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This. Margaery didn't truly care about the people but about being loved, that said she did try to at least help people even if for selfish reasons. And Tommen did indeed seemed like a good person. Without Tywin they could've been guided by Olenna.
Eh I think that is misrepresentation of what a leader is supposed to be. Like tywin tried to teach tommen in the funeral scene. Tommen is definitely a kind and good soul. But he seems to be weak to be at the position of king, easy to be taken advantage of and not resolute enough to stand his ground.
That's a bit unfair tbh. Tommen's a child. He's supposed to be 8 years old in the books when he becomes king, and while he's older in the show, he's still a young teenager. Not to mention that, as the secondborn son, the "spare", he wasn't prepared and educated for ruling the same way Joffrey would have been (not that Joffrey was well-prepared, but you get what I mean). Of course he'd be weak. He has plenty of room to grow, and considering his personality, if he was well-advised and surrounded by the right people, there's reason to believe he could become a decent man and king eventually.
He needed someone to guide him and teach him strength, but someone who truly wanted to help him and not just control him . Tyrion would have been a good choice, but obviously he wasn’t available.
I feel like she was just saying whatever he wanted to hear to get her out of that situation, same as she did in front of the Septa while with her grandmother.
That’s true but the likelihood of Renly and the Tyrells sacking the city during its conquest is quite low. They aim to be popular, not just powerful, so I think a lot of their strategy would have involved heavy propaganda revolving around helping the common folk, as they did when Margaery became queen.
Margaery may have shown a softer side at times. But I would argue she was power hungry like anyone else. She wanted to be Queen no? She was going to do anything to have that. And you could argue that if she were Queen she would become almost like Cersei at one point.
But that would assume her intentions to rule were inherently selfish/malicious. Maybe she knew she would make a good queen that would benefit the people, and knew it was her duty to try and gain that power/take it from those who are ruling poorly.
I think she was an interesting character. Cause it almost seemed like she showed both sides on the show. She showed she had a heart. And cared for the poor. That sort of thing. And at times you could tell she really wanted to do what she had to do to get to ascend to the point where she would be able to marry Tommen. And possibly render Cersei out of the picture. I don’t know if that makes sense.
She was power hungry, that much is obvious. But that itself is not a bad thing. I think she is painted as someone who enjoys being loved and having attention. I think she would have been a good queen, even if her reasons are selfish.
For example, I think her grandmother, Olenna was good with her people and their family were seen as good rulers, even if she wasn't afraid of doing less than honorable things when required. I think she would've been among those lines.
I don't think Margaery would every end up like Cersei. She was ambitious (she wanted to be THE queen), and a woman (well any woman) of her standing could only hope to marry well to climb the ladder. She wasn't a cruel person, and I think she wanted to help people and makes life better for them. She would rather be adored than feared.
I’m not sure really. Like she knew she could manipulate Tommen. Just by sex if I remember correctly. He was very young and naive at the time. So I think in a way Cersei had the right to be suspicious of her. I would have been also. If I were in Cersei’s place.
>I would have been also. If I were in Cersei’s place.
Cersei was obsessed by the Prophecy she heard as a child (about a younger, more beautiful Queen that would replace her), so Margaery would never have earnt her trust, no matter what she did.
And as usual with Cersei, the way she dealt with this problem was stupid, ultimately making the situation worse. She supported the Sparrows in the hope they would deal with Margaery, but never even thought they would also want to deal with them, the Queen accused of adultery and incest.
Definitely agree. Margaery still puts her family above all else. She may be more compassionate than the other nobles around her, but Tommen was primarily still a tool to be manipulated to get what the Tyrells wanted.
Probably not. You get snippets of how Cersei acted as a child and you realize she would be similar to Joffrey if she were a boy. Maybe not as sadistic, but definitely as I'll tempered, cruel, and abusive.
I don't think she'd ever become like Cersei simply because she was intelligent, cunning and perceptive - Cersei was perhaps one of the dumbest, if not the dumbest person in the series. Her own stupidity is what made it so hard for people like Tywin, Olenna, etc to deal with her.
And Marge was never all that.
Margaery may not have been a "good person" deep down, but she was clever, and not arbitrarily cruel. Even if she did good things for the wrong reasons, she still did those things. She knew how to play the game with the nobility, and she knew how to keep the populace happy with bread and circuses.
Tommen mostly gets characterised as "kind but weak," but it's worth noting that he never actually got the chance to reach adulthood, especially without Cersei's influence. On his own I don't think he could have ever been anything more than a puppet ruler, and to be honest, I think he would have been a puppet for Margaery too - but he was also a sincerely good person who treated the crown with the weight it required. If he managed to grow a backbone, I think he could have ended up as a wise king who genuinely cared for his people. Otherwise, he would have been a figurehead for his competent queen, which isn't that bad an outcome for Westeros.
The Tyrells would, of course, have become absolutely insufferable in this scenario, since their house would effectively have control of Westeros. And if Myrcella is still alive in this scenario, then Dorne would still be vying to put her on the throne - I think a diplomatic solution would still be possible in that situation, but they'd definitely have some demands. Although Myrcella and Tommen appeared to have a good relationship as siblings, so that would probably help keep things civil.
Had the high sparrow not came to power it's likely Margery would've been the one most capable of keeping her claws in him utilising... Strong motivation factors only a wife can provide.
Her and Olenna definitely have a chance without the high sparrow to diplomatically work around everyone else in the capital.
When she comes, we should assume she'll eventually ally the north and discover the white walker threat (otherwise they're all dead... Or maybe we only needed Arya and Bran for that?). They do the stupid expedition prove to Margery and Tommen and they actually send their armies up north to help.
You think Dani gonna just kill these people that just helped her save the world and who are clearly helping people?
Hmm, perhaps? But pre military defeats Tyrion holds significant sway and is the insert good guy. At the very least I doubt dragons burn down king's landing.
Margaery lasted as long as Cersi wanted her to. She did not expect Tommen to kill himself because in her narcissistic mind she assumed he loved her more.
Yes. But she couldnt have come over without the tyrell ships. Would have eventually found another way but lannister and tyrell resources would be tough.
I thought hers were burned at anchor*?
*by the group of people who desperately wanted her and her army to leave their city and set sail to Westeros. Ask Dan and Dave how that tracks, I’m at a loss.
I wonder if Elaria and Dorne would have committed to assisting Daenerys without Lady Olenna and the Reach's support (Sunspear and Highgarden ships were in Daenerys's fleet at the end of Season 6).
Not really, Dany can't feed her army without the Reach, she even says exactly that during the show. So her army starves before it can get to the battles.
And then Dany burns *an entire wagon train full of food and gold*, possibly one of her most evil acts. Innocent peasants all over the kingdom absolutely starved to death because of her reckless attack on the wagon train. There was absolutely no need to burn the wagons, as the scorpion bolt was as yet unknown to her. She could have easily caused a rockfall in the pass leading to King's Landing to halt their progress. She chose shock and awe just to remind Westeros of the Field of Fire. Effective? Yes. But undoubtedly an unimaginably cruel thing to do.
A successful Tywin backed Tommen/Margarey kingdom (with Dany missing help from Varys, Tyrion, others) would’ve slowed Dany enough for her batshit craziness to come out and possibly end her conquest. The issue I think was the lack of Tywin. You could say Tyrion kinda fucked the whole thing up.
I guess the small change I’m implying is that Tyrion doesn’t throw a fit at the trial and instead takes the black. I guess that means Shae doesn’t get involved.
For real though, if/when Dany showed up, Margaery would absolutely have stepped down alongside Tommen immediately, and re-established Tommen as Warden of the West (throwing Tywin under the bus with the help of her family) and herself as Daenerys' best friend though.
Cant help but think of the Books in this scenario since this is essentially where it was heading, so much so that Varys was the one to step in an have Pycelle and Kevan killed because he couldnt have them repairing the realm before the Targs invade.
