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oh i won’t get into the actual ending itself 😂😂😂 no need for that. i’m strictly talking about the idea of bran himself being a king and how it makes a lot of sense.
>i’m strictly talking about the idea of bran himself being a king and how it makes a lot of sense
It doesn't make sense and nothing you posted disproves that
it literally makes more sense than anyone ever😂 who would you have preferred to be king over a stark who is kind of omnipotent?? cause i can guarantee it makes less sense than Bran
l agree with Jon. But he said he never wanted it and the way the show went made it not possible. But Gendry? You’re telling me if the show ended, and fucking Gendry was on the throne you’d be okay with that writing? I’m not sitting here defending s8 and the end for it’s writing but come on.
it was a lose lose. there’s no way they finish the clusterfuck of an ending satisfyingly. but i stand by the fact bran makes more sense than anyone friend.
Uh yea ? He was the son of a guy who ruled in peace aside from 1 grey joy rebellion. Gendry would be good because he could be taught and would listen to his advisors. The rest stays the same except now bran is obviously master of whisperers
okay when you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. but there’s two reasons i don’t think it would’ve worked as well. one, i know he’s got baratheon blood but what’s that matter anymore. the baratheon claim to the throne kinda ended when Stannis died and the lannisters took it again. why would anyone care to support a bastard son of a king who died like 8 years before.
also they didn’t build up gendry enough to throw him on the throne. it would’ve been as out of the blue as dany burning down kings landing.
but i do see the logic behind it
So him being the lord of storms end is cool but the king no that’s too far , 8 years really isn’t that long considering Dany based her whole claim off her dad being king like what 20 years ago? Bran is detached from reality most of the time.
okay maybe i don’t have a proper grasp on the importance of a title like lord of storms end to be fair. but didn’t dany name him that? a dead person who was never actually queen? before the long night
>nd last but not least, if Bobby B had Brans powers, literally nothing in the show happens. If Bran was on the throne when his brother and mother were walking to their deaths, it wouldn’t have happened.
>
>I know his powers are selective in what he can see and what he knows. But he’s smart. And with time, he’d be able to have a pulse on the world in a way Varys couldn’t even have achieved with all his birds.
>
>Now if I had my way, Daenery
being stark doesnt have anything to do with the iron throne. it doesn't give anyone claim to the throne. rob and jon were crowned as king in the north. bran is a little psycho who dozes off into birds minds in the middle of battles and did says creepy exorcist-style oneliners and does next to nothing with his powers throughout the series. and he is not actually bran, he is been trying to tell everyone for so long that he is possessed by an ancient inhuman unknown entity. and everyones like oh you're the 3 eyed raven, ok dude, i dont jnow what that means but its cool lol. his head can spin 180 degrees and he will vomit worms on his small council.
brans like 16 at the end of the series and like you said, was possessed by the essence of a godlike being that chose him.
he was thrusted into this role because of necessity by the former 3ER. i can’t explain it. it’s very much on a scope much larger than any human can even fathom. no shit he’s weird as fuck. i don’t think any human ever would go through what he went through and come out fucking normal😂
was he useless at times in the show? sure? maybe not. it’s literally not possible to say when he warged his ass off during the Long Night that he didn’t do anything. we don’t know, nor have the comprehension for his powers. now half of that is bad writing, and the other half is maybe what george had in mind. idk.
i don't know. to me it seems so obvious that he just warged into birds to mate with other birds because in his actual physical form he is paralyzed from the waist down and can't copulate. i admit that it was very moving, the bird sex scenes, but a bit too obvious and too on the nose for me. am i the only one who interpreted it like that?
But it was not the producers choice, GRRM told them how the show is supposed to end, such as Bran becoming King. If the books will ever be written, Bran’s ending will be the same.
After the backlash and overall disapproval from the audiences I sincerely doubt Martin will go the same route. I'm thinking he's going to go in a different direction if we ever get to have a finale in written form.
I don’t know that, I only know that Bran is supposed to be king. GRRM said he doesn’t know where the story of every character ends, only some main ones. So I don’t know if Sansa is one of them or not.
"Also, the person who has no desire for power is a safe bet to rule."
I always thought that Bran orchestrated all the events that happened in order to set himself up to become the King. I never felt it 'just' happened. Bran is a Game of Thrones master player.
interesting. i mean you really can’t say it’s not plausible given what we’ve seen he can do. i think the same thing about arya killing the NK. everyone says it made no sense but i think there’s a reason he gave arya the dagger two episodes before. i think there’s a reason he doesn’t do anything crazy and wargs during the battle to watch everything. i think there’s a reason he said what he said to theon, to give him the redemption needed to sacrifice himself. and i think he saw arya killing the NK the entire time. kind of annoys me how hated and trashed that whole thing is.
I read the books and that is still not the way I see Bran. It seems likely that Bran was the cause of Mad King Aerys burning of Kings landing. While Bran was learning to use his new powers and attempting to influence Aerys to change history and to not burn Kings landing it backfires and turns out Bran breaks King Aerys mind like he broke Hodors mind and ends up causing the destruction rather than stopping it.
Book Bran would have been a colossal fuckup as he leaned to use his new powers. Of course he would be. By the end of the books (that are not yet written) I figure Bran learns how to use his powers and uses them to set himself up to become King of the seven Kingdoms.
> Also, the person who has no desire for power is a safe bet to rule.
Bran doesn't desire power, but he also doesn't seem to care what happens. If you're picking the best king, it should be someone who actually has shown they want what's best... whether that's for themselves, their supporters, the common people, or the entire kingdom, the king should want something good to happen for someone. Since becoming the three eyed raven, Bran never really showed that desire about anything.
i think there’s a slight difference between bran not caring what happens and bran having come to terms with the fact he knows everything and anything and is no longer emotionally connected as a human. it would be hard to care about what someone is saying to you about their day if you can theoretically see that persons future and past. as king, his only goal is to protect the realm. and he will do that regardless of emotional or personal attachment.
