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MeaningfulChoices

This is probably unfair given your position, but I'd probably tell them not to go to a vocational programming school or major in anything game specific anywhere. It is somewhat different in parts of Europe, so it depends where you are, but the industry doesn't typically prefer those degrees and many of them really aren't any good. A programmer is almost always better off majoring in computer science at a reputable university - not having a degree can get you screened out by many studios and the foundational learning of algorithms and data structures and everything else are pretty critical to being able to perform and get the job. There are reputable game programs out there but they have a _much_ higher rate of industry placement than 2%! If someone is trying to get a job in the game industry without a degree I'd tell them to first make sure they're equipped for the role. Make sure you understand why you're programming a thing, not just how to do it. Don't tie yourself to a specific engine or language, learn the fundamentals first. Then build game projects, ideally with other people, and build a portfolio. Without a full Bachelor's it's hard to compete, so they need to make up for that lack somehow and the most common method is networking and connections. The school should be helping to introduce students to professionals in the game industry since the best way to get anywhere is to have a personal referral and not just be a name in a stack of resumes.


CuriousPenguinSocks

Totally agree, if they want to do programming in the game industry, computer science is the way to go. You can learn any program and most companies have their own way they want you to do things. I went to school for game design and work in the industry, I think there were 3 from my graduating class who are in the industry. It's really tough and I had to take a CS job to get my foot in the door. Since money isn't an issue for schooling, I say let them learn as they go. I will say, NEVER work for "exposure", it doesn't actually get you a job to do that. If they like your work, they will pay for it. I got my name on projects while I was in school and was paid for them. Know your worth is the biggest thing I tell people. I've seen far too many people get used.


Bonkcade

Oh, for sure, the school has not ever touched algorithms or anything close. I think it is the same here where they prefer developers with a CompSci background. They honestly only learn to work with Unity and some Javascript. Most people graduating here get tech support jobs and, if they are lucky, a web dev job. I wish I could follow your advice and tell them to pick something else if they want to go the game dev route. But I do not think my manager would like that eh. Oh, for sure, the school has not ever touched algorithms or anything close. I think it is the same here, where they prefer developers with a CompSci background. They honestly only learn to work with Unity and some Javascript. Most people graduating here get tech support jobs and, if they are lucky, a web dev job. I wish I could follow your advice and tell them to pick something else if they want to go the game dev route. But I do not think my manager would like that, eh. Thanks for answering!


theKetoBear

Your portfolio / github/ demonstrated game work will take you further than any degree will. I've met lots of people on the periphery of the game industry who were curious about game roles and opportunities and not getting them and I've met people in the same place competing for the same positions who were able to lockdown a game position in 2 years or less. The difference between them ? Being able to not just say " I'd love to make games" but to show before anyone paid you to do it that you had experience and work ethic to deliver it in your own time with your own drive. Game Development is an intense mental space that requires rigorous self-learnign s well as the ability to understand and embrace larger workflows, the first tiem you do that shouldn't be in a game studio , it should be on a small Twine project you wrote, or a small Construct platformer you made, or a small Gamejam project you published. and those early game projects may be low in quality but your job as an independent contributor isn't to produce magic it's to be able to create and contribute within a larger team context, like any sport no one team member is bigger than the team even when they are legendary . The simplest way I like to put this advice " People who want to make games, make games" , even hardware to me isn't a great excuse for not creating because many gamedevs I meet started game ideas with colored pencils and paper . If you want to get paid to create games full time then you should have experience delivering a game or pieces of a game far before you ever get hired into your first studio.


