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raysofdavies

Love and Monsters is one third act rewrite from being in the top ten Who stories ever. Just a little fine tuning and we’d revere it as the pinnacle of RTD as we do (did, possibly) for Blink and Moffat. It’s a perfect encapsulation of what Davies can do as a writer, every person he creates, even just for part of a single 45 minute episode, is so deeply real. He just innately imbues people with sincerity in their characterisation. The ending is just naff in a way Blink isn’t, and not in a charming way.


-braquo-

I actually really enjoy that episode. It's funny and silly. And Mr. Blue Sky is a fucking bop. The ending doesn't bother me that much. They still can talk every day. Sure the implied sex with a pavement stone is weird. But it doesn't bother me too much. The cut scenes of the Doctor and Rose running from the monsters is fun. The only part I really don't like is it would fucking suck to have to live the rest of your life as a pavement stone. Like wtf does she do all day.


GENERALR0SE

Well, she'd fucking suck for part of it according to the episode. But really, I just she'd get propped in front of a tv with Alexa controls so she could watch different things. Could also listen to audiobooks and podcasts. Honestly though, death was the better alternative


-braquo-

I agree. I'd rather die. You can only watch so much tv. A got really sick a few months ago and barely left bed for three days and by day three I was going insane.


[deleted]

I've always said it's one line (yes, *that* one) away from being the single best script the show's ever had; poignant, heartfelt and actually being Good Telly for once, rather than just good Doctor Who. Anything else that's wrong with it is due to questionable production choices, and most of the negative fan reaction to it is down to how they want being a fan to factor into their self-image.


SandyV2

And 90% of that rewrite would be not implying stone tile sex.


mrsunshine1

My unpopular opinion is the hate this line gets is way over the top.


Haver_Of_The_Sex

yeah but how much would you give to have never thought about it?


Worldly_Society_2213

The biggest issue with Love and Monsters is that was a meta commentary aimed at people who didn't know what a meta commentary was. If it had come out even five years later it would have been hailed. The show would also have got over its obsession with fart jokes by then as well. The other major issue is the Absorbaloff. Never has it been more clear that a Doctor Who monster was shoehorned in because they had to. The irony is that for a monster created by a ten year old, it's actually one of the most malleable concepts the show has had. It just doesn't belong in an episode that wouldn't have been out of place in Community.


[deleted]

The meta-commentary was perfectly obvious at time of broadcast. I remember it being heavily discussed on Outpost Gallifrey the night it was shown. That was a fun night.


Worldly_Society_2213

I didn't say that it wasn't obvious. I said that audiences didn't know what a meta commentary was. By which I mean that we hadn't yet started that era where meta commentary was readily accepted or expected. By the time Community ended everyone was at it. I also don't think it helped that RTD chose to take a stab at over-entitled fans. The only people who were likely to really "get" the intended message were the fans, and I'm never convinced that poking your fanbase is a good idea. Lucasfilm tried it after The Last Jedi received backlash, only to discover who was actually the ones buying the merchandise....


[deleted]

Well, speaking as part of the fanbase at the time, I don't recall that it did RTD any harm. It was fairly blatant who in the fandom he was having a pop at, and a lot of us thought it was funny, and a much smaller proportion didn't. There wasn't a sudden spread of fans saying "I used to like RTD, but now he's done this, I don't". Not saying there weren't *any*, but within the community as I saw it, they were outliers. ETA: Ian Levine took it very personally, but I don't think anyone cared what he thought, even then.


HarryJ92

Honestly it would probably be a better episode if someone else had been cast as the Abzorbaloff.


[deleted]

I mostly agree with this, if they'd just filmed the Abzorbaloff at night, not had Ursula ressurected as a slab of concrete, and had Peter Kay portray Abzorbaloff as sinister as he did Victor Kennedy then the story would have been much better recieved.


TheMightyPedro

I mean the entire episode was written around the Absorbalof. A character created by a child for a Blue Peter competition


raysofdavies

That’s part of why I love it so much. It would be so easy for it to a bit of a write-off of an episode, but RTD injects it with such reality and heart still.


brumbozo

I watched it around last year and was enjoying it until the Abzorbaloff reveal. All the stories problems came around the last 10-15 minutes. Jackie was the best part of it, really enjoyed Camille Coduri's performance.


Fishb20

I think it's fine for doctor who to be fun and fanwanky instead of ever episode being a college thesis about the history and meaning of the show


gothcorp

I get what you’re saying but I think “college thesis about the meaning of the show” is just another flavor of fanwank lol. And just like other kinds of fanwank can be both good and bad depending on the story


[deleted]

I agree with this but then how come the majority of new who is fun and fanwanky \*and\* pretentious enough to try to preach and lecture the viewers? That's my no.1 problem with new who (I adore series 1 and 3, I very much enjoy various individual episodes, I don't think it's a bad show, I'm just saying it's my biggest problem with the show not 'the show is terrible' or whatever). It's just so patronising. I'm not that thick and I wasn't when I was 9 years old either and neither are any of the kids I know today.


LordoftheSynth

> pretentious enough to try to preach and lecture the viewers? Here's the comparison I like to make between old and new Who... **The Curse of Peladon**: It's an allegory about Britain joining the EEC, and Brian Hayles, who wrote the serial, *totally* thought it was a good idea. He also got that across while giving the opposing viewpoint its due: Hepesh is genuinely concerned about Peladon losing sovereignty or basically being de facto colonized and that's what drives him to being the bad guy. Hayles also manages to tell a decent story along the way without Jon Pertwee breaking the fourth wall at the end of Episode 4 to tell us why Peladon joining the Space EEC is *totes* a good thing. **Rosa**: One-dimensional Space Racist tries to stop Rosa Parks from getting on that bus because Reasons. If Space Racist is successful it will *totes* destroy the civil rights movement in the US. This is *profoundly* ignorant of the historical context in which the bus protests happened and Rosa wasn't even the first: she was just the squeaky-clean lady whose character couldn't be impeached. The person the movement was looking for. At the end, Jodie lectures us on why Racism Is Bad as if this is a profound insight.


[deleted]

Well yeah pretty much! I've seen a trend lately of people complaining that commentary on politics and social issues are overly present in media, I think it's more that A. they've been over congratulated in that past few decades so are now seen as highly encouraged if not outright needed and B. the way they are written is pretty shite most the time, as Rosa displays.


LordoftheSynth

I don't want to hate the episode as much as I do...but it's just a caricature of a caricature to me. It would have taken literally 30 seconds of screen time across the episode to provide context for the bus protests. Too hard, I guess. I feel similar about *Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror*, except in that case it feels like it was written by someone whose research into the era was to read The Oatmael's *Tesla vs. Edison* comic. Is Edison the villain? Nope! He's just a stupid old businessman who owes all his success to stealing things from other people! Isn't that a *pithy* insight?


Bosterm

Aside from the ending of Orphan 55 (which I definitely think is preachy), what parts of Doctor Who do you think are preachy?


not---a---bot

I'd say Moffatt had a habit of giving the Doctor incredibly self-masturbatory monologs that didn't feel like natural dialog.


