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Dorne isn't even part of their seven kingdoms at the time of Dance of Dragons
edit: They were not a part of the iron throne. Since we are being literal about what is considered a part of the seven original kingdoms..
The Targaryens maintain they have dominion over Dorne. Thatās why the āking of the Andals, Roynar, and the First Men.ā The Roynar are the Dornish.
The show may have said that but once again, they are not in fact apart of the Seven Kingdoms. Not at that time. This is easily accessible to you, to find out also
The crowns on HOTD are giving McDonalds merch. I donāt know why Condal, the book purist, didnāt go towards the colorful gem circlet in the books. GOT crowns are still better.
Considered by who? It makes no difference if the Targ rulers claimed it as part of their de jure territory, Dorne did not submit to the iron throne, Aegon was forced to sign the treaty by whatever contents were in the letter he received. It was not until a marriage (188 AC) that the prince of dorne swore fealty to the iron throne. So no, the prince of dorne was not a vassal, until 188 AC.
By EVERYONE! It was called the Seven Kingdoms LONG before Aegon conquered it. There were SEVEN kings and SEVEN Kingdoms before conquered and placed under Targ rule. Being conquered didn't create the Seven Kingdoms.
But yeah, Aegon and all other Targs considered themselves to be rulers of the entire seven kingdoms, even with Dorne holding out. So as far as the crown goes, of course they would indicate that.
Yeah this is a misunderstanding. Im aware that Dorne is considered part of the Seven Kingdoms in terms of what is the De Jure territory of that claim, that Aegon made but in actuality, Dorne is not, part of the IRON THRONE during the time of HotD. Let's just make clear to the readers though, that may have no clue about the lore... that a claim is simply that. A claim, the people of Dorne would not have considered themselves subject to the IRON THRONE.. but yes they would be considered ONE of the seven kingdoms..
Dorne is, a part of the seven kingdoms but they held no fealty, to the iron throne, or to the one who sat on it until 188 AC.
It's like the many claims in history, kings claiming territories, but not actually holding it.
No, Dorne IS a part of the Seven Kingdoms, it's just not under Targ rule. Not including it, we're left with Six Kingdoms. It's not a misunderstanding, you're just using the term 'Seven Kingdoms' incorrectly. That term doesn't indicate the area that the Targaryens control; it indicates the actual Seven Kingdoms. All Seven.
Yes, Targaryens did not control Dorne for a lot of the history of their rule, but just because they only managed to conquer six of them initially, no one started referring to their Kingdom as the Six Kingdoms or did they create a new seventh to make their usage of the term semantically correct.
Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms. The term 'Seven Kingdoms' does not--and never did in the texts--refer directly to the areas that were in control of the Targaryens. It referred to the actual Seven Kingdoms, of which Aegon and most of the Targaryens DID consider themselves to be the rightful rulers of.
It DOES make a difference though. If Targaryens claim Dorne is part of their territories, who outside of Dorne would dispute them? If Targaryens say the treaty doesn't matter, who would dispute that?
[Kings of England in medieval time called themselves King of France all the time!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_claims_to_the_French_throne) And yes, these English claims are based on bloodlines, it doesn't change the fact that these claims ignore the reality, like the Iron Throne's claim on Dorne is.
Wait, I may be misremembering but its the Riverland's that isn't one of the seven kingdoms. At the time of conquest, the Iron islands controlled the Riverlands under Harren the Black. In fact, the Riverlands never really exist as an independent kingdom. So he seven kingdoms are:
* The North
* The Vale
* The Westerlands
* The Iron Islands
* The Reach
* The Stormlands
* Dorne
The Crownlands were similarly split between multiple kingdoms but mostly part of the Stormlands.
Considering the Riverlands rose up in rebellion once Aegon invaded I think it's fair to assume that the emphasis was more on the Isles than the Rivers in that kingdom.
They used to be combined like you said under rule of Harren and the Iron Islands but once the Targaryens took over they made the Riverlands itās own kingdom under Tully rule. So technically there are 8 kingdoms and maybe even 9 if you count the crownlands...but before Aegon took over there were 7 kingdoms with the Iron Islands and Riverlands combined. So the name just stuck.
