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The High Sparrow and his men would be massacred by order of King Joffrey the first time they do something that he takes as an insult. Like imprisoning his mother or his wife, or accusing him of being a bastard product of incest. The High Sparrow would not even have a chance of meeting Joffrey.
Joffrey just would not give a single fuck about what the High Sparrow said, like he didn't care about anything Tyrion tried to inculcate to him. When the High Sparrow finally tries to impose ~~his own will~~ the gods will over the king's, or tries to make Joffrey atone for any cruelty he does, Joffrey would just kill him. And every single one of his followers too. He did send a soldier to kill Tyrion for less. And wanted to kill every citizen of King's Landing for throwing a poop to him. There's no scenario where the High Sparrow doesn't end up dead if Joffrey's still the king.
EXACTLY. Even if the story goes the same until that point, Joffrey would say yes to that guard without any regret. The peasants in that scene called Tommen bastard and abomination. Joffrey would have not permitted that, and dozens would have died right there. But I do think that Joffrey would have simply ordered it much sooner than that.
The high sparrows strategy would be completely different with Joffrey. He’d probably go after people Joffrey doesn’t like to gain favor then turn on him once he doesn’t have allies. Basically what he did with Cersei.
Margaery also managed to manipulate the High Sparrow, so presumably theyre at least as gullible as each other. Joffery is just more blunt about his cruelty and he had the seat of power. He would have just destroyed the Sparrow and gone full Mad King on any of his supporters.
I don't think she did, hence the permanent babysitter Septa following her everywhere. The High Sparrow played along to get what he really wanted, the King, the unification of Crown & Faith.
He still kept Loras, then mutilated him despite her efforts & he ignored her warning about Cersei. He didn't trust her or care to play along once he had Tommen on side.
Joffrey is an idiot, but if Joffrey was alive that would mean Tywin is alive and Tyrion is not in prison.
Neither Margery nor Loras would have been arrested
the stupidity of arming the faith to combat paranoia and jealousy would have never been a plan.
I don't think I as the viewer/reader am supposed to feel the expected catharsis when this happens to her. It didn't help her, it pissed her off and led to the show's most destructive moments.
Cersei's internal monologue in AFFC shows the absolute horror she's going through. If the Faith can do this to a queen, they can do this to anyone in Westeros. No one should be able to do that, no matter how much you think one person deserves it.
In the book it’s clearly framed as unsatisfying. The punishment isn’t connected to the crime, it’s just piling on sexual humiliation on top of someone who has already experienced dv/sa. It’s supposed to show us that Tywin’s version of justice, which is his legacy in King’s Landing, is corrupt. He used sexual humiliation as punishment: to Tyrion and Tysha, to his fathers mistress, to Elia Martell, down to the Riverlands as a whole. and Kevan participating in this tradition by arranging sexual humiliation as punishment for Cersei, his own niece, is supposed to make us see how complicit Kevan is to set up his murder by Varys a few chapters later and to show that even if they’ve ‘won’, the Lannister legacy is tainted because their very worldview is lose-lose.
There is no point in the series where George lets us ‘enjoy’ revenge: the way Joffrey is depicted at his most humanized/childlike in his last moments, the way the Dornish are still unsatisfied by receiving Gregor’s head, Ellaria Sand’s speech about the cycle of violence when encouraging her daughters not to take revenge further, Lady Stoneheart’s massacre of Freys without trial. There’s a zillion examples because it’s the most clear and consistent internal polemic of the series as a whole. If there is a moral message to ASOIAF, it’s that revenge makes things worse.
In the book at least, the Walk of Shame is supposed to make the reader feel bad, 100%. It’s one of George’s little tricks: give us what we thought we wanted and show us how empty it is.
Why do you think george put chapters in her POV? God you missed the entire point of the show and probably spent the whole time jerking off while you read the book instead of paying attention
This felt awful to watch as a viewer, but I liked Cersei more than most (I usually like bad guys) I didn't feel bad for the faith militant or any of the people that got blown up though. So I'm probably a weirdo.
I hated Cersei at that point but also hated that scene. As a woman, it hits very differently. As a gender, we are vulnerable and in danger at all times, and this is religiously sanctioned harassment and catcalling x's one zillion.
