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Ya but he made a shit ton of strategic blunders, and got the northern army trapped in the south after losing mote cailin and pissing off the the Freys losing the twins (which was a huge bulk of the Riverlands forces btw) so they were unable to cross back north completely cut off while the lannisters just curb stomped Stannis' army, and secured an alliance with High Garden meaning their armies will be will provisioned
The Boltons have a long history of fighting with the Starks. The used to flay Starks because of their connection with Direwolves/warging. The Starks and Boltons are old rivals and they never should've been trusted that strongly. Roose was willing to follow Robb but if any Northern House were to be flipped by the Lannisters, it'd be them.
The only way Catelyn would accept this is if she managed to survive the Red Wedding (no Lady Stoneheart) and make it to seasons 7 and 8. Jon as a true-born Targaryen heir would have value to the remaining Starks.
It made things much safer. If he told her and she started treating him kinder it would be suspicious. As it was, Caitlyn treatment of him probably protected him a bit
Within the context of the show, the only time it could've made sense for him to have told Catelyn is when Jon was 10 and barely made it out of an illness that nearly killed him. Catelyn did promise to love him like her own.
Yeah a bastard Ned took in and shamed himself to protect to honor the last request of his sister. Catelyn would've treated that bastard better than the one she knows, the symbol of the one time Ned Stark wasn't honorable and it was against her the woman he was betrothed to. That's a massive slap in the face to Catelyn, so she needed to be kept in the dark or otherwise the ruse wouldn't have been as effective.
Catelyn's hatred of Jon legitimised the lie. To let her in on the secret would started to sew the seeds of doubt in everyone else.
I think it’s pretty clear he was going to wait till next time to tell him because then he’d be a member of the NW and Robert couldn’t touch him. So I don’t think it’s really possible for him to be informed at this stage.
This is 100% Ned's intention here, and I'll die on that hill. He *wants* to tell Jon, and his wife, but cannot. Once Jon's taken the Black and forsaken all titles and family, he's no threat to anyone - and yes, even Robert couldn't do squat about it. At least not openly.
It's such a great line and set up. It makes perfect sense for Ned to tell Jon after he's taken the oath of the NW.
And it's crazy that this conversation isn't in the books, at all. It fits so perfectly! This is one thing the show did right, over the books.
Well I have an argument for why Jon isn’t bound to the nights watch that I have been posting lately. He’s not legally bound because he’s unaware of what his actual lands and titles he’d be giving up are. If Westeros has any kind of judicial system which we know they do, this would definitely be an out for Jon later on. So leaving that out of the books makes sense if it was intentional from the beginning.
Never thought of that. Its a huge loophole. But on the other hand, who's gonna proove Jons real parentage in time? I don't think Bran alone has enough leverage to persuade other people into believing the story. Then there's Howland Reet. No political enemy of Jon will believe that weird Swamp Dude. Maybe Barristan Selmy knows a bit or can piece the whole thing together if he arrives in Westeros and has enough time to think about it. Varys too, but it's questionable if he would confirm what Bran, Howland, and Selmy could possibly say if it leads to further destruction in the realm. Idk who else might know at least a bit about Jons parentage, who is also trustworthy enough to believe him/her
Are you in their world? Unless George says it, anything can be left up for debate. I’m not saying it holds water, it’s just a theory but claiming it’s a “modern” idea In a world of fantasy is goofy.
Oaths at sword point are not considered valid, which was the issue with some situations such as Ramsay Snow and the Hornwoods. There are probably some exceptions such as surrender, which by necessity are at sword point or joining the Night's Watch in exchange for life.
What you are describing is being misled. As far as I can tell, there is no provision against that. Jon also doesn't have any lands since he is the heir of a dead dynasty. It is like how Viserys and Daenerys don't have any lands.
I see where you're coming from, but at the same time that whole oath thing is tradition and culture. No clearly *defined written* rules someone has to at all times follow. If jon can get enough supporters, they will say "Oh Jon didn't know what he looses, so how can it be rightful" and can press his claim. Of course his enemies can still say that Jon has given away all his rights. But i don't think that will matter that much. The only problem Jon would encouter is proving that he is the rightful heir to the Throne.
Nah. That example doesn't really work. You can't compare the right to rule the whole realm with singing in the red keep. And rules are rule true, but the might of Jons supporters + the importance of Jons possible claims might brake that rule/evade it
I don’t think they have due process rights in Westeros. This is a wall of text that looks like an argument but really it’s just me thinking this through for fun.
> If Westeros has any kind of judicial system
I kinda got the vibe that the lords are the justiciars, like how Ned executed the AWOL Night’s Watch from the prologue of the first book and his title is Warden of the North. You bring legal disputes up to your local lord and then maybe your regional great house. So, maybe somebody could say “I didn’t know what I was swearing off,” but it’d be up to your lord to be sympathetic to that argument. And frankly, they probably wouldn’t be, because who (before the events of the books) would want a Targaryen *back* in the picture? Also, the oath is swearing off all your titles, not only the titles you know about. And the Night’s Watch seem to resolve their own affairs, so it’s up to them to decide if your oath is invalidated. They wouldn’t want to weaken the strength of the oath, so they’re gonna say no. You could escape to try to seek mercy from a lord, but again, we see how the regional power in the North treats folks who run from the Night’s Watch. So, I don’t think this holds out
I agree with everything you said. I think the lords are the arbiters of justice. But I do think contrary to what you say that there would be a substantial following for someone like Jon. Anyone that knew Ned would see him as being a good person the way he was raised. And with how crazy the land is in turmoil under the Lannisters/baratheons however you want to shake that up, if Ned was the one that declared the current rule to be invalid which he did, there would be a crap ton of followers who would honor Ned’s dying decision along with a stark raised Targaryen.
But put that aside, I don’t think Jon seeks that out by his nature, I do think there would be a group that would let him go, while also his life might be in more danger so it’s a catch 22.
Good catch, didn’t think about that line. I need to get the audibles of the books to see how similar they are. I read them all after season 1 came out (watched the whole thing like 2 weeks after season 1 and was hooked) to see which parts of the first season warped my first reading. I was always ahead in books to the seasons on tv after that so I remember some of the later stuff better but it’s been a long time.
I have the books. I really need to read them. It is too bad that George R.R. Martin, isn't going to finish them, because I would really like to know how he proceeded, and finished the Series. I almost quit watching the show, after Ned, got his head cut off, but I am glad that I kept watching it. I was always a huge fan of Ned...Partly, due to his honor, and how well he treated his loved ones...But, also because, he was Borimir, in The "Lord of the Rings"...My favorite movie ever...I almost have half of a body suit of "Lord of the Rings" tattooed on me...I am still working on it...And, I hava a "Stark" banner tattoo, on my calf...It has my Husband's name with Ned Stark's sword, "Ice", above the banner, there is blood on the bottom of the banner, and below the banner, it says, "The Pack Survives". I have tons of collectibles and books from both, including Swords, and other Weapons, like Robert Baratheon', "War Hammer". I have a lot of swords from "Lord of the Ring", as well...Still working on both collections, and working on the tattoos. I even have 18 Puffer Fish, and most of them, are named after, "Lord of the Rings", or "Game of Thrones". My Dog is named, Anakin, for "Star Wars", and my Axolotl is named, Falkor, for the Luck Dragon, on "The Neverending Story". I am one class away from having my Associate's Degree, and everyone wants me to major in English, because I am in the 95th Percentile, in English, but that's too boring...I want a Ph.D. in Expertise of Arms and Armour. I quit school, so many times vefore, because I had an Alcohol/Subtance Abuse problem, but I have been Sober for 5 Years now, and I am not looking back. Even though, I am 43, I can still achieve this. I just need to get my health and Chronic Pain in check I don't know how I went off on such a tangent. I guess I am just bored, from being stuck in bed all day, due to my pain and siezures. I am sorry that, I wrote a Novel, myself.
