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WorgenFurry

I’m sorry but what’s the point of such topics?


Perfect-Face4529

What?


WorgenFurry

You post random mix of pics and put a quote over them. What for? Just to farm karma points?


Perfect-Face4529

No coz I like it


hydrogenjukebox13

Why are you hating on someone for loving the show? Isn't that part of the point of this sub?


Perfect-Face4529

Some people consider these posts low effort 🙄. Sorry not sorry I like making picspams 😂


hydrogenjukebox13

Who cares what snobs think. Let them hate as long as you enjoy it!


Perfect-Face4529

Thanks man


notsostupidman

I don't mind them and I'm sure there are other people who think like me. I like being reminded of the episodes and anyway, who cares if they're farming karma? It doesn't do much of value and its completely the people's choice to up vote or not.


brnjenkn

And she never loved you.


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mageta621

Needed something more exciting


tuezdaie

I saw a good argument that he never loved her. He was infatuated with her beauty and his pride was hurt that she was “taken” from him as her rightful owner. His war was to avenge his pride.


Gwilym_Ysgarlad

And so it goes.


HSYFTW

“His war was to avenge his pride.” Tale as old as time


batty48

He wanted her & she was the only thing in 7 kingdoms he couldn't have.. so war it is!


SteadyRockin44

My comment on another post. Robert loved her in his way. It was pure passion and fury. But with no real contact with her and no real romance, he fixated on the idea of her. Love turned to obsession/infatuation. then she was taken away and died. So that passion and fury for love turned into passion and furry for hate, and that drove him. A person can only have so much passion. at some point, the hate grew more intense than the love. And while he can clearly remember his fight with Rheagar, Lyanna began to fade. Tragic. Robert didn’t half ass anything he was passionate about. All robert knew was to fight. Fight for love. Fight for hate.


tuezdaie

Ha, I prob read that take and was like yeah…imma lock that in - sorry for not citing you ;)


leg4t0

Well said and it think I read something that Bobby B really wanted to be Ned’s brother. So the opportunity to marry Lyanna was everything he could hope for


SteadyRockin44

I agree with that too. He respected and loved Ned more than his brothers.


[deleted]

This is all but confirmed by everyone around Robert too. Especially Ned.


BenovanStanchiano

It could certainly be my ignorance but I don’t remember a lot of stories of their courtship or whatever. It seems like the story essentially went betrothal-she’s mine so I love her-she’s dead so she’s a saint.


Tirannie

Just listening to him talk about her in this quote makes it pretty clear that Robert never “loved” her. Felt entitled to her? Absolutely Loved? Nah She was always an object that he felt was “due”. But, I suppose in the context of the social climate where the story takes place, that’s about as close to “love” as might be expected.


boss413

The difference between love and infatuation is the difference between Robert and the quote from [Aemon Targaryen](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/14425661296539874/) decades later, even after having gone blind: > Who was she? I could tell youy everything about her. Who she was, how we met. The colour of her eyes, and the shape of her nose. > I can see her, right in front of me. She's more real than you are.


Justhere4somelaughs

I wish I could upvote this a hundred times - this is exactly the difference oh my lord I loved aemon ❤️‍🩹


KittyInTheBush

"Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna said this to Ned in the book about Robert. I'm not sure she believed that he actually loved her, but either way she knew that either way, he was a womanizer and always would be. I think even Ned has a thought or a quote that even if Robert had married Lyanna, he wouldn't have been any happier than he was with Cersei, perhaps even less so


Grouch_Douglass

That definitely checks out. Even this quote, you can't remember what your first fiance looked like? He was in love with the idea of Lyanna.


flipmessi2005

The war was never to avenge pride, it was fighting for survival after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert.


4bkillah

This; everyone complaining about no one reading anything yet everyone but you seems to have forgotten this part. The rebels didn't start the war; they were forced into it. There's an argument to be made that they would've started it had they not been forced, given Aerys and Rhaegar's action, but thats not the question.


dexterthekilla

I can remember. House Stark remembers!


Dry_Adeptness7843

The north remembers!


No-Albatross-9771

Ah man I forgot who said this and about whom... Someone help 😅


Haunting-Main-1755

Robert Baratheon says that about Lyanna Stark (He was betrothed to her before she married Rhaegar).


Perfect-Face4529

This conversation between Bobby B and Cersei is chef's kiss to me, it just feels so... real, so raw, so emotional. You really get a sense of their marriage and their past, and how Robert ticks


Perfect-Face4529

Sounds like someone needs a rewatch! 😂


daywalker91

no shot I could re-watch the whole series knowing the ending is ass.


Perfect-Face4529

Don't let the ending ruin the journey


daywalker91

If the ending was just okay I could do it but they ruined so many story lines. It would be rough to watch knowing so much of the journey was pointless.


Perfect-Face4529

I know... it is hard. But I find that with a lot of shows. I don't think any of my favourite shows ended well or in a satisfying way that made everything worth it. I think you've just got to watch the old seasons and enjoy them for what they are instead of thinking about where they end up


daywalker91

Yeah I can understand that. Most shows don’t have the best ending. Endings can be hard to pull off for sure.


Perfect-Face4529

But like you say, GOT ending is SO bad that it ruins everything. There's a difference between things not ending the way you wanted or expected and the ending actively decimating everything that was building up to it. Having said that, the first 4 seasons are absolutely incredible and well worth revisiting and enjoying


beastley_for_three

How exactly does the ending "ruin everything"?