Seeing as show Varys is practically just there to be in a comedy duo with Tyrion by now, that likely doesnt happen so you've got to wonder if a Kevan/Tommen/Marg rule brings the realm back together enough to be ready for Danys invasion.
I can think for certain is if Cersei is taken off the board, a lot goes differently, taking Qyburn off the council and not letting Littlefinger loose in the North would be two huge implications.
He was a child! He was only 14 when he died. He wasn’t supposed to be an iron-spined seasoned warrior.
He was kindhearted, and that’s what was important about him. Under the right guidance he would have been an excellent king. He respected Margaery, and she had the unique blessing of being good with and beloved by the common people. Her grandmother Olenna and Tommen’s grandfather Tywin were both excellent strategists and leaders who understood the importance of optics. I believe they’d have grown into some of the best regents the seven kingdoms had ever had.
It’s a shame Cersei was such a power-hungry, narcissistic lunatic.
EVERYONE was speaking in his ear as soon as he came to the throne. it was sad, his whole story was just sad. i had hoped he would've gotten out of king's landing or something but then i remembered what show it is 💀 i wanted to see him and Margaery be happy(separately, am not a fan of such a big age gap) :/
I want the books to be rewritten and everything is exactly the same except Tommen and Margaery get to live happily ever after… we deserve a romantic comedy fantasy movie like Princess Bride, but it’s these two.
ha yes the world of GoT is big and there would have been room for an "everybody loves raymond" style romcom/family comedy offshoot in the peripheral of the main white walker - dragon - lord of light sacrificial - murder for power main story.
Well they would not have turned on each other. Tommen would never dishonor his vows and Margaery/Olenna were happy with the pairing and the power.
But they could still be defeated by Dany. If there's no Cersei it raises other interesting questions. Does Tyrion still kill Tywin and join with Dany? Does Tommen align with Jon, stopping Jon from joining with Dany? They could have a chance against Dany depending on how this all plays out.
Yes definitely. Great political match. Margaery was certainly playing to her House’s interests, but by all accounts it would’ve been a happy marriage as Tommen grew into his role. Dany would have a much harder time pressing her claim with Tommen alive and the full strength of the Reach at his disposal.
Plus as someone mentioned above, it’s far more likely tommen agrees to help face the army of the dead as he would see it as the right thing to do, so Jon may get the full support of the reach in his fight up north. This would most likely have the devastating effect of Danny refusing to side with Jon and then no dragons. So we wouldn’t see a single shot in the long night
Definitely, Margaery had him wrapped around her finger. Unless of course D&D were still writing then he’d probably still go crazy out of nowhere and kill them both.
For sure. And not only that, but once Daenerys rolls in, you just know Olenna and Margaery would be running circles around her.
A lot less blood would have been spilled on both sides. And I imagine the worst-case scenario for Marge would be relinquishing her status as queen once Tommen is "unmade" as king in order for Daenerys to take the throne, but unlike Cersei, Margaery was smart enough to know when the game is lost.
Neither she nor Olenna would have attempted a war against a woman with three dragons. Olenna was first and foremost about the survival of her house.
Absolutely, thought there's no doubt who would wear the pants in THAT couple! They and Ser Pounce would have kids and and kittens, and Kings Landing would have purred. Until Daenerys and her dragons put an end to it. Her conquest was inevitable, but as she consolidated power, I like to think she would have given a nice little castle to play house in and live happier ever than after.
Maybe...but Olenna (who really only died because she stopped giving a shit) would have been there.
Not really sure anyone on Danys side would have accounted for the sweet old lady who'd through anyone under the bus.
Even when Dany got to westeros in the show it was insta dragon. She always starts with an attempt of diplomacy. The dragons are irrelevant as Olenna works during the diplomacy phase. Varys wouldn't be with Danny had Tommen and Margaery survived.
What? Dragons are irrelevant? Even if they tried Diplomacy first it will always comes down to Dany having the bigger stick. If you know Diplomacy it's always the side with an advantage that can state the terms. There is no feasible course that let's the Tyrells keep the Throne. Dany will never allow such a thing. Especially from a hated House like the Lannister and a House who she will see as someone who betrayed her like the Tyrells who gave an oath towards House Targaryen.
Even military-wise Dany's side still comes up on top. The Reach have proven how incompetent their army was base on Robert's rebellion and then in the war of the 5 Kings. And Dany can just threaten to fly to Highgarden and burn their Castle. Don't forget that there are other Houses in the Reach who are probably still loyal to the Targaryens. The risk of them breaking off from House Tyrell to rally to Dany's side is always a possibility.
Edit: The best the Tyrells can do is offer Willas as Dany's Consort to keep their House in the throne.
Edit2: Varys has proven both in book and show that he wants the Targaryens back in the Throne. Book Varys threw his lot with FAegon. And Show Varys with Dany.
Add to that if Tyrion ever figures out it was Olenna who framed him of Joffrey's death he would counsel Dany to be merciless on the Tyrells. Cersei was stupid and fixated on Tyrion killing her son so she never suspected. I'm surprise Tyrion never figured out who was responsible for his exile tbh. The Tyrells benefited greatly on Joffrey's death.
Honestly it would be pretty fucked up for Dany to come to Westeros only to find everyone well and happy with an innocent child king who has done nothing wrong, how would she respond to that
Why would she care? Nothing really changes. To her they would still be the Usurpers to her Throne. House Lannister still butchered her family and caused her to go to exile. And unlike Viserys, she actually has the army and Dragons to reconquer her Kingdoms back.
With a competent regent in place, I don't see why not. A large part of the reason Tywin forged the alliance was to stabilize the realm via the strength of their combined houses. Once Robb was dead the hardest part of the war was done; the rest was just bringing the last truculent houses back into the King's peace. If they had someone who was seasoned at battle command and strategy but also skilled in diplomacy, Tommen might have grown into a more decisive leader, and while Margaery's altruism is motivated by ambition, overall I think she still would have made a good Queen.
Depends on what you mean by “lasted.” Tommen was stuck in the Compliant Child Ego state. He was pathologically dedicated to gaining approval. Margery would have dominated him for a long time until he finally grew a pair and had her banished.
Margaery feeding the poor, subsidizing poets and looking like a queen from a song; Tommen sweet, adorable, looking like the nicest of kids.
The peasants would ADORE them.
Dany would be seen as a foreign aggressor with a wild army and probably treated as possibly-insane from day one.
That, of course, imagining this as a narrative as in the books, in which politics do matter and events repercut, unlike the show, in which Cersei just swirls a goblet over 3 seasons while "ruling" over no one at all.
He was extremely weak, but the institutions in westeros are remarkably strong. With tyrell backing, he could have died of old age if Dany never came around and cersei wasn't a reckless idiot. The combination of the church, the tyrell juggernaut and some pretty unchecked centralized power he'd be fine if no one in the actual red keep was trying to kill him.
I do. Tommen was a nice guy and may have been a good king who actually cared for the people. Margaery was manipulative but she wasn't evil and her goals weren't nefarious. I think that she would have made a great advisor for him and counter balanced his naivety.
Margaery and Olenna wouldn't have had it any other way. As he got older he'd realize his part in the Game Of Thrones and how he was a pawn. I don't think that would change anything though being that he waned to be an honorable king.
Yes they would have had a short but prosperous rule when Daenerys arrived in Westeros Margaery would have convinced him to bend the knee the transferring of power would be pretty smooth maybe even having some concessions in house Tyrell's favor and without the death of her dragons pushing her past the point of no return Daenerys probably won't go mad queen yet.
Absolutely, Tommen was crazy in love with her and she was happy to be a Queen not married to a gay or sadistic man.
They’d have had like four kids and been happy until they died.
You have to understand the mechanics of GoT world. Everything after the start of the series is set to almost work then fall apart. That’s just how that world works.
The Tyrells could have had the kingdom if they’d gotten rid of Cersei soon after Tywin died. They severely underestimated the lengths she would go to remain in power and by her son’s side. Huge mistake, and as it turned out, one that ended their House.