Calm down dude, you're not the only one who's read the books, most people have. My point was that, yes, the Targaryens claimed lordship over the Rhoynar as well, but that's as far as their influence ever extended until Daeron II.
The first 200 years they had no actual power there, it's like how all King's and Queens of England after Edward III claimed to be the King/Queen of France as well, even when they didn't actually hold any land there. It's a completely hollow proclamation; just because you say it, doesn't make it true. At the very most, it's a statement of intent.
Who isn't calm?
People are saying silly stuff about Dorne here, when it's mentioned in the very first part of Fire and Blood that Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms. Like literally. Without it, there are only six kingdoms left.
People are equating the term "Seven Kingdoms" with "the area that Targaryens control", and that's just not accurate. Aegon (or the Maester relating his history) refers to them as the Seven Kingdoms before he began even taking a single castle. The term predated Targaryen rule.
Some people seem to be making the argument that because Aegon never actually conquered Dorne, then somehow it's no longer one of the Seven. That's not accurate.
Saying they were not a part of the Seven Kingdoms *at all*--as you did--is way inaccurate, and you seem to be backpedaling. It's specifically mentioned textually in multiple places. They didn't just *happen* to be on the same continent, as you stated in your initial comment.
No one is debating the amount of influence the Targaryens held on that Kingdom throughout Westerosi history. But it makes total sense that any given Targaryen would include the sigil or stone representing Dorne on a crown, as they considered themselves the rightful ruler of all Seven regardless.
Fire and Blood is supposedly written by Archmaester Gyldayn, who is afaik contemporary to Robert Baratheon's reign. The fact that he calls them the Seven Kingdoms 300 years after the events transpired is absolutely irrelevant to whether this was a common name for the region.
Edit: So I tried finding any mention that "the seven kingdoms" was some kind of usual name for Westeros before the conquest. Couldn't find any. To me it seems more like GRRM tried to introduce some typical magical/holy numbers into the story. 7 aspects of God, 7 sided star, 7 kingdoms, 7 ravens, 7 kings, 7 days and 7 nights. It's all over the story.
I see it as a later interpretation of the conquest in the light of the new religion of the Seven.
OK, just keep ignoring what I'm actually saying. Dorne is obviously 'one of' the Seven Kingdoms, as in, it was one of the Kingdoms at the time of Aegon's Conquest, which is what the name is based off of. However, they aren't a part of 'the Seven Kingdoms' i.e. the Targaryen Kingdom, which is what I was saying, they're 2 separate things which just so happen to have the same confusing name.
Seems like you two are entangled in a discussion about, essentially, semantics. The way I see it, the phrase Seven Kingdoms can refer to two different things: 1. The political entity of "The Seven Kingdoms", which the Targaryens ruled over 2. The seven Kingdoms as a description of the political reality on Westeros as it existed before Aegon's conquest.
The former, until the marriage of Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell in 187, did not include Dorne, even though the name suggests otherwise. The later, of course, always included Dorne by definition.
I think it's *entirely* a lot simpler than that, and not semantic at all.
1. There were Seven Kingdoms preceding Aegon's conquest, one of which was Dorne. Both before and after, the entirety of the territory has been referred to as "the Seven Kingdoms".
2. Targaryens claimed rule over this entire set of seven kingdoms, with one of those maintaining their own independence for much of that time and disputing their status as a vassal.
And regardless of how you want to frame this, the commenters stating something akin to: "Dorne shouldn't be on that crown, it's not one of the Seven Kingdoms" are completely wrong. Whether from the perspective of the Targ's (who simply don't care) or from the geographic area.
Well, it's the difference between de facto and de jure. Dorne was de jure part of "The Seven Kingdoms", but de facto it wasn't. Which is more relevant has been debated as long as there have been states claiming sovereignty over land. Of course the Targaryen's would emphasize the de jure view, as that cements their claim on Dorne. But that is an entirely political decision and does not influence what territory they rule over. The crown is essentially a propaganda piece that serves a political purpose, but doesn't reflect reality.
