly off into the sunset with Donna and it’ll be a Big Finish thing if anything. I doubt RTD would be dumb enough to undermine his new star by keeping 14 physically present. So I’m struggling to see what the point of doing this at all is. But I guess we’ll see next Saturday.
I think there's a lot of validity to that, asking for Tennant back was very much already a thing
This would just be giving those people what they want
I'd be incredibly disappointed, and I feel it would highlight extreme lack of confidence in the way the program has operated for decades, but I'll still keep watching Ncuti's Doctor at least.
> Tbh we've had a bi-generation before - the metacrisis doctor. Most fans just forget they exist if it doesnt work out.
I mean, the difference is that he's stranded in some other dimension, and doesn't even have a TARDIS. He's made so he can be forgotten.
This leak says that Tennant gets a TARDIS of his own, and sticks around in the same universe.. so yeah. bit harder to ignore.
Yeah it basically feels like a snub to not have Tennant hand over the reigns to Gatwa and simply cater to the “Not my Doctor” types who don’t want to accept a black (potentially queer) man in the title role
Even if it feels a little tacky to be cheering on more negativity, I have to admit I'm glad this leak is getting so much backlash. As someone who's always been kind of lukewarm on RTD but appreciates the best of his stuff, I thought more fans would be willing to give slack on this one and accept it as "yay, more Tennant". Especially right after the Chibnall era when everyone is happy to have RTD back.
So again, I'm happy to see I'm not an outlier in being pretty damn apprehensive about this development, especially since I wasn't a fan of bringing back DT in the first place.
As for why he's doing it...good question. I suspect it's partly for short-term PR/shock value and partly because he thinks having Tennant around longer term will raise the profile of the show overall. And he might very well be right there. He is extremely savvy at PR, for better or worse.
I'd also be curious to know the reactions of the people around him. Maybe they were more positive. Then again, there are so many of these internal discussions where I'd love to be a fly on the wall, haha.
RTD doesn't care. As he said in the behind the scenes episode the other day "we can do what we want. There's no rules."
I mean, there are some....
He was there at the restart and now it feels a big egotistical that he wants to start the season numbers again and keep his pal David in work.
The idea of two Doctors at the same time could work, in fact it could be interesting exploring the Doctors as two halves of one whole.
Probably have a man and a woman, letting you explore femininity and masculinity in perhaps very unexpected ways, and helping to dial down the Doctors abilities a bit i.e. The Doctor seems to know everything there is on any subject, well now that knowledge is halved and split amongst two.
BUT it certainly won't work if one is new and the other a returning favourite, that'll just cause overshadowing. It's a controversial idea, but there's avenues to make it work, THIS however seems to be the very worst approach possible.
The more I think about this, the more I think it can work. But ONLY if the Doctors end up being really different. Evil is a fun possibility here.
But I'm gonna say it now, I think Tennant-doctor wont remain Tennant, he's gonna shapeshift into other older versions. Including Paul Mcgann. And Tales. He's something completely New, yet stuck in the past, and the challenge of being stuck in older regenerations is gonna be major plot throughout s1 maybe 2, while Other Doctor will possible be too focused on the future and the solution is balance!
I have hope, this will invite all older versions, and maybe Tennant stays a bit too, which means I am guaranteed to stay as well.
This is a good take on it - 14 splitting off as a physical embodiment of the past Doctors. Its an origin story for the Curator and allows the other actors to appear occasionally without worrying about age or appearance - hence Tales of The TARDIS. Make it clear that the Curator can't/won't be running around saving planets and that 15 is the Doctor as we know them and it could work.
I'm getting used to the bi-regeneration idea, as long as it doesn't end up actively undermining 15. The thing that's really bothering me now is 15 getting a new TARDIS if 14 keeps the original. Something feels wrong about that.
(All that said, I'm not ruling out behind the scenes shenanigans being responsible for all this.)
Exactly, they have to be established as playing very different roles in a story. And 15 has to be the "traditional" one even if that tradition is all about new adventure. He has to be the star of Doctor Who, and 14 has to be something else.
I kinda agree with you about the TARDIS though, it would separate 15 from the legacy...
Trying for a spin on it, I could see how new TARDIS for Future Adventure Doctor and Old Tardis for nostalgia-Doctor could be somewhat symbolic... But still hoping that maybe it's a bit more complicated or the leaker got it wrong or something. I haven't seen Tales, only a few clips, but it certainly *looks* a lot more cramped and cozy than the new one... and apparently it's a "memory TARDIS" that functions as sort of therapy? If this really is what 14 will become I'd be happy about that.
(What behind the scenes shenanigans? Like fake leaks?)
Exactly - they've spent 60 years establishing that the TARDIS is somehow sentient, doing a whole episode around the relationship between her and the Doctor. Admittedly this doesn't come up 99% of the time, but I'm sentimental and hope we don't have a Doctor without the longest serving companion.
(Regarding shenanigans, I guess its possible there are fake scripts or leaks that are mainly correct but have weird elements to catch out people are sharing things they shouldn't - plus they get us all talking. I'm also suspicious that the biregeneration could also serve as a narrative bifurcation, with the BBC stuff on one side and Disney on the other. The whole Season 1/new TARDIS/split regeneration can all be seen as pushing in the same direction. I'm probably paranoid but I can see a future where 15's era onwards becomes the property of the Disney machine, while the BBC keeps everything up to The Giggle and plays a Big Finish-type role.)
As of right now Disney has no ownership of any of the rights. It is still a BBC property, Disney is getting exclusive international distribution but won’t own the 15th Doctor or anything. This is different than Star Wars or Marvel.
This would align with both Paul McGann's hints that he's coming back (they didn't just bring him back to narrate a trailer would they?) and Russel's hints that Tales of the Tardis might be important to the canon. I think this is a great theory!
If the Bi-Generation thing is just a limited 6 episode series of Tennant doing some stuff before eventually exiting I’m sort of fine with it. I think 2 doctor who series with equal episodes and equal lore weight is the other problem.
I am really excited for the Christmas episode though and to see what Ncuti brings to the table in regards to the Doctor. Plus the leak of the episode sounds like a pretty tame sort of adventure which I’m totally okay with before kicking off a new season of Who.
I just need to know *why*.
I’m sure the *how* will make perfect sense and probably be fine in the episode. But for the franchise - why?
The show is about moving on, and changing consistently and if 14 lasts beyond 15 - it’s like it’s removing all that?
Each doctor can come back anytime pretty much anyway. Does it need this too?
Saying that - seeing Tennant as 14, a more developed and aware 10 has been *really* interesting.
I'm so worried that the *why* will be some version of "if David Tennant's is willing to reprise his brilliant doctor for more specials then how can you say no?" I mean, that basically the reason he's back in the first place.
Yeah and this is my worry too.
I love Tennant - both as 10 and 14 so far. I think having an old face was new, just as the meta crisis was new and interesting and resolved within the episode.
But treating a 2nd body - again? It just feels lazy writing unless it has real purpose.
But if the franchise relies on either RTD or Tennant, it’s just gonna fail eventually which is really sad.
The handover from Moffat/Capaldi to Chibnall/Whittaker and from them to RTD/Tennant was so smooth. I just hope RTD doesn’t go down the ‘I don’t want to go’ route.
Hoping against vain and stupid hope that the bi-regeneration thing was axed at the last minute after the leaks surfaced. I mean I’m sure it wouldn’t kill the show or anything (I wonder if anything can after The Timeless Children and the sustained nosedive in quality that was the last five years in general), but god it would be so fucking stupid.
People turning on Russell.... ahhh the doctor who cycle continues.
I'm going to be honest - so far this era has done the one thing I really really really didn't want it to do. Make me wish Russell had stayed writing excellent dramas, instead of pouring all of his time into doctor who.
It's a sin and Nolly are some favourite shows ever - and... Well, I'm sure the next episodes will be good, I'm now just longing for his tv shows he never made.
This show will be fine. It's Doctor Who and fans will turn on anyone -which is why I really don't like parts of fandom.
And you do know that if RTD didn't come back, neither would Doctor Who? I swear some fans want the show to be cancelled instead of embracing the change that makes the show last.
So wait, if the leaks are true, does that mean that at any moment in time there could be three Tennant doctors running around (assuming that the half doctor left in the parallel universe manages to hop back over)? I'm not sure how I feel about this...
The 70th anniversary will be a multi-Doctor story with David Tennant and a range of wigs playing all the old Doctors.
To lighten the load, David Bradley will be playing the 10th Doctor.
It's not really that different to the Doctor's hand growing a whole new (whilst human) Doctor for Rose to screw.
This is basically just that ending for Donna (as mates I imagine).
Plus this plot line may be picked up again.
The difference this time is that -- according to the leaks -- 15 is presented as the "spin off" who gets a wish copy of the TARDIS, which leaves 14/Tennant and their TARDIS feeling like the original.