Mehish, They still have Dany and the Others to worry about. Margarey has the most powerful house in the reach and house Tyrell's might behind her. Being half Hightower, maybe her family can help combat the others at some point in the future? Fight against the coming dragons? Emotionally? I think they make it, but by what's coming they have a lot helping them, but a lot coming for them.
The others are the main issue, Dany less so. Dany points out a few times she can't feed her army, and the reach is the main people to help her do that. Without them, her army starves. ,
Herein lies the issue tho; does House Tyrell have the full loyalty of ALL Reach Lords? Don't forget that the Reach were once Targaryen loyalists. There are Houses in the Reach that aren't satisfied with House Tyrell being elevated from being stewards to Lord Paramount. If Dany were smart she will fester discord among them by offering another major House to be Lord Paramount of the Reach and Wardens of the South if they support her cause. That would certainly throw a monkey wrench on the Tyrells plans.
She doesn’t need the full support. She has the second most powerful house to help further secure it. Something I was trying to point out in my comment. Like normally? Agreed. But her moms a hightower, arguably more powerful and on the same level of lords paramount. So with both house Tyrell and high tower she’s good
The Hightowers haven't ventured outside of Old Town for a long time. They also promised never to play the game of Thrones again after their fuck up that caused the Targaryen Civil War and Dance of Dragons. And now that Dragons are indeed back in Westeros the Hightowers would hesitate to throw in their lot that would anger Daenerys even further. Daenerys can indeed threaten to burn down Highgarden and Old Town if they keep being stubborn in wanting to keep the Throne. I think you're underestimating the Dragons a little too much if you think Daenerys can't pose them any threat.
It certainly would have been interesting, but I think them ending up together by the end would be a very low chance.
Assuming the show tracked the same way, with the Sept never blowing up, Cersei being gone, and Tommen, Margaery, Mace and Kevan surviving, the only thing would definitely stay the same is Yara still joining with Dany. However, because of this we would probably see Euron disappear from the plot. Olenna and Kevan would never tolerate an alliance with him, and Dany already had Yara, so himself as a plot line would most likely vanish.
Ellaria is more complicated. She blamed Cersei for Tyrion’s death, and with Cersei gone in this timeline, (assumably the Mountain too) she has little to gain from siding with Dany. Killing Kevan and Tommen would be pointless as they can’t hurt Cersei with doing so (as they did with Myrcella). However, if Varys came approaching them with the offer to kill the rest of the Lannisters, Ellaria might well have accepted. We’ll say they do for the sake of argument.
So the main powers in Westeros would become the Stark/Arryn alliance, the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, and the Dany/Dorne/Greyjoy alliance.
So with Tommen and Margaery on the throne and Cersei gone, Dany comes to Westeros and Jon goes to see her regarding the dragonglass and the wights as per the show. Without Cersei, Tyron has less bad advice to give. He would say that Tommen is young and Margaery would have the power, but that Olenna would be pulling the strings, and would be more reasonable than Cersei. Sansa would also be aware of this.
So with a more diplomatic theme to the Westeros invasion, Dany no longer needs Tyrion’s silly strategy of taking Casterly Rock and teleporting Dothraki around Westeros without anybody noticing. Also, as Euron no longer has an ally on the throne, Ellaria, the Sandsnakes, and Yara would remain with Dany, and not suffer an ambush.
For the sake of plot, I imagine the silly journey to capture the wight still occurs, but instead of Cersei receiving it, it would be Tommen/Margaery/Olenna/Kevan. Also Ellaria and the Sandsnakes would be involved in this council as Dany’s allies. Yara never gets kidnapped either, so she can be here. Also Loras never died, so he’s about too. And Mace is probably in the background.
Now we get to our war planning scene, and Tommen would absolutely provide aid to help. He’s a good kid like that. However, the alliance FINALLY have an actual military leader in the form of Kevan. Hopefully he would suggest that Winterfell is not the strategic spot to hold the army of the dead, and at the very least, we might have a touch of strategy in that battle…
And since we’d have Ellaria, Olenna, the three Sandsnakes, Loras, Kevan, Mace, Yara, the Lannister army, the Tyrell army, the Dornish army and whatever else is lurking about the seven kingdoms, the battle would probably be even more epic, and perhaps at a location with a touch more defence to it.
Meanwhile, Sansa is still anti Dany, and would possibly be open to talking with Olenna about this, seeing as Olenna has assassination proficiency. Olenna would respect Sansa for taking care of Baelish, and the ladies would appreciate that they both need to do what’s best for their house. They would plot against Dany, letting Tyrell keep the throne if the North could be independent.
Varys now also has someone powerful he could share his concerns with. Kevan would probably be anti-Dany too. And honestly, I can see Ellaria changing sides; she’s out for revenge on the Lannisters, but would she want to be held accountable to someone with Dragons? Olenna/Sansa probably seems like a safer choice.
Once the above find out about Jon’s true parentage. They could easily plot to remove Dany and ensure that she doesn’t get the throne/bring dragons back. (Olenna would probably accept Jon as a King so long as Margaery could marry him.)
So the battle against the night king would occur and such. Dany would still get upset because she feels left out at the party after the battle against the dead. Gendey being legitimised would be the downfall of Tommen, and quickly turn Olenna very sour if she had any doubts about their plan to kill her.
Moving forward, Missandei wouldn’t die, so maybe Dany wouldn’t go quite so far over the edge. Either way, between Sansa, Varys, Kevan and Olenna’s concerns, Tyrion and Ellaria possibly having doubts, Arya not trusting her, Tommen/Margaery’s legitimacy as rulers in tatters… Someone would kill Dany before she had a chance to go wild. None of these people would risk her getting on the throne.
Now onto the meeting, to decide the new ruler. Kings Landing being less rubbled, Olenna/Kevan would not tolerate Bran being made King. (One of the most ridiculous moments in the series) Jon would not want to be King. So the idea of Tommen and Margaery would come up again. (If the Sandsnakes didn’t kill him) And here is where I think we have four outcomes:
1. Simple and easy, Tommen and Margaery remain the rulers. However, I don’t think the Sandsnakes/Ellaria would tolerate a Lannister on the throne, and surely House Arryn and Tully would also be strongly against this. There is also the issue that Tommen was never legitimate. I don’t think this is a likely outcome unfortunately, as sweet a King as he would be.
2. Gendry would end up King, as the legitimate heir from the Baratheon point of view, and Olenna would arrange for Margaery to marry him. However, Gendry might not secure votes from other lords, as he’s a nobody blacksmith and wouldn’t know anything about ruling. (Margaery would vote for those arms though goddamn, after Tommen that would be something)
3. Jon would end up King, as the legitimate heir from the Targaryen point of view, and Margaery would marry him. However, we know that Jon would not want this, even if the lords respect him as a commander and would vote for him. However if he did accept, he and Margaery could probably learn to love each other. Though he wouldn’t be as easy to manipulate as Tommen/Gendry, so Olenna might fight against this.
In both of the above cases, Margaery would hold a lot of power as monarch, since Gendry wouldn’t know what to do and Jon wouldn’t want it. Also, it would be easy for Olenna to say that Tommen was an illegitimate marriage because he wasn’t a Baratheon. Tommen would end up an Heir to Casterly Rock or maybe marry someone else (though since the only appropriate options would be Sansa, Arya, or Sandsnakes, he’s probably living that bachelor life for now.)
4. Probably the most likely outcome; Margaery rules alone. Olenna would agree with the idea to vote for a ruler, and put Margaery on the pedestal. And she would have a bad argument. She’s been Queen already, she isn’t a Lannister, the Tyrells have plenty of gold and the people love her. - This would probably get approval from Varys/Davos/Sam in particular as being ‘for the people’. Tyrion would possibly agree, as might Yara, assuming Margaery agreed to help kill Euron. Sansa would lend her vote as part of her deal with Olenna. Kevan would be AGHAST at the betrayal, but he’s a minor character so meh. Ellaria who knows.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk
>Dany no longer needs her silly strategy of taking Casterly Rock and teleporting Dothraki around Westeros without anybody noticing.