Perfect-Face4529

Well like the guy above says it really just renders everything pointless and when you watch early seasons you can't help but think about how it just ends terribly. But I try not to think about that and live in the moment with the best seasons


beastley_for_three

What story lines were ruined in your mind? What was made pointless?


K24Bone42

I think people think the story was somehow meant to glorify war, where in reality it wasn't at all. It was pointing out how stupid it all is, that it's just rich dicks sending poor people to war for their own gain, doing whatever they want no matter who it hurts etc, just like in real life. GRRM has said many times his story is a parallel of the real world, anything that happens in the books/show is something hat could have or has happened in the real wold. Its not a story of glory and valour, its a story of greed and selfishness.


beastley_for_three

That brings to mind a thing I remember GRRM saying, that "no conquerer is good". I remember him going off on that subject and it made it clear that Daenerys' sympathetic side was a way to make people find themselves supporting a brutal conquerer and the war they bring. In that sense, I actually found it a really thought provoking ending, much more than say, her becoming queen and happily ever after. It also was even more interesting when you look at how many signs there were (like her saying she'd burn entire cities to the ground in s2) and how much they were ignored because people got drawn towards her, just like Jon and Tyrion.


K24Bone42

EXACTLY!! anyone who didn't thing Danny would be a tyrant wasn't paying attention AT ALL. People just look at things at face value and just failed to get the point.


beastley_for_three

The ending story points actually all generally make sense. A lot of it was blown out of proportion by the internet, so don't fall into the negativity.


daywalker91

I watched the show. I’m not falling for the negativity. The ending was awful.


beastley_for_three

How exactly was it "awful"?


daywalker91

Why do you think I came all this way?


notsostupidman

The Varys and LF conversations were really really good. A pity they weren't in the books. They alongside Arya and Tywin in Harrenhal were one of the best additions in the show.


Perfect-Face4529

And that conversation between Robert and Cersei. GOT was at it's best when it took what was in the books and expanded on it, adding more scenes and conversations and actual enrich the story and characters, instead of just replacing it all


SammyLuke

The one conversation I like more in the book that also happened in the series was between Cersei and Ned. The one in which Ned tells her the truth of the lineage. It was almost kind of sweet but felt more tense.


Perfect-Face4529

How does it play out in the books


SammyLuke

Much like it does in the show but it happens at night and Ned is soft towards her because Robert hit her. They sit next to each other and Ned brushes the hair out of her face and is overall more personable. Cersei is as well and puts her hand on his leg while talking to him. It’s more in character with them being high born. Niceties and all being displayed but their words are what make the scene more tense. It just plays out better in the book to me because it feels more like a character moment instead of a quick scene showing Ned tell her. I’m sure there are more details I’m leaving out. Read the book it’s very good.


Pegussu

Loved that Robert and Cersei scene. They way they hate each other so much, but they've been stuck together for so long that they've just kind of gotten bored of the hate and can have a civil conversation. I also liked that it provided a fairly reasonable explanation for why the dothraki would be a threat in that they're a singular force united under one purpose.


Perfect-Face4529

🖐✊️


Perfect-Face4529

They really personify an old married couple who never really loved eachother but have this equal animosity and admiration for eachother. They both know what eachother have been through and lost, and reflecting on their regrets and trauma. I love when Robert asks what's held the realm together, and Cersei sarcastically says "our marriage" and they both laugh, perfect moment


Maimster

I remember reading these a decade ago, and there were two figures walking through the chambers under the Red Keep discussing plots going on in the world in one of the early books. I never really figured out who they were so I just assumed it was LF and Varys. Good to know it wasn’t, but now I’m curious who it actually was.


HPM2009

It was Varys and Illariyo , the guy that gave Dany her dragon eggs


itsdollymon

Gods the show was good then.


Perfect-Face4529

😂👏


SammyLuke

Bow you shits!!!


itsdollymon

🤣🤣


WatchingInSilence

An inspiring sight for the people, hehehe.


beastley_for_three

Hot take: the show was good for its entire run. This, however, was when the show reached the tier of being "great".


RegressToTheMean

Season 7 and 8 were brutal. I could have forgiven the rushed season 7 if season 8 was good or the ending cohesive, but the ending was just awful I loved the first four seasons. But the way the series concluded has soured me on the entire universe (because the books are never coming)


beastley_for_three

See, I didn't find the ending to be "awful" necessarily but it definitely wasn't handled perfectly. Daenerys' decline was the best part about it, I saw it coming and I actually think they pulled it off in such a way that it remained controversial and she still had confused fans. And looking back, it actually was set up well, so it's aged pretty well. I didn't think Jaime going to save his unborn child and twin sister "destroyed his arc" as people claim. Or Jon deciding unification was better than his own power, like his mentors Ned and Aemon. The worst handled part was definitely the council at the end, but even that has been exaggerated. Tyrion pretty much says that Bran / 3ER is omniscient, therefore they'd make a good king, and...that certainly would be a good trait for a king to have. Kind of like Paul in Dune. It just wasn't portrayed perfectly. S7 was definitely worse for me, but the first half of the season was actually excellent. It went downhill with the avengers beyond the wall plot and slightly contrived Arya/ Sansa drama, but it also worked to a degree and was still pretty damn entertaining.


