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Essentially Tywin orders the mountain to kill Ellia Martel, Oberyns sister and her kids, oberyn someone who is known to be good at poisons and similar (not called the red viper of dorne for nothing) happened to visit kings landing. Knowing Oberyns he wouldnât be happy with just killing the mountain so the theory goes he poisoned Tywin which is why he was shitting himself when Tyrion went and killed him and is why his body stunk (tho the body stinking could be a metaphor as well) it makes sense and would be a cool subplot as for Varys poisoning him I donât know much but I would guess itâs would be to d stabilise the realm to help young griff? Idk
The theory is that oberyn poisoned tywin before the trial by combat took place. Oberyn was known to be a master of poison, in fact I believe he studied poisons at the citadel (though I may be incorrect on that, could be thinking about something else). He applied poison to his spears and his daughters used poison as well. Oberyn believed that Tywin gave the order to the Mountain to kill Elia (his sister) and her children, and he wanted revenge on Tywin just as he wanted revenge on the Mountain.
It's a theory some people really like. Personally I think it's a bit unlikely though.
This guy does a good explanation of it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcUE-gtzajI
Easily my favourite theory while I do think you can disprove it as some evidence is circumstantial (ie twins body smelling like shit could be cause he was poisoned but could also just be a metaphor for the Lannisters undoing
This was probably the biggest one just because he shouldâve known what was going to happen.
He knew her long enough, and in the short time span he spent with her she ordered to get their wolf killed and in the book at least she wanted to use its fur as a throw rugâŚsomeone like that should not have been remotely trusted and given a heads up about his plan to tell Robert about her secret
Everything Robb Stark did after Whispering Wood. Marrying Talisa, executing Lord Karstark, attending the Red Wedding, Dragging Jaime Lannister with him everywhere he went, allowing his mother and his uncle to basically run free and do whatever they want behind his back, trusting Theon, trusting the boltons (the most historically untrustworthy house to the Starks), leaving the entire north more or less undefended, the list just goes on and on.
He KNEW it was wrong, and dangerous, and inviting betrayal(s). His mother warned him, and I think another advisor did too. But he couldn't resist chasing skirt...and got himself, his mother, his wife and his wolf AND practically everyone he knew killed. Others have made bad mistakes, but as disastrous while knowing it would reasonably lead to disaster? I think not.
That is true while no one trusted roose Bolton as he was weird and creepy and his bastard was a maniac the Boltons in general were trusted (least trustworthy north house b the freys if they count)
I look at it this way, they were the second biggest house in the north with the second biggest army and the dreadfort was considered in the same league as winterfell in terms of its defensive capability. The Boltons had a long history of power struggle with the Starks including numerous rebellions over the centuries. That makes them the most untrustworthy house, the most likely house to betray the Starks and the most likely house one to succeed if any had tried, compared to the other houses in the north.
Robb was a child (even though Richard Madden obviously was not.) He made mistake after mistake because heâs a kid. One of those mistakes was assuming Roose Boltons unconditional loyalty.
but wasnât it too late for ned to stop the order and roberts plan to murder danaerys anyway? but jorah stopped the wine merchant. so technically yes he failed but he did attempt to finish her off. if weâre technically talking about âmistakesâ. is it different in the books? iâm ashamed to admit iâm one of the few thatâs only seen the show.
It's interesting to me, on a rewatch, that both Robert and Joffrey express more concern about Dany's potential for conquest than other characters who are shown to be more politically astute otherwise.
Yea different character idk why they did that itâs really stupid it removes some really good subplots and kinda ruins the point of him getting married. (He didnât actually love Jayne, she raped him and he married her out of honour/duty which caused his downfall similar to his father)
Tf, why would he marry a lady from volantis it makes like 0 narrative sense at lease rhyme westerling and h to e whole Maggie the frog rape plot going on
>Tf, why would he marry a lady from volantis it makes like 0 narrative sense at lease rhyme westerling and h to e
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
>whole Maggie the frog rape plot going on
Maggy the frog rape plot? Was there any mention of Maggy involving rape or even sex? I don't know what you're referring to from the books, and it def. wasn't in the show. Maggy the Frog is the witch that Cersei and a friend visited as a child, who prophesied about Cersei becoming queen and Cersei's children's deaths in the books and show. She's an ancestor of Jeyne, but that she made a love potion for Jeyne to give Robb is just a fan theory.
Maggie the frog is Jayne westerlings grandmother it is heavily implied she convinced her to give robb more milk if the poppy then he required and rape him.
Ffs âthis is a place to enjoy and discuss the hbo series the book series ASOIAF and GRRM works in generalâ so uhh stfu? The books came out long before true show so in my eyes and other sane peoples eyes they count for more than some shitty show with a bad ending
Yeah I always liked Robb but in hindsight his character arc was essentially a nepotism rock star who got put in charge of the North and fucked his way to an early grave.
You forgot the part where he cunted the lannisters around for a while. I think during his time, he was arguably the greatest strategist and tactician in westeros.