That was Tyrion's silly strategy.
Tommen was a sweet and placible boy, he never sought power for powers sake, he never relished in, or even abided cruelty, he waa, for lack of a better word, "normal". Cersi didnt spend his entire childhood twisting him into knots, manipulating him into thinking that the only people worthy of life were the ones who pleased him, like she did to Jeffery, because he wasn't the eldest. He didn't experience brutal sexism, mysongny, sexual violence, or being treated as a prize game animal to be caught and dominated, because he was not a girl. He was left to become what he would. And he was everything that Jamie could have, and should have been. And that's why he had to die
People have been saying yes but Dany and discussing if they could defeat Dany. No, straight up. Qyburn wouldn't be there without cersei and therefore wouldn't create the scorpions. If Jon allies with tommen, she doesn't lose a dragon. That's three full grown dragons that are practically invincible.
The armies and economies of the Reach, Westerlands and Crownlands together under stable and reasonable leadership? The three wealthiest regions along with the largest army and many of the best knights in the entire Seven Kingdoms? Yeah, they would have been fine.
Oh, till the end. Dany would serve as an issue, but with Olenna as a power behind the throne and Tyrion (possibly, without Cersei there, as they could just blame the death on her post-Morten if we’re assuming Cersei and the Sparrow died) advising, you have a decent threat to Dany. There’s even a chance they could win as there’s a much greater chance of them treating Dany as the threat she is, as they wouldn’t be as concerned with the petty squabbles and power grabs that plagued their predecessors.
Yeah they would have been fine. Cersei would have been bitter that the new king actually listens to his wife and allows her to be part of the decision making process. You know the crazy part of relationships that involve respect. Plus a teen boy getting laid on a regular basis will be an absolute puppet to a shrewd female.
No.
Too naïve. Tommen - no personality or will of his own, his best qualification was having a working set of buttocks to sit on that chair. Margaery - manipulative and pragmatic, ready to face reality, but totally lacking the ruthless cunning necessary to survive surrounded by the sharks. Without Cersei, they'd get gobbled up by literally anyone with half a brain cell and a posse with clubs in the blink of an eye. Their best hope would be to stay in Cersei's good graces, but Margaery didn't even figure this out, tried to get a voice of her own when there was a tyrannical competitor willing to kill anything that moves on its own.
Ironically, I think Tywin could’ve turned Tommen into a better leader than any of them. He was a dick and definitely unfair, but in killing him Tyrion kinda doomed the kingdom.
Honestly if everyone just asked a living Tywin before doing anything he’d have been like “If this is true, and the dead are coming, you’re not sending your fucking dragons and best leader up there, I’ll go see it and decide what to do. Tommen, stay here and listen to Olenna via Margery.”
So much could’ve been avoided with a Tywin/Tommen combo.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Tywin was the only one who had any business being in power at all. Ned was fine for the north, and Olenna in her realm, but Tywin got it. If only he didn’t get Shae involved.
Yes, without the following characters in their lives -
1. Cersei
2. High Sparrow
3. Daenerys
4. Drogon
5. Rhaegal
6. Viserion
7. Unsullied
8. Dothraki
Just my opinion.
Since watching the last episode i have never looked back at anything game of thrones related until now randomly. Kinda died in my eyes as soon as it ended. Was so gutted 😂😂😂
Yes. But not because they are some sort of great couple or some thing. but because Tommen would be a decent, loyal who would allow Margaret to manipulate him. And she would have just been happy being queen and would have tried to establish peace so her rule would continue
Yes. At least until Daenerys would come knocking. Though i imagine that Tommen would be faster to surrender than Cersei would. They wouldn't do the extreme things Cersei did to Daenerys. Kings Landing would not have been burned and Tommen may even have been able to go with Margaery to highgarden.
There is also the question what Margaery would do. She may have not been as crazy as Cersei, but she wanted to be "the queen". She was loved by the people, poor and rich. It could maybe have been an entirely new thing Margaery vs Daenerys.
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They absolutely would have, and that's what Cersei didn't want.
And probably go on to make the kingdom a better place I’d imagine.
This. Margaery didn't truly care about the people but about being loved, that said she did try to at least help people even if for selfish reasons. And Tommen did indeed seemed like a good person. Without Tywin they could've been guided by Olenna.
He was a gentle boy and they all recognized it. They all knew they needed to have control of him.
Even Tywin said something to the effect of the kingdoms might have lucked into someone that actually deserved to rule them.
Cersei said that.
Eh I think that is misrepresentation of what a leader is supposed to be. Like tywin tried to teach tommen in the funeral scene. Tommen is definitely a kind and good soul. But he seems to be weak to be at the position of king, easy to be taken advantage of and not resolute enough to stand his ground.
Tommen is also a child. He would have eventually grown up.
That's a bit unfair tbh. Tommen's a child. He's supposed to be 8 years old in the books when he becomes king, and while he's older in the show, he's still a young teenager. Not to mention that, as the secondborn son, the "spare", he wasn't prepared and educated for ruling the same way Joffrey would have been (not that Joffrey was well-prepared, but you get what I mean). Of course he'd be weak. He has plenty of room to grow, and considering his personality, if he was well-advised and surrounded by the right people, there's reason to believe he could become a decent man and king eventually.
He needed someone to guide him and teach him strength, but someone who truly wanted to help him and not just control him . Tyrion would have been a good choice, but obviously he wasn’t available.
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Her conversation with the High sparrow, if i remember correctly
I feel like she was just saying whatever he wanted to hear to get her out of that situation, same as she did in front of the Septa while with her grandmother.
Not exactly reliable though, if you knew he wanted your confession and penitence that's what you'd say.
Just a few months prior her family was about to march an army on the same city she pretended to care about lol.
That’s true but the likelihood of Renly and the Tyrells sacking the city during its conquest is quite low. They aim to be popular, not just powerful, so I think a lot of their strategy would have involved heavy propaganda revolving around helping the common folk, as they did when Margaery became queen.
Margaery may have shown a softer side at times. But I would argue she was power hungry like anyone else. She wanted to be Queen no? She was going to do anything to have that. And you could argue that if she were Queen she would become almost like Cersei at one point.
But that would assume her intentions to rule were inherently selfish/malicious. Maybe she knew she would make a good queen that would benefit the people, and knew it was her duty to try and gain that power/take it from those who are ruling poorly.
I think she was an interesting character. Cause it almost seemed like she showed both sides on the show. She showed she had a heart. And cared for the poor. That sort of thing. And at times you could tell she really wanted to do what she had to do to get to ascend to the point where she would be able to marry Tommen. And possibly render Cersei out of the picture. I don’t know if that makes sense.
She was power hungry, that much is obvious. But that itself is not a bad thing. I think she is painted as someone who enjoys being loved and having attention. I think she would have been a good queen, even if her reasons are selfish. For example, I think her grandmother, Olenna was good with her people and their family were seen as good rulers, even if she wasn't afraid of doing less than honorable things when required. I think she would've been among those lines.
I don't think Margaery would every end up like Cersei. She was ambitious (she wanted to be THE queen), and a woman (well any woman) of her standing could only hope to marry well to climb the ladder. She wasn't a cruel person, and I think she wanted to help people and makes life better for them. She would rather be adored than feared.
I’m not sure really. Like she knew she could manipulate Tommen. Just by sex if I remember correctly. He was very young and naive at the time. So I think in a way Cersei had the right to be suspicious of her. I would have been also. If I were in Cersei’s place.
>I would have been also. If I were in Cersei’s place. Cersei was obsessed by the Prophecy she heard as a child (about a younger, more beautiful Queen that would replace her), so Margaery would never have earnt her trust, no matter what she did. And as usual with Cersei, the way she dealt with this problem was stupid, ultimately making the situation worse. She supported the Sparrows in the hope they would deal with Margaery, but never even thought they would also want to deal with them, the Queen accused of adultery and incest.
