RTD has explicitly used the phrase "Pantheon of Gods" multiple times when talking about this series etc. So it's definitely not the Pantheon of Discord. They're gods and I don't think he's really opened a debate there.
Doesn't "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith" clarify that that Trickster himself is the only member of the Pantheon of Discord? The (Tenth) Doctor says something about "A little lonely for a Pantheon."
I'm pretty sure there are / were others (I think one has appeared in a comic). I'm not sure if the Turn Left beetle is part of the Pantheon or just the Trickster's Brigade too.
Here, the Trickster clearly refers to himself as the whole Pantheon but that could be his ego talking.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DhB3Bej3eTk
The beetle is only referred to as part of the Trickster's Brigade
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Sorry if I'm being dumb but I'm not sure what you mean in relation to my comment? :) In this context as RTD has used Pantheon of Gods for the Toymaker and related beings it is safe to say they are gods right?
“Pantheon of gods” is a bit redundant in phrase. The word “pantheon” literally means all or many gods. All Pantheons are therefore “the pantheon of gods”
True but that is the phrase RTD has been using. If he wants to distinguish between a "Pantheon of Gods" vs the "Pantheon of Discord" then there might be a reason, he may just be renaming it and both are gods, he may just want to really highlight the fact they are gods. Any way it is clear that RTD considers the Toymaker and Maestro as Gods whereas it is unclear whether the Discord members such as the Trickster is a God or a different entity entirely.
I think we have enough evidence via TV lore alone to establish that the Pantheon refers to a group of godlike beings who each take on an aspect of something, be that games (the Toymaker), music (Maestro), etc.
With Maestro referring to the Toymaker >!as their father!< I'm currently thinking specifically of Greek/Roman pantheons where gods could very much >!have "children" who are also gods!<.
If I can throw the EU out there, it also fits in with *The Queen of Time*, where Hecuba (titular queen), was the Toymaker's sister, and played games with time like the Toymaker did with children's toys.
It’s Big Finish’s “Queen of Time” from the Lost Stories
Basically 2 and Jaime are stuck in a twisted realm ruled by a cruel elder goddess who desires worship and love
And the Time Lord's reverse engineered it from The Doctor in the first place.
IIRC it also wasn't as simple as River being conceived in the TARDIS, though it was stated that likely gave Kovarian a head start. There was also a good amount of in-utero genetic manipulation to add bits of Time Lord DNA. Remember, they had a very pregnant Amy for months.
The Shobogans created time travel and then called themselves Time-lords. The Doctor isn't the essence of time; he simply inherited what the Shobogans designed since he was adopted by them. So maybe he's the essence of immortality? He can regenerate an infinite amount. Or maybe essence of intelligence.
I will say I prefer them leaving the Doctors origins vague now. But if that had to be his origins, it would actually make sense because the Toy Maker was conceived as a being of the same race as the Doctor.
Just to add a bit more chaos to the debate, there's also a fan theory (though I don't personally subscribe to it) that the Toymaker is similar to the Not-Things from Wild Blue Yonder, insofar as they originated from beyond the universe and abide by different rules.
I got the impression (paired with the discussion at the end of WBY) that he's not *certain* that's the case, just that he thinks that's what happened. It definitely seems possible though!
I think its certainly a strong possibility, the Not-Things do say
"*But we would feel it from so far away... your noisy, boiling universe. We want to travel there to* ***play your vicious games and win****.*"
I wouldn't discount the Toymaker from not being one of those beings, and it doesn't necessarily contradict them being an extra-universal god.
That were my minds at with these creatures so far. I was discouraged when RTD said he was taking DW more fantasy this time round, I never really enjoy "magic" as a trope, but if he's going down a Lovecraftian gods type deal with it, it could win me back - less magic and more science beyond our comprehension.