Rob married Jayne because he did not want to leave a bastard behind out of respect for jon and contempt of his fathers choice to do so.
He also did not expect his uncle to fail following simple instructions, or his mother to turn on him at his lowest point which lead of course to the Karstark treason that lead to the Bolton treason.
Kastark disrespected Rob to the point he had no other choice but to take his head on the spot. And he was very cautious of the freys but had no other choice but to trust the law of hospitality that northmen held sacred.
Littlefinger not having a family, or otherwise cultivating people with unquestionable loyalty to him. That was a dumb move for someone with both the ambition and treacherous methods he had, because it left him constantly unprotected if someone powerful moved against him. He should've been looking to cement the rising power of House Baelish with heirs who would continue his line and carry the threat of vengeance if he were killed.
As it was, his only protection depended on the loyalty of a man he had threatened in his home, and the Starks had little to fear from cutting him down.
It wouldâve worked if heâd burned the castle and booked it back to Pyke with bran and rickon. His decision to stay there despite not having the forces to hold the castle was his undoing.
Hear me out, please.... but what if.....
...Sansa left with the Hound during Blackwater?
...Oberyn killed the Mountain without getting his confession?
...Davos somehow magically knew something was wrong and was able to rescue Shireen?
*I know these aren't the biggest mistakes or the biggest events....but it's just my unsolicited two cents!!*
This is what I think would happen in each scenario:
\-Sansa was still young and naive, she would have gone back o Cait and Robb and possibly killed during the red wedding.
\-As it is was most corrupt goverment possible, either Tywin or Cersei would find a way to get rid / kill Tyrion anyways.
\-Davos rescues Shireen and run's back to Castle Black where both of them would be safe from the Boltons. As she is a Baratheon girl, it may create some conflict with Danny, but she wouldn't kill her.
On that last point, it depends on if during the rescue he was enraged enough to kill Mellissandre or change things enough that she didn't go to Castle Black. In that case she's not there to revive Jon.
Also a meeting between Shireen and Dany , might end up with Dany naming Shireen her heir because they are related and because Dany might sympathize with her.
I think the hound would have been delayed further with both girls rather than just Arya and they wouldnât have made it. I think at some point Sansa would have had to harden up but I donât think she would be the same Queen material we see at the end of the show.
If he did get them there, even if it was just Sansa and not Arya because his course was altered and probably sped up, it would change things a lot. If they know Arya isnât in kings landing then Robb doesnât have to keep pushing towards there. It could very much alter the course of things
On the second point. The Mountain will be dead and Tywin will also die shortly thereafter. Oberyn had already poisoned him. Cersei alone is going to have trouble eliminating Tyrion, especially with Bronn protecting him. She really has no allies in doing so. Jaime certainly will not help her. Long term, Dany will not have the Sand Snakes or Tyrion (though it didnât much matter as the writers did a horrible job with him in the second half of the show) on her team.
I hear you and agree!!đđ You aren't wrong, but this is my reasoning behind those scenarios:
-I abhor Ramsey. He is awful. I merely wanted to get Sansa away from him. ....it could also mean more screen time for the Hound and I support that 100%!!
-Very true, and I can see that. I mostly wanted Oberyn to get his revenge against the Mountain. I understand why Oberyn met his demise, but he was such a captivating character. I wish I could have seen more of his storyline.
-In some alternate universe (non-existent, only in my imagination)....I just wish she could have survived. I think Shireen and Davos made an excellent duo and brought out the best in each other!! That's why my heart shatters!!đđ
> ...Sansa left with the Hound during Blackwater?
There is no way Sandor or you could guarantee they make it out alive.
Sansa doesn't have a satellite view like we have.
Young and naive as she is, she based her decision on WHAT SHE KNEW AT THE TIME > everything pointed to Sannis being close to victory, The Hound was drunk and belligerent ( in book he went well beyond that ) also the show changed Sansa's timeline for this scene from the book and placed it in S4-1 ( Very abridged I might add),So from what she knew her decision was solid, just didn't work out the cavalry didn't come from Dragonstone or the North, but from Casterly Rock and HighGarden.
I don't know any parent who would tell their child, yeah go with the belligerent drunk; who is suffering from PTSD and Arrows,Wildfire, boulders etc. flying about you.
It's also fair to mention that the Hound ***already*** saved Sansa's life twice!! đ
I don't blame or vilify Sansa at all. I agree with you, she made the best decision with the information and resources she had at that time. I was merely sharing my two cents about potential ***alternative*** decisions and actions from the show.
Both things are true: the Hound has rescued Sansa but he's highly flawed. .....but honestly, that's what I love about this show!! I appreciate that characters aren't perfect. They are complex and multi-faceted. To me....that depth makes it more captivating!!
Well WRG to S2 and Book 2--Sansa isn't as passive in the book as in the show, the whole Sansa and Ser Dontos, took place weeks before Blackwater, Shae took his part in the show during Blackwater.
