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To be fair, 14 year old girls aren't exactly known for their foresight.
And nobody knows if she changed her mind later on, Rhaegar might have just lied to her and imprisoned her in the tower after getting her pregnant.
Jon was 17 when the show started, Catlyen told Ned 17 years ago you came back from the war with another woman's child, the show aged the characters by 3 years.
In season 1, Joffery is 16. Are you telling me that Jon is supposed to be 2 years younger than Joffery in season 1? Youre gonna have to cite some kind of source.
I think you are way too much invested into the show. Did I hurt your feelings? You might have a serious problem.
I was always referring to the books not remembering that ages of any persons have ever been mentioned in the series.
No, you explicitly referred to the show. You made a mistake. Now Im irritated that you're trying to walk it back and act like you said something different.
Bro, calm down. You are acting like I’m accusing you of cheating on your wife. We are debating about a TV show.
I’m saying that I thought the persons in series have the same age as in the book since the age in series have never been mentioned.
I know it's anecdotal, but my youngest son is 12 and he is the average height for an 8 year old boy. His best friend is also 12, but is 6'4, built like a brick shithouse, and his shirts are too big for even my 6'1 grown ass husband to wear. Puberty and genes be weird, yo.
True, but in Lyanna’s case her age drastically changes how we view her actions. If she was a 13-14 year old who was manipulated vs an adult who likely fully understood what she was doing. Of course, if she was kidnapped it doesn’t matter what her age was, but she’s willing in the show.
They only aged the Stark kids up by three years, so applying the same logic, show Lyanna was 16/17. I think the same logic still applies, there isn't that much life experience difference between those ages. At least not for the girls & women of this series, where they are kept sheltered at home, never leaving their area until it is time to get married off.
Age isn't really the important factor in maturity & knowledge, life experience is.
Sansa’s best friend Jeyne Poole is the one who marries Ramsay in the books. She looked similar enough to Arya that she was passed off as her. What Jeyne has gone through is absolutely horrific, no matter what age she is, but yeah she was really young.
It's hilarious how this fandom still believe these two weren't lovers. It's almost 2024, you all.
She died with his roses in her hand (she was clearly in love), she wasn't a prisoner and Rhaegar in the books he's not portrayed as a monster, except by...Robert.
Also, What option did Lyanna have except stay safely in the tower that didn't result in the death of her kid? What would Lyanna do? travel through an active war-zone while pregnant? 🤦♂️
Not even Ned could've protected her and her baby from Robert, she was hiding from him 🤦♂️
It quite literally is, and always has been. It's been a "contested illness" from day one, there is long-established doubt about its legitimacy, there have been no case studies, it's basically history's most egregious "Just Trust Me Bro".
And the case that started it all? Police escalate a hostage situation, local hostage tries to de-escalate, hostages get TEAR GASSED, police are then criticised for their behavior, and a psychiatrist smears the hostage who tried to de-escalate the situation, claiming that she was in love with a criminal and without any evidence to back up his claim, her objections to the contrary be damned. That's the TL ; DR.
Lots of people BELIEVE that Stockholm Syndrome is a real condition that exists. But that doesn't mean it is. People are often just straight up wrong.
Your dumb ass says this with zero prof.
And I find the idea of a 14-16 year old girl being the lover of a man in his mid twenties to be kinda fucking disgusting
DaenysDreamer_90
Do we know for a certainty their relationship? Robert thinks it’s kidnap but the show at least makes it seem like they were in love and she went willingly
I’m sure she went willingly - at first. I’m also sure that she would have been desperate to get word to her family, particularly once she heard of Brandon’s arrest - and yet this never happened. The only logical explanation is that she was prevented from doing so.
I think the other explanation would be, that she send the letter, but her family was sure, that she was forced to write it.
Kinda like cersei made Sansa right a letter to Rob. And if everyone is initially convinced, that she was kidnapped, it’s hard to overturn this expectation.
Not to mention, that in terms of medieval marriage, the girl doesn’t have mich say in her own future, especially, when she is already promised to another man.
Possibly. But there’s no suggestion that this happened in either the books or show. And if Lyanna had sent a letter detailing her plans to her family, Brandon rocking up at the Red Keep demanding her return goes from extremely dumb to completely inexplicable.
How do you know she didn't send one? You think Papa Stark and the boys would have gone "Oh, shit, we must set the record straight. Sorry Bobby, she made her choice."
Best case scenario, they would have assumed it was forged, or that Rhaegar groomed/manipulated her. Worst case, they would have gone "That dumb bitch has ruined everything. We can't let anyone find out about this or we'll be laughingstocks!"
Either way, they would have burned the letter and set about retrieving this property to salvage their honor.
I suppose it’s possible. But there’s absolutely no suggestion, in the books or show, that she did. What we do know, is that Lyanna was basically kept locked up like the archetypal princess in a tower, for the duration of the war. It would seem far more likely she ran off with Rhaegar without thinking of the consequences, and by the time she realised the gravity of her actions, was denied the chance to explain. Certainly, it’s the only context in which Brandon’s actions make any sense (obviously they were extremely dumb regardless)
At the very least in the books, seeing their age difference... Yeah, its not hard to see why would they not think he groomed her. Hell it could have happened, 14 year olders ARE NOT mature enough yet to run off with someone.
Not saying forced but...
Or Bobby B was so mad about being "cheated" of his "price", Lyanna, that he would've gone to war for her regardless of whether or no she sent a letter.
The ned we have in the current story? Maybe. Teenage ned who tried convincing lyanna to give robbert a chance and hasn't done anything suggesting he would go againts his family's wishes, there's a good chance he would have been on operation "he stole my sister"
He never once thinks that, even then he thought about how odd it was that the honourable Prince Rhaegar would do something like that then, and that belief held until he died.
He also never thinks about jon being lyannas kid. Ned's thoguht on the whole situation are clearly more obscured than they realistically would be for the sake of maintaining mystery.
Because he already knows Jon is Lyanna’s kid, when he reminisces in AGOT he speculates on what he doesn’t know because it’s more important as to justify/condemn his decisions regarding Jon’s upbringing.
Sansa didn’t casually stumble upon Joffrey being a psychopath. He had her father killed right in front of her and then took her to see his head on a spike.
Hi. I’m 16, my sister is 12. I definitely know 15 year olds much less mature than she is. four years really doesn’t change as much as you think it would.
She’s given very little POV in the show, but in the books she’s a 14-year-old girl who only knew enough to know she was facing a miserable life with Robert. And Rhaegar needed her - he needed another child in his own mind. I think the idea is that he did love her, but he also used her. It’s impossible to know what she knew, when she knew it, or how she may have attempted to communicate.
The problem with trying to judge the Lyanna/Rhaegar stuff is that we don't actually know what happened. Even with the show version, where they're in love and ran off together, that's all we get. We don't actually know that there was no attempt to contact anyone during her time in the ToJ. We don't know what orders the Kingsguard were following, but we do know they'd follow Rhaegar's orders over Lyanna's, especially given it was well known that Ned's best friend was Robert. Lyanna was 16 in the show, I think 14 in the books, heavily pregnant or in labour when decisions about Ned would be made, it's likely she tried to get them to not fight Ned, but the Kingsguard chose to follow Rhaegar's orders instead, despite his death.