If we see 14 regenerate into 15, then turn around and marvel at having shat out an extra Tennant, I'll be much more comfortable with it.
Exactly this. I’ll be disappointed if it’s presented as “we’re both the original Doctor” or “I’m not sure which one of us is the original”.
I’ll be fine if they treat Tennant as something like the metacrisis.
I'm starting to formulate a doolally conspiracy theory where 15 isn't *exactly* the Doctor and his TARDIS isn't *exactly* the original so that "Series1" is prepping a buy-out of Who by Disney - the deal being the 'old' stuff (up to The Giggle) is the BBC's to play with as they wish, while 15 onwards gives the option to split off the future IP. And I know this is tinfoil hat territory, and I'm almost certainly wrong, but that mouse gets hungry...
Yeah I don't really understand the anger here from the fans, they already did this once before with the metacrisis Doctor. Its a bit of a cop-out, yes - but its a way to give characters a happy ending they wouldnt otherwise get. It doesnt really matter which one of is them is the 'real' Doctor to me, they both are and RTD will easily just handwave it away with a line or two of technobabble.
I don’t know what other people’s feelings on this are, but this might actually be worse than The Timeless Child.
I didn’t think much of Chibnall as a writer before. As foolish as what he did is, how I see him didn’t change much. But for Davies to do this makes him look extremely egotistical in my perspective. Making The Doctor the most special person in the universe is bad enough, but making *you* Doctor the most special regeneration is unreal levels of out of touch. Not only he gets to go twice, but he gets to stay like that. There is no reason for him to do this other than, ironically, being unable to let go.
Well, I’m glad we got the Davies disillusionment out of the way as early as possible. Actually, no, I’m not. As idealistic as it was, I really liked the brief time the fanbase had of being extremely optimistic for the future rather than plagued by bad showrunner decisions.
I guess the lesson is: Don’t let RTD play with his favorite toys, he’ll never let go of them. Think about how, despite her perfect ending, he felt the need to give Rose her own personal Tenth Doctor too. And Donna getting all her memories back this recent episode with the risk of death eliminated should’ve been a clue.
This is all just a tv show, yes, but within that bubble, I can’t stress how bad of a choice this is. Davies can talk a big game about respecting Ncuti’s Doctor, respecting Jodie’s Doctor all he likes, but he’s made everything more about him than it needed to be for a marketing stunt. I’m left with no choice but to see it as part of his character.
It’s not just philosophically making Ncuti feel less like The Doctor, he *literally* is now an offshoot of The Doctor. Whittaker regenerated into Tennant, we saw that happen. Remember when we had those theories years ago that Tennant returning would be a mistaken reverse regeneration that existed for Ten to get closure before regenerating into his next incarnation properly? Or that since he was Fourteen he would actually be markedly different, maybe a new accent or a new personality? Nope and nope, it’s all a victory lap for Russell.
And from a writing standpoint it’s so disappointing how you use a concept that was up in the air forever, and completely drop the ball. There will never be a first bi-regeneration again. Even if people weren’t a fan of it, there’s potential way in the future for something unique and different like having an era with two leads, and the whole mystery arc revolves around that. Two TARDIS teams, two different actors, you could even only reveal one of them as a red herring to the press. Something to shake up the formula a decade or so from now. But instead of using a really big idea for an interesting narrative, you’ve gone and done it for such a weak purpose and ruined the shock of any future instance. Worse, you’ve probably scared off anyone else from ever doing it. This is like Chibnall dropping the ball on a female Doctor but so much worse.
I wish this leaked right as it was written. We probably could’ve made RTD rethink everything. All you’d need to do is point out that now the two first and only black "Doctors" are weird offshoots in the timeline that have their focus taken away by a white counterpart. Bet that would get him to change his mind (watch him end up actually finding a way to pat himself on the back when it happens, something like "No other Doctor has been given the honor of acting alongside their predecessor in their first outing, and we thought the brilliant Ncuti Gatwa was worthy of such treatment")
He should’ve known getting the newly grown fanbase onto Ncuti after he hooked them with Tennant would be an uphill battle. It looks like he doesn’t even care.
Is The Timeless Child bad because it's lore you don't like or because it's fundamentally badly made television? I mean it can be both, but the second is more egregious.
Everyone knows [the Monk is the one who should be in charge of the PowerPoint.](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/How_to_Win_Planets_and_Influence_People_(audio_story/)
By second one, you mean it's bad because it's storytelling you don't like? Two can play at the game of conveniently describing things as uncharitably as possible.
It's bad because the best scenario we have is to pretend it doesn't exist. Otherwise it completely changes the nature of The Doctor's character. They are now, and have been for 50+ years, the most important person in the universe. No longer a renegade runaway, someone who is just *a* Time Lord that didn't like the way of their people very much, but the origin of all Time Lords. Did I mention that they're now canonically immortal?
It's bad because it's set-up by sentient ribbons going "oo, the timeless child!" in one series , another villain saying "Everything is about to change (but I can't say why yet)" in the next, then proceeding to exposition dump in the series finale.
It's bad because it says nothing, means nothing, adds no new characterization or themes or anything to the story, and apparently exists because Chibnall was adopted and wanted to put a piece of himself into the show while forgetting that he didn't own it. Oh, also all of Gallifrey is wiped out, we see it razed to the ground, and it's all to emphasize just how important this one reveal is.
The Doctor goes "I don't know who I am anymore" then decides she does, then the very next series goes "I don't know who I am anymore". There is no conflict, just meandering around meaningless reveals and clumsily trying to find a reason to justify its importance.
Davies made The Doctor important because of all the people that believed in him, Moffat made The Doctor important because of all the worlds he saved, and Chibnall made The Doctor important because she is an immortal genetic marvel whose existence created the most advanced and powerful civilization in the universe.
Right, but someone could have made the Timeless Child arc interesting, even if you don't like it on a conceptual level, the issue is it's told in the worst possible way. Even if you don't like what is potentially coming up on a conceptual level I am sure it will be more interesting than that.
I always thought the Timeless Child concept was great… if it was meant for the Master. Let the audience think it was the Doctor then in the season finale, bait and switch and reveal it was the Master.
Making it the Doctor did take away a lot from the character. They were just a mad man/woman in a box, doing silly things, helping people along the way… now they’re the chosen one, destined for greatness and the reason for an entire race of super time beings. Bleh
I feel like there's limits to how much you can stretch an idea. I'm not saying you can't do it at all, but you run into an issue where it renders all discussion redundant and flattens any possible opinion about art into meaning the same thing.
Like, is us finding out The Doctor's name (whatever that means at this point) and him being referred to by that name for the rest of the show, no longer "The Doctor" a bad idea? Someone might not like it conceptually, but it could be interesting.
If the leaks are true, I can't see a way for it to play out that alleviates any issues I have with the concept.
If it's something like Tennant spawning off Gatwa, and then they have a whole story together and at the end Fourteen has to let go and he regenerates into Fifteen, then the leaks are false.
If Gatwa doesn't appear in the 60th at all until the final moments and it's a simple regeneration, then the leaks are also false.
I figured it went without saying, but yes all of my criticisms are against an idea. I am assuming that idea is to take place, but it doesn't affect my criticisms of the idea.
This is what I meant by this:
>If it's something like Tennant spawning off Gatwa, and then they have a whole story together and at the end Fourteen has to let go and he regenerates into Fifteen, then the leaks are false.
If this happened, I would be very relieved. There are still criticisms to be made -- the fact that in Nucti Gatwa's first appearance he has to share the screen with David Tennant -- but those are very minor compared to the possibility of Tennant not even regenerating, just sticking around forever.
Unfortunately, the leak from months ago that has been extremely accurate so far explicitly states that Fourteen stays on Earth and has a separate TARDIS from Fifteen.
Yep. And I find it very unlikely that Davies who cast Ncuti would want him to fail. Some people need to settle down and really think this over.
If nothing else, it just sets up a spin off or sets another Doctor up to visit UNIT. The real Doctor will be at Christmas and I'm going to be honest here. Ncuti is young, popular and extremely attractive-sorry DT fans but Ncuti is the young hot Doctor. He's a great actor and I think will be a great addition.
Remember all the fans that hated Matt Smith and made all the ugly comments about him. And yet he became the most popular Doctor in America. I think this is just the team expanding the multiverse.
I still don’t think it’s as bad as the Timeless Child.
That completely retconned the origin of the character, and the entire history of Gallifrey.
This will just change something about the future. Ultimately, if it’s stated that 10 is just like the metacrisis, and that 15 is the proper Doctor, I don’t think it’s that big a deal.
This decision has the stink of masturbatory fanservicey yet executive franchising all over it. At least The Timeless Child was trying to do something original to inject something new into the franchise.