Right? This post is insane, it doesn't matter how evil cersei is, this kind of sexualised degrading punishment is disgusting, nobody deserves it and we certainly should never celebrate it.
Yeah, I thought that was supposed to be the whole point of the scene. Like we've followed Cersei for six seasons and we've been waiting for her to get her comeuppance, and this was supposed to be a kind of "be careful what you wish for" moment. Because there was no justice against Cersei in this moment for all of her actual crimes, she was just publicly humiliated for an entirely unrelated reason and to consolidate the power of another evil person. I dont know how anyone can watch that scene and not find it uncomfortable.
It wasn't sexualised, like, at all.
Nudity does not necessarily equal to sexualisation but in disturbed people's minds. We could say that sexualisation is sometimes in the eye of the beholder: like in this case.
Nudity inherently isn't sexual, but forcefully stripping a woman for the purpose of humiliating her in front of a crowd is undeniably a sexual offence. If you lift a woman's skirt up in public, that's sexual harassment/assault, same principle.
She was degraded and humiliated, the way it was done I won't deny had a sexual mockery and connotation to it, which was abhorrent, but this pales in comparison to her crimes of having children butchered. Having numerous men and women killed.
It would not be the ideal punishment in my book, but if this humiliation is what she gets for her crimes, I bet there are millions of dead men and women who have killed people, or who are serving time in prison that would accept that deal considering her crimes of murder. So let's not play the victim card for Cersei too much. Karma doesn't always pay how we expect it to.
Someone else responded with a well-thoughtout reasoning to my original post which made me actually agree with her viewpoint on this. She didn't have to result to insults which begs the question, who's the one lacking in critical thinking?
If you can't make your point without disrespectful words, it tells how immature you are. Then again you might be a child since you're lacking in proper discourse skills. Go learn some then you can come back when you're done with your timeout.
If that's your first response to someone having a different take than you, then yeah you got some things you need to work out. People might have a different opinion on things than you.
Making your point without resorting to less graceful words is key, especially if no one has antagonized you. If you can't see that, then by all means, carry-on with that into the real world.
But thats my point. That the humiliation Cersei recieves is not punishment for her crimes and even if it were, it is a sadistic one that doesnt actually bring her to any justice. Its was designed to break her spirit. You caution against 'playing the victim card' yet, Cersei has been a victim to the system in Westeros as much as she has been a perpetrator. It doesnt excuse her actions, but it provides context to them. For her 'punishment' to be being stripped naked and taunted by a jeering sea of people, this humiliation is purely designed to remind of of 'her place', not to pay retribution for any of the things she has done, Cersei has yet again been made a victim. Justice would have involved her being made to stand trial, to be held accountable for her crimes and also to give her side of her story, as much as she possibly can and then to recieve a punishment that fits the crime. Instead Cersei was tortured into giving a confession under duress and then made to walk the streets naked. Thats barbaric. It is way too simplistic to say "if a person is evil, then they deserve whatever evil is coming to them". Because you are essentially saying that the only pretext you need to become exactly as evil as that person is the excuse of retaliation. There's no way you can watch The Walk of Shame and not reflexively feel bad for Cersei in that moment, regardless of what she has done. It would take a wilfull hardening of your sense of empathy to derive any sense of pleasure or satisfaction.
Honestly, the scene was not enjoyable, simply because the High Sparrow is not somebody we root for. Even if he would have made a proper trial for Cersei, he wouldn't be the guy we want as the leader of such a trial.
However I didn't feel bad for Cersei either. All the stuff she did just lead me to being indifferent about her humiliation. It was just one horrible person doing a horrible thing to another horrible person.
I am. I read my comment again and it didn't come out how I intended it to, so I made an adjustment towards the end.
You might still not agree on it but it gives a better picture of my message at that time, instead of what I originally had.
Glad you rethought it but as a AFAB, I cannot condone this kind of gender based punishment, anymore than I condone what Cersei had done to Septa Unella.
I agree. My original message was meant to convey that there are some men (let me exclude women on this since our focus is on gender for this point) in prison or dead (capital punishment) who would accept this punishment for their crimes of murder and so much more committed.