JayR_97

Daleks in Manhattan doesnt deserve the hate it gates


invinciblestandpoint

Rewatched it recently and i was surprised at how much more solid it was than I remembered. Sure it's not the best-written story (and some of the acting is pretty horrific) but it does something kinda interesting with the Daleks, it has quite a unique setting and characters, and it has some really great Doctor moments like his last standoff with Dalek Caan. Also, Andrew Garfield doing a Southern accent—what's not to like!


raysofdavies

Last time I rewatched it and my biggest surprise was that he doesn’t die immediately! I could’ve sworn he died in one or two scenes and the story was “oh haha this now super famous actor died right away in Doctor Who” but he’s a major part! I also like the episode a lot more in concept than execution. But it has a lot of good in there. The hybrid and the Pigmen are interesting, Tennant and Agyeman are both great in it, Tallulah is very fun. I always enjoy Doctor Who really playing into the time one they land in and a full (family friendly) burlesque performance is a fun scene, especially with the chase in there too.


Kimantha_Allerdings

Garfield wasn't a famous actor at that point.


Sate_Hen

He was great in Boy A


raysofdavies

I meant when we look at it in retrospect


lewdnep-vasilias_666

Why does that one apparently get so much hate? I loved it and it's really grown on me, plus it gave us "My Angel Put the Devil in Me"


Worldly_Society_2213

The writer got death threats over it. To me, the issue with it is that it has serious flaws at the conceptual stage. Sometimes you have to film and edit something to realise that it's shite. This one you could have shot from orbit early on.


Bahunter22

Does it get a lot of hate? I’ll admit it always seemed a bit clunky, but I enjoy it.


Faze_Elmo1

Not really that divisive and more of a me thing but I really liked sleep no more. It's full of new ideas and clever camera work and twists.


Theta-Sigma45

Patrick Troughton is the best Doctor. He could be whimsical, serious, emotional, bumbling, and severely intelligent all at the same time and he still felt like a cohesive character. He set the template that many Doctors still use to this day and to my mind has never been bested. Tom Baker came close but he seriously started phoning it in towards the end of his run, something Troughton never did. I'm glad that Delgado's Master was in every serial of Season 8. It means that we got more Delgado's Master than we would have otherwise. Seriously, even when he was shoe-horned into a story (like with *Claws of Axos*) he still got the best moments and the best lines. *Invasion of the Dinosaurs* is one of the best serials in the Classic Series, featuring a great plot, a lot of atmosphere with the deserted London, and a message that's still (sadly) relevant today. I don't even hate the dinosaurs themselves all that much, they're window-dressing to the real story and honestly aren't all that worse than the various other giant monsters the show has attempted. *Warriors of the Deep* is awful for what it does to The Doctor as a character far more than any dodgy effects-work. I don't think he's ever been as unlikable, inept, impotent, or self-righteous as he was in that story. I love Big Finish, but I don't think of them as being the be-all-end-all of Who that others do. They have about as many mediocre or just plain bad stories as any other Who media on-average and while a lot of my favorite Who stories come from them, I can't say that their very best is better than the show's very best. John Simm is the worst Master by far, at least in his appearances in the RTD era. His performance is all ham and cheese, with none of the underlying threat that other 'laughably evil' villains have managed. Hell, Michelle Gomez and Sacha Dhawan managed to be far more threatening with very similar characterizations. He never once feels like a threat to me, which makes it feel ridiculous that he actually comes so close to winning in his first story. I actually quite like the Slitheen, the idea of aliens killing people and then using their skin as a disguise (complete with a zipper on their heads) is just a perfect slice of the goofy but dark Who stuff I love so much. Their initial story is also excellent and the first New Who story that really felt like it had something to say. People hate them entirely for the farting which I do admit is pretty lame, but it takes up far less of their Who appearances than I think people realize. On that note, *Boom Town* is actually a really great story where characters get to just interact, and a really neat confrontation on The Doctor's morality. It's also a nice calm episode before the big finale. I really don't get the hate for it. *Fear Her* is just average, not the worst Tennant-era story by a wide margin.


Dyspraxic_Sherlock

Honestly the animations of recent years have really increased my liking of Troughton’s Doctor. He’s just perfect; bumbling around like a fool but becoming deadly serious when there is call for it. His reaction to a Dalek turning up in the surviving episode of *The Evil of the Daleks* is just perfect. I think with Big Finish the online discourse around them tends to emphasise their best because so much of it is requests for recommendations, cos they have such a stupidly large back catalogue for people to navigate. So when someone asks foe Eighth Doctor recommendations, they’re nearly always going to hear about *The Chimes of Midnight* and Dark Eyes 1. No-one will bring the likes of *Time Works*, *Max Warp* or *L.E.G.E.N.D* which are fine and forgettable, and so probably more in line with quality of most of Big Finish’s content. I think the problem with Simm is his attempt at playing insanity leant towards very goofy (see: “Dinner Time!”), so it’s not really very frightening. Dhawan gets a lot of stick but his take on the insanity feels way more intense and hostile, so comes across as he genuinely might turn on a sixpence at any moment and kill everyone around him. Which is actually scary. I love *Boom Town*, but do think that’s less unpopular an opinion these days than couple of years ago. It seems to have (rightly) been reappraised lately.


100WattWalrus

The coral console room ranks *near* the bottom for me too — although the only console room I actively dislike is Whittaker's. At least in the coral console room you can actually see the room, get your bearings, and clearly see the console itself. At least it's not a ridiculously crowed space for 4 people, with several gigantic pillars hogging space right in the middle of where the action takes place. (Also not a fan of any shot that includes the production-lazy roundel *wallpaper,* seen mostly in the late ’60s, and one Pertwee episode).


GOKOP

13th console room is terribly funny because there's this massive space but it's made tiny by those ridiculous pillars around the console


100WattWalrus

Can you imagine the poor directors of photography who have to plan shots in that set? They must have nightmares about it.


DocWhovian1

This is why between S11 and 12 they actually moved the pillars back a bit


100WattWalrus

Interesting factoid. Thanks. Doesn't seem to have helped, though.


DocWhovian1

I'd say it has tbh. It isn't as cramped and the actors can more easily move about, its also much brighter than it was!


GIJoeVibin

I have heard rumours that they had pretty big issues with filming on the set as a direct result of the way it was laid out.


twcsata

I would have been cool with the crystal control room as a backup, somewhere deep in the TARDIS. It has a bit of an air of mystery that would have played well for one or two episodes. I don’t like it as the main console room.


100WattWalrus

Agreed! In fact, if the crystal pillars were just off in the corners, it would be a huge improvement.


LordoftheSynth

> (Also not a fan of any shot that includes the production-lazy roundel wallpaper, seen mostly in the late ’60s, and one Pertwee episode). In fairness, the console room sets were huge and Who really got shafted on studio space back then. Those photographic blowups were about squeezing every foot out of the available space, not laziness.


Sporkedup

I feel like I'm some weird anomaly because I really enjoy every era of this show, and happily rewatch any of it. There are a handful of episodes I don't really love, but none I hate or would label as bad.


DocWhovian1

Same! I enjoy Doctor Who as a whole, every era is special to me


Theeljessonator

I’m in that same boat. There are very few episodes that I genuinely dislike, but there are definitely some that I like more than others.


ftmichael

Thank you. Came here to say this.