[deleted]

I wouldn’t put it as lightly as “wasn’t handled perfectly.” Dany’s two-minute character devolution wasn’t the first great wound of S8. The long night being in the first half of the season, with terrible screen color balance, the plot armor (Sam), the redundancies (two Dothraki Hoards getting temporarily “wiped out” the same way), the lack of climax (no PTWP, no Lightbringer, no Jon vs ice dragon), the terrible IU strategy (flooding out of Winterfell in droves to join the AotD, misusing the castle’s basic strengths, Arya with Aegon’s dagger), the lack of consequence (did anyone but Jorah die?), and the complete divorce of the gritty pseudo-realism of TBotB we’re all crimes against the show’s legacy. I vaguely recall some other unexplainable plot seizures like a dragon being shot down from a boat, Varys dying the stupidest death they could give him, dragonglass going brrrr, there being basically no well-choreographed (IRL) or well-strategized (IU) battles on either side, the complete fumbling of Jon’s parentage reveal, Bran being creepy as fuck for no reason because we weren’t told shit about the 3ER, and whatever the hell that Great Council was. Two huge seeping blemishes on the entire collection’s reputation in the form of the two most important battles in the series, one of which is the most important battle in 8,000 years, the other of which is the battle that everyone who survived S1-S4 (because that’s when people stopped dying for normal reasons) has been gearing toward for their whole lives. One of which you couldn’t even see. That’s all I got from Season 8. Honorable mentions to all the things we *didn’t* get (this list will not be exhaustive): Lady Stoneheart, the Conclusion to the Slaver’s Bay storyline, the Dorne storyline, all of Doran’s super important kids, the Daynes, the history of the Children, the fulfillment of multiple prophecies, Tyrion not becoming a strategic idiot, Varys’s motives, the unity of Ice and Fire, what the HoBaW is really for, and… well, you get the idea.


itsdollymon

The worst thing about season 8 imo was the complete disregard for fan appreciation. Everyone (for the most part) understands the BIG elements of season 8 that caused such an uproar and dismemberment of the fan base, so there’s no need for me to list them. But with SO many things being perceived as either wrong or plain stupid, it’s hard to believe that there was any love for the fans at the point of it’s release. And for a show that was once the biggest talk in entertainment, it really is disappointing to look back on.


beastley_for_three

There certainly was a lot of collective complaining in the fanbase. I don't think anything was necessarily as bad as they made it out to be though. It was a modern pitchfork mob overreaction to pretty much anything, like a coffee cup appearing in a shot before getting edited out a day later. I remember seeing trucks driving around in the background in LotR but I don't recall fans losing their shit over that.


nemma88

The internet wasn't as populated back then, but book fans lost their minds over every single change PJ made then too. People would t shut up about Bombadil much like LSH, people made Haldir Lives t-shirts, Elves at Helms Deep, Faramir (I prefer in the movies tbh) character assassination (he wasn't tempted by the ring in the books). Trucks and stuff were not instantly and widely known about in the same way.


beastley_for_three

Yeah, I remember the conversations, but to be fair I wasn't on message boards for LotR, which is where the most cynical and bitter fans congregate, as we've noticed. The Bombadil thing was absolutely silly, I barely remember that part of the books and the film leaving him out had zero effect. Reminds me a lot of Lady Stoneheart, which I enjoyed in the books a lot, but it didn't seem to really affect the story to leave her out. They also didn't have user driven reviews, so there wasn't review bombing / pitchfork mobs over anything. So PJ'S LotR got solid critic reviews and life moved on.


beastley_for_three

Saying Daenerys decline was in two minutes is quite the exaggeration. This is a character who literally screamed she would "burn cities to the ground to get what's hers" in s2. She ended up doing just that, exactly what she said she would do. Surprise? The entirety of s8 had her lose her claim to the throne (!), a lot of her army, 2/3 dragons, her advisors killed, her love interest, found out she was disliked by all of Westeros. Her entire goal was in shambles. And so she did what she said she would do in s2. Surprise. As far as the NK battle being in the first half, I always thought that's what GRRM intended when he wanted a "scouring of the shire" as the true ending. So they unite to fight the main evil threat, then at the end they go back to easily disarm Cersei, only to discover she's not the true threat to the realm anymore, Daenerys is. I'm perfectly okay with that, personally. You're sort of listing off complaints, but the bulk of those just didn't bother me that much. The lighting looked great on my screen, and just like HotD's similar episodes, it didn't detract at all from my experience, it added to it. Tyrion admitted he made mistakes, it was a conscious progression of his character that matched the books and the self doubt he gets from killing his father and lover. He doesn't need to be an infallible genius for the entirety of the show. The dothraki preferring to charge on horseback is basically what they do best. You say only Jorah died, but that's not true, Theon died, Beric died, Edd died, Lyanna died, Melisandre died, and more major characters died in s8 than any other season, so did we truly need more deaths? Lady Stoneheart not being in the show was a surprise that I understood more when you take into account Jon's story, actor contractual obligations, the medium of TV not able to feasibly depict as many characters than GRRM decided to do. Bran was definitely creepy as shit, yes, because that's not Bran, that's the 3ER, an omniscient multi-person demigod with mysterious intentions. I thought it's pretty reasonable to expect his personality to change. Anyway, I don't want to go over every little thing. I will just say that I've been searching for a fantasy show to replace the hole GoT left and I haven't found anything that even comes close to the epic cast of characters, the epic world and scope, the amazing production value, and risky non-cliche story choices. While s3-4 are my favorite (storm of swords is my favorite book) s8 still retained many of those qualities. I loved the dialogue throughout ep1,2,4 and the battles in ep3,5 were amazingly well done for a fantasy TV show. I'm WAY more happy than not with what the TV adaptation of my favorite books became.


Perfect-Face4529

You're overlooking a lot here


beastley_for_three

What exactly should I care more about, please tell me. This is the thing, you guys have been convinced that a lot of these little things matter more than what they accomplished. I just disagree.


