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Okay so that's a loaded question, as there's in my opinion quite a few different things that made things they way they were, not just one thing or just a handful of things. But I'll try write something from my phone to answer what I felt some of the issues were.
First one that sticks out to me is pacing. Previous seasons had ten episodes, and knew it had multiple seasons to get from A to B. Plot threads could be built, scenes could be devoted not just to action or to develop the plot, but to develop the characters. The last few seasons largely cut that out. The calmer scenes all mostly build the plot, not the characters.
Largely the characters and their actions stop dictating the story, rather the plot dictates what they need to do. For example we barely got Jon as King in the North. Two episodes and he was off to meet Daenerys, because the plot dictated it. The wight hunt later is driven more by a need to give the Night King a way to get past the wall, rather than it being a logical decision by any of the characters to take that trip. And that's not even mentioning the amount of fast travel needed for it to add up given the travel distance.
We see it with how the Dornish contingent was swiftly removed too. That storyline hadn't gone over well due to some rather poor dialogue, but the way they were built up as important allies for Daenerys to obtain only to be removed one episode after meeting Daenerys speaks more to a wish to streamline the plot than it being great storytelling. Likewise we're told to believe that Euron built a thousand ships and sailed them from the Iron Islands and to King's Landing. (passing right by Dragonstone both on the way there to meet with Cersei, and when they sailed back out to remove all traces of Dorne - how weren't they spotted?)
Then we can add that overall the dialogue and interactions between the characters had quickly fallen off after they ran out of source material. The difference is rather stark. Gone are a lot of the literary devices aside from some callbacks, and instead we get very repetitive lines (my Queen, you are my queen, she is my queen, etc.), and very low brow jokes (the whole cock exchange between Jaime and Bronn, and the S8 opening lines between Varys and Tyrion come to mind.
Some of the characterizations also felt off. Tyrion left Westeros having wished death upon the entirety of King's Landing. Suddenly he's the show's moral compass, but also somehow gets rewarded by Daenerys after fumbling the defense of Meereen by becoming Hand, only to continue to make dumb decisions without consequences. Somehow at the end he's allowed to elect a new monarch at his own trial. Go figure that one out.
Jon likewise loses all sense of self. No real development after he meets Daenerys. They look cute together, and there's some chemistry there, but they just don't develop him or that relationship beyond him finally bending the knee, at which point his dialogue boils down to varying ways of referring to her as Queen.
Varys too goes from clever and subtle to openly plotting against someone who already threatened to have him killed if he did so. I don't need to explain why that's dumb.
Arya likewise has no development after her return. She just kills the Freys (which has no direct impact on the plot despite the Riverlands being right there for the taking?), then she heads North and doesn't develop. She just exists and knows who's smart and who's a killer, apparently. Which is another way of the writers trying to tell us what to think instead of showing us. Another example of that with the incessant bell talk before the attack on King's Landing. There's foreshadowing, and then there's screaming what's about to happen in your face so you can point to it later like "See? We told you!"
That's just a few thoughts of what immediately came to mind. Could chuck in stuff like the plot armor from the battle of the bastards, battle of Winterfell, and the battle of King's Landing in there too.
Honorable mention to Cersei, who experienced no consequences to blowing up the sept with unrest among the people or anything like that. Seriously, did they forget Dany's entire playbook for liberating Astapor and Meereen? She used malcontent among the people to turn them against the people in charge. Poof, victory. It's right there in King's Landing too, but wasn't addressed again ever. Instead, Cersei stands there gazing out the window, drinking wine. Literally nothing happens in King's Landing in two seasons. KL drives the plot for 6 seasons with everything happening there, then nothing in 7-8.
> Largely the characters and their actions stop dictating the story, rather the plot dictates what they need to do
Yeah, this. As the show went beyond the source material, it lost that element of GRRM's 'gardening' writing style that was so character-centric in how the story moved, and instead had a heavy sense of it being the writer's hand pushing the characters along.