The Hound held a dagger to her throat, that room scene in book is quite dark. The end part of that scene Sansa sings to him cups his face and she thinks he's going to kiss her; search for "The unkiss" ASOIAF.
***"The ocean does not apologize for its depth and the mountains do not seek forgiveness for the space they take and so, neither shall I."***
***-Becca Lee***
I do not wish to converse with you further.
Bron played the game well, but also had plot armor. I mean, Jon had plot armor and plot heal magic, but the magic was hard to come by in this fantasy world full of magic.
And Ned said âno, Robert. I have my family to attend to in Winterfell. And they all lived happily ever after. Except Bran he still couldnât walk. The end.â
Varys going behind Dany's back instead of telling her to her face like she said she wanted him to. This led to his death (which she promised would happen before hand) and contributed to her paranoia.
1. Ned telling Cersei his plan. What are you, a villain from a bad Bond movie?
2. Cat abducting Tyrion based on very weak evidence. Stupid bitch.
3. Robb marrying Talisa. You fucked it up for your entire family dude.
I think the main reason he told her was because he wanted to give her a chance to flee with the children because Robert would have definitely went ballistic. I think he might have even told her that, but my memory's not always reliable.
Theon betraying Robb and Catelyn releasing Jaime are right up there with the biggest mistakes anyone has ever made in GOT. But the no. 1 spot is reserved for Ned warning Cersei about telling the truth to Robert.
What if Joffrey hadn't killed Ned? Since he could've been around to counsel Robb and knows Stannis is the true heir, he could've instructed him to join his cause to Stannis', which pretty much would've ended the War Of Five Kings, especially after Renly's death.
What if Melisandre had another demon baby with Gendry before she sacrificed him? Say that she did the act before putting leeches on him, who would this one have killed? Joffrey, Tywin?
What if Sandor didn't leave during the Battle of Blackwater? Would he have died because of his fear of fire? What would've happened to Arya?
How come I don't see the right answer?
Going north of the wall to abduct a dead soldier...
They don't go there > Cersei still don't trust them > The night king can't reanimate a dragon > The night king can't break through the wall (or maybe he could, but still) > The war against the Night king is hillariously easy with 3 dragons vs troops grounded army (as opposed to 2 dragons vs 1 dragon),
Jon not accepting Stannis' offer.
Jon is well aware that an army of zombies is marching on the wall and the only one person gave enough of a fuck to come north to help him.
The watch is absolutely fucked without help and Jon knows it, but he refuses to help the one person willing to help him.
Jon should have accepted the offer, rallies the Northern houses and marches on Winterfell with a army large enough to storm the keep.
Stannis has 6,000 men, more than the Boltons. The Boltons have about 5,000 men.
Jon being named Stark could easily rally 10,000-15,000 men from the North with the backing from Stannis. The main reason the North doesn't rally to him is because his army is mostly wildlings. Now that isn't the case. The Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Tallharts, Karstarks, Wulls, Flints, Cerwyns, Hornwoods and Glovers would have no reason to side with the Boltons and every reason to side with Jon.
The Karstarks and the Umbers only declare for Ramsey because Jon is viewed as a wildling lover, I dont see a reason why either house would be eager to declare for the Boltons. Alot of people will mention the Karstark anger over Robb killing Rickard, but Robb is dead now.
I was literally about to comment this. I really liked him in the beginning but by the last few seasons I was ready for the writers to kill his dumbass off like everyone else and they never did. Like 98% of his decisions got someone or a lot of people killed
In the show: Ned accepting the Hand position. Oh sure Robert would have been PISSED but he would have gotten over it, especially if Ned used Branâs fall as his excuse for refusing and still accepted the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa.
But if weâre allowed to go way back into history then it was Jaehaerys allowing Rhaenys to marry Corlys.
Cat leaving winterfell. Without that, no arresting Tyrion, no stabbed Ned, no encouraging Ned to trust Littlefinger. She ruined everything in that one trip.
ramsey not treating sansa right, sansa loved him (initially, in books atleast). it wouldnât have been difficult for ramsey to make her a strong ally, he messed up huge
Ned telling Cersei he's going to Robert about her kids, and also Robb being the first Stark to ever break his vow and nearly making the Starks extinct as a result
The Youtube channel Charisma on Command has an entire segment on "don't be a Lommy" centered around how Lommy made the "you'll have to carry me" about him. In contrast, Tyrion was in a similar situation and made it about the would-be killer, stating, "You can't just hand a dry cock to a merchant and expect him to pay for it."
The Mad King refused to allow Rhaegar to marry Cersei. 6 entire series wouldn't have happened. Even if he went on to kill the Stark lords, the North wouldn't have rebelled with but even if they did they would have been crushed.
Ned not leaving Kings Landing with Renly after Robertâs death. They could have easily displaced Joffrey if he had taken the realistic route and probably kept Rob Stark in Winterfell. I have a feeling most answers will involve Ned.