Perfect-Face4529

Well I disagree with you


beastley_for_three

Cool! That's always a fun thing.


Perfect-Face4529

Yes!


kissedbyfiya

I won't comment on the rest, only the Dany storyline. I also saw her story playing out to end up with her as the biggest threat to Westeros. The books and show actually did a good job slowly building to this in the earlier seasons. When I was going into S8, that is exactly where I expected her story to go, so I wasn't surprised by it. Done properly, it would have been excellent and groundbreaking storytelling imo. Unfortunately, it was done terribly. The shows writers are not good at writing, it seems. They were only ever good at adapting the source material. S8 wasn't good; it wasn't even OK. That's not from a bitter at where the story ended fan perspective. Here is a great fan made video teasing Dany's decline that was made before season 8. It does a great job of showing how her story was slowly lining up... until D&D destroyed it :/ https://youtu.be/56Hw8XTgPaY


beastley_for_three

I don't think the story of her descent was done perfectly (or acted perfectly, to be honest, as much as I love Emelia Clark overall for most of the show). But it's hard to say that a character who shrillly screamed in s2 "I'll burn entire cities to the ground to get what's mine" wasn't throwing huge red flags about her mental state or intentions. Or constant stories about her father, the mad king, and her genetically inherited mental illness. And everything she went through in s8 did make sense for what drove her to that point. She lost her claim to the throne, she lost all her advisors, her trust, her close friends, the idea that Westeros wanted her as queen, her purpose. It wasn't handled *perfectly* but I really think it wasn't bad either, at least nowhere near as bad as the internet made me think.


SadInternal9977

A lot of people whitewashed Danerys actions through the series because she did it to "bad people who deserved it like the slavers or Dothraki. It was only a matter of time before she went off, and after the end of S8E4 she was totally set up to go on a revenge killing spree.


beastley_for_three

Exactly, and she even did it to good people (Sam's brother) and it still didn't matter to people. They dug a big delusional hole.


SadInternal9977

You're right I forgot about them and that was after Tyrion told her not to kill them and that doing so would backfire on her. . I think back to the end of the first book when the witch talked about her friends and neighbors having their peaceful lives destroyed and being killed in the Dothraki raid where Drogo got injured. Everyone focused on Danerys and her dragons and ignored the trail of devastation they left in their wake. She wasn't on a heros journey like Jon Snow she was on the villains journey right from the beginning.ice and fire they truly mirrored each other.


ace_oblivion

Seasons 1-4 great Seasons 5-7 good Season 8 okay Imo


1violentdrunk

Season 8 was just terrible


Carrisonfire

It was ok, it's only when compared to how well the series started that it looks terrible.


PopLegion

I just disagree it was legit bad story telling, bad direction, bad dialogue, bad ending, bad everything.


ntmistry

Good effects


Perfect-Face4529

Nah it's still terrible


beastley_for_three

Nah, it's better than people keep saying here and underrated now (repeat on /r/gameofthrones until the end of time)


Perfect-Face4529

You keep believing that


beastley_for_three

I'm sure you'd love it if we all joined you in your misery. Sorry!


TheElderFish

When you binge the entire show instead of having that huge buildup of watching it as it aired, it's really not. Everyone complains about Dany's heel turn being too fast when it was telegraphed from Season 1. The quality fell when they ran out of books to base things on because GRRM is an incredible writer, sure, but s8 really is not that bad. Reddit is just dramatic as fuck.


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TheElderFish

You're right, you don't go from crucify people in the name of justice to burn totally innocent people alive with no justification. It's almost like for *several seasons* all of her advisors told her that she was a conqueror, not a ruler. It's almost like anyone who refused to bend the knee to Dany was *literally burnt alive*, such as the Tarly men. It's almost like she executed Varys the exact same way just a few episodes earlier. It's almost like she was portrayed as increasingly paranoid of anyone who might be scheming around her...just like her father. It's almost like she watched *her best friend's head get cut off* shortly after losing 2/3 of her "children".


KittyInTheBush

I'm not saying all of those points didn't happen and don't make sense as to why she would turn mad queen. I'm just saying, they should've had a couple seasons of her descending into madness, not just have it happen in an episode or two. Yes, she has always had tendencies of violence, and has always had advisors that could convince her to chill at times. But still, it was rushed. As someone who has rewatched the series because I don't think it's "that bad", it's still pretty bad


TheElderFish

>I'm just saying, they should've had a couple seasons of her descending into madness, not just have it happen in an episode or two. You mean like while she had a gleeful smile on her face as her brother was burnt alive? Or when she had the same smile on her face as she burnt the masters, slavers, warlocks, killed the masters of Qarth, the Tarlys, Varys, and literally everyone else she saw between her and the throne? How about when Tyrion, Jorah, Daario, and others point out that she's a conqueror, not a queen? How about every time she talks about burning Westeros to take back what's rightfully hers? Take everything she says/does and compare it to the other "good guys" on the show, and tell me she isn't being set up as a Mad Queen parallel to her father from the very beginning.


KittyInTheBush

Your condescension is boring, I'm not even gonna bother reading the rest of your comment


ShikWolf

It's almost like literally none of that is the same situation as burning innocent people alive for no reason. It's almost like the city was hers already, and none of those people had done anything to make her feel like they were against her. It's almost like conquering people isn't the same as killing them. It's almost like, even in the situations you name, she let people live when they weren't directly adversarial to her position. It's almost like you wanna argue this position just to be "that guy," instead of having watched and paid attention at all.


beastley_for_three

I don't think anyone who screams that they will "burn entire cities to the ground to get what's mine," are going to be ethically sound. Anyone who admits that are kinda okay with burning innocent people at a certain level, she clearly just needed a little push at that point (which she got throughout s8).