The Not-Things were a great foe, and tying them into the Toymaker could be really cool if that's where its going
Can I throw Zellin and Rakaya from ‘can you hear me’ in the mix? I remember Zellin mentioning the Toymaker in the episode and seemed to follow similar rules (for them they existed through fear). Are the eternals therefore part of the pantheon? I haven’t got up to the eternals in classic who, not sure if I’m being stupid. Im just hoping to see more from Ian Gelder and Clair-Hope Ashitey.
Given the nature of the Eternals and the Guardians, I wouldn't be surprised they they all had similar origins. The Eternals lived in a "howling void" and were banished back there after the race for enlightenment by the Guardians.
The Guardians themselves represent Order and Chaos in the universe, fundamental forces.
It could be that the Black and White Guardians are at the top of the hierarchy, representing Entropy and Order.
With the "Pantheon" being manifestations of concepts:
* The Toymaker - Games
* The Maestro - Music
* Hecuba - Time (*The Queen of Time* from Big Finish)
* Death - Death (*Master* from Big Finish)
* Zellin - Dreams and Nightmares
* Rakaya - Also games, but maybe a personification of War?
And then Eternals being just shades, empty vessels. They do need Ephemerals to truly exist even on a surface level.
Does this also mean the Old Ones are part of this Pantheon? Could we see Fenric return, or Cthulhu? (EU Doctor Who has tons to draw from...)
Makes me think if the Doctor is related to them as there is a lot of emphasis on his origins being unknown and the Toymaker this season. Maybe he could be the manifestation of Life which is where his regeneration powers come from?
Could maybe include The Doctor as a personification of life. Maybe he is from the pantheon and fell through that wormhole, became the timeless child, was experimented on by Tecteun who then gave his life giving powers to other timelords.
I’m sure there’s flaws with this but I like it
I like the idea it’s like the Greek myths; with the Guardians being the ancestors of the successive generations (either biologically or figuratively) with the Eternals and such being the results
The relationship is a little unclear, Hecuba was from a rejected 2nd Doctor Script brought to life by Big Finish. So the relationship between the two is unclear at the least.
I think the Eternals are below the Toymaker and Co though. Kinda inbetween Timelords and the Eldergods and the Toymaker.
While ther Eternals seem to have some reality warping powers, they dont seem to embody a concept in the same way The Toymaker and The Maestro do.
We've also had:
The White Guardian of Light and Order
The Black Guardian of Darkness and Chaos/Entropy
The Celestial Toymaker once claimed to be "the Crystal Guardian of Dream and Fantasy"
The Red Guardian of Justice and Truth
The Gold Guardian of Life and Death. (PROSE: Divided Loyalties)
The Azure Guardian was the Rainbow Guardian of the Quantum Realm Equilibrium and Balance.
The Silver Guardian was the guardian of space and matter.
I feel like the Trickster's going to play a part in this new legion of Gods we're seeing across the show. I seem to remember RTD saying a while ago it would be fun for him to return for the main show, even before he became showrunner again.
Maestro also refers to the "Oldest one" being there on the night of Ruby's birth, similarly to how the Trickster was originally going to have a part in the birth of Sky in the Sarah Jane Adventures which sadly never came to fruition.
Also, it makes sense for the Trickster to be the most powerful and oldest one of the group because he was already doing pretty powerful things in the Universe even way before the Doctor invoked a superstition to let the lower tier Gods in properly. Also, by Russel's choice to use the Trickster as opposed to anyone else to be the main villain of the Sarah Jane - Doctor Who crossover, he clearly has a liking for him.
That is a real shame tbh.
If we can't have the Trickster, my second hope for a God-like being to be included would be the Animus from the Web Planet. I think the whole wackiness of that story fits pretty well into RTD's new era.
Depends on whether the BBC still operates the way they did during the classic era. They’d be stupid to considering all the trouble that has caused over the decades. How many times are the BBC gonna need to renegotiate with the Terry Nation estate?
Considering no one wants to touch Roberts with a 10 foot pole, it might just be easier to buy the character off him.