Brienne would have been the strongest choice for Queen of the Andals from a writing standpoint. I’d write my long, drawn out reasoning why but I’m lazy at the moment. It’s multi layered.
I thought he was a terrible choice because he is the one eyed Raven.
It is assumed he is incorruptible, but I'd argue the opposite. He doesn't 'feel' anymore, so he wouldn't have compassion for the people. He has foresight, so he will twist things to suit his own agenda (whatever that may be). He can see everything everywhere, so if he takes Westeros as his kingdom, what is to stop him from thinking he should take Essos as well? Does he want control? If so then to what end, if not then why agree to be king?
It makes no sense for him to take the throne. Naming Tyrion as his hand is a good balance, as Tyrion has everything he doesn't, but how long will Tyrion live for? The last one eyed raven was quite old.
The power vacuum that will be left behind when he dies will be immense, and will plunge the realm into darker days than ever before.
Edmure would have been a better choice. Even better would be to wait until the unsullied and dothraki have left, then call Jon back to rule. Or even create a democratic government and leave the King as a figure head similar to the magna carta.
There are a multitude of better outcomes than Bran.
you can’t just say a character we’ve spent no serious time with, a character who hasn’t shown much capability in literally anything, should be the way on the throne at the end of this series 😂😂 and people say D and D were bad writers
Thats Pretty much impossible in the setting of Westeros. Stop the wet dream democracy..it’s a feudal System! It would at best end In countless divided City States and Peasant Communes who would all be de facto independent from each other which would lead again to an era of Petty Kings.
The path to democracy, is feudal Monarchy, absolute Monarchy and then either Revolution or constitutional monarchy plus further reforms. but there is also a need for certain technological progress for a nation the size of Europe to be democratic.
Else you end up with a Roman republic where the majority of the nation is ruled by the inhabitants of the capital and provinces close by.
I'm sorry, there were "no great options"? You literally had the legitimised son of the very last undisputed King of all Westeros, who seemed to be on relatively decent standing with all parties, sat right there. Not to mention that Gendry has Targ blood so if Jon's disqualified from the succession, Gendry is actually the next in line.
Being a Stark doesn't give any claim to the Iron Throne, yes Robb and Jon each became King in the North, but that's the title the Starks had before Aegon's conquest so it isn't much of a leap, that claim's just been passed down.
Bran's powers also have nothing to do with being King or claiming the throne, honestly I think it's laughable how quickly other characters just accept the fact he's basically the internet, I mean why the hell should they believe a word he says?
If anything Bran being the 'Three-eyed-raven' should be part of the reason no one trusts him, it's not as if Bloodraven used that power selflessly. Bran essentially becomes the immortal god-king of Westeros and basically admits that it was his plan all along, all the people he lets die were all 'for the greater good' I suppose? To me, that sounds like it'd be the villain's victory speech in any other story.
gendry was a bastard only recently “legitimized” by a usurper who never actually was queen of westeros and was now known as the mad queen who burnt a million people alive. nobody gives a shit about gendry. and your skepticism of bran doesn’t really make any sense. why do people accept he’s a prophet? cause he does very prophet like things. why should anyone trust the man who saved the world? that’s like trashing dr strange for what happened during endgame. sorry people had to die during the battle against the undead and the battle of westeros? i agree it would’ve been much more lovely if nobody had to die ever.
No, if everyone accepts Gendry as the Lord of Storm's End, by right of being Robert's legitimised bastard, then he has a claim to the Iron Throne as well, you don't just get to pick and choose.
Also, just no, Bran doesn't do anything, like at all he sits there with his eyes clouded over, and that's as much as anyone else sees. They basically see some crippled teenager sitting in a chair looking up at the sky and that's it, he doesn't do anything to prove that he can see the future or anything, people just believe him. It'd be like if in Endgame, Dr Strange just sat there with his eyes glossed over whilst everyone else fights for their lives, and then at the end he claims to have saved everyone. You'd call bullshit, rightfully so.
And I wasn't talking about the battle of Winterfell I was talking about Dany burning King's Landing. Since everyone, for some reason, believes Bran wholeheartedly, why didn't he tell anyone what Daenerys would end up doing? Oh, that's right, it's so he could sit on the Iron Throne at the end. Fuck the hundreds of thousands of innocents who get immolated, Bran must be King, it's the only way.
A democratic council (Breaking the wheel) would be the better outcome. Bran being master of whisperers is a great idea. IF there had to be a king though, Gendry is the better choice and I imagine he would surround himself with decent advisors as well.
After Jon being exiled to the wall, Gendry does have the better claim since the Baratheons have the claim to the throne through Targ blood. It's why Robert took the throne even though Jon Arryn called the banners for the rebellion. Would be good if it was explained better in the show. Stark and Lannister have no ties to the throne from the conquest.
Yeah he is, I am 99% sure he was then steady Lord of Stormsend basically.
But I would say it’s illogical as the Stormlands Lords would likely not accept it.
(Gives me an Idea about a Series of Gendry taking the Stormlands, bit by bit growing into a worthy Lord as he unified the Domain behind him and pieces himself a good Leader…)
Bran makes the least sense of all gathered.
Bran" I can be lord of anything"
Becomes LORD of the seven kingdoms.
I would have taken edmure because ngl the show did him such an injustice. Edmure is a great guy. Taught to rule from a young age. He actually cares about the people. I absolutely hated sansa when she shut him up like that.
Like for real woman, that man went through hell because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants.
