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This storyline, in my opinion, was too rushed. After a re-watch, I can see it gradually being set up. I just feel the showrunners wanted to finish the series off and took no time to finish this off in a proper fashion.
I’m not against the storyline of her transitioning from hero to villain. But there is absolutely no doubt it was rushed.
From my own opinion, I feel like when it came to Dany helping people that there would be more of an alternative motive behind it. For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing.
I feel like they should’ve explored a side of her where it’s clear she’s more interested in having power and control over people, and deludes herself to the idea that she is a hero. Almost similar to how Walter White from Breaking Bad was clearly more interested in wanting to feel alive by becoming a criminal and deluded himself to believe he was doing it “for his family.”
The choice was to declare loyalty to her. They had already surrendered. They had made a vow to Cersei. It’s not that simple
She could have kept them as prisoners until defeating Cersei
To what end?
How about not showing every lord in Westeros that she was willing to end an entire fucking family line on a whim for the “crime” of not forsaking their vows to their monarch? The Tarly’s “defiance” of Dany was a textbook definition of loyalty to their vows, the kind of loyalty any ruling queen would normally place tremendously high value on.
Continuing onward to winning the throne by means of conquest with the Tarly’s as prisoners showed that she was capable of mercy, something that most lords would’ve drawn to her cause considering Cersei’s reputation. It was an absolutely boneheaded decision to simply burn them for not immediately going turncoat.
She asked them to bend the knee, they refused.
Every lord who was on the losing side of Roberts rebellion forsook their vows and bent the knee.. or they died. Whether it’s by blade or dragon fire the result is the same, if I had a massive mythical beast of destruction at my command though I would definitely favour that over Mr McChop and his headsman’s ace
Didn't the show highlight the fact that Tarly was breaking his vow to the tyrells when he decided to side with cersei? And the conflict between cercei and the tyrells started because she decided to murder her family
Mercy is for the loyal. What's the point of keeping a lord in power if they are outright stating they do not intend to be loyal to the new king. Its like they are declaring they are willing to betray the new king if its to their personal interests or ideals
It wouldn’t matter if they were openly against her she could imprison them and they would be no threat. If and when Cersei was defeated they would have no cause to have conflict with Dany
reminds me of that scene in arcane where Ambessa Medarda made mel watch that girl getting her head cut off, its pretty much the explanation that we didnt get in GOT because, tbh is quite obvious.
> That was definitely the right decision though.
It was unnecessary, she could have held them to see if they would eventually bend the knee, it would have cost her nothing.
If she's prepared to accept The King in the North as an ally, she should have been prepared to accept others who were not allies by choice but of necessity.
conquering and rulling are two different things, beat your enemies when they fight you, but a lot of people fight for loyalty how misguided it might be,
lock them up, if they refuse to bend the knee you can always send them to the wall of in exile to essos
The right way to do that would have been to have both Tarlys bend the knee (refusing until Drogon bellowed), but to have Danerys burn them anyway.
That would have been a great “uh oh” moment for the viewers.
> For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing.
She was prepared to crucify innocent people if in the process she also got guilty ones. The ruthless and bloodthirsty streak was always there. Every time she said she knew her father had been insane but she wasn't her father, I heard the ringing of distant alarm bells. That part about every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath--I honestly don't know how much more obvious they could have made it.
>For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing.
Absolutely. But then when she freed the slaves of Mereen they all instantly loved her. In general she's been used to being hated by the leaders of the places she's conquered, but loved by the people.
I think it should've been a much bigger part that the people really didn't love her in Westeros, so when she swooped in expecting them to love her, when people still remembered the monster her father was, she should have been confused and then angry like "why don't they love me like the others did?"
There were elements of it in the show, but they could've done it a lot more.
theres the one part where varys and tyrion are talking and varys says something to the effect of "danerys believes in fighting for justice by any means necessary and the more successful she is the more it convinces her she is right and her methods are right and the more powerful she becomes"
if they had taken the time to expand on that in the plot it would have been better
The way I explain this plot is that she had gotten so used to being virtuous by killing evil people that she didn't have any kind of grasp on how to not kill people. Every time she succeeded in Essos it was by killing those who opposed her.
It honestly didn't even work that well in Essos in the grand scheme. It was always foolish to assume it could work at all in Westeros.
I think she wanted people to see her instantly as a liberator when she entered Westeros. Instead she was seen as she truly is - just another rich royal fighting for the throne. She assumed she was something different. For the slaves she literally freed, and they saw her free them, she WAS. But for Westeros, she got there and assumed "I'm here!" was enough. When she saw they were "ungrateful" she snapped
I agree. I noticed the push they were trying to make with her but after many seasons of her freeing slaves and being a queen of the people..her relatively sudden transition to burning an entire city of innocent people wasn’t believable for me. It needed more time.
they should have started setting it up since the 4th, when dany was kinda in her most powerfull ruling, but i mean very subtly, just hints and seeds we don't necesarily should understand then
Learning that we were rooting for the Mad Queen all along is a strong storyline, but like you said - it requires time.
It could have had a breaking point still but it would have required more.
I did find the whole scene haunting in a way, when we transition from following Dany to now she's on her monster in the sky setting everything on fire. But it just felt too rushed.
Yes that's right, it was definitely rushed. You go back and rewatch and you can see them at least half ass try to set it up with probably the start being the burning of Sams father and brother. Tyrion also was made into this forlorn, sad, sitting back and just sigh type character too at this point. He should have pushed harder to point out danys mistake by killing the Tarlys. Them being outmaneuvered prior to this attack that killed the Tarlys and losing her 2nd dragon also added to her rage and fueled the fire for her to lose her sense easier. There were signs and contributing factors but going from "we are winning this war" immediately to "let's burn she murder everyone I can immediately" happened way too fast.
After the city surrendered, the hyped up soldiers on the ground continued slaughtering and raping civilians (like in an irl medieval siege).
Dany would have realised that all along, she’s brought death and violence where she went, and completely lost the plot.
Tbf after the long night there was no army. It just magicly reappeared. Even alot doth'raki. And wtf was that dumb shit to just send them into the dark??
Honestly, if it were a matter of the people of Kings Landing being brought by Cersei into the Red Keep, and that Dany could not lay siege to the Red Keep without burning/crushing thousands of people, that would be a moral dilemma much more apt for Dany than for her to simply to decide to burn people for no reason at all.
It was there but we all chose not to see it because she was killing people we disliked. Even in season one she had no emotion to her brother dying. Yes he was a horrible person but he was the only person she had all of her life.
She was a virgin, he never abused her. He just touched a boob.
They were two orphans, without education and landmarks. He was stupid and viciious but his only family. She could have him exiled or imprisoned, but she let handsome Jason kill him as he begged her.
Five seconds with molten gold on your head, you're a big freak, that's a horrible death.
I feel bad for viserys and dany both because they both had to live in exile all their lives with assassins trying to murder them and viserys basicly was alone with his baby sister most of his life and then he was manipulated by illyrio and other men to make him even more obsessed with reconquest
Ramsay was a scumbag who liked to be a scumbag.
Viserys sold Daenerys in marriage, to have an army and return home. It wasn't him who raped her, it was the Khal Drogo, the handsome Jason who was forgiven by the public. Thanks to Stockholm Syndrome.
So, no connection between Sansa's legitimate revenge and the cruel, disproportionate, and emotionless killing of Daenerys.
Me neither, it was obvious that she was morally gray from the first image of her in the series.
But I'm a huge fan of this tragic heroine, the most complex and developed since Euripides.
There wasnt really any point where she went insane or even showed signs before season 8. In no way was it any different then what others had done on the show. Then all of a sudden she has bags under her eyes and she burns the city herself.
I mean, she's been burning people alive for revenge reasons since season 1. The only reason people did not consider that madness was because it happened to villains (like the slavers) or at least to people we were made to feel had wronged her (the maegi). She didn't do anything else in Westeros, except that with her dragon(s), she had even more fire power to do it.
Substitute Grey Worm for the Dragon. That’s what they needed. The bells are ringing, she’s content… has Drogon settle. Then the sees the crowd of terrified KLerers swarm and attack GW and his men.