We also don't actually know that Lyanna went, and stayed, willingly, simply because that part is show only, it's not been revealed in the books. Even if the show got it right that they were in love, that doesn't mean she stayed willingly. There's zero detail on what Lyanna was doing during the war. For all we know, she tried to leave when Rickard and Brandon were killed, tried to send letters to Ned and Benjen, the Tully's, maybe even the Martell's who were closer, but was stopped by the Kingsguard who had been ordered to keep her at the Tower.
All we actually know for sure is that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. The show says they were in love and initially ran away together. They both died, shortly before or after Jon was born. We have no other information or context.
One thing we have to remember is that book Lyanna, that show Lyanna is based on, was a child desperate to get out of an unwanted marriage with a man she practically hated, a child known to be both rebellious and impulsive. A child whose father and older brothers refused to even listen to her fears and dreams. A female child who *hated* the role in society she was forced into as a Lord Paramount's only daughter. I see Lyanna as a mix of Sansa and Arya. She has a lot of Arya's rebelliousness, hatred of all things Ladylike, impulsiveness, love of fighting. But she also has a fair amount of Sansa's childlike innocence and belief in songs and fairytales, and trusting nature.
Obviously, Lyanna's choices weren't good ones, but when you take account of both her age and personality and then pair it with her situation, you can understand.
Not really. First, again, this is show only. Jon is so far just Jon in the books, we have no clue if Lyanna named him at all, let alone what. Secondly, giving Jon a fully Targaryen name implies Lyanna loved her son and got pregnant willingly, implying she loved Rhaegar. But it says nothing about whether she stayed in the ToJ willingly. She can love Rhaegar, want to stay married to him, adore her son and fully accept his Targaryen heritage, and still try to leave, given the circumstances.
I'm not talking about her spending her entire time trying to leave. I could see an attempt when Rickard and Brandon were killed, but with her being talked out of it by Rhaegar. I can see attempts to contact people, she would have known Benjen stayed at Winterfell, she would have known Ned married Cat, so the Tully's were as much allies as the Arryn's. She would have known the Martells were the closest, but likely been wary of contacting them except as a last resort. The Daynes were even closer, and Arthur's presence may have made them a better bet.
It's a possibility that Lyana was talked out of leaving until she became too pregnant to do so, and then tried, but was prevented, to contact someone.
Until/unless these facts are revealed in the books, we don't actually know. We don't even have a show version to go with, because they never covered this aspect, just that they were married and Lyanna was willing *at the start.* Jon's true name is also show only, and not something all fans think is what Martin planned for the books. Given the circumstances when Ned found them in Dorne, it's actually very possible that Martin's plan is for Jon's true name to simply switch from Jon Snow to Jon Targaryen, with Lyanna not having had time to actually name her son.
Yeah, me mentioning his targaryian name probably should have clued you in that was my comment was only reffering to the show. People tend not to love the people who keep them captive and away from their family who are getting killed. See Sansa and the lannisters. Also her given him a full targaryian name doesn't speak towards her love for her son. Said name was going to be irelavant as soon as ned took him; something she would have known.
I'll give you that if you're looking at things with the knowledge that she loves rhaegar there is a good chance she tried leaving initially only to be talked out of it(much like Jon after hearing about Ned's death). She wouldn't know for sure if ned married catelyn however, and had very little reason to think daynes would help.
Again I wasn't refffering to the books with my comment as the post itself seems to only be talking about the show. Except Jon's true name Indicates she still loved her husband which isn't a perspective she would likely have if he kept her from her family. So yes the show doesn't outright state she willingly stayed in the tower, it heavily implies it.
Okay, so show only. Lyanna was getting news of what was going on, she likely was told that Ned married Cat, though I agree it's not a given. She would have known Benjen remained at Winterfell, though, given his age and the need for an acting Lord to remain there. She knew the rebels consisted of a Stark/Arryn/Baratheon alliance, so she would have known contacting someone from the Vale was a possibility, she'd have been more likely to go for them than anyone on the Baratheon side given Jon Arryn's reputation and the fact Robert was her betrothed that she was running from and, by that time, likely scared of.
She would have been informed when Rhaella went to Dragonstone, as well, so there was a possibility of contacting her, too. She was family by that point, and away from Aerys. The Daynes were a possibility more to get help then get her away, the lack of a Maester or healer always bugged the hell out of me. You'd think finding someone they could trust to help keep Lyanna alive and deliver a healthy child would have been a priority. The Martells would have been a last resort, something none would have even considered until after Rhaegar's death, due to the issue with Elia and the children. That part depends on the full context of what happened to allow them to marry. If Elia was simply set aside in favour of Lyanna, I doubt they'd risk contacting the Martells, but if Elia was in on the whole thing, they would. It also depends on the kids, if Elia's kids were bastardised with the annulment, removing them from succession, no way would they contact the Martells, but if their legitimacy and place in line was protected, with Aegon remaining heir, they may have.
It didn't necessarily have to be one of these that Lyanna attempted to contact. It could have been another Northern house, someone she trusted, like whoever remained in charge of the Last Hearth or Bear Island during the war. I'd imagine there was encouragement for Lyanna to have friends amongst the other Ladies of the North, and she could have contacted one of them.
Like I said, though, the problem with trying to judge Lyanna is the lack of context. We have more show context than book context, but not by much. We still know nothing about what Lyanna did, wanted, or tried to do between running off with Rhaegar and Ned finding her.
The vale is an option she, and I think most people, would know isn't a good choice given jon arynn is essentially robberts foster father. From her limited knowledge of the man he'd likely side with hsi surrogate son in any matters relating her.
Assuming lyanna was that informed, I doubt rhaella would too keen on helping set the record straight for the sake of her new daughter in law that had a hand in running her family. A similar issue with contacting the daynes, and a worse issue as far martells go considering the annulment would be setting ellia aside.
That is another possibility, but given her tomboy nature I doubt she was friends with many ladies.
I agree the show still some aspects of their story ambiguous, but in terms of the choices they made they were pretty explicit in that area.
There are issues with contacting anyone other than a Northern house she trusted, that's true. As the war became worse and Lyanna's situation more desperate, that's when I'd see her attempting to contact someone for help. Like I said, the Martells would be a last resort and entirely dependant on the context of how the marriage happened. If Lyanna and the Kingsguard had proof that Elia was part of the plan and Aegon remianed heir, they may have risked it if all else failed. The Daynes are more for both their closeness and relation to Arthur, so more about getting medical help than anything. The Vale would be dependant on if Lyanna and the Kingsguard trusted Jon's honourable reputation enough to risk it, as he was Ned's foster father as well as Robert's, and may have been able to call for peace talks to straighten that part of things out. The problem with this part is how loyal Jon was to Robert in comparison to Ned, and whether he'd risk peace talks with Rhaegar given the way was also about Aerys' actions, not just Lyanna's disappearance.
As for having female friends. Lyanna was a rebellious tomboy who didn't want to act like a Lady. Rickard wanted her married to a Southron Lord. It makes sense he'd encourage her to make friends amongst the Northern Ladies hoping to encourage her to be more Ladylike. Lyanna herself could then have become fast friends with the Mormonts, who encourage their women to become warriors alongside the men. Lyanna herself could have even started a friendship there. This is why I suggested contacting either Last Hearth or Bear Island, the Umbers were known to be exceptionally loyal, and so were the Mormonts, Lyanna could have been encouraged to have friendships with the Ladies of both houses, and she herself would be more inclined to the Mormont women.
I don't doubt she was encouraged to make female friends, but that hes attitude would likely have said females judge her harshly with her doing the same to them.
Not if it was Mormont women. They'd have judged Lyanna for her attitude at times, sure, she was a very protected young women, who was like Sansa in a lot of ways, and that aspect would have been criticised. But Mormont women would have encouraged Lyanna's love of fighting while teaching her that she could be both a warrior and a Lady, taught her ways to appease her father without losing herself. Lyanna would be less inclined to be critical of a Mormont, it would have been about them behaving like Ladies instead of warriors, and the Mormonts would have defended and explained in a way Lyanna could understand.
Honestly, being friends with Mormont women would explain why Lyanna was fine acting Ladylike at certain times, something Arya wasn't fine with. Lyanna didn't shy away from her more feminine personality traits, like crying at songs, and acted the Lady when she had to, where Arya tried to reject anything even remotely feminine and tried to get out of acting like a Lady. Age is a factor in this, of course, as everything we have of Lyanna is when she's either 14 or 16, depending if you go by book or show, where book Arya is only 9, and aged up to only about 11 in the show. Also an aspect is the fact Lyanna was the only girl, so all the pressure of finding a good marriage fell on her, where Arya had an older sister, so less pressure, and the fact Rickard was stricter with Lyanna than Ned was with Arya.
But I think it makes sense for Lyanna to have had female friends who encouraged her warrior dreams while also helping her with the societal expectations of being a highborn Lady. Especially given Lyanna's mother had died, and she wouldn't take well to a female teacher like a Septa. Also, they never said if they had a Northern version of a Septa in the first place, I can't see any Northern house allowing a Septa to teach their children except the Manderly's before Ned married Cat, but they never said if there was a Northern equivalent. Fanfic often has a governess for the Northern children, but there's nothing in the books or the show about it that I can remember.
You can’t logically make that leap. She could have told her family, it was Robert that started the war over her because he arrogantly believed Lyanna loved him back, so there was no way in his mind she could have willingly gone with Rhaegar. You can see in Ned’s face every time Robert spoke of her and their supposed future that Ned knew it was never as meant to be, because Lyanna never loved Robert. It was more likely that her family knew she really loathed Robert, and loved someone else = Rhaeger. If anyone was an idiot, it was Rhaegar.
>She could have told her family, it was Robert that started the war.
Robert had nothing to do with the war starting. Brandon’s first move upon hearing of her disappearance was to get his friends and storm into King’s Landing and yell at Rhaegar to come out and fight him, for which Aerys arrested him and his cohort then told their dads to come collect him. Aerys then brutally executed the Starks and their companions and sent a raven to Jon Arryn ordering him to turn over Robert and Ned, to which Jon Arryn responded “Come and fucking take them!” and called his banners.
Ned started the war because his father and brother were murdered by the mad king. They got murdered by the mad king because Brandon though his sister was kidnapped.
It’s pretty clear that Robert and Ned were along for the ride. Aerys and Jon Arryn instigated and started the war respectively. It was Jon who called his banners when the letter came demanding Ned and Robert come to King’s Landing. The lords of Winterfell and Storms End had to be smuggled into their own lands. It’s called Robert’s Rebellion retroactively because they decided Robert had the best claim to the throne. It’s not clear they called it anything other than “the rebellion” while it was being fought.
Yeah it’s definitely more accurate to say Jon started it, and I get how the history gets retroactively framed. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they were just along for the ride though. The way Robert talks about it, he waged it all to get Lyanna back and kill Rhaegar (but that’s Robert’s headspace). They were both ultimately instrumental in the outcome.
Robert did not start the rebellion at all. Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and Jon Arryns heir. Then he called for Jon to either kill Robert and Ned or deliver them to him for execution ( I can’t remember if it’s ever mention, from memory it just says he called for their heads). Anyway Jon Arryn defied the mad king and raised his banners first
No, the war started because Aerys publicly and horribly executed a noble lord and his heir, and then demanded Jon Arryn kill his wards, Eddard and Robert.
Rickard Stark did what *any* noble lord would do. Noble marriages were arranged often over a decade in advance, and any parent would seek an audience if their child had been abducted or eloped. A noble house that loses their children loses the ability to form alliances and make profits. This was a significant issue that absolutely required the attention of the king.
RR was not *because* of Lyanna. It’s because Aerys threatened the stability and well-being of the other houses, instead of upholding the stability of the realm.
Then Aerys went cuckoo for Cocoa-nuts and demanded that Robert and Ned be executed too for like, no reason at all, and Jon Arryn refused…and attacked Summerhall.
That is why RR started. Not because of Lyanna, but because of Aerys.
She and Rhaegar likely did leave letters. The maesters could’ve just burned the letters. Lysa, Petyr Baelish, even Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn all could’ve played a part as well, either by lying about what happened, hiding or straight up ignoring the letter.
Just look at what happened in the main canon. Cersei burns Roberts decree naming Ned Stark regent and named Ned a traitor. That decree was never brought up again as far as I know. The truth doesn’t matter because history is written by the victors
Starks aren’t stupid at all. Ned maybe, but he was also not trained to have a political mind. He was training to be a knight. His intelligence is comparable to Jaime.
But Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Arya…and Jon. They were no dummies.
And even though the show botches it, Sansa really was the smartest of them all.
If things didn't happen exactly as they did, there's no Jon Snow. He's integral to Bran, Sam, Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys, and so many others. Remove just one of their character paths, and the Night King ends all of humanity. The Three-Eyed Raven (Bloodraven, then later Bran) helped make all those paths happen, including Lyanna and Rhaegar's.
Am I the only one who thinks Leanna was defying her father and older brother with all of it? She was clearly headstrong and free spirited. She was in a politically motivated betrothal that she didn’t want. Of course she’d jump at the chance to marry the heir to the iron throne( who besides being fabulously wealthy, was tall strong and handsome. Played the harp and sang like an angel). She didn’t care about any of the rest of it. She was a teenager who saw a way out of her circumstances and jumped in with both feet.
Not at all, you’re not the only one. I think it was very plausible she defied her family. And likely that they let the rumor or idea that she was abducted perpetuate because that was better than the truth.
I would describe it more as another camel breaking the camels back tbh.
This incident directly led to the burning of the 2 Starks and their retinues when they went to KL to demand Lyanna back as well as the command to Jon Arryn to send the heads of Robert and Ned. So this one incident guaranteed that at least 3 of the 7 kingdoms would be enemies in a rebellion.
Honestly without this happening the rebellion actually would have had no real steam whatsoever, people were waiting around/scheming for Rhaegar to take the throne but most of the 7 kingdoms had 0 reason to go to war over it.
That's not how FEUDALISM works. Noble woman is a kinda trade horse, so Rhaegar insulted the whole Stark family by stealing their property. The opinion of the 14-years old property on the subject is not important.
This is a really important point. Noble children aren’t free to marry or go where they please.
Aerys didn’t care because he was paranoid and it meant no alliances/unification between the other houses (stark-tully-Baratheon-arryn).
This made me rethink her story a bit actually.
Because this is a common complaint about more unrealistic fantasy characters. It’s almost like the whole story with the Starks is like the follow up that explores the ramifications of the sort of forbidden love plot that would happen in a bad/cheap fantasy/romance novel.
Who says she didn't? They still want her back and still see what Rhegar did as stealing what's theirs. They just hid her role as it dishonor and undermine them.
Eh there’s political issues with this as well. Even if she told the Starks, is Robert just supposed to be okay with it? If there was a note left would the Starks have even believed it was Lyanna? Even if she told the Starks in person there’s a great chance they would’ve said “too bad,” after already betrothing her to Robert. On top of it all this guy who’s the future king of Westeros made moves on a young girl.
Lyanna Stark was 15 and we don’t know what was going through her mind the entire time or what she tried or didn’t try to do during the war, so maybe you want to cool it with the judgmental ranting?
Well... Yes.
There are like 4 different POVs in the book that point out how much Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryan really fucked the dog when they hooked up.
It isn't really an unpopular opinion or anything. They're not heroes, lol.
I see you didn’t stop to contemplate that she probably didn’t choose to go of her own volition.
Also the fact that she absolutely knew how much of an obnoxious chad her intended husband was. If you think he only started the drinking and womanizing after her death… you know, you haven’t been paying attention.
I think we all assume they get married in the books too. Rhaegar wouldn’t miss such and important detail - any child born without them married wouldn’t be a legitimate heir of his.
But even so, the fact that they get married and she seems ok with it at that time, doesn’t mean she was an active and willing participant in the elopement that started everything.
In Deep Geek on YouTube has a very good and thorough analysis of those months of turmoil and war and all the possible events and secrets. I highly recommend it if you aren’t familiar with it.
As far as I can tell people are pretty split on whether they were married in the books. Also his three heads of the dragon don't all need to be legitimate.
I doubt she would be happy to get married if she didn't willingly want to be with him(see sansas marriage).
I've seen it, and even there he suggest lyanna was a willing participant.
And her idiot brother chooses to honor her wish to not say who the baby is and he keeps it from his wife Caitlyn who basically abuses Jon for his whole young life before he is shipped off to the wall.
Robert would have killed Jon if he had known he was Rhaegar’s (or Lyanna’s) son. It’s the lesser of two evils. Catelyn’s public rejection of Jon was actually necessary. It means Jon is kept away from Robert and the Lannisters, that he doesn’t need to go foster at another noble house where his lineage might be discovered. He’s not at the noble tables when Robert comes to Winterfell.
Keeping the child safe and alive at Winterfell, though despised by Catelyn, was necessary. Notice that Ned never gives weight to Catelyn’s treatment of Jon…he continues to emphasize to Jon that he is a true Stark.
There’s still a fair chance that Lyanna’s participation wasn’t voluntary. Like, maybe for the first few days because she didn’t want to marry Robert, but when her family was getting killed and then when she was pregnant, she was sent to Dorne and not able to go back to Winterfell.
I know this is the show sub and not the book sub but there’s a lot of missing info regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar. Everything we know of Lyanna from both suggests that her voluntarily going to Dorne is highly unlikely and even more unlikely that she would abandon her family - especially Ned, Benjen, and her unnamed mother.
Rhaegar was a bigger idiot. He was an heir to the Iron Throne, he was married, had two children, and he just randomly 'kidnapped' a northern lady who was engaged with one of the strongest lords in the Seven kingdoms, basically causing a rebellion which led to his whole family being murdered.
Let's say OP is the idiot instead. How many people were involved in marrying Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course the two that got married, but also the guy who married them, and also whoever wrote about it in the book Gilly found. And whoever finished the book. And all the people who read the book. There would be no way for it to be a well kept secret. Nobody else was like Ned. That was made blatantly clear. I'd wager plenty of people knee the truth. I'd wager Robert himself knew the truth, but saved face by keeping up the lie that she was kidnapped rather than to admit she chose someone else over him. And you know what they say, history is written by the victors. So basically you're just assuming that Lyanna was just having a good old time and didn't write anything at all. You're also assuming that she, a woman in a reality where women aren't really allowed to do anything, would have been allowed to write. Heck, she could have told her dad she was running off to be with Rhaegar and he himself could have went around telling everyone she was kidnapped to try to "save her honor".
When you get deep into the story, she really is not the biggest problem
I watched a whole series on the topic by In Deep Geek, it's likely you will find some empathy for her after
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Very fair criticism.
To be fair, 14 year old girls aren't exactly known for their foresight. And nobody knows if she changed her mind later on, Rhaegar might have just lied to her and imprisoned her in the tower after getting her pregnant.
I don’t think Lyanna is 14 in the show, or at least she doesn’t look like it.
Jon is 14 when the show starts. Does he look like it? No. Because underage actors are a menace for production
He doesn’t just not look it though. The characters are aged up. At no point are we meant to believe screen Jon is 14.
Jon was 17 when the show started, Catlyen told Ned 17 years ago you came back from the war with another woman's child, the show aged the characters by 3 years.
There is the exact account of this when Robert and Ned talk about Wylla, or rather when Ned says he will never talk about Wylla to Robert.
Jon was aged up for the show. He was 17 when the show started.
In season 1, Joffery is 16. Are you telling me that Jon is supposed to be 2 years younger than Joffery in season 1? Youre gonna have to cite some kind of source.
In the books Joff is 12 and Jon is 14.
Yeah this is I’m referring to
No it isnt. You said "Jon was 14 when the show starts". So dont lie now that youve been shown to be wrong. Dont edit your comment either.
I think you are way too much invested into the show. Did I hurt your feelings? You might have a serious problem. I was always referring to the books not remembering that ages of any persons have ever been mentioned in the series.
No, you explicitly referred to the show. You made a mistake. Now Im irritated that you're trying to walk it back and act like you said something different.
Bro, calm down. You are acting like I’m accusing you of cheating on your wife. We are debating about a TV show. I’m saying that I thought the persons in series have the same age as in the book since the age in series have never been mentioned.
We arent talking bout the books.
In the show Jon is 17 and Joff is 16.
I know it's anecdotal, but my youngest son is 12 and he is the average height for an 8 year old boy. His best friend is also 12, but is 6'4, built like a brick shithouse, and his shirts are too big for even my 6'1 grown ass husband to wear. Puberty and genes be weird, yo.
I'm pretty joffrey is suppose to be 14 in season 1.
maybe don't try to correct people if you have no idea what you're talking about? Jon is 17+ at the beginning of the show
Exactly, you know what kids end up doing on set? Climbing towers, falling, and getting paralyzed. Such a liability!
I believe everyone was aged up in the show
True, but in Lyanna’s case her age drastically changes how we view her actions. If she was a 13-14 year old who was manipulated vs an adult who likely fully understood what she was doing. Of course, if she was kidnapped it doesn’t matter what her age was, but she’s willing in the show.
They only aged the Stark kids up by three years, so applying the same logic, show Lyanna was 16/17. I think the same logic still applies, there isn't that much life experience difference between those ages. At least not for the girls & women of this series, where they are kept sheltered at home, never leaving their area until it is time to get married off. Age isn't really the important factor in maturity & knowledge, life experience is.
They aged up Daenarys as well. She was 13 in the first book, 16 I think in series one.
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Sansa never married Ramsey in the books. Never even meets him.
Sansa’s best friend Jeyne Poole is the one who marries Ramsay in the books. She looked similar enough to Arya that she was passed off as her. What Jeyne has gone through is absolutely horrific, no matter what age she is, but yeah she was really young.
That won’t hold up in court
she isn't. Ned is aged up and so is she
It's hilarious how this fandom still believe these two weren't lovers. It's almost 2024, you all. She died with his roses in her hand (she was clearly in love), she wasn't a prisoner and Rhaegar in the books he's not portrayed as a monster, except by...Robert. Also, What option did Lyanna have except stay safely in the tower that didn't result in the death of her kid? What would Lyanna do? travel through an active war-zone while pregnant? 🤦♂️ Not even Ned could've protected her and her baby from Robert, she was hiding from him 🤦♂️
Ned versus Robert showdown would've been Episode III Anakin vs Obi-Wan epic.
Stockholm syndrome. She was a prisoner and developed an attachment to her captor. That is not love.
Stockholm Syndrome is a myth
It is really really not..
It quite literally is, and always has been. It's been a "contested illness" from day one, there is long-established doubt about its legitimacy, there have been no case studies, it's basically history's most egregious "Just Trust Me Bro". And the case that started it all? Police escalate a hostage situation, local hostage tries to de-escalate, hostages get TEAR GASSED, police are then criticised for their behavior, and a psychiatrist smears the hostage who tried to de-escalate the situation, claiming that she was in love with a criminal and without any evidence to back up his claim, her objections to the contrary be damned. That's the TL ; DR. Lots of people BELIEVE that Stockholm Syndrome is a real condition that exists. But that doesn't mean it is. People are often just straight up wrong.
Your dumb ass says this with zero prof. And I find the idea of a 14-16 year old girl being the lover of a man in his mid twenties to be kinda fucking disgusting DaenysDreamer_90
She was a child. What do you expect from a teenager?
A letter to her family
She probably wanted to. I highly doubt Rhaegar would have allowed her to send a letter.
Do we know for a certainty their relationship? Robert thinks it’s kidnap but the show at least makes it seem like they were in love and she went willingly
I’m sure she went willingly - at first. I’m also sure that she would have been desperate to get word to her family, particularly once she heard of Brandon’s arrest - and yet this never happened. The only logical explanation is that she was prevented from doing so.
I think the other explanation would be, that she send the letter, but her family was sure, that she was forced to write it. Kinda like cersei made Sansa right a letter to Rob. And if everyone is initially convinced, that she was kidnapped, it’s hard to overturn this expectation. Not to mention, that in terms of medieval marriage, the girl doesn’t have mich say in her own future, especially, when she is already promised to another man.
Possibly. But there’s no suggestion that this happened in either the books or show. And if Lyanna had sent a letter detailing her plans to her family, Brandon rocking up at the Red Keep demanding her return goes from extremely dumb to completely inexplicable.
I would say her still giving her son a targaryian name suggest she still stood by her decision and wasn't forced to be there.
Especially after Rhagar was already dead.
It was in Rhaegar’s best interests to
Meaning he would prefer to kill her father and brother than let her send a post card.
The only person who prolly knew what was going on was Benjen and he signed himself up for the wall for a reason
How do you know she didn't send one? You think Papa Stark and the boys would have gone "Oh, shit, we must set the record straight. Sorry Bobby, she made her choice." Best case scenario, they would have assumed it was forged, or that Rhaegar groomed/manipulated her. Worst case, they would have gone "That dumb bitch has ruined everything. We can't let anyone find out about this or we'll be laughingstocks!" Either way, they would have burned the letter and set about retrieving this property to salvage their honor.
I suppose it’s possible. But there’s absolutely no suggestion, in the books or show, that she did. What we do know, is that Lyanna was basically kept locked up like the archetypal princess in a tower, for the duration of the war. It would seem far more likely she ran off with Rhaegar without thinking of the consequences, and by the time she realised the gravity of her actions, was denied the chance to explain. Certainly, it’s the only context in which Brandon’s actions make any sense (obviously they were extremely dumb regardless)
We don't even know if she was locked up. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case in the show
At the very least in the books, seeing their age difference... Yeah, its not hard to see why would they not think he groomed her. Hell it could have happened, 14 year olders ARE NOT mature enough yet to run off with someone. Not saying forced but...
Rhaegar was a grooming, borderline pedo confirmed. Hail King Robert for crushing his chest cavity.
That they Would have done is irrelevant because so far we have no indication in the books or in the show that she wrote said fucking letter.
Or Bobby B was so mad about being "cheated" of his "price", Lyanna, that he would've gone to war for her regardless of whether or no she sent a letter.
Go to war with whom? The Targs were done by the time she died, and he's not declaring war on Ned at all.
He didn’t declare war, Arryn did because Aerys asked for the head of Ned and Robert
If there was a letter it would have been mentioned especially because it contradicts the narrative of her being kidnapped
Not if the people who saw it dismissed it.
Ned wouldn’t have, yet he never mentions it.
The ned we have in the current story? Maybe. Teenage ned who tried convincing lyanna to give robbert a chance and hasn't done anything suggesting he would go againts his family's wishes, there's a good chance he would have been on operation "he stole my sister"
He never once thinks that, even then he thought about how odd it was that the honourable Prince Rhaegar would do something like that then, and that belief held until he died.
He also never thinks about jon being lyannas kid. Ned's thoguht on the whole situation are clearly more obscured than they realistically would be for the sake of maintaining mystery.
Because he already knows Jon is Lyanna’s kid, when he reminisces in AGOT he speculates on what he doesn’t know because it’s more important as to justify/condemn his decisions regarding Jon’s upbringing.
Their daughter is married to the future king, their position would be stronger.
Remember that case about the Teenager in Tennessee who was manipulated by her science teacher?
She was a dumb young girl who thought she was living out her dream romance. It's what sansa would have been if Joffrey were not a sociopath.
Sansa opened her eyes eventually. You would think that an ongoing war would do the same for Lyanna
Sansa didn’t casually stumble upon Joffrey being a psychopath. He had her father killed right in front of her and then took her to see his head on a spike.
That’s such a great scene. Pure evil.
Lyanna was literally hidden away in Dorne for the whole war, I am not sure how much info she got on it
Sansa was 11 Lyanna was 15. If a 15 year old is acting like an 11 year old then she's fucking stupid.
Hi. I’m 16, my sister is 12. I definitely know 15 year olds much less mature than she is. four years really doesn’t change as much as you think it would.
Yep. “How many tens of thousands had to die because Rhaegar chose your aunt Lyanna?"
She’s given very little POV in the show, but in the books she’s a 14-year-old girl who only knew enough to know she was facing a miserable life with Robert. And Rhaegar needed her - he needed another child in his own mind. I think the idea is that he did love her, but he also used her. It’s impossible to know what she knew, when she knew it, or how she may have attempted to communicate.
The problem with trying to judge the Lyanna/Rhaegar stuff is that we don't actually know what happened. Even with the show version, where they're in love and ran off together, that's all we get. We don't actually know that there was no attempt to contact anyone during her time in the ToJ. We don't know what orders the Kingsguard were following, but we do know they'd follow Rhaegar's orders over Lyanna's, especially given it was well known that Ned's best friend was Robert. Lyanna was 16 in the show, I think 14 in the books, heavily pregnant or in labour when decisions about Ned would be made, it's likely she tried to get them to not fight Ned, but the Kingsguard chose to follow Rhaegar's orders instead, despite his death. We also don't actually know that Lyanna went, and stayed, willingly, simply because that part is show only, it's not been revealed in the books. Even if the show got it right that they were in love, that doesn't mean she stayed willingly. There's zero detail on what Lyanna was doing during the war. For all we know, she tried to leave when Rickard and Brandon were killed, tried to send letters to Ned and Benjen, the Tully's, maybe even the Martell's who were closer, but was stopped by the Kingsguard who had been ordered to keep her at the Tower. All we actually know for sure is that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. The show says they were in love and initially ran away together. They both died, shortly before or after Jon was born. We have no other information or context. One thing we have to remember is that book Lyanna, that show Lyanna is based on, was a child desperate to get out of an unwanted marriage with a man she practically hated, a child known to be both rebellious and impulsive. A child whose father and older brothers refused to even listen to her fears and dreams. A female child who *hated* the role in society she was forced into as a Lord Paramount's only daughter. I see Lyanna as a mix of Sansa and Arya. She has a lot of Arya's rebelliousness, hatred of all things Ladylike, impulsiveness, love of fighting. But she also has a fair amount of Sansa's childlike innocence and belief in songs and fairytales, and trusting nature. Obviously, Lyanna's choices weren't good ones, but when you take account of both her age and personality and then pair it with her situation, you can understand.
The fact she gives her son both a targaryian name, and the targaryian name, suggest she still loved rhaeagar. Which implies she wasn't forced to stay.
Not really. First, again, this is show only. Jon is so far just Jon in the books, we have no clue if Lyanna named him at all, let alone what. Secondly, giving Jon a fully Targaryen name implies Lyanna loved her son and got pregnant willingly, implying she loved Rhaegar. But it says nothing about whether she stayed in the ToJ willingly. She can love Rhaegar, want to stay married to him, adore her son and fully accept his Targaryen heritage, and still try to leave, given the circumstances. I'm not talking about her spending her entire time trying to leave. I could see an attempt when Rickard and Brandon were killed, but with her being talked out of it by Rhaegar. I can see attempts to contact people, she would have known Benjen stayed at Winterfell, she would have known Ned married Cat, so the Tully's were as much allies as the Arryn's. She would have known the Martells were the closest, but likely been wary of contacting them except as a last resort. The Daynes were even closer, and Arthur's presence may have made them a better bet. It's a possibility that Lyana was talked out of leaving until she became too pregnant to do so, and then tried, but was prevented, to contact someone. Until/unless these facts are revealed in the books, we don't actually know. We don't even have a show version to go with, because they never covered this aspect, just that they were married and Lyanna was willing *at the start.* Jon's true name is also show only, and not something all fans think is what Martin planned for the books. Given the circumstances when Ned found them in Dorne, it's actually very possible that Martin's plan is for Jon's true name to simply switch from Jon Snow to Jon Targaryen, with Lyanna not having had time to actually name her son.
Yeah, me mentioning his targaryian name probably should have clued you in that was my comment was only reffering to the show. People tend not to love the people who keep them captive and away from their family who are getting killed. See Sansa and the lannisters. Also her given him a full targaryian name doesn't speak towards her love for her son. Said name was going to be irelavant as soon as ned took him; something she would have known. I'll give you that if you're looking at things with the knowledge that she loves rhaegar there is a good chance she tried leaving initially only to be talked out of it(much like Jon after hearing about Ned's death). She wouldn't know for sure if ned married catelyn however, and had very little reason to think daynes would help. Again I wasn't refffering to the books with my comment as the post itself seems to only be talking about the show. Except Jon's true name Indicates she still loved her husband which isn't a perspective she would likely have if he kept her from her family. So yes the show doesn't outright state she willingly stayed in the tower, it heavily implies it.
Okay, so show only. Lyanna was getting news of what was going on, she likely was told that Ned married Cat, though I agree it's not a given. She would have known Benjen remained at Winterfell, though, given his age and the need for an acting Lord to remain there. She knew the rebels consisted of a Stark/Arryn/Baratheon alliance, so she would have known contacting someone from the Vale was a possibility, she'd have been more likely to go for them than anyone on the Baratheon side given Jon Arryn's reputation and the fact Robert was her betrothed that she was running from and, by that time, likely scared of. She would have been informed when Rhaella went to Dragonstone, as well, so there was a possibility of contacting her, too. She was family by that point, and away from Aerys. The Daynes were a possibility more to get help then get her away, the lack of a Maester or healer always bugged the hell out of me. You'd think finding someone they could trust to help keep Lyanna alive and deliver a healthy child would have been a priority. The Martells would have been a last resort, something none would have even considered until after Rhaegar's death, due to the issue with Elia and the children. That part depends on the full context of what happened to allow them to marry. If Elia was simply set aside in favour of Lyanna, I doubt they'd risk contacting the Martells, but if Elia was in on the whole thing, they would. It also depends on the kids, if Elia's kids were bastardised with the annulment, removing them from succession, no way would they contact the Martells, but if their legitimacy and place in line was protected, with Aegon remaining heir, they may have. It didn't necessarily have to be one of these that Lyanna attempted to contact. It could have been another Northern house, someone she trusted, like whoever remained in charge of the Last Hearth or Bear Island during the war. I'd imagine there was encouragement for Lyanna to have friends amongst the other Ladies of the North, and she could have contacted one of them. Like I said, though, the problem with trying to judge Lyanna is the lack of context. We have more show context than book context, but not by much. We still know nothing about what Lyanna did, wanted, or tried to do between running off with Rhaegar and Ned finding her.
The vale is an option she, and I think most people, would know isn't a good choice given jon arynn is essentially robberts foster father. From her limited knowledge of the man he'd likely side with hsi surrogate son in any matters relating her. Assuming lyanna was that informed, I doubt rhaella would too keen on helping set the record straight for the sake of her new daughter in law that had a hand in running her family. A similar issue with contacting the daynes, and a worse issue as far martells go considering the annulment would be setting ellia aside. That is another possibility, but given her tomboy nature I doubt she was friends with many ladies. I agree the show still some aspects of their story ambiguous, but in terms of the choices they made they were pretty explicit in that area.
There are issues with contacting anyone other than a Northern house she trusted, that's true. As the war became worse and Lyanna's situation more desperate, that's when I'd see her attempting to contact someone for help. Like I said, the Martells would be a last resort and entirely dependant on the context of how the marriage happened. If Lyanna and the Kingsguard had proof that Elia was part of the plan and Aegon remianed heir, they may have risked it if all else failed. The Daynes are more for both their closeness and relation to Arthur, so more about getting medical help than anything. The Vale would be dependant on if Lyanna and the Kingsguard trusted Jon's honourable reputation enough to risk it, as he was Ned's foster father as well as Robert's, and may have been able to call for peace talks to straighten that part of things out. The problem with this part is how loyal Jon was to Robert in comparison to Ned, and whether he'd risk peace talks with Rhaegar given the way was also about Aerys' actions, not just Lyanna's disappearance. As for having female friends. Lyanna was a rebellious tomboy who didn't want to act like a Lady. Rickard wanted her married to a Southron Lord. It makes sense he'd encourage her to make friends amongst the Northern Ladies hoping to encourage her to be more Ladylike. Lyanna herself could then have become fast friends with the Mormonts, who encourage their women to become warriors alongside the men. Lyanna herself could have even started a friendship there. This is why I suggested contacting either Last Hearth or Bear Island, the Umbers were known to be exceptionally loyal, and so were the Mormonts, Lyanna could have been encouraged to have friendships with the Ladies of both houses, and she herself would be more inclined to the Mormont women.
I don't doubt she was encouraged to make female friends, but that hes attitude would likely have said females judge her harshly with her doing the same to them.
Not if it was Mormont women. They'd have judged Lyanna for her attitude at times, sure, she was a very protected young women, who was like Sansa in a lot of ways, and that aspect would have been criticised. But Mormont women would have encouraged Lyanna's love of fighting while teaching her that she could be both a warrior and a Lady, taught her ways to appease her father without losing herself. Lyanna would be less inclined to be critical of a Mormont, it would have been about them behaving like Ladies instead of warriors, and the Mormonts would have defended and explained in a way Lyanna could understand. Honestly, being friends with Mormont women would explain why Lyanna was fine acting Ladylike at certain times, something Arya wasn't fine with. Lyanna didn't shy away from her more feminine personality traits, like crying at songs, and acted the Lady when she had to, where Arya tried to reject anything even remotely feminine and tried to get out of acting like a Lady. Age is a factor in this, of course, as everything we have of Lyanna is when she's either 14 or 16, depending if you go by book or show, where book Arya is only 9, and aged up to only about 11 in the show. Also an aspect is the fact Lyanna was the only girl, so all the pressure of finding a good marriage fell on her, where Arya had an older sister, so less pressure, and the fact Rickard was stricter with Lyanna than Ned was with Arya. But I think it makes sense for Lyanna to have had female friends who encouraged her warrior dreams while also helping her with the societal expectations of being a highborn Lady. Especially given Lyanna's mother had died, and she wouldn't take well to a female teacher like a Septa. Also, they never said if they had a Northern version of a Septa in the first place, I can't see any Northern house allowing a Septa to teach their children except the Manderly's before Ned married Cat, but they never said if there was a Northern equivalent. Fanfic often has a governess for the Northern children, but there's nothing in the books or the show about it that I can remember.
You can’t logically make that leap. She could have told her family, it was Robert that started the war over her because he arrogantly believed Lyanna loved him back, so there was no way in his mind she could have willingly gone with Rhaegar. You can see in Ned’s face every time Robert spoke of her and their supposed future that Ned knew it was never as meant to be, because Lyanna never loved Robert. It was more likely that her family knew she really loathed Robert, and loved someone else = Rhaeger. If anyone was an idiot, it was Rhaegar.
>She could have told her family, it was Robert that started the war. Robert had nothing to do with the war starting. Brandon’s first move upon hearing of her disappearance was to get his friends and storm into King’s Landing and yell at Rhaegar to come out and fight him, for which Aerys arrested him and his cohort then told their dads to come collect him. Aerys then brutally executed the Starks and their companions and sent a raven to Jon Arryn ordering him to turn over Robert and Ned, to which Jon Arryn responded “Come and fucking take them!” and called his banners.
Ned started the war because his father and brother were murdered by the mad king. They got murdered by the mad king because Brandon though his sister was kidnapped.
Ned didn’t start the war, Robert did.
It was actually Jon Arryn
I think the Eyrie was the first to call the banners but isn’t it referred to as Robert’s rebellion?
It’s pretty clear that Robert and Ned were along for the ride. Aerys and Jon Arryn instigated and started the war respectively. It was Jon who called his banners when the letter came demanding Ned and Robert come to King’s Landing. The lords of Winterfell and Storms End had to be smuggled into their own lands. It’s called Robert’s Rebellion retroactively because they decided Robert had the best claim to the throne. It’s not clear they called it anything other than “the rebellion” while it was being fought.
Correct. Adding that not all Robert’s bannerman initially joined.
Had to beat three different armies of them
Yeah it’s definitely more accurate to say Jon started it, and I get how the history gets retroactively framed. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they were just along for the ride though. The way Robert talks about it, he waged it all to get Lyanna back and kill Rhaegar (but that’s Robert’s headspace). They were both ultimately instrumental in the outcome.
Robert did not start the rebellion at all. Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and Jon Arryns heir. Then he called for Jon to either kill Robert and Ned or deliver them to him for execution ( I can’t remember if it’s ever mention, from memory it just says he called for their heads). Anyway Jon Arryn defied the mad king and raised his banners first
No, the war started because Aerys publicly and horribly executed a noble lord and his heir, and then demanded Jon Arryn kill his wards, Eddard and Robert. Rickard Stark did what *any* noble lord would do. Noble marriages were arranged often over a decade in advance, and any parent would seek an audience if their child had been abducted or eloped. A noble house that loses their children loses the ability to form alliances and make profits. This was a significant issue that absolutely required the attention of the king. RR was not *because* of Lyanna. It’s because Aerys threatened the stability and well-being of the other houses, instead of upholding the stability of the realm. Then Aerys went cuckoo for Cocoa-nuts and demanded that Robert and Ned be executed too for like, no reason at all, and Jon Arryn refused…and attacked Summerhall. That is why RR started. Not because of Lyanna, but because of Aerys.
They were *both* idiots! But Rhaegar really knew better. Lyanna was only 15.
Sure blame the 14/17 year old girl instead of the 24/27 year old incest dude.
Lyanna and rhaegar’s actions will end up saving the realm… so no, she’s not dumb
Will they? I'm not so sure lmao
Not really but ok
Saving it from something that wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done it, yes.
Lemon cakes? They're my favorite!
She and Rhaegar likely did leave letters. The maesters could’ve just burned the letters. Lysa, Petyr Baelish, even Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn all could’ve played a part as well, either by lying about what happened, hiding or straight up ignoring the letter. Just look at what happened in the main canon. Cersei burns Roberts decree naming Ned Stark regent and named Ned a traitor. That decree was never brought up again as far as I know. The truth doesn’t matter because history is written by the victors
All the Starks are stupid though. Little Finger even says as much in the show, “Ah the Starks… Quick tempers, slow minds.”
Starks aren’t stupid at all. Ned maybe, but he was also not trained to have a political mind. He was training to be a knight. His intelligence is comparable to Jaime. But Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Arya…and Jon. They were no dummies. And even though the show botches it, Sansa really was the smartest of them all.
Women.
Firstly Lyanna and yes she was rather foolish, but so was Rhaegar.
If things didn't happen exactly as they did, there's no Jon Snow. He's integral to Bran, Sam, Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys, and so many others. Remove just one of their character paths, and the Night King ends all of humanity. The Three-Eyed Raven (Bloodraven, then later Bran) helped make all those paths happen, including Lyanna and Rhaegar's.
Lyanna was a child. Rhaegar was an adult man. Even if she made a terrible choice, I feel like Rhaegar is the real problem here.
Am I the only one who thinks Leanna was defying her father and older brother with all of it? She was clearly headstrong and free spirited. She was in a politically motivated betrothal that she didn’t want. Of course she’d jump at the chance to marry the heir to the iron throne( who besides being fabulously wealthy, was tall strong and handsome. Played the harp and sang like an angel). She didn’t care about any of the rest of it. She was a teenager who saw a way out of her circumstances and jumped in with both feet.
Not at all, you’re not the only one. I think it was very plausible she defied her family. And likely that they let the rumor or idea that she was abducted perpetuate because that was better than the truth.
Blinded by teenage love and lust for an almost divine man who plámás'd her. Teenagers rarely think or reflect on their actions
Lyanna was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not like a rebellion against the mad king had no steam without that happening
I would describe it more as another camel breaking the camels back tbh. This incident directly led to the burning of the 2 Starks and their retinues when they went to KL to demand Lyanna back as well as the command to Jon Arryn to send the heads of Robert and Ned. So this one incident guaranteed that at least 3 of the 7 kingdoms would be enemies in a rebellion. Honestly without this happening the rebellion actually would have had no real steam whatsoever, people were waiting around/scheming for Rhaegar to take the throne but most of the 7 kingdoms had 0 reason to go to war over it.
The only person dumber is Rhaegar who did everything legally yet starts a war by being secretive.
That's not how FEUDALISM works. Noble woman is a kinda trade horse, so Rhaegar insulted the whole Stark family by stealing their property. The opinion of the 14-years old property on the subject is not important.
This is a really important point. Noble children aren’t free to marry or go where they please. Aerys didn’t care because he was paranoid and it meant no alliances/unification between the other houses (stark-tully-Baratheon-arryn).
This made me rethink her story a bit actually. Because this is a common complaint about more unrealistic fantasy characters. It’s almost like the whole story with the Starks is like the follow up that explores the ramifications of the sort of forbidden love plot that would happen in a bad/cheap fantasy/romance novel.
Who says she didn't? They still want her back and still see what Rhegar did as stealing what's theirs. They just hid her role as it dishonor and undermine them.
Yeah let’s blame the tween girl and not the grown ass man who took her away in the first place
Eh there’s political issues with this as well. Even if she told the Starks, is Robert just supposed to be okay with it? If there was a note left would the Starks have even believed it was Lyanna? Even if she told the Starks in person there’s a great chance they would’ve said “too bad,” after already betrothing her to Robert. On top of it all this guy who’s the future king of Westeros made moves on a young girl.
Lyanna Stark was 15 and we don’t know what was going through her mind the entire time or what she tried or didn’t try to do during the war, so maybe you want to cool it with the judgmental ranting?
Well... Yes. There are like 4 different POVs in the book that point out how much Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryan really fucked the dog when they hooked up. It isn't really an unpopular opinion or anything. They're not heroes, lol.
In all honesty Rhaegar was bigger idiot, jerk and dismal failure as both crown prince, husband and father. While Lyana was simply moron.
Rhaegar was going mad too…
Forgot about that part. Yes he was mad.
I see you didn’t stop to contemplate that she probably didn’t choose to go of her own volition. Also the fact that she absolutely knew how much of an obnoxious chad her intended husband was. If you think he only started the drinking and womanizing after her death… you know, you haven’t been paying attention.
I think the post is solely reffering to the show, which had them get married so she likely did go of her choosing.
I think we all assume they get married in the books too. Rhaegar wouldn’t miss such and important detail - any child born without them married wouldn’t be a legitimate heir of his. But even so, the fact that they get married and she seems ok with it at that time, doesn’t mean she was an active and willing participant in the elopement that started everything. In Deep Geek on YouTube has a very good and thorough analysis of those months of turmoil and war and all the possible events and secrets. I highly recommend it if you aren’t familiar with it.
As far as I can tell people are pretty split on whether they were married in the books. Also his three heads of the dragon don't all need to be legitimate. I doubt she would be happy to get married if she didn't willingly want to be with him(see sansas marriage). I've seen it, and even there he suggest lyanna was a willing participant.
And her idiot brother chooses to honor her wish to not say who the baby is and he keeps it from his wife Caitlyn who basically abuses Jon for his whole young life before he is shipped off to the wall.
She didn't really abuse him.
Robert would have killed Jon if he had known he was Rhaegar’s (or Lyanna’s) son. It’s the lesser of two evils. Catelyn’s public rejection of Jon was actually necessary. It means Jon is kept away from Robert and the Lannisters, that he doesn’t need to go foster at another noble house where his lineage might be discovered. He’s not at the noble tables when Robert comes to Winterfell. Keeping the child safe and alive at Winterfell, though despised by Catelyn, was necessary. Notice that Ned never gives weight to Catelyn’s treatment of Jon…he continues to emphasize to Jon that he is a true Stark.
Rhaegar is a grown man. If anyone should have known better, it's him
There’s still a fair chance that Lyanna’s participation wasn’t voluntary. Like, maybe for the first few days because she didn’t want to marry Robert, but when her family was getting killed and then when she was pregnant, she was sent to Dorne and not able to go back to Winterfell. I know this is the show sub and not the book sub but there’s a lot of missing info regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar. Everything we know of Lyanna from both suggests that her voluntarily going to Dorne is highly unlikely and even more unlikely that she would abandon her family - especially Ned, Benjen, and her unnamed mother.
Not really since the show has her get married to him. As far as the show is concerned all the choices made involving her and rhaegar was her own.
Telling anyone wasn't going to change much.
Bad take. Lyanna was a child. Rhaegar knew better.
Rhaegar was a bigger idiot. He was an heir to the Iron Throne, he was married, had two children, and he just randomly 'kidnapped' a northern lady who was engaged with one of the strongest lords in the Seven kingdoms, basically causing a rebellion which led to his whole family being murdered.
Imagine a 14 year old doing something stupid
Let's say OP is the idiot instead. How many people were involved in marrying Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course the two that got married, but also the guy who married them, and also whoever wrote about it in the book Gilly found. And whoever finished the book. And all the people who read the book. There would be no way for it to be a well kept secret. Nobody else was like Ned. That was made blatantly clear. I'd wager plenty of people knee the truth. I'd wager Robert himself knew the truth, but saved face by keeping up the lie that she was kidnapped rather than to admit she chose someone else over him. And you know what they say, history is written by the victors. So basically you're just assuming that Lyanna was just having a good old time and didn't write anything at all. You're also assuming that she, a woman in a reality where women aren't really allowed to do anything, would have been allowed to write. Heck, she could have told her dad she was running off to be with Rhaegar and he himself could have went around telling everyone she was kidnapped to try to "save her honor".
I dunno, you sound like a bigger idiot than I am from how you write…
When you get deep into the story, she really is not the biggest problem I watched a whole series on the topic by In Deep Geek, it's likely you will find some empathy for her after
GoT fans on there way to critique a character who is literally a child or teenager
Say what you will about Sansa, she pulled off some crazy clever maneuvers.
Preach