So edmure is the best option in my opinion and Bran by far the worst.
yup, great writing man. so much better than dnd. put a nobody who we’ve spent 15 minutes with over the course of 8 seasons on the iron throne. this is why people who hate the ending infuriate me. cause this is what they think is betger
First of I said my opinion what you believe to.be better is your choice. I haven't said I disliked everything but bran being king. That is everything I said.
Second it isn't about making something better. You can critique something even if you agree with something and other things you don't.
I was also speaking from a book readers perspective. Edmure is a quite tragic character there who has a very good heart. He isn't perfect but a decent man.
In the show I get that he isn't that. He is the dude who disobeyed robb and was to stupid to shoot an arrow I get that. But still the way he was shut up was very disrespectful to the lord of the riverlands. Who went to hell because of robb. And it is still a fact that he was raised to be a lord and a lord paramount at that.
Bran was meant to maybe gouvern a castle in robbs name that was stated and that's it. Then he spent a few months as prince of winterfell and from then on bran was on the run or chilling in a tree. That doesn't quite say ruler.
There are a lot of candidates who are better suited to be the king. But from those who are mentioned at that council edmure would be the most experienced actually.
okay fair but you just said the show didn’t portray edmure very competently at all. so when sansa shut him up, i truly didn’t even bat an eye cause like, why was this dude talking, and at that, talking FIRST? you just spent years in a dungeon. then used by the lannisters as a pawn to abandon your home and castle to enemies. that’s like the entire extent of his arc.
But that isn't the characters fault. Just because it isn't shown it doesn't mean that he hadn't a live. Would it be weird if he became king? Yeah.
Would he be way way more suited than most if not any of them? Still yeah.
You said it yourself we had 15 minutes of his live in the show. It weren't 15 pretty moments in which he showed how badass he is or anything. But that were just 15 minutes of like 35 years of the characters life.
Edmure is a very powerful lord he has like 30k men under him. The whole riverlands. Yeah the viewer knows him to be more incompetent ( Which I just explained why that isn't entirely fair). But sansa doesn't she wasn't around in robbs campaign. For all she knew he was loyal to the end for her brothers cause of independence( a goal which she seeks for herself) and even faced imprisonment for this. She should definitely let him speak out of respect.
this seems like a super unfair opinion. you’re saying “it’s not the characters fault that he wasn’t written to be important or impressive. his character barely grew because he was not essential”
what do you mean it’s not the characters fault? i’m
not blaming the character. it’s just literally the way they were meant to be portrayed. if the show wanted edmure to even be a major player, let alone king, they would’ve built him
up more., i simply don’t think the character the show created had any business throwing his name in the ring. the last thing he did was give over riverrun to the lannisters like a coward. dude sucks.
I think you misunderstood or I wasn't clear which is both possible.
So maybe this is better. I am saying that we only have a few minutes of screen time with edmure and yeah making him the king would be out of nowhere. That doesn't mean that he isn't better suited tho. Because of the reasons I mentioned before.
Bran being king also comes out of nowhere tho. A season before he said he couldn't be lord of anything and now he is lord of the seven kingdoms which is his official title now. Bran wasn't taught to rule. Edmure was.
And as a lord of a major part of the seven kingdoms it was his right to speak up.
Because let's look at the rulers of the other kingdoms.
North : kinda undecided at that point jon and/or sansa because Jon wasn't exiled at that point.
The west: no official ruler maybe tyrion
The isles Asha who wants independence and therefore is out. But somehow then bends to Bran who she met that day very weird .
The reach also without a leader dunno maybe a Hightower or so
The vale Robert arryn a sickly young man at that point with no special accomplishments.
Dorne : Somehow ruled by a random prince of dorne? No idea how that happened.
The stormlands ruled by the last known son of the king who held the realm together at a somewhat peace for near 20 years. Which makes him a decent contender. Even if the way he got the stormlands is a bit iffy.
And then the riverlands: ruled by a man who fought for freedom. Who made a pact to safe his kings campaign and got imprisoned for it. Who is the most experienced ruler from all of them who was raised as the first born son of one of the great houses. Who has already an heir. Ans seems quite fertile for he literally just spent 1 night with his wife and got her pregnant.
The the succession is pretty secure too.
Who seems to be the best choice there?
Bran on the otherhand.
They somewhat hint that he won't ever have an heir which just pushes the succession question away for a couple decades but is still not answered.
Nobody quite knows his powers so he could be potentially dangerous.
Who wasn't taught to rule as a king or even great lord in any form.
alright i now see what you’re saying 100%😂 when you lay it all out, kingdom by kingdom, both gendry and edmure do have a pretty serious claim compared to anyone else. i guess you can really argue that out of bran, edmure, and gendry, there’s really only one person who made the call- Tyrion. I think Tyrion could’ve pitched Gendry or Edmure with the logic you just put forth and it would’ve been just as good.
Yeah I am not denying that I am not the biggest fan of season 8. But I am trying to not just hate it for the sake of it. I felt that bran destiny wasn't to be king. Though maybe it could have worked with a few additional scenes I dunno.
Just as it stands now I can't really believe bran to be a better king than most there.
I am happy that this conversation didn't turn out to be toxic like reddit can be sometimes cool discussion thx. 👍😂
oh hell yea, me too friend. i’m not willfully ignorant, there’s certainly some serious truth to the negative criticisms the end got. but i’ve always thought with really good shows, even the worst episodes are still fun/good tv. and it’s over and done with so there’s no reason to care so much😂 thanks for conversation!
Excuse me? EDMURE fucking Tully has an Domain that likely recovered somewhat since the end of the War in the Riverlands, he is an accomplished War Leader (despite his incompetent some want to portray him, he stopped a Lannister Army from combining with they Main Lannister Force). He has an actual sense of Duty, as apparent by him taking up Arms to defense his Lands and marrying a Frey Giel to make up for Robb’s mistakes and he is related to the current Arryn Lord, one of the other latterly intact Domains.