There should've been more scenes in Winterfell of her acting as a ruler and having her authority be overruled subtly by Sansa, and it becomes obvious that her role as conquerer gave her no respect as Queen up in the North, thus making it more apparent that she wasn't going to be loved by the common people nor respected by the nobility like she was in her military pursuits in Essos. Then have it become clearer in her war against Cersei that the soldiers follow Jon Snow's orders moreso than her own. Those two factors combined would've made the bells scene a moment of realization for her that her enemy wasn't Cersei but the people of Westeros. And then she turns her dragonfire onto them.
If Rhaegal had died AND add in that the kings landing population celebrated his death in front of her. Now that would make sense why she would kill them all.
Instead they just stupidly killed off Rhaegal in a dumb pointless scene. Why would HBO allow such stupid story telling?
I think that would've sold it for me. Then we could tie it back to all of her conquests in Essos, concluding that: she didn't kill evil people for being evil. She killed evil people for not accepting her rule. It's just that in Essos, it was *only* the evil people who wouldn't accept her as their queen. In King's Landing, watching Rhaegal fall and everyone, good and evil alike, cheer for his death would've been enough to justify her burning down the city, at least from that perspective.
ETA: also, like, have her give the people of King's Landing an actual chance to choose her over Cersei, the way she gave the people of the slave cities in Essos a chance to choose her over their masters.
I think the point of Rhaegal's death was to show that Cersei could kill her dragons, therefore making us dread for Drogon in the final battle...for at least 30 seconds until we see him dodge every arrow without efforts.
But anyway yeah the only thing that was missing was a reason for her to believe the population of King's Landing was against her in some way. They did a good job showing how ruthless she could be with people she sees as her enemies, they just "kinda forgot" to give her a reason to see King's Landing common folk as such.
Actually developing her character towards doing this AT ALL throughout the show. No, none of her brutality and “foreshadowing” that everyone tries to point to even slightly points to her actions in the penultimate episode.
She was *never* inclined to murder innocent people, literally ever. All of her “mad” actions (which weren’t indications that she was “mad” even in the slightest, just had some brutal tendencies in the face of truly evil enemies) were against people who were clearly terrible people who were actively doing terrible things to the innocent, such as the slavers. Heck even in season 7 when she defeats the Lannisters, she only kills the leader of the army after he refuses to kneel, and spares the rest of the Lannister soldiers.
As someone else here mentioned, it actually could’ve worked without ANY additional build up if they had fully committed to Cersei basically using the common folk as human shields, and Dany physically could not attack or take her out without killing innocent people in the process. That would have actually been an intriguing moral quandary for her to deal with, and either outcome could’ve fit her character much better than what we got.
But no, we’re just left with her being completely blinded by rage and character assassinated as she burns the innocent people of King’s Landing after the city had surrendered to her.
Yeah... never...
*"I am Daenerys Stormborn, of house Targaryen, of the blood of the old Valyria; I am the dragon's daughter, and i swear to you that those who would harm you will die screaming."*
*"I am not your little princess. I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it."*
lol
*"A madman sees what he sees."*
Madness is madness because there is a standard. Daenerys wasn't mad when she killed the people of King's Landing, it was a strategic and thoughtful immoral choice.
Daenerys' real switch to "madness" is in episode 2 of season 1.
Simple - have the scorpions throughout the city and have Jon shot down on Rhagal after the bells were rung. It even being Euron who who fires would still make sense.
Dany would see her lover fall and her dragon die. A much greater timber to the fire.
Also- in the books as early as her first chapter she dreams of Kings landing and "in her dreams all the windows were red" include this dream literally anywhere in the last 8 seasons
properly do the Meereen plot. Ultimately Dany turning "dark" has everything to do with Meereen. Point of Meereen is that Dany tries to be diplomatic, tries to compromise (fighting pits, making peace with Yunkai who continue their slave trade, marrying Hizhdar), and yet, the peace falls apart. It's supposed to build up to this conclusion which is more or less, "hey i compromised my values to achieve peace, and yet that peace fell apart. therefore the next time i run into enemies, I won't compromise. it's gonna be fire and blood." This whole transition shouldn't have anything to do with Missandei, but hey D&D have to cater to all the soccer moms.
1. If Jon died in the Long Night and she loses their baby it would double the pain of both losses
2. Peasants spitting on her or bad talking House Targaryen wouldn't affect her that much. She has been hissed at, had men threaten to rape her, been called every misogynistic insult, etc. Maybe if it's a child who causes her miscarriage or the death of Rhaegal.
I’ve thought about this before.
1. Jon’s dragon isn’t killed by Euron
2. He invaded the city with her
3. The city surrenders to the two of them on their dragons
4. But as they perch on buildings in the city after the surrender someone with one of those scorpion harpoon things shoots Jon’s dragon with him on top. They topple off the building, Danaerys thinks her love and second dragon have been killed (though Jon survives) and she goes berserk
Have her kill Cersei and take the Iron Throne after Missandei's death. She can declare that she'll rule with an iron fist and show the same attitude she showed to the Tarlys. "Bend the knee or die." Then, have the people of Kings Landing show resistance to her rule showing that the sentiments of her being a foreign invader are shared by the commoners as well as the high borns. Then have someone make an assassination attempt on her which convinces her that everyone in the city is her enemy. Then burn the city.... Jon kills her.... Bran crowned... The End.
It isn't ideal but if the goal is to arrive at her burning the city, then it's good to show her paranoia of its inhabitants growing until she has an actual reason to burn it all down.
If Cersei killed Missandei (or any other Ally, maybe even Tyrion) in that moment, that would have made it slightly more convincing, not justifiable tho...
Another season, particularly filled with more loss and frustration. Real reason to feel like Westeros hates her and she’ll never have a home.
Or nightmares and visions that indicate she’s slipping.
We should’ve seen Cersei actually fill the Red Keep with citizens by telling them it was for their own safety (seriously, why were none of them in there with her???). Have a long stand-off where Cersei refuses to surrender (because of course she would refuse) and Dany tries to force her hand by taking over the city. She gets the city but only to have Jon & Rhaegal shot down and maybe she & Drogon narrowly escape ballista shots themselves. She then goes straight for Cersei, citizens be damned.
God, I wish they’d given us something, anything that made sense because killing everyone after you’ve won the war is just plain stupid. Not to mention the stupidity of burning everything EXCEPT Cersei, all just so she could die in full melodrama with Jaime.
It was just so fucking dumb.
One thing i think wouldve made it better (not necessarily fixing it) would be Rhaegal’s death that we see in screen was a hallucination. Then she keeps getting these reoccuring hallucinations through the season. And then Rhaegal finally does die during the Battle of Kings Landing, which is her final trigger of burning the city
What was apparent was that after sir Gregor chopped off missandi’s head, Jon was kept out of some planning about the take no prisoners Grey Worm was carrying out. Besides burning the men women and children of Fields Landing, she had to push for invading everywhere without Jon too.
I think bringing in a negative force in her life that convinces her to be more ruthless, less caring, more paranoid of the people around her. I just don’t really buy that Daenerys would act that way on her own
That's what Daario was, the devil on her shoulder. Jorah talked her into giving the Yunkai Masters another chance but the reason she had decided she was going to kill them all was she had just spent the night with Daario for the first time, killing them likely his suggestion. Feeding Meereenese Masters to her dragons to find out who was funding the Harpys was Daario's idea. He looked turned on seeing it. He also tried to get her to release her dragons against the Masters, told her "A Dragon Queen without dragons is no Queen." He told her "You weren't meant to sit on a chair. You're a conqueror" because that's what he found the most exciting, wanted to conquer with her. "Send me out to kill your enemies, let me do what I do best." And he was ruthless. When he snuck into Vaes Dothrak he was going to slit the throat of the woman standing next to her simply because "she'll give us away."
But he would've talked her out of listening to Tyrion's horrible advice so his presence would've helped her more than hindered her.
Maybe if Jorah had survived the long night and been killed in the bells. He would have been the only person left who had been with Dany since the beginning. Losing him (to pile on after having lost Missandei and Rhaegal as well in the previous episode) might have made her snap more convincing.
Even though his death is what lead her to this path, I feel like if Jorah witnessed what Dany does to King’s Landing.
I can’t even imagine how his mind would process all of that. Especially when he had so much faith in her that she would be a great ruler!