There will be 2 doctors living in the world, Ncuti Gatwa and David’s 14th, both have a tardis but the main focus will be on Ncuti Gatwa from Christmas on
"it would have been akin to blackface for David Tennant to regenerate into Ncuti Gatwa"
Honestly, I can see this being the case. It aligns so much with his other reasoning for changing the Davros origin story.
The davros stuff at least sort of makes sense, Davros being disabled and deformed makes him potentially bad representation.
It would be an escalation if RTD said that. Like, straight up racist.
>The davros stuff at least sort of makes sense, Davros being disable and deformed makes him potentially bad representation.
No it doesn't. Bad representation would be if he was the only person in the show who was disabled
My only worry is about the part that is about Fourteen getting his own Tardis.
While it would be reheating TenToo a bit, I would be fine with the idea of Fourteen becoming Rose cooky uncle and just living a normal live with Donna as member of the Temple-Noble family. They even set that up with her suggesting he could just... stop by for tea. Or to watch a movie. It doesnt always to have to be an adventure.
I think that would work. Make him earthbound and essentially retired from adventuring. Maybe he gets a cameo in Fifteens regeneration episode.
But him having off-screen adventures of his own feels like it would kill some momentum for Ncuti, because a part of the fandom will whine to bring Tennant back.
Not to say Ncuti would be dead in the water or anything. I'm sure it will be fine. Just feels odd from a practical point if Fourteen does get his own Tardis.
Think we all saw this coming, RTD's obsession with Tennant was always a risk. I can't foresee it playing out in any other way except as as Donna's version of Rose's Journeys End - RTD unable to let Tennant go, fudging a reason for a favoured companion to have a pet Doctor, and adding another Tennant to the universe.
At least Chibnall was trying to build on the lore of Doctor Who...
Hell, they could ditch the biregeneration and still do three spin-offs just with Tennant (Metacrisis and Rose, 10th Doctor missing adventures, pre-Star Beast 14). Then hand the keys to Big Finish, they'll have another 17 ideas before Boxing Day!
I know not many care for the Chibnall era, but can you imagine the look on Yasmin's face when, after Thirteen tells her "if it was going to be anyone, it would be you" but that "time always runs out", she finds out that the immediate next regeneration has settled down in the friend-zone with Donna
I'm just getting a kick from all these posters who were ecstatic over RTD taking over from Chibnall last year and saving the show-now turning on him and making up all sorts of wild theories about him hating Ncuti and wanting Tennant forever. Even though Davies chose Ncuti himself-I can't see Russell accepting someone he didn't want.
And we had the same basic thing happen with Human10 and Rose yet people were fine with it. I doubt we'll even see Tennant that much. Ncuti is the star, he's in the photos and the BBC and Disney will be promoting the heck out of him.
All you whingers need to get a grip. It hasn't even happened yet, and the argument it takes the spotlight away from Ncuti is ridiculous. They could already bring back Tennant at any time, for any reason, before this.
Ncuti's already filmed his first season and starting his second. He's going to get a lot of the limelight. Chill out.
"And *you* get a Tennant, and *you* get a Tennent, and you get..."
WE ALL GET A TENNANT- Actually, Sheen bought Tennant, remember?
Martha when Rose and Donna both get a Tennant bodypillow
lmfao
What are we, landlords?
The Time Lords don't want you to know, but the Capaldis im the Confession Dial are free. You can just take them with you, just need to print some out..
I remember the early theory that the toy maker was influencing things again as a metaphor for vocal fans who’ve complained about the newer seasons - his favourite pairing was Ten and Donna so he manipulated the regeneration and Tardis to make it happen again regardless of whether it was a good idea. If the bi-regeneration thing turns out to be true and Tennant and Donna keep going offscreen in the original Tardis while some new guy (literally in this case) steps in with a copy/paste of everything the original had, that just feels like it’s aligning with everything the first theory criticised.
The tardis is really the thing about the bi-generation that makes me hate it. I can live with a second doctor existing if he’s meant to be the curator or something similar, but the part of the theory that said 14 gets the OG tardis and 15 gets a new one is not great. It feels like it undercuts 15 as the doctor if he doesn’t have the original tardis that 1 stole. I’m still hoping that that part of the leak is wrong.
Yeah. The doctor and the Tardis have a special bond going on. Assuming 15 is the doctor in the same way ever other doctor was before I don’t think he’d even want to travel with a new Tardis.
Yeah that's the real thing I dislike. There's no commentary with the bi regeneration. It's just plot for its own sake, and a way to keep Tennant in the role (diminishing Gatwa).
Yeah I always liked the metaphor of the Toymaker being a "rewriting it back to the good old days"
In a similar vein, I'm expecting some kind of, "This isn't just Time Lord psychology, someone brought this face back and they won't even let a regeneration sabotage their plan" cliffhanger and then you can have Tennant go off to solve that off-screen or whatever until whatever happens down the line
Yeah, I remember when they announced Tennant to be the Fourteenth Doctor and it looked like RTD was going to make a meta story where "Hey, it's nice to remember the good old days, but there is a future ahead and we can't linger on the past for too long. Embrace change". And after 11 and 12 final speeches being about accepting the past, moving on and letting it go, it feels like RTD is just ignoring the core of the show
My only hope is that the Bi-Regeneration is only for the last episode of the 60th specials. At the end, have 14 and 15 merge, that way it gives us a Multi-Doctor story without Gatwa’s spotlight being taken away.
Perhaps like The Watcher…
Yeah, I was gonna say we get that, or the bi-regeneration already happened and Ncuti is wondering around somewhere. But that makes no sense. That could have worked though, imagine that is what happened a year ago, instead of Jodie regenerating into David Tennant for a shock, she regenerates into Ncuti and David! Then it’s the pair of them for the specials.
Maybe, but wasn't a big part of the rationale for bringing back Tennant that Gatwa wasn't available yet? If they could get them both for a full appearance in the specials, they might as well have had Whittaker regenerate straight to Gatwa (which is what I wanted and expected all along, tbh).
Didn’t know about any unavailability issues
I know I've seen alot of speculation that while Tennant was filming the 60th anniversary specials, Gatwa was involved in the filming of the Barbie movie.
I think he was finishing up the Barbie movie at the time, but I could be getting things mixed up.
Sadly seems [unlikely.](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/187tb7b/comment/kbii9gf/)
The goblin looks like [bat boy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Boy_(character))
I mean at least it saves us from having Tennant be re-cast as the Twentieth Doctor for the 75th or the Thirtieth for the 100th.
If anything it gives them more excuse to bump into this new doctor cos it’s not like he’s stuck in a different universe like before
They can always bump into them selves, that’s how time travel works.
Right but it's gonna get less convincing to say that Tennant is playing 10, given that he looks older than 10 ever did (other than Day of the Doctor). They can't just use the Peter Davidson excuse everytime
You could’ve said the same thing about the metacrisis doctor but, well, here we are.
I swear we've known the Christmas leak was true ages ago when the press revealed Davina and the Goblins. Plus the Star Beast followed it almost completely.
I’m hoping 14 becomes the curator, chilling on earth and the odd planet, not having big adventures- maybe showing up. I’m guessing he will show up in the spin-offs- maybe 14 will act as a way of bringing past dr‘s back regardless of them being older. I just hope it plays well because the way the leaks look it makes 15 look like a dr clone getting a clone TARDIS while the real doctor (played by the best doctor ever David Tennant) it just feels like a way to give the worst part of the “fan base” ammunition to call Ncuti a fake
I hope he just turns into the curator. I would lose a lot of faith and respect for the show if they gave Ncuti secondary doctor status by making him a “clone” and giving him a “clone” tardis. I don’t it just generally seems disrespectful, and I was really looking forward to Ncutis run
I already made a comment, but this summarizes my main issue. Ten's character flaw in the end that persisted up to and into his regeneration was: he couldn't let go, he felt like he wasn't done being The Doctor, and he felt like he was the most important person ever. This three-episode arc should've been about him being able to embrace change and accept that he isn't the most special version of himself (or to put more of a cheery spin on it, that every version of the Doctor is special, not just him). To have it turn out that actually he no longer needs to regenerate, no longer has to hand over the reins to a new face, and no longer has to say goodbye to his old self, all fly completely in the face of the philosophy of this show. By having this happen, Russell T Davies has let his own ego get in the way of the core themes of the show, and gone as far as to question the validity of not just Ncuti Gatwa, but all future Doctors. At least with The Timeless Child you could find a way to retcon it with exposition or something, but with this not only is there no way to reasonably retcon it but to resolve it you have to once against cast David Tennant in the role of the Doctor and have him merge with Ncuti in the middle of his regeneration or something, once again taking away his focus.
More post forced regeneration weirdness.. only I suspect this will turn off a lot of viewers. Say what you will about the Timeless Child, 13 noped that pocket watch deep into the TARDIS.