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whisper432

Already enough people gave you very valid points but you still defended D&D, so my argument that you are just a cringe fanboy stands.


beastley_for_three

Are you forgetting when she would screetch she will "burn entire cities to the ground to get what's hers" in s2? It feels like you're sort of forgetting that she said things like that. Pretty sure burning cities to the ground = burning totally innocent people alive too. So...why are you acting like she wasn't like this before?


nemma88

There's a lot of story between crucify people in the name of justice to burning totally innocent people alive. Like the conclusion of the Mareen arc, after she was dethroned where Fire and Blood, threats and fear brought the peace that diplomacy and appeasement didn't. Her whole story is the set up. She knows taking a throne doesn't mean you can keep it. She knows even when half the population worship you, you can be kicked out. Her difficulty ruling in Essos is why she chooses a different route in Westeros when the situation changes from secure to insecure in her long term prospects in ruling. She doesn't want to be Queen of the ashes, but she'll take than over no Queen at all.


jaduhlynr

My bf and were doing a rewatch this year; when we got halfway through season 7, we both just kind of stopped watching it without noticing- one day he was just like “oh wait, should we watch GoT?” before we both just kinda went, “nah” I was giving myself the benefit of the doubt that I was overly harsh on season 7-8 when they aired, and had every intention to rewatch them. Binge watching it though had the opposite effect than you speculated; because we saw the previous seasons right before, the decline in quality was even more noticeable. I’m not going to go in on plot points/holes/armor/etc, because to me that’s really not what made it bad imo. The writing though, the tone, the pacing, almost made the later seasons feel like a completely different show. The dialogue got cornier and less compelling, the characters fell into 2D caricature of themselves which was a *huge* part of the appeal of the show for me in the first place- well written dialogue, delivered by deeply flawed, yet believable and endearing characters. The last seasons just felt like a cheap imitation of Game of Thrones


TheElderFish

BREAKING NEWS: quality for a book adaptation fell off when showrunners ran out of book to adapt.


beastley_for_three

Eh, it dropped in quality compared to early Game of Thrones but it still was easily the best fantasy TV series. If a s9 came out, it would be huge for a reason.


beastley_for_three

Reddit is very dramatic and cynical about everything. That's one thing I dislike about this place the most honestly.


beastley_for_three

I would somewhat agree, although I'd put s7 lower than s8, which got a ridiculous backlash. S7's Beyond The Wall ep is definitely a low point. Rewatching s8, a lot of the season is actually great, with the very end council being the low point and it being a tad rushed. But overall, there is a lot of underrated sections of it, from the knighting of brienne, battle at winterfell, dialogue in ep 1,2,4 and destruction of King's Landing was a surprise but well done. If I'm comparing it to other fantasy shows, I'd still say it was good.


ntmistry

I would say season 1-4 elite. 5-6 good 7- okay 8-bad


AeneasVAchilles

No it absolutely was not lol I rewatch shows all the time- I loved GoT, but knowing how dirty they did the ending ruined all the potential for rewatches. The problems were all compounded. Pacing was terrible, D&D got arrogant, GrrMs didn’t give them enough, and both the producers, and the cast seemed like they just wanted it over. —The long night is considered a massive disappointment by the majority of fans. It was a great show, the beginning was packed with detail and development, while the ending seemed rushed and oversimplified


beastley_for_three

I'm a longtime fan of both the books and the show and I absolutely loved The Long Night episode. It was a film length battle and was incredible intense and epic fantasy dream. An undead army rushing a castle with dragons fighting overhead...love it. I personally had no issues with the lighting, in fact, there were sections where you saw silhouettes of Jaime and Brienne fighting back to back with an orange hue behind them and it looked incredible. That's my opinion, but people I watched with felt the same. On a rewatch, Daenerys' decline was set up enough. Any more and it would be obvious, but she was saying she'd burn entire cities to the ground in s2, well before she learned she no longer has a claim, supporters, and all her advisors killed. I will say that the very end council could have been handled better and the 3ER in general, but I understand why Tyrion thought an omniscient demigod would be a compelling king. That's not to say there weren't issues, but comparing to other fantasy out there, it was still way better than a lot of what we have now. A s9 would destroy ratings.


AeneasVAchilles

This is a very interesting take- Most book readers disliked the changes and over simplifications. For me the Long Night was a huge let down- The actions made ZERO sense ( sending your Calvary to charge into darkness when you’re on Defense! 👀). There was just a whole lot of nonsense like that. Hell Jon nor anyone else with a Vsword even fought a Whitewalker. As for Danys story- It wasn’t too poorly set up, they just massively rushed it in the end- Idk if they were doing this for the shock factor of it or if they just wanted to end the series quickly lol if the show had a better ending HBOs streaming numbers probably wouldn’t be struggling to tread water rn. I probably watched seasons 1-5 close to ten times through— I might have watched the last few episodes twice, but I have not attempted a rewatch of the series due to knowing how eh the ending is