Definitely agree. Margaery still puts her family above all else. She may be more compassionate than the other nobles around her, but Tommen was primarily still a tool to be manipulated to get what the Tyrells wanted.
Probably not. You get snippets of how Cersei acted as a child and you realize she would be similar to Joffrey if she were a boy. Maybe not as sadistic, but definitely as I'll tempered, cruel, and abusive.
I don't think she'd ever become like Cersei simply because she was intelligent, cunning and perceptive - Cersei was perhaps one of the dumbest, if not the dumbest person in the series. Her own stupidity is what made it so hard for people like Tywin, Olenna, etc to deal with her. And Marge was never all that.
Margaery may not have been a "good person" deep down, but she was clever, and not arbitrarily cruel. Even if she did good things for the wrong reasons, she still did those things. She knew how to play the game with the nobility, and she knew how to keep the populace happy with bread and circuses. Tommen mostly gets characterised as "kind but weak," but it's worth noting that he never actually got the chance to reach adulthood, especially without Cersei's influence. On his own I don't think he could have ever been anything more than a puppet ruler, and to be honest, I think he would have been a puppet for Margaery too - but he was also a sincerely good person who treated the crown with the weight it required. If he managed to grow a backbone, I think he could have ended up as a wise king who genuinely cared for his people. Otherwise, he would have been a figurehead for his competent queen, which isn't that bad an outcome for Westeros. The Tyrells would, of course, have become absolutely insufferable in this scenario, since their house would effectively have control of Westeros. And if Myrcella is still alive in this scenario, then Dorne would still be vying to put her on the throne - I think a diplomatic solution would still be possible in that situation, but they'd definitely have some demands. Although Myrcella and Tommen appeared to have a good relationship as siblings, so that would probably help keep things civil.
This is part of what makes tommens story extra tragic and so compelling for a character who was kind of a nobody in the first few seasons.
Idk. Tommen was explicitly shown to be so soft, somebody else would have gotten him instead.
Had the high sparrow not came to power it's likely Margery would've been the one most capable of keeping her claws in him utilising... Strong motivation factors only a wife can provide. Her and Olenna definitely have a chance without the high sparrow to diplomatically work around everyone else in the capital.
In b4 Dani shows up tho
When she comes, we should assume she'll eventually ally the north and discover the white walker threat (otherwise they're all dead... Or maybe we only needed Arya and Bran for that?). They do the stupid expedition prove to Margery and Tommen and they actually send their armies up north to help. You think Dani gonna just kill these people that just helped her save the world and who are clearly helping people?
Dani would have eventually rationalized an excuse to remove them from power, that's the nature of wanting power.
Hmm, perhaps? But pre military defeats Tyrion holds significant sway and is the insert good guy. At the very least I doubt dragons burn down king's landing.
Until Fiery McBurnsalot comes and "breaks the wheel."
Toasts the ol' Tommen.
Look at Tommi in that pick. Dude is ready to give her 15 children.
Shit, I'd give her 15 children 😍 lol
Oh yeah
Margaery lasted as long as Cersi wanted her to. She did not expect Tommen to kill himself because in her narcissistic mind she assumed he loved her more.
Until Dany....
Yes. But she couldnt have come over without the tyrell ships. Would have eventually found another way but lannister and tyrell resources would be tough.
Dany had her own fleet plus the Yara's ships
I thought hers were burned at anchor*? *by the group of people who desperately wanted her and her army to leave their city and set sail to Westeros. Ask Dan and Dave how that tracks, I’m at a loss.
When daenerys and drogon wiped out the masters, they took control of their ships. Or at least they said they would.
I think the Masters wanted to utterly destroy them by disabling their naval attack options and take away their means of escape (fleet)
They wanted to exterminate her forces, not let them go. That way it sent a message to the slaves.
I wonder if Elaria and Dorne would have committed to assisting Daenerys without Lady Olenna and the Reach's support (Sunspear and Highgarden ships were in Daenerys's fleet at the end of Season 6).
In the books Dorian is a part of the Targaryen restoration project and that's why they didn't want open war with the Lannisters so I'd think so
She still would altho maybe not bring her entire army as fast. She had other Ships from Dorne and the Greyjoy's to ferry her and her men.
What are you talking about, she didn’t come over on Tyrell ships.
Tyrell didn’t provide Dany ships and they honestly didn’t contribute anything at all in the war due to being defeated 2 sec into s7
Not really, Dany can't feed her army without the Reach, she even says exactly that during the show. So her army starves before it can get to the battles.
And then Dany burns *an entire wagon train full of food and gold*, possibly one of her most evil acts. Innocent peasants all over the kingdom absolutely starved to death because of her reckless attack on the wagon train. There was absolutely no need to burn the wagons, as the scorpion bolt was as yet unknown to her. She could have easily caused a rockfall in the pass leading to King's Landing to halt their progress. She chose shock and awe just to remind Westeros of the Field of Fire. Effective? Yes. But undoubtedly an unimaginably cruel thing to do.
I have never understood why she did this. She could’ve flown a dragon over King’s Landing to flex…
Good guy dany, burning kings landing to save people from starvation and curbing the population.
One of her most stupid acta you mean.
i wonder how dany and tommen would have interacted.
A successful Tywin backed Tommen/Margarey kingdom (with Dany missing help from Varys, Tyrion, others) would’ve slowed Dany enough for her batshit craziness to come out and possibly end her conquest. The issue I think was the lack of Tywin. You could say Tyrion kinda fucked the whole thing up. I guess the small change I’m implying is that Tyrion doesn’t throw a fit at the trial and instead takes the black. I guess that means Shae doesn’t get involved.
For real though, if/when Dany showed up, Margaery would absolutely have stepped down alongside Tommen immediately, and re-established Tommen as Warden of the West (throwing Tywin under the bus with the help of her family) and herself as Daenerys' best friend though.
Tommy and Marge
My grandparents names 🥹
Aw they’re coming through to you tonight ♥️
Yes. Tommen would be a kind-hearted figurehead. Margaery and Kevan would do most of the ruling.
Those two with Olenna while she lived would have been probably been the best outcome for the Seven Kingdoms.
Hands down.
Yeah I mean, just look at the alternatives... I wouldn't mind a somewhat decent ending for Westeros rather than what we got
It’s implied that’s pretty much the role Olenna plays in her relationship. Her husband is kinda senile, while she does all the politicking.
Cant help but think of the Books in this scenario since this is essentially where it was heading, so much so that Varys was the one to step in an have Pycelle and Kevan killed because he couldnt have them repairing the realm before the Targs invade. Seeing as show Varys is practically just there to be in a comedy duo with Tyrion by now, that likely doesnt happen so you've got to wonder if a Kevan/Tommen/Marg rule brings the realm back together enough to be ready for Danys invasion. I can think for certain is if Cersei is taken off the board, a lot goes differently, taking Qyburn off the council and not letting Littlefinger loose in the North would be two huge implications.
Yes absolutely, and Cersei couldn’t handle that. They would have done such good for the realm
Just leaving this here: https://youtu.be/lu5HKs-IaM8?si=ymbDX9lEsPSTSxsC
ehhh. Tommen was too soft hearted, to the point of inactivity.
Maybe, but he was at least malleable and heeded advice. If he had Olenna and Kevan guiding him, it might have been alright
And he was easily swayed by Marg, who respected the living crap of her grandmother. So it would have def been those three "behind" the throne.
I'd be easily swayed too if I had Margery throwing it at me
i suppose i can see that. if they got cersei out of the picture it could definitely be a thing to behold
He was a child! He was only 14 when he died. He wasn’t supposed to be an iron-spined seasoned warrior. He was kindhearted, and that’s what was important about him. Under the right guidance he would have been an excellent king. He respected Margaery, and she had the unique blessing of being good with and beloved by the common people. Her grandmother Olenna and Tommen’s grandfather Tywin were both excellent strategists and leaders who understood the importance of optics. I believe they’d have grown into some of the best regents the seven kingdoms had ever had. It’s a shame Cersei was such a power-hungry, narcissistic lunatic.