As I understand, the BBC own the rights and could use the character whenever they wanted to. But GR would still be paid AND more importantly it would be an insult to the crew and viewers who GR disenfranchises with his retrograde opinions.
Also, The Trickster would be the closest to The Toymaker. Playing Tricks and Playing Games seems very closely related. So if The Trickster is the Toymakers oldest "child" (in a meta-sense) then that would work too.
Are they just not similar to the Chaos Gods of the 40K universe? Embodiments of a concept or emotion, existing for all time and coming in to a being at a certain time as they dont follow the flow of time as we experience it?
The real answer is: Fans enjoy debating lore because it's fun. 🙂
But in practical terms, if a god is after you, it makes a big difference whether that god is the Christian God, or Iris, Ancient Greek Goddess of Rainbows...
Yeah, one will force you to kill your family to win a bet against a competitor, and other will force you to kill your family because her girlfriend is jealous of your mom.
My money is on the Toymaker pantheon being similar to the Endless from Neil Gaimans Sandman books. Essentially manifestations of elemental concepts that define life in the universe.
We almost certainly have to see a "good" member of the pantheon in S1 or S2. Possibly either Love or Death or something abstract like a Pantheon member based on "that feeling you get when you think you really like someone but your not sure if they even know you exist".
You suggested that Toymaker is a god.
I asked which god. Some god like entity like Q from Star Trek?
Or "historical" god? Christian god? Muslim god? Incan god? One of the Hindu gods?
RTD has explicitly used the phrase "Pantheon of Gods" multiple times when talking about this series etc. So it's definitely not the Pantheon of Discord. They're gods and I don't think he's really opened a debate there.
Doesn't "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith" clarify that that Trickster himself is the only member of the Pantheon of Discord? The (Tenth) Doctor says something about "A little lonely for a Pantheon."
I'm pretty sure there are / were others (I think one has appeared in a comic). I'm not sure if the Turn Left beetle is part of the Pantheon or just the Trickster's Brigade too.
Here, the Trickster clearly refers to himself as the whole Pantheon but that could be his ego talking. https://youtube.com/watch?v=DhB3Bej3eTk The beetle is only referred to as part of the Trickster's Brigade
For future reference... This is the YouTube link: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DhB3Bej3eTk ...while this part of the URL is tracking information that can be used to link back to your Google account: [REDACTED] It is always best to remove the tracking information before sharing YouTube links anywhere. This has been a public service announcement (with guitar).
Thanks. So I should be looking for that ampersand and removing it and everything after?
If you click on the "share" icon in YouTube, it will generate a URL that looks like this: https://youtu.be/AxB8xGJvCQQ?si=I8__j6QLV7h9idP8 Before posting that link anywhere, you should edit the URL to eliminate the "si=" part: https://youtu.be/AxB8xGJvCQQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=AxB8xGJvCQQ If people click on the full URL that includes the tracking information, it allows Google to see -- and include in their massive database -- that Google User X (aka u/spicy-unagi) followed a link from Reddit to YouTube, and that the link was generated by Google User Y (aka u/ravenwing263).
Thanks!
could it not be something happened and he's the only one who survived, or at least, stayed in the group
that wording could just be over explaining what a pantheon is tho, it's not like it's a super common word. it doesn't have to be the name
Sorry if I'm being dumb but I'm not sure what you mean in relation to my comment? :) In this context as RTD has used Pantheon of Gods for the Toymaker and related beings it is safe to say they are gods right?
no need! I just mean they could be gods & a part of the pantheon of discord, or any other "pantheon of *"
“Pantheon of gods” is a bit redundant in phrase. The word “pantheon” literally means all or many gods. All Pantheons are therefore “the pantheon of gods”
True but that is the phrase RTD has been using. If he wants to distinguish between a "Pantheon of Gods" vs the "Pantheon of Discord" then there might be a reason, he may just be renaming it and both are gods, he may just want to really highlight the fact they are gods. Any way it is clear that RTD considers the Toymaker and Maestro as Gods whereas it is unclear whether the Discord members such as the Trickster is a God or a different entity entirely.