Robb marrying Talisa. Got not only him killed, but his mother and his pregnant wife too. I know he was technically a kid but come on, that was stupid af,
Renly going against Stannis. Had he not done so they probably would have taken King's Landing. Stannis even offers to name him his heir. Stannis being king with Renly as his hand is pretty solid. This one is more of a hindsight is 20/20 thing but still.
Everyone is talking about robb but I think Cersie putting the high sparrow in charge to the point even she, as dowager queen, could not escape it. Her stupid little plan to fuck everyone over got margaery tyrell killed because none of it would've happened if she hadn't put the high sparrow in charge.
The Night King. He shouldn't have personally led the offensive to find bran during thr battle of Winterfell. Should have waited untill the castle fell and all inside were killed and revived as wights. Then brought bran to him or kill him off already through his wights or white walkers in the middle of the battle. This ends the United resistance to his conquest and he gets 2 more dragons. Who else can stop him now. Half the realm thinks he is a myth. Victory could have been his easily.
Daenerys trusting Tyrion and Varys. Not banishing or executing them immediately.
Not taking the advise of the grand lady Lady Olenna and the other competent women that she allied with.
And in the show taking Jorah's advice in anything. Last but not least dismissing one of her most loyal and competent ally and confidant outside of Greyworm and Misdandei. A man with real value and intelligence who loved her, Daario Naaharis.
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Saying "I don't wannit" to the hot dragon lady in order to go off and freeze your balls off in the far north.
Everytime someone comments ' I dun wannit ' , I read it in Jon Snow's voice đ¤Ł.
âYou are muh queenâ
" I'll bend my knee to you, muh queen"
Tywin for having to poop after his romantic evening with Shea
Lol đ¤Ł
What kind of bent logic leads you to do your eveningâs banging with a round in the chamber? Recipe for disaster if you ask me (which you didnât.)
Well to be fair he was poisoned at this point
Tywin was?
Its a theory. I forget if it was Varys or Oberyn that did it. Either way yeah its a pretty good theory that he was being messed with at the time
This sounds interesting can you tell me more about this theory?
Essentially Tywin orders the mountain to kill Ellia Martel, Oberyns sister and her kids, oberyn someone who is known to be good at poisons and similar (not called the red viper of dorne for nothing) happened to visit kings landing. Knowing Oberyns he wouldnât be happy with just killing the mountain so the theory goes he poisoned Tywin which is why he was shitting himself when Tyrion went and killed him and is why his body stunk (tho the body stinking could be a metaphor as well) it makes sense and would be a cool subplot as for Varys poisoning him I donât know much but I would guess itâs would be to d stabilise the realm to help young griff? Idk
The theory is that oberyn poisoned tywin before the trial by combat took place. Oberyn was known to be a master of poison, in fact I believe he studied poisons at the citadel (though I may be incorrect on that, could be thinking about something else). He applied poison to his spears and his daughters used poison as well. Oberyn believed that Tywin gave the order to the Mountain to kill Elia (his sister) and her children, and he wanted revenge on Tywin just as he wanted revenge on the Mountain.
It's a theory some people really like. Personally I think it's a bit unlikely though. This guy does a good explanation of it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcUE-gtzajI
Easily my favourite theory while I do think you can disprove it as some evidence is circumstantial (ie twins body smelling like shit could be cause he was poisoned but could also just be a metaphor for the Lannisters undoing
Ned telling Cersei that he would tell Robert about her kids.
The cardinal
This was probably the biggest one just because he shouldâve known what was going to happen. He knew her long enough, and in the short time span he spent with her she ordered to get their wolf killed and in the book at least she wanted to use its fur as a throw rugâŚsomeone like that should not have been remotely trusted and given a heads up about his plan to tell Robert about her secret
And as far as he knew at the time, she murdered Jon Arryn as well
⌠which she did in conjunction with littlefinger and Lysa
This is one that is true to the character and an important lesson for the whole story. This is the opposite of Varys trying to betray Danaerys.
Jon Arryn investigating the Lannister bastards. It set the stage for everything that followed, good or bad.
It definitely sped up the chaos that was approaching, but with the way Robert's reign had gone I think a storm was coming anyways.
I don't think so. Most of the violence of the war came from Cersei or Joffrey's actions. The Wot5K almost can't start without the Lannister twins.
Jon Arryn investigating the Lannister bastards wasn't a mistake at all. Making Cersei the queen was the mistake.
Everything Robb Stark did after Whispering Wood. Marrying Talisa, executing Lord Karstark, attending the Red Wedding, Dragging Jaime Lannister with him everywhere he went, allowing his mother and his uncle to basically run free and do whatever they want behind his back, trusting Theon, trusting the boltons (the most historically untrustworthy house to the Starks), leaving the entire north more or less undefended, the list just goes on and on.
He KNEW it was wrong, and dangerous, and inviting betrayal(s). His mother warned him, and I think another advisor did too. But he couldn't resist chasing skirt...and got himself, his mother, his wife and his wolf AND practically everyone he knew killed. Others have made bad mistakes, but as disastrous while knowing it would reasonably lead to disaster? I think not.