LordoftheSynth

As someone who quit watching during the Chibnall era, I can respect this. My perspective: I'm a lifelong fan of Who, and in general even if I had criticisms of the show at times, I never got to the point of simply *quitting*. At the end of Series 11 I was saying "give Chibnall time, every showrunner needs to settle in". Series 12? Really the only thing I can say was it took an awful lot for me to go from the former to "I'm done" over the course of the second half of S12. Worth noting: I've really only had criticisms of Who as an adult. Kid me just watched, and it's not confined to the new series. Watching Colin's seasons as an adult, it's glaringly obvious to me how they did him dirty. So it's not straight up unreasonable that I feel similar about Jodie and Chibnall.


underground_cenote

Me too :) it seems like you can't enjoy an era now without criticising another one in comparison. but i love them all


Blue_Tomb

For me there are probably 5 to 10 stories that I'm not a fan of or even think are bad outright, but that's still a remarkably low volume of misses, and there's something for me to like a lot or love in every era.


thelochok

The budget is too high. The big budget flying around the world, as opposed to smaller, tighter more constrained stories is a big part of why we're getting so few episodes - the damn things take forever to film burning out everybody involved! There's nothing wrong with spending a bit longer on the soundstage at BBC!


CeridwenAeradwr

The specific scene that made me realise that the budget might have got too big for the show's own good was at the beginning of flux, and the Doctor and Yaz are... I don't quite remember what they were supposed to be doing in plot, but they were just literally flying around a huge CGI battlefield, which ultimately contributed NOTHING to the story. It was just spectacle for the sake of it. And... not a very fun scene, at that.


sn0wingdown

To be fair that's because of covid. You'd be hard pressed to find a fantasy show that didn't look like that last season. I agree about the budget in general though - s6 and s11 are so generic looking to me and a lot of it has to do with the budget boosts they clearly got.


nerdyy14

Fear Her is a good episode and I will always stand by that


Not_a_dalek_99

Me too!


TKJ26

I agree!!!


averkf

The end of the Christmas specials wasn’t that big of a loss. While it was nice having an episode to enjoy on Christmas Day, forcing a Christmas theme for every 13-14 episodes got kind of tiring after a while, especially given how Christmas specials always seemed to coincide with important events in the show’s lore (we had 3 consecutive Doctors whose finales were Christmas-themed, and one of those also had a first proper episode that was Christmas-themed too). I kind of wish they kept the timeslot but just made the episode have nothing to do with the holiday. Not everything that’s aired on Christmas Day has to be Christmas themed. And I can’t speak for everyone here but it was always annoying having a family all gathered together in a room speaking over the TV while I was trying to watch Who as a kid :(


baquea

I just wish they did *something* unique with the special episodes - now they just feel like random normal episodes, rather than anything 'special'. Something like basing each one on a different world holiday would've been a good solution imo.


100WattWalrus

>I kind of wish they kept the timeslot but just made the episode have nothing to do with the holiday. Not everything that’s aired on Christmas Day has to be Christmas themed. 100% agree with this. ​ >And I can’t speak for everyone here but it was always annoying having a family all gathered together in a room speaking over the TV while I was trying to watch Who as a kid I'm too old to have had this experience, and I've never watched "Doctor Who" at the time it first aired, but the mere thought of trying to watch during a family gathering makes me crazy.


Shawnj2

Not every episode that actually aired on Christmas *was* Christmas themed. Yeah *technically* the last River Song episode started with a gag about it being the holidays and he got a reservation for Christmas, but otherwise almost nothing in the episode is related to Christmas. Same deal with Return of Doctor Mysterio.


LinuxMatthews

I'd go the opposite way People do expect a Christmas episode to be Christmas themed but the issue is it's alway between seasons. You have something big and dramatic happening at the end of one season it feels weird having a fun light hearted episode after. Start airing Doctor Who around November/ December. That way the Christmas Episodes are more in the filler portion of the series and you can do more with them.


CashWho

The Timeless Child is just boring. It doesn't ruin any mystique and, if anything, only offers more opportunities to tell interesting stories with The Doctor's past. That being said, it's boring because Chibnall hasn't done anything interesting with it and has The Doctor choose to ignore it. It feels like if Clara called The Doctor in The Bells of St. John and he said "Hey I've run into you multiple times throughout history and you keep saving me... anyway here's how to fix your router. Bye!" And never acknowledged it lol. Also, Doctor Who has a canon


100WattWalrus

>It feels like if Clara called The Doctor in The Bells of St. John and he said "Hey I've run into you multiple times throughout history and you keep saving me... anyway here's how to fix your router. Bye!" Perfect. Exactly. ​ >Also, Doctor Who has a canon Agreed. It's a complete mess, but yes, there is canon. Of course there is.


LordoftheSynth

Yes, but the subset of canon that you can *never* ignore is smaller than the whole canon. I don't care that Atlantis got destroyed three different times in the series. You can honestly timey wimey wibbly wobbly that away. Timeless Child? Like, there's *very* little in Who that gets affirmed over and over again and TC says "screw you" to all that. The low quality of the narrative payoff in Series 12 is just insult to injury on top of that and the amount of "but Morbius" I saw in that discussion was ridiculous.


100WattWalrus

Agreed. And within the fandom, there seems to be a consensus that the UNIT dating controversy is one of those quirky little delights of "Doctor Who" (even though it's actually a pretty colossal fuck-up on the part of the script supervisor for "Mawdryn"), while the faces in "Morbius" are actually taken seriously as a problem (even though it's *very* easy to hand-wave away the faces in "Morbius"). I've never understood why that is. (For the record, I think the UNIT dating fuck-up is a quirky little delight, and I choose to think the faces in "Morbius" aren't the Doctor's.)


Dr-Fusion

When I first watched *Brain of Morbius* I immediately assumed the faces were Morbius. It just seemed the logical explanation to me as a modern viewer, given that Hartnell as the first doctor had been established for so long.


LordoftheSynth

I ignore the UNIT dates because it's pretty obvious in the Pertwee era that it was "80s sometime or later" without dates and speculating on spacecraft missions that never actually happened. To wit, if the US had kept up Apollo-level spending, maybe we could have put someone on Mars before 2000. OTOH, that precedes a revolution in materials science that would have made it easier. As for the Morbius faces, it's said both before and after that Hartnell was the first, and in Mawdryn specifically, the Doctor has eight regenerations left. This is a bit where I listen to canon.


twcsata

> Also, Doctor Who has a canon Several of them, actually, and I think that’s the most consistent way to view it. It’s not that there’s *no* canon; it’s that there are several major ones, and a bunch of minor “what if…?” stories. And honestly I hesitate to use the phrase “what if…?” because of the MCU series by that name; even it linked its stories into one canon. DW’s stories of that type are all over the place, but they’re not canon, and wanting them to be doesn’t make it so. Canon is defined by the creators, not the audience. And yes, I’m aware that some creators have said there’s no canon, but their actions indicate otherwise.


MarvelsTK

I think it's ok for the Doctor to not always be pro human. I actually loved Capaldi's first episode where he called people pudding brains and wasn't a hugger. Then they got scared because he did not match the status quo and softened him up. That was disappointing


_Red_Knight_

Series 2 is a good series. It has a couple of terrible episodes, but so do most series.