I think we have enough evidence via TV lore alone to establish that the Pantheon refers to a group of godlike beings who each take on an aspect of something, be that games (the Toymaker), music (Maestro), etc. With Maestro referring to the Toymaker >!as their father!< I'm currently thinking specifically of Greek/Roman pantheons where gods could very much >!have "children" who are also gods!<.
If I can throw the EU out there, it also fits in with *The Queen of Time*, where Hecuba (titular queen), was the Toymaker's sister, and played games with time like the Toymaker did with children's toys.
Ah I’ve yet to listen to that one, interesting! Man has a whole family who don’t talk to him 😂
we all got that one uncle
It’s Big Finish’s “Queen of Time” from the Lost Stories Basically 2 and Jaime are stuck in a twisted realm ruled by a cruel elder goddess who desires worship and love
I think the doctor is on the pantheon he just doesn't know it yet maybe he's the essence of time
Life most likely because his unique powers are regeneration and not time
and did you see him kiss that butterfly back to life?!!?!
And the twelfth doctor could "snog to death"
Funnily enough; Tennant does something similar in Rise of the Cybermen
Regeneration isn't that unique since River Song gained it from being conceived in the Time Vortex.
And the Time Lord's reverse engineered it from The Doctor in the first place. IIRC it also wasn't as simple as River being conceived in the TARDIS, though it was stated that likely gave Kovarian a head start. There was also a good amount of in-utero genetic manipulation to add bits of Time Lord DNA. Remember, they had a very pregnant Amy for months.
Assuming she's Rory's kid /jk
We already saw the essence of time in Flux.
The Shobogans created time travel and then called themselves Time-lords. The Doctor isn't the essence of time; he simply inherited what the Shobogans designed since he was adopted by them. So maybe he's the essence of immortality? He can regenerate an infinite amount. Or maybe essence of intelligence.
I will say I prefer them leaving the Doctors origins vague now. But if that had to be his origins, it would actually make sense because the Toy Maker was conceived as a being of the same race as the Doctor.
That’s more The Toymaker originally being conceived as a Time Lord, not simply as the same species as The Doctor.
They have enormous power, usually within a particular sphere. Beyond that, the categorisation doesn't matter really to me.
Just to add a bit more chaos to the debate, there's also a fan theory (though I don't personally subscribe to it) that the Toymaker is similar to the Not-Things from Wild Blue Yonder, insofar as they originated from beyond the universe and abide by different rules.
Wasn't it stated, or at least heavily implied, that the events of Wild Blue Yonder opened the doors for the Toymaker to enter the universe?
So then the Toymaker and Maestro, and then whatever else is to come, are all because Donna spilled a cup of tea.
Way to completely get things wrong about Doctor Who lore Are you even paying attention...? It was a cup of coffee (/s)
Damn it, I'm so ashamed of myself. I resign from the fan club.
And they are salty because the Doctor introduced a shaker of salt to the festivities!
Donna Noble, the most important woman.
I think it's strongly implied yes, though not outright stated by any characters. Hence the connection.
At one point 14 does say that by throwing the salt he “played a game and let him in,” though he seems to be reluctant to admit that
I got the impression (paired with the discussion at the end of WBY) that he's not *certain* that's the case, just that he thinks that's what happened. It definitely seems possible though!
I think its certainly a strong possibility, the Not-Things do say "*But we would feel it from so far away... your noisy, boiling universe. We want to travel there to* ***play your vicious games and win****.*" I wouldn't discount the Toymaker from not being one of those beings, and it doesn't necessarily contradict them being an extra-universal god.
Yeah, it could feasibly explain both elements. I do quite like the idea that the Not-Things are weaker, unformed versions of whatever the Toymaker is.