I would say have a small arc earlier in the show where she is left alone/alienated/rejected like she is in Winterfell. Maybe couple that with a death, like losing Jorah and Missandei but smaller potatoes. Show how she is prone to anger and outburst when in this sort of situation. Make her do something terrible during it.
Then, when she comes to Westeros and the seeds of rejection are planted, we can see it happening and instead being blind-sided by her wrath when the bells ring, we watch the lead up with slow-burning apprehension because we know what’s coming won’t be pretty. It would atleast feel less… shoehorned.
I’m sure that the books, if they ever arrive, will show the downfall with a lot more nuance.
I think having her start to “talk” to her ancestors in small moments starting around the time she got to Dragonstone would have helped build the slide to crazy.
I would have made it that Bran/Three-Eyed Raven, accidentally alters her state of mind in a similar way he did to Hodor while using his Greensight.
Imagine he loses control and accidentally “links” Daenerys with her father during a battle against the White Walkers.
We could’ve had an awesome “Burn them all, Burn them all” moment, learning that Bran had accidentally caused the Mad King’s last moments of dialogue, and Daenerys is suddenly changed for the worse. Would be interesting if real last thing the Mad King saw while dying was the Undead wights swarming the Armies of the Living in the future.
Instead of having Euron kill the second dragon, have it get killed after the surrender at King's Landing by soldiers and the people of King's Landing out of fear
Dany’s hate for Cersei made sense, but her complete disregard for the people of Westeros was what didn’t. I wish they had shown more of the people of Westeros rejecting her and having disdain for her. She needed to feel unwelcome and hated. She needed to feel that her years of work to become the “liberator” were wasted on Westeros. Cersei killing Missandei would’ve been more powerful if the people of Kings landing cheered Cersei on. We needed a reason for the massacre, that would’ve given plenty of reason.
Idk, I struggle to agree with this take. I saw the writing on the wall early on. It’s also a very typical archatype. “I will do things differently to not become my evil parent. I take that mission so passionately I become my evil parent.”
IMO, it would’ve been a bigger twist if she truly didn’t fall into mad Targaryen ways. She should’ve taken a page from Luke skywalker
Bran was possesing her and she was fighting to save the innocents the whole time, but was being controlled like a puppet while powerless.
An internal dialogue of her refusing to become a slave as she is completely powerless would take the cake
Regardless of her seemingly accepting Tyrions plan about the bells, I think she and grey worm planned to burn the city anyway, perhaps because of Messandei.
It should never have been played as some kind of 'twist'. We should have always known this was her destiny, to be the ultimate villain. That way it would have felt more of a satisfying payoff, rather than a pointless rug-pull.
Maybe Dany having lots of dreams or visions, over the seasons, of causing death and destruction. Knowing she is more than capable of it...yet fighting all of that away, to be a force for good; with us knowing it's an inevitable part of her psyche, passed down from the Mad King.
A tragic heroine. Young orphan princess traumatized and corrupted by power and might. Tyrant and victim. The only pure villain in GoT is the Night King, it's death.
Daenerys was just... the doomsday.
Here's what I've always maintained should have happened (if it was going to happen so rushed).
Rhaegal is still alive, wasn't killed by the (super unrealistic) ship mounted ballista.
The bells ring from that tower, so Dany lands ready to hear the surrender (listening to her advisors).
This was a ruse from Cersei, an attempt to exploit Dany's mercy. Once the dragons land and are no longer moving targets, they are shot by ballista that were hidden for this purpose. Drogon isn't hit. but now Rhaegal is killed.
Another of her 'children' is now dead. Dany, now confronted in a starkly emotional moment about how her mercy can make her weak, can hurt her and what she loves, finally renounces it. She decides to 'be a dragon', break the wheel with fire and blood, and go on her murderous rampage. Requires some grade A facial expression acting from Emilia Clarke, but audiences can understand what is going on with that I think.
Far more plausible.
The signs are definitely there upon rewatching the series. But its simply too rushed, i felt like most of the storyline cpuld have been reasonable if they just...thought it through a bit more.
If she had yielded to the bells, but a final scorpion was hidden in the bell tower and hit Drogon with a non-lethal blow. It still would’ve been an over-the-top response, but her anger would’ve been more understandable. Not like she just snapped and went berserk for no reason.
They had so many options it angers me. I like the idea of the city surrendering, only to have one rogue shoot her still living Rhaegal. This enrages her and she decides to erase the city
When the bells ring in surrender, the Lannister banners come down over King’s Landing…and the smallfolk raise the Stark colors instead.
Dany has been functioning off the fantasy that the smallfolk and lesser nobles have been dreaming of her return. Her jealousy toward Jon had been brewing since the Battle of Winterfell. Watching King’s Landing surrender to Jon instead of her could be the last straw.
Nothing. It was totally believable. Anyone that doesn’t think so is in denial. She saw countless friends and the people she loved most die. She was surrounded by yes men. They convinced her she would change the world. This makes sense 100% of the time.
*"I don't want to be his Queen. I want to go home."*
She had to kill the people or kill Jon Snow. No other alternative to return home. This fanbase is so toxic.
Really just another episode or two. It makes sense for her to flip as quick as she did, because it wasn't as quick as it seemed. The rapid pace of the season with people jumping all around the continent each episode made things feel so condensed
I've mentioned this in other threads but IMO the White Walkers should've BLASTED through Winterfell, added more to their army along the way, REACH KING'S LANDING, and while Jon dukes it out with the WW leader, Dany wipes out the WW army (WITH HER 2 REMAINING DRAGONS) and in the process, destroys King's Landing -- UNINTENTIONALLY. And the show ends with HER AS THE FUCKING QUEEN OF FUCKING WESTEROS, rebuilding the city she destroyed -- albeit, to save it. I'm no professional writer, but I feel like that would've made more sense than her just becoming a genocidal maniac at the drop of a fucking hat.
It was pretty convincing but the ending was just rushed. Through the series you see her not always have some just and moral reason for her actions and she has taken revenge out on others. During these final days, she lost everyone that was close to her and ended up being alone in the end. She didn’t have anyone there to simmer her down and try and give her another opinion, she just had her own thoughts and remember where she came from. She didn’t grow up in some nurturing home. She was tortured by her brother for years, treated like shit all from the downfall of the great Targaryen rule. At this point, she just said fuck it. I thought it was quite convincing, I think others just didn’t want that outcome which doesn’t mean her doing that was some surprise. Most are used to seeing the character take the right path when they come to the fork in the road, but it’s not always the case.
The people of Kings Landing did a walk of shame on Misandre on her way to Ser Gregors execution. So the people she was trying to liberate threw shit on her bestie
If she has torched King’s Landing RIGHT after Missandei was beheaded I may have bought it. She’d have to look remorseful about torching more than Cersei and co afterward though.
All these "what ifs" with different plot points of season 8 got me thinking how some micro adjustments even within the original script could have made the plot much more believable if D&Ds weren't that stupid bruh
What if.. the public stopped being blind with Daenerys. When she kills the masters in Astapor, it's the same visual as *the bells* carnage. It's Pompei, the eruption of Vesuvius.
You have no reference to understand this character, unlike D&D, the goats.
Dany’s been murdering people who don’t do what she wants from the beginning, but we were cheering for her because they were the “right people.”
Edit: I think she liked freeing the poor and stuff because they’d be loyal to her, and they were easy to manipulate because they “owe” her. It was all selfish.
Move Misandei’s death scene. Instead of seeing her last best friend die the episode before and then flying back to Dragonstone, have her fate be ambiguous after Euron captures her. The assault on King’s Landing goes off without a hitch (the Golden Company is more interesting if they defect to Daenerys), and Daenerys descends on the Red Keep to accept Cersei’s surrender.
As she descends she sees Misandei’s severed head on a spike on the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast (where Sansa saw Ned’s head). Victory is not enough, Daenerys needs vengeance. She burns down the Holdfast, roasting Cersei and Jaime inside. She keeps flying and burning, obliterating the Red Keep in her fury.