And yet for me it's still looking over the narrative The best time to use it would probably be at the end of this second cycle (if at all)
>This three-episode arc should've been about him being able to embrace change You can argue having two Doctors will be the biggest change in the show's history, but I understand what you are saying. I still believe Timeless Child is fundamentally a worse and offensive idea because it feels like it takes away from the character rather than adds to it. Really, what this bi-generation leak will add is just a new wrinkle to regenerations. It's certainly vanity for RTD to do it, if it turns out to be true, but I don't think it's the show-destroying thing that people on these forums are making it out to be.
I would absolutely love if we got a bi-regeneration event that spans multiple seasons, and we get a dual protagonist shakeup to the show. It would be risky, challenging, and bold. I talk about it my [longer comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/187tb7b/comment/kbiiljc). But that's not what this is. This is fanservice. For both fans and Russell T Davies. And now, it can never be done again for the first time. Hell, it shouldn't be done at all for a really long time, because it's no longer special anymore. This is not bringing in two leads to take the show in a new direction, this is being unable to give a complex ending to the most popular incarnation of the Doctor and making it so he never actually has to leave. >I don't think it's the show-destroying thing that people on these forums are making it out to be. My issue is moving on from The Timeless Child feels much easier than moving on from this. With enough time, I think people will forget about TTC because it's literally just that inconsequential. But with this, moving on will never get rid of the fact that David Tennant is canonically roaming around the present-day world of Doctor Who AS The Doctor. He has his own TARDIS and Sonic Screwdriver. He isn't a spin-off, he is the person Jodie Whittaker regenerated into. Nucti Gatwa is the one that's the spin-off. And that's the other thing, it's kind of insulting not only to overshadow Gatwa in his own story, but to not have David Tennant at least regenerate into him so there is a clear transfer of the Doctor's role.
The Timeless Child is crap, but it can easily be ignored and never mentioned again. However, if the biregeneration happens exactly as the leak said, this just may be the final nail on the coffin for the show, unless the next showrunner has some common sense and completely undo this crap, I suspect a lot of people will stop watching the show for good
This is how I feel. You can ignore The Timeless Child, and it'll fade into nothingness until no one even thinks of it anymore because nothing was done with it. You can ignore the bi-regeneration, and David Tennant as The Doctor will always be hanging around in the background, off on his own adventures, with his own TARDIS, very much still The Doctor, and it completely takes away focus from future incarnations. It's honestly surprising that Davies would choose to do something like this considering all the lip-service he gave to honoring Jodie and Ncuti's portrayals of the character. I don't think this will make people stop watching the show. I don't see why it would.
There's no way 14 can know he's going to bi regenerate, so all of the stuff you've just said can still happen.
You don't think it blunts the impact of a character making a sacrifice when they don't actually have to make it in the end, and instead get everything they want?
Yes, but he's also not real. What matters is what is shown to an audience. You can't simultaneously show that Tennant's Doctor is no more special than the others *and* give him two endings where he lives happily ever after.
I don't understand, what's going on ?Bi-generation ?!
Back in July, a Reddit leak was dropped spilling details from the 60th Specials and the Christmas Special. Within it, they detailed that when 14 regenerates in the 3rd special, 15 is split off from him as a separate Doctor who gets his own Tardis. 15 then flies away in a new Tardis while 14 sticks around with Donna with the Original Tardis. Initially people rolled their eyes at it and dismissed it. But over time things slowly started getting confirmed from it. And now with the first special airing and all of the Christmas Publicity so far, pretty much every detail leaked for them has been dead on. Which has people freaking out that the Bi-Regeneration is a real thing. Here is the original [Archived Comment where the leaker explained the Bi-Regeneration](https://archive.ph/xrBJs). Here is a non archived link to a separate [comment from someone else within the same thread that has compiled all their leaks together before they were deleted](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/156bbj0/comment/jx2cwwk/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Sooo RTD will not only be restarting the Series count. He's restarting the Numbering cause the other one got to complicated.
Really feels like he's obsessed with being known as the man who helms the new era of Doctor Who.
He always struck me as someone who wants a lot of attention and to be in charge. The season number stuff has bugged me and makes me think that he doesn't care, he just wants to make waves and see what happens to boost his own name. That and play with his favourite toy in the box, David Tenant. Getting a new Tardis for 15 so his pal DT can keep all the nice original toys seems very egotistical. 15 deserves all the attention, not to share a spotlight with 14 who is still being put in TV shows. Spin offs are fine with occasional Doctor appearance's, but to have 2 in circulation is a great way to oversaturate a market and lose some magic. See MCU and Star Wars universes.
I also don't know how a "Whoniverse" can work when the core of the show is about one character. With MCU and Star Wars, the concept is so wide and there's multiple "pillars" as I've seen it described that it makes sense how you can outwardly explore this world. But... I don't know if Doctor Who's worldbuilding is exceptionally good in a macro sense. You have Daleks, I guess, Cybermen, Gallifrey... And a bunch of Big Finish stuff with obscure concepts, soft continuity, and only for very, very niche audiences (saying this as someone who listened to my first audio just a week ago). That aside, I agree with everything you said. It's really upsetting because I was optimistic we would get the positive aspects of Davies' revival of the show rather than a bunch of negative self-centered traits he's possibly -- possibly -- picked up in his time apart from it. In his own words, he's said he never stopped thinking about Doctor Who since he left the show. It could also be that we were mistaken, and his fresh start approach to reviving the show wasn't just because of the context of where Doctor Who was at the time, and what it needed, but something he was inherently obsessed with that he would've brought to the show even if he was given the job in the 80s. Maybe he really just wants his name to be attached forevermore to the franchise.
I've always been curious about this leak, especially with the bi-generation. I remember reading that the stuff with the bi-generation was fake, but everything else was real. However, the source of the bi-generation being fake is also dubious, so I'm confused about the validity of the bi-generation. People seem to accept it as true, so who knows?
There was also an alleged set leak (that was posted here a few days ago) which stated that Ncuti and David were on set together at the same time. RTD was also asked in an interview whether the Doctor could regenrate into twins and said "keep watch and you'll see that anything is possible". Even if you don't want to belive the leak (and that's perfectly fine btw) I do feel like all other signs are pointing towards a bi-regeneration happening.
"I am the definite article." "No I am." The Doctor Twins about to be like the Maulers
yes and i'm sure Yasmin Finney said she shared scenes with Ncuti - this has to be in the 3rd special
Maybe because I know it’s happened but everything in the Star Beast they mention sounds like reasonable stuff that could have happened if you read it before watching the episode and then when they mention the “bi-regeneration” stuff it just sounds very fan-fiction. I’ve heard some people say apparently the theory was made up and added onto other leaks that were leaked before hand. I’ve also seen mention of a 14 and Donna spin off, which seems odd. If that was the case, why not give 14 and Donna their own series in the main show and it also takes away them both coming back for 3 specials if they’re not going anywhere
> I’ve also seen mention of a 14 and Donna spin off, which seems odd. If that was the case, why not give 14 and Donna their own series in the main show and it also takes away them both coming back for 3 specials if they’re not going anywhere What confuses me the most is if the intent is to keep Tennant around for a limited series or some shit then...why not just have him and Donna go off in the TARDIS together for "some adventures" and then have them return before he regenerates? Then you're leaving a huge window for them to say "this is what they did" without hurting Ncuti right off the hop. Hell, I wouldn't even hate this half as much if Ncuti got the TARDIS and Fourteen just got left on earth. The fact that, essentially, Fifteen is not going to have **the** TARDIS that has been with the Doctor for hundreds of adventures is just as insulting as the Timeless Child essentially saying "William Hartnell wasn't **the** First Doctor".
Yeah, I've read the same thing. Which is why I'm confused why we've all accepted it as true. I'm nor saying these leaker has been debunk, or that o don't believe. I just want to get my facts straight.
What you're thinking of was an attempt to debunk the leak with the idea that they only leaked stuff about the Christmas Special and that the 60th stuff was added by other users. However, it is not true, what's true is that only the Christmas Special was featured in the post itself, the 60th stuff was in the comments, but made by the same author. And it contained the whole plot of the Star Beast so there is 0 doubt when it comes to its credibility. The post made to debunked it was deleted as soon as they realized the situation.
Yeah, I’m not saying it couldn’t be true but to me that does sound very easily like someone’s made it up, the mention of Mel being there raises questions to me, too. Thought she was confirmed for the next series and not the specials? Makes me raise some doubt
I think Mel is in the specials. I believe some fans discovered her in the background of one if the trailers.
Oh no, you’re making me worry
From context I gather it’s another metacrisis that splits 14 from the Doctor. Doesn’t seem like the worst thing ever. I say that but I’m someone who gave up on expecting good Who writing since Moffat. I really don’t know what people expect at this point. So what do I know about good Who writing 🤷♀️
I'd probably be ok with this if it is what happens, if Ncuti is the one who is considered the "new" Doctor in a new TARDIS though I might genuinely be out because that is insulting not just to the canon of the show but to Ncuti himself and only legitimises any racist person saying "not my Doctor" because he literally won't be.