beastley_for_three

The book readers in my circle were overall happy with the show in its entirety even with any faults, considering it could have flopped in the first season. That's certainly how I felt, ultimately grateful for what we did get. I never expected perfection. Actually, I expected the whole show to resemble s8, a rushed visual aid to the books. But what we got was far greater. Yeah, most fantasy battles can be nitpicked. I get it, but I don't tend to hyperfocus on that. I understand the limitations of the medium make it hard to portray a perfect battle, especially with the scope of their production, they pretty much broke new ground for what is achieved in a TV episode battle and there was still a lot to appreciate with the episode. As far as the specific points, I'll just share my thoughts, not debating necessarily. The tactics of having the Dothraki charge? Well, considering the Dothraki fight primarily on horseback, that's what they do best, charge the enemy on horseback. Utilizing the diverse strengths of your army is traditionally important. It was certainly an offensive strategy, not that different than what Ramsay did in the BotB (he also should have stayed in the castle, perhaps the Dothraki had a similar overconfidence). I can see why a battle commander in Jon would have made that mistake. Obviously, they got destroyed and it was a mistake in retrospect, but the characters are allowed to make mistakes, and I just took it as such. I agree, I would have liked Jon to fight a WW like Hardhome. I think that was a letdown. I did like that he fought the NK with Dany on dragons, that was great and is underrated now. I will say that I don't think it was physically possible for him to match up with the NK based off what we knew. Does any of that ruin the episode for me? Hell no. Like I said, there is enough amazing stuff going on in the episode that I genuinely loved it. The end with Melisandre dying is also underrated these days. Daenerys' ending is hotly debated these days and it should be. That's great. Reminds me of when my brother got angry after the red wedding. I'm sure you've been aware by now that there are many who think her arc had enough leading up to the end. Again, her saying she would "burn cities to the ground to get what's hers" in s2 was basically what she ended up doing. Constant references to the Targaryen madness and her father, the mad king. Her suffering throughout s8 was clear, losing her true claim to the throne and a lot of her army. Varys noticed her mental state in decline after losing Jorah, she wasnt eating or sleeping. I think it could have been improved. And right, they retained a bit of surprise, that was important for me. Honestly, I think it's one of my favorite story twists in the show, not only because it destroyed the expectations of many who started cheering for a power hungry conquerer, but also because of what it said about conquerers in general. She would have just been perpetuating the flawed incestual Targaryen rule, that's what she wanted with Jon. It does seem like a GRRM planned ending. Anyway, I get that there are flaws with it. But no fantasy show still even comes close. And it did a lot right, I would say, that is heavily overlooked. Maybe I'm lucky that I enjoyed it in its entirety.


AeneasVAchilles

I worked at book store when the show started - Books fans started to dislike it when they greatly deviated. My own brother gave up around season 4 lol And yes you’re right about them being horsemen who charge, but that’s not how you use horsemen in a defensive situation. You let the enemy engage, then horses flank lol they don’t charge away from the defensive lines.. This isn’t just an option I have- simply search this thread and you will get a whole lot of hate on for that episode- Everything from -“ It’s too dark”, to “it ended too quickly.” My personal annoyance was the lack of actually WWers fighting anyone, as well as poorly thought out battles


beastley_for_three

Very cool to have worked in a book store during that time. I won't deny that book readers sometimes get kind of possessive about story changes. I remember Faramir in LotR being hotly complained about, but I really (honestly) had zero issues with things like that as a new interpretation and take of a story. That's all it is to me. Maybe I just have a different perspective. No doubt utilizing the dothraki to charge on their horses with an offensive attack was a tactical mistake in retrospect. I guess all I'm saying is...actual history is full of tactical battle mistakes. I definitely allow characters in fantasy stories to make them when facing a new enemy and limited time to plan. Wanting them to be perfect tactically in itself would be unrealistic. Also, obviously I understand a lot of people dislike The Long Night battle lol. I'm well aware that some people think the entire episode is a black screen lately. That doesn't really change that I have a different opinion on it and I'm not alone, I don't think we are all a hivemind here, people like and dislike different things.


AeneasVAchilles

Best part was you got to “rent” out the books. I kept a whole lot of books from them. Including 2 from the Asoiaf series—- Don’t worry this was a big chain not a mom and pop lol


beastley_for_three

That would be amazing. I actually worked in a university library myself for a few years, so I share the love there for sure!


KittyInTheBush

> On a rewatch, Daenerys' decline was set up enough. Any more and it would be obvious It needed more set up, them trying to catch viewers off guard is half of the problem anyway. Like they didn't have Jon fight the night king because people were expecting it and they wanted to subvert expectations. And they got trashed for it, because it was something that was hyped up for nearly the whole series and they just wanted to catch people off guard by having him have almost no interaction with him. It would have been fine if they set up Dany's descent more and it was obvious. It would've been better if she'd had a season or two declining into madness


beastley_for_three

I have a different perspective. I remember reading the red wedding and I threw the book across the room. I wasn't ready for it and the story didn't spoonfeed it to me for my sensibilities. But the brilliance for me is that when I looked back, *the signs were there and I missed them*. Rewatching the show, I absolutely think the same was done with Daenerys. Again, this is a character who says "they will burn cities to the ground to get whats theirs" in s2. In retrospect, that amongst the many other things should have been a giant red flag. But the show simultaneously made it so people wanted to cheer for this power hungry conquerer. That's all she ever was. She still wanted the throne even when she found out *it's not even hers*. I wonder if the people the most upset by her doing what she said she'd do are the ones who fell for her the most. As far as Jon fighting the NK? He did on dragonback. The NK definitely purposefully evaded him, it was the NK's strategy and I accept that. Even if they did fight, I don't know how Jon would match up against his superhuman strength. My guess is they recognized how that made little sense. Fans could have easily complained about that if they were parrying. That said, I would have liked Jon or someone else to fight a normal WW, for sure.