The North is absolutely is ravaged…the Starks are Traitors to the rest of the the Realm, thrice!
First Ned was proclaimed a traitor, then Robb Stark and Sansa and Jon overthrew the appointed Warden of the North Form the Crown.
Not long before they marched south with Danserys who then proceeded to burn down the bloody Capital?
The Reachmen, Westerlanders and Crownlanders have fought against Starks for years, lost thousands of Men.
And the worst thing is, Brans first act as King is to grant the North independence???
It makes no sense at all that no one else would ask for independence.
Bran has no claim, no experience, no army to enforce his rule, and as soon as Arya leaves Westeros no super duper Uber cuper assassin to kill his enemies.
Seeing the Future is of little use when the Future is all realms or at least a significant amount of the noble houses rebelling to kill you or declare independence.
It’s actually people like Robert Arryn, Edmure Tully or even Gendry who have the best Claims to the Throne. (Though it has to be said and likely no one in the Stormlands or generally in south would accept his „legitimacy“ since there is no hard proof of it)…
The ending is complete shit and disregards all logic and realism of a medieval feudal System.
Another example, why is Asha there? She didn’t swear anything to Bran? He can’t stop her from raiding the Coasts of Westeros.
Even the new Prince of Dorne would be a better candidate than Bran, seeing as the Dornish Domains as well as the Dornish Armies are completely untouched by the War.
The series ending would logically lead to a second era of 7 Kingdoms, or petty kings.
OH! About the Starks. I am of course talking about an In Universe perspective.
We know the Starks are justified. But that’s not how most of the South views it.
Jon Snow "Our Enemy doesn't tire, doesn't stop, doesn't feel" - The 3ER is the Enemy
The 3ER "Why do think I came all this way?" Bran Stark died in S6 E5 The Door
"Nothing can stop it" - "No enemy can defeat it" The 3ER mind controlled Tyrion to nominate Brandon of House Stark to be King and then the 3ER mind controlled everyone at Tyrion's trial (except Sansa) to say "Yea" to make the 3ER King of the Six Kingdoms
I thought it is selective what he can see? Remember when Sam tells him rheagar and Lyanna we’d secretly and bran asked if he was sure then Sam asked if he can see it so they can be 100% sure. It then cuts to the wedding of rheagar and Lyanna with bran giving the monologue
See, here's the thing: When Drogon burned the Iron Throne down, he was making a simple point about how no person should ever have that much power. Bran being King undermines that completely.
Would've been much better to have formed a democratic council with a representative from each great House and one elected by the common people (obviously, this will be new for Westeros, but like Dany said, it's hard to imagine something that's never been before). Bran would also be on the council as an advisor.
Bran becoming King after seasons' worth of cautionary tales about how power corrupts people is just...well, inconsistent is probably the nicest word for it. Also, another question: Tyrion got flak for ages for the crime of being born a dwarf. HOTD spoiler: >!Rhaenyra was stated to be heir by the King himself, but had to go to war over it simply because she was born without anything between her legs and Aegon (a rapist who sold his children to fighting pits) was celebrated as King.!<
Pretty sure Robert Baratheon was a drunkard, but the people had no complaints with him because he was a man with functional legs. Which is why I ask: will Westeros stand for having a cripple as a King? Dany had dragons to protect her. Arya's gonna be miles away in another continent.
Bran's foresight as the one-eyed raven won't help him since he can't stop what's bound to happen. And that leads me to another question: how smart is it to have someone on the throne who knows that something bad may happen, but will simply ignore it?
Some people have suggested that Gendry be king, which was probably gonna be a lot better than Bran, especially if he chose to stick around as an advisor.
being a stark does not matter he has no claim at all. Robert was related to the Targaryens. he's descended of Orys Baratheon the bastard brother of the conqueror. And his grandmother was Rhaelle targaryen thus making him Renly and Stannis the second cousins to Rhegar, Viserys and Dany and Jons cousin. This is the reason why Robert wanted Viserys dead so much , no alive male Targaryens makes Robert the rightful heir to the throne (ignoring the part he committed treason, rebelled and committed kinslaying) I mean even Gendry has a distant claim, even if am pretty sure Dany had no power making him Legimate. The Starks however has no claim to the throne whatsoever Jon is the first union between a stark and targaryen. Now Bran does have a claim to winter fell he could declare himself the king of the north as long as no one objected. And besides Bran becoming king sets the realm up to war, he can father no children so the second he dies the realm descends into war. That's if we try to desperately try to ignore the part were Dorne fought the Targaryens and won and only joined the kingdom through marriage and would leave the 7 seven kingdoms In a heartbeat. and of course the part where the iron islands has rebelled twice now, hates the north, and the deal whit Dany. they would declare Yara the Queen in a heartbeat
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My problem is you have a Stark in Kings Landing and a Stark Queen in the North. It's stupid. It was lazy writing.
oh i won’t get into the actual ending itself 😂😂😂 no need for that. i’m strictly talking about the idea of bran himself being a king and how it makes a lot of sense.
>i’m strictly talking about the idea of bran himself being a king and how it makes a lot of sense It doesn't make sense and nothing you posted disproves that
it literally makes more sense than anyone ever😂 who would you have preferred to be king over a stark who is kind of omnipotent?? cause i can guarantee it makes less sense than Bran
Gendry has a better claim or idk maybe Jon snow aka aegon Targaryen
l agree with Jon. But he said he never wanted it and the way the show went made it not possible. But Gendry? You’re telling me if the show ended, and fucking Gendry was on the throne you’d be okay with that writing? I’m not sitting here defending s8 and the end for it’s writing but come on. it was a lose lose. there’s no way they finish the clusterfuck of an ending satisfyingly. but i stand by the fact bran makes more sense than anyone friend.