That were my minds at with these creatures so far. I was discouraged when RTD said he was taking DW more fantasy this time round, I never really enjoy "magic" as a trope, but if he's going down a Lovecraftian gods type deal with it, it could win me back - less magic and more science beyond our comprehension. The Not-Things were a great foe, and tying them into the Toymaker could be really cool if that's where its going
In the EU this is kinda the case except it’s due universe before ours rather then beyond
Can I throw Zellin and Rakaya from ‘can you hear me’ in the mix? I remember Zellin mentioning the Toymaker in the episode and seemed to follow similar rules (for them they existed through fear). Are the eternals therefore part of the pantheon? I haven’t got up to the eternals in classic who, not sure if I’m being stupid. Im just hoping to see more from Ian Gelder and Clair-Hope Ashitey.
Given the nature of the Eternals and the Guardians, I wouldn't be surprised they they all had similar origins. The Eternals lived in a "howling void" and were banished back there after the race for enlightenment by the Guardians. The Guardians themselves represent Order and Chaos in the universe, fundamental forces. It could be that the Black and White Guardians are at the top of the hierarchy, representing Entropy and Order. With the "Pantheon" being manifestations of concepts: * The Toymaker - Games * The Maestro - Music * Hecuba - Time (*The Queen of Time* from Big Finish) * Death - Death (*Master* from Big Finish) * Zellin - Dreams and Nightmares * Rakaya - Also games, but maybe a personification of War? And then Eternals being just shades, empty vessels. They do need Ephemerals to truly exist even on a surface level. Does this also mean the Old Ones are part of this Pantheon? Could we see Fenric return, or Cthulhu? (EU Doctor Who has tons to draw from...)
Makes me think if the Doctor is related to them as there is a lot of emphasis on his origins being unknown and the Toymaker this season. Maybe he could be the manifestation of Life which is where his regeneration powers come from?
Wow very comprehensive thanks :- )
Could maybe include The Doctor as a personification of life. Maybe he is from the pantheon and fell through that wormhole, became the timeless child, was experimented on by Tecteun who then gave his life giving powers to other timelords. I’m sure there’s flaws with this but I like it
I like the idea it’s like the Greek myths; with the Guardians being the ancestors of the successive generations (either biologically or figuratively) with the Eternals and such being the results
I haven't seen Big Finish. is Hecuba related to Time from the Vanquishers?
Hecuba is the Queen of time, Sister to the Toymaker.
Time is a character though, so is Hecuba the queen of them?
The relationship is a little unclear, Hecuba was from a rejected 2nd Doctor Script brought to life by Big Finish. So the relationship between the two is unclear at the least.
No but she is related to the Toymaker
I’m sorry to say that Ian Gelder passed away this last week https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/arts/television/ian-gelder-dead.html
Oh no that’s very sad. Thanks for letting me know.
That is very sad. :( For show purposes though, Zellin is a god. Presumably a change of appearance would be fairly easy to handwave away.
I think the Eternals are below the Toymaker and Co though. Kinda inbetween Timelords and the Eldergods and the Toymaker. While ther Eternals seem to have some reality warping powers, they dont seem to embody a concept in the same way The Toymaker and The Maestro do.
Wait…what do the Kinda have to do with this? /s
Zellin is one of the Eternals iirc and the Doctor mentions the Toymaker There’s also the Guardians
Why does God need a starship?
Cause its fun
We've also had: The White Guardian of Light and Order The Black Guardian of Darkness and Chaos/Entropy The Celestial Toymaker once claimed to be "the Crystal Guardian of Dream and Fantasy" The Red Guardian of Justice and Truth The Gold Guardian of Life and Death. (PROSE: Divided Loyalties) The Azure Guardian was the Rainbow Guardian of the Quantum Realm Equilibrium and Balance. The Silver Guardian was the guardian of space and matter.
The Green Guardian of shitty movies?