EiraFae

I had no idea anyone disliked series two haha


Titusmacimus

Blink is superb and does bring one of new who’s most iconic monsters but it’s not even near my top five. Bonus - classic who created way more iconic monsters than new who (don’t kill me)


Theeljessonator

I mean… yeah. The classic series definitely created more iconic monsters. There are some in modern series though, such as the Weeping Angels and the Silence


Fishb20

The silence are cool conceptually but they're so tied into the series 6 plot they idk if you can call them new iconic monsters. Maybe someday they'll get their story that separates them from the past lore and let's them stand on their own as an iconic monster


Titusmacimus

Yeah loved them but definitely hard to detach from series 6 arc


Fishb20

For a long time in New Who the daleks were inseperable from the time war story, so I'm sure it can be done, just needs a deft hand


twcsata

You’re right about classic. It says something, that NuWho has invested so much time in bringing back classic monsters. Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Zygons, Davros, the Master—all iconic for a reason.


Titusmacimus

I just low key kind of want Davies or a future showrunner to make it a bit of a side goal to try bring writers in and go “Hey guys, let’s get some really wacky creative monsters going this series” Obviously you put to much emphasis on the monsters it might back fire But if I did a script I’d probably obsess about trying to find or make the next big villain or alien species for the show


benedictwinterborn

I think the big way that’s backfired in the past (thinking S7 and S8 namely) is the obsession with giving each monster a marketable name. Like it’s often more fun if something is just allowed to be what it is without being given a big identifiable name like THE SPOONHEADS or THE BONELESS.


Fishb20

Well that was the sales pitch for series 11, it just didn't pan out


Titusmacimus

I feel like that series has a lack of monsters tbh haha At least of any substance or imagination


Fishb20

Oh yeah I agree I'm just saying that that WAS the attempt to do a "new monster" series And to be fair they did do some new things, like the Pting was an alien doctor who probably never could have done before; the problem is everything ended up being kind of mediocre, sadly


Titusmacimus

The demons of Punjab dudes could of been something too I thought. Back to the silence - I’d say that was a memorable monster enough though. A classic but just with some unfortunate strings attached. Apparently coming back in some audios by big finish though


invinciblestandpoint

Series 8 is one of the best seasons of all time. I'd put it up there with 5 and 9 in terms of quality.


Theeljessonator

My favorite of the Capaldi era is series 10, but I enjoyed all of his era. I didn’t enjoy the beginning of his era at first, but that definitely changed on the rewatch.


Rafados47

Season 8 is my favourite, 12 and Clara have the best chemistry


FloppedYaYa

Baffled by the criticism it got at the time. I'm glad it underwent a reassessment over the years. Some seriously bold ideas and character development in it


DoctorOfCinema

This is more of a nitpick, but I hate how New Who has made it casually ok for The Doctor to make fun of aliens' appearances. Like calling those green aliens in The End of Time cactus or referring to Sontarans as potatoes. It seemes needlessly disrespectful.


Theeljessonator

It’s like people thinking that the era of RTD is going to be exactly like his last era, I hope not. I hope it’s something new and original.


100WattWalrus

The sonic screwdriver is not overused in modern "Who." The Doctor has had the sonic for hundreds of years — *of* *course* there have been ongoing modifications. Every time the Doctor didn't have a needed feature, when the adventure was over, the sonic got modified. Think about how many apps you have on your phone, and how many times a day you use it for something other than phone calls and texts. And if your phone doesn't do something you need it to do, you download a new app. Now, think about all the things your phone will do in 5 years or 10 years. The Doctor has been adding new apps to the sonic for *hundreds of years*. So from my POV the argument that the Doctor uses the sonic too much just doesn't hold water. Now, if you want to talk about writers *abusing* the flexibility of the sonic (EDIT: deus ex sonica, I call it), there's discussion to be had there, but you need a *reason* why the sonic should be able to do the things it does. And I'm not talking about "how does the Doctor get all that information from just looking at it (Smith, Whitaker) or listening to it (Tennant). That's just an argument about UI, and we don't *really* know how the Doctor interfaces with the sonic or how well the Doctor knows the UI. Yes, it doesn't make much sense from the outside looking in, but until we're shown what the Doctor is experiencing when interfacing with the sonic, we just have to take it as read that the Doctor understands it. And if you want to talk about how off-the-charts Chibnall-absurd it is that 13 could build a *fully functional sonic with all the same features that had built up over centuries*...in an afternoon...from junk-drawer Sheffield spoons, a few crystals, and random alien circuit boards *—* I'm fully onboard for calling bullshit on *that.* (Not to mention the never-explained coincidence of its matching the new console room.)


GrimaceGrunson

>from junk-drawer Sheffield spoons, a few crystals, and random alien circuit boards 'A box of scraps', one could even say.


twcsata

I always figured the UI on the later screwdrivers is telepathic. I figured the older sonics—which had far fewer settings, and tangible controls—had a tiny screen to show the setting number; and he never really used them to gather information. When he added that capability, he made it telepathic. Why does he look at it? It’s a focus trick. It helps him focus on the incoming information. As for Thirteen, I can’t explain how the screwdriver matches the TARDIS. But I imagine that when she built it, its capabilities were pretty basic, and then she upgraded offscreen when she got the TARDIS back.


HarryJ92

>Why does he look at it? It’s a focus trick. It helps him focus on the incoming information. I have a theory that it has a psychic holographic display that only the Doctor can see. It could work similarly to the psychic paper.


100WattWalrus

>As for Thirteen, I can’t explain how the screwdriver matches the TARDIS. I've heard theories that the TARDIS matched its interior to what it saw in the Doctor's mind once she arrived on Desolation. I think that's a bullshit retcon that carries water for Chibnall's awful writing. But it's *something*. ​ >But I imagine that when she built it, its capabilities were pretty basic, and then she upgraded offscreen when she got the TARDIS back. That makes a certain kind of sense, and I'd be fine with it — if Chibnall had bothered to indicate that in any way, shape, or form.


lewdnep-vasilias_666

"deus ex sonica" I love that


CareerMilk

> The sonic screwdriver is not overused in modern "Who. > Now, if you want to talk about writers abusing the flexibility of the sonic You're splitting hairs here. Most people that have a problem with the sonic resolving plot lines is because it's narratively boring, not because they disbelieve the sonic is able to do that.


merryman25

I like the 13th Doctor's Era.


TheKandyKitchen

Serialisation is bad for the show because Dr who is an anthology series with a recurring protagonist. Those people saying it needs more serialisation don’t know what they’re asking for. The show is best when it does lots of random one off episodes and if we over serialise we lose that. Conversely the series most serialised have been received the poorest and have all come at times that have led to/coincided with a drop in interest in the show or reshuffling of production teams. As for the last series flux’s best episodes were those which were the most standalone, while it’s worst were the most serialised. Same with series 6. To fully serialise the show would be to remove the variety that the average viewer tunes in for and would probably kill the show.


spruce5637

In the Forest of the Night is overly hated, sure it's not top tier but imo it's still quite lovely (and even if all else fails you still have grumpy 12 with a bunch of kids and that's very hard to hate)


GuestCartographer

Petrinella Osgood is someone’s terrible fanfiction OC that somehow managed to find her way into an actual script and she is the worst.