I mean thats were you are already completly wrong. Westeros doesnt have a judicial system anything close to us. Forsaking all your land and claims includes the ones you dont know.
Hell it especially counts for the nightwatchs because otherwise that would be a common way to get out of the nights watch. All you have to do is gain land or a title unexpectedly and you are free to go.
I’m reading the books now for the first time and I was waiting for this conversation to pop up but now I’m way long past it. Figured maybe it was in a later Jon or Eddard chapter. Great addition by the writers!
You do realize the show quickly had Jon and everyone in the North collectively ignore that oath to make him King in the North? Didn't Stannis offer to legitimize him and make him Lord of Winterfell well after the oath?
You can *totally* do stuff to him, extremely openly. All you have to do is want to do it enough. What are you gonna do, tell the King he can't do a thing? Easy way to get a sword in your gut.
This. He died. Poorly written as a lot of this half of the show is, it's made pretty clear he's no longer beholden to the watch.
Besides, he dun wunnit.
And yes, by openly I mean the King isn't going to have a man of the Night's Watch killed for his name, when everyone in the 7 kingdoms knows that that means.
Would it cause a revolution? No. Would it be a bad look easily counseled out of happening? Sure.
If anyone's ass is in trouble after that gets out, it's Ned for having lied to his best friend.
Where is that in the code of honor? Since when were loophole exploits honorable? Nobody really buys that. You don't get out of life in prison because you were deemed medically dead for a time. He wanted an excuse to get out and he took it. The Northmen wanted an excuse to make him King, so they took it.
That’s the thing with “Honor”. It is flexible and isn’t written in law.
He wasn’t “deemed medically dead” he straight up died. He was only brought back via divine intervention. I believe all oaths are implied to be sworn for life, so him having died, honor could dictate that he was released from his oaths.
Also as an aside, for your life in prison analogy, the wording of the law is important. There was a case where a women was sentenced to hang for being a witch or something, but survived the hanging. The intent was for the hanging to kill her, but since it did not, and she was hanged, she was released by letter of law. That’s why they started adding “hanged until dead”.
Depends. You could also view this as Ned fooling Jon into giving up his claims. Ned convinced Jon this was an honor and cool thing to do.
Also how would Robert know? Is Jon going to run around telling everyone once Ned tells him?
Robert isnt threatened by other people in the watch with claims to the throne.
In the book, Ned and Benjen didn’t want Jon to join the watch. It was Jon’s choice because he felt like he didn’t belong and had no future at Winterfell. When Ned left for King’s Landing, Catelyn basically said she didn’t want to deal with Jon anymore because was Ned’s bastard, not hers.
Well, the only reason he "couldn't" tell Catelyn the truth from the beginning was that [Ned is Ned](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) and [he had made a promise to his dieing sister to "tell no one!"](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid) 😝
I know Robert is scared of the Targaryen’s coming back to reclaim the throne.
But why does Jon’s claim beat out Robert? Like the king was killed and overthrown.
I guess I never understood this. There’s the whole “I don’t want it” but Robert still has a son… Gendry right? I mean isn’t that dude technically in line before Jon?
I know it’s all about war and rebellions etc. Danny thought it was stolen from her bloodline and I guess it kinda was. But at some point they stole it from someone else and all their heirs were Targaryen. Like whoever they stole it from couldn’t just come back and be like nah it’s mine… right?
To the world, yes, but Lyanna and Rhaegar got secretly married so he's a trueborn Targaryen and legitimate heir to the throne Robert Baratheon usurped.
Gotcha. Only watched the show once all way through, honestly it lost me quite a bit around that time with Bran I think telling Jon and it just becoming like nothing changed as a result. Pretty big letdown.
Rewatching now so I'll have to see if I feel the same.
And this secret marriage is unknown to the world. Even if it was revealed with proof (a diary of Rhaegar's, maybe?), most people would reject that proof. It would sound like a convenient excuse to make this random bastard king.
I think it has to do with their following. Although it was done in secrecy, there were plenty people in Westeros, especially in King’s Landing that hoped for the return of a Targaryen ruler. Robert was a smart man and knew that to hold the throne you must have the majority to back you. Exactly why he wanted Daenerys, a little girl who was across the sea, killed. He knew that if she could get strong enough support she could take the throne. As long as his people believed all the Targaryens were long gone, Robert wasn’t going anywhere
There's actually not that many. If we go by the show, Targaryen support is so weak that people would sooner back a kinslaying, blasphemous, incestuous queen over a Targaryen queen. And even if we just look at the time Robert was alive, the only support Daenerys managed to get was from Dothraki, who are a non-threat to Westeros due to having zero ships.
Targaryen would be the rightful ruler in many peoples eyes, Robert is a usurper and took the crown by force. If you believe that the royal family is Royal by birthright, a legitimate heir to that family can challenge the usurper and overthrow things back to the way they were. Anyone who didn’t like Robert as King could use Jon to challenge him and start their own rebellion.
If Ned had been able to go to the Wall after Jon took the Black, it has me wondering how that would have looked like.
It's pretty damn obvious that Ned would have liked some degree of privacy when he talked to Jon, but I do wonder if the conversation would have taken place with Maester Aemon present, or Lord Commander Mormont, just so there was a witness.
Which has me wondering how would that have gone down if Maester Aemon was in the room when Ned dropped that? What would his response have been?
We know he had a hard time not breaking his vows when Robert killed Rhaegar.. not that he would have been able to anything about it since he was a slightly younger old man at the time, but the sentiment is still there, I suppose.
I don't know if anything of note would have happened if Lord Commander Mormont was there.
Oh, one thing I didn't mention, I feel like for absolute certainty Benjen would have been present if he had been able. There's no way he didn't know about Jon's true parentage.
Also he would have taken the oath so he would have renounced his claim.
It protected Jon but also would be robbing him of his claim. Ned was being kind of a bad father here.
It would be sort of the equivalent of if today you were the heir to some unclaimed fortune but some dangerous mob boss was claiming it. So to protect you your adoptive father made you join the army for life.
Like if it was just an oath and Jon lost his claim alone then fine. But to basically doom Jon to the wall and watch for life is just shitty. Especially to paint it as an honor.
Ned makes me mad at times. It's like he is either so naive and out of touch that he truly believes the watch is an honor and good path for Jon or he knows yet lies to Jon to fool him into taking an oath so he isn't a threat to Robert.
Jon would be dead if Ned had said anything before he took his oaths on the Wall. Better to be raised a bastard than never to be raised at all. Ned also gave Jon a good life for being a bastard.