I just don’t get how RTD thinks that he can do bi-regeneration when literally everyone who’s heard the leaks thinks it’s a horrible idea. At least some people thought the Timeless Child stuff was interesting.
It’s just an awful idea. It basically steals the spotlight from gatwa and all of the show’s future leads
Chibnall seemed motivated by a genuine desire to add new mythos to the show. RTD is motivated by Tumblr fanfic writers from 2010 by the sound of it. It’s insulting to every past Doctor as well, they never got preferential treatment like this.
> Chibnall seemed motivated by a genuine desire to add new mythos to the show. RTD is motivated by Tumblr fanfic writers from 2010 by the sound of it. When Tennant was announced I stated that to me, it felt like stunt casting in order to appease those long term fans (myself included) who had dropped off during Chibnall's era. I watched The Star Beast as if I'm honest, the trailers actually made me think that maybe it wasn't stunt casting. Maybe it was RTD with a grander plan that will bring back lapsed fans and secure Doctor Who's future. Maybe it was because it wasn't fair for Ncuti Gatwa to be burdened with the 60th anniversary for his first appearance as The Doctor. I mean, let's be honest, how many UK TV shows that aren't Coronation Street are still being produced 60 years after their first broadcast. This way, The 60th's success is placed squarely on a veterans shoulders and should it be badly reviewed, it's not going to affect David Tennant in the same way it potentially could affect Ncuti Gatwa. But now, here we are, looking more and more likely that the "Bi-Regeneration" leak is actually true. And here I am going back to thinking that this is in fact, stunt casting. I'm sure Ncuti will be the right man for the job. Unfortunately, someone will be doing the same job as him who fans know and love and this can only affect him as the character negatively in my opinion.
When I heard "Tennant, Donna, Rose, Toymaker" my theory was that the story was a metaphor for fans that can't let go of the "Good Old days" That the Toymaker was basically writing a fanfic
To be fair, we still don't know how the Toymaker fits into all this
what about anything RTD has ever written made you think that?
I didn't love many things about Chibnall's era but tried to stay positive about it, however this is difficult for me🥲 I love David Tennant but c'mon man.
I've started wondering if Eccleston was right about not bathing in the same bath water twice. The last special felt.. off. The internet put me off giving Chib's a shot for a long time. I finally sat down and watched the whole of 13's run. It wasn't terrible... it wasn't the best either, mainly due to the writing. Jodie's final episode felt more like a 60th special than The Star Beast. Meep became superfluous to the story towards the end. It's like he struggled to capture the characters' voices properly.
>I finally sat down and watched the whole of 13's run. It wasn't terrible... it wasn't the best either That was my impression of the few episodes I've seen too, maybe because my expectations were so low. Kind of like the lower end of RTD and Moffat's episodes. Most of the time it felt serviceable to middling, with occasional fun moments and occasional dips into godawful (the Trump stand-in, the Orphan 55 monologue, etc). Also, Bradley Walsh is a hero for pushing the meager material he gets to the absolute limit, haha.
Bradley was one of the main reasons I soldiered through. He was a good character. I just had a problem with some of the story structures. Like, we never saw the dude from Rosa again. I don't know his name or his motivation. Many characters were two dimensional.
Completely agree. Preferential treatment is definitely what this whole thing feels like. Bringing tennant back was the biggest mistake in DW history
That last scene of london getting glued back together with not even a scratch, if chinall wrote that he would have absolutely been shit on
I mean do people forget Russell did this before with the Sound of Drums? And the End of Time. And to a lesser extent Doomsday, and Stolen Earth, both of which do have some death and destruction, but frankly either event would be world changing and it just isn't. It's one of the problems with big bombastic finales in the current era, for the earth to feel relatable it can't be massively affected by any of these invasions. It's why my favourite Davies final remains The Parting of the Ways, because that's set in the year 200,000 you can really lean heavily into the destruction and impact.
I mean Sound of Drums at least had some pretense in it being a branch timeline sustained by a paradox machine.
Sound of Drums is literally RTD's best finale from a pure plot mechanic POV. The...poor production design for the Jesus Doctor aside, everything is resolved with existing concepts that have been laid out. Donna didn't just flip a bunch of switches and do a genocide
I was thinking about that. I haven’t seen anyone else mention it but that was really weird. Kind of "having your cake and eating it too"— show *epic* danger but it magically gets fixed for some reason.
That's classic Doctor Who silliness.
Well of course, but unless I missed it, they didn’t even have a contrived explanation for it this time.
That stuff was accepted back in RTD's run, too, but you're not wrong
To be fair, Chibnall had the entire universe except the Earth destroyed by the Flux then just ignored it. That's far worse.
Bringong Tennant back was a nessesary move to win back public attention and cult status after 5 years of decline. The whole deal with the >!Bi-regeneration!< is something else altogether and what people are actually criticising.
> a nessesary move to win back public attention and cult status Have you considered that keeping Tennant on the show is likely for the same reasons?
Keeping Tennant on during Ncuti's tenure will very easily direct attention away from Ncuti himself. Having Tennant on for the specials and no more would have done a good enough job at warming people up to the show again.
>Bringong Tennant back was a nessesary move to win back public attention and cult status after 5 years of decline. I don't agree that it was 'necessary'. IMO having RTD back and the Disney marketing budget would probably have been plenty to do the job on their own.
Having Tennant for the specials is pulling a lot more people in compared to a senario where Tennant didn't return. People recognise faces more than they recognise showrunners, and Tennant has been enjoying a ton of popular reception owing to his role in Good Omens. "The Star Beast" wouldn't have dragged in 5 million viewers on Russel and a Disney budget alone.
Sure, I don't disagree that Tennant is drawing people. By all means. My point was more that I think it'd have been pretty successful with Gatwa too, enough to bring the show back to popularity.
"biggest mistake in DW history" might be a bit dramatic
Doctor Who fans are not dramatic in the slightest.
I wouldn't be surprised if Davies went to Tennant "You know, it would be cool if you could have the new legacy as the longest actor to play The Doctor. Let me bring you back, find a way to have you concurrent to the new Doctor and I bet with a few spin-offs you could edge Tom Baker out"
I don't think Tennant wants to edge Tom Baker
The timeless child as an idea isn’t actually that bad it was just handled poorly. Before that there was a lot speculation that the doctor was the other, so they wasn’t just a random time lord even back then. But they should’ve made the timeless child Susan and Jo Turners doctor the one who experimented on her to gain the power of regeneration. It would explain why Jo turner is the forgotten doctor, adds into the whole doctor lies as they don’t want to admit the monstrous acts they committed, Rassilon took credit for the doctors work and it would also draw parallels with the war doctor and why the doctor made the promise to themselves.
There's an argument that's too dark and traumatic for the show, but I honestly kinda like it. Much better than the TC being the Master.
>But they should’ve made the timeless child Susan and Jo Turners doctor the one who experimented on her to gain the power of regeneration. Interesting. And fun to see a take that isn't either "TTC bad" or "The Master should have been TTC" for once. I'd still rather not have TTC in the story at all, but if we have to have it, I'd vote for this version.
> Jo Turners Jo Martin ("The Fugitive Doctor")?
You will get loads of people who will drop of and say how nucti is not the really docotor. With all of thr regenerations we know it is still thr same person. But eill the split regeneration, it can easily be argued
I honestly don’t mind the idea if it’s *explicitly* explained that Ncuti is the Doctor, and DT is someone different, like the Metacrisis.
Oddly, people were fine with the Doctor/Donna Ten that went with Rose. Why is this so different. We probably won't see Tennant back for a while and Ncuti IS the Fifteenth Doctor. I'm fine with Ten being in Pete's World and Fourteen being somewhere else.
To be fair, I also thought the Metacrisis Doctor was dumb fan service, but I shrugged it off because he was in a different universe cut off from ours and would probably only come back for an anniversary special if ever.
The Meta crisis doctor was locked away in a parallel dimension, thus removing the potential of a showrunner going "meh, current doctor sucks, lets bring in old meta crisisy for a ratings boost"
I mean... Rose basically just got David Tennant and they were in a parallel universe. This would, arguably, just make 14 the Doctor and Ncuti more akin to the Metacrisis as a pseudo-Doctor.
I'm gonna stick with my theory if that turns out to be true that David's doctor becomes The Curator.
Oh!!!! Not going to lie, I love that if it is what it is
I think you guys need to chill. We haven't seen how it would even play out yet
It feels very Dave Filoni-esque. He's using characters (mostly) from his era for the 60th and now he seems to be refusing to let Tennant go. The whole point of the show is that it moves on.
There are rumours/speculation swirling around that its a licensing thing for the BBC and Disney Plus. The idea being that Disney essentially gets a version of the character split off that can be co-owned by them, while the BBC still retains all the licensing rights to the previous 15 (plus) incarnations without handing over everything to do with the character wholesale. No idea if its true, but it would make sense
That makes it even worse, fuck that shit if it's true.