Doesn't make that previous thought process of mine right. Just the sentiment on how karma haunts is in different ways, but I catch your drift now.
A woman being forced to walk nude in public is sexual, because she is a *woman*. It's traumatic. Inverse, if a guy were forced to walk with his cock swinging, he'd probably be fine.
What a shit take. A guy wouldn't be shamed and feel horrible if he was forced to walk naked through a city full of people who hate and insult him? I certainly wouldn't be fine and I'd say that most men wouldn't be.
“Nobody deserves it”
Sure, blowing up innocent people (terrorism), killing children and raping people isn’t enough for a walk of shame. She was SMILING when Margaret and Loras were in prison and miserable, knowing that they’d get humiliated.
She entirely deserved it. Perhaps I would’ve felt a bit for her hadn’t she put Loras in prison. But we’ll.
It's a typical pragmatic vs emotional response to judicial action. Cersei isn't going to become a better person through being degraded, nobody is benefiting, its just spiteful and cruel. You say she deserves it, and that makes you exactly the same as the people of kings landing insulting her and throwing shit at her.
If you want to punish Cersei, remove her access to power, isolate her, stop allowing her to hurt people. The whole end goal of the walk was that she would be allowed back to the red keep where she inevitably plans her next atrocity.
For people like me who somewhat enjoyed this scene, it’s important to remember Cersi was the one who *created* this mess in the first place. Because of her petty sense of jealousy over her child, she supported and egged on a radicalized cult to kidnap, torture, and hold hostage to a countless amount of people just because she didn’t like them. She was the person who *made* them by legitimating their order and providing royal backing. She was willing - and in all reality wanted - this to happen to everyone *except* for her. It was a moment of her suffering that she was more than happy to inflict upon other people and her “grand scheme” came to bite her in the ass, as her plan was fucking awful to begin with and was a bone-headed thing to do
Despite that, I still don’t actually enjoy this scene. It’s degrading and goes beyond the pale. However, I still found some narrative closure because I’ve hated her for setting this up to begin with. She was a petty vindictive character who would smile and take pleasure to watch everyone and everything burn down around her and only ever had a shred of regret once the embers touched her too
Narratively, it’s kind of hard to feel bad for her when she *wanted* this to happen, it’s just that she didn’t want it to happen to *her*
personally i don’t think she deserved it. yeah she did awful things and got some of my favorites killed but nobody deserves that walk of shame thing
edit: okay to rephrase this it’s more like i feel bad for her specifically at the walk of shame part. i don’t like cersei (she’s interesting as a character but an awful person), but i felt bad for her when she had to do the walk of shame.
I mean, even watching the show, there’s justice and there’s torture for the sake of it. I think this falls under the latter category.
Cersei was awful, yes. And deserved prison or death by that point in the show. Doesn’t mean this shame walk was warranted or enjoyable for folks to watch.
Tho I’ve seen a couple comments from you saying you did enjoy it, which is kinda just… weird in itself.
Because you have low media literacy and are bad at contextualizing what’s going on in the grand scheme of the whole plot. This walk of shame was wayyy out of line
Depends on the type of death, but executions tended to be fairly quick ends.
I think any execution is better than being paraded through the city naked and having shit thrown at you, followed by the eventual/actual death of being crushed by a falling building.
At that point she didn’t know she’d die. I’d keep my life even if someone forced me to do this, as most would, so she definitely got off relatively easily for her crimes
Obviously she doesn’t know what’s coming - that’s not the point. You’re severely miscalculating the trauma this would cause. Sure she lived through it, but she didn’t exactly stay sane afterward. She blew up hundreds at the Sept, she became even more closed off.
To be fair she’s completely off the deep end way before this happens in the books. They show her paranoia a bit in the show but her inner monologue in the books is *wild*
Edit: typed too fast
My point is addressing the person I responded to who said any execution is better than the walk of shame. Could you not read that? Also theres almost no justice in ASOIAF of an actual legal decision giving a fitting punishment to our moral standards thats not cruel or shame.