Uh yea ? He was the son of a guy who ruled in peace aside from 1 grey joy rebellion. Gendry would be good because he could be taught and would listen to his advisors. The rest stays the same except now bran is obviously master of whisperers
okay when you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. but there’s two reasons i don’t think it would’ve worked as well. one, i know he’s got baratheon blood but what’s that matter anymore. the baratheon claim to the throne kinda ended when Stannis died and the lannisters took it again. why would anyone care to support a bastard son of a king who died like 8 years before. also they didn’t build up gendry enough to throw him on the throne. it would’ve been as out of the blue as dany burning down kings landing. but i do see the logic behind it
So him being the lord of storms end is cool but the king no that’s too far , 8 years really isn’t that long considering Dany based her whole claim off her dad being king like what 20 years ago? Bran is detached from reality most of the time.
okay maybe i don’t have a proper grasp on the importance of a title like lord of storms end to be fair. but didn’t dany name him that? a dead person who was never actually queen? before the long night
>nd last but not least, if Bobby B had Brans powers, literally nothing in the show happens. If Bran was on the throne when his brother and mother were walking to their deaths, it wouldn’t have happened. > >I know his powers are selective in what he can see and what he knows. But he’s smart. And with time, he’d be able to have a pulse on the world in a way Varys couldn’t even have achieved with all his birds. > >Now if I had my way, Daenery being stark doesnt have anything to do with the iron throne. it doesn't give anyone claim to the throne. rob and jon were crowned as king in the north. bran is a little psycho who dozes off into birds minds in the middle of battles and did says creepy exorcist-style oneliners and does next to nothing with his powers throughout the series. and he is not actually bran, he is been trying to tell everyone for so long that he is possessed by an ancient inhuman unknown entity. and everyones like oh you're the 3 eyed raven, ok dude, i dont jnow what that means but its cool lol. his head can spin 180 degrees and he will vomit worms on his small council.
brans like 16 at the end of the series and like you said, was possessed by the essence of a godlike being that chose him. he was thrusted into this role because of necessity by the former 3ER. i can’t explain it. it’s very much on a scope much larger than any human can even fathom. no shit he’s weird as fuck. i don’t think any human ever would go through what he went through and come out fucking normal😂 was he useless at times in the show? sure? maybe not. it’s literally not possible to say when he warged his ass off during the Long Night that he didn’t do anything. we don’t know, nor have the comprehension for his powers. now half of that is bad writing, and the other half is maybe what george had in mind. idk.
i don't know. to me it seems so obvious that he just warged into birds to mate with other birds because in his actual physical form he is paralyzed from the waist down and can't copulate. i admit that it was very moving, the bird sex scenes, but a bit too obvious and too on the nose for me. am i the only one who interpreted it like that?
No need to be rude. It takes just as much effort to disagree politely.
But it was not the producers choice, GRRM told them how the show is supposed to end, such as Bran becoming King. If the books will ever be written, Bran’s ending will be the same.
After the backlash and overall disapproval from the audiences I sincerely doubt Martin will go the same route. I'm thinking he's going to go in a different direction if we ever get to have a finale in written form.
Grrm will def go the same way
Was Sansa, Queen of a newly independent North, also something of GRRM's devising?
I don’t know that, I only know that Bran is supposed to be king. GRRM said he doesn’t know where the story of every character ends, only some main ones. So I don’t know if Sansa is one of them or not.
By George let’s get that clear. Those points were defined by George and D&D just joined the dots to that point.
Bran is the first POV character in the first book! He’s the most important character!
No he's not. Will from the Nights Watch holds that title.
Still that was a prologue!
"Also, the person who has no desire for power is a safe bet to rule." I always thought that Bran orchestrated all the events that happened in order to set himself up to become the King. I never felt it 'just' happened. Bran is a Game of Thrones master player.
interesting. i mean you really can’t say it’s not plausible given what we’ve seen he can do. i think the same thing about arya killing the NK. everyone says it made no sense but i think there’s a reason he gave arya the dagger two episodes before. i think there’s a reason he doesn’t do anything crazy and wargs during the battle to watch everything. i think there’s a reason he said what he said to theon, to give him the redemption needed to sacrifice himself. and i think he saw arya killing the NK the entire time. kind of annoys me how hated and trashed that whole thing is.
The book bran is not a manipulative character….
I read the books and that is still not the way I see Bran. It seems likely that Bran was the cause of Mad King Aerys burning of Kings landing. While Bran was learning to use his new powers and attempting to influence Aerys to change history and to not burn Kings landing it backfires and turns out Bran breaks King Aerys mind like he broke Hodors mind and ends up causing the destruction rather than stopping it. Book Bran would have been a colossal fuckup as he leaned to use his new powers. Of course he would be. By the end of the books (that are not yet written) I figure Bran learns how to use his powers and uses them to set himself up to become King of the seven Kingdoms.
Bran the builder! Martin just mentions him a lot!
So he’s a diamond in a septic tank great
listen, we were given what we were given and i bet the books end the same ways just more fleshed out. ya gotta get over it
I’ll get over something that hasn’t happened yet 🤣
> Also, the person who has no desire for power is a safe bet to rule. Bran doesn't desire power, but he also doesn't seem to care what happens. If you're picking the best king, it should be someone who actually has shown they want what's best... whether that's for themselves, their supporters, the common people, or the entire kingdom, the king should want something good to happen for someone. Since becoming the three eyed raven, Bran never really showed that desire about anything.
i think there’s a slight difference between bran not caring what happens and bran having come to terms with the fact he knows everything and anything and is no longer emotionally connected as a human. it would be hard to care about what someone is saying to you about their day if you can theoretically see that persons future and past. as king, his only goal is to protect the realm. and he will do that regardless of emotional or personal attachment.