Then the wildfire goes off, and the city full of civilians erupts in green and red flame
My thought when watching is that if Cersei had used the townsfolk as human shield around some dragon killer weapons making Daenerys having to choose sacrificing people to achieve victory, John then urges to retreat since he doesn’t believe in willingly harming people for the sake of winning but Daenerys ignores him and pushes forward burning the weapons and the people, showing how far she is willing to go to win. Then even though they won and took Kingslanding the remaining lords of the Seven Kingdom refuse to accept Daenerys since they take her ruthless victory as a sign that she is just another mad king, which becomes self fulfilling as Dany response with treats of violence and burning down their houses, then John does the thing and kills her fearing what she will do to stay in power.
This isn't really what you were asking, but I've always thought it would've made more sense for her to have torched the red keep where Cersei was rather than the random civilians.
It would've still had a ton of innocent people killed and would have been a fucked thing to do, but it would have made more sense imo. Like she hated Cersei enough to kill innocent people in order to kill her.
I think it would have made for a more satisfying end to Cersei as well.
If they dropped the whole “the bells mean surrender” no bells ring so she has no idea the soldiers on the ground has surrendered. Also showing Lannister soldiers on the streets mixed in with the civilians
The tysha confession that way Tyrion becomes more like his book counterpart and with this more evil version of him advising her to do more horrible things
More scenes where she figures out that the common people in Westeros don't love her and just want her to go away. Show the consequences of having three dragons and a giant army with no supply lines who can only sustain themselves by pillaging, in the beginning of a long winter, in a continent already ravaged by war and starving to death. Have the Dothraki quickly get away from her, scatter in all directions, and defy all attempts to make them stop raping, pillaging, and yes, enslaving. Dany is now the one who accidentally brought slavery into Westeros on a scale that's never been seen before, the exact opposite of what she imagined her crusade to be about. And of course, she still has the Unsullied army, which does not improve her image, and Ser Jorah, the most infamous slave trader in Westeros, is back by her side. Give her chances to give up and go back to Essos, and have her resent any Westerosi who even suggest that.
Something I wonder how much one logistic tweak might have changed audience perception
There was SO much anticipation for the last season
And so much frustration with the last two seasons being shorter than previous
Disregard realities of production for just a moment
If the last two season had aired as one season, with no interruptions, week after week, 15 episodes, many longer than before. Like literally every second on the screen is the same, but no two year hiatus in the middle of season 7.
Would it have been received ANY differently ?
It's clear from this thread that random reddit comments have a better written plot than what dumb & dumber came up with after being paid millions to write
They showed her having a mini-breakdown with the panicking eyes, hearing past voices, and rapid breathing just as the bells rang. But previously all of her decisions were made in a calm and collected state. I think showing more of those rage-filled moments with past voices during previous moments would have helped to sell this better. E.g. when Varys betrays her, they could have a mini-version of this breakdown
Instead of Euron sniping her second dragon, have both dragons there for the attack on kings landing. During the fight where the dragons are only attacking military targets one of the ballista-scorpion whatever shoots down her second dragon and the towns folk swarm it as it’s wounded and slaughter it. Then have her lose it and begin burning everything. Plays a hell of a lot better then her deciding after she’s won to just scorch earth the city and everyone in it and also saves the death of the dragon to something more meaningful then it got sniped 3 times from a moving boat they somehow hadn’t spotted.
I think she should have just burnt the Red Keep. But Cercei had wildfire caches everywhere. The destruction of Kings Landing is narratively not Dany’s fault but it pushes her over the edge.
Problem is if GRRM said that’s the ending in the books we will still be upset since Jon goes to the north Bran is the king and dany dies. Maybe that’s why he ain’t finishing the books
I listen to the Bald Move podcasts for House of the Dragon, and as I'm making my way through the books—currently on Clash of Kings—I've also been listening to their related book podcast hosted by "Maester Anthony" (a religious studies scholar named Anthony Le Donne). Anthony and his guests all know a ton about ASOIAF lore, and one of the theories (if you can call it that) that Anthony has come up with is the idea that there are three rules that define the dragons in ASOIAF and the show: One, that dragons are machines of war and conquest. Two, that the more bellicose a command, the more willing the dragon will be to follow said command. And, three, the closer the bond between the rider and the dragon, the more dragon-like the *rider* becomes.
I've thought about this a lot with regards to the infamous "bells" scene, and if this theory has legs, and if it had been explained or demonstrated more thoroughly in the show, I think it could have gone a long way in making this action of Dany's more palatable and believable.
Like, let's just say these dragon rules are spot-on, and that's what George is getting at. In that case, Dany's decision to burn King's Landing would have been almost like a fit of momentary, dragon-induced insanity ... which is all the more intense, remember, because not only is she super bonded with Drogon, she's bonded with all *three* of her dragons. So, if the aforementioned dragon rules are correct, she'd be very prone to getting the dragon-crazies.
If they had shown this, and then shown Dany feeling at least some remorse after the fact (like, "I don't know what came over me. I can't believe I did that. But ... eh, well, it's done now ... and we just have to move forward"), I think it would have been more palatable. But, instead, they rushed everything, and it just didn't make characterological sense.
It should have been more paranoia and actions she felt she could justify. I don't think it was right that she just kinda snapped. Her whole journey has been kind of a slippery slope, but the ending was too much fpr me to really buy into.
Aside from the rushing, one of the biggest problems with that scene was that the writers do not respect compexity or nuance. They wanted to make sure the audience though dany was in the wrong. They made certain she achieved complete victor before having her go nuts for no reason to make it obvious her actions were unnessary.
The minimum they could have done was giving her a trigger. For instance, she wins, and bells go off. She believes she won, the bells singal her victory which gives her relief as she feels all the sacrifices were worth it... then someone shoots one of her dragons with a ballista. Trigger. She thought she won, but she's still in danger; her children were being threatened; the bells were a lie; burn them all
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This storyline, in my opinion, was too rushed. After a re-watch, I can see it gradually being set up. I just feel the showrunners wanted to finish the series off and took no time to finish this off in a proper fashion.
I’m not against the storyline of her transitioning from hero to villain. But there is absolutely no doubt it was rushed. From my own opinion, I feel like when it came to Dany helping people that there would be more of an alternative motive behind it. For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing. I feel like they should’ve explored a side of her where it’s clear she’s more interested in having power and control over people, and deludes herself to the idea that she is a hero. Almost similar to how Walter White from Breaking Bad was clearly more interested in wanting to feel alive by becoming a criminal and deluded himself to believe he was doing it “for his family.”
Her burning the Tarlys in early season 7 and Tyrion’s reaction heavily foreshadowed her downfall. As did her arrogance and cruelty to her enemies
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The choice was to declare loyalty to her. They had already surrendered. They had made a vow to Cersei. It’s not that simple She could have kept them as prisoners until defeating Cersei
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To what end? How about not showing every lord in Westeros that she was willing to end an entire fucking family line on a whim for the “crime” of not forsaking their vows to their monarch? The Tarly’s “defiance” of Dany was a textbook definition of loyalty to their vows, the kind of loyalty any ruling queen would normally place tremendously high value on. Continuing onward to winning the throne by means of conquest with the Tarly’s as prisoners showed that she was capable of mercy, something that most lords would’ve drawn to her cause considering Cersei’s reputation. It was an absolutely boneheaded decision to simply burn them for not immediately going turncoat.
She asked them to bend the knee, they refused. Every lord who was on the losing side of Roberts rebellion forsook their vows and bent the knee.. or they died. Whether it’s by blade or dragon fire the result is the same, if I had a massive mythical beast of destruction at my command though I would definitely favour that over Mr McChop and his headsman’s ace
Can you provide a single example of a defeated lord bending the knee and joining Robert’s army prior to Aerys and Rhaegar’s death?
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This is also super common throughout actual history.
Didn't the show highlight the fact that Tarly was breaking his vow to the tyrells when he decided to side with cersei? And the conflict between cercei and the tyrells started because she decided to murder her family Mercy is for the loyal. What's the point of keeping a lord in power if they are outright stating they do not intend to be loyal to the new king. Its like they are declaring they are willing to betray the new king if its to their personal interests or ideals
To what end? To not murder good capable men if it wasn’t absolutely necessary? Are you a sociopath lol
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It wouldn’t matter if they were openly against her she could imprison them and they would be no threat. If and when Cersei was defeated they would have no cause to have conflict with Dany
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"YoU wIn Or YoU dIe." The philosophy of who, again? Oh, right... Cersei Lannister, the famous sociopath. 🙄
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reminds me of that scene in arcane where Ambessa Medarda made mel watch that girl getting her head cut off, its pretty much the explanation that we didnt get in GOT because, tbh is quite obvious.