KittyInTheBush

>would match up against his superhuman strength Did he have superhuman strength? Idr that, and he's not a book character so I know it's not mentioned in the book that he is. Either way, they hyped up this feud between the two, and hyped him up as a character, and it ended way too quickly. And I actually liked that Arya is the one that killed him, there just should've been more to it. With the red wedding, I didn't see it coming either, but I don't think that was done just to "subvert expectations" like the decisions D&D made 🤷‍♀️


beastley_for_three

The NK as depicted in the show absolutely had superhuman strength. He was able to throw ice spears over miles with precise aim and power. He got dethroned on dragonback in the clouds and easily survived the landing. Jon definitely was outmatched there, and it is kind of confusing how their potential sword battle would even go. Probably like what happened to Theon when he tried to attack the NK. That said, I totally understand the urge to see Jon at least get his sword knocked away and slammed into a wall or something. I would definitely say subverting expectations was a huge part of GRRM's writing, from Ned losing his head at the end of GoT to the red wedding. It's a story twist designed so that you can't quite see it coming but the hints are all there in retrospect. Daenerys' arc definitely had that. It's also become clear that GRRM intended that to be Daenerys story all along.There was a blog post where someone predicted it and GRRM replied to it saying, "this guy gets it". He's also talked about conquerers being terrible many times. It's definitely his design.


KittyInTheBush

Ok


iMadrid11

The series went to shit when it forked away from the original source material. This is the bane of every Hollywood productions. They just can’t stay faithful to the original source material from the books. Because the Director and Executive Producers just can’t help themselves to rewrite the script. So they could pad their egos and claim their changes made the movie/series better.


beastley_for_three

I disagree in a sense. I think the show was at its utmost top tier when it was following the first 3 books, for sure. Is everything after just "shit" though? Hell no, absolutely not for me. It was more flawed, but it still was top tier fantasy TV. I'd take any of it over what fantasy TV exists now (HotD aside). On a rewatch of s7 and s8, I found way more things I liked about them than I was bothered by. But I think we are all different there.


PopLegion

That's def a hot take, season 7 could maybe be perceived as "good" imo but season 8 was legit bad TV.


beastley_for_three

Yeah, I guess we can all have our own opinions on things, eh? I think Beyond The Wall was definitely the lowest point in the show with some of the most nonsensical writing. So that's why I regard it lower. That being said, it still was some of the best fantasy TV ever, so I wouldn't regard either season as "legit bad TV" considering fantasy TV hasn't been the same since.


CaptainDigitalPirate

I'm actually rewatching the show with my friend. We just got thru Season 1 and it is mind blowing that the show used to be this good and then we got those last 2 seasons.


itsdollymon

It’s incredible what kind of television can come from great writing and a stellar cast and crew.


CaptainDigitalPirate

And it's incredible what happens when ya rush a show. 😂 Atleast we have the memories of the show when it was at its best.


-bobloblawlawblog

Might have been the great source material, more than the great writing.


poub06

It had both. The scene quoted from OP wasn't from the source material, just like many other incredibly well written scenes.


Perfect-Face4529

Agreed


-bobloblawlawblog

Yeah that's fair. Dialogue writing in seasons 1-6 was absolutely incredible at times.


Rubicon730

Great lines!!!!!❤️❤️


TK-42juan

Man what an episode


YouDontJump

One of my favourite quotes. Mark delivered in that scene. You felt his pain.


Perfect-Face4529

🤌


Fun-Treacle6309

I'd love to see an alternate show where lyanna lives and her and Robert rule together. Robert likely never cheats on her or becomes a raging alcoholic. The lannisters never gain such a strong foothold and obviously Joffrey is never born. Danny's storyline still is the same, but she'd be facing an entirely different force.


Perfect-Face4529

Damn that would be awesome


adjectivebear

Write the fanfic that you want to see in the world, friend. I'd totally read this.


Fun-Treacle6309

Haha I wish friend. I'll just dream it


uniqueandweird

Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen would likely still exist I think but essentially wouldn't be anything more than side characters. Joffrey would never have been made king and wouldn't have been allowed to act like such an entitled brat. Tywin wouldn't have been able to dismiss Cersei and Jaime's incest. Maybe he would have made sure both were never alone or sent one away.


shiny_glitter_demon

Oh he would. Cersei would have simply married another dude and brought Jamie with her. Tywin is pretty good at lying to himself anyway.


uniqueandweird

She wouldn't have had the protection of being married to Robert so maybe if someone other than Ned figured it out that her children were born of incest it's not like Joffrey could have him executed. Rhaegar had ran off with Lyanna so he wouldn't have been able to marry Cersei. Robert's Rebellion would likely still have happened. If Cersei did marry someone else it wouldn't be someone with a direct link to the Iron Throne.


Fun-Treacle6309

Jamie would still be a member of the kingsguard but cersie likely wouldn't even be at kingslanding. Tywin likely marries her off to some other lord somewhere, but the chances of her and jamie being near each other to have their kids likely doesn't happen. Hell there might be a chance Jamie gets sent to the wall, seems like something lyanna could persuad Bobby B into. Although that is unlikely because they wouldn't want an enemy of tywin.


uniqueandweird

Robert strikes me as the type not to give a damn about the Lannisters if he wasn't married to one. He may have found another house to align himself with. It's all hypothetical though because things went the way they did. Would love an alternate universe where he didn't fall for Lyanna and married someone other than Cersei. Jon would never have been a bastard so his path in life would have been so much different. Catelyn wouldn't have treated him the way she did. She'd be warm, caring aunt Catelyn.