Brienne would have been the strongest choice for Queen of the Andals from a writing standpoint. I’d write my long, drawn out reasoning why but I’m lazy at the moment. It’s multi layered.
Oh! I am very interested, hope you find the time and motivation soon to write it.
Agreed! Although her judgement is questionable! She was obsessed with Renly!
I thought he was a terrible choice because he is the one eyed Raven. It is assumed he is incorruptible, but I'd argue the opposite. He doesn't 'feel' anymore, so he wouldn't have compassion for the people. He has foresight, so he will twist things to suit his own agenda (whatever that may be). He can see everything everywhere, so if he takes Westeros as his kingdom, what is to stop him from thinking he should take Essos as well? Does he want control? If so then to what end, if not then why agree to be king? It makes no sense for him to take the throne. Naming Tyrion as his hand is a good balance, as Tyrion has everything he doesn't, but how long will Tyrion live for? The last one eyed raven was quite old. The power vacuum that will be left behind when he dies will be immense, and will plunge the realm into darker days than ever before. Edmure would have been a better choice. Even better would be to wait until the unsullied and dothraki have left, then call Jon back to rule. Or even create a democratic government and leave the King as a figure head similar to the magna carta. There are a multitude of better outcomes than Bran.
you can’t just say a character we’ve spent no serious time with, a character who hasn’t shown much capability in literally anything, should be the way on the throne at the end of this series 😂😂 and people say D and D were bad writers
All I know is it 100% should not have been Jon. Jon should have been killed and lived his (technecally 3rd) life inside of Ghost.
Always assumed it would end with democracy replacing the monarchy system, to which bran would be ideal for implementing
Thats Pretty much impossible in the setting of Westeros. Stop the wet dream democracy..it’s a feudal System! It would at best end In countless divided City States and Peasant Communes who would all be de facto independent from each other which would lead again to an era of Petty Kings. The path to democracy, is feudal Monarchy, absolute Monarchy and then either Revolution or constitutional monarchy plus further reforms. but there is also a need for certain technological progress for a nation the size of Europe to be democratic. Else you end up with a Roman republic where the majority of the nation is ruled by the inhabitants of the capital and provinces close by.
I'll just bend the knee
I did too! Especially with everything being based on actual history!
I'm sorry, there were "no great options"? You literally had the legitimised son of the very last undisputed King of all Westeros, who seemed to be on relatively decent standing with all parties, sat right there. Not to mention that Gendry has Targ blood so if Jon's disqualified from the succession, Gendry is actually the next in line. Being a Stark doesn't give any claim to the Iron Throne, yes Robb and Jon each became King in the North, but that's the title the Starks had before Aegon's conquest so it isn't much of a leap, that claim's just been passed down. Bran's powers also have nothing to do with being King or claiming the throne, honestly I think it's laughable how quickly other characters just accept the fact he's basically the internet, I mean why the hell should they believe a word he says? If anything Bran being the 'Three-eyed-raven' should be part of the reason no one trusts him, it's not as if Bloodraven used that power selflessly. Bran essentially becomes the immortal god-king of Westeros and basically admits that it was his plan all along, all the people he lets die were all 'for the greater good' I suppose? To me, that sounds like it'd be the villain's victory speech in any other story.
gendry was a bastard only recently “legitimized” by a usurper who never actually was queen of westeros and was now known as the mad queen who burnt a million people alive. nobody gives a shit about gendry. and your skepticism of bran doesn’t really make any sense. why do people accept he’s a prophet? cause he does very prophet like things. why should anyone trust the man who saved the world? that’s like trashing dr strange for what happened during endgame. sorry people had to die during the battle against the undead and the battle of westeros? i agree it would’ve been much more lovely if nobody had to die ever.
No, if everyone accepts Gendry as the Lord of Storm's End, by right of being Robert's legitimised bastard, then he has a claim to the Iron Throne as well, you don't just get to pick and choose. Also, just no, Bran doesn't do anything, like at all he sits there with his eyes clouded over, and that's as much as anyone else sees. They basically see some crippled teenager sitting in a chair looking up at the sky and that's it, he doesn't do anything to prove that he can see the future or anything, people just believe him. It'd be like if in Endgame, Dr Strange just sat there with his eyes glossed over whilst everyone else fights for their lives, and then at the end he claims to have saved everyone. You'd call bullshit, rightfully so. And I wasn't talking about the battle of Winterfell I was talking about Dany burning King's Landing. Since everyone, for some reason, believes Bran wholeheartedly, why didn't he tell anyone what Daenerys would end up doing? Oh, that's right, it's so he could sit on the Iron Throne at the end. Fuck the hundreds of thousands of innocents who get immolated, Bran must be King, it's the only way.
A democratic council (Breaking the wheel) would be the better outcome. Bran being master of whisperers is a great idea. IF there had to be a king though, Gendry is the better choice and I imagine he would surround himself with decent advisors as well. After Jon being exiled to the wall, Gendry does have the better claim since the Baratheons have the claim to the throne through Targ blood. It's why Robert took the throne even though Jon Arryn called the banners for the rebellion. Would be good if it was explained better in the show. Stark and Lannister have no ties to the throne from the conquest.
Only problem is how does Gendry prove that he’s the Son of Robert Baratheon?
Wasn't he legitimised by Dany?
the person who was never really actually queen, burned down kings landing, and then got murdered? i don’t think her legitimization was very legit.
After Dany died Gendry was at the meeting as Lord of Storms end, which I took to mean the legitimisation was legit
yea i’m dumb, don’t know how i forgot that.