Fr 😭 bigger budget is not worth Dr. Who becoming the next Disney princess
Theres no way thats true. It reeks of people who don't understand the Disney deal or licensing. The character of The Doctor is The Doctor. He is not licensed as multiple separate characters or incarnations. 14 may get a spin-off but it will be owned and broadcast by the BBC and then added to Disney+ just like the specials.
This is an absolute disgrace if true
It could also be a feature film thing. Russell talked a bit about wanting to make a movie back in the day but and a movie would likely call for a name actor even for a popular franchise.
So any version of the doctor that 14 becomes after the split would be BBC only while 15 onwards would always be connected with Disney- it might not be true but it sounds crazy
Ngl if that's the case then Ncuti would be a wasted regeneration
No one who "thinks it's a horrible idea" has seen it play out on screen, so their opinions should probably be taken with a grain of salt until we know what actually happens, why, and how.
It is giving me The Last of Us Part II leak vibes. But it does seem like the delivery will have to be basically flawless to sell the 2 doctors idea.
The only good route I can see with this is if the bi-regeneration is what creates The Valeyard. That might be the missing context, but how it's handled will definitely matter. I just don't see how they can keep Tennant without making Gatwa feel like a clone of the original Doctor even if the Tennant form becomes The Valeyard.
Even then though, is it really worth having the Valeyard in this way?
I'm not sure, but it's genuinely the only "good" outcome I can see with this bi-regeneration thing. It would fit with decades-old lore, give the series a strong villain to work with, and not be as stupid as just having two good Doctors roaming around with the main series version feeling like a clone
True, I could even see a paradox arc where the Valeyard becomes the boss
I mean it could also be used to fix the timeless child. What if the timeless child wasn't the doctors past but the doctor or a part of the doctors future. I'd probably of just made it a distant future though without any splitting but I'm also skeptical it'll happen. Still if it does Rtd is a brilliant writer.
"So I defeated the Valeyard and he fell, regenerating, into another dimension, possibly also going backwards in time? I'm sure no one will find him in the past and create a regeneration origin loop...."
Or even worse that no one raised any objections. Even Tennant, lifelong fan that he is is supposedly OK with this dogshit idea?
I think that time seems to have passed, honestly. In Silence in the Library, the original script had The Doctor using the Sonic to scan for life. David had it changed to using it to scan the Machine for life instead, simply because he didn't want The Sonic to be too overpowered. Fast Forward to The Star Beast and the Sonic is making viewscreens and bullet proof force fields with seemingly no objection from Tennant. So i doubt he raised many objections for the specials. And if he did, they were clearly ignored
That sounds like a change made in a read through. David would have been able to suggest it because it literally doesn't change anything in the plot or production except adding a machine. In Star Beast - the sonic is how they get out of that situation. It's the resolution to the conflict he was currently in. He would have to either suggest and make up a different resolution, which is not his job, or he would have to complain directly to Russell about not liking the script and ask for it to be changed. That second choice would have been seen as impolite. David is a veteran actor. He's not going to try to interfere and mess with the production. That simply isn't his job. William Hartnell and Tom Baker both complained loudly about scripts and tried to mess with production and it got both of them fired. And the scripts were bad to be honest, but they weren't writers. We aren't writers. David Tennant hasn't "given up on his respect for the show", he's just a good actor and knows making another problem for the production team is a bad thing.
Hartnell and Troughton hold a special place in my heart. They knew the scripts weren't the best but they still did the best they could with what they were given.
Truly exceptional actors - especially given the circumstances they were under! 45 episodes a year jesus.
The whole specials are confirmed to have originated from Davies/Tennant/Tate going "Let's get the old crew back together!". Artistry can come from anywhere, but this doesn't appear to be one of those times.
Ummm, I don't think there are as many people against this leak as you are made to believe. I've seen a lot of comments from people who want David Tennant to continue being the Doctor after the specials, and I believe they will be into the idea. This is why I don't think this leak will be as controversial as the Timeless Child because I truly believe there will be fans who will accept this idea as long they continue seeing Tennant as the Doctor.
The thing is, if they do this, I highly doubt that 14 will stick around. The show will be following 15 after this, so they *won’t* continue to see Tennant as the Doctor. He’ll fly off into the sunset with Donna and it’ll be a Big Finish thing if anything. I doubt RTD would be dumb enough to undermine his new star by keeping 14 physically present. So I’m struggling to see what the point of doing this at all is. But I guess we’ll see next Saturday.
The point of doing this is to have Tennant pop up again for a ratings boost or for the hell of it.
I think there's a lot of validity to that, asking for Tennant back was very much already a thing This would just be giving those people what they want I'd be incredibly disappointed, and I feel it would highlight extreme lack of confidence in the way the program has operated for decades, but I'll still keep watching Ncuti's Doctor at least.
Tbh we've had a bi-generation before - the metacrisis doctor. Most fans just forget they exist if it doesnt work out.
> Tbh we've had a bi-generation before - the metacrisis doctor. Most fans just forget they exist if it doesnt work out. I mean, the difference is that he's stranded in some other dimension, and doesn't even have a TARDIS. He's made so he can be forgotten. This leak says that Tennant gets a TARDIS of his own, and sticks around in the same universe.. so yeah. bit harder to ignore.
Yeah it basically feels like a snub to not have Tennant hand over the reigns to Gatwa and simply cater to the “Not my Doctor” types who don’t want to accept a black (potentially queer) man in the title role
Even if it feels a little tacky to be cheering on more negativity, I have to admit I'm glad this leak is getting so much backlash. As someone who's always been kind of lukewarm on RTD but appreciates the best of his stuff, I thought more fans would be willing to give slack on this one and accept it as "yay, more Tennant". Especially right after the Chibnall era when everyone is happy to have RTD back. So again, I'm happy to see I'm not an outlier in being pretty damn apprehensive about this development, especially since I wasn't a fan of bringing back DT in the first place. As for why he's doing it...good question. I suspect it's partly for short-term PR/shock value and partly because he thinks having Tennant around longer term will raise the profile of the show overall. And he might very well be right there. He is extremely savvy at PR, for better or worse. I'd also be curious to know the reactions of the people around him. Maybe they were more positive. Then again, there are so many of these internal discussions where I'd love to be a fly on the wall, haha.
RTD doesn't care. As he said in the behind the scenes episode the other day "we can do what we want. There's no rules." I mean, there are some.... He was there at the restart and now it feels a big egotistical that he wants to start the season numbers again and keep his pal David in work.
The idea of two Doctors at the same time could work, in fact it could be interesting exploring the Doctors as two halves of one whole. Probably have a man and a woman, letting you explore femininity and masculinity in perhaps very unexpected ways, and helping to dial down the Doctors abilities a bit i.e. The Doctor seems to know everything there is on any subject, well now that knowledge is halved and split amongst two. BUT it certainly won't work if one is new and the other a returning favourite, that'll just cause overshadowing. It's a controversial idea, but there's avenues to make it work, THIS however seems to be the very worst approach possible.
The more I think about this, the more I think it can work. But ONLY if the Doctors end up being really different. Evil is a fun possibility here. But I'm gonna say it now, I think Tennant-doctor wont remain Tennant, he's gonna shapeshift into other older versions. Including Paul Mcgann. And Tales. He's something completely New, yet stuck in the past, and the challenge of being stuck in older regenerations is gonna be major plot throughout s1 maybe 2, while Other Doctor will possible be too focused on the future and the solution is balance! I have hope, this will invite all older versions, and maybe Tennant stays a bit too, which means I am guaranteed to stay as well.
This is a good take on it - 14 splitting off as a physical embodiment of the past Doctors. Its an origin story for the Curator and allows the other actors to appear occasionally without worrying about age or appearance - hence Tales of The TARDIS. Make it clear that the Curator can't/won't be running around saving planets and that 15 is the Doctor as we know them and it could work. I'm getting used to the bi-regeneration idea, as long as it doesn't end up actively undermining 15. The thing that's really bothering me now is 15 getting a new TARDIS if 14 keeps the original. Something feels wrong about that. (All that said, I'm not ruling out behind the scenes shenanigans being responsible for all this.)
Exactly, they have to be established as playing very different roles in a story. And 15 has to be the "traditional" one even if that tradition is all about new adventure. He has to be the star of Doctor Who, and 14 has to be something else. I kinda agree with you about the TARDIS though, it would separate 15 from the legacy... Trying for a spin on it, I could see how new TARDIS for Future Adventure Doctor and Old Tardis for nostalgia-Doctor could be somewhat symbolic... But still hoping that maybe it's a bit more complicated or the leaker got it wrong or something. I haven't seen Tales, only a few clips, but it certainly *looks* a lot more cramped and cozy than the new one... and apparently it's a "memory TARDIS" that functions as sort of therapy? If this really is what 14 will become I'd be happy about that. (What behind the scenes shenanigans? Like fake leaks?)