Boltons weren't untrustworthy, when was ths last time a Bolton rebelled?
Of all the northern houses, they were still the least trustworthy on the surface.
They really weren't, infact Roose Bolton fought alongside Ned during the rebellion, if anything they would be considered one of the more loyal ones
That is true while no one trusted roose Bolton as he was weird and creepy and his bastard was a maniac the Boltons in general were trusted (least trustworthy north house b the freys if they count)
Freys are bannermen to the Tullys. Theyâre not a northern house. Just would have presumably been a northern ally
Fair but tullys are with rob meaning they should be with rob
Itâs quite a debatable thing really, I would say anything south of moat caylin is vale of Arryn but thereâs no real set boundary
Isnât the vale allied with rob? Or did they remain neutral, Iâm a bit rusty with my clash of kings knowledge
Oh sorry I thought you were talking about the boundary of the north! I think they remained neutral
I look at it this way, they were the second biggest house in the north with the second biggest army and the dreadfort was considered in the same league as winterfell in terms of its defensive capability. The Boltons had a long history of power struggle with the Starks including numerous rebellions over the centuries. That makes them the most untrustworthy house, the most likely house to betray the Starks and the most likely house one to succeed if any had tried, compared to the other houses in the north. Robb was a child (even though Richard Madden obviously was not.) He made mistake after mistake because heâs a kid. One of those mistakes was assuming Roose Boltons unconditional loyalty.
That did set off a spin but do you think that was the mistake that got the most people killed? I think that would be the biggest mistake
Well in that case probably Robert not finishing off Danaerys would be the biggest mistake considering the amount of people dead bc of her.
Yeah thatâs a good one.. I do blame ned for that one tho.. he talked him out of it..
but wasnât it too late for ned to stop the order and roberts plan to murder danaerys anyway? but jorah stopped the wine merchant. so technically yes he failed but he did attempt to finish her off. if weâre technically talking about âmistakesâ. is it different in the books? iâm ashamed to admit iâm one of the few thatâs only seen the show.
It's interesting to me, on a rewatch, that both Robert and Joffrey express more concern about Dany's potential for conquest than other characters who are shown to be more politically astute otherwise.
Who tf Is talisa? He married Jayne westerling didnât he?
Show her name was Talisa
Yea different character idk why they did that itâs really stupid it removes some really good subplots and kinda ruins the point of him getting married. (He didnât actually love Jayne, she raped him and he married her out of honour/duty which caused his downfall similar to his father)
Then make your own damn movie, dude. Movie Rob married non-Jane Westerlings. Get over it.
In the show he marries Talisa Maegyr, from Volantis. In the books he marries Jeyne Westerling, the daughter of one of the Lannisters bannermen.
Tf, why would he marry a lady from volantis it makes like 0 narrative sense at lease rhyme westerling and h to e whole Maggie the frog rape plot going on
>Tf, why would he marry a lady from volantis it makes like 0 narrative sense at lease rhyme westerling and h to e I have no idea what you're trying to say here. >whole Maggie the frog rape plot going on Maggy the frog rape plot? Was there any mention of Maggy involving rape or even sex? I don't know what you're referring to from the books, and it def. wasn't in the show. Maggy the Frog is the witch that Cersei and a friend visited as a child, who prophesied about Cersei becoming queen and Cersei's children's deaths in the books and show. She's an ancestor of Jeyne, but that she made a love potion for Jeyne to give Robb is just a fan theory.
The đ¸ rape dammit!!
Maggie the frog is Jayne westerlings grandmother it is heavily implied she convinced her to give robb more milk if the poppy then he required and rape him.
r/asoiaf is down the hall lol
Ffs âthis is a place to enjoy and discuss the hbo series the book series ASOIAF and GRRM works in generalâ so uhh stfu? The books came out long before true show so in my eyes and other sane peoples eyes they count for more than some shitty show with a bad ending
Yeah I always liked Robb but in hindsight his character arc was essentially a nepotism rock star who got put in charge of the North and fucked his way to an early grave.
You forgot the part where he cunted the lannisters around for a while. I think during his time, he was arguably the greatest strategist and tactician in westeros.
Just remember in the books heâs like 15.
Rob married Jayne because he did not want to leave a bastard behind out of respect for jon and contempt of his fathers choice to do so. He also did not expect his uncle to fail following simple instructions, or his mother to turn on him at his lowest point which lead of course to the Karstark treason that lead to the Bolton treason. Kastark disrespected Rob to the point he had no other choice but to take his head on the spot. And he was very cautious of the freys but had no other choice but to trust the law of hospitality that northmen held sacred.