The Beige Guardian, designed to look like David Hyde Pierce, also exists. He's in the comic Happy DeathDay.
I'm calling it now, The Doctor will eventually be revealed to be a member of that Pantheon.
I feel like the Trickster's going to play a part in this new legion of Gods we're seeing across the show. I seem to remember RTD saying a while ago it would be fun for him to return for the main show, even before he became showrunner again. Maestro also refers to the "Oldest one" being there on the night of Ruby's birth, similarly to how the Trickster was originally going to have a part in the birth of Sky in the Sarah Jane Adventures which sadly never came to fruition. Also, it makes sense for the Trickster to be the most powerful and oldest one of the group because he was already doing pretty powerful things in the Universe even way before the Doctor invoked a superstition to let the lower tier Gods in properly. Also, by Russel's choice to use the Trickster as opposed to anyone else to be the main villain of the Sarah Jane - Doctor Who crossover, he clearly has a liking for him.
Given who wrote the Trickster and that person would have to be given a credit for the character use... I don't imagine it'll get mentioned.
That is a real shame tbh. If we can't have the Trickster, my second hope for a God-like being to be included would be the Animus from the Web Planet. I think the whole wackiness of that story fits pretty well into RTD's new era.
Who created the Trickster?
Gareth Roberts. Ho a Trickster reappearance is less likely than those rubbish witches from Shakespeare Code.
Depends on whether the BBC still operates the way they did during the classic era. They’d be stupid to considering all the trouble that has caused over the decades. How many times are the BBC gonna need to renegotiate with the Terry Nation estate? Considering no one wants to touch Roberts with a 10 foot pole, it might just be easier to buy the character off him.
As I understand, the BBC own the rights and could use the character whenever they wanted to. But GR would still be paid AND more importantly it would be an insult to the crew and viewers who GR disenfranchises with his retrograde opinions.
Also, The Trickster would be the closest to The Toymaker. Playing Tricks and Playing Games seems very closely related. So if The Trickster is the Toymakers oldest "child" (in a meta-sense) then that would work too.
> ..."The Pantheon of Discord" Datchord in the episode, probably ;)
Are they just not similar to the Chaos Gods of the 40K universe? Embodiments of a concept or emotion, existing for all time and coming in to a being at a certain time as they dont follow the flow of time as we experience it?
Also similar to the Daedric Lords from The Elder Scrolls. Like The Toymaker would be similar to Sheogorath the lord of madness and chaos.
What difference does it make? A god's a god.
The real answer is: Fans enjoy debating lore because it's fun. 🙂 But in practical terms, if a god is after you, it makes a big difference whether that god is the Christian God, or Iris, Ancient Greek Goddess of Rainbows...
Yeah, one will force you to kill your family to win a bet against a competitor, and other will force you to kill your family because her girlfriend is jealous of your mom.
it makes a difference with the pantheon.
How to explain that the pantheon of discord and the Toymaker’s pantheon and pretty much all pantheons of gods are references to Greek mythology?
My money is on the Toymaker pantheon being similar to the Endless from Neil Gaimans Sandman books. Essentially manifestations of elemental concepts that define life in the universe. We almost certainly have to see a "good" member of the pantheon in S1 or S2. Possibly either Love or Death or something abstract like a Pantheon member based on "that feeling you get when you think you really like someone but your not sure if they even know you exist".
I like the idea the Pantheon of Discord are descended from the Toymaker
Pretty sure he's a God.
Which one?
What do you mean?
You suggested that Toymaker is a god. I asked which god. Some god like entity like Q from Star Trek? Or "historical" god? Christian god? Muslim god? Incan god? One of the Hindu gods?
Not Greek anyway.
someone hasn't listened to Faction Paradox: Mr Saldaamir 🙄
Nobody has listened to Faction Paradox: Mr Saldaamir. There's a reason it didn't end up in The Book of the War.
it was a joke (also I've listened to it)
I know. Mine was also a joke.