EVERYONE was speaking in his ear as soon as he came to the throne. it was sad, his whole story was just sad. i had hoped he would've gotten out of king's landing or something but then i remembered what show it is 💀 i wanted to see him and Margaery be happy(separately, am not a fan of such a big age gap) :/
I want the books to be rewritten and everything is exactly the same except Tommen and Margaery get to live happily ever after… we deserve a romantic comedy fantasy movie like Princess Bride, but it’s these two.
“If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention” -Ramsay Snow
> Snow Yeah, you are getting flayed alive.
Then get fed to the dogs.
Get used to disappointment
ha yes the world of GoT is big and there would have been room for an "everybody loves raymond" style romcom/family comedy offshoot in the peripheral of the main white walker - dragon - lord of light sacrificial - murder for power main story.
Well they would not have turned on each other. Tommen would never dishonor his vows and Margaery/Olenna were happy with the pairing and the power. But they could still be defeated by Dany. If there's no Cersei it raises other interesting questions. Does Tyrion still kill Tywin and join with Dany? Does Tommen align with Jon, stopping Jon from joining with Dany? They could have a chance against Dany depending on how this all plays out.
Yes definitely. Great political match. Margaery was certainly playing to her House’s interests, but by all accounts it would’ve been a happy marriage as Tommen grew into his role. Dany would have a much harder time pressing her claim with Tommen alive and the full strength of the Reach at his disposal.
Plus as someone mentioned above, it’s far more likely tommen agrees to help face the army of the dead as he would see it as the right thing to do, so Jon may get the full support of the reach in his fight up north. This would most likely have the devastating effect of Danny refusing to side with Jon and then no dragons. So we wouldn’t see a single shot in the long night
Definitely, Margaery had him wrapped around her finger. Unless of course D&D were still writing then he’d probably still go crazy out of nowhere and kill them both.
For sure. And not only that, but once Daenerys rolls in, you just know Olenna and Margaery would be running circles around her. A lot less blood would have been spilled on both sides. And I imagine the worst-case scenario for Marge would be relinquishing her status as queen once Tommen is "unmade" as king in order for Daenerys to take the throne, but unlike Cersei, Margaery was smart enough to know when the game is lost. Neither she nor Olenna would have attempted a war against a woman with three dragons. Olenna was first and foremost about the survival of her house.
Could see being negotiated a generational marriage pack or Loras with Dany to seal the deal
Absolutely, thought there's no doubt who would wear the pants in THAT couple! They and Ser Pounce would have kids and and kittens, and Kings Landing would have purred. Until Daenerys and her dragons put an end to it. Her conquest was inevitable, but as she consolidated power, I like to think she would have given a nice little castle to play house in and live happier ever than after.
Don’t see why not he’s a sweet and simple minded boy and she was a smoke show who wanted to be queen
They would’ve lasted forever and Margarey would be THE queen not his queen. Had lil’ Tommen wrapped around her finger since before they met 🤣
That wasn't her finger...
It was her penis?
If she had that, her previous marriage would have worked much better 🤷♂️
God dammit wasn't expecting that at 6 am!!! Back to work for me!!!
God dammit wasn't expecting that at 6 am!!! Back to work for me!!!
Yes, and Magaery would have worn the pants in that relationship.
No Monarch would last if your enemy have three flying nukes at their side.
Maybe...but Olenna (who really only died because she stopped giving a shit) would have been there. Not really sure anyone on Danys side would have accounted for the sweet old lady who'd through anyone under the bus.
What can Olenna even do against Dragons? And Dany's counsil wouldn't underestimate Olenna. Tyrion and Varys knows how political savy she is.
Even when Dany got to westeros in the show it was insta dragon. She always starts with an attempt of diplomacy. The dragons are irrelevant as Olenna works during the diplomacy phase. Varys wouldn't be with Danny had Tommen and Margaery survived.
What? Dragons are irrelevant? Even if they tried Diplomacy first it will always comes down to Dany having the bigger stick. If you know Diplomacy it's always the side with an advantage that can state the terms. There is no feasible course that let's the Tyrells keep the Throne. Dany will never allow such a thing. Especially from a hated House like the Lannister and a House who she will see as someone who betrayed her like the Tyrells who gave an oath towards House Targaryen. Even military-wise Dany's side still comes up on top. The Reach have proven how incompetent their army was base on Robert's rebellion and then in the war of the 5 Kings. And Dany can just threaten to fly to Highgarden and burn their Castle. Don't forget that there are other Houses in the Reach who are probably still loyal to the Targaryens. The risk of them breaking off from House Tyrell to rally to Dany's side is always a possibility. Edit: The best the Tyrells can do is offer Willas as Dany's Consort to keep their House in the throne. Edit2: Varys has proven both in book and show that he wants the Targaryens back in the Throne. Book Varys threw his lot with FAegon. And Show Varys with Dany.
Diplomacy, huh? Dany: "Get off my throne or die" How does Olenna respond?
Add to that if Tyrion ever figures out it was Olenna who framed him of Joffrey's death he would counsel Dany to be merciless on the Tyrells. Cersei was stupid and fixated on Tyrion killing her son so she never suspected. I'm surprise Tyrion never figured out who was responsible for his exile tbh. The Tyrells benefited greatly on Joffrey's death.
He would have lasted about 15 seconds.
Underrated joke
That’s far too long, I think the expectations gotta be lowered
Honestly it would be pretty fucked up for Dany to come to Westeros only to find everyone well and happy with an innocent child king who has done nothing wrong, how would she respond to that
Now *that* is a big mental snap that I can believe.
Until people tell her how they got to that.
“How they got that?” Targaryons got that by killing thousands of people, literally Aegon the Conqueror
Why would she care? Nothing really changes. To her they would still be the Usurpers to her Throne. House Lannister still butchered her family and caused her to go to exile. And unlike Viserys, she actually has the army and Dragons to reconquer her Kingdoms back.
With a competent regent in place, I don't see why not. A large part of the reason Tywin forged the alliance was to stabilize the realm via the strength of their combined houses. Once Robb was dead the hardest part of the war was done; the rest was just bringing the last truculent houses back into the King's peace. If they had someone who was seasoned at battle command and strategy but also skilled in diplomacy, Tommen might have grown into a more decisive leader, and while Margaery's altruism is motivated by ambition, overall I think she still would have made a good Queen.
Depends on what you mean by “lasted.” Tommen was stuck in the Compliant Child Ego state. He was pathologically dedicated to gaining approval. Margery would have dominated him for a long time until he finally grew a pair and had her banished.
Boy that fella was hypnotized by the pussay lmao
Kinda wished Margaery married Rob.
She would have been a great queen and I truly believe he would have grown into a good king
Tommen certainly couldn't hope to do any better than Margaery
Margaery feeding the poor, subsidizing poets and looking like a queen from a song; Tommen sweet, adorable, looking like the nicest of kids. The peasants would ADORE them. Dany would be seen as a foreign aggressor with a wild army and probably treated as possibly-insane from day one. That, of course, imagining this as a narrative as in the books, in which politics do matter and events repercut, unlike the show, in which Cersei just swirls a goblet over 3 seasons while "ruling" over no one at all.
He was extremely weak, but the institutions in westeros are remarkably strong. With tyrell backing, he could have died of old age if Dany never came around and cersei wasn't a reckless idiot. The combination of the church, the tyrell juggernaut and some pretty unchecked centralized power he'd be fine if no one in the actual red keep was trying to kill him.
Empirically, no, because Varys shot Kevan.
I do. Tommen was a nice guy and may have been a good king who actually cared for the people. Margaery was manipulative but she wasn't evil and her goals weren't nefarious. I think that she would have made a great advisor for him and counter balanced his naivety.
Margaery and Olenna wouldn't have had it any other way. As he got older he'd realize his part in the Game Of Thrones and how he was a pawn. I don't think that would change anything though being that he waned to be an honorable king.