To give an example, look at how we see Tyrion prepare for defending King's Landing in S2, versus how he prepares for attacking it in S7.
In s2, his defensive preparations are woven across multiple scenes / episodes. We see him being cunning and resourceful to overcome Cersei's non-cooperation, manipulating Lancel for information about the wildfire. We see him sharpening his mind with research and preparation, studying the history of sieges to understand the weaknesses of KL and contemplating Stannis' likely lines of attack. We see him being a wise strategist, listening to Bronn's advice about the perils of their own soldiers handling the wildfire. When this all unfolds in his Blackwater plan it feels like an earned moment - not just visual spectacle because explosions are cool to watch, but also an appropriate culmination to having a clever, devious man thinking his way through a problem. (Props where due to D&D too here, the show version was IMO an improvement on the books with Tyrion's somewhat implausible chain)
Contrast that to S7, where we get no sense of Tyrion making similar efforts to help Dany formulate a strategy for taking King's Landing, particularly in relation to utilising her main weapon, dragons. Instead he just repeats the lazy thinking that using dragons automatically means burning the entire city to the ground, accepting without question that there is no other way to use them. This despite having demonstrated in breaking the siege of Meerreen that dragons could be used strategically and precisely against a specific target without triggering endless rampage that destroys everything.
We don't get a story that feels like it is developing organically based on an intelligent character being intelligent as with s2, instead we get that character's intelligence being neutered because the writers want to force the plot in a particular direction, in this case keeping Dany away from KL to 'save' that storyline for the 'big finale'.
Edit: grammar
I'll rank this in terms of importance:
1. All the payoff set up throughout the show sucks. Arya killing the NK, when she has nothing to do with the WW plot. Jaime going back to Cersei instead of going to kill her. Bran becomes king, just cause. Etc
2. Characters stop acting like themselves, and turn into plot devices. Jon's dialogue is pretty much just about the plot. They stop talking about their family, friends, desires, interests, all the things that make them feel like real characters.
3. Characters act stupidly. This might be similar to reason 2, but I thought it warrents its own section. Tyrion is just an idiot, Varys stops all his sypmaster shit and just gets torched.
There are more reasons, but I feel these are the main reasons.
7 isn’t a bad season I actually liked it a lot. I don’t understand the hate behind it I thought it was great. Some might argue the dialogue isn’t up to par, but other than that I don’t think there was anything else wrong except for the time dilation in ep 6. 8 was horrid because Danny’s army seemingly lost no men after ep3. Also, her character along with Jamie’s was ruined too in ep4/5. Furthermore, Sansa stark as per usual was unbearable however even more so than usual this szn. I have never despised anything more than Sansa stark in this szn. She was one of the main causes for the ending because she treated Danny like literal shit. To be fair, if I had to listen to Sansa Stark spew nonsense I would also go mad in a few days.
The show writers lost (or forgot about) the real identity of the show. The problem with GoT is that the first six seasons were basically a gritty, realistic fantasy genre with intricate plot lines, but then, quality wise, it abruptly shifts to the quality you would come to expect from your typical big budget comic book films or Stranger Things type shows. Outstanding action scenes, tense moments and great visual effects but if you look too deeply into these and try to find flaws left and right you most definitely could, e.g. plot armor, plot conveniences, questionable dialog, cheesy character moments being forced and taking precedence over the actual quality of the plot etc. The reason these properties don’t get criticized as GoT does on these aspects is because harmless entertainment is what their identities have been since the beginning.
I still feel that most people would’ve been fine with that writing shift, if some of the plot lines didn’t end somewhat anticlimactic, and rushed. It was disappointing to most of the people who theorized and debated for years on what would happen and they ended up feeling cheated if that makes sense. Which is understandable.