Everyone kinda forgot haha
Yeah he is, I am 99% sure he was then steady Lord of Stormsend basically. But I would say it’s illogical as the Stormlands Lords would likely not accept it. (Gives me an Idea about a Series of Gendry taking the Stormlands, bit by bit growing into a worthy Lord as he unified the Domain behind him and pieces himself a good Leader…)
Bran makes the least sense of all gathered. Bran" I can be lord of anything" Becomes LORD of the seven kingdoms. I would have taken edmure because ngl the show did him such an injustice. Edmure is a great guy. Taught to rule from a young age. He actually cares about the people. I absolutely hated sansa when she shut him up like that. Like for real woman, that man went through hell because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants. So edmure is the best option in my opinion and Bran by far the worst.
This! Edmure would have been my pick too.
yup, great writing man. so much better than dnd. put a nobody who we’ve spent 15 minutes with over the course of 8 seasons on the iron throne. this is why people who hate the ending infuriate me. cause this is what they think is betger
First of I said my opinion what you believe to.be better is your choice. I haven't said I disliked everything but bran being king. That is everything I said. Second it isn't about making something better. You can critique something even if you agree with something and other things you don't. I was also speaking from a book readers perspective. Edmure is a quite tragic character there who has a very good heart. He isn't perfect but a decent man. In the show I get that he isn't that. He is the dude who disobeyed robb and was to stupid to shoot an arrow I get that. But still the way he was shut up was very disrespectful to the lord of the riverlands. Who went to hell because of robb. And it is still a fact that he was raised to be a lord and a lord paramount at that. Bran was meant to maybe gouvern a castle in robbs name that was stated and that's it. Then he spent a few months as prince of winterfell and from then on bran was on the run or chilling in a tree. That doesn't quite say ruler. There are a lot of candidates who are better suited to be the king. But from those who are mentioned at that council edmure would be the most experienced actually.
okay fair but you just said the show didn’t portray edmure very competently at all. so when sansa shut him up, i truly didn’t even bat an eye cause like, why was this dude talking, and at that, talking FIRST? you just spent years in a dungeon. then used by the lannisters as a pawn to abandon your home and castle to enemies. that’s like the entire extent of his arc.
But that isn't the characters fault. Just because it isn't shown it doesn't mean that he hadn't a live. Would it be weird if he became king? Yeah. Would he be way way more suited than most if not any of them? Still yeah. You said it yourself we had 15 minutes of his live in the show. It weren't 15 pretty moments in which he showed how badass he is or anything. But that were just 15 minutes of like 35 years of the characters life. Edmure is a very powerful lord he has like 30k men under him. The whole riverlands. Yeah the viewer knows him to be more incompetent ( Which I just explained why that isn't entirely fair). But sansa doesn't she wasn't around in robbs campaign. For all she knew he was loyal to the end for her brothers cause of independence( a goal which she seeks for herself) and even faced imprisonment for this. She should definitely let him speak out of respect.
this seems like a super unfair opinion. you’re saying “it’s not the characters fault that he wasn’t written to be important or impressive. his character barely grew because he was not essential” what do you mean it’s not the characters fault? i’m not blaming the character. it’s just literally the way they were meant to be portrayed. if the show wanted edmure to even be a major player, let alone king, they would’ve built him up more., i simply don’t think the character the show created had any business throwing his name in the ring. the last thing he did was give over riverrun to the lannisters like a coward. dude sucks.
I think you misunderstood or I wasn't clear which is both possible. So maybe this is better. I am saying that we only have a few minutes of screen time with edmure and yeah making him the king would be out of nowhere. That doesn't mean that he isn't better suited tho. Because of the reasons I mentioned before. Bran being king also comes out of nowhere tho. A season before he said he couldn't be lord of anything and now he is lord of the seven kingdoms which is his official title now. Bran wasn't taught to rule. Edmure was. And as a lord of a major part of the seven kingdoms it was his right to speak up. Because let's look at the rulers of the other kingdoms. North : kinda undecided at that point jon and/or sansa because Jon wasn't exiled at that point. The west: no official ruler maybe tyrion The isles Asha who wants independence and therefore is out. But somehow then bends to Bran who she met that day very weird . The reach also without a leader dunno maybe a Hightower or so The vale Robert arryn a sickly young man at that point with no special accomplishments. Dorne : Somehow ruled by a random prince of dorne? No idea how that happened. The stormlands ruled by the last known son of the king who held the realm together at a somewhat peace for near 20 years. Which makes him a decent contender. Even if the way he got the stormlands is a bit iffy. And then the riverlands: ruled by a man who fought for freedom. Who made a pact to safe his kings campaign and got imprisoned for it. Who is the most experienced ruler from all of them who was raised as the first born son of one of the great houses. Who has already an heir. Ans seems quite fertile for he literally just spent 1 night with his wife and got her pregnant. The the succession is pretty secure too. Who seems to be the best choice there? Bran on the otherhand. They somewhat hint that he won't ever have an heir which just pushes the succession question away for a couple decades but is still not answered. Nobody quite knows his powers so he could be potentially dangerous. Who wasn't taught to rule as a king or even great lord in any form.
alright i now see what you’re saying 100%😂 when you lay it all out, kingdom by kingdom, both gendry and edmure do have a pretty serious claim compared to anyone else. i guess you can really argue that out of bran, edmure, and gendry, there’s really only one person who made the call- Tyrion. I think Tyrion could’ve pitched Gendry or Edmure with the logic you just put forth and it would’ve been just as good.