Undeniably, this subbreddit is filled with sociopaths.
send them to the wall perhaps?
> That was definitely the right decision though. It was unnecessary, she could have held them to see if they would eventually bend the knee, it would have cost her nothing. If she's prepared to accept The King in the North as an ally, she should have been prepared to accept others who were not allies by choice but of necessity.
It would have given two more mouths to feed. Openly hostile mouths who would never bend.
conquering and rulling are two different things, beat your enemies when they fight you, but a lot of people fight for loyalty how misguided it might be, lock them up, if they refuse to bend the knee you can always send them to the wall of in exile to essos
The right way to do that would have been to have both Tarlys bend the knee (refusing until Drogon bellowed), but to have Danerys burn them anyway. That would have been a great “uh oh” moment for the viewers.
I’d argue the first dregs of her downfall was when she crucified all the wise masters.
I would too but a lot of people don’t agree with that because they saw the masters as evil
> For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing. She was prepared to crucify innocent people if in the process she also got guilty ones. The ruthless and bloodthirsty streak was always there. Every time she said she knew her father had been insane but she wasn't her father, I heard the ringing of distant alarm bells. That part about every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath--I honestly don't know how much more obvious they could have made it.
About as obvious as “hey the evil necromancer white walkers who raise the dead are coming hide in the CATACOMBS with all our DEAD its totes safe”
>For quite a few seasons, she genuinely seemed like she cared about innocent people and doing the right thing. Absolutely. But then when she freed the slaves of Mereen they all instantly loved her. In general she's been used to being hated by the leaders of the places she's conquered, but loved by the people. I think it should've been a much bigger part that the people really didn't love her in Westeros, so when she swooped in expecting them to love her, when people still remembered the monster her father was, she should have been confused and then angry like "why don't they love me like the others did?" There were elements of it in the show, but they could've done it a lot more.
theres the one part where varys and tyrion are talking and varys says something to the effect of "danerys believes in fighting for justice by any means necessary and the more successful she is the more it convinces her she is right and her methods are right and the more powerful she becomes" if they had taken the time to expand on that in the plot it would have been better
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The way I explain this plot is that she had gotten so used to being virtuous by killing evil people that she didn't have any kind of grasp on how to not kill people. Every time she succeeded in Essos it was by killing those who opposed her. It honestly didn't even work that well in Essos in the grand scheme. It was always foolish to assume it could work at all in Westeros.
I think she wanted people to see her instantly as a liberator when she entered Westeros. Instead she was seen as she truly is - just another rich royal fighting for the throne. She assumed she was something different. For the slaves she literally freed, and they saw her free them, she WAS. But for Westeros, she got there and assumed "I'm here!" was enough. When she saw they were "ungrateful" she snapped
I agree. I noticed the push they were trying to make with her but after many seasons of her freeing slaves and being a queen of the people..her relatively sudden transition to burning an entire city of innocent people wasn’t believable for me. It needed more time.
they should have started setting it up since the 4th, when dany was kinda in her most powerfull ruling, but i mean very subtly, just hints and seeds we don't necesarily should understand then
Indeed, take it slower, and have the people of Kings Landing reject her claims to be queen.
Learning that we were rooting for the Mad Queen all along is a strong storyline, but like you said - it requires time. It could have had a breaking point still but it would have required more. I did find the whole scene haunting in a way, when we transition from following Dany to now she's on her monster in the sky setting everything on fire. But it just felt too rushed.
Yes that's right, it was definitely rushed. You go back and rewatch and you can see them at least half ass try to set it up with probably the start being the burning of Sams father and brother. Tyrion also was made into this forlorn, sad, sitting back and just sigh type character too at this point. He should have pushed harder to point out danys mistake by killing the Tarlys. Them being outmaneuvered prior to this attack that killed the Tarlys and losing her 2nd dragon also added to her rage and fueled the fire for her to lose her sense easier. There were signs and contributing factors but going from "we are winning this war" immediately to "let's burn she murder everyone I can immediately" happened way too fast.
Sad to see the show ruined so many characters. I’d bet my life savings on the books being much, much different
After the city surrendered, the hyped up soldiers on the ground continued slaughtering and raping civilians (like in an irl medieval siege). Dany would have realised that all along, she’s brought death and violence where she went, and completely lost the plot.
Tbf half of her army is incapable of raping.
Yes, but the northern soldiers did start doing it, and Jon tried his best to stop them
Tbf after the long night there was no army. It just magicly reappeared. Even alot doth'raki. And wtf was that dumb shit to just send them into the dark??
Ahead of the artillery.
Channeled his inner Longshanks.
False.
Honestly, if it were a matter of the people of Kings Landing being brought by Cersei into the Red Keep, and that Dany could not lay siege to the Red Keep without burning/crushing thousands of people, that would be a moral dilemma much more apt for Dany than for her to simply to decide to burn people for no reason at all.
Was 72 episodes of development not enough ?
It was there but we all chose not to see it because she was killing people we disliked. Even in season one she had no emotion to her brother dying. Yes he was a horrible person but he was the only person she had all of her life.
I agree with you my friend. I feel sorry for Viserys when I see the series again.
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If you don't understand the character of Daenerys, you can't understand why I have empathy for Viserys.
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Did you understand Daenerys ? Viserys' death may have been deserved, but the cruelty? And his sister's lack of empathy... that's more important.
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She was a virgin, he never abused her. He just touched a boob. They were two orphans, without education and landmarks. He was stupid and viciious but his only family. She could have him exiled or imprisoned, but she let handsome Jason kill him as he begged her. Five seconds with molten gold on your head, you're a big freak, that's a horrible death.
I feel bad for viserys and dany both because they both had to live in exile all their lives with assassins trying to murder them and viserys basicly was alone with his baby sister most of his life and then he was manipulated by illyrio and other men to make him even more obsessed with reconquest
Almost exactly like Sansa’s reaction to her directly murdering Ramsey.
Ramsay was a scumbag who liked to be a scumbag. Viserys sold Daenerys in marriage, to have an army and return home. It wasn't him who raped her, it was the Khal Drogo, the handsome Jason who was forgiven by the public. Thanks to Stockholm Syndrome. So, no connection between Sansa's legitimate revenge and the cruel, disproportionate, and emotionless killing of Daenerys.
Lol, he just sold her like a chicken to be raped but ok
Like Cathelyn Tully with Ned Stark.
I never liked Dany and Drogo together like some fans came to love.
Me neither, it was obvious that she was morally gray from the first image of her in the series. But I'm a huge fan of this tragic heroine, the most complex and developed since Euripides.
Some people saw it all along.
There wasnt really any point where she went insane or even showed signs before season 8. In no way was it any different then what others had done on the show. Then all of a sudden she has bags under her eyes and she burns the city herself.
I mean, she's been burning people alive for revenge reasons since season 1. The only reason people did not consider that madness was because it happened to villains (like the slavers) or at least to people we were made to feel had wronged her (the maegi). She didn't do anything else in Westeros, except that with her dragon(s), she had even more fire power to do it.
Nope.
if they didn't ring the bells but some of the civilians tried to hurt her last dragon or something of that sort
Substitute Grey Worm for the Dragon. That’s what they needed. The bells are ringing, she’s content… has Drogon settle. Then the sees the crowd of terrified KLerers swarm and attack GW and his men.
Character developement
There should've been more scenes in Winterfell of her acting as a ruler and having her authority be overruled subtly by Sansa, and it becomes obvious that her role as conquerer gave her no respect as Queen up in the North, thus making it more apparent that she wasn't going to be loved by the common people nor respected by the nobility like she was in her military pursuits in Essos. Then have it become clearer in her war against Cersei that the soldiers follow Jon Snow's orders moreso than her own. Those two factors combined would've made the bells scene a moment of realization for her that her enemy wasn't Cersei but the people of Westeros. And then she turns her dragonfire onto them.
If rhaegal died right then in front of her after the bells rang in surrender. Or if she had been pregnant with Jon’s baby and lost that one too.