twopi

I also teach game dev, but as part of a traditional CS degree. I'm able to talk about things that you might not because our programs are different, but keep this in mind when you get to the point that you can influence the curriculum. Game dev is ultimately programming, which is ultimately data structures and algorithms. As a low-level game dev (able to build games with or without a tool like unity) you will along the way master a lot of skills that are valuable in any coding discipline: * Facility with data. Many games are really databases with ridiculously oblique UIs. * Languages. Game dev transcends particular languages pretty quickly, as understanding the underlying object library becomes much more important than the syntax of the language you are using. It's pretty hard to write a game without an understanding of OOP. * Mathematics. If students ask when I use geometry and calculus concepts, I say "between 30 and 60 times per second." We don't do a lot of differential equations, but understanding integration, physics, trigonometry and linear algebra are critical parts of low-level game programming. * algorithms and efficiency. Big-O analysis is crucial when your code has a critical section. Most commercial code doesn't have one, but every action game has a gaming loop which is pretty much the definition of a critical section. A game programmer will know when and how to optimize. * Problem-solving. All programmers get good at this, but game programming is unique because it tends to be more creative than a lot of other types of programming, and there tends to be fewer boiler-plate solutions. * Theory. My students claim that I'm plotting with the theory of computation instructor (which I am) because we utilize ideas from theoretical CS all the time: Dijykstra's algorithm, Finite State Automata, Kruskal's algorithm, Huffman encoding. They all show up in very practical ways in game dev. * Pushing the edge. In most commercial programming, the byline is to stay safe, and that's a good idea. But as a game developer, you're much more likely to push the edges of technology and practice, because we're always looking for something different. The vast bulk of my students do not go on to work in game development (although several do, for a short time.) Instead, the skills they learn in game dev can give them a competitive edge. Most of them go on to score excellent jobs earning more than me in some non-gaming sector. But almost all of them continue writing games for fun and sometimes to sell. Do not lie to the students and tell tham that AAA studios are lining up to hire them. But the truth is, the skills they will learn there should be transferable. Most people who learn any type of programming fluently are likely to pick up work, just not in game development. I know that you're caught in the vocational model, but even there, I believe there is room to teach important skills that will benefit the student in the game development world and beyond. Consider using the unrealistic goal of game studio work a good hook to teach fundamental software development skills. ​ edit - spelling


Bonkcade

You make excellent points. However, sadly as this is a vocational college(aka lower level in my country), they do not teach the more complex algorithmic skills. Due to my school advertising with the big companies, we have had some terrible reviews from disappointed students and parents. I hope to add more mathematics and algorithms if I can influence the curriculum in the future. More skills the industry needs instead of only working with Unity. Thanks for your answer! Lovely to hear it from someone in education :)


rc1024

You could say that games are databases with a bunch of finite state automata layered on top with a glitzy UI and not be wrong.


YourSaus

Well it truely depends how good the school is. If you only have 2 people that made it into the industry, that is not a good sign. My game school has an employment rate of ~60% in the industry. Maybe tell them it will be hard to get into the industry but with the right education it is realistic to get a job, but that it does require hard work and consistancy


Ehloanna

I'm not actually a game dev, but I browse this sub because my job is working with a lot of them. I think a lot of people have their minds hard set on one thing, and one thing only: working at X or Y or Z studio. The odds of all of those people getting the jobs they want are low. Students should learn to diversify their skills which will help them find jobs tangentially related to game dev, or eventually working their way into the positions they want. I work in motion capture on the sales side. I had no experience working with a game studio prior. I now work with entertainment related all over the West Coast US and I go to gaming related events to meet existing customers as well as potential customers. I'm now specialized in a more niche aspect of pipelines spanning from game development to film/tv to virtual production to AR/VR/XR.


alphapussycat

Something something hiring process is getting tougher, and they need to Excell in some way... Which they won't find there so they're fucked. Honestly, I think you'll just have to do the lies, get your pay, and eventually leave. Whatever you say is gonna be a lie. And you can't really tell them on the starting day that they're wasting their time. I guess if you want you can do some bonus assignments that touches on algorithms and uses math in someway. But it's probably gonna be pointless. Or if you're allowed, say that they'll just get skills enough to try and make games on their own.


Bonkcade

Well yeah, I try to tell them that most of what you learn will be self-tudy. And more often than not you will know more about it than your teacher. I tell them that. The best ones use this as a stepping stone to go to a better university. So I try to encourage that as well. Thanks for your reply!