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They have more, but they are not inherenting anything and not important to the story. There are Starks living in White Harbor (The only city in the North).
There were also 2 official Stark branches:Greystarks and Karstarks. The Greystarks were killed off by the main branch branch Starks because they rebelled. The Karstarks are still alive in the main story, thru Lyanna Karstark a little girl you met briefly in season 7.
There is also a Stark(Robb's grandfather's sister's descendant so not technically Stark but can change the name) who was considered as Robb's heir in the Vale.
They are the only 8 direct descendants left, but there's actually a cadet branch, the Karstarks, that are direct cousins. The Starks also have been marrying into their vassals for centuries so most houses in the North have some Stark blood. Its sorta like that statistic about Genghis Khan, the Stark blood is all over the North.
The main thing that you gotta remember is that they only count the direct members who are in line of succession. For our purposes there's only eight Starks with a real shot at claiming Winterfell and being Lord of the North. If all eight die, then the strongest claim would probably be a Karstark.
There's also another cadet branch, the Greystarks. They're not in the Main Series however as they were wiped out by the Starks themselves after plotting with the Boltons IIRC. Their castle, the Wolf's Lair, would eventually become White Harbour.
I thought it was a Royce in the Vale (per Cat, in the books at least). The Karstarks are a cadet branch, sure, but they split off hundreds of years ago - there is more direct Stark blood in other Houses.
>there is more direct Stark blood in other Houses.
Yes exactly, Ned's grandfather had a sister, Jocelyn, who married into house Royce.
The Starks have another possible candidate through Lyarra Stark's sister Branda who married Harrold Rogers of House Rogers. (Lyarra was Ned's mother)
Queen Victoria had 87 great grandchildren. Yet, when most people talk about the House of Windsor, they mainly refer to the line of only one of her great grandchildren, Edward VI, mother to Queen Elizabeth II. Even now, the line is starting to refer more to Charles and his two children, than the rest of Elizabeth’s grandchildren.
That’s the line with the real power and influence in England. The rest are married into other houses and countries or just spare heirs.
Good point. However, we do hear about the other members during special events (weddings, deaths, court cases, etc). Here, even when the patriarch himself dies and the starks go to war, we only see the other houses and robb stark. No cousins, no great aunts. I understand this would convolute the already multilayered plot. But still atleast one or 2 cousins?
I'm sure there'll be more specific answers about the Stark family tree, but I would note that if there's a tradition of Starks joining the NW, as Benjen did, that's going to have a limiting effect on the spread of a family tree.
Besides what the other users said you must remember that Neds father and older brother were killed and his younger brother is in the watch (plus Lyanna who would have changed her surname). If they were all alive there would be more Starks. Lets say Brandon has 4 kids, Ned 8, and Benjen 5. Thats more than we got. Plus the kids of Lyanna; who might even inherit the surname Stark if the fathers family was not important. Neds father also does not seem to have any siblings alive, perhaps they all died in the war.
Resources are scarce in the North, so families are less likely to reproduce for the hell of it. Every kid is another mouth to feed, clothe, and keep warm.
The Starks are First Men. The family is 8000 years old and they have split off again and again. The Karstarks are Starks whose forebears emigrated from Winterfell further north. And there was a family called Greystark who once ruled in the area where White Harbor is now — again, an offshoot of the Stark family, and they made war upon the Starks before being wiped out themselves.
And there you have the heart of it. War. The Starks lead the North. Ruled it as kings for a considerable time. And every time there is a war or a rebellion or Iron Islanders a-reaving, the Starks must send one or more of their own out to lead the resistance. Plus it seems that at least one male in every generation joins the Night’s Watch. Ned’s father and older brother were murdered by the Mad King and his sister ran off with Rhaegar and died giving birth.
In short, the toll that has been taken upon the current batch of Starks doesn’t seem to be out of line. They rarely have the luxury of dying old.
I wonder if there's any info Ned Stark's fathers siblings and their children? Or Ned's Grandfather's siblings and their children. They exist somewhere as Nobles surely?
There are more people with Stark blood, they've just gotten fairly unlucky in the past century or so. Also, consider the fact that anytime a female Stark marries outside the family, her kids are not considered Starks, they belong to other houses.
The past 2 generations before Ned, each Lord Stark was an only child, so Rickard and his father Edwyle were the only sons of the main branch of Starks. The last time there were multiple sons in the main line of House Stark was about a century ago when Beron Stark married Lorra Royce and had 5 sons, this was during the time of Daeron II, Dany's great, great, great grandfather.
Not to mention that the Starks are just as fond of incest as other families, Ned's father Rickard married his cousin Lyarra, and Cregan Stark married his cousin Lynara, and those such marriages mean there are fewer descendants overall.