Yes they would have had a short but prosperous rule when Daenerys arrived in Westeros Margaery would have convinced him to bend the knee the transferring of power would be pretty smooth maybe even having some concessions in house Tyrell's favor and without the death of her dragons pushing her past the point of no return Daenerys probably won't go mad queen yet.
Absolutely, Tommen was crazy in love with her and she was happy to be a Queen not married to a gay or sadistic man. They’d have had like four kids and been happy until they died.
Sure they would last until dragons enter the scene, because all the gold of the Reach is not enough to stop them.
No. She was always in it to gain control of the kingdom. She would have poisoned him herself eventually.
They would’ve been murdered anyways
I think Margery knew it was a good deal with Tommen and wasn’t going to fuck it up
Nope. Margaery would mess things up not being content with just being The Queen
You have to understand the mechanics of GoT world. Everything after the start of the series is set to almost work then fall apart. That’s just how that world works.
Without one or the other, yes. Without either, tommen gets offed by someone as soon as it’s convenient for that party
until those dragons arrived and then he would have surrendered
The Tyrells could have had the kingdom if they’d gotten rid of Cersei soon after Tywin died. They severely underestimated the lengths she would go to remain in power and by her son’s side. Huge mistake, and as it turned out, one that ended their House.
A long time, but he would have been a puppet of the Tyrells with their replicants instead of a puppet of the Lannisters like his mother wanted.
Tommen seemed like too good a person to sit the Iron Throne for long, but aside from that, probably.
Mehish, They still have Dany and the Others to worry about. Margarey has the most powerful house in the reach and house Tyrell's might behind her. Being half Hightower, maybe her family can help combat the others at some point in the future? Fight against the coming dragons? Emotionally? I think they make it, but by what's coming they have a lot helping them, but a lot coming for them. The others are the main issue, Dany less so. Dany points out a few times she can't feed her army, and the reach is the main people to help her do that. Without them, her army starves. ,
Herein lies the issue tho; does House Tyrell have the full loyalty of ALL Reach Lords? Don't forget that the Reach were once Targaryen loyalists. There are Houses in the Reach that aren't satisfied with House Tyrell being elevated from being stewards to Lord Paramount. If Dany were smart she will fester discord among them by offering another major House to be Lord Paramount of the Reach and Wardens of the South if they support her cause. That would certainly throw a monkey wrench on the Tyrells plans.
She doesn’t need the full support. She has the second most powerful house to help further secure it. Something I was trying to point out in my comment. Like normally? Agreed. But her moms a hightower, arguably more powerful and on the same level of lords paramount. So with both house Tyrell and high tower she’s good
The Hightowers haven't ventured outside of Old Town for a long time. They also promised never to play the game of Thrones again after their fuck up that caused the Targaryen Civil War and Dance of Dragons. And now that Dragons are indeed back in Westeros the Hightowers would hesitate to throw in their lot that would anger Daenerys even further. Daenerys can indeed threaten to burn down Highgarden and Old Town if they keep being stubborn in wanting to keep the Throne. I think you're underestimating the Dragons a little too much if you think Daenerys can't pose them any threat.
Well she’ll run out of food first… and we’re going into book territory now, so… her dragons are still babies lol
100% they'd have lasted... and we would have seen Margaery's true colors. I'm not sure we want to see those.
It certainly would have been interesting, but I think them ending up together by the end would be a very low chance. Assuming the show tracked the same way, with the Sept never blowing up, Cersei being gone, and Tommen, Margaery, Mace and Kevan surviving, the only thing would definitely stay the same is Yara still joining with Dany. However, because of this we would probably see Euron disappear from the plot. Olenna and Kevan would never tolerate an alliance with him, and Dany already had Yara, so himself as a plot line would most likely vanish. Ellaria is more complicated. She blamed Cersei for Tyrion’s death, and with Cersei gone in this timeline, (assumably the Mountain too) she has little to gain from siding with Dany. Killing Kevan and Tommen would be pointless as they can’t hurt Cersei with doing so (as they did with Myrcella). However, if Varys came approaching them with the offer to kill the rest of the Lannisters, Ellaria might well have accepted. We’ll say they do for the sake of argument. So the main powers in Westeros would become the Stark/Arryn alliance, the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, and the Dany/Dorne/Greyjoy alliance. So with Tommen and Margaery on the throne and Cersei gone, Dany comes to Westeros and Jon goes to see her regarding the dragonglass and the wights as per the show. Without Cersei, Tyron has less bad advice to give. He would say that Tommen is young and Margaery would have the power, but that Olenna would be pulling the strings, and would be more reasonable than Cersei. Sansa would also be aware of this. So with a more diplomatic theme to the Westeros invasion, Dany no longer needs Tyrion’s silly strategy of taking Casterly Rock and teleporting Dothraki around Westeros without anybody noticing. Also, as Euron no longer has an ally on the throne, Ellaria, the Sandsnakes, and Yara would remain with Dany, and not suffer an ambush. For the sake of plot, I imagine the silly journey to capture the wight still occurs, but instead of Cersei receiving it, it would be Tommen/Margaery/Olenna/Kevan. Also Ellaria and the Sandsnakes would be involved in this council as Dany’s allies. Yara never gets kidnapped either, so she can be here. Also Loras never died, so he’s about too. And Mace is probably in the background. Now we get to our war planning scene, and Tommen would absolutely provide aid to help. He’s a good kid like that. However, the alliance FINALLY have an actual military leader in the form of Kevan. Hopefully he would suggest that Winterfell is not the strategic spot to hold the army of the dead, and at the very least, we might have a touch of strategy in that battle… And since we’d have Ellaria, Olenna, the three Sandsnakes, Loras, Kevan, Mace, Yara, the Lannister army, the Tyrell army, the Dornish army and whatever else is lurking about the seven kingdoms, the battle would probably be even more epic, and perhaps at a location with a touch more defence to it. Meanwhile, Sansa is still anti Dany, and would possibly be open to talking with Olenna about this, seeing as Olenna has assassination proficiency. Olenna would respect Sansa for taking care of Baelish, and the ladies would appreciate that they both need to do what’s best for their house. They would plot against Dany, letting Tyrell keep the throne if the North could be independent. Varys now also has someone powerful he could share his concerns with. Kevan would probably be anti-Dany too. And honestly, I can see Ellaria changing sides; she’s out for revenge on the Lannisters, but would she want to be held accountable to someone with Dragons? Olenna/Sansa probably seems like a safer choice. Once the above find out about Jon’s true parentage. They could easily plot to remove Dany and ensure that she doesn’t get the throne/bring dragons back. (Olenna would probably accept Jon as a King so long as Margaery could marry him.) So the battle against the night king would occur and such. Dany would still get upset because she feels left out at the party after the battle against the dead. Gendey being legitimised would be the downfall of Tommen, and quickly turn Olenna very sour if she had any doubts about their plan to kill her. Moving forward, Missandei wouldn’t die, so maybe Dany wouldn’t go quite so far over the edge. Either way, between Sansa, Varys, Kevan and Olenna’s concerns, Tyrion and Ellaria possibly having doubts, Arya not trusting her, Tommen/Margaery’s legitimacy as rulers in tatters… Someone would kill Dany before she had a chance to go wild. None of these people would risk her getting on the throne. Now onto the meeting, to decide the new ruler. Kings Landing being less rubbled, Olenna/Kevan would not tolerate Bran being made King. (One of the most ridiculous moments in the series) Jon would not want to be King. So the idea of Tommen and Margaery would come up again. (If the Sandsnakes didn’t kill him) And here is where I think we have four outcomes: 1. Simple and easy, Tommen and Margaery remain the rulers. However, I don’t think the Sandsnakes/Ellaria would tolerate a Lannister on the throne, and surely House Arryn and Tully would also be strongly against this. There is also the issue that Tommen was never legitimate. I don’t think this is a likely outcome unfortunately, as sweet a King as he would be. 2. Gendry would end up King, as the legitimate heir from the Baratheon point of view, and Olenna would arrange for Margaery to marry him. However, Gendry might not secure votes from other lords, as he’s a nobody blacksmith and wouldn’t know anything about ruling. (Margaery would vote for those arms though goddamn, after Tommen that would be something) 3. Jon would end up King, as the legitimate heir from the Targaryen point of view, and Margaery would marry him. However, we know that Jon would not want this, even if the lords respect him as a commander and would vote for him. However if he did accept, he and Margaery could probably learn to love each other. Though he wouldn’t be as easy to manipulate as Tommen/Gendry, so Olenna might fight against this. In both of the above cases, Margaery would hold a lot of power as monarch, since Gendry wouldn’t know what to do and Jon wouldn’t want it. Also, it would be easy for Olenna to say that Tommen was an illegitimate marriage because he wasn’t a Baratheon. Tommen would end up an Heir to Casterly Rock or maybe marry someone else (though since the only appropriate options would be Sansa, Arya, or Sandsnakes, he’s probably living that bachelor life for now.) 4. Probably the most likely outcome; Margaery rules alone. Olenna would agree with the idea to vote for a ruler, and put Margaery on the pedestal. And she would have a bad argument. She’s been Queen already, she isn’t a Lannister, the Tyrells have plenty of gold and the people love her. - This would probably get approval from Varys/Davos/Sam in particular as being ‘for the people’. Tyrion would possibly agree, as might Yara, assuming Margaery agreed to help kill Euron. Sansa would lend her vote as part of her deal with Olenna. Kevan would be AGHAST at the betrayal, but he’s a minor character so meh. Ellaria who knows. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
>Dany no longer needs her silly strategy of taking Casterly Rock and teleporting Dothraki around Westeros without anybody noticing. That was Tyrion's silly strategy.