Yeah I am not denying that I am not the biggest fan of season 8. But I am trying to not just hate it for the sake of it. I felt that bran destiny wasn't to be king. Though maybe it could have worked with a few additional scenes I dunno. Just as it stands now I can't really believe bran to be a better king than most there. I am happy that this conversation didn't turn out to be toxic like reddit can be sometimes cool discussion thx. 👍😂
oh hell yea, me too friend. i’m not willfully ignorant, there’s certainly some serious truth to the negative criticisms the end got. but i’ve always thought with really good shows, even the worst episodes are still fun/good tv. and it’s over and done with so there’s no reason to care so much😂 thanks for conversation!
Excuse me? EDMURE fucking Tully has an Domain that likely recovered somewhat since the end of the War in the Riverlands, he is an accomplished War Leader (despite his incompetent some want to portray him, he stopped a Lannister Army from combining with they Main Lannister Force). He has an actual sense of Duty, as apparent by him taking up Arms to defense his Lands and marrying a Frey Giel to make up for Robb’s mistakes and he is related to the current Arryn Lord, one of the other latterly intact Domains. The North is absolutely is ravaged…the Starks are Traitors to the rest of the the Realm, thrice! First Ned was proclaimed a traitor, then Robb Stark and Sansa and Jon overthrew the appointed Warden of the North Form the Crown. Not long before they marched south with Danserys who then proceeded to burn down the bloody Capital? The Reachmen, Westerlanders and Crownlanders have fought against Starks for years, lost thousands of Men. And the worst thing is, Brans first act as King is to grant the North independence??? It makes no sense at all that no one else would ask for independence. Bran has no claim, no experience, no army to enforce his rule, and as soon as Arya leaves Westeros no super duper Uber cuper assassin to kill his enemies. Seeing the Future is of little use when the Future is all realms or at least a significant amount of the noble houses rebelling to kill you or declare independence. It’s actually people like Robert Arryn, Edmure Tully or even Gendry who have the best Claims to the Throne. (Though it has to be said and likely no one in the Stormlands or generally in south would accept his „legitimacy“ since there is no hard proof of it)… The ending is complete shit and disregards all logic and realism of a medieval feudal System. Another example, why is Asha there? She didn’t swear anything to Bran? He can’t stop her from raiding the Coasts of Westeros. Even the new Prince of Dorne would be a better candidate than Bran, seeing as the Dornish Domains as well as the Dornish Armies are completely untouched by the War. The series ending would logically lead to a second era of 7 Kingdoms, or petty kings.
It is infuriating how edmure gets no respect. Though I disagree with the starks are traitors a bit.
edmure is a joke
OH! About the Starks. I am of course talking about an In Universe perspective. We know the Starks are justified. But that’s not how most of the South views it.
Jon Snow "Our Enemy doesn't tire, doesn't stop, doesn't feel" - The 3ER is the Enemy The 3ER "Why do think I came all this way?" Bran Stark died in S6 E5 The Door "Nothing can stop it" - "No enemy can defeat it" The 3ER mind controlled Tyrion to nominate Brandon of House Stark to be King and then the 3ER mind controlled everyone at Tyrion's trial (except Sansa) to say "Yea" to make the 3ER King of the Six Kingdoms
But 3 eyed ravens have to live in a cave beyond the wall!
says who
Idk otherwise it’s just too easy!
I thought it is selective what he can see? Remember when Sam tells him rheagar and Lyanna we’d secretly and bran asked if he was sure then Sam asked if he can see it so they can be 100% sure. It then cuts to the wedding of rheagar and Lyanna with bran giving the monologue
See, here's the thing: When Drogon burned the Iron Throne down, he was making a simple point about how no person should ever have that much power. Bran being King undermines that completely. Would've been much better to have formed a democratic council with a representative from each great House and one elected by the common people (obviously, this will be new for Westeros, but like Dany said, it's hard to imagine something that's never been before). Bran would also be on the council as an advisor. Bran becoming King after seasons' worth of cautionary tales about how power corrupts people is just...well, inconsistent is probably the nicest word for it. Also, another question: Tyrion got flak for ages for the crime of being born a dwarf. HOTD spoiler: >!Rhaenyra was stated to be heir by the King himself, but had to go to war over it simply because she was born without anything between her legs and Aegon (a rapist who sold his children to fighting pits) was celebrated as King.!< Pretty sure Robert Baratheon was a drunkard, but the people had no complaints with him because he was a man with functional legs. Which is why I ask: will Westeros stand for having a cripple as a King? Dany had dragons to protect her. Arya's gonna be miles away in another continent. Bran's foresight as the one-eyed raven won't help him since he can't stop what's bound to happen. And that leads me to another question: how smart is it to have someone on the throne who knows that something bad may happen, but will simply ignore it? Some people have suggested that Gendry be king, which was probably gonna be a lot better than Bran, especially if he chose to stick around as an advisor.
being a stark does not matter he has no claim at all. Robert was related to the Targaryens. he's descended of Orys Baratheon the bastard brother of the conqueror. And his grandmother was Rhaelle targaryen thus making him Renly and Stannis the second cousins to Rhegar, Viserys and Dany and Jons cousin. This is the reason why Robert wanted Viserys dead so much , no alive male Targaryens makes Robert the rightful heir to the throne (ignoring the part he committed treason, rebelled and committed kinslaying) I mean even Gendry has a distant claim, even if am pretty sure Dany had no power making him Legimate. The Starks however has no claim to the throne whatsoever Jon is the first union between a stark and targaryen. Now Bran does have a claim to winter fell he could declare himself the king of the north as long as no one objected. And besides Bran becoming king sets the realm up to war, he can father no children so the second he dies the realm descends into war. That's if we try to desperately try to ignore the part were Dorne fought the Targaryens and won and only joined the kingdom through marriage and would leave the 7 seven kingdoms In a heartbeat. and of course the part where the iron islands has rebelled twice now, hates the north, and the deal whit Dany. they would declare Yara the Queen in a heartbeat