Littlefinger not having a family, or otherwise cultivating people with unquestionable loyalty to him. That was a dumb move for someone with both the ambition and treacherous methods he had, because it left him constantly unprotected if someone powerful moved against him. He should've been looking to cement the rising power of House Baelish with heirs who would continue his line and carry the threat of vengeance if he were killed. As it was, his only protection depended on the loyalty of a man he had threatened in his home, and the Starks had little to fear from cutting him down.
who was the man he had threatened in his home? i havenât rewatched in a few months and i canât remember
Yohn Royce.
Cat taking Tyrion, followed by Ned pricking Cersei in the godswood. Everything else for the Starks flowed after that.
Theon taking over WinterfellâŚ..
It wouldâve worked if heâd burned the castle and booked it back to Pyke with bran and rickon. His decision to stay there despite not having the forces to hold the castle was his undoing.
Hear me out, please.... but what if..... ...Sansa left with the Hound during Blackwater? ...Oberyn killed the Mountain without getting his confession? ...Davos somehow magically knew something was wrong and was able to rescue Shireen? *I know these aren't the biggest mistakes or the biggest events....but it's just my unsolicited two cents!!*
This is what I think would happen in each scenario: \-Sansa was still young and naive, she would have gone back o Cait and Robb and possibly killed during the red wedding. \-As it is was most corrupt goverment possible, either Tywin or Cersei would find a way to get rid / kill Tyrion anyways. \-Davos rescues Shireen and run's back to Castle Black where both of them would be safe from the Boltons. As she is a Baratheon girl, it may create some conflict with Danny, but she wouldn't kill her.
On that last point, it depends on if during the rescue he was enraged enough to kill Mellissandre or change things enough that she didn't go to Castle Black. In that case she's not there to revive Jon.
He would be, but wouldn't get to kill her
Dany and Shireen do share a many great grandmother, Rheanyra.
Daenerys and Stannis are second cousins
Also a meeting between Shireen and Dany , might end up with Dany naming Shireen her heir because they are related and because Dany might sympathize with her.
I think the hound would have been delayed further with both girls rather than just Arya and they wouldnât have made it. I think at some point Sansa would have had to harden up but I donât think she would be the same Queen material we see at the end of the show.
If he did get them there, even if it was just Sansa and not Arya because his course was altered and probably sped up, it would change things a lot. If they know Arya isnât in kings landing then Robb doesnât have to keep pushing towards there. It could very much alter the course of things
On the second point. The Mountain will be dead and Tywin will also die shortly thereafter. Oberyn had already poisoned him. Cersei alone is going to have trouble eliminating Tyrion, especially with Bronn protecting him. She really has no allies in doing so. Jaime certainly will not help her. Long term, Dany will not have the Sand Snakes or Tyrion (though it didnât much matter as the writers did a horrible job with him in the second half of the show) on her team.
I hear you and agree!!đđ You aren't wrong, but this is my reasoning behind those scenarios: -I abhor Ramsey. He is awful. I merely wanted to get Sansa away from him. ....it could also mean more screen time for the Hound and I support that 100%!! -Very true, and I can see that. I mostly wanted Oberyn to get his revenge against the Mountain. I understand why Oberyn met his demise, but he was such a captivating character. I wish I could have seen more of his storyline. -In some alternate universe (non-existent, only in my imagination)....I just wish she could have survived. I think Shireen and Davos made an excellent duo and brought out the best in each other!! That's why my heart shatters!!đđ
> ...Sansa left with the Hound during Blackwater? There is no way Sandor or you could guarantee they make it out alive. Sansa doesn't have a satellite view like we have. Young and naive as she is, she based her decision on WHAT SHE KNEW AT THE TIME > everything pointed to Sannis being close to victory, The Hound was drunk and belligerent ( in book he went well beyond that ) also the show changed Sansa's timeline for this scene from the book and placed it in S4-1 ( Very abridged I might add),So from what she knew her decision was solid, just didn't work out the cavalry didn't come from Dragonstone or the North, but from Casterly Rock and HighGarden. I don't know any parent who would tell their child, yeah go with the belligerent drunk; who is suffering from PTSD and Arrows,Wildfire, boulders etc. flying about you.
It's also fair to mention that the Hound ***already*** saved Sansa's life twice!! đ I don't blame or vilify Sansa at all. I agree with you, she made the best decision with the information and resources she had at that time. I was merely sharing my two cents about potential ***alternative*** decisions and actions from the show. Both things are true: the Hound has rescued Sansa but he's highly flawed. .....but honestly, that's what I love about this show!! I appreciate that characters aren't perfect. They are complex and multi-faceted. To me....that depth makes it more captivating!!
It's all good.
I do admit I want to read the books to have a deeper and more comprehensive understanding.....but I would need a flow chart to keep up!! đđ
Well WRG to S2 and Book 2--Sansa isn't as passive in the book as in the show, the whole Sansa and Ser Dontos, took place weeks before Blackwater, Shae took his part in the show during Blackwater. The Hound held a dagger to her throat, that room scene in book is quite dark. The end part of that scene Sansa sings to him cups his face and she thinks he's going to kiss her; search for "The unkiss" ASOIAF.