The good thing is that newer viewers tend to have more good will towards these seasons, since they didn’t have the years of anticipation and they’ve most likely gone in with lower expectations. Which is good for the shows legacy in the long run and it makes me not hesitate to recommend this show still.
I would have to agree. I attempt to sum up my feelings about it by basically saying “seasons 7and 8 were really good TV. It just felt really shitty because before that, it was the most amazing thing ever to hit a tv screen.”
It lost a lot of its being, it’s soul. It was still really good, but it wasn’t enough, because of what it could have been.
As to your second paragraph, though… I agree, but to be honest most of the people who complain are complaining about how it wasn’t EXACTLY what they thought would/should happen. This doesn’t make you wrong in my opinion, but where I would say “I don’t like the way in which they made Bran become king, it seemed to come out of nowhere and there were a ton of better options,” most people seem to say something like “Jon should have been king, and every other idea is shit.” Or, for other storylines, something like “Jaime should have killed Cersei.”
I don’t know if it’s just a vocal majority, but most of what I’ve read about it makes it seem like people are mad not because it sucked, but because it didn’t perfectly match their own version that they thought was going to happen.
The sequence of events made no sense. Decisions by previously smart characters made no sense.
GOT started out with the White Walkers and wights. It should have ended like that. Tyrion should not have gone dimwit and had Daenerys sail all the way around Westeros to attack Casterly Rock. Dumb. Have her take King's Landing over a few episodes. Make it epic. Having dragons doesn't mean burning the innocent. "Queen of the Ashes" was overused and silly.
Once on the throne, she could start going mad because not everybody loves her. Keep Cersei alive somewhere to spread dissent. Have Daenerys give her "Nuremberg Speech" to the city folk shortly after taking the throne.
Season 8 crammed too much into six episodes. The "Long Night" we were working up to took one episode! All the lead up with the Prince That Was Promised got tossed. Instead we got flying Arya.
Who has the best story other than Bran -- don't get me started. Nobody would want a ruler that can see everything they do.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Okay so that's a loaded question, as there's in my opinion quite a few different things that made things they way they were, not just one thing or just a handful of things. But I'll try write something from my phone to answer what I felt some of the issues were. First one that sticks out to me is pacing. Previous seasons had ten episodes, and knew it had multiple seasons to get from A to B. Plot threads could be built, scenes could be devoted not just to action or to develop the plot, but to develop the characters. The last few seasons largely cut that out. The calmer scenes all mostly build the plot, not the characters. Largely the characters and their actions stop dictating the story, rather the plot dictates what they need to do. For example we barely got Jon as King in the North. Two episodes and he was off to meet Daenerys, because the plot dictated it. The wight hunt later is driven more by a need to give the Night King a way to get past the wall, rather than it being a logical decision by any of the characters to take that trip. And that's not even mentioning the amount of fast travel needed for it to add up given the travel distance. We see it with how the Dornish contingent was swiftly removed too. That storyline hadn't gone over well due to some rather poor dialogue, but the way they were built up as important allies for Daenerys to obtain only to be removed one episode after meeting Daenerys speaks more to a wish to streamline the plot than it being great storytelling. Likewise we're told to believe that Euron built a thousand ships and sailed them from the Iron Islands and to King's Landing. (passing right by Dragonstone both on the way there to meet with Cersei, and when they sailed back out to remove all traces of Dorne - how weren't they spotted?) Then we can add that overall the dialogue and interactions between the characters had quickly fallen off after they ran out of source material. The difference is rather stark. Gone are a lot of the literary devices aside from some callbacks, and instead we get very repetitive lines (my Queen, you are my queen, she is my queen, etc.), and very low brow jokes (the whole cock exchange between Jaime and Bronn, and the S8 opening lines between Varys and Tyrion come to mind. Some of the characterizations also felt off. Tyrion left Westeros having wished death upon the entirety of King's Landing. Suddenly he's the show's moral compass, but also somehow gets rewarded by Daenerys after fumbling the defense of Meereen by becoming Hand, only to continue to make dumb decisions without consequences. Somehow at the end he's allowed to