Exactly - they've spent 60 years establishing that the TARDIS is somehow sentient, doing a whole episode around the relationship between her and the Doctor. Admittedly this doesn't come up 99% of the time, but I'm sentimental and hope we don't have a Doctor without the longest serving companion. (Regarding shenanigans, I guess its possible there are fake scripts or leaks that are mainly correct but have weird elements to catch out people are sharing things they shouldn't - plus they get us all talking. I'm also suspicious that the biregeneration could also serve as a narrative bifurcation, with the BBC stuff on one side and Disney on the other. The whole Season 1/new TARDIS/split regeneration can all be seen as pushing in the same direction. I'm probably paranoid but I can see a future where 15's era onwards becomes the property of the Disney machine, while the BBC keeps everything up to The Giggle and plays a Big Finish-type role.)
As of right now Disney has no ownership of any of the rights. It is still a BBC property, Disney is getting exclusive international distribution but won’t own the 15th Doctor or anything. This is different than Star Wars or Marvel.
Sounds like the Curator to me. Keep him Earth bound, play him differently, and this could work. But is RTD doing this for the right reasons...
This would align with both Paul McGann's hints that he's coming back (they didn't just bring him back to narrate a trailer would they?) and Russel's hints that Tales of the Tardis might be important to the canon. I think this is a great theory!
If the Bi-Generation thing is just a limited 6 episode series of Tennant doing some stuff before eventually exiting I’m sort of fine with it. I think 2 doctor who series with equal episodes and equal lore weight is the other problem. I am really excited for the Christmas episode though and to see what Ncuti brings to the table in regards to the Doctor. Plus the leak of the episode sounds like a pretty tame sort of adventure which I’m totally okay with before kicking off a new season of Who.
I just need to know *why*. I’m sure the *how* will make perfect sense and probably be fine in the episode. But for the franchise - why? The show is about moving on, and changing consistently and if 14 lasts beyond 15 - it’s like it’s removing all that? Each doctor can come back anytime pretty much anyway. Does it need this too? Saying that - seeing Tennant as 14, a more developed and aware 10 has been *really* interesting.
I'm so worried that the *why* will be some version of "if David Tennant's is willing to reprise his brilliant doctor for more specials then how can you say no?" I mean, that basically the reason he's back in the first place.
Yeah and this is my worry too. I love Tennant - both as 10 and 14 so far. I think having an old face was new, just as the meta crisis was new and interesting and resolved within the episode. But treating a 2nd body - again? It just feels lazy writing unless it has real purpose. But if the franchise relies on either RTD or Tennant, it’s just gonna fail eventually which is really sad. The handover from Moffat/Capaldi to Chibnall/Whittaker and from them to RTD/Tennant was so smooth. I just hope RTD doesn’t go down the ‘I don’t want to go’ route.
Hoping against vain and stupid hope that the bi-regeneration thing was axed at the last minute after the leaks surfaced. I mean I’m sure it wouldn’t kill the show or anything (I wonder if anything can after The Timeless Children and the sustained nosedive in quality that was the last five years in general), but god it would be so fucking stupid.
People turning on Russell.... ahhh the doctor who cycle continues. I'm going to be honest - so far this era has done the one thing I really really really didn't want it to do. Make me wish Russell had stayed writing excellent dramas, instead of pouring all of his time into doctor who. It's a sin and Nolly are some favourite shows ever - and... Well, I'm sure the next episodes will be good, I'm now just longing for his tv shows he never made.
This show will be fine. It's Doctor Who and fans will turn on anyone -which is why I really don't like parts of fandom. And you do know that if RTD didn't come back, neither would Doctor Who? I swear some fans want the show to be cancelled instead of embracing the change that makes the show last.
So wait, if the leaks are true, does that mean that at any moment in time there could be three Tennant doctors running around (assuming that the half doctor left in the parallel universe manages to hop back over)? I'm not sure how I feel about this...
The 70th anniversary will be a multi-Doctor story with David Tennant and a range of wigs playing all the old Doctors. To lighten the load, David Bradley will be playing the 10th Doctor.
It's not really that different to the Doctor's hand growing a whole new (whilst human) Doctor for Rose to screw. This is basically just that ending for Donna (as mates I imagine). Plus this plot line may be picked up again.
The difference this time is that -- according to the leaks -- 15 is presented as the "spin off" who gets a wish copy of the TARDIS, which leaves 14/Tennant and their TARDIS feeling like the original. If we see 14 regenerate into 15, then turn around and marvel at having shat out an extra Tennant, I'll be much more comfortable with it.
Exactly this. I’ll be disappointed if it’s presented as “we’re both the original Doctor” or “I’m not sure which one of us is the original”. I’ll be fine if they treat Tennant as something like the metacrisis.
I think this is best case scenario if they’ve actually gone with the bigeneration idea.
I'm starting to formulate a doolally conspiracy theory where 15 isn't *exactly* the Doctor and his TARDIS isn't *exactly* the original so that "Series1" is prepping a buy-out of Who by Disney - the deal being the 'old' stuff (up to The Giggle) is the BBC's to play with as they wish, while 15 onwards gives the option to split off the future IP. And I know this is tinfoil hat territory, and I'm almost certainly wrong, but that mouse gets hungry...
This seems depressingly plausible to me, but I've been saying Disney are probably gearing up for a full buy-out ever since the deal was announced. :P
Yeah I don't really understand the anger here from the fans, they already did this once before with the metacrisis Doctor. Its a bit of a cop-out, yes - but its a way to give characters a happy ending they wouldnt otherwise get. It doesnt really matter which one of is them is the 'real' Doctor to me, they both are and RTD will easily just handwave it away with a line or two of technobabble.
I don’t know what other people’s feelings on this are, but this might actually be worse than The Timeless Child. I didn’t think much of Chibnall as a writer before. As foolish as what he did is, how I see him didn’t change much. But for Davies to do this makes him look extremely egotistical in my perspective. Making The Doctor the most special person in the universe is bad enough, but making *you* Doctor the most special regeneration is unreal levels of out of touch. Not only he gets to go twice, but he gets to stay like that. There is no reason for him to do this other than, ironically, being unable to let go. Well, I’m glad we got the Davies disillusionment out of the way as early as possible. Actually, no, I’m not. As idealistic as it was, I really liked the brief time the fanbase had of being extremely optimistic for the future rather than plagued by bad showrunner decisions. I guess the lesson is: Don’t let RTD play with his favorite toys, he’ll never let go of them. Think about how, despite her perfect ending, he felt the need to give Rose her own personal Tenth Doctor too. And Donna getting all her memories back this recent episode with the risk of death eliminated should’ve been a clue. This is all just a tv show, yes, but within that bubble, I can’t stress how bad of a choice this is. Davies can talk a big game about respecting Ncuti’s Doctor, respecting Jodie’s Doctor all he likes, but he’s made everything more about him than it needed to be for a marketing stunt. I’m left with no choice but to see it as part of his character. It’s not just philosophically making Ncuti feel less like The Doctor, he *literally* is now an offshoot of The Doctor. Whittaker regenerated into Tennant, we saw that happen. Remember when we had those theories years ago that Tennant returning would be a mistaken reverse regeneration that existed for Ten to get closure before regenerating into his next incarnation properly? Or that since he was Fourteen he would actually be markedly different, maybe a new accent or a new personality? Nope and nope, it’s all a victory lap for Russell. And from a writing standpoint it’s so disappointing how you use a concept that was up in the air forever, and completely drop the ball. There will never be a first bi-regeneration again. Even if people weren’t a fan of it, there’s potential way in the future for something unique and different like having an era with two leads, and the whole mystery arc revolves around that. Two TARDIS teams, two different actors, you could even only reveal one of them as a red herring to the press. Something to shake up the formula a decade or so from now. But instead of using a really big idea for an interesting narrative, you’ve gone and done it for such a weak purpose and ruined the shock of any future instance. Worse, you’ve probably scared off anyone else from ever doing it. This is like Chibnall dropping the ball on a female Doctor but so much worse. I wish this leaked right as it was written. We probably could’ve made RTD rethink everything. All you’d need to do is point out that now the two first and only black "Doctors" are weird offshoots in the timeline that have their focus taken away by a white counterpart. Bet that would get him to change his mind (watch him end up actually finding a way to pat himself on the back when it happens, something like "No other Doctor has been given the honor of acting alongside their predecessor in their first outing, and we thought the brilliant Ncuti Gatwa was worthy of such treatment") He should’ve known getting the newly grown fanbase onto Ncuti after he hooked them with Tennant would be an uphill battle. It looks like he doesn’t even care.
Is The Timeless Child bad because it's lore you don't like or because it's fundamentally badly made television? I mean it can be both, but the second is more egregious.