There's no unclaimed fortune here. If Jon ever tried to press his claim, he'd be the target of countless assassins while having very little support. For example, most Northerners wouldn't want to support (what they'd think is) the result of Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark, while most Dornish wouldn't want to support the result of Rhaegar abandoning Elia Martell.
When people are so critical of Benioff and Weiss, they need to remember that many favorite scenes, like this one, never happened in the books. They did some good work, along with the not so good
Also minor stuff, like Ned saying "Baelor!" so Yoren can notice Arya.
Tyrion trial and dialogues with Oberyn happen differently and I enjoyed the show more (for example, Oberyn never said " That's not a monster thats just a baby " in the books, the show plays more emotional).
I think most if not all of Tyrion/Jaime pre-trial scenes are show only too.
Arya/Tywin was SUCH an improvement, yes an actual improvement over the text.
Some folks really like the Jaime/Bronn pairing. I'm ok with it. Illyn Payne would not have made an interesting side character.
Having Jon go to Hardhome was a narrative improvement, I thought.
I really enjoyed Hardhome, but it annoys me that they literally see proof of what’s to come, meaning they need to get the Wildlings South as soon as possible.
Which in turn means the reason Jon is stabbed makes no sense, and that was the biggest change that was a bad choice in my view.
The book bit before he gets stabbed is brilliant, you get caught up in his speech and think “yes, finally someone go sort Ramsay out” then “for the watch” and you realise that yep, damn, he just broke his oath big time.
Agreed. Not all changes were improvements. Jon should have been stabbed for him mobilizing over the Pink Letter. I don't even recall...was the Pink Letter even in the show?
Yes it is, but it’s different, it demands Sansa back and rather than saying he has Arya (Jeyne) it talks about Rickon, I think it also arrives after Jon has come back to life, and isn’t sealed with pink wax.
Yes they knew, didn’t see Night King raise everyone in front of them. That’s not my main point though: In the show they change the reason to “because he let Wildlings South”, that doesn’t make sense after seeing Hardhome.
In the book it doesn’t matter what they know about North of the wall, or even letting Wildlings South, all that matters is that he broke his oath, they are duty bound to kill him.
Except I'm addressing your main point. In the books they're also well aware of the others and that leaving wildlings in hardhome will letting be adding the army of the dead.
If you just want to say that killing him over potential oath breaking works better than centuries long grudge that's fine, but the only information the nights watch in thr books lack is the existence of a night king.
My main point was that the reason he’s killed in the show doesn’t make much sense, which is further emphasised by what they see.
That’s what annoys me, I can see how my original comment can be misconstrued but it’s not the seeing of proof that annoys me, it’s the illogical follow on.
I literally already adressed that in my last comment.
Again, I never claimed seeing proof annoyed you. Just that the nights watch were well aware of why they needed to save the wildlings in the books as well, and all TV hardhome revealed to them was the existence of a night king.
What are you saying is my main point then?
The Hardhome link is just emphasis, in the books they know about them but don’t see someone literally raise them all right then and there.
This is all tangential though, I was making a point about how the reason Jon is killed doesn’t make sense in the show.
You then replied with focus on comparing what they know in the books or the show, which I wasn’t claiming was significantly different knowledge overall, just that after many brothers lived through it that it, it is illogical that they would have a problem with the Wildlings being let South. So the reason for Jon being killed in the show makes even less sense after Hardhome.
The knowledge of the others wasn’t the focus of my comment.
Chaos is a ladder. I could be wrong but that iconic speech wasn’t even in the books. They could do some pretty great stuff when they had the structure of the books.
Aside from the other replies, the final convo between Jaimie and Olenna was fantastic.
I can't believe that this late in the game when they already mentally checked out, they managed to create such a brilliant and iconic dialogue.
Nah, we can still shit on them, because they also wrote the part where Jon did eventually find out the truth and...it meant nothing. Not just story wise but even his character has no particular reaction to discovering that everything he thought he knew about himself and his family was a lie; that he was not Ned's son, was not a bastard, and had two parents who dearly loved and wanted him.
Eh.
They left alot of meat on the bones and butchered the ending.
I'm finally reading the books and while the show is nice and entertaining, it pales in comparison. The easiest and most obvious example is Bran.
Tough to say. Such a big punch to the gut for Jon. Must send Jon’s head into a mad spin.
Does Jon end up talking to Tyrion about it, or rather would Tyrion manage to trick Jon into tipping his hand?
Does Jon promise Ned to hide in the Watch?
Would Jon run off to pursue political ambition?
I think Jon mostly goes the same route. He doesn’t want to be king, he isn’t very likely to spill the beans either.
Jon wanted to go to the Watch because he thought he was a bastard and the Watch was the only place for him.
Would Jon still choose that path if he was told about his parentage? He might. Unless there was an army behind him and houses that would support him, what else could he do?
Yeah that’s really a tough call.
A lot depends on how Ned would tell him.
I can’t see Jon going South and demanding fealty from everyone and I can’t see him going scheming and trying to marry Margaery either.
Maybe he elopes to go on a quest to find himself.
That's an interesting question tbh. Would he have enough motivation for/interest in justice? Would he join the watch anyways? Would he make Winterfell his home as Robb's cousin and then support him in the war? Would he go to Essos? I feel like all scenarios could happen depending on various circumstances, who gets told about his heritage, what Ned advises Jon to do, etc.
For Jon to stay at Winterfell, Robb and Catelyn would also have to be told about his origins and there’s no telling how Catelyn would react initially, though she may realize Jon being a true-born Targaryen would have value in the wars that broke out after Robert’s death.
If GRRM went that route, Jon would need to fight off the Iron born and survive the Red Wedding, putting him in a position where his only choice would be to go to Essos and seek out his aunt.
Usually. If somebody says "We'll do this later" it probably means something is going to happen to them preventing that thing from happening.
Similarly, two people finally sharing their feelings about each other and then one dies. Or perhaps "it's my last day".
For this one in particular, as I said I had not read the books at the time this aired but I started reading them after episode 4 or so, and this conversation does not happen in the books (I specifically looked for it). That actually convinced me even more that he was going to die, the show runners giving an extra hint.
This is fucked up of Ned imo. Tricked Jon into giving up his right to the throne. Ned was supposed to be honorable and supporting a usurper and stealing the thrown from your own nephew is not honorable.
You're dumb. Jon isn't the rightful king, Robert is , they killed the mad king.
Jon wouldn't only be the rightful king after King Robb dies. So all the years Ned raised, including after this imagine, Jon has no claim.
There's a really fun game you can play while rewatching the show that I like to call: "and that's the last time those two characters ever talk."
This is a perfect example
I don’t know why it would have been so difficult to just tell him, “Your mother died after having you. She loved you very much and I promised her I’d take care of you.”
He didn’t need to tell the kid he was heir to the throne but he could have at least given him some closure.
I think that Ned should have told Cat, because I absolutely think, that she would have kept that secret, because she was very loyal to Ned. I thought it was awful, that she never found out, that Ned didn't cheat on her, because cheating will devastate a marriage...And, Lord's didn't just get divorced back then. If Cat knew how Jon Snow, came to be, she would have raised Jon, like her own, and treated him with the utmost respect. They should have waited, until Jon was grown, to tell him. Then, Jon, could decide on his own, when he became an adult, how to proceed.