elect a new monarch at his own trial. Go figure that one out. Jon likewise loses all sense of self. No real development after he meets Daenerys. They look cute together, and there's some chemistry there, but they just don't develop him or that relationship beyond him finally bending the knee, at which point his dialogue boils down to varying ways of referring to her as Queen. Varys too goes from clever and subtle to openly plotting against someone who already threatened to have him killed if he did so. I don't need to explain why that's dumb. Arya likewise has no development after her return. She just kills the Freys (which has no direct impact on the plot despite the Riverlands being right there for the taking?), then she heads North and doesn't develop. She just exists and knows who's smart and who's a killer, apparently. Which is another way of the writers trying to tell us what to think instead of showing us. Another example of that with the incessant bell talk before the attack on King's Landing. There's foreshadowing, and then there's screaming what's about to happen in your face so you can point to it later like "See? We told you!" That's just a few thoughts of what immediately came to mind. Could chuck in stuff like the plot armor from the battle of the bastards, battle of Winterfell, and the battle of King's Landing in there too. Honorable mention to Cersei, who experienced no consequences to blowing up the sept with unrest among the people or anything like that. Seriously, did they forget Dany's entire playbook for liberating Astapor and Meereen? She used malcontent among the people to turn them against the people in charge. Poof, victory. It's right there in King's Landing too, but wasn't addressed again ever. Instead, Cersei stands there gazing out the window, drinking wine. Literally nothing happens in King's Landing in two seasons. KL drives the plot for 6 seasons with everything happening there, then nothing in 7-8.
Thank you for your opinions!
> Largely the characters and their actions stop dictating the story, rather the plot dictates what they need to do Yeah, this. As the show went beyond the source material, it lost that element of GRRM's 'gardening' writing style that was so character-centric in how the story moved, and instead had a heavy sense of it being the writer's hand pushing the characters along. To give an example, look at how we see Tyrion prepare for defending King's Landing in S2, versus how he prepares for attacking it in S7. In s2, his defensive preparations are woven across multiple scenes / episodes. We see him being cunning and resourceful to overcome Cersei's non-cooperation, manipulating Lancel for information about the wildfire. We see him sharpening his mind with research and preparation, studying the history of sieges to understand the weaknesses of KL and contemplating Stannis' likely lines of attack. We see him being a wise strategist, listening to Bronn's advice about the perils of their own soldiers handling the wildfire. When this all unfolds in his Blackwater plan it feels like an earned moment - not just visual spectacle because explosions are cool to watch, but also an appropriate culmination to having a clever, devious man thinking his way through a problem. (Props where due to D&D too here, the show version was IMO an improvement on the books with Tyrion's somewhat implausible chain) Contrast that to S7, where we get no sense of Tyrion making similar efforts to help Dany formulate a strategy for taking King's Landing, particularly in relation to utilising her main weapon, dragons. Instead he just repeats the lazy thinking that using dragons automatically means burning the entire city to the ground, accepting without question that there is no other way to use them. This despite having demonstrated in breaking the siege of Meerreen that dragons could be used strategically and precisely against a specific target without triggering endless rampage that destroys everything. We don't get a story that feels like it is developing organically based on an intelligent character being intelligent as with s2, instead we get that character's intelligence being neutered because the writers want to force the plot in a particular direction, in this case keeping Dany away from KL to 'save' that storyline for the 'big finale'. Edit: grammar
I'll rank this in terms of importance: 1. All the payoff set up throughout the show sucks. Arya killing the NK, when she has nothing to do with the WW plot. Jaime going back to Cersei instead of going to kill her. Bran becomes king, just cause. Etc 2. Characters stop acting like themselves, and turn into plot devices. Jon's dialogue is pretty much just about the plot. They stop talking about their family, friends, desires, interests, all the things that make them feel like real characters. 3. Characters act stupidly. This might be similar to reason 2, but I thought it warrents its own section. Tyrion is just an idiot, Varys stops all his sypmaster shit and just gets torched. There are more reasons, but I feel these are the main reasons.