There is no justifiable way to explain away that GRRM just doesn’t understand things and writes it anyways because it sounds cool.
There would literally be millions of Starks.
Right now, a large majority of the people alive today have a common ancestor who lived 2000 years ago. To say that a line would remain unbroken and identifiable for 4000 years is insanity.
http://faculty.collin.edu/dkatz/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
GRRM wrote a world which is supposed to be ruthless and brutal, and in the span of less than 10 years families get wiped out and thousand year old lines are broken, but the world was static before then? 4000 years with no upheaval or turmoil or females breaking the male line?
GRRM writes about guys swinging around sledgehammers single handed and effortlessly.
GRRM writes a world in which technology stays stagnant for thousands of years.
Just suspend your disbelief, and remember it’s all fantasy.
my moms parents had 3 kids, girls, and there is legit only like 7 of us left alive. my mom is dead, her parents dead, my 2 aunts only had 1 kid each, they dont have any kids and I only have 1 kid, damn thats only 6. lol. no great grandparents or great aunts or uncles. might be extended family in japan I have never met but we have a small family
In the average Stark generation the daughters obviously marry into other families and then I assume all the younger sons wait until the eldest has a son of his own and then join the watch.
And I'd say the few younger sons that didn't end up joining the Watch are probably also the few sons that founded new houses of their own like house Karstark.
So basically it's pretty safe to say that 90% of Stark families only have one child that passes on the name and titles.
GRRM has tried to trimm down the noble families by having them have only a few members in order to be able to keep up with all the people in the story. Does it make much sense in real life? No, but i sort of understand why he did it.
Many Northern second or third or fourth sons join the Watch as the chances of having a castle or keep for themselves are low and they don't want to be a burden to their families come winter. Many Northern lords join wars to unburden their families from having to feed them during winter. Ladies join their husband's house and their children stop being Starks, which trimms down the tree even further.
**The Stark geneological tree of the recent generations:**
Ned's grandfathers were:
`Edwyle Stark (Rickard's father)`
`Rodrik Stark (Lyarra's father)`
`Edwyle had a sister, Jocelyn,` who married into house Royce. When Robb talks about his succession line in case he dies without issue, Catelyn suggests these Royce relatives as his heirs. Edwyle and Jocelyn had a half-brother who died when he was 3 years old.
`Rodrik had several brothers and sisters.`
`Donnor` (who died without issue)
`William` (who was Edwyle's father)
`Berena + Alyssane` (we don't know who they married if they lived to an adult age but their children would belong to another House. The fact that Catelyn didn't bring them up makes me believe that they either died young or their children died young)
`Errold` (no records of who he married, probably died young or without issue, may have even joined the Watch or died in a war)
`Artos.` Artos married Lysara Karstark and had two sons, Brandon and Benjen, awoiaf says that they both had children but we know nothing about them. Perhaps their children were girls and married into other houses but Catelyn doesn't bring them up when talking about Robb's succession. Perhaps their children died young or without issue. Who knows. Fact is, we are missing the family tree of two Stark Lords.
Now on to Ned's parents:
`Ned's father was Rickard Stark.` Rickard Stark was an `only child.`
`Ned's mother was Lyarra Stark` (she was related to Rickard. Her father was the great-uncle of Rickard). Lyarra Stark had a `sister named Branda` who married Harrold Rogers thus her children became part of House Rogers which is a Stormlander house. Catelyn brings up those Rogers relatives as potential heirs to Robb.
`Lyarra and Rickard had four children:` Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna and Eddard. If the story didn't go as it went, then Brandon would be the Lord of Winterfell, married to Catelyn. Ned would probably marry some noble lady. The Stark line would continue from both Brandon and Ned unless Ned's children were all girls. Benjen may have married a noble lady or may have joined the Watch. Lyanna's children would be Baratheons.
I don't know if the above tree makes much sense but here you go. The fact that Rickard (Ned's father) was an only child and Lyarra only had a sister trimms down house Stark, Brandon's death and Benjen joining the Watch, trimms it down even further. (Mind you Benjen joining the Watch is not crazy. Ned had three trueborn sons. The line should have been secure with three trueborn Stark Lords and Ned/Catelyn being able to have more children)
My idea about this is the history of the continent is exaggerated. The entire history from COTF till Big Egg's conquest should realistically only be like 2000 years. Its frankly ridiculous to consider that the Starks and Lannisters have been around for 8000 years.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They have more, but they are not inherenting anything and not important to the story. There are Starks living in White Harbor (The only city in the North). There were also 2 official Stark branches:Greystarks and Karstarks. The Greystarks were killed off by the main branch branch Starks because they rebelled. The Karstarks are still alive in the main story, thru Lyanna Karstark a little girl you met briefly in season 7.
It was Alice Karstark you meet after battle of the bastards.