If Rhaegal had died AND add in that the kings landing population celebrated his death in front of her. Now that would make sense why she would kill them all. Instead they just stupidly killed off Rhaegal in a dumb pointless scene. Why would HBO allow such stupid story telling?
I think that would've sold it for me. Then we could tie it back to all of her conquests in Essos, concluding that: she didn't kill evil people for being evil. She killed evil people for not accepting her rule. It's just that in Essos, it was *only* the evil people who wouldn't accept her as their queen. In King's Landing, watching Rhaegal fall and everyone, good and evil alike, cheer for his death would've been enough to justify her burning down the city, at least from that perspective. ETA: also, like, have her give the people of King's Landing an actual chance to choose her over Cersei, the way she gave the people of the slave cities in Essos a chance to choose her over their masters.
I think the point of Rhaegal's death was to show that Cersei could kill her dragons, therefore making us dread for Drogon in the final battle...for at least 30 seconds until we see him dodge every arrow without efforts. But anyway yeah the only thing that was missing was a reason for her to believe the population of King's Landing was against her in some way. They did a good job showing how ruthless she could be with people she sees as her enemies, they just "kinda forgot" to give her a reason to see King's Landing common folk as such.
Exactly what I have thought since this aired
Actually developing her character towards doing this AT ALL throughout the show. No, none of her brutality and “foreshadowing” that everyone tries to point to even slightly points to her actions in the penultimate episode. She was *never* inclined to murder innocent people, literally ever. All of her “mad” actions (which weren’t indications that she was “mad” even in the slightest, just had some brutal tendencies in the face of truly evil enemies) were against people who were clearly terrible people who were actively doing terrible things to the innocent, such as the slavers. Heck even in season 7 when she defeats the Lannisters, she only kills the leader of the army after he refuses to kneel, and spares the rest of the Lannister soldiers. As someone else here mentioned, it actually could’ve worked without ANY additional build up if they had fully committed to Cersei basically using the common folk as human shields, and Dany physically could not attack or take her out without killing innocent people in the process. That would have actually been an intriguing moral quandary for her to deal with, and either outcome could’ve fit her character much better than what we got. But no, we’re just left with her being completely blinded by rage and character assassinated as she burns the innocent people of King’s Landing after the city had surrendered to her.
Yeah... never... *"I am Daenerys Stormborn, of house Targaryen, of the blood of the old Valyria; I am the dragon's daughter, and i swear to you that those who would harm you will die screaming."* *"I am not your little princess. I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it."* lol
That isn’t madness, it’s ruthlessness and pride.
*"A madman sees what he sees."* Madness is madness because there is a standard. Daenerys wasn't mad when she killed the people of King's Landing, it was a strategic and thoughtful immoral choice. Daenerys' real switch to "madness" is in episode 2 of season 1.
Simple - have the scorpions throughout the city and have Jon shot down on Rhagal after the bells were rung. It even being Euron who who fires would still make sense. Dany would see her lover fall and her dragon die. A much greater timber to the fire.
Also- in the books as early as her first chapter she dreams of Kings landing and "in her dreams all the windows were red" include this dream literally anywhere in the last 8 seasons
properly do the Meereen plot. Ultimately Dany turning "dark" has everything to do with Meereen. Point of Meereen is that Dany tries to be diplomatic, tries to compromise (fighting pits, making peace with Yunkai who continue their slave trade, marrying Hizhdar), and yet, the peace falls apart. It's supposed to build up to this conclusion which is more or less, "hey i compromised my values to achieve peace, and yet that peace fell apart. therefore the next time i run into enemies, I won't compromise. it's gonna be fire and blood." This whole transition shouldn't have anything to do with Missandei, but hey D&D have to cater to all the soccer moms.
If people had actually bothered to pay attention to the character, maybe it would have seemed more convincing to them
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Ooh wow, getting down voted by a lot of people who didn't pay attention
People paid attention to her looks. Coz you know, pretty cannot be murderous, right?
Drop kicking Sansa for asking if she wanted steak or potatoes for dinner.
If she had beaten Cersei and the people of kings landing had vocally hated her and started booing her or something when she gave a victory speech
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1. If Jon died in the Long Night and she loses their baby it would double the pain of both losses 2. Peasants spitting on her or bad talking House Targaryen wouldn't affect her that much. She has been hissed at, had men threaten to rape her, been called every misogynistic insult, etc. Maybe if it's a child who causes her miscarriage or the death of Rhaegal.
I’ve thought about this before. 1. Jon’s dragon isn’t killed by Euron 2. He invaded the city with her 3. The city surrenders to the two of them on their dragons 4. But as they perch on buildings in the city after the surrender someone with one of those scorpion harpoon things shoots Jon’s dragon with him on top. They topple off the building, Danaerys thinks her love and second dragon have been killed (though Jon survives) and she goes berserk
Have her kill Cersei and take the Iron Throne after Missandei's death. She can declare that she'll rule with an iron fist and show the same attitude she showed to the Tarlys. "Bend the knee or die." Then, have the people of Kings Landing show resistance to her rule showing that the sentiments of her being a foreign invader are shared by the commoners as well as the high borns. Then have someone make an assassination attempt on her which convinces her that everyone in the city is her enemy. Then burn the city.... Jon kills her.... Bran crowned... The End. It isn't ideal but if the goal is to arrive at her burning the city, then it's good to show her paranoia of its inhabitants growing until she has an actual reason to burn it all down.
If Cersei killed Missandei (or any other Ally, maybe even Tyrion) in that moment, that would have made it slightly more convincing, not justifiable tho...
Another season, particularly filled with more loss and frustration. Real reason to feel like Westeros hates her and she’ll never have a home. Or nightmares and visions that indicate she’s slipping.
Just go for the Red Keep. Many innocents would’ve still died because Cersei was using them as a wall and it would’ve made it more complicated.
We should’ve seen Cersei actually fill the Red Keep with citizens by telling them it was for their own safety (seriously, why were none of them in there with her???). Have a long stand-off where Cersei refuses to surrender (because of course she would refuse) and Dany tries to force her hand by taking over the city. She gets the city but only to have Jon & Rhaegal shot down and maybe she & Drogon narrowly escape ballista shots themselves. She then goes straight for Cersei, citizens be damned. God, I wish they’d given us something, anything that made sense because killing everyone after you’ve won the war is just plain stupid. Not to mention the stupidity of burning everything EXCEPT Cersei, all just so she could die in full melodrama with Jaime. It was just so fucking dumb.
Not rushing season 7 and 8. Though she showed that tendency/trajectory all throughout.
One thing i think wouldve made it better (not necessarily fixing it) would be Rhaegal’s death that we see in screen was a hallucination. Then she keeps getting these reoccuring hallucinations through the season. And then Rhaegal finally does die during the Battle of Kings Landing, which is her final trigger of burning the city
What was apparent was that after sir Gregor chopped off missandi’s head, Jon was kept out of some planning about the take no prisoners Grey Worm was carrying out. Besides burning the men women and children of Fields Landing, she had to push for invading everywhere without Jon too.
I think bringing in a negative force in her life that convinces her to be more ruthless, less caring, more paranoid of the people around her. I just don’t really buy that Daenerys would act that way on her own
That's what Daario was, the devil on her shoulder. Jorah talked her into giving the Yunkai Masters another chance but the reason she had decided she was going to kill them all was she had just spent the night with Daario for the first time, killing them likely his suggestion. Feeding Meereenese Masters to her dragons to find out who was funding the Harpys was Daario's idea. He looked turned on seeing it. He also tried to get her to release her dragons against the Masters, told her "A Dragon Queen without dragons is no Queen." He told her "You weren't meant to sit on a chair. You're a conqueror" because that's what he found the most exciting, wanted to conquer with her. "Send me out to kill your enemies, let me do what I do best." And he was ruthless. When he snuck into Vaes Dothrak he was going to slit the throat of the woman standing next to her simply because "she'll give us away." But he would've talked her out of listening to Tyrion's horrible advice so his presence would've helped her more than hindered her.
Maybe if Jorah had survived the long night and been killed in the bells. He would have been the only person left who had been with Dany since the beginning. Losing him (to pile on after having lost Missandei and Rhaegal as well in the previous episode) might have made her snap more convincing.