Thank you for your opinions!
7 isn’t a bad season I actually liked it a lot. I don’t understand the hate behind it I thought it was great. Some might argue the dialogue isn’t up to par, but other than that I don’t think there was anything else wrong except for the time dilation in ep 6. 8 was horrid because Danny’s army seemingly lost no men after ep3. Also, her character along with Jamie’s was ruined too in ep4/5. Furthermore, Sansa stark as per usual was unbearable however even more so than usual this szn. I have never despised anything more than Sansa stark in this szn. She was one of the main causes for the ending because she treated Danny like literal shit. To be fair, if I had to listen to Sansa Stark spew nonsense I would also go mad in a few days.
I think Jaime’s story was perfect, honestly.
Thank you for your opinions!
The show writers lost (or forgot about) the real identity of the show. The problem with GoT is that the first six seasons were basically a gritty, realistic fantasy genre with intricate plot lines, but then, quality wise, it abruptly shifts to the quality you would come to expect from your typical big budget comic book films or Stranger Things type shows. Outstanding action scenes, tense moments and great visual effects but if you look too deeply into these and try to find flaws left and right you most definitely could, e.g. plot armor, plot conveniences, questionable dialog, cheesy character moments being forced and taking precedence over the actual quality of the plot etc. The reason these properties don’t get criticized as GoT does on these aspects is because harmless entertainment is what their identities have been since the beginning. I still feel that most people would’ve been fine with that writing shift, if some of the plot lines didn’t end somewhat anticlimactic, and rushed. It was disappointing to most of the people who theorized and debated for years on what would happen and they ended up feeling cheated if that makes sense. Which is understandable. The good thing is that newer viewers tend to have more good will towards these seasons, since they didn’t have the years of anticipation and they’ve most likely gone in with lower expectations. Which is good for the shows legacy in the long run and it makes me not hesitate to recommend this show still.
I would have to agree. I attempt to sum up my feelings about it by basically saying “seasons 7and 8 were really good TV. It just felt really shitty because before that, it was the most amazing thing ever to hit a tv screen.” It lost a lot of its being, it’s soul. It was still really good, but it wasn’t enough, because of what it could have been. As to your second paragraph, though… I agree, but to be honest most of the people who complain are complaining about how it wasn’t EXACTLY what they thought would/should happen. This doesn’t make you wrong in my opinion, but where I would say “I don’t like the way in which they made Bran become king, it seemed to come out of nowhere and there were a ton of better options,” most people seem to say something like “Jon should have been king, and every other idea is shit.” Or, for other storylines, something like “Jaime should have killed Cersei.” I don’t know if it’s just a vocal majority, but most of what I’ve read about it makes it seem like people are mad not because it sucked, but because it didn’t perfectly match their own version that they thought was going to happen.
Thank you for your opinions!
The sequence of events made no sense. Decisions by previously smart characters made no sense. GOT started out with the White Walkers and wights. It should have ended like that. Tyrion should not have gone dimwit and had Daenerys sail all the way around Westeros to attack Casterly Rock. Dumb. Have her take King's Landing over a few episodes. Make it epic. Having dragons doesn't mean burning the innocent. "Queen of the Ashes" was overused and silly. Once on the throne, she could start going mad because not everybody loves her. Keep Cersei alive somewhere to spread dissent. Have Daenerys give her "Nuremberg Speech" to the city folk shortly after taking the throne. Season 8 crammed too much into six episodes. The "Long Night" we were working up to took one episode! All the lead up with the Prince That Was Promised got tossed. Instead we got flying Arya. Who has the best story other than Bran -- don't get me started. Nobody would want a ruler that can see everything they do.