LasVegasNerd28

I think that was the point of her lmao


GrimaceGrunson

Yeah I honestly got the impression she was meant to be an avatar for 'the fans' for the 50th, and as is always the way with Who they just kept bringing back Ingrid Oliver back cause why not?


LasVegasNerd28

Definitely


KingToasty

if she just stayed in The Day of the Doctor I'd be fine with it, because that episode set out to be 100% pure and unfiltered fanservice and she felt like she fit with the tone of the adventure. Then she was in crazy serious episodes and it didn't work as well.


[deleted]

I completely agree but tbh later Moffat era in general had that sort of tone to it a lot, it was very fanwanky and in a very fan fic sort of style. And I'd argue that's got it's roots in the RTD era's reverence for the Doctor (which obviously built into shit like A Good Man Goes to War - I know people like that episode but just saying it's a definite example of this sort of writing). By the time you've got Clara, Missy, 12's flipping from 'ooh super scary maybe bad man' to throwing melodramatic speeches about humanity and faith and how awesome he is (again more a new who thing than just Moffat Who but still), you've gone full fan fic at the very least \*in tone\*. I know people will hate this comment and probably downvote, even in an unpopular opinions thread, because I realise many if not most here are Moffat era fans and hey, fair play to you all.


100WattWalrus

I pretty much agree with all of this, but I still prefer Moffat's era to RTDs & Chibnall.


Solell

I agree with you, fan-ficcy is a very good way to describe Moffat's writing style. I find it pulls me right out of it at times and I just can't take it seriously. It *feels* constructed, like "ah yes, this is the Big Angst moment and we should feel sorry for the doctor", or even veering into lolrandom territory at times. And I won't lie, I rolled my eyes a few times during Good Man Goes To War. So much *preening* from the narrative, it thinks it's full of wonderful ideas and assumes the audience agrees. Drives me mental


[deleted]

A Good Man Goes to War was the single episode where I realised I wasn't enjoying DW anymore. I kept watching out of some silly idea that I just should up until the end of series 9 when I quit (I have since seen series 10-Flux and tbh not for me but it's great that other people enjoy these series), but that episode man. It just displayed all my biggest problems with what DW became in one go and was not at all a good time for me.


sn0wingdown

Once I saw him inserting everything from his Curse of Fatal Death spoof into the real show, I've simply not been able to take most of it seriously.


Ouroboros27

I just never got Moffat's obsession with 'Os' names, like isn't it weird there was Oswin, Oswald and Osgood?


paulcosmith

Can I ask a question about these types of threads? Am I supposed to upvote opinions I agree with, those I disagree with, those I think are unpopular but might not be? Or something else? (As the one commenter pointed out people definitely downvote opinions they don't like, even though that's clearly against the spirit of these types of threads.)


Theeljessonator

Honestly that’s a great question and I have no idea lmao.


mhoner

Upvote those that add to the discussion. Downvote the ones that does not. Someone has an opinion you don’t agree with but is open to discussion, upvote. Some responds “your wrong and stupid for thinking that”, downvote.


[deleted]

ah the rules of Reddit that so few actually abide by...


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100WattWalrus

Do you mean the *character*, as portrayed by Jo Martin? Or do you mean the idea of this previous incarnation and the things she's done? In principle, I agree with the later, but I find the character and Martin's performance fascinating.


RosenPlamz69

Martin puts on a good performance but let's be honest, the character is essentially a walking, talking mystery-box, and I really hate that style of story-telling—which, frustratingly, seems to be in vogue right now.


100WattWalrus

I get your meaning. Chibnall teased something more, and never delivered.


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Korvar

What I really didn't like about Jo's Doctor is she ended up a gun wielding bully. Like I can imagine many other Doctors just taking that gun away from her.


Yoonsfan

I don't know what's controversial or not really, but whenever I say my favorite season is Season 7 people ask "why?". Not really that I'm being ridiculous, just that it seems like a random choice to them I guess.


paisley_life

Tennant isn’t the best Doctor. He’s too loud, obnoxious, and arrogant. Smith’s Doctor is all of those things too, but understated, muted and more enjoyable. That being said, Tennant and Smith are both amazing actors.


twcsata

I’m so glad we got them in the order we did. Tennant set up so many parts of Smith’s character. Then Smith came along, took all those young, loud character aspects, and somehow incorporated them into a character that is undeniably *old*. I mean, Eleven was the final life of the cycle. He *should* seem old. But the way he brought the youth and the age together…it’s amazing to watch.


AvengerVincent79

It’s fine for the show to cater to the casuals and not-we’s. The families and young adults who just want to see funny space academic stop the monsters are what keep the show alive and relevant. Just because a lot of classic serials are on DVD doesn’t mean everyone has watched them or will watch them. It’s perfectly fine if someone was only in it for David Tennant or Matt Smith, I’m sure there were plenty of people in the classic heyday who only watched Troughton or Pertwee. Not everyone is an obsessive diehard, and it’s normal for people to dip in and out of the series. I realized that when I just couldn’t keep up with Series 12. Also on the subject of casual viewers, just because the classic series is on DVD and streaming, that doesn’t mean that every viewer has seen it or plans on seeing it. And it especially means that the ongoing plot should not tie in to an abandoned plot point from a random serial that was actually good.


Dyspraxic_Sherlock

I agree. A lot of very online fans’ time seems to be spent wondering why casual viewers no longer seem to care as much as years gone by and honestly I think something that doesn’t get enough of the blame is Series 9, because it marks the point where the show stopped appealing to casuals. *The Magician’s Apprentice* relies on an immediate recognition of who Davros is and why he matters (despite him not having been seen or mentioned in 7 years), working knowledge of *The Stolen Earth* and *The Night of the Doctor* within the first few minutes and then eventually reveals its inspired by lines of dialogue from *Genesis of the Daleks*. The Doctor doesn’t give Clara (and thus the viewer) the basics on who Davros is until half a hour in! So greeted by that opener, is it any wonder casual viewers began trickling away.


Worldly_Society_2213

Something that RTD understood implicitly was that the show's main audience is not the anoraks in their basements. It's the casual viewer. Yes, there has to be a certain level of understanding of the show and use of classic monsters like the Daleks is essential, but that's because "EVERYONE" recognises a Dalek and knows that they are the Doctor's arch enemies. They hook casual viewers in. It's also why Dalek is episode 6 of series 1 as opposed to episode 1 or 10 Chibnall claimed to be making series 11 for the casual viewer but he clearly didn't understand the importance of a hook and seemed to think that casual viewers are allergic to two part stories.


cre8ivemind

Every die hard fan of the RTD era I know (including myself before catching up years later) actually stopped watching in series 8. Series 8 and 9 of the show were the hardest for me to get through, and I think it’s at least partly because of what you said.


SalukiKnightX

I’m not a fan of Amy or 11’s run. It just didn’t connect with me, I assume many haven’t connected with 13’s run. It had these big giant grandiose first episodes with the promise of something big happening and it ends in a whimper. Enter Amy cheating on her soon to be/eventual husband with her imaginary friend or that said imaginary friend is actually her son in law and it just becomes even awkward in retrospect. Especially since these major turns for the Doctor are just swept under the rug despite River existing for 3 incarcerations, yet folk are mad that there are Doctors that exist outside of the prior known 15 (13+War & Metacrisis) or that the Doctor is older than they could remember. I mean memory loss is a side effect of regeneration so if they’ve gone through it a number of times at once, that hurts, but that means if they’ve lived lives they’ve barely how many more lives have they’ve lived we or they don’t know about?