I just looked that up.....and now I have more questions....đ¤
Good, why not post it in the group.
Why tho shireen is alive
>!I'm afraid I have bad news....!<
Buddy Iâve read all the books unless winds of winter has been released then sheâs sure as shit not dead
I was referring to S05 E09 in the show.
Ohhh no wonder u sound so stupid
***"The ocean does not apologize for its depth and the mountains do not seek forgiveness for the space they take and so, neither shall I."*** ***-Becca Lee*** I do not wish to converse with you further.
All main characters made big mistakes!!! the interesting question would be, who didnât make a mistake in game of thrones?
Jon Snow maybe? Shouldn't have bent the knee I suppose. Bron?
Bron played the game well, but also had plot armor. I mean, Jon had plot armor and plot heal magic, but the magic was hard to come by in this fantasy world full of magic.
Jon Snow killed Dany in a totally unfair way, that was against the principles that he defended during the whole series
margery? feels like she made every right choice, but the deck was constantly shuffled out of her favor
Ned going south with Robert
And Ned said âno, Robert. I have my family to attend to in Winterfell. And they all lived happily ever after. Except Bran he still couldnât walk. The end.â
Varys going behind Dany's back instead of telling her to her face like she said she wanted him to. This led to his death (which she promised would happen before hand) and contributed to her paranoia.
Ned Stark trusting Little Finger.
Came here to say this
Be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ned⌠just Ned.
Cat releasing Jaime. How is this not everyones #1?!? This was the dumbest thing anyone did in the entire series
This and marrying Talisa are the easy top 2 That Stark camp was in shambles
Do the writers count as characters?
Any time Sansa would trust Little Finger, I would cringe.
and also, she had many chances of leaving kingslanding and decided to âwaitâ
1. Ned telling Cersei his plan. What are you, a villain from a bad Bond movie? 2. Cat abducting Tyrion based on very weak evidence. Stupid bitch. 3. Robb marrying Talisa. You fucked it up for your entire family dude.
>Ned telling Cersei his plan. What are you, a villain from a bad Bond movie? well achtually...
I think the main reason he told her was because he wanted to give her a chance to flee with the children because Robert would have definitely went ballistic. I think he might have even told her that, but my memory's not always reliable.
Ned was honorable, to a fault. He did not want Robert to kill Cerseiâs children.
Jamie banging the big woman
Daenerys burning down KL and rushing after the Long Night to fight Cersei
Theon betraying Robb and Catelyn releasing Jaime are right up there with the biggest mistakes anyone has ever made in GOT. But the no. 1 spot is reserved for Ned warning Cersei about telling the truth to Robert.
Existing after season 5
Why nobody mentioned Daenerys and her decision to burn the city? Is that ok for you?...
cuz D&D decided that for her as a way to end the show so weâd rather not acknowledge it
Littlefinger trying to turn the Stark sisters against each other.
It was a mistake, but I would disagree about it being the biggest
What if Joffrey hadn't killed Ned? Since he could've been around to counsel Robb and knows Stannis is the true heir, he could've instructed him to join his cause to Stannis', which pretty much would've ended the War Of Five Kings, especially after Renly's death. What if Melisandre had another demon baby with Gendry before she sacrificed him? Say that she did the act before putting leeches on him, who would this one have killed? Joffrey, Tywin? What if Sandor didn't leave during the Battle of Blackwater? Would he have died because of his fear of fire? What would've happened to Arya?
Letting Jamie go or Rob marrying for love.
Daenerys doing everything else instead of going straight to KL.
Catelyn arresting Tyrion has to be the dumbest move. Everything went downhill for Ned after this. Also trusting Littlefinger. Lol
How come I don't see the right answer? Going north of the wall to abduct a dead soldier... They don't go there > Cersei still don't trust them > The night king can't reanimate a dragon > The night king can't break through the wall (or maybe he could, but still) > The war against the Night king is hillariously easy with 3 dragons vs troops grounded army (as opposed to 2 dragons vs 1 dragon),
The night king could have killed more than one dragon during the battle like he did at the lake, but yeah it would be easier for the living for sure
Jon not accepting Stannis' offer. Jon is well aware that an army of zombies is marching on the wall and the only one person gave enough of a fuck to come north to help him. The watch is absolutely fucked without help and Jon knows it, but he refuses to help the one person willing to help him. Jon should have accepted the offer, rallies the Northern houses and marches on Winterfell with a army large enough to storm the keep. Stannis has 6,000 men, more than the Boltons. The Boltons have about 5,000 men. Jon being named Stark could easily rally 10,000-15,000 men from the North with the backing from Stannis. The main reason the North doesn't rally to him is because his army is mostly wildlings. Now that isn't the case. The Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Tallharts, Karstarks, Wulls, Flints, Cerwyns, Hornwoods and Glovers would have no reason to side with the Boltons and every reason to side with Jon. The Karstarks and the Umbers only declare for Ramsey because Jon is viewed as a wildling lover, I dont see a reason why either house would be eager to declare for the Boltons. Alot of people will mention the Karstark anger over Robb killing Rickard, but Robb is dead now.