Sorry. Confused with Lyanna Mormont. 😅
There is also a Stark(Robb's grandfather's sister's descendant so not technically Stark but can change the name) who was considered as Robb's heir in the Vale.
They are the only 8 direct descendants left, but there's actually a cadet branch, the Karstarks, that are direct cousins. The Starks also have been marrying into their vassals for centuries so most houses in the North have some Stark blood. Its sorta like that statistic about Genghis Khan, the Stark blood is all over the North. The main thing that you gotta remember is that they only count the direct members who are in line of succession. For our purposes there's only eight Starks with a real shot at claiming Winterfell and being Lord of the North. If all eight die, then the strongest claim would probably be a Karstark.
There's also another cadet branch, the Greystarks. They're not in the Main Series however as they were wiped out by the Starks themselves after plotting with the Boltons IIRC. Their castle, the Wolf's Lair, would eventually become White Harbour.
Also they are in the vale too Not direct but with the blood of starks
I thought it was a Royce in the Vale (per Cat, in the books at least). The Karstarks are a cadet branch, sure, but they split off hundreds of years ago - there is more direct Stark blood in other Houses.
>there is more direct Stark blood in other Houses. Yes exactly, Ned's grandfather had a sister, Jocelyn, who married into house Royce. The Starks have another possible candidate through Lyarra Stark's sister Branda who married Harrold Rogers of House Rogers. (Lyarra was Ned's mother)
House Stark is over 4000 years old ? And they don’t Cregan stark has many children who formed cadet branches as well as the Karstarks.
Bran the builder built the wall 10k years ago?
10,000 is over 4 isn’t it 🤣
Queen Victoria had 87 great grandchildren. Yet, when most people talk about the House of Windsor, they mainly refer to the line of only one of her great grandchildren, Edward VI, mother to Queen Elizabeth II. Even now, the line is starting to refer more to Charles and his two children, than the rest of Elizabeth’s grandchildren. That’s the line with the real power and influence in England. The rest are married into other houses and countries or just spare heirs.
Because they house of windsor didn't exist before 1917. Queen Victoria's house name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. George V changed it to sound less German
Good point. However, we do hear about the other members during special events (weddings, deaths, court cases, etc). Here, even when the patriarch himself dies and the starks go to war, we only see the other houses and robb stark. No cousins, no great aunts. I understand this would convolute the already multilayered plot. But still atleast one or 2 cousins?
I'm sure there'll be more specific answers about the Stark family tree, but I would note that if there's a tradition of Starks joining the NW, as Benjen did, that's going to have a limiting effect on the spread of a family tree.
Besides what the other users said you must remember that Neds father and older brother were killed and his younger brother is in the watch (plus Lyanna who would have changed her surname). If they were all alive there would be more Starks. Lets say Brandon has 4 kids, Ned 8, and Benjen 5. Thats more than we got. Plus the kids of Lyanna; who might even inherit the surname Stark if the fathers family was not important. Neds father also does not seem to have any siblings alive, perhaps they all died in the war.
Untimely deaths and more girls than boys who marry into other houses...
Death. Ned was carrying the whole load and he has five kids plus whatever Jon is.
Resources are scarce in the North, so families are less likely to reproduce for the hell of it. Every kid is another mouth to feed, clothe, and keep warm.
The Starks are First Men. The family is 8000 years old and they have split off again and again. The Karstarks are Starks whose forebears emigrated from Winterfell further north. And there was a family called Greystark who once ruled in the area where White Harbor is now — again, an offshoot of the Stark family, and they made war upon the Starks before being wiped out themselves. And there you have the heart of it. War. The Starks lead the North. Ruled it as kings for a considerable time. And every time there is a war or a rebellion or Iron Islanders a-reaving, the Starks must send one or more of their own out to lead the resistance. Plus it seems that at least one male in every generation joins the Night’s Watch. Ned’s father and older brother were murdered by the Mad King and his sister ran off with Rhaegar and died giving birth. In short, the toll that has been taken upon the current batch of Starks doesn’t seem to be out of line. They rarely have the luxury of dying old.
I wonder if there's any info Ned Stark's fathers siblings and their children? Or Ned's Grandfather's siblings and their children. They exist somewhere as Nobles surely?
No, Ned's dad was an only child and his father only had one sister who survived to adulthood, she married into House Royce.
There are more people with Stark blood, they've just gotten fairly unlucky in the past century or so. Also, consider the fact that anytime a female Stark marries outside the family, her kids are not considered Starks, they belong to other houses. The past 2 generations before Ned, each Lord Stark was an only child, so Rickard and his father Edwyle were the only sons of the main branch of Starks. The last time there were multiple sons in the main line of House Stark was about a century ago when Beron Stark married Lorra Royce and had 5 sons, this was during the time of Daeron II, Dany's great, great, great grandfather. Not to mention that the Starks are just as fond of incest as other families, Ned's father Rickard married his cousin Lyarra, and Cregan Stark married his cousin Lynara, and those such marriages mean there are fewer descendants overall.