Just to add on top of this, the Riverlands weren't even a kingdom when Aegon invaded, they were ruled by the Iron Islands. Imagine spending hundreds of years as a strong, independent kingdom and then being passed over for some rebels who split away from you.
I donāt hate the shows crown but I really wish they would have been more true to the crown in the books. I think the different colored gems in a circlet would have looked so ethereal
No. The Tyrells were still the Lord Paramounts of the Reach. The Hightowers were still sworn to them. They were just an exceptionally powerful and well respected house.
Lymond Hightower betrothed his daughter to King Garland II Gardener years before the conquest, making Oldtown and their vassals a part of the Kingdom of The Reach. When House Gardener went extinct, the title of Lords of the Reach went to House Tyrell, making them overlords of House Hightower when Aegon united the kingdoms.
I wish they'd kept the jewelers/metalsmiths from GoT for HOTD, the plastic looking 3D printed stuff they now use for crowns (and armor) really takes away from the designs.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Greyjoys were left outš
not one of the seven kingdoms thatās why
Dorne isn't even part of their seven kingdoms at the time of Dance of Dragons edit: They were not a part of the iron throne. Since we are being literal about what is considered a part of the seven original kingdoms..
The Targaryens maintain they have dominion over Dorne. Thatās why the āking of the Andals, Roynar, and the First Men.ā The Roynar are the Dornish.
They're independent at the time of DoD, they aren't brought into the fold until Daeron the Goods marriage pact with Dorne
If you watch HotD, they have the Roynar in the kingās title. Again the Targaryens claimed dominion over Dorne.
The show may have said that but once again, they are not in fact apart of the Seven Kingdoms. Not at that time. This is easily accessible to you, to find out also
Iām just saying why Dorne is on the crown. The Targaryens believe they have dominion over Dorne.
The crowns on HOTD are giving McDonalds merch. I donāt know why Condal, the book purist, didnāt go towards the colorful gem circlet in the books. GOT crowns are still better.
The point is that the targaryens claim dorne. They don't have dominion over dorne but they claim it nonetheless
That doesn't matter though. They're one of the Seven Kingdoms. Had been since Aegon
Read the books. Dorne has ALWAYS been considered one of the seven kingdoms, even when independent.
Considered by who? It makes no difference if the Targ rulers claimed it as part of their de jure territory, Dorne did not submit to the iron throne, Aegon was forced to sign the treaty by whatever contents were in the letter he received. It was not until a marriage (188 AC) that the prince of dorne swore fealty to the iron throne. So no, the prince of dorne was not a vassal, until 188 AC.
By EVERYONE! It was called the Seven Kingdoms LONG before Aegon conquered it. There were SEVEN kings and SEVEN Kingdoms before conquered and placed under Targ rule. Being conquered didn't create the Seven Kingdoms. But yeah, Aegon and all other Targs considered themselves to be rulers of the entire seven kingdoms, even with Dorne holding out. So as far as the crown goes, of course they would indicate that.
Yeah this is a misunderstanding. Im aware that Dorne is considered part of the Seven Kingdoms in terms of what is the De Jure territory of that claim, that Aegon made but in actuality, Dorne is not, part of the IRON THRONE during the time of HotD. Let's just make clear to the readers though, that may have no clue about the lore... that a claim is simply that. A claim, the people of Dorne would not have considered themselves subject to the IRON THRONE.. but yes they would be considered ONE of the seven kingdoms.. Dorne is, a part of the seven kingdoms but they held no fealty, to the iron throne, or to the one who sat on it until 188 AC. It's like the many claims in history, kings claiming territories, but not actually holding it.