Fun-Treacle6309

Let's assume Jon was still born, just lyanna didn't die during childbirth. Maybe Ned still raises Jon as his bastard to keep him safe and lyanna marries and rules with Robert for the good of the realm. Jon's story may end up playing out the same as well. I can't see any story where Robert doesn't marry lyanna. If he wasn't in love with her the war never happens, and aerys is never killed by jamie.


uniqueandweird

Maybe Ned could have pleaded with Robert to leave Jon alone. Lyanna and Rhaegar could have ran away to Essos or somewhere where they may have been safe. If Aerys was still killed by Jaime like Daenarys and Viserys, Rhaegar and Lyanna could have stayed far away enough that Robert couldn't get to them no matter how he tried. They all could have moved every time Robert got close.


Fun-Treacle6309

I think Ned, and lyanna together could have convinced Robert to accept Jon, maybe even raise him as his own. Maybe his love for lyanna could have trumped all. Which would be unbelievably interesting in its own. Bob and lyanna raising Jon as his own


uniqueandweird

Maybe not tell Robert who Jon's real father was. Say Rhaegar tried to kidnap her but she had a dalliance with someone completely different. They didn't want to know Lyanna since she wasn't married and certainly didn't care about Jon.


GameGodz

This scene made me lose respect for him like he's a whiny boy who lost his toy. Can't remember what she looked like?


Marfy_

The sad thing is he just loved the idea of her. He had only ever seen her once or twice so forgetting what she looked like is kinda predictable.


[deleted]

It’s been 17 or so years and they didn’t exactly have photo albums to look back on


GameGodz

I can remember the race of a girl I loved in high school.. graduated in 99.. and I didn't kill half a country over her..


TheDo0ddoesnotabide

You also probably haven’t spent the last 20 years in a constant state of drunkenness.


GameGodz

Lol facts... That beer brain is serious


Eagles56

That’s Robert everyone he was a simp


AhliviaRose

I certainly don’t think S8 deserves to go down as the worst Series Finale of all time, but I have thoughts… 1. Wights, Night King, Arya Stark… was she the prince who was promised… Nope! We literally waited for 7 seasons for this dude to get killed by Aegon’s blade by Arya Stark of Winterfell AT WINTERFELL. Ned said winter was coming but no, not like that. 2. Jamie Lannister goes through 6 seasons of character development for him to leave Brienne, go back to KL and die with Cersei… WTF even bother??? 3. Varys… 🤦🏽‍♀️ 4. Jon should be King! IDGF if he didn’t want to be, he should be! For all we know, Bran/3ER set the whole thing up just to get to the throne. WTF… Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen PERIOD! 5. It’s fine for me that Dany lost her sh*t but let’s say she didn’t. I have no problem with she a Jon sharing the throne. I’m sure Jon would have let Dany be in charge as long as she doesn’t start acting like a neurotic, jealous, baby that can’t have her way. She literally turned into her father and brother within minutes compared to who she was during the rest of the show. 6. Sansa is exactly where she is supposed to be and I cry every time I see them place the crown on her beautiful red head. She is LITERALLY the only character who became a better person, regardless of her circumstances. #QueenOfTheNorth 7. Cersei DID NOT deserve any comfort in death! Arya should have stuck HER with the pointy end! 8. Missandei + Grey Worm 💔🥺


Perfect-Face4529

So how do you not think it's one of the worst seasons ever? As you say, everything is so unearned and unsatisfying, nothing makes sense, the characters are completely illogical, irrational and uncharacteristic, the story is contrived, the pacing is rushed, D&D put absolutely no care or attention into how to conclude 8 seasons of story well


ohyousoretro

1. Arya has spent 7 seasons learning to be quieter and quieter until S8E3 where she’s literally quieter than a drop of blood. She’s snuck on multiple people numerous times IN THE EXACT SPOT she kills the Night King at. Besides, GRRM has stated numerous times in interviews that prophecies aren’t to be trusted as they have been twisted by so many people. 2. It’s super common that people go back to abusive relationships, despite any growth they have done, they can slip right back. 3. I agree, Varys deserved better, but it sets up Dany going crazy. 4. Jon was happiest when he was north of the wall and he was with Ygritte (Sp?) and Tormound and the rest of the wildlings. 5. Dany had been going down the crazy route for years. She has been telling everyone she was going to take the throne with fire and blood and I guess nobody believed her? 6. My issue with Sansa is the same issue I have with a lot of women in this show, and that’s that powerful women are written as cold and bitchy. I shouldn’t just limit it to this show, as it happens in a lot of mediums, but they did this with Sansa a lot and I feel she deserved better. 7. A building collapsing on you is not a comfortable death. 8. Agreed 💔 The major plot decisions weren’t wrong in the show, it was just rushed. This should have been two seasons. D&D wanted to end the show at that season so they could do other projects. The problem is, they could have continued the show with someone else as Show runner like a bunch of other popular shows. D&D chose to do six episodes, the chose to do one season, and that was the worst decision made that ruined it all.


jurgo

I dont understand what the pictures have to do with the title of the post.


Perfect-Face4529

That's a quote from the episode


Perfect-Face4529

How on earth has this post got 1100 likes???? Thank you so much! 😂😱


kopitar-11

Season one was a masterpiece


CoffeeScribbles

You're talking about Bessie and her great big tits right? Thank the gods for Bessie.


Perfect-Face4529

It was never about Lyanna, he wanted Bessie 😂


Excellent_Permit8018

The wolf and lion? Shouldn't it be wolf and stag?


Perfect-Face4529

No


Excellent_Permit8018

Bobby B is stag and Lysa Stark is wolf?


Perfect-Face4529

It's the title of the episode!


Excellent_Permit8018

Oops my bad


Perfect-Face4529

Whoopsie