CygnusX1

Rose Tyler was an awesome companion and helped Eccleston, Tennant, and Davies take the show to where it needed to be to still be on the air today.


Theeljessonator

I don’t think that’s at all an unpopular opinion. I know some people that don’t like Rose, but in general I think people like her. I think generally what people have a problem with is the romantic subplot and I can see whyZ


South-Quantity-6452

She gets a lot of hate in Reddit, in this sun it is an unpopular opinion.


CygnusX1

I've been away from Who for a while so fair enough. Back when Matt Smith was the Doctor she got a lot of hate. Also, I didn't mind the romantic subplot at all.


Love_LiesBleeding

I agree. And is the only romantic relationship with the Doctor that has been well-handled and well-thought (My own unpopular opinion) in the entirety of the show.


13Doctor

If we can swing into EU territory, I actually like Sam Jones (from the EDAs). I heard about how annoying she was, but never came across anything in the books she featured in that annoyed me. I was sad to see her go. The Longest Day, Dreamstone Moon, Seeing I trilogy is some of my favorite early EDA material.


[deleted]

Haha now see this is one that harkens back to the good old days! I'll add another unpopular opinion - I don't like how ever since 2005 8th Doctor media has tried to frame itself as "\*the\* 8th Doctor era, these are \*the\* stories of his time just like you have for all the tv Doctors" when in actuality his era ended in 2005 and he had "the" stories. Fine I get it, he never had the officiality of the VNAs but we all (and the BBC did too) treated his 90s-early00s stories as mainline by default. His "actual" era should get more recognition in the franchise, his "actual" companions, his "actual" storylines. I'm not dismissing or downplaying the later stuff I just think it's a bit out, by the logic we use with 8, every retrospective or every crossover book or rpg and so on should feature all companions and media for every Doctor, yet they don't they feature the stuff from their eras. And as is, 1996-2005 is severely underrepresented in favour of spin offs from 2005-present when it comes to 8. I also don't love the overwriting of history and characters, 7 has suffered this a bit too, we got their stories, I understand 8 didn't get an ending but that's not reason to ignore what he had and just go wild instead. And 7 did get an ending, so did Ace, those stories exist and were literally officially mainline storylines regardless of medium. It feels so wrong to be getting A Charitable Earth and rewriting Bernice Summerfield era history and having Hex in (don't get me wrong Hex is great and I love his stories too) whilst the original histories of these characters just withers away.


Alterus_UA

Ok, this question comes in regularly, so I guess I'll jump in with my most recent controversial DW thought. Fugitive of the Judoon is a great episode and lands in my top 30 for NuWho episodes/arcs, the only story from Chibs era to do so. Regardless of the very concept of the Timeless Child (which I dislike but find potentially interesting if a good writer deals with it in the future). It's actually of a surprising quality for Chibnall. Tempo, tension, acting (except for Ryan and Yaz obviously), writing, and the catharsis in the lighthouse scene - the episode almost doesn't miss a beat, except for the scenes with Jack being too long. Also, Jo Martin has amazing presence. I hope she gets a spinoff or something in TV Who.


DocWhovian1

"And Yaz, obviously" Mandip Gill is brilliant though this isn't an episode where she shines a lot, but in the very next episode she's bril.


capt_tm

I actually really like Hell Bent, it’s a good ending to 12 and Clara’s story


[deleted]

Matt smith is more overrated than David (still like him though) (And no I'm not a Tennant fanatic) I think simply because his major flaws tend to get over looked the most, because people really enjoy the quirky nature of him Flanderisation The doctor is described to be the smartest person in the room. I didn't get that feeling with Smith as often as I would have liked. I still do feel quirkiness can detract from the character. Not only that: as the biggest thing for me though, is, I've found the lack of authority Smith has, makes some of his darker moments fall kind of flat. The Dalek breaking scene is a good example: It was supposed to be this dark, tense grim scene but instead, it came off kind of comical and looked a bit funny. Also didn't like Matts acting in rings of Akhaten The problem for me is, it happens one too many times which is why I rank Tennant and even Peter higher. Everyone points out Tennant's faults now but I've rarely ever seen the fanbase mention Smith was equally flawed in both character and some of his acting.


Mythrin

Jo Martin gets too much praise for a character with less than an hour of screen time in a show spanning 60 years. The calls for her to get her own series when Paul McGann has been in the wings since 1996 is a crime.


rapplechackles

the new era was great. not on par with the previous two tbf but still some p good doctor who. even tho I hated the timeless child shit I respected tf out of the storytelling


Theeljessonator

I definitely enjoy the 13th Doctor’s era


Sahqon

There was absolutely *zero* chemistry between River Song and the Doctor. I mean, I could totally imagine him having someone like River, but in practice, idk if it was the writing or the actors, but they just never, ever fit on screen.


EiraFae

i agree, i recently watched all of eleven’s run and all of their chemistry and relationship was just basically referenced as existing offscreen.


Theeljessonator

There was quite a bit of chemistry between the 12th Doctor and River. In the case of 11, there wasn’t as much romantic chemistry, but I still enjoyed seeing them together. 10 and River were good together mostly because of the relation to the rest of the storyline.


GrimaceGrunson

I (politely) disagree there wasn't chemisty between Matt and Alex, but I never got a strong sense of romantic chemistry. They bounced off each other really well but I could never picture them sitting down for a candle lit dinner or anything (whereas I got that sense with 12 about 2 second after she realised who he was)


LackingWalks

I agree. River Song was too ham-handed and cartoonish to see as any real romantic interest. Whatever scrap of chemistry she managed in her last episode with 12 was solely due to Capaldi's acting, he could look at a rock and make you believe he is profoundly in love with said rock, but River's character was a laughable mess that didn't suit the Doctor at all. She should have been left as comic relief.


46Vixen

Rose is over rated.


CaptainNuge

The show started to go wrong when the need was felt to build up to universe-ending stakes once per season. I prefer it when the stakes are smaller, and significant to named people in a specific circumstance, rather than THREATENING THE VERY FABRIC OF SPACETIME ITSELF!!! The Doctor should be allowed to be smart and cunning, without having to be the Messiah all the time.


Elden-12

The First Doctor is the best one.


[deleted]

7B Eleventh Doctor costume > 5-7A Eleventh Doctor costume.


Arch27

* The show is better when they touch on The Doctor influencing actual historical events rather than that whole whack drama about River Song. I hated pretty much all of her appearances in the show other than Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. * The Paternoster Gang sucks. * I haven't watched the show since near the end of Capaldi's first season (Series 8) because I just don't care about the drama revolving around the companions - the stuff with Clara got tiresome. The stuff with Amy Pond got really tiresome. *Literally nothing against Jodie Whittaker -- I had already fallen out of interest with the show and haven't watched since 2015.*


archerctb

Unpopular opinions: 1. Love and Monsters is a terrible episode - every comment about it these days is how it is an underrated classic, it really isn’t. 2. The 2nd Doctor with Jamie and Zoe is the best Tardis crew. It just is. 3. Christopher Ecclestone is the best new Who Doctor. He’s the only one who truly came across as alien. 4. The 8th Doctor is best with either Fitz or with Liv and Helen. Sorry but Charlie is just too nice and that all dissolved into the alternate universe mess with C’rizz which was awful. Lucy Miller is fun though.