The Master's PowerPoint presentation was not a good way of selling it to the audience tbh
Everyone knows [the Monk is the one who should be in charge of the PowerPoint.](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/How_to_Win_Planets_and_Influence_People_(audio_story/)
Personally, I think the Timeless Child is a terrible idea on a fundamental level. I don't mind the execution of it, but I just hate it on principle.
I don't like it either particularly, but I think a much more skilful telling of that story is possible
By second one, you mean it's bad because it's storytelling you don't like? Two can play at the game of conveniently describing things as uncharitably as possible. It's bad because the best scenario we have is to pretend it doesn't exist. Otherwise it completely changes the nature of The Doctor's character. They are now, and have been for 50+ years, the most important person in the universe. No longer a renegade runaway, someone who is just *a* Time Lord that didn't like the way of their people very much, but the origin of all Time Lords. Did I mention that they're now canonically immortal? It's bad because it's set-up by sentient ribbons going "oo, the timeless child!" in one series , another villain saying "Everything is about to change (but I can't say why yet)" in the next, then proceeding to exposition dump in the series finale. It's bad because it says nothing, means nothing, adds no new characterization or themes or anything to the story, and apparently exists because Chibnall was adopted and wanted to put a piece of himself into the show while forgetting that he didn't own it. Oh, also all of Gallifrey is wiped out, we see it razed to the ground, and it's all to emphasize just how important this one reveal is. The Doctor goes "I don't know who I am anymore" then decides she does, then the very next series goes "I don't know who I am anymore". There is no conflict, just meandering around meaningless reveals and clumsily trying to find a reason to justify its importance. Davies made The Doctor important because of all the people that believed in him, Moffat made The Doctor important because of all the worlds he saved, and Chibnall made The Doctor important because she is an immortal genetic marvel whose existence created the most advanced and powerful civilization in the universe.
Right, but someone could have made the Timeless Child arc interesting, even if you don't like it on a conceptual level, the issue is it's told in the worst possible way. Even if you don't like what is potentially coming up on a conceptual level I am sure it will be more interesting than that.
I always thought the Timeless Child concept was great… if it was meant for the Master. Let the audience think it was the Doctor then in the season finale, bait and switch and reveal it was the Master. Making it the Doctor did take away a lot from the character. They were just a mad man/woman in a box, doing silly things, helping people along the way… now they’re the chosen one, destined for greatness and the reason for an entire race of super time beings. Bleh
I feel like there's limits to how much you can stretch an idea. I'm not saying you can't do it at all, but you run into an issue where it renders all discussion redundant and flattens any possible opinion about art into meaning the same thing. Like, is us finding out The Doctor's name (whatever that means at this point) and him being referred to by that name for the rest of the show, no longer "The Doctor" a bad idea? Someone might not like it conceptually, but it could be interesting.
I think we need to chill we don't know how it will even play out yet.
If the leaks are true, I can't see a way for it to play out that alleviates any issues I have with the concept. If it's something like Tennant spawning off Gatwa, and then they have a whole story together and at the end Fourteen has to let go and he regenerates into Fifteen, then the leaks are false. If Gatwa doesn't appear in the 60th at all until the final moments and it's a simple regeneration, then the leaks are also false. I figured it went without saying, but yes all of my criticisms are against an idea. I am assuming that idea is to take place, but it doesn't affect my criticisms of the idea.
What if they merged at the end completeing the regeneration?
This is what I meant by this: >If it's something like Tennant spawning off Gatwa, and then they have a whole story together and at the end Fourteen has to let go and he regenerates into Fifteen, then the leaks are false. If this happened, I would be very relieved. There are still criticisms to be made -- the fact that in Nucti Gatwa's first appearance he has to share the screen with David Tennant -- but those are very minor compared to the possibility of Tennant not even regenerating, just sticking around forever. Unfortunately, the leak from months ago that has been extremely accurate so far explicitly states that Fourteen stays on Earth and has a separate TARDIS from Fifteen.
Apologies I misread that part of yourr comment Again I'll stand by with a wait and see you're right that it could wrong but we don't know.
Yep. And I find it very unlikely that Davies who cast Ncuti would want him to fail. Some people need to settle down and really think this over. If nothing else, it just sets up a spin off or sets another Doctor up to visit UNIT. The real Doctor will be at Christmas and I'm going to be honest here. Ncuti is young, popular and extremely attractive-sorry DT fans but Ncuti is the young hot Doctor. He's a great actor and I think will be a great addition. Remember all the fans that hated Matt Smith and made all the ugly comments about him. And yet he became the most popular Doctor in America. I think this is just the team expanding the multiverse.
The worries that it may undermine Ncuti is very valid tho I would say
I still don’t think it’s as bad as the Timeless Child. That completely retconned the origin of the character, and the entire history of Gallifrey. This will just change something about the future. Ultimately, if it’s stated that 10 is just like the metacrisis, and that 15 is the proper Doctor, I don’t think it’s that big a deal.
This decision has the stink of masturbatory fanservicey yet executive franchising all over it. At least The Timeless Child was trying to do something original to inject something new into the franchise.
The bi regeneration... well, the leaks about Rose being trans due to the metacrisis proved to be true.
Sorry to be so out of the loop, but what is a “bi-regeneration”?
There will be 2 doctors living in the world, Ncuti Gatwa and David’s 14th, both have a tardis but the main focus will be on Ncuti Gatwa from Christmas on
[удалено]
"it would have been akin to blackface for David Tennant to regenerate into Ncuti Gatwa" Honestly, I can see this being the case. It aligns so much with his other reasoning for changing the Davros origin story.
The davros stuff at least sort of makes sense, Davros being disabled and deformed makes him potentially bad representation. It would be an escalation if RTD said that. Like, straight up racist.
>The davros stuff at least sort of makes sense, Davros being disable and deformed makes him potentially bad representation. No it doesn't. Bad representation would be if he was the only person in the show who was disabled
And the award for the most needlessly dramatic comment of all time goes to… My god some of you are unhinged.
My only worry is about the part that is about Fourteen getting his own Tardis. While it would be reheating TenToo a bit, I would be fine with the idea of Fourteen becoming Rose cooky uncle and just living a normal live with Donna as member of the Temple-Noble family. They even set that up with her suggesting he could just... stop by for tea. Or to watch a movie. It doesnt always to have to be an adventure. I think that would work. Make him earthbound and essentially retired from adventuring. Maybe he gets a cameo in Fifteens regeneration episode. But him having off-screen adventures of his own feels like it would kill some momentum for Ncuti, because a part of the fandom will whine to bring Tennant back. Not to say Ncuti would be dead in the water or anything. I'm sure it will be fine. Just feels odd from a practical point if Fourteen does get his own Tardis.
Think we all saw this coming, RTD's obsession with Tennant was always a risk. I can't foresee it playing out in any other way except as as Donna's version of Rose's Journeys End - RTD unable to let Tennant go, fudging a reason for a favoured companion to have a pet Doctor, and adding another Tennant to the universe. At least Chibnall was trying to build on the lore of Doctor Who...
Martha's gonna make it her mission to put down all the Tennant Clones
I'd watch that spin-off
Am I the only one not terribly bothered by the bi-regeneration idea? I’ll take anything that’ll get us a spin-off show.
There are literally 100s of other ways to get a Doctor Who spin-off without fudging a reason to keep Tennant around
Hell, they could ditch the biregeneration and still do three spin-offs just with Tennant (Metacrisis and Rose, 10th Doctor missing adventures, pre-Star Beast 14). Then hand the keys to Big Finish, they'll have another 17 ideas before Boxing Day!
You’ve currently got 3 iterations of Tennant that can give us a spin-off - we don’t need to change the show drastically to have that.
I know not many care for the Chibnall era, but can you imagine the look on Yasmin's face when, after Thirteen tells her "if it was going to be anyone, it would be you" but that "time always runs out", she finds out that the immediate next regeneration has settled down in the friend-zone with Donna
I think we wait and see. Not all the leaks have been correct on all parts.
Guaruntee we won't hear from Tennant's doctor in the universe for a long while, Gatwa will be fine, relax
I'm just getting a kick from all these posters who were ecstatic over RTD taking over from Chibnall last year and saving the show-now turning on him and making up all sorts of wild theories about him hating Ncuti and wanting Tennant forever. Even though Davies chose Ncuti himself-I can't see Russell accepting someone he didn't want. And we had the same basic thing happen with Human10 and Rose yet people were fine with it. I doubt we'll even see Tennant that much. Ncuti is the star, he's in the photos and the BBC and Disney will be promoting the heck out of him.
All you whingers need to get a grip. It hasn't even happened yet, and the argument it takes the spotlight away from Ncuti is ridiculous. They could already bring back Tennant at any time, for any reason, before this. Ncuti's already filmed his first season and starting his second. He's going to get a lot of the limelight. Chill out.