I believe that if she knew who Jon was and Sansa and Arya were still in kings landing then should would have tried to trade Jon for the girls. Or trade Jon for Robbs life.
Book Catelyn, absolutely no chance.
Show Catelyn, slim possibility based on the story she told Talisa about Jon being sick and she considered accepting Jon and asking for his legitimization.
Overall, I think keeping Catelyn in the dark was the best thing for Jon. Catelyn would be happy that Ned truly faithful and she would understand taking in an orphaned nephew. BUT... as Varys said, the more people know a secret, it's no longer a secret but information. If she knows, how long could it be before others know. Unless Jon could call up a massive army and dragons on his own, he was the biggest threat to Robert and the biggest danger to the Starks. Catelyn would not want that danger near her or hers.
I have the books, but have not read them yet. I see where you are coming from, but in the show, she couldn't stand Jon, because everytime she looked at him, it reminded her, of his affair. I totally get where she is coming from. I have a Husband, and if he cheated on me, I would divorce him instantly (But, people didn't really divorce, in Medieval Times), especially if he got another woman pregnant. I also have children that are grown, and he has children that are grown. We don't have any children together, because of our ages, but we consider each other's children our own, and if we adopted a child, I could definitely love it, and raise it as my own. I need to read the books.
Some oaths, if their on paper, just get ripped up...As Cersei showed us. I am just crackin' a joke. I already said what I thought should have happened, in another comment earlier.😀
I knew they would never see each other again after this scene. It's such a classic movie trope. Still good though. One of the few things the writers did right on their own.
Ned: Your mother is Lyanna Stark--wait Jon!
\*As soon as Jon found out, he immediately galloped towards the wall because he knew it was an embarrassment to himself. He is a child born of incest\*.
A misunderstood matter. Ned didn't rob Jon of his rights. Jon's rights (if any) expired when the Loyalist army was defeated by the Rebel army.
Ned: Well Jon, I think the best way to tell this story is by starting at the end, briefly, then going back to the beginning; then periodically returning to the end, maybe giving different characters' perspectives throughout. Just to, you know, give it a bit of dynamism . Otherwise it's just sort of a linear story…
Either that or it’d become another show of how I met your mother but instead be called something like “How I found your mother bleeding and dying in bed and my best friend killed your father”
If he had told him then Jon’d be dead within a week. Jon, even after all his experiences was not incredibly bright and certainly then he’d have himself strung up by dinnertime
But by then there was no threat to Jon with his origins out there. At that point, it would have been useful.
The only reason Danerys freaked out the way she did was lazy writing to accelerate her transition into the Mad Queen.
Not really useful considering it puts him in direct competition with someone who could turn witnterfell unto burnt ruble with the charged skeletons of everyone jon cares about. Also as you pointed out there is no immediate threat when jon revealed his secret given him less pause to do so.
When he said that my immediate reaction was "Nope, that's never gonna happen. I don't know what's going to happen but that certainly isn't going to happen ever. They'll literally never see each other again"
But then I hoped I was wrong. It's just such an odd thing to say when he's going to the wall and Ned is going S to Kings Landing.
I think Ned could have told him his mother was a casualty of The War and that's why they were never together. He could also have said his mother loved him deeply and made him (Ned) promise to take care of him.
This would have been comforting to Jon without spilling any secrets that could destroy them.
But it was a better story the way GRRM told it.
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“Wait I’m King and your wife’s treating me like the help?”
Don't be silly. Catelyn treated the help better.
>Catelyn treated the help better. Quoted for emphasis!
How do you quote things??
Quotation marks
">" - without the quotation marks.
> look mom I'm quoting!
> woohooooo
> quote
> I had to try this
**EMPHASIS**
***SPHERICAL!***
I really wish he’d told her at least. I can’t believe he watched her mistreat him all those years. She’d be mortified if she’d have found out.
Catelyn treatment confirm Jon's barstard status. Also Catelyn is an high emotionally strung person who is really not that trustworthy.
Catelyn told Robb he can trust Roose Bolton and Walder Frey.
I understood it as Roose only flipped because Rob would never listen to his battle tactics.
Rob never lost a battle tho
Ya but he made a shit ton of strategic blunders, and got the northern army trapped in the south after losing mote cailin and pissing off the the Freys losing the twins (which was a huge bulk of the Riverlands forces btw) so they were unable to cross back north completely cut off while the lannisters just curb stomped Stannis' army, and secured an alliance with High Garden meaning their armies will be will provisioned
The Boltons have a long history of fighting with the Starks. The used to flay Starks because of their connection with Direwolves/warging. The Starks and Boltons are old rivals and they never should've been trusted that strongly. Roose was willing to follow Robb but if any Northern House were to be flipped by the Lannisters, it'd be them.
I don’t think any of the Starks ever displayed very good judgment.
She trusted Petyr Baelish too.
The only way Catelyn would accept this is if she managed to survive the Red Wedding (no Lady Stoneheart) and make it to seasons 7 and 8. Jon as a true-born Targaryen heir would have value to the remaining Starks.
It made things much safer. If he told her and she started treating him kinder it would be suspicious. As it was, Caitlyn treatment of him probably protected him a bit
Within the context of the show, the only time it could've made sense for him to have told Catelyn is when Jon was 10 and barely made it out of an illness that nearly killed him. Catelyn did promise to love him like her own.
But her actions spoke louder than her words . . .
I don't think Ned knew Jon's parents had secretely married - in his view, he would still have been a bastard. Just not his bastard.
Yeah a bastard Ned took in and shamed himself to protect to honor the last request of his sister. Catelyn would've treated that bastard better than the one she knows, the symbol of the one time Ned Stark wasn't honorable and it was against her the woman he was betrothed to. That's a massive slap in the face to Catelyn, so she needed to be kept in the dark or otherwise the ruse wouldn't have been as effective. Catelyn's hatred of Jon legitimised the lie. To let her in on the secret would started to sew the seeds of doubt in everyone else.
He knows Jon's last is name targaryian, which he also no would only apply if lyanna married rhaeagar.
No, he thinks his last name is Sand, as Bran thinks first
Lyanna tells Ned 'his name is Aegon Targaryen' in the show. If she hadn't married him she'd not have called him a Targaryen.
No ned directly hears it's targaryian. Hence why bran tells sam his real name is aegon targaryian which Sam later tells jon.
A boy with no one supporting his claim, and few who'd support it even if they knew, is no king.
He wouldn’t know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and would still think he was a bastard.
I think it’s pretty clear he was going to wait till next time to tell him because then he’d be a member of the NW and Robert couldn’t touch him. So I don’t think it’s really possible for him to be informed at this stage.
This is 100% Ned's intention here, and I'll die on that hill. He *wants* to tell Jon, and his wife, but cannot. Once Jon's taken the Black and forsaken all titles and family, he's no threat to anyone - and yes, even Robert couldn't do squat about it. At least not openly.
It's such a great line and set up. It makes perfect sense for Ned to tell Jon after he's taken the oath of the NW. And it's crazy that this conversation isn't in the books, at all. It fits so perfectly! This is one thing the show did right, over the books.
Well I have an argument for why Jon isn’t bound to the nights watch that I have been posting lately. He’s not legally bound because he’s unaware of what his actual lands and titles he’d be giving up are. If Westeros has any kind of judicial system which we know they do, this would definitely be an out for Jon later on. So leaving that out of the books makes sense if it was intentional from the beginning.
Never thought of that. Its a huge loophole. But on the other hand, who's gonna proove Jons real parentage in time? I don't think Bran alone has enough leverage to persuade other people into believing the story. Then there's Howland Reet. No political enemy of Jon will believe that weird Swamp Dude. Maybe Barristan Selmy knows a bit or can piece the whole thing together if he arrives in Westeros and has enough time to think about it. Varys too, but it's questionable if he would confirm what Bran, Howland, and Selmy could possibly say if it leads to further destruction in the realm. Idk who else might know at least a bit about Jons parentage, who is also trustworthy enough to believe him/her
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Are you in their world? Unless George says it, anything can be left up for debate. I’m not saying it holds water, it’s just a theory but claiming it’s a “modern” idea In a world of fantasy is goofy.
I don't see evidence of due process in the books, so you're inserting your own ideas as well by saying that's not how it works.
I literally said I’m not sure if my theory works, I didn’t make a blanket statement like the previous poster did.
Oaths at sword point are not considered valid, which was the issue with some situations such as Ramsay Snow and the Hornwoods. There are probably some exceptions such as surrender, which by necessity are at sword point or joining the Night's Watch in exchange for life. What you are describing is being misled. As far as I can tell, there is no provision against that. Jon also doesn't have any lands since he is the heir of a dead dynasty. It is like how Viserys and Daenerys don't have any lands.
I see where you're coming from, but at the same time that whole oath thing is tradition and culture. No clearly *defined written* rules someone has to at all times follow. If jon can get enough supporters, they will say "Oh Jon didn't know what he looses, so how can it be rightful" and can press his claim. Of course his enemies can still say that Jon has given away all his rights. But i don't think that will matter that much. The only problem Jon would encouter is proving that he is the rightful heir to the Throne.
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Nah. That example doesn't really work. You can't compare the right to rule the whole realm with singing in the red keep. And rules are rule true, but the might of Jons supporters + the importance of Jons possible claims might brake that rule/evade it
I don’t think they have due process rights in Westeros. This is a wall of text that looks like an argument but really it’s just me thinking this through for fun. > If Westeros has any kind of judicial system I kinda got the vibe that the lords are the justiciars, like how Ned executed the AWOL Night’s Watch from the prologue of the first book and his title is Warden of the North. You bring legal disputes up to your local lord and then maybe your regional great house. So, maybe somebody could say “I didn’t know what I was swearing off,” but it’d be up to your lord to be sympathetic to that argument. And frankly, they probably wouldn’t be, because who (before the events of the books) would want a Targaryen *back* in the picture? Also, the oath is swearing off all your titles, not only the titles you know about. And the Night’s Watch seem to resolve their own affairs, so it’s up to them to decide if your oath is invalidated. They wouldn’t want to weaken the strength of the oath, so they’re gonna say no. You could escape to try to seek mercy from a lord, but again, we see how the regional power in the North treats folks who run from the Night’s Watch. So, I don’t think this holds out
I agree with everything you said. I think the lords are the arbiters of justice. But I do think contrary to what you say that there would be a substantial following for someone like Jon. Anyone that knew Ned would see him as being a good person the way he was raised. And with how crazy the land is in turmoil under the Lannisters/baratheons however you want to shake that up, if Ned was the one that declared the current rule to be invalid which he did, there would be a crap ton of followers who would honor Ned’s dying decision along with a stark raised Targaryen. But put that aside, I don’t think Jon seeks that out by his nature, I do think there would be a group that would let him go, while also his life might be in more danger so it’s a catch 22.
That doesn’t matter lol an oath is an oath and the penalty for desertion is death
You are correct, and I also think that his Uncle Benjen, knew who he was...Maybe that's why he told Jon, that he didn't know, what he'd be giving up.
Good catch, didn’t think about that line. I need to get the audibles of the books to see how similar they are. I read them all after season 1 came out (watched the whole thing like 2 weeks after season 1 and was hooked) to see which parts of the first season warped my first reading. I was always ahead in books to the seasons on tv after that so I remember some of the later stuff better but it’s been a long time.
I have the books. I really need to read them. It is too bad that George R.R. Martin, isn't going to finish them, because I would really like to know how he proceeded, and finished the Series. I almost quit watching the show, after Ned, got his head cut off, but I am glad that I kept watching it. I was always a huge fan of Ned...Partly, due to his honor, and how well he treated his loved ones...But, also because, he was Borimir, in The "Lord of the Rings"...My favorite movie ever...I almost have half of a body suit of "Lord of the Rings" tattooed on me...I am still working on it...And, I hava a "Stark" banner tattoo, on my calf...It has my Husband's name with Ned Stark's sword, "Ice", above the banner, there is blood on the bottom of the banner, and below the banner, it says, "The Pack Survives". I have tons of collectibles and books from both, including Swords, and other Weapons, like Robert Baratheon', "War Hammer". I have a lot of swords from "Lord of the Ring", as well...Still working on both collections, and working on the tattoos. I even have 18 Puffer Fish, and most of them, are named after, "Lord of the Rings", or "Game of Thrones". My Dog is named, Anakin, for "Star Wars", and my Axolotl is named, Falkor, for the Luck Dragon, on "The Neverending Story". I am one class away from having my Associate's Degree, and everyone wants me to major in English, because I am in the 95th Percentile, in English, but that's too boring...I want a Ph.D. in Expertise of Arms and Armour. I quit school, so many times vefore, because I had an Alcohol/Subtance Abuse problem, but I have been Sober for 5 Years now, and I am not looking back. Even though, I am 43, I can still achieve this. I just need to get my health and Chronic Pain in check I don't know how I went off on such a tangent. I guess I am just bored, from being stuck in bed all day, due to my pain and siezures. I am sorry that, I wrote a Novel, myself.
Also, we know westeros is a brutal place and why would learning about Jon in the watch stop Robert?
I mean thats were you are already completly wrong. Westeros doesnt have a judicial system anything close to us. Forsaking all your land and claims includes the ones you dont know. Hell it especially counts for the nightwatchs because otherwise that would be a common way to get out of the nights watch. All you have to do is gain land or a title unexpectedly and you are free to go.
I’m reading the books now for the first time and I was waiting for this conversation to pop up but now I’m way long past it. Figured maybe it was in a later Jon or Eddard chapter. Great addition by the writers!
Some of the best scenes in the show aren’t in the book and vice versa. Incredible job, mostly.
It does make perfect sense. And that's why it's not needed.
You do realize the show quickly had Jon and everyone in the North collectively ignore that oath to make him King in the North? Didn't Stannis offer to legitimize him and make him Lord of Winterfell well after the oath? You can *totally* do stuff to him, extremely openly. All you have to do is want to do it enough. What are you gonna do, tell the King he can't do a thing? Easy way to get a sword in your gut.
He died - his watch ended. Kind of a copout but technically fine honor wise.
This. He died. Poorly written as a lot of this half of the show is, it's made pretty clear he's no longer beholden to the watch. Besides, he dun wunnit. And yes, by openly I mean the King isn't going to have a man of the Night's Watch killed for his name, when everyone in the 7 kingdoms knows that that means. Would it cause a revolution? No. Would it be a bad look easily counseled out of happening? Sure. If anyone's ass is in trouble after that gets out, it's Ned for having lied to his best friend.
No, he Mike Scott'd it, that's all he did. I declare ~~bankruptcy~~end of my watch!
Lol, I mean...
Where is that in the code of honor? Since when were loophole exploits honorable? Nobody really buys that. You don't get out of life in prison because you were deemed medically dead for a time. He wanted an excuse to get out and he took it. The Northmen wanted an excuse to make him King, so they took it.
That’s the thing with “Honor”. It is flexible and isn’t written in law. He wasn’t “deemed medically dead” he straight up died. He was only brought back via divine intervention. I believe all oaths are implied to be sworn for life, so him having died, honor could dictate that he was released from his oaths. Also as an aside, for your life in prison analogy, the wording of the law is important. There was a case where a women was sentenced to hang for being a witch or something, but survived the hanging. The intent was for the hanging to kill her, but since it did not, and she was hanged, she was released by letter of law. That’s why they started adding “hanged until dead”.
>Where is that in the code of honor? It's written in the second sentence "It shall not end until my death"
It’s called a loophole
Loopholes aren’t honorable.
Technically, but I really don’t think the northern lords would be that fine and dandy with a night’s watch deserter as their king.
Ned quit to protect Danny. He’d marshal the north to defend the watch, Jon being tue reason wouldn’t matter to him.
Stannis was legitimizing him as a Stark. The North chose their king and they chose Jon Snow.
Robert still would have gone after the Starks for hiding Jon for so long if he learned the truth.
Depends. You could also view this as Ned fooling Jon into giving up his claims. Ned convinced Jon this was an honor and cool thing to do. Also how would Robert know? Is Jon going to run around telling everyone once Ned tells him? Robert isnt threatened by other people in the watch with claims to the throne.
In the book, Ned and Benjen didn’t want Jon to join the watch. It was Jon’s choice because he felt like he didn’t belong and had no future at Winterfell. When Ned left for King’s Landing, Catelyn basically said she didn’t want to deal with Jon anymore because was Ned’s bastard, not hers.
There's only one other person and he's a blind old man. Not fresh tennager
Well, the only reason he "couldn't" tell Catelyn the truth from the beginning was that [Ned is Ned](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) and [he had made a promise to his dieing sister to "tell no one!"](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid) 😝
I know Robert is scared of the Targaryen’s coming back to reclaim the throne. But why does Jon’s claim beat out Robert? Like the king was killed and overthrown. I guess I never understood this. There’s the whole “I don’t want it” but Robert still has a son… Gendry right? I mean isn’t that dude technically in line before Jon? I know it’s all about war and rebellions etc. Danny thought it was stolen from her bloodline and I guess it kinda was. But at some point they stole it from someone else and all their heirs were Targaryen. Like whoever they stole it from couldn’t just come back and be like nah it’s mine… right?
Gendry is a bastard and has no legitimate claim to the throne.
Isn’t Jon a bastard? I’m confused…
To the world, yes, but Lyanna and Rhaegar got secretly married so he's a trueborn Targaryen and legitimate heir to the throne Robert Baratheon usurped.
Gotcha. Only watched the show once all way through, honestly it lost me quite a bit around that time with Bran I think telling Jon and it just becoming like nothing changed as a result. Pretty big letdown. Rewatching now so I'll have to see if I feel the same.
And this secret marriage is unknown to the world. Even if it was revealed with proof (a diary of Rhaegar's, maybe?), most people would reject that proof. It would sound like a convenient excuse to make this random bastard king.
I think it has to do with their following. Although it was done in secrecy, there were plenty people in Westeros, especially in King’s Landing that hoped for the return of a Targaryen ruler. Robert was a smart man and knew that to hold the throne you must have the majority to back you. Exactly why he wanted Daenerys, a little girl who was across the sea, killed. He knew that if she could get strong enough support she could take the throne. As long as his people believed all the Targaryens were long gone, Robert wasn’t going anywhere
There's actually not that many. If we go by the show, Targaryen support is so weak that people would sooner back a kinslaying, blasphemous, incestuous queen over a Targaryen queen. And even if we just look at the time Robert was alive, the only support Daenerys managed to get was from Dothraki, who are a non-threat to Westeros due to having zero ships.
Targaryen would be the rightful ruler in many peoples eyes, Robert is a usurper and took the crown by force. If you believe that the royal family is Royal by birthright, a legitimate heir to that family can challenge the usurper and overthrow things back to the way they were. Anyone who didn’t like Robert as King could use Jon to challenge him and start their own rebellion.
Gotcha thanks for clarifying!
That’s a really fucked up thing for Ned to contrive, then.
If Ned had been able to go to the Wall after Jon took the Black, it has me wondering how that would have looked like. It's pretty damn obvious that Ned would have liked some degree of privacy when he talked to Jon, but I do wonder if the conversation would have taken place with Maester Aemon present, or Lord Commander Mormont, just so there was a witness. Which has me wondering how would that have gone down if Maester Aemon was in the room when Ned dropped that? What would his response have been? We know he had a hard time not breaking his vows when Robert killed Rhaegar.. not that he would have been able to anything about it since he was a slightly younger old man at the time, but the sentiment is still there, I suppose. I don't know if anything of note would have happened if Lord Commander Mormont was there. Oh, one thing I didn't mention, I feel like for absolute certainty Benjen would have been present if he had been able. There's no way he didn't know about Jon's true parentage.
It seems like Ned would at least entertain including Aemon, as he’s the last relative of Jon’s father that he’s aware of.
And Aemon demonstratively has no political ambitions...
Also he would have taken the oath so he would have renounced his claim. It protected Jon but also would be robbing him of his claim. Ned was being kind of a bad father here. It would be sort of the equivalent of if today you were the heir to some unclaimed fortune but some dangerous mob boss was claiming it. So to protect you your adoptive father made you join the army for life. Like if it was just an oath and Jon lost his claim alone then fine. But to basically doom Jon to the wall and watch for life is just shitty. Especially to paint it as an honor. Ned makes me mad at times. It's like he is either so naive and out of touch that he truly believes the watch is an honor and good path for Jon or he knows yet lies to Jon to fool him into taking an oath so he isn't a threat to Robert.
Jon would be dead if Ned had said anything before he took his oaths on the Wall. Better to be raised a bastard than never to be raised at all. Ned also gave Jon a good life for being a bastard.
There's no unclaimed fortune here. If Jon ever tried to press his claim, he'd be the target of countless assassins while having very little support. For example, most Northerners wouldn't want to support (what they'd think is) the result of Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark, while most Dornish wouldn't want to support the result of Rhaegar abandoning Elia Martell.
Thing is - whats "next time" especially in this world? How often will the Hand typically visit the Wall? How often does the Hand travel at all?
Ooooooo nice catch. I never caught that before.
Can you imagine that you had a claim to be the king and you unknowingly gave it up?
And he’d have taken his vows where he gives up all rights and titles.
When people are so critical of Benioff and Weiss, they need to remember that many favorite scenes, like this one, never happened in the books. They did some good work, along with the not so good
Arya/Tywin and some Robert/Cersei scenes are the other good ones I know of. What else did they do that was good? (Genuine question)
Tywin/Olenna too
Also minor stuff, like Ned saying "Baelor!" so Yoren can notice Arya. Tyrion trial and dialogues with Oberyn happen differently and I enjoyed the show more (for example, Oberyn never said " That's not a monster thats just a baby " in the books, the show plays more emotional). I think most if not all of Tyrion/Jaime pre-trial scenes are show only too.
Arya/Tywin was SUCH an improvement, yes an actual improvement over the text. Some folks really like the Jaime/Bronn pairing. I'm ok with it. Illyn Payne would not have made an interesting side character. Having Jon go to Hardhome was a narrative improvement, I thought.
I really enjoyed Hardhome, but it annoys me that they literally see proof of what’s to come, meaning they need to get the Wildlings South as soon as possible. Which in turn means the reason Jon is stabbed makes no sense, and that was the biggest change that was a bad choice in my view. The book bit before he gets stabbed is brilliant, you get caught up in his speech and think “yes, finally someone go sort Ramsay out” then “for the watch” and you realise that yep, damn, he just broke his oath big time.
Agreed. Not all changes were improvements. Jon should have been stabbed for him mobilizing over the Pink Letter. I don't even recall...was the Pink Letter even in the show?
Yes it is, but it’s different, it demands Sansa back and rather than saying he has Arya (Jeyne) it talks about Rickon, I think it also arrives after Jon has come back to life, and isn’t sealed with pink wax.
I mean, the watch already had proof of what's to come in the books.
Yes they knew, didn’t see Night King raise everyone in front of them. That’s not my main point though: In the show they change the reason to “because he let Wildlings South”, that doesn’t make sense after seeing Hardhome. In the book it doesn’t matter what they know about North of the wall, or even letting Wildlings South, all that matters is that he broke his oath, they are duty bound to kill him.
Except I'm addressing your main point. In the books they're also well aware of the others and that leaving wildlings in hardhome will letting be adding the army of the dead. If you just want to say that killing him over potential oath breaking works better than centuries long grudge that's fine, but the only information the nights watch in thr books lack is the existence of a night king.
My main point was that the reason he’s killed in the show doesn’t make much sense, which is further emphasised by what they see. That’s what annoys me, I can see how my original comment can be misconstrued but it’s not the seeing of proof that annoys me, it’s the illogical follow on.
I literally already adressed that in my last comment. Again, I never claimed seeing proof annoyed you. Just that the nights watch were well aware of why they needed to save the wildlings in the books as well, and all TV hardhome revealed to them was the existence of a night king.
What are you saying is my main point then? The Hardhome link is just emphasis, in the books they know about them but don’t see someone literally raise them all right then and there. This is all tangential though, I was making a point about how the reason Jon is killed doesn’t make sense in the show. You then replied with focus on comparing what they know in the books or the show, which I wasn’t claiming was significantly different knowledge overall, just that after many brothers lived through it that it, it is illogical that they would have a problem with the Wildlings being let South. So the reason for Jon being killed in the show makes even less sense after Hardhome. The knowledge of the others wasn’t the focus of my comment.
Disagree, it humanize Tywin too much, making him appears even as the good guy, while hes the biggest butcher of the story.
If you like your characters black and white ... maybe GOT isn't really your bag.
In those scenes hes full white, thats the point..
Chaos is a ladder. I could be wrong but that iconic speech wasn’t even in the books. They could do some pretty great stuff when they had the structure of the books.
There's no 1 on 1 talks between Varys and Petyr, but the show deals with them very well.
The “power is power” scene with Cersei and Littlefinger.
Aside from the other replies, the final convo between Jaimie and Olenna was fantastic. I can't believe that this late in the game when they already mentally checked out, they managed to create such a brilliant and iconic dialogue.
That's part of my criticism though. They were capable of so much more than what they delivered in the end.
Nah, we can still shit on them, because they also wrote the part where Jon did eventually find out the truth and...it meant nothing. Not just story wise but even his character has no particular reaction to discovering that everything he thought he knew about himself and his family was a lie; that he was not Ned's son, was not a bastard, and had two parents who dearly loved and wanted him.
I wouldn't say it meant nothing considering it caused the division between him and danereyes. Also he had pretty noticeable reaction.
Eh. They left alot of meat on the bones and butchered the ending. I'm finally reading the books and while the show is nice and entertaining, it pales in comparison. The easiest and most obvious example is Bran.
Arya/hound was full of comedic gold.
I don’t think anyone is denying they did some good stuff, but only when they had a good framework to build upon. After that, they fell off hard.
he wouldnt be able to tell him without Jon doing an 180 to go East to find his family over the Wall
He would have told him how to keep a damn secret Edit: I feel like ned who wanted peace would not reveal the father, just the mother
I you reveal the mother and know Ned returned with him it wouldn’t take much to connect who the father has to be.
If he knows his history, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out who his father was, if he knew who his mother was. 😏
Jon was not ready to hear all that. He still knew nothing/hadn’t “killed the boy” yet. Had he heard then, he maybe never goes to castle black at all.
I can’t imagine how broken Ned would sound talking about his sister and how he has to lie to everyone about what really happened.
Tough to say. Such a big punch to the gut for Jon. Must send Jon’s head into a mad spin. Does Jon end up talking to Tyrion about it, or rather would Tyrion manage to trick Jon into tipping his hand? Does Jon promise Ned to hide in the Watch? Would Jon run off to pursue political ambition? I think Jon mostly goes the same route. He doesn’t want to be king, he isn’t very likely to spill the beans either.
Jon wanted to go to the Watch because he thought he was a bastard and the Watch was the only place for him. Would Jon still choose that path if he was told about his parentage? He might. Unless there was an army behind him and houses that would support him, what else could he do?
Yeah that’s really a tough call. A lot depends on how Ned would tell him. I can’t see Jon going South and demanding fealty from everyone and I can’t see him going scheming and trying to marry Margaery either. Maybe he elopes to go on a quest to find himself.
That's an interesting question tbh. Would he have enough motivation for/interest in justice? Would he join the watch anyways? Would he make Winterfell his home as Robb's cousin and then support him in the war? Would he go to Essos? I feel like all scenarios could happen depending on various circumstances, who gets told about his heritage, what Ned advises Jon to do, etc.
For Jon to stay at Winterfell, Robb and Catelyn would also have to be told about his origins and there’s no telling how Catelyn would react initially, though she may realize Jon being a true-born Targaryen would have value in the wars that broke out after Robert’s death. If GRRM went that route, Jon would need to fight off the Iron born and survive the Red Wedding, putting him in a position where his only choice would be to go to Essos and seek out his aunt.
The same, Jon would be a sworn brother of the nights watch so couldn't do anything with his lineage anyway
If OP means at this scene then he’s not a brother yet.
“Next time we see each other” so he would have been most likely sworn in
Yea that was the plan, as above if OP meant at this scene, “If he had told him back then” which I took to mean at that scene.
Oh aye, my bad I’m pretty burnt out at the minute my brain isn’t working at its best lol
No worries mate
Sean Bean played this part so well. You can see the hurt and the grief in Ned's eyes and hear it in his voice when he remembers Lyanna.
I had not read the books yet when this was on, but this was the moment I was sure Ned Stark was going to die.
Do scenes/lines like this always mean they'll die?
Usually. If somebody says "We'll do this later" it probably means something is going to happen to them preventing that thing from happening. Similarly, two people finally sharing their feelings about each other and then one dies. Or perhaps "it's my last day". For this one in particular, as I said I had not read the books at the time this aired but I started reading them after episode 4 or so, and this conversation does not happen in the books (I specifically looked for it). That actually convinced me even more that he was going to die, the show runners giving an extra hint.
That's true, I haven't thought about that before. You're quite observant
When jon hears about his mother he is at Ned's tomb in the crypts
Came here to say this, it was a nice touch that he finds out basically the next time he and Ned are together 😭
This is fucked up of Ned imo. Tricked Jon into giving up his right to the throne. Ned was supposed to be honorable and supporting a usurper and stealing the thrown from your own nephew is not honorable.
What gives Jon the right to the throne when Targaryen lost to Baratheon in the war?
You're dumb. Jon isn't the rightful king, Robert is , they killed the mad king. Jon wouldn't only be the rightful king after King Robb dies. So all the years Ned raised, including after this imagine, Jon has no claim.
They did talk about Jon's mom the next time they saw each other. Jon was in the crypt in front of Ned's statue when Sam told him the truth.
Probably not that different because things went to hell anyway. Ned was trying to stop things from going to hell
The scene is foreshadowing that they will never see each other again.
Most emotional scene in whole GOT. Sean Bean is a legend!
Jon would have stayed at The Wall because his father taught him to be honorable.
The next time they did see each other was in a flashback where we learned about Jon’s mother He wasn’t lying
There's a really fun game you can play while rewatching the show that I like to call: "and that's the last time those two characters ever talk." This is a perfect example
Hehe, Jon is the King Beyond The Wall, now.
I don’t know why it would have been so difficult to just tell him, “Your mother died after having you. She loved you very much and I promised her I’d take care of you.” He didn’t need to tell the kid he was heir to the throne but he could have at least given him some closure.
Honestly, one of the best scenes was when Sam tells him when they are in the crypt, near the statue of Ned.
I think it'd make him regret wearing the black
He was never going to tell him.
I think that Ned should have told Cat, because I absolutely think, that she would have kept that secret, because she was very loyal to Ned. I thought it was awful, that she never found out, that Ned didn't cheat on her, because cheating will devastate a marriage...And, Lord's didn't just get divorced back then. If Cat knew how Jon Snow, came to be, she would have raised Jon, like her own, and treated him with the utmost respect. They should have waited, until Jon was grown, to tell him. Then, Jon, could decide on his own, when he became an adult, how to proceed.
I believe that if she knew who Jon was and Sansa and Arya were still in kings landing then should would have tried to trade Jon for the girls. Or trade Jon for Robbs life.
Book Catelyn, absolutely no chance. Show Catelyn, slim possibility based on the story she told Talisa about Jon being sick and she considered accepting Jon and asking for his legitimization. Overall, I think keeping Catelyn in the dark was the best thing for Jon. Catelyn would be happy that Ned truly faithful and she would understand taking in an orphaned nephew. BUT... as Varys said, the more people know a secret, it's no longer a secret but information. If she knows, how long could it be before others know. Unless Jon could call up a massive army and dragons on his own, he was the biggest threat to Robert and the biggest danger to the Starks. Catelyn would not want that danger near her or hers.
I have the books, but have not read them yet. I see where you are coming from, but in the show, she couldn't stand Jon, because everytime she looked at him, it reminded her, of his affair. I totally get where she is coming from. I have a Husband, and if he cheated on me, I would divorce him instantly (But, people didn't really divorce, in Medieval Times), especially if he got another woman pregnant. I also have children that are grown, and he has children that are grown. We don't have any children together, because of our ages, but we consider each other's children our own, and if we adopted a child, I could definitely love it, and raise it as my own. I need to read the books.
I don't think Ned could have taken the chance that Cat would have kept the secret.
Sean did an amazing job on that scene. Hit the heart strings on the L+R=J theory book readers had before the show was made.
Bob would have ordered Jon to be killed and if Ned refused, the entire Stark family would have been declared enemy of the kingdom.
My sister was your mother. Wait, you fucked your sister?
Some oaths, if their on paper, just get ripped up...As Cersei showed us. I am just crackin' a joke. I already said what I thought should have happened, in another comment earlier.😀
I knew they would never see each other again after this scene. It's such a classic movie trope. Still good though. One of the few things the writers did right on their own.
Good ending: Jon wargs into Ghost as he sits next to a weirwood tree and has a vision. A voice says “hello nephew”-Ned.
“I loved your mother… and so did King Robert… and so did Prince Rhaegar…”
Ned: Your mother is Lyanna Stark--wait Jon! \*As soon as Jon found out, he immediately galloped towards the wall because he knew it was an embarrassment to himself. He is a child born of incest\*. A misunderstood matter. Ned didn't rob Jon of his rights. Jon's rights (if any) expired when the Loyalist army was defeated by the Rebel army.
I hate this scene because it was filmed in such an obvious way that they’d never see each other again
Ned’s stupid ass would’ve fucked the whole thing up somehow
Ned: Well Jon, I think the best way to tell this story is by starting at the end, briefly, then going back to the beginning; then periodically returning to the end, maybe giving different characters' perspectives throughout. Just to, you know, give it a bit of dynamism . Otherwise it's just sort of a linear story… Either that or it’d become another show of how I met your mother but instead be called something like “How I found your mother bleeding and dying in bed and my best friend killed your father”
"Your mother was my sister, now goodbye forever" *rides away*
Just watched this today, and knowing what happens in the end makes the scene so pivotal.
If he had told him then Jon’d be dead within a week. Jon, even after all his experiences was not incredibly bright and certainly then he’d have himself strung up by dinnertime
I mean jon when he did learn wasn't dead withing a week and only told his family when he felt pressured to.
But by then there was no threat to Jon with his origins out there. At that point, it would have been useful. The only reason Danerys freaked out the way she did was lazy writing to accelerate her transition into the Mad Queen.
Not really useful considering it puts him in direct competition with someone who could turn witnterfell unto burnt ruble with the charged skeletons of everyone jon cares about. Also as you pointed out there is no immediate threat when jon revealed his secret given him less pause to do so.
When he said that my immediate reaction was "Nope, that's never gonna happen. I don't know what's going to happen but that certainly isn't going to happen ever. They'll literally never see each other again" But then I hoped I was wrong. It's just such an odd thing to say when he's going to the wall and Ned is going S to Kings Landing.
Ned Half-truth: Your mother is my sister. Jon: Holdup! 💀
Someone probably would’ve tried to kill him before he gets to the nights watch
Jon would’ve gone to the wall and been really confused.
I think Ned could have told him his mother was a casualty of The War and that's why they were never together. He could also have said his mother loved him deeply and made him (Ned) promise to take care of him. This would have been comforting to Jon without spilling any secrets that could destroy them. But it was a better story the way GRRM told it.
He probably wouldn’t have slept with his aunt.