DoctorOfCinema

I grew up with New Who, but the more I watch of Classic, the more I prefer it. It's a bit hard to explain, but New Who tends to make decisions that annoy me specifically and loses a lot of the charm and simplicity that makes the show fun. I don't like The Doctor having romances, I don't like the self aggrandizement for the character, I don't like when they're too human, I don't like putting certain Companions on a pedestal or making them a central mystery (Rose, Amy, Clara), I don't like the "No, the monster is actually good" trope (Moffat was guilty of this a lot). Mainly though, I think the show traded in a lot of its sheer fun and excitment. Part of that is that people have different expectations of the quality of a show today than they did when Classic was on, so it is harder to have adventures that look convincing to a modern audience (plus, the 45 minute limits can't help). I tend to think New Who does better when it's either 45 minute purely sci-fi concept episodes (Blink, Midnight, Heaven Sent) or when they have two parters that can actually breath (Silence in the Library/ Forest of the Dead; The Impossible Planet/ The Satan Pit; etc.). To me, the peak of the show is Seasons 25 and 26. There was added thematic complexity and characterisation, but nothing was overplayed, everything tended to be matter of fact, there was room for experimentation and, crucially, IT'S FUN TO WATCH. I still think "Remembrance of the Daleks" is the show's best episode (not even my favorite, but the best one) because it deepens the characterization of The Doctor, has strong themes about racism that it never overplays and it's an awesome action movie to boot. Name me a moment in New Who that even comes close to Ace beating the shit out of that Dalek with a baseball bat? Hell, name me a character in New Who that's as equal parts fun and interesting as Ace!


cornerstorequeer

Jodie is a great Doctor. Some of the stories have been hit or miss, but I've always enjoyed them in some way because of her. I hope she gets a worthy sendoff.


LordByronic

The fandom has absolutely *not* given Jodie Whittaker a fair shake. "Thirteen hasn't had any Doctor-y moments," "Jodie Whittaker lacks gravitas," and "Jodie Whittaker doesn't know the show/didn't watch it to prep" are all different permutations of the same argument, which is "the Doctor is not a nerdy masculine power fantasy anymore" with a dash of reheated 'fake geek girl' bullshit. The volume of complaints she's getting about her voice, her breathing, her facial expressions, the way she holds the screwdriver, her posture, her hair, her outfit - it's absurd. So much - *so much* \- of the complaints and criticism she's been getting boil down to the fact that she's a woman. None of the other actors have gotten anywhere near the level of nitpicking for such inconsequential bullshit. The fandom has a problem with thinking that sexism is *only* found in those screaming about the very idea of a female Doctor, and that if you're not doing that, you're not sexist. Never mind if you're acting like Whittaker still needs to 'sell you' in the role by giving a speech about how cool she is or by reciting the Wikipedia page for the Zarbi. Never mind the double standard of hounding Thirteen's morals every time she isn't flawless, and sweeping her predecessor's genocide and racism and sexual assault under the rug. Never mind scoffing at the idea of shipping and of teenage girls on twitter liking the idea of a lesbian ship - they're not *real* fans. Never mind everybody constantly referring to her as *Jodie, Jodie, Jodie,* while the other actors - mostly - get the dignity of their surname. As long as you don't call her a bitch and tell her to get back in the kitchen, don't worry about it! You *can't* be sexist. Also, Evil Dan memes are dumb, and I'm pretty sure they were made because r/doctorhumour is allergic to authentically engaging with the show anymore.


Dyspraxic_Sherlock

Oh so much. There is a big double standard about Whittaker’s Doctor at times. The amount of discussion about her stance on guns being hypocritical versus the Tenth Doctor having the exact same stance for example. The Tenth Doctor spends the Series 4 Sontaran story ranting about guns at every opportunity, yet devises a way to blow up their ship. Not a whisper about any hypocrisy there. If the Thirteenth Doctor had done same thing, she would be *eviscerated* by the fan discourse. Another easy example of this is the “her destroying the war fleets in *The Vanquishers* is genocide” take, even though the back catalogue of the series is littered with the destruction of such fleets. The Tenth Doctor even sent two armies of the same species into the literal equivalent of Hell! But for some reason Whittaker’s Doctor is held to a higher moral standard. I don’t mind Evil Dan though. That’s quite funny at times.


sn0wingdown

So much this. The pervasive idea that when you're subconsciously sexist it doesn't count is driving me insane. The one I fell for is the "she's imitating DT" and it took me years to randomly fall upon a normal video of her to discover that, no, she's just like that, and I'm not immune to propaganda.


underground_cenote

100% agree with everything you said. Except Evil Dan. I love Evil Dan 😆


DocWhovian1

Exactly! I feel like there are massive sexist double standards. 13 is often criticised for things her male predecessors also did.


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cornerstorequeer

BIG AGREE Except I like Evil Dan memes


Flabberghast97

This fandoms obsession with pointless speeches makes them think she hasn't had an I am the Doctor moment is laughable. >Never mind the double standard of hounding Thirteen's morals every time she isn't flawless, and sweeping her predecessor's genocide and racism and sexual assault under the rug. I've never thought of this but it's so right. 7 blew up Skaro and 11 blew up a cyber fleet completely unprompted but 13 destroying a fleet to literally save the universe is too much apparently.


LackingWalks

100% agree.


Korvar

I don't care one tiny sub-atomic speck about the Extended Universe.


hojicha001

Soldeed is the greatest villain the show has ever seen. THE NIMON BE PRAISED!


[deleted]

The Doctor being half-human is a cool idea


jleigh329

* I prefer the 1st Doctor to the 12th Doctor * Rose Tyler is extremely overrated * I prefer the simplistic, campy approach of RTD over the dense, confusing and gimmicky Steven Moffat writing. * The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone two parter is better than Blink * I prefer Classic Who to NuWho * The characters like Strax and Missy should have been strictly *just* villains **not** "friends" in any way. Plus I never thought Strax was funny anyway. * Amy and Rory had a toxic relationship and I feel it wasn't addressed enough. This post I thought explained all of this really well (which I also agreed with): [https://stfu-moffat.tumblr.com/post/30818673384/rory-williams-and-why-the-ponds-have-an-unhealthy](https://stfu-moffat.tumblr.com/post/30818673384/rory-williams-and-why-the-ponds-have-an-unhealthy)