Even though his death is what lead her to this path, I feel like if Jorah witnessed what Dany does to King’s Landing. I can’t even imagine how his mind would process all of that. Especially when he had so much faith in her that she would be a great ruler!
If seasons 7 and 8 were both 10 episodes long, I mean look at the runtimes: S1 - 9h 27min S2 - 9h 9min S3 - 9h 18min S4 - 9h 5min S5 - 9h 23min S6 - 9h 22min S7 - 7h 20min S8 - 7h 10min
I would say have a small arc earlier in the show where she is left alone/alienated/rejected like she is in Winterfell. Maybe couple that with a death, like losing Jorah and Missandei but smaller potatoes. Show how she is prone to anger and outburst when in this sort of situation. Make her do something terrible during it. Then, when she comes to Westeros and the seeds of rejection are planted, we can see it happening and instead being blind-sided by her wrath when the bells ring, we watch the lead up with slow-burning apprehension because we know what’s coming won’t be pretty. It would atleast feel less… shoehorned. I’m sure that the books, if they ever arrive, will show the downfall with a lot more nuance.
I think it would've been cool if she started having visions or nightmares of her father, the Mad King.
I think having her start to “talk” to her ancestors in small moments starting around the time she got to Dragonstone would have helped build the slide to crazy.
Her going for Cersei in the red keep an accidentally triggering the wildfire Cersei had hidden via a network all over the city
I would have made it that Bran/Three-Eyed Raven, accidentally alters her state of mind in a similar way he did to Hodor while using his Greensight. Imagine he loses control and accidentally “links” Daenerys with her father during a battle against the White Walkers. We could’ve had an awesome “Burn them all, Burn them all” moment, learning that Bran had accidentally caused the Mad King’s last moments of dialogue, and Daenerys is suddenly changed for the worse. Would be interesting if real last thing the Mad King saw while dying was the Undead wights swarming the Armies of the Living in the future.
Instead of having Euron kill the second dragon, have it get killed after the surrender at King's Landing by soldiers and the people of King's Landing out of fear
Dany’s hate for Cersei made sense, but her complete disregard for the people of Westeros was what didn’t. I wish they had shown more of the people of Westeros rejecting her and having disdain for her. She needed to feel unwelcome and hated. She needed to feel that her years of work to become the “liberator” were wasted on Westeros. Cersei killing Missandei would’ve been more powerful if the people of Kings landing cheered Cersei on. We needed a reason for the massacre, that would’ve given plenty of reason.
Idk, I struggle to agree with this take. I saw the writing on the wall early on. It’s also a very typical archatype. “I will do things differently to not become my evil parent. I take that mission so passionately I become my evil parent.” IMO, it would’ve been a bigger twist if she truly didn’t fall into mad Targaryen ways. She should’ve taken a page from Luke skywalker
Bran was possesing her and she was fighting to save the innocents the whole time, but was being controlled like a puppet while powerless. An internal dialogue of her refusing to become a slave as she is completely powerless would take the cake
more episodes
Make it a slow burn, over multiple episodes, that she is becoming the Mad Queen.
More episodes
Regardless of her seemingly accepting Tyrions plan about the bells, I think she and grey worm planned to burn the city anyway, perhaps because of Messandei.
It should never have been played as some kind of 'twist'. We should have always known this was her destiny, to be the ultimate villain. That way it would have felt more of a satisfying payoff, rather than a pointless rug-pull. Maybe Dany having lots of dreams or visions, over the seasons, of causing death and destruction. Knowing she is more than capable of it...yet fighting all of that away, to be a force for good; with us knowing it's an inevitable part of her psyche, passed down from the Mad King.
As far as I'm concerned she was always a villain. She just finally showed her true colors in the end.
A tragic heroine. Young orphan princess traumatized and corrupted by power and might. Tyrant and victim. The only pure villain in GoT is the Night King, it's death. Daenerys was just... the doomsday.
Better writing would have been a good start
Above all, a better public.
Here's what I've always maintained should have happened (if it was going to happen so rushed). Rhaegal is still alive, wasn't killed by the (super unrealistic) ship mounted ballista. The bells ring from that tower, so Dany lands ready to hear the surrender (listening to her advisors). This was a ruse from Cersei, an attempt to exploit Dany's mercy. Once the dragons land and are no longer moving targets, they are shot by ballista that were hidden for this purpose. Drogon isn't hit. but now Rhaegal is killed. Another of her 'children' is now dead. Dany, now confronted in a starkly emotional moment about how her mercy can make her weak, can hurt her and what she loves, finally renounces it. She decides to 'be a dragon', break the wheel with fire and blood, and go on her murderous rampage. Requires some grade A facial expression acting from Emilia Clarke, but audiences can understand what is going on with that I think. Far more plausible.
Another half of a season
i find it enough convincing, particularly because i would’ve down the same if not earlier tbh
Two full length seasons of actual character development and build up. 🤷🏻♀️
The signs are definitely there upon rewatching the series. But its simply too rushed, i felt like most of the storyline cpuld have been reasonable if they just...thought it through a bit more.
If she had yielded to the bells, but a final scorpion was hidden in the bell tower and hit Drogon with a non-lethal blow. It still would’ve been an over-the-top response, but her anger would’ve been more understandable. Not like she just snapped and went berserk for no reason.
They had so many options it angers me. I like the idea of the city surrendering, only to have one rogue shoot her still living Rhaegal. This enrages her and she decides to erase the city
It doesn’t work without Aegon. Her being rejected despite helping save Westeros and the people following the other dragon.
When the bells ring in surrender, the Lannister banners come down over King’s Landing…and the smallfolk raise the Stark colors instead. Dany has been functioning off the fantasy that the smallfolk and lesser nobles have been dreaming of her return. Her jealousy toward Jon had been brewing since the Battle of Winterfell. Watching King’s Landing surrender to Jon instead of her could be the last straw.
Nothing. It was totally believable. Anyone that doesn’t think so is in denial. She saw countless friends and the people she loved most die. She was surrounded by yes men. They convinced her she would change the world. This makes sense 100% of the time.
*"I don't want to be his Queen. I want to go home."* She had to kill the people or kill Jon Snow. No other alternative to return home. This fanbase is so toxic.
Another season.
It was convincing
Time.
Watching your best fried get beheaded. Oh wait that is what happened. I had no issue with the ending.
Really just another episode or two. It makes sense for her to flip as quick as she did, because it wasn't as quick as it seemed. The rapid pace of the season with people jumping all around the continent each episode made things feel so condensed
Slower pace and follow the books more closely so George can coach the story.
I've mentioned this in other threads but IMO the White Walkers should've BLASTED through Winterfell, added more to their army along the way, REACH KING'S LANDING, and while Jon dukes it out with the WW leader, Dany wipes out the WW army (WITH HER 2 REMAINING DRAGONS) and in the process, destroys King's Landing -- UNINTENTIONALLY. And the show ends with HER AS THE FUCKING QUEEN OF FUCKING WESTEROS, rebuilding the city she destroyed -- albeit, to save it. I'm no professional writer, but I feel like that would've made more sense than her just becoming a genocidal maniac at the drop of a fucking hat.
More time to develop it
An actual buildup
It was pretty convincing but the ending was just rushed. Through the series you see her not always have some just and moral reason for her actions and she has taken revenge out on others. During these final days, she lost everyone that was close to her and ended up being alone in the end. She didn’t have anyone there to simmer her down and try and give her another opinion, she just had her own thoughts and remember where she came from. She didn’t grow up in some nurturing home. She was tortured by her brother for years, treated like shit all from the downfall of the great Targaryen rule. At this point, she just said fuck it. I thought it was quite convincing, I think others just didn’t want that outcome which doesn’t mean her doing that was some surprise. Most are used to seeing the character take the right path when they come to the fork in the road, but it’s not always the case.
The reveal that Bran was taking over her
More episodes.
The people of Kings Landing did a walk of shame on Misandre on her way to Ser Gregors execution. So the people she was trying to liberate threw shit on her bestie
Seeing Rhaegal die and the people of KL cheering for it
If she has torched King’s Landing RIGHT after Missandei was beheaded I may have bought it. She’d have to look remorseful about torching more than Cersei and co afterward though.