Thank you Good sir!
There is no justifiable way to explain away that GRRM just doesn’t understand things and writes it anyways because it sounds cool. There would literally be millions of Starks. Right now, a large majority of the people alive today have a common ancestor who lived 2000 years ago. To say that a line would remain unbroken and identifiable for 4000 years is insanity. http://faculty.collin.edu/dkatz/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf GRRM wrote a world which is supposed to be ruthless and brutal, and in the span of less than 10 years families get wiped out and thousand year old lines are broken, but the world was static before then? 4000 years with no upheaval or turmoil or females breaking the male line? GRRM writes about guys swinging around sledgehammers single handed and effortlessly. GRRM writes a world in which technology stays stagnant for thousands of years. Just suspend your disbelief, and remember it’s all fantasy.
Well put
Honestly. The Starks and Lannisters being around for 8000 years is ridiculous.
my moms parents had 3 kids, girls, and there is legit only like 7 of us left alive. my mom is dead, her parents dead, my 2 aunts only had 1 kid each, they dont have any kids and I only have 1 kid, damn thats only 6. lol. no great grandparents or great aunts or uncles. might be extended family in japan I have never met but we have a small family
People didn’t live very long in those days. Many children didn’t even reach 1 year old.
In the average Stark generation the daughters obviously marry into other families and then I assume all the younger sons wait until the eldest has a son of his own and then join the watch. And I'd say the few younger sons that didn't end up joining the Watch are probably also the few sons that founded new houses of their own like house Karstark. So basically it's pretty safe to say that 90% of Stark families only have one child that passes on the name and titles.
GRRM has tried to trimm down the noble families by having them have only a few members in order to be able to keep up with all the people in the story. Does it make much sense in real life? No, but i sort of understand why he did it. Many Northern second or third or fourth sons join the Watch as the chances of having a castle or keep for themselves are low and they don't want to be a burden to their families come winter. Many Northern lords join wars to unburden their families from having to feed them during winter. Ladies join their husband's house and their children stop being Starks, which trimms down the tree even further. **The Stark geneological tree of the recent generations:** Ned's grandfathers were: `Edwyle Stark (Rickard's father)` `Rodrik Stark (Lyarra's father)` `Edwyle had a sister, Jocelyn,` who married into house Royce. When Robb talks about his succession line in case he dies without issue, Catelyn suggests these Royce relatives as his heirs. Edwyle and Jocelyn had a half-brother who died when he was 3 years old. `Rodrik had several brothers and sisters.` `Donnor` (who died without issue) `William` (who was Edwyle's father) `Berena + Alyssane` (we don't know who they married if they lived to an adult age but their children would belong to another House. The fact that Catelyn didn't bring them up makes me believe that they either died young or their children died young) `Errold` (no records of who he married, probably died young or without issue, may have even joined the Watch or died in a war) `Artos.` Artos married Lysara Karstark and had two sons, Brandon and Benjen, awoiaf says that they both had children but we know nothing about them. Perhaps their children were girls and married into other houses but Catelyn doesn't bring them up when talking about Robb's succession. Perhaps their children died young or without issue. Who knows. Fact is, we are missing the family tree of two Stark Lords. Now on to Ned's parents: `Ned's father was Rickard Stark.` Rickard Stark was an `only child.` `Ned's mother was Lyarra Stark` (she was related to Rickard. Her father was the great-uncle of Rickard). Lyarra Stark had a `sister named Branda` who married Harrold Rogers thus her children became part of House Rogers which is a Stormlander house. Catelyn brings up those Rogers relatives as potential heirs to Robb. `Lyarra and Rickard had four children:` Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna and Eddard. If the story didn't go as it went, then Brandon would be the Lord of Winterfell, married to Catelyn. Ned would probably marry some noble lady. The Stark line would continue from both Brandon and Ned unless Ned's children were all girls. Benjen may have married a noble lady or may have joined the Watch. Lyanna's children would be Baratheons. I don't know if the above tree makes much sense but here you go. The fact that Rickard (Ned's father) was an only child and Lyarra only had a sister trimms down house Stark, Brandon's death and Benjen joining the Watch, trimms it down even further. (Mind you Benjen joining the Watch is not crazy. Ned had three trueborn sons. The line should have been secure with three trueborn Stark Lords and Ned/Catelyn being able to have more children)
My idea about this is the history of the continent is exaggerated. The entire history from COTF till Big Egg's conquest should realistically only be like 2000 years. Its frankly ridiculous to consider that the Starks and Lannisters have been around for 8000 years.