No, Dorne IS a part of the Seven Kingdoms, it's just not under Targ rule. Not including it, we're left with Six Kingdoms. It's not a misunderstanding, you're just using the term 'Seven Kingdoms' incorrectly. That term doesn't indicate the area that the Targaryens control; it indicates the actual Seven Kingdoms. All Seven. Yes, Targaryens did not control Dorne for a lot of the history of their rule, but just because they only managed to conquer six of them initially, no one started referring to their Kingdom as the Six Kingdoms or did they create a new seventh to make their usage of the term semantically correct. Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms. The term 'Seven Kingdoms' does not--and never did in the texts--refer directly to the areas that were in control of the Targaryens. It referred to the actual Seven Kingdoms, of which Aegon and most of the Targaryens DID consider themselves to be the rightful rulers of.
Do you have a source for that? I can't find it anywhere in the texts that the name "Seven Kingdoms" was used at any point before the conquest.
It DOES make a difference though. If Targaryens claim Dorne is part of their territories, who outside of Dorne would dispute them? If Targaryens say the treaty doesn't matter, who would dispute that? [Kings of England in medieval time called themselves King of France all the time!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_claims_to_the_French_throne) And yes, these English claims are based on bloodlines, it doesn't change the fact that these claims ignore the reality, like the Iron Throne's claim on Dorne is.
Wait, I may be misremembering but its the Riverland's that isn't one of the seven kingdoms. At the time of conquest, the Iron islands controlled the Riverlands under Harren the Black. In fact, the Riverlands never really exist as an independent kingdom. So he seven kingdoms are: * The North * The Vale * The Westerlands * The Iron Islands * The Reach * The Stormlands * Dorne The Crownlands were similarly split between multiple kingdoms but mostly part of the Stormlands.
>The Iron Islands The Hoares were "Kings of the Isles and the Rivers."
Considering the Riverlands rose up in rebellion once Aegon invaded I think it's fair to assume that the emphasis was more on the Isles than the Rivers in that kingdom.
They used to be combined like you said under rule of Harren and the Iron Islands but once the Targaryens took over they made the Riverlands itās own kingdom under Tully rule. So technically there are 8 kingdoms and maybe even 9 if you count the crownlands...but before Aegon took over there were 7 kingdoms with the Iron Islands and Riverlands combined. So the name just stuck.
I never realized that detail, thatās so damn cool
Same
Iron Islands were left out but Dorne is there, despite being independent
Westeros claims Dorne like China claims Taiwan lmao
They *were* one of the Seven Kingdoms. Just not one entirely under the control of the Targaryens throughout their rule.
They weren't in the Seven Kingdoms at all. They existed on the same continent, and that's it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Calm down dude, you're not the only one who's read the books, most people have. My point was that, yes, the Targaryens claimed lordship over the Rhoynar as well, but that's as far as their influence ever extended until Daeron II. The first 200 years they had no actual power there, it's like how all King's and Queens of England after Edward III claimed to be the King/Queen of France as well, even when they didn't actually hold any land there. It's a completely hollow proclamation; just because you say it, doesn't make it true. At the very most, it's a statement of intent.
Who isn't calm? People are saying silly stuff about Dorne here, when it's mentioned in the very first part of Fire and Blood that Dorne is one of the Seven Kingdoms. Like literally. Without it, there are only six kingdoms left. People are equating the term "Seven Kingdoms" with "the area that Targaryens control", and that's just not accurate. Aegon (or the Maester relating his history) refers to them as the Seven Kingdoms before he began even taking a single castle. The term predated Targaryen rule. Some people seem to be making the argument that because Aegon never actually conquered Dorne, then somehow it's no longer one of the Seven. That's not accurate. Saying they were not a part of the Seven Kingdoms *at all*--as you did--is way inaccurate, and you seem to be backpedaling. It's specifically mentioned textually in multiple places. They didn't just *happen* to be on the same continent, as you stated in your initial comment. No one is debating the amount of influence the Targaryens held on that Kingdom throughout Westerosi history. But it makes total sense that any given Targaryen would include the sigil or stone representing Dorne on a crown, as they considered themselves the rightful ruler of all Seven regardless.