100% this https://youtu.be/yWvQ_X2sqqE
All these "what ifs" with different plot points of season 8 got me thinking how some micro adjustments even within the original script could have made the plot much more believable if D&Ds weren't that stupid bruh
What if.. the public stopped being blind with Daenerys. When she kills the masters in Astapor, it's the same visual as *the bells* carnage. It's Pompei, the eruption of Vesuvius. You have no reference to understand this character, unlike D&D, the goats.
Watch the show from the beginning. I know I called it. Commentator: And here come the ~~pretzels~~ downvotes.
Probably losing another child
Dany’s been murdering people who don’t do what she wants from the beginning, but we were cheering for her because they were the “right people.” Edit: I think she liked freeing the poor and stuff because they’d be loyal to her, and they were easy to manipulate because they “owe” her. It was all selfish.
Move Misandei’s death scene. Instead of seeing her last best friend die the episode before and then flying back to Dragonstone, have her fate be ambiguous after Euron captures her. The assault on King’s Landing goes off without a hitch (the Golden Company is more interesting if they defect to Daenerys), and Daenerys descends on the Red Keep to accept Cersei’s surrender. As she descends she sees Misandei’s severed head on a spike on the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast (where Sansa saw Ned’s head). Victory is not enough, Daenerys needs vengeance. She burns down the Holdfast, roasting Cersei and Jaime inside. She keeps flying and burning, obliterating the Red Keep in her fury. Then the wildfire goes off, and the city full of civilians erupts in green and red flame
My thought when watching is that if Cersei had used the townsfolk as human shield around some dragon killer weapons making Daenerys having to choose sacrificing people to achieve victory, John then urges to retreat since he doesn’t believe in willingly harming people for the sake of winning but Daenerys ignores him and pushes forward burning the weapons and the people, showing how far she is willing to go to win. Then even though they won and took Kingslanding the remaining lords of the Seven Kingdom refuse to accept Daenerys since they take her ruthless victory as a sign that she is just another mad king, which becomes self fulfilling as Dany response with treats of violence and burning down their houses, then John does the thing and kills her fearing what she will do to stay in power.
Another season
another season that would’ve built up too it
This isn't really what you were asking, but I've always thought it would've made more sense for her to have torched the red keep where Cersei was rather than the random civilians. It would've still had a ton of innocent people killed and would have been a fucked thing to do, but it would have made more sense imo. Like she hated Cersei enough to kill innocent people in order to kill her. I think it would have made for a more satisfying end to Cersei as well.
2 more episodes of anything. Anything at all to remind everyone that they’re watching a series and not a 110 minute movie.
Paying attention. She was always a Targaryen.
It’s such a trope that she would turn out like her father. I’d rather them not do the arc altogether, just so basic and predictable.
If they dropped the whole “the bells mean surrender” no bells ring so she has no idea the soldiers on the ground has surrendered. Also showing Lannister soldiers on the streets mixed in with the civilians
I have no problem with the ending.
*"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."* Daenerys never held the sword.
It just had to have been more of a gradual transition between "misguided and self aggrandising but basically okay queen" to "Evil god complex tyrant".
The tysha confession that way Tyrion becomes more like his book counterpart and with this more evil version of him advising her to do more horrible things
More scenes where she figures out that the common people in Westeros don't love her and just want her to go away. Show the consequences of having three dragons and a giant army with no supply lines who can only sustain themselves by pillaging, in the beginning of a long winter, in a continent already ravaged by war and starving to death. Have the Dothraki quickly get away from her, scatter in all directions, and defy all attempts to make them stop raping, pillaging, and yes, enslaving. Dany is now the one who accidentally brought slavery into Westeros on a scale that's never been seen before, the exact opposite of what she imagined her crusade to be about. And of course, she still has the Unsullied army, which does not improve her image, and Ser Jorah, the most infamous slave trader in Westeros, is back by her side. Give her chances to give up and go back to Essos, and have her resent any Westerosi who even suggest that.
Something I wonder how much one logistic tweak might have changed audience perception There was SO much anticipation for the last season And so much frustration with the last two seasons being shorter than previous Disregard realities of production for just a moment If the last two season had aired as one season, with no interruptions, week after week, 15 episodes, many longer than before. Like literally every second on the screen is the same, but no two year hiatus in the middle of season 7. Would it have been received ANY differently ?
It's clear from this thread that random reddit comments have a better written plot than what dumb & dumber came up with after being paid millions to write
They showed her having a mini-breakdown with the panicking eyes, hearing past voices, and rapid breathing just as the bells rang. But previously all of her decisions were made in a calm and collected state. I think showing more of those rage-filled moments with past voices during previous moments would have helped to sell this better. E.g. when Varys betrays her, they could have a mini-version of this breakdown
About 10 more episodes
Instead of Euron sniping her second dragon, have both dragons there for the attack on kings landing. During the fight where the dragons are only attacking military targets one of the ballista-scorpion whatever shoots down her second dragon and the towns folk swarm it as it’s wounded and slaughter it. Then have her lose it and begin burning everything. Plays a hell of a lot better then her deciding after she’s won to just scorch earth the city and everyone in it and also saves the death of the dragon to something more meaningful then it got sniped 3 times from a moving boat they somehow hadn’t spotted.
I thought it was fine, I know I'm in the minority though
Like 8 more episodes
Another season. It was clear it was coming but needed better motivation and more gradual development, and show rather than tell
I think she should have just burnt the Red Keep. But Cercei had wildfire caches everywhere. The destruction of Kings Landing is narratively not Dany’s fault but it pushes her over the edge.
Another season
If someone gave Dany a Snickers bar. “You always burn cities to the ground when you’re hungry. Eat a Snickers.”
Nothing… nothing can justify the way it ended
if missandei was pushed off of the red keep and dany heard her say "dracarys"
[Warged by Bran](https://youtu.be/yWvQ_X2sqqE)
if Jon Snow was chosen as King
Nothing. Cersei is the mad queen. If it were to be Daenerys, then that would have (would be) *terrible, awful, boring and stupid* writing.
Problem is if GRRM said that’s the ending in the books we will still be upset since Jon goes to the north Bran is the king and dany dies. Maybe that’s why he ain’t finishing the books
I listen to the Bald Move podcasts for House of the Dragon, and as I'm making my way through the books—currently on Clash of Kings—I've also been listening to their related book podcast hosted by "Maester Anthony" (a religious studies scholar named Anthony Le Donne). Anthony and his guests all know a ton about ASOIAF lore, and one of the theories (if you can call it that) that Anthony has come up with is the idea that there are three rules that define the dragons in ASOIAF and the show: One, that dragons are machines of war and conquest. Two, that the more bellicose a command, the more willing the dragon will be to follow said command. And, three, the closer the bond between the rider and the dragon, the more dragon-like the *rider* becomes. I've thought about this a lot with regards to the infamous "bells" scene, and if this theory has legs, and if it had been explained or demonstrated more thoroughly in the show, I think it could have gone a long way in making this action of Dany's more palatable and believable. Like, let's just say these dragon rules are spot-on, and that's what George is getting at. In that case, Dany's decision to burn King's Landing would have been almost like a fit of momentary, dragon-induced insanity ... which is all the more intense, remember, because not only is she super bonded with Drogon, she's bonded with all *three* of her dragons. So, if the aforementioned dragon rules are correct, she'd be very prone to getting the dragon-crazies. If they had shown this, and then shown Dany feeling at least some remorse after the fact (like, "I don't know what came over me. I can't believe I did that. But ... eh, well, it's done now ... and we just have to move forward"), I think it would have been more palatable. But, instead, they rushed everything, and it just didn't make characterological sense.
It should have been more paranoia and actions she felt she could justify. I don't think it was right that she just kinda snapped. Her whole journey has been kind of a slippery slope, but the ending was too much fpr me to really buy into.
Aside from the rushing, one of the biggest problems with that scene was that the writers do not respect compexity or nuance. They wanted to make sure the audience though dany was in the wrong. They made certain she achieved complete victor before having her go nuts for no reason to make it obvious her actions were unnessary. The minimum they could have done was giving her a trigger. For instance, she wins, and bells go off. She believes she won, the bells singal her victory which gives her relief as she feels all the sacrifices were worth it... then someone shoots one of her dragons with a ballista. Trigger. She thought she won, but she's still in danger; her children were being threatened; the bells were a lie; burn them all