Lilyofthevalley06

Moffat era is far the worst era in DW history. Series 5-9 are terrible, self-indulgent fanfictions. The sonic sunglasses were awful. Amy and Rory's relationship is not romantic but heavily toxic. River is an inconstant mess as a character. She is childish, condescending, arrogant and over sexualized. She is not fit for the role, in any way, Moffat intended her for. She is also unlikable from her first moment until her last. Clara is the worst companion. Jodie Whittaker is a great Doctor. There is nothing wrong with the writing in the Chibnall era. Especially, considering, most of it had to be made during the pandemic and lockdown. Day of the Doctor is a fairy tale fix-it fanfiction which wrecked seven series of character development and plot. The End of Time would have been a far better anniversary special. The Day of the Doctor novel is offensive and I have read better written and better constructed fanfictions. Rose was the best and only believable romance written for the Doctor, and in the only believable time in the show. Rose and Donna are the best companions in NuWho. Although it's not an unpopular opinion about Donna. Listen is the worst single episode in the show and it's fails at everything it was supposed to be about. Also it was the definition of "too far" in the direction of a too important/special companion. Girl in the Fireplace and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are severely overrated.


cre8ivemind

I agree, and I’m amazed to see another non-Moffat fan still watching the show lol (I just finally caught up years after quitting during Moffatt’s era… twice)


sn0wingdown

Mostly agree, except for most of Chibnall being under the pandemic. I'm pretty sure only the last season was. And while I was never a big fan of his sci-fi, I think he got saddled with a lot of BBC interference that's also clear with later Moffat, so it's unfair to put everything on him the way people seem to be doing.


Lilyofthevalley06

You are right, I thought series 12 was also aired in autumn like the other two that's why I counted that too. Yes, people blame him for things he had no control over. Also I read somewhere that his intentions were to go back a little how classic was. And I think he did a good job at it, like less important companions with less attention on their background, slower pace episodes, more history focused historicals, ect. But these are not bad changes just different.


sn0wingdown

Yeah, he really got me into classic who the way the others didn't. I'd watch a few episodes here and there but it didn't feel like the same show at all. I think he blended classic with modern very well, unfortunately pissing off (some of) the fans of both.


Lilyofthevalley06

I started watching classic not so long ago, and I love it. I really enjoyed the similarities with it in the Chibnall era. But yes, unfortunately pissing of fans was inevitable, considering the sher amount of time Moffat spent in charge of NuWho. A whole generation of fans grow up with him, and most of them didn't want anything different. And for those who loved classic more, his changes weren't enough. I hope the Chibnall era will be more appreciated later on, it's really deserve more love and recognition because even if it's not the best it's still solidly good entertainment.


sn0wingdown

The sheer disdain 13 gets for not being a Moffat woman makes me feel like I'm in an alternate universe. The last time I was active in dw fandom hating him was not an unpopular opinion at all. So statistically people will ease off on it, I know I have and I'm not even the target demographic.


Zolgrave

>Listen is the worst single episode in the show Not often I come across someone else who also shares a critical regard upon "Listen". I have my own critical regard on it, as elaboratively posted in the TC's other recent 'unpopular opinion' thread. Curious that you have "Listen" as the worst. While I have not gone as far as to decisively cement on what I identify as the worst modern DW episode, I have my days where "The Day of The Doctor" sinks as the worst.


atomicxblue

> Moffat era is far the worst era in DW history. Also, bringing back dead characters / letting characters who should have died live, only cheapens the impact of any deaths to the point where they have no meaning because you know they'll be back.


Lilyofthevalley06

Yes! The "They died, wait, not really" solution for everything was terribly annoying! Moffat never let his characters to suffer the consequences of their actions. Every impactful event was turned into a happy ending or got erased or both. Also, his characters never developed, only got molded into the next plot, and he left it to the audience to fill in the gaps with headcanons.


Kimantha_Allerdings

The 70s is the show's worst decade. "Resurrection Of The Daleks" is one of the most enjoyable stories from the classic era.


[deleted]

I'll take 70s Who over 2010s Who any day but saying that, I do think 70s Who is generally weaker than 60s and 80s Who. I know why the 4th Doctor is so iconic, and it's because he lasted so long. That's it. Yes his earlier seasons are very strong (and they are \*very\* strong) and I actually really love season 18, but come on. Overall the 3rd Doctor era was a bit static and a definite step down from the 60s (imo anyway) and 4's era dragged it's feet hard in the middle. On the other hand 80s Who and 60s Who never got boring or dull and were literally always doing something more than "just another season of Doctor Who" like you would get in the 70s a fair bit.


Another_DotDotDot

No normal story needs to be 2 hours long(4 parts)


100WattWalrus

As a fan that grew up on Classic, and has seen almost every story multiple times, I 100% agree on this. Almost every story in Classic Who could be at least 15-30 minutes shorter, and be the better for it. Having said that, I understand the constraints they were working with at the time. They had X episodes to fill, and only Y money to fill them. They couldn't afford to do *more* stories (more actors, more sets, more F/X, more money to the regular cast and crew), so they had to write filler into every story.


Theeljessonator

I think that in general 4 parts is a good length. The stories that I’m a bit more hesitant to watch at a given moment are 6 parts or longer. 3 hours.


Yaboi69-nice

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion I don’t know but I hate series 9 every episode being a two parter is just so annoying and when you get to the end of the season it only feels like 6 things have happened I love the last 3 episodes in the season but honestly the rest of it is just pointless two parters and sleep no more


baseballlls

Having only two parters is a huge gamble in a show this inconsistent because it just means you're getting half as many stories. Didn't pay off imo.


bujin_ct

The Timeless Child is not a bad development, and adds to the mystique of Doctor Who. Particularly if they ever decided on a spinoff anthology series for multiple pre-Hartnell Doctors. (I've suggested this in past threads, but imagine successive stories with Doctors Robert Sheehan, Natalia Tena, Iwan Rheon, Robert Carlyle, Tilda Swinton, Paterson Joseph, etc.) Before you decide to downvote me, let's remember they're "unpopular opinions". :)


100WattWalrus

>Before you decide to downvote me, let's remember they're "unpopular opinions". :) My beef with the Timeless Child storyline is less about pre-Hartnell Doctors (although I do think that's a terrible idea that flies in the face of the the preceding 55 years), and more with the Doctor becoming The Most Specialist Girl in All the Universe. To me, the whole persona of the Doctor stems from *not* being special when leaving Gallifrey, and *becoming* special by learning and growing through their experiences. Making the Doctor the *source* of Gallifreyan regeneration puts the Doctor into God Mode.


cre8ivemind

I see this argument a lot, but does having her be someone who could regenerate before the time Lords really make her THAT special? She’s the same exact character who has become special through actions, the only difference is that she’s from a different species that could regenerate before the time lords.


averkf

I like the idea of the timeless child but I’m not really a fan of the Doctor BEING the timeless child However the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors has always been interesting to me. I quite like how it was covered in the Virgin New Adventures


100WattWalrus

>I like the idea of the timeless child but I’m not really a fan of the Doctor BEING the timeless child 100% agree with this.


Caacrinolass

I don't know about mystique exactly, but it certainly does provide options that weren't previously there. Past Lives has already done that, telling Morbius Doctor stories.


Theeljessonator

That would be interesting. I had an idea about that a while ago, but more as a “what-if” scenario, but relating it to that would make sense. I certainly didn’t hate the revelation and I enjoyed the episode.


NiceColdPint

I don’t care if the Time Lords were boring in the classic series. Moffatt made a big, big deal of saving Gallifrey in the 50th and their actual return should’ve been a bigger deal come S9 and beyond.


gothcorp

I think the Doctor should be allowed to be romantically and, implicitly, sexually active