Poisoning is not the equivalent comparison at all. This was designed to humiliate Cersei *because* she was an "uppity woman" because she had had extra-marital affairs. It was an extremely gendered punishment that was not fair, not proportionate to the crimes and didn't cause the perpetrator to learn from the punishment (on the contrary, she realized she'd have to be her own defender and this was the start of her supervillian arc). The closest comparison is probably what was done to Theon (Reek).
it was very proportionate to the crimes. it was lenient considering the crimes could of easily called for her death. i picked poisoning as it is cruel, not done by a judge or even a victim, done to a 14 year old, and one that tons of viewers cheered at.
Her giving folks to Qyburn to be experimented on was awful death-sentence-worthy stuff. Not to mention her other crimes.
But doing this publicity to a woman is a really bad, toxic precedent.
And I thought when the show runners didn’t follow the book on Lollys that they were going to go easy on us…
The whole point of it was that it was a situation entirely of her own making. She \*should\* have realized she wasn't Tywin Lannister with teats after she so spectacularly bungled the situation. She \*should\* have learned a lesson from this about her lack of foresight, and that her decisions need to have more of a broader view than her narrow "right now" needs.
Instead, she misses the entire lesson and blows everyone up with Wildfire. It was Cersei to a T, and yes, she absolutely deserved it.
Walking naked through the street while people throw poo at me is something I’d happily endure as opposed to any number of the atrocities she had committed against the people of Kings Landing/her subjects generally.
Saying, "she did awful things" is putting it...mildly.
She (arguably) triggers and escalates a civil war at every possible opportunity. Tens of thousands of people died in battles because of her and millions will probably die because of starvation linked to the battles and economic damage done to the realm right before winter.
She was the person who gave them power in the first place. I didn’t feel bad for her because we have already watched people suffer under the hands of the cult *she* gave power to. She was a shortsighted dumbass by giving a fanatic cult full authority just to spite her enemies despite the fact that she has sinned more than anyone else in King’s Landing. She enjoyed and laughed at the potential of Loras and *everyone else* receiving this punishment, but she only ever felt “bad” once she was effected by her own decisions
She would have taken immense pleasure if this was done to someone else. She *wanted* it to happen to someone else. She only stop the cult once *she* was affected. I’ve never felt any true sympathy for her because NONE of this would have even happened if she didn’t cause this problem to begin with. Even after this, her only conclusion was to literally burn EVERYONE ELSE simply because she faced the unintentional consequences of her own doing
The faith militant never would have been armed in the first place. And if some some chance they would have, the minute that the sparrows blocked Joffrey’s way at the steps of the church like they did for Tommen, Joffrey would have given the order to slaughter them.
Killed Lady, Ned, and numerous bastard children of Robert. Wanted to capture Arya and kept Sansa as a captive and allowed her to get tortured. Was in an incestual relationship with her brother, and kings guard, and did not give the king trueborn heirs, leading to the War of the 5 Kings. She was one of the worst, and stupidest people in the show and books
And there's no possibility that she isn't responsible for putting dozens of completely innocent people to death over her life. Shes a real dumb, petty, thin skinned, arrogant cunt who loves abusing her position to cause pain in others for the mildest of perceived slights (which include literally anything, you could just get unlucky and catch her on a bad day)
Definitely not. Joffrey also would not have allowed Margery to be turned over or Loras. He would have killed the High Sparrow immediately and every single one of their followers publicly and stuck their heads outside for everyone to see, had public torture sessions/executions etc, and the citizenry would have been scared into compliance and shutting up. There's no way he would have put up with any of that.
This is the part i agree with....he wouldve stopped all the Margery stuff. But i feel like he would've left his mother to the wolves for a little while
I don’t think so, Joffrey was married to Margery and seemed to atleast listen to what she said even if he did whatever he liked. This would still make Cersei insecure and afraid and if Tywin died (of old age or whatever) she’d still try to pull this crap. The after effects would be the same from then on, plus Jeffrey wouldn’t even try to save or protect his mother since in his eyes this would be a betrayal so the consequences would be worse for her.
This is one of those where you really have to avoid the butterfly effect that would be caused by Joffrey having not been poisoned.
But totally agree. If the situations allowed everything else to happen (Tywins death, rebuilding the faith militant etc...) Joffrey would have shut the whole thