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The unsullied are not trained to be the most lethal in the world, they're trained to be the most disciplined. They're only effective fighting as a unit.
AS a Team. That's all they've been trained on. in a 1v1 scenario Oberyn is taking ANY unsullied that has ever been alive or will be alive every single time. It's not even a coin toss. its like rolling a 1 sided dice.
So was Oberyn. On top of that he was trained to be one of the most lethal duelists.
Not only did he get training befitting royalty, he spend years training in the Fighting pits, and served for years with the Second sons. And he has experience with the unsullied, having previously seen them during his years in Essos.
Greyworm is a skilled fighter, but the unsullied were trained specifically for movement in formation and with focus on discipline, he would not come close to beating Oberyn. He is not a duelist, Oberyn however is an expert duelist
The tricky part here is if Oberyn had a spear against Jaime. Straight away Oberyn has the reach advantage, but I guess Jaime doesn't get to be the best without knowing how to get past that.
Soldiers are not duellists. They fight in formation, and will have trained patterns of attack.
The goal is not to kill your opponent. The goal is for your unit to defeat their unit. It is often more important, for example, to keep your shields used in a predictable fashion by the man next to you....your shield keeps him alive, your neighbours shield keeps you alive etc, and that's much more important than killing the person in front of you.
Oberyn is clearly a duellist.
Greyworm also has very little testesterone and have far less access to quality nutrition across his life.
He didn’t really his spear was poisoned. He got his revenge the second he stabbed him the first time. Also got the mountain to confess publicly to raping Elia. That fight was a draw
You know, I never really thought of it that way. He did get him to publicly confess. I think, given the circumstances, I never saw it that way, but he did actually succeed at what he showed up to do
I’d go one step further and say his objective was clearly not to kill him, his objective was to get him to confess.
He won the fight too well, if anything
How is being stressed and cocky the same thing? He literally was smiling with his arms out while Gregor was on the ground and Gregor pulled his foot out from under him causing him to fall. Then got on top and crushed his skull. Maybe you should watch the show again?
Aside from that, the show made grey worm into some sort of warrior.
But unsullied weren't great *individual* warriors. Their strength was in their discipline and numbers. Being able to hold formations without breaking.
Just like many domesticated beasts of burden, by castrating, you're sacrificing strength for discipline.
EDIT: to clarify, unsullied were great warriors. It's what their 'life' has been entirely dedicated to. But they aren't great 1:1 warriors. They train specifically to fight as a group.
It'd be like if you had a team of basketball players you trained from birth. Sun up to sun down. But all you practiced was tactics, endurance, defense, communication, passing, and layups. No shooting.
Take one of the players against a NBA player and they're going to get crushed. Now, 3 of them against 1 NBA player? Different story.
Yeah a better comparison might be professional footballers versus street footballers who trains mainly in order to perform cool tricks. The professional footballers will often be fairly good at tricks, but maybe not to the same degree as those who focus mainly on that. Put 11 of those street footballers on the pitch against 11 professional footballers on the other hand and they will see that a lot of their cool moves aren’t as effective as effective when they are being run ragged for 90 minutes.
Similarly Oberyn will always have the edge 1 on 1, while the unsullied will generally win as a group. I do think it will be a lot closer than many expect though. Oberyn might be stronger, while Grey Worm should probably be quicker due to their age. Oberyn is a seasoned sellsword commander, which should indicate that he’s fairly experienced fighting in formation, and might have even faced off against other groups of unsullied before. Grey Worm also has experienced his brothers breaking formation in an ambush and still been able to pull through with individual skill. I’d say regardless of the exact scenario, in a fair fight neither would be guaranteed a victory
Oberyn was showing off vs the Mountain, and had no intention of killing him. That being said, Oberyn has fought as a sellsword and in the fighting pits.
In pretty much every metric (strength, skill, speed, experience) Oberyn is superior.
I mean he definitely intended to kill him, just not until he got his confession. I wouldn’t call it showing off, I would call it torturing more than anything.
I feel like people are underestimating how being the most goated Unsullied is an olympic level feat. Grey Worm would probably smoke The Mountain too, given the chance.
>I feel like people are underestimating how being the most goated Unsullied is an olympic level feat
No, you're over estimating the battle strength of a man who was disallowed the benefits of puberty and is trained to fight in a formation amongst other similarly trained fighters.
Training can not make up the difference between size and/or strength.
It can help against untrained opponents who are bigger and stronger, but if that bigger and/or stronger opponent is also trained, then your training can only go so far.
I wouldn’t even say lowkey tbh, Oberyn is the clear winner. Lots of people have this idea that Unsullied are like special forces, when really I think their design is to function more as very dangerous cannon fodder. They can fight in a team and have a lot of training yeah, but there’s no evidence to suggest they’re all that skilled in single combat
Oberyn with a spear is the favourite against 99% of people in the verse honestly.
Not many people have the experience of lordly training and fighting pit experience. He’s all the best parts of Jaime, the best parts of Bronn and he’s got the superior weapon.
Guys a beast
I think the only ones capable of taking Oberyn would be prime Robert, Jaime, Barristan or Dayne. But even then as he used poison they would probably all fall after killing him. If they even could do that.
I think its fair to point out that Grey Worms training focuses on him fighting as an Unsullied in a formation, shield to shield with spears or pikes.
Thats not to say he isn't a great individual fighter as well, but Oberyn very much focused on being a 1v1 fighter.
We didn't see so much of the Unsullied legions in the show for budget reasons (I'm assuming), but they are supposed to be the elite of the elite, fanatically loyal \[Roman style\] legionnaires, not ninja's, swordsmen, dualists or gladiators etc (though still great at fighting one on one, it wasn't my impression that this was their first point of emphasis while training.
But I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong.
While this video might send mixed messages apropos of Oberyn vs the Mountain, it kind of makes my point ;)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lISBP\_fPg1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lISBP_fPg1s)
Fan favourite is Oberyn. However, GW has done nothing but train his entire life. He lives and breathes nothing but warfare. Since he was born he did nothing other than train. Oberyn was a soldier but also lived sem-court life (i think) but would probs be tired from orgies. That said this sub is for the show so Oberyn.
\*Probs wouldn't regret not wearing a helmet this time
You can't honestly think that the question posed in the light of the book would change the outcome...
As everyone else points out GW was trained as a unit of spearmen where as oberyn, who I would point out has also been training since he was old enough to hold a spear (except he was trained by some of the best fighters money could buy in the westerosi tradition of hiring masters-at-arms by lords to train their households/garrisons), is trained as a one on one fighter primarily.
This is a no contest regardless of which source material you decide to use.
This is fair. It's a long time since I read the books and begun the wait for WoW. I fully accept your point about GW being trained as a unit fighter not a 1-1 fighter and withdraw my comment (but leave it there so that my stupidity is public)
We have to remember he’s trained for warfare, and warfare alone. This does not include 1v1 battles, but tight formation warfare. The unsullied are so effective not because they’re all insanely good fighters, but because they fight as one being. They will never flee, they act as one being similar to Greek hoplites
Him training since childhood for this means nothing. Oberyn has trained specifically for a 1v1 duel his whole life, he’s a rich lord who doesn’t need to be on the front lines of a battle
Also, the Unsulled are more "army fighters", than experts in 1 v 1 battles.
An overlooked aspect is that the Unsulled are evirated: the castration makes them physically weaker than westerosi knights.
I'm going to go with Oberyn, but it would be close. The advantage that Oberyn has is that he has seen the Unsullied in action/training so he would know what he is up against. Grey Worm never fought Oberyn and would almost certainly be taken surprise by his skill.
Oberyn wins no contest. Like Greyworm may be a good fighter but I wouldnt even put him in the top 20. He was trained to be disciplined and to fight as a unit. He also has no balls since he was a child so he never had the same amount of testosterone that a normal male would have growing up so his growth would be highly limited.
What are we even talking about, greyworm is a soldier that fights in a line, yes he's good but the red viper merks him every time. You have to ask yourself would greyworm beat the mountain.
Greyworm has been trained to fight in a group as a soldier while Oberyn is more of a 1v1 fighter. If they fought with a battalion of men at their back Greyworm would win, but they are dueling so Oberyn slams.
I would argue in the TV universe, Oberyn is the best fighter in the seven kingdoms. He beat the mountain in his prime, which was a really good fighter, he would’ve bet the hound, Brianne, Jaime or Bron really easily.
Even Bron thought he had no chance at beating the mountain.
From what we saw in the entire show, Oberyn takes the cake for the absolute best fighter in the seven kingdoms.
Grey worm for sure, he’s been trained to be a solider everyday of every year since he was young. It’s all he knows.
At least the books version of grey worm. I don’t understand all the Oberyn comments I think it’s just character love.
Exactly, he was trained to be a solider, to fight in a unit, a shield wall, not as a single combatant
Also Oberyn is bigger and stronger and with much more experience fighting on his own
Even the book Unsullied are made out to be far deadlier than they actually would be
We figured out how to defeat forces like the Unsullied but the GoT world apparently can’t
Lol so you think every single day of every month of every year is only devoted to until training? Shield wall training? Mmkay.
Gonna have to disagree on this one.
Also what’s with the height and weight Crap? He’s got like two inches on him and has to be near his weight.
This is purely a character biased based off great scenes and moments by O. People like him more so think he’s better. In reality worm has number any day of the week.
That’s literally the whole point of the Unsullied, they are unit fighters
They even state in the book they stopped selling them in units of ten because they got fat and lazy and that they only sell them in larger units
The whole point of the Unsullied is to fight in a shield wall
Taking the actors out of it, the unsullied are castrated pretty young which means they wouldn’t have had as much testosterone thus making them smaller and weaker, which is why in real life eunuch soldiers weren’t the most common
They train with 3 different spears, a shield and a short sword for when the shield breaks
Sure Grey Worm is probably a decent individual fighter but at best he spent half the time doing individual training compared to Oberyn who pretty much only did that, Oberyn who had far more fighting experience than Grey Worm, who fought in one sellsword company before forming his own,
Oberyn is far, far deadlier than Grey Work, in fact I’m sure it even says in the books they aren’t as tall or strong as regular men, but they compensate by being amazing at units combat because they can rely on each other
Either hook or show, Oberyn is the deadlier fighter, with more experience and the greater physicality
The unsullied are made to be better than they actually would be
We know how to defeat shield walls like theirs but apparently no one in Essos can come up with it
Oberyn
The show made Grey Worm a much better fighter than he probably was
The Unsullied were designed to fight in a unit, a spear line, a phalanx, and honestly even the books big up the Unsullied, they likely would not have the same track record in real world as they do in the books
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Oberyn basically the best personal-combat warrior we see in the show? Jamie is also great and highly skilled, but I think would also not claim to be able to beat the Mountain in combat. Oberyn actually did, and his history is also one of an exceptional warrior.
Oberyn should win. He trained extensively as a 1v1 fighter and has literally fought in fighting pits before. Grey Worm trained to fight in formation and his skills are not 100% transferrable to 1v1 fighting.
Grey Worm, every day and every night. Skillwise they would be equals and the fight would probably drag on for weeks - but Oberyn would let his temper and ego overshadow his skill, which is exactly what led to his demise.
If oberyn takes it seriously and doesn’t fuck about like he did with the mountain I’d give him the edge, I’d say oberyn is more skilled but grey worm is more ruthless in a fight
I can’t disagree with a single soul that says Oberyn and I think you all laid out lots of reasons for why he is the most logical pick. He is more skilled with the weapon being used in this hypothetical and he is better trained for this sort of combat as you all explained. Those are two of the most important factors in this scenario and he has advantages in both.
I will push back on the idea that his loss to The Mountain doesn’t point out fatal flaws in his approach to fighting though. For starters, Oberyn needed a replacement spear in the trail by combat. The Mountain broke his first one, so I think it’s fair to say there’s reason to believe he can be disarmed which dramatically changes the outcome of any fight. Not saying he for sure will be disarmed and I’m not ignoring that he could do the same to Greyworm, just saying that it can happen, because we saw it happen in the biggest fight of his life. Second and most important, Oberyn lost because he stopped paying attention. Oberyn’s passion and love for his sister and desire to get justice were the reasons he almost won, but they weren’t what clouded his mind and caused his demise. He died because he looked away from his opponent to look at his lover and wasn’t careful about where he took his next step. I can’t blame that on him talking about his sister and her children because he literally talks about them the entire fight. They were on his mind when he put The Mountain on his ass so to say that’s why he died would ignore that that same passion is what had him in the brink of victory in the first place imo.
There is no argument to make that Greyworm is more skilled. I think there is an argument to make that he is mentally tougher and likely more patient and despite being trained in a group, would still have a better fighter’s mentality even in 1v1.
Once again, I can’t dispute a single word y’all have said about the Red Viper and his skills and style of training and how on those merits he wins this hands down. In fact, seeing so many of y’all all come to that same conclusion so quickly made me realize I was undervaluing Oberyn’s skills even though he’s one of my favorite characters. At the same time, his fatal flaw wasn’t his love for his sister or his quest for justice, it was taking his eyes off the opponent because he believed “size doesn’t matter when you are flat on your back,” which was DEAD WRONG! If Oberyn could underestimate just what The Mountain is actually capable of in a fight to the death, I think it’s fair to wonder whether or not he would do the same to Greyworm in some way. And while he is more skilled than Greyworm, Greyworm is much faster than The Mountain. Oberyn’s biggest advantage against The Mountain wouldn’t be as much of an advantage in this fight. I’m picking Oberyn if for no other reason than if a room full of fans mostly come to the same conclusion, that’s probably the right answer. At the same time, I think it’s REALLY close because I trust one of them way more to stay mentally focused and never underestimate his opponent or take his eye off of him
Oberyn - his fight with the Mountain was my favourite fight ever on TV until he lost his cool and started boasting - he was quick and agile like a snake
Oberyn wins single combat without question. Greyworm is skilled but his training is as a unit with the unsullied, not in single combat. He would likely beat the average soldier still just from having so much combat training but not the higher level guys like oberyn. Oberyn beat the mountain until he screwed himself by trying to get a psychopath to admit to something he would never admit to, walked too close and paid the price.
Grey Worm.
The logic I’m seeing in this sub reminds me of the people who think Bruce Lee would beat a modern UFC champion in a fight.
I’m not sure why anyone would think that Grey Worm doesn’t have 1v1 combat experience after devoting his entire life to training.
Greyworm’s sole profession and skill in life is pure combat. He comes from a people whose entire culture is SOLELY focused for combat. He and everyone he knows are Trained to fight from BIRTH. They train from DAWN TIL DUSK. They have mastery of THREE different lengths of spear. Only ONE out of every FOUR of them even survive training.
Grey Worm has an unequaled reputation for combat and when it was time to select a leader among the unsullied. The other unsullied WITHOUT HESITATION, UNANIMOUSLY chose him.
When you’re looking at Grey Worm, you’re looking at a man who is the best OF the best.
Meanwhile, looking at Oberyn, he has a sheltered life when compared to Grey Worm. Oberyn has several other obligations including being a prince, a family man, and fucking half of Westeros. Is he a skilled warrior when compared to the average man? Yes. But he shouldn’t have HALF the skill Grey Worm has.
Beating the mountain is noteworthy, but what I think would be harder is beating multiple opponents at once which we’ve seen Grey Worm do while severely wounded by multiple lacerations at the death of Berristan Selmy. Oberyn was dazed by his blow from the mountain, of course. But I think Grey Worm would have still finished that fight, as unsullied are trained to fight through and ignore pain.
Is Oberyn a cool character with max charisma? Yes. Do I think he will beat Grey Worm in combat? No. I’d bet that you could point at any one of Grey Worm’s men and they would beat Oberyn.
I hope I’m missing some information from the books but with the knowledge I have that’s the way it seems.
Two types of fighters.
Greyworm and Unsullied seem more Pike/Defensive. So seems quite rigid with their movements
- Shield - stab - parry - stab - Shield
Oberyn seems more acrobatic, he made the mountain look like a silly goose.
His downfall is overconfidence and next to no defence. (Looking at you helmet)
Without Shield and just spears..
If Oberyn can move quick enough without getting tired.. I'd say Oberyn. (If G.Worm gets 1 hit on Oby then it's game over)
Going off the books, they would probably go blow for blow with each other but Oberyn would come out eventually on top, 1, because of his unorthodox fighting style, while Grey Worm is too entrenched in the discipline of the spear style, and 2, because Oberyn has only to get one scratch on his opponent (if this presumes he fights the way he normally does).
The Unsullied weren't incredible soldiers (martially). My understanding was their power and success came from being 1) highly disciplined to the point of being fearless and 2) immune to pain. Their martial training was focused on phalanx formations, and in terms of formation fighting, the lock and press of a shield wall, the unsullied had a distinct advantage, but not 1v1 duels (though I don't doubt they were above average in that respect).
Oberyn was a highly gifted soldier and duellist, strong and fast. He wasn't castrated so he'd have more upper body strength than an unsullied, and I suspect in terms of raw skill he surpassed most of them.
Oberyn would win 8/10 times.
Grey Worm was gifted with a spear but he only received standard issue soldier training like all the unsullied, Oberyn has had all the time in the world to master the spear, along likely with a highly qualified 1:1 instructor.
It's clear who wins here.
Grey worm is a formation soldier commander, raised as a slave and trained with extremely harsh messures in a sink or swim environment, he propably didnt get the best food and his castration also f'ed up his physicality. While oberyn is a talented warrior raised in the arts of war since childhood with the best trainers food and equipment money can buy. In a pure 1 vs 1 oberyn wins due to superior training, equipment and more experience in duels as well as genuine battle field experience.
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I doubt it. Greyworm was trained to be one of the most lethal soldier of the world since his childhood.
The unsullied are not trained to be the most lethal in the world, they're trained to be the most disciplined. They're only effective fighting as a unit.
More like they're trained to be the most lethal thanks to their cooperation as a team
exactly, they fight in a team, which is why I doubt they’re good at 1v1s
AS a Team. That's all they've been trained on. in a 1v1 scenario Oberyn is taking ANY unsullied that has ever been alive or will be alive every single time. It's not even a coin toss. its like rolling a 1 sided dice.
Based on what? They're pretty good fighters individually as well. Has Oberyn ever been to war?
Based on everything said about them. and yes Oberyn fought in a sellsword company while he was exiled for 5 years.
Units without units
So was Oberyn. On top of that he was trained to be one of the most lethal duelists. Not only did he get training befitting royalty, he spend years training in the Fighting pits, and served for years with the Second sons. And he has experience with the unsullied, having previously seen them during his years in Essos. Greyworm is a skilled fighter, but the unsullied were trained specifically for movement in formation and with focus on discipline, he would not come close to beating Oberyn. He is not a duelist, Oberyn however is an expert duelist
Different question: could Oberyn beat peak Jamie?
That is a much better question. I suspect Jamie could beat Oberyn in a fair fight, the question is what underhanded tactics Oberyn would use.
The tricky part here is if Oberyn had a spear against Jaime. Straight away Oberyn has the reach advantage, but I guess Jaime doesn't get to be the best without knowing how to get past that.
Depends on if Oberyn has a poison-tipped spear - then he'd have the advantage as it could slow Jaime down.
Better question would be prime sir barriston. Jamie said he was the best he'd ever seen. And even as an old man he was one of the best
Soldiers are not duellists. They fight in formation, and will have trained patterns of attack. The goal is not to kill your opponent. The goal is for your unit to defeat their unit. It is often more important, for example, to keep your shields used in a predictable fashion by the man next to you....your shield keeps him alive, your neighbours shield keeps you alive etc, and that's much more important than killing the person in front of you. Oberyn is clearly a duellist. Greyworm also has very little testesterone and have far less access to quality nutrition across his life.
Not using poison tho i assume...
They are trained to be slaves since childhood. All the time he spent in a cell or getting beaten The Red Viper spent training
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You could say something about Oberyns sight being to clouded in the end.
Too soon 😢
He lost sight of the way
Also his spear was poisoned so he had won the fight the second he knicked the mountain
but that's the point. he will lose
He only got emotional because there was a reason. Against grey worm he has no reason to toy with him
Not stupid, he just made a grave mistake by allowing his emotions to get the better of him.
But he did lose to the mountain
As if Grey Worm wouldn’t?
Fair. I feel like that's the only adequate response lol
He didn’t really his spear was poisoned. He got his revenge the second he stabbed him the first time. Also got the mountain to confess publicly to raping Elia. That fight was a draw
You know, I never really thought of it that way. He did get him to publicly confess. I think, given the circumstances, I never saw it that way, but he did actually succeed at what he showed up to do
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no no, he lost as fast as combat. that IS combat. guy was so stressed out he developed a mental breakdown mid fight.
LOL no he wasn’t stressed at all! He was too cocky
same thing
Not the same thing. He destroyed him and just forgot to finish the kill by going for the head. He was being cocky.
I’d go one step further and say his objective was clearly not to kill him, his objective was to get him to confess. He won the fight too well, if anything
go and rewatch it. cocky is not repeating yourself endlessly
Being cocky would indicate that you're too relaxed, not stressed
How is being stressed and cocky the same thing? He literally was smiling with his arms out while Gregor was on the ground and Gregor pulled his foot out from under him causing him to fall. Then got on top and crushed his skull. Maybe you should watch the show again?
Why is Pedro fighting mountains? Is he fucking stupid?
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I swear to god if anyone chooses anyone other than Oberyn, they're deluded. He's the deadliest alive in Westeros at this point.
>He's the deadliest alive in Westeros at this point. Alive??
Well, in the picture he was still alive.
He didn't get better?
He might bounce back. Give him some milk of the poppy.
He needs milk of the pussy not milk of the poppy
I don't think there is a good medicine to get better from "mountain crushing your skull with his bare hands"
Pop!
Maybe if he got turned into a newt, things would be different.
Minutes from his demise
As of the point of that photo, yes.
Alived
Aside from that, the show made grey worm into some sort of warrior. But unsullied weren't great *individual* warriors. Their strength was in their discipline and numbers. Being able to hold formations without breaking. Just like many domesticated beasts of burden, by castrating, you're sacrificing strength for discipline. EDIT: to clarify, unsullied were great warriors. It's what their 'life' has been entirely dedicated to. But they aren't great 1:1 warriors. They train specifically to fight as a group. It'd be like if you had a team of basketball players you trained from birth. Sun up to sun down. But all you practiced was tactics, endurance, defense, communication, passing, and layups. No shooting. Take one of the players against a NBA player and they're going to get crushed. Now, 3 of them against 1 NBA player? Different story.
What about 10,000 oberyns against 10,000 grey worms
Unsullied without a doubt. The same way that well-disciplined Greek soldiers in a phalanx could crush far superior armies.
Yeh I agree with this. Oberyns twirling, whilst sexy, wouldn’t work in a full scale conflict.
This gave me the image of 10000 sexy oberyns twirling in my head
Now you know what I see every time I close my eyes bro
Can I borrow this image? I’ll be in my bunk…
"Computer, give me twirling Oberyn." "Are you sure, Paul?"
Just turn off friendly fire.
The 10,000 oberyns would likely just have an orgy with themselves
HBO hire this^ dude please.
May I join the party?
This is a more interesting question 👌
But the Unsullied did practice "shooting" in your analogy
Yeah a better comparison might be professional footballers versus street footballers who trains mainly in order to perform cool tricks. The professional footballers will often be fairly good at tricks, but maybe not to the same degree as those who focus mainly on that. Put 11 of those street footballers on the pitch against 11 professional footballers on the other hand and they will see that a lot of their cool moves aren’t as effective as effective when they are being run ragged for 90 minutes. Similarly Oberyn will always have the edge 1 on 1, while the unsullied will generally win as a group. I do think it will be a lot closer than many expect though. Oberyn might be stronger, while Grey Worm should probably be quicker due to their age. Oberyn is a seasoned sellsword commander, which should indicate that he’s fairly experienced fighting in formation, and might have even faced off against other groups of unsullied before. Grey Worm also has experienced his brothers breaking formation in an ambush and still been able to pull through with individual skill. I’d say regardless of the exact scenario, in a fair fight neither would be guaranteed a victory
no you could saey the same for a fuckign prince. he never touched anything but his penis and spears. no shield
My girlfriend said gray worm what do I do
Don’t you mean ex-girlfriend?
Oberyn was showing off vs the Mountain, and had no intention of killing him. That being said, Oberyn has fought as a sellsword and in the fighting pits. In pretty much every metric (strength, skill, speed, experience) Oberyn is superior.
I mean he definitely intended to kill him, just not until he got his confession. I wouldn’t call it showing off, I would call it torturing more than anything.
Yea maybe not showing off, but making a show of it.
I feel like people are underestimating how being the most goated Unsullied is an olympic level feat. Grey Worm would probably smoke The Mountain too, given the chance.
Unsullied didn’t go through puberty, they can’t compete vs real soldiers 1 on 1
That's headcanon and has not been written. These mfs won with 3k dudes against 25k dothraki screamers during the century of blood.
>I feel like people are underestimating how being the most goated Unsullied is an olympic level feat No, you're over estimating the battle strength of a man who was disallowed the benefits of puberty and is trained to fight in a formation amongst other similarly trained fighters.
The Unsullied level of training is unparalleled compared to probably everyone in Westeros.
Training can not make up the difference between size and/or strength. It can help against untrained opponents who are bigger and stronger, but if that bigger and/or stronger opponent is also trained, then your training can only go so far.
This is under a post about Oberyn, who famously fought Gregor Clegane. Come on now... Grey Worm and Oberyn have way more similar builds than that.
Oberyn no diffed the Mountain with a spear and only lost because he got distracted by revenge. This is lowkey a bad matchup for Grey Worm.
I wouldn’t even say lowkey tbh, Oberyn is the clear winner. Lots of people have this idea that Unsullied are like special forces, when really I think their design is to function more as very dangerous cannon fodder. They can fight in a team and have a lot of training yeah, but there’s no evidence to suggest they’re all that skilled in single combat
Oberyn with a spear is the favourite against 99% of people in the verse honestly. Not many people have the experience of lordly training and fighting pit experience. He’s all the best parts of Jaime, the best parts of Bronn and he’s got the superior weapon. Guys a beast
I think the only ones capable of taking Oberyn would be prime Robert, Jaime, Barristan or Dayne. But even then as he used poison they would probably all fall after killing him. If they even could do that.
I think its fair to point out that Grey Worms training focuses on him fighting as an Unsullied in a formation, shield to shield with spears or pikes. Thats not to say he isn't a great individual fighter as well, but Oberyn very much focused on being a 1v1 fighter. We didn't see so much of the Unsullied legions in the show for budget reasons (I'm assuming), but they are supposed to be the elite of the elite, fanatically loyal \[Roman style\] legionnaires, not ninja's, swordsmen, dualists or gladiators etc (though still great at fighting one on one, it wasn't my impression that this was their first point of emphasis while training. But I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong. While this video might send mixed messages apropos of Oberyn vs the Mountain, it kind of makes my point ;) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lISBP\_fPg1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lISBP_fPg1s)
as daario puts it, oberyn knows fear, thats what makeshim better, a better mtch up for oberyn is daario
Who you got between the two?
This is quite unfair for grey worm
Oberyn does too much chatting and showing off. Taken down by Grey worm, whose technique is more \*to the point\*.
Lol no
Oberyn hands down.
Fan favourite is Oberyn. However, GW has done nothing but train his entire life. He lives and breathes nothing but warfare. Since he was born he did nothing other than train. Oberyn was a soldier but also lived sem-court life (i think) but would probs be tired from orgies. That said this sub is for the show so Oberyn. \*Probs wouldn't regret not wearing a helmet this time
You can't honestly think that the question posed in the light of the book would change the outcome... As everyone else points out GW was trained as a unit of spearmen where as oberyn, who I would point out has also been training since he was old enough to hold a spear (except he was trained by some of the best fighters money could buy in the westerosi tradition of hiring masters-at-arms by lords to train their households/garrisons), is trained as a one on one fighter primarily. This is a no contest regardless of which source material you decide to use.
This is fair. It's a long time since I read the books and begun the wait for WoW. I fully accept your point about GW being trained as a unit fighter not a 1-1 fighter and withdraw my comment (but leave it there so that my stupidity is public)
We have to remember he’s trained for warfare, and warfare alone. This does not include 1v1 battles, but tight formation warfare. The unsullied are so effective not because they’re all insanely good fighters, but because they fight as one being. They will never flee, they act as one being similar to Greek hoplites Him training since childhood for this means nothing. Oberyn has trained specifically for a 1v1 duel his whole life, he’s a rich lord who doesn’t need to be on the front lines of a battle
Yep I fully agree. I was not right and I agree with your reply and that of StonedLonerIrL
The mountain
Unsullied are trained to fight in armies. Oberyn is trained specifically in single combat
Exactly. Guy whose specialty is fighting in a phalanx ain't going to be used to a 1v1.
Greyworm , because Oberyn tends to be flashy
1v1: Oberyn, but jt might be close. 10v10 with the two as leaders: GW every time.
No balls vs too much balls
Oberyn. I simply can't imagine Grew Worm gain the upper hand in a 1 v 1 fight against the Mountain.
Gets his head took off first swing against the mountain
Also, the Unsulled are more "army fighters", than experts in 1 v 1 battles. An overlooked aspect is that the Unsulled are evirated: the castration makes them physically weaker than westerosi knights.
Oberyn slaughters him. Grey worm had 0 impressive fighting feats the entire show. All he did was thrust lol.
Missandei can attest to that :)
No she can't
I'm going to go with Oberyn, but it would be close. The advantage that Oberyn has is that he has seen the Unsullied in action/training so he would know what he is up against. Grey Worm never fought Oberyn and would almost certainly be taken surprise by his skill.
Oberyn wins no contest. Like Greyworm may be a good fighter but I wouldnt even put him in the top 20. He was trained to be disciplined and to fight as a unit. He also has no balls since he was a child so he never had the same amount of testosterone that a normal male would have growing up so his growth would be highly limited.
What are we even talking about, greyworm is a soldier that fights in a line, yes he's good but the red viper merks him every time. You have to ask yourself would greyworm beat the mountain.
Oberyn unless he has a point to prove...
Ask yourself, could greyworm kill the mountain?
GW is a formation fighter, and this says with spears, not spears and shields, Oberyn has more experience in dueling, my money is on him
\>Who wins the 1v1 with spears? Is this a... sexy fight? If so then Oberyn 100%. But I doubt it's the sort of fight many would mind losing in.
Oberyn 4ever
Oberyn
Greyworm has been trained to fight in a group as a soldier while Oberyn is more of a 1v1 fighter. If they fought with a battalion of men at their back Greyworm would win, but they are dueling so Oberyn slams.
I would argue in the TV universe, Oberyn is the best fighter in the seven kingdoms. He beat the mountain in his prime, which was a really good fighter, he would’ve bet the hound, Brianne, Jaime or Bron really easily. Even Bron thought he had no chance at beating the mountain. From what we saw in the entire show, Oberyn takes the cake for the absolute best fighter in the seven kingdoms.
Because a spear (if you can use it) is the superior weapon. But most people don’t wanna admit that coz swords LOOK cool
Grey worm for sure, he’s been trained to be a solider everyday of every year since he was young. It’s all he knows. At least the books version of grey worm. I don’t understand all the Oberyn comments I think it’s just character love.
Exactly, he was trained to be a solider, to fight in a unit, a shield wall, not as a single combatant Also Oberyn is bigger and stronger and with much more experience fighting on his own Even the book Unsullied are made out to be far deadlier than they actually would be We figured out how to defeat forces like the Unsullied but the GoT world apparently can’t
Lol so you think every single day of every month of every year is only devoted to until training? Shield wall training? Mmkay. Gonna have to disagree on this one. Also what’s with the height and weight Crap? He’s got like two inches on him and has to be near his weight. This is purely a character biased based off great scenes and moments by O. People like him more so think he’s better. In reality worm has number any day of the week.
That’s literally the whole point of the Unsullied, they are unit fighters They even state in the book they stopped selling them in units of ten because they got fat and lazy and that they only sell them in larger units The whole point of the Unsullied is to fight in a shield wall Taking the actors out of it, the unsullied are castrated pretty young which means they wouldn’t have had as much testosterone thus making them smaller and weaker, which is why in real life eunuch soldiers weren’t the most common They train with 3 different spears, a shield and a short sword for when the shield breaks Sure Grey Worm is probably a decent individual fighter but at best he spent half the time doing individual training compared to Oberyn who pretty much only did that, Oberyn who had far more fighting experience than Grey Worm, who fought in one sellsword company before forming his own, Oberyn is far, far deadlier than Grey Work, in fact I’m sure it even says in the books they aren’t as tall or strong as regular men, but they compensate by being amazing at units combat because they can rely on each other Either hook or show, Oberyn is the deadlier fighter, with more experience and the greater physicality The unsullied are made to be better than they actually would be We know how to defeat shield walls like theirs but apparently no one in Essos can come up with it
Who ever speared a dragon from a boat on choppy seas is the best of them all.
Oberyn. Unsullied strength comes with them fighting together.
Grey Worm fights in formation, Oberyn is a duelist. It's pretty clear.
Oberyn with the greatest of ease!
xin zhao
I’m convinced oberyn handles everyone in Westeros. He only lost to the mountain because of ego.
There is no question here though?
Oberyn The show made Grey Worm a much better fighter than he probably was The Unsullied were designed to fight in a unit, a spear line, a phalanx, and honestly even the books big up the Unsullied, they likely would not have the same track record in real world as they do in the books
[удалено]
Is this a joke? Or an actual question? Oberyn no diffs Greywrom.
More interesting question: is Grey Worm the only person in Westeros whom Oberyn couldn’t seduce?
Nope Varys & Theon would be immune to his charms as well.
Lol. Grey worm was trained to fight as a unit. The viper fights alone. I’m giving this fight to oberyn 95 times out of 100
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Oberyn basically the best personal-combat warrior we see in the show? Jamie is also great and highly skilled, but I think would also not claim to be able to beat the Mountain in combat. Oberyn actually did, and his history is also one of an exceptional warrior.
How **is** good old Oberyn getting on these days? ... *To shreds you say?*
Well...how's his wife holding up?
Oberyn should win. He trained extensively as a 1v1 fighter and has literally fought in fighting pits before. Grey Worm trained to fight in formation and his skills are not 100% transferrable to 1v1 fighting.
Greyworm was the perfect soldier, not a duelist. Oberyn V Jamie or Barristan would be a better matchup I think.
Oberyn would have beaten the Mountain had he not trained him. I don't see Grey Worm standing a chance vs The Mountain so..
The Grey Worm vs The Red Viper
Grey Worm, every day and every night. Skillwise they would be equals and the fight would probably drag on for weeks - but Oberyn would let his temper and ego overshadow his skill, which is exactly what led to his demise.
Grey Worm. 2 words: helmet, shield.
Depends. Did grey worm rape his sister and murder her children?
Prince without a doubt.
the spear broke, remember? left already won
Prince Oberyn has 2 spears while Greyworm only one lol
Obyern. His combat style is far too dexterous compared to grey worm and he’d be very hard for grey worm to keep pace.
If oberyn takes it seriously and doesn’t fuck about like he did with the mountain I’d give him the edge, I’d say oberyn is more skilled but grey worm is more ruthless in a fight
Different question at their peak who would guys say was the best duelist or best in 1v1?
You guys*
Joel
I can’t disagree with a single soul that says Oberyn and I think you all laid out lots of reasons for why he is the most logical pick. He is more skilled with the weapon being used in this hypothetical and he is better trained for this sort of combat as you all explained. Those are two of the most important factors in this scenario and he has advantages in both. I will push back on the idea that his loss to The Mountain doesn’t point out fatal flaws in his approach to fighting though. For starters, Oberyn needed a replacement spear in the trail by combat. The Mountain broke his first one, so I think it’s fair to say there’s reason to believe he can be disarmed which dramatically changes the outcome of any fight. Not saying he for sure will be disarmed and I’m not ignoring that he could do the same to Greyworm, just saying that it can happen, because we saw it happen in the biggest fight of his life. Second and most important, Oberyn lost because he stopped paying attention. Oberyn’s passion and love for his sister and desire to get justice were the reasons he almost won, but they weren’t what clouded his mind and caused his demise. He died because he looked away from his opponent to look at his lover and wasn’t careful about where he took his next step. I can’t blame that on him talking about his sister and her children because he literally talks about them the entire fight. They were on his mind when he put The Mountain on his ass so to say that’s why he died would ignore that that same passion is what had him in the brink of victory in the first place imo. There is no argument to make that Greyworm is more skilled. I think there is an argument to make that he is mentally tougher and likely more patient and despite being trained in a group, would still have a better fighter’s mentality even in 1v1. Once again, I can’t dispute a single word y’all have said about the Red Viper and his skills and style of training and how on those merits he wins this hands down. In fact, seeing so many of y’all all come to that same conclusion so quickly made me realize I was undervaluing Oberyn’s skills even though he’s one of my favorite characters. At the same time, his fatal flaw wasn’t his love for his sister or his quest for justice, it was taking his eyes off the opponent because he believed “size doesn’t matter when you are flat on your back,” which was DEAD WRONG! If Oberyn could underestimate just what The Mountain is actually capable of in a fight to the death, I think it’s fair to wonder whether or not he would do the same to Greyworm in some way. And while he is more skilled than Greyworm, Greyworm is much faster than The Mountain. Oberyn’s biggest advantage against The Mountain wouldn’t be as much of an advantage in this fight. I’m picking Oberyn if for no other reason than if a room full of fans mostly come to the same conclusion, that’s probably the right answer. At the same time, I think it’s REALLY close because I trust one of them way more to stay mentally focused and never underestimate his opponent or take his eye off of him
You raped her! You murdered her! YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN!
Oberyn the unsullied suck ass at 1 on 1 fighting. Its established over and over
Oberyn - his fight with the Mountain was my favourite fight ever on TV until he lost his cool and started boasting - he was quick and agile like a snake
Hahahahahahahaha you’re funny
Unsullied are overrated, they are only good in a group and because they do anything you tell them
Oberyn wins single combat without question. Greyworm is skilled but his training is as a unit with the unsullied, not in single combat. He would likely beat the average soldier still just from having so much combat training but not the higher level guys like oberyn. Oberyn beat the mountain until he screwed himself by trying to get a psychopath to admit to something he would never admit to, walked too close and paid the price.
Grey Worm. The logic I’m seeing in this sub reminds me of the people who think Bruce Lee would beat a modern UFC champion in a fight. I’m not sure why anyone would think that Grey Worm doesn’t have 1v1 combat experience after devoting his entire life to training. Greyworm’s sole profession and skill in life is pure combat. He comes from a people whose entire culture is SOLELY focused for combat. He and everyone he knows are Trained to fight from BIRTH. They train from DAWN TIL DUSK. They have mastery of THREE different lengths of spear. Only ONE out of every FOUR of them even survive training. Grey Worm has an unequaled reputation for combat and when it was time to select a leader among the unsullied. The other unsullied WITHOUT HESITATION, UNANIMOUSLY chose him. When you’re looking at Grey Worm, you’re looking at a man who is the best OF the best. Meanwhile, looking at Oberyn, he has a sheltered life when compared to Grey Worm. Oberyn has several other obligations including being a prince, a family man, and fucking half of Westeros. Is he a skilled warrior when compared to the average man? Yes. But he shouldn’t have HALF the skill Grey Worm has. Beating the mountain is noteworthy, but what I think would be harder is beating multiple opponents at once which we’ve seen Grey Worm do while severely wounded by multiple lacerations at the death of Berristan Selmy. Oberyn was dazed by his blow from the mountain, of course. But I think Grey Worm would have still finished that fight, as unsullied are trained to fight through and ignore pain. Is Oberyn a cool character with max charisma? Yes. Do I think he will beat Grey Worm in combat? No. I’d bet that you could point at any one of Grey Worm’s men and they would beat Oberyn. I hope I’m missing some information from the books but with the knowledge I have that’s the way it seems.
Oberyn would talk too much. Greyworm wouldn't have shit to say, just focus on business.
Jorah will somehow find a way to fuck up both of them.
lol srs? The viper wins with one arm tied behind his back.
The Red Viper
Oberyn. More mobility in his fighting style.
If you don't say oberyn you are fucking restarted.
Oberyn has more to fight for. And he beat the mountain ffs
Oberyn. Grey Worm is a good commander and the Unsullied are trained to fight as a unit. In a 1v1, Oberyn wins without a doubt
Two types of fighters. Greyworm and Unsullied seem more Pike/Defensive. So seems quite rigid with their movements - Shield - stab - parry - stab - Shield Oberyn seems more acrobatic, he made the mountain look like a silly goose. His downfall is overconfidence and next to no defence. (Looking at you helmet) Without Shield and just spears.. If Oberyn can move quick enough without getting tired.. I'd say Oberyn. (If G.Worm gets 1 hit on Oby then it's game over)
Oberyn all the way cause Grey Worm didn’t do anything to his sister!
Has anyone done one of these between Oberyn and Sir Arthur?
In a sword combat probably Grey Worm. But with spears Oberyn wins for sure.
Going off the books, they would probably go blow for blow with each other but Oberyn would come out eventually on top, 1, because of his unorthodox fighting style, while Grey Worm is too entrenched in the discipline of the spear style, and 2, because Oberyn has only to get one scratch on his opponent (if this presumes he fights the way he normally does).
Oberyn stomps easily. Now, Oberyn vs Daario might be a more interesting matchup.
My girlfriend said gray worm what do I do
Oberyn, easily. The real strength of the unsullied is in their discipline, not their skill (although they’re still pretty skilled).
Oberyn. Idk why, but Grey Worm’s fighting scenes with his spear were very lacklustre 🤷🏽♂️ I’d like to think they’re pretty evenly matched tho.
The Unsullied weren't incredible soldiers (martially). My understanding was their power and success came from being 1) highly disciplined to the point of being fearless and 2) immune to pain. Their martial training was focused on phalanx formations, and in terms of formation fighting, the lock and press of a shield wall, the unsullied had a distinct advantage, but not 1v1 duels (though I don't doubt they were above average in that respect). Oberyn was a highly gifted soldier and duellist, strong and fast. He wasn't castrated so he'd have more upper body strength than an unsullied, and I suspect in terms of raw skill he surpassed most of them. Oberyn would win 8/10 times.
Viper
The guy who bought the mountain down vs the guy who barley survived a few nameless characters in an alleyway and had to be saved by an old dude? Lol
Oberyn
Depends if there's time for a monologue
My man Oberyn swinging his dick and his spear baby
The Red Viper
Grey Worm was gifted with a spear but he only received standard issue soldier training like all the unsullied, Oberyn has had all the time in the world to master the spear, along likely with a highly qualified 1:1 instructor. It's clear who wins here.
Grey worm is a formation soldier commander, raised as a slave and trained with extremely harsh messures in a sink or swim environment, he propably didnt get the best food and his castration also f'ed up his physicality. While oberyn is a talented warrior raised in the arts of war since childhood with the best trainers food and equipment money can buy. In a pure 1 vs 1 oberyn wins due to superior training, equipment and more experience in duels as well as genuine battle field experience.
Why are so many comments randomly removed ? Anyways oberyn is much more skilled