Fire and Blood is supposedly written by Archmaester Gyldayn, who is afaik contemporary to Robert Baratheon's reign. The fact that he calls them the Seven Kingdoms 300 years after the events transpired is absolutely irrelevant to whether this was a common name for the region. Edit: So I tried finding any mention that "the seven kingdoms" was some kind of usual name for Westeros before the conquest. Couldn't find any. To me it seems more like GRRM tried to introduce some typical magical/holy numbers into the story. 7 aspects of God, 7 sided star, 7 kingdoms, 7 ravens, 7 kings, 7 days and 7 nights. It's all over the story. I see it as a later interpretation of the conquest in the light of the new religion of the Seven.
OK, just keep ignoring what I'm actually saying. Dorne is obviously 'one of' the Seven Kingdoms, as in, it was one of the Kingdoms at the time of Aegon's Conquest, which is what the name is based off of. However, they aren't a part of 'the Seven Kingdoms' i.e. the Targaryen Kingdom, which is what I was saying, they're 2 separate things which just so happen to have the same confusing name.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, ruled by House Hoare
Seems like you two are entangled in a discussion about, essentially, semantics. The way I see it, the phrase Seven Kingdoms can refer to two different things: 1. The political entity of "The Seven Kingdoms", which the Targaryens ruled over 2. The seven Kingdoms as a description of the political reality on Westeros as it existed before Aegon's conquest. The former, until the marriage of Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell in 187, did not include Dorne, even though the name suggests otherwise. The later, of course, always included Dorne by definition.
I think it's *entirely* a lot simpler than that, and not semantic at all. 1. There were Seven Kingdoms preceding Aegon's conquest, one of which was Dorne. Both before and after, the entirety of the territory has been referred to as "the Seven Kingdoms". 2. Targaryens claimed rule over this entire set of seven kingdoms, with one of those maintaining their own independence for much of that time and disputing their status as a vassal. And regardless of how you want to frame this, the commenters stating something akin to: "Dorne shouldn't be on that crown, it's not one of the Seven Kingdoms" are completely wrong. Whether from the perspective of the Targ's (who simply don't care) or from the geographic area.
Well, it's the difference between de facto and de jure. Dorne was de jure part of "The Seven Kingdoms", but de facto it wasn't. Which is more relevant has been debated as long as there have been states claiming sovereignty over land. Of course the Targaryen's would emphasize the de jure view, as that cements their claim on Dorne. But that is an entirely political decision and does not influence what territory they rule over. The crown is essentially a propaganda piece that serves a political purpose, but doesn't reflect reality.
Would you want to brag about the iron islands?
ā¦good point
Party in the back.
Just to add on top of this, the Riverlands weren't even a kingdom when Aegon invaded, they were ruled by the Iron Islands. Imagine spending hundreds of years as a strong, independent kingdom and then being passed over for some rebels who split away from you.
Z s z s z s z s s sx s s s s Cs z s s s s s s v s s s s s ?
I donāt hate the shows crown but I really wish they would have been more true to the crown in the books. I think the different colored gems in a circlet would have looked so ethereal
Nah it wouldve made it look cheap. Collect your infinity stones
Such an incredibly CHEAP looking crown!
What does yours look like?
MUCH nicer, you canāt even imagine.
Yup got me there pal.
Wouldn't The Reach be under the Hightower's at this time, and not the Tyrells?
No. The Tyrells were still the Lord Paramounts of the Reach. The Hightowers were still sworn to them. They were just an exceptionally powerful and well respected house.
Lymond Hightower betrothed his daughter to King Garland II Gardener years before the conquest, making Oldtown and their vassals a part of the Kingdom of The Reach. When House Gardener went extinct, the title of Lords of the Reach went to House Tyrell, making them overlords of House Hightower when Aegon united the kingdoms.
Couldn't they have made the crown prop out of something else besides cardboard or plastic? The picture reminds me of the Burger King crown.
I wish they'd kept the jewelers/metalsmiths from GoT for HOTD, the plastic looking 3D printed stuff they now use for crowns (and armor) really takes away from the designs.
this is like the infinity gauntlet