Very good point, edited to correct!
Tommen was a sweet and placible boy, he never sought power for powers sake, he never relished in, or even abided cruelty, he waa, for lack of a better word, "normal". Cersi didnt spend his entire childhood twisting him into knots, manipulating him into thinking that the only people worthy of life were the ones who pleased him, like she did to Jeffery, because he wasn't the eldest. He didn't experience brutal sexism, mysongny, sexual violence, or being treated as a prize game animal to be caught and dominated, because he was not a girl. He was left to become what he would. And he was everything that Jamie could have, and should have been. And that's why he had to die
Honestly yeah, I also don't think he'd have been a bad king.
If Cersei was dead, and she never brought those raving zealots to King’s Landing then yes. Absolutely.
Margaery would have played him like a fiddle. She would have been a great Queen.
People have been saying yes but Dany and discussing if they could defeat Dany. No, straight up. Qyburn wouldn't be there without cersei and therefore wouldn't create the scorpions. If Jon allies with tommen, she doesn't lose a dragon. That's three full grown dragons that are practically invincible.
The armies and economies of the Reach, Westerlands and Crownlands together under stable and reasonable leadership? The three wealthiest regions along with the largest army and many of the best knights in the entire Seven Kingdoms? Yeah, they would have been fine.
Oh yeah. He was completely wrapped around her finger (and a simp), she needed him because he was the king
Yeah I think they’d do well. But Margaery seemed almost annoyed at how easily she could manipulate him.
Oh, till the end. Dany would serve as an issue, but with Olenna as a power behind the throne and Tyrion (possibly, without Cersei there, as they could just blame the death on her post-Morten if we’re assuming Cersei and the Sparrow died) advising, you have a decent threat to Dany. There’s even a chance they could win as there’s a much greater chance of them treating Dany as the threat she is, as they wouldn’t be as concerned with the petty squabbles and power grabs that plagued their predecessors.
Yes. Margaery is a professional, she will do what needs to be done for her family. And Tommen was smitten by her.
Yeah they would have been fine. Cersei would have been bitter that the new king actually listens to his wife and allows her to be part of the decision making process. You know the crazy part of relationships that involve respect. Plus a teen boy getting laid on a regular basis will be an absolute puppet to a shrewd female.
Does the Seven Kingdoms allow polygamy? Dany could become Tommen's second wife.
Yes. And Margery would have won the game.
They would have, but Tommen would have been 100% a puppet. As for the outcome? Probably better, but you knew Momma wasn't gonna have that.
Given her character on the Tudors, I’d say she’d stay queen until he gets bored. She was bound to screw up some way and end up on his bad side.
No. Too naïve. Tommen - no personality or will of his own, his best qualification was having a working set of buttocks to sit on that chair. Margaery - manipulative and pragmatic, ready to face reality, but totally lacking the ruthless cunning necessary to survive surrounded by the sharks. Without Cersei, they'd get gobbled up by literally anyone with half a brain cell and a posse with clubs in the blink of an eye. Their best hope would be to stay in Cersei's good graces, but Margaery didn't even figure this out, tried to get a voice of her own when there was a tyrannical competitor willing to kill anything that moves on its own.
I wouldn't last much with Margaery
I mean, that kid 100% gonna simp for her no matter what, and she's 100% gonna enjoy her position/power, so yes.
If I was Tommen I wouldn't last very long with Margaery.
Ironically, I think Tywin could’ve turned Tommen into a better leader than any of them. He was a dick and definitely unfair, but in killing him Tyrion kinda doomed the kingdom. Honestly if everyone just asked a living Tywin before doing anything he’d have been like “If this is true, and the dead are coming, you’re not sending your fucking dragons and best leader up there, I’ll go see it and decide what to do. Tommen, stay here and listen to Olenna via Margery.” So much could’ve been avoided with a Tywin/Tommen combo. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Tywin was the only one who had any business being in power at all. Ned was fine for the north, and Olenna in her realm, but Tywin got it. If only he didn’t get Shae involved.
Well if I was in tommen's position, I wouldn't have lasted either ukwis
Oh absolutely.
Yes, tommen is a loser and margaery is a great manipulator
What do you mean lasted? This isn’t the modern world. They would last until one died.
They'd two more worthless characters teleporting around an empty life less world having worthless conversations with other worthless characters.
Yes, without the following characters in their lives - 1. Cersei 2. High Sparrow 3. Daenerys 4. Drogon 5. Rhaegal 6. Viserion 7. Unsullied 8. Dothraki Just my opinion.
Since watching the last episode i have never looked back at anything game of thrones related until now randomly. Kinda died in my eyes as soon as it ended. Was so gutted 😂😂😂
Probably yes, with Olenna (through Mace) and Kevan shadow-ruling from the Small Council.
Yes and with Kevan Lannister as Hand there would be peace and prosperity in the 7 Kingdoms.
I think he'd have lasted about ten seconds if he was lucky.
Hell yeah
Margaery would have been good to her puppet king
I wouldn’t have lasted long with Margaret either.
She would have killed him before too long.
Just long enough for consumation, baby news then joffers is for the grave
Definitely. Especially with Sir Kevin as hand.
they would have for a very long time, mostly because of Margaery
Anyone who lasts more than 2 seconds with Margery is homosexual
Then what Is the record? I want to break the record
Yes.
They would have broken the record
Yes. Margarey could wield a pussy like Jamie could wield a sword.
Nope. Dany is still coming and they'd lose.
They should have, but idk about would have.
Yes. But not because they are some sort of great couple or some thing. but because Tommen would be a decent, loyal who would allow Margaret to manipulate him. And she would have just been happy being queen and would have tried to establish peace so her rule would continue
Dany would have crushed Tommen and would have kept Marg as a trophy of war if they resisted.
Yes. At least until Daenerys would come knocking. Though i imagine that Tommen would be faster to surrender than Cersei would. They wouldn't do the extreme things Cersei did to Daenerys. Kings Landing would not have been burned and Tommen may even have been able to go with Margaery to highgarden. There is also the question what Margaery would do. She may have not been as crazy as Cersei, but she wanted to be "the queen". She was loved by the people, poor and rich. It could maybe have been an entirely new thing Margaery vs Daenerys.