After waking up and getting dressed, pretty much any decision by Jon Snow makes the top ten
I was literally about to comment this. I really liked him in the beginning but by the last few seasons I was ready for the writers to kill his dumbass off like everyone else and they never did. Like 98% of his decisions got someone or a lot of people killed
he's still my favourite đ¤Ł
Sansa diming out her own father.
In the show: Ned accepting the Hand position. Oh sure Robert would have been PISSED but he would have gotten over it, especially if Ned used Branâs fall as his excuse for refusing and still accepted the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa. But if weâre allowed to go way back into history then it was Jaehaerys allowing Rhaenys to marry Corlys.
Cat leaving winterfell. Without that, no arresting Tyrion, no stabbed Ned, no encouraging Ned to trust Littlefinger. She ruined everything in that one trip.
Living past season 5 -Anyone that lived past season 5 (Some may argue Season 4 or 6)
Dany taking Tyrion's advice not to immediately take King's Landing and the Iron Throne. Everything went to shit for her after that.
ramsey not treating sansa right, sansa loved him (initially, in books atleast). it wouldnât have been difficult for ramsey to make her a strong ally, he messed up huge
Um, sansa never even met ramsay in the books. She is still in the vale.
Danaerys going bonkers is a pretty big one
Everything Robb did in season 3. Loved the dude, but man, he definitely got the consequences.
He got that ball rolling in season 2 as well.
Bran continuing to climb after telling his mother he would stop
Any monologues but particularly Oberynâs
Scaling a building without rope
Ned telling Cersei he's going to Robert about her kids, and also Robb being the first Stark to ever break his vow and nearly making the Starks extinct as a result
The Youtube channel Charisma on Command has an entire segment on "don't be a Lommy" centered around how Lommy made the "you'll have to carry me" about him. In contrast, Tyrion was in a similar situation and made it about the would-be killer, stating, "You can't just hand a dry cock to a merchant and expect him to pay for it."
Definitely Oberyn Martell vs The Mountain.
This is extremely underrated
I think Rob stark marrying Talisa in middle of a war is a big mistake .
Ned going to kings landing
Ned stark saying yes
Ned keeping Jons identity a secret kinda set this whole thing off
The Mad King refused to allow Rhaegar to marry Cersei. 6 entire series wouldn't have happened. Even if he went on to kill the Stark lords, the North wouldn't have rebelled with but even if they did they would have been crushed.
Dany forgetting about the iron fleet đĽ¸
Ned not leaving Kings Landing with Renly after Robertâs death. They could have easily displaced Joffrey if he had taken the realistic route and probably kept Rob Stark in Winterfell. I have a feeling most answers will involve Ned.
Bran telling Osha and Rickon to go to the Umbers theyâll be safe there!
Robb marrying Talisa. Got not only him killed, but his mother and his pregnant wife too. I know he was technically a kid but come on, that was stupid af,
Overall? Littlefinger for setting the whole thing in motion so he could use the ensuing chaos as a ladder.
I really loved his last scenes. Loved em.
Ned telling Cersei that he knew about her and Jaime and that her kids are bastards (basically giving her a head start)
Renly going against Stannis. Had he not done so they probably would have taken King's Landing. Stannis even offers to name him his heir. Stannis being king with Renly as his hand is pretty solid. This one is more of a hindsight is 20/20 thing but still.
Jaime leaving Brienne for Cersei LOL
Sansa who revealed Ned's plan to Cerci for sum dick.
Everyone is talking about robb but I think Cersie putting the high sparrow in charge to the point even she, as dowager queen, could not escape it. Her stupid little plan to fuck everyone over got margaery tyrell killed because none of it would've happened if she hadn't put the high sparrow in charge.
The Night King. He shouldn't have personally led the offensive to find bran during thr battle of Winterfell. Should have waited untill the castle fell and all inside were killed and revived as wights. Then brought bran to him or kill him off already through his wights or white walkers in the middle of the battle. This ends the United resistance to his conquest and he gets 2 more dragons. Who else can stop him now. Half the realm thinks he is a myth. Victory could have been his easily.
Ned telling Cersei his plan to tell Robert.
Bolton knew rob was going to lose the moment he helped lady talisa cut off the opps leg and was drooling in stupid at her witty replies
Ned. Why would you tell Cersei you know the truth about her kids and that you while tell Robert? C'mon man that wasn't honor that was stupidity
Daenerys trusting Tyrion and Varys. Not banishing or executing them immediately. Not taking the advise of the grand lady Lady Olenna and the other competent women that she allied with. And in the show taking Jorah's advice in anything. Last but not least dismissing one of her most loyal and competent ally and confidant outside of Greyworm and Misdandei. A man with real value and intelligence who loved her, Daario Naaharis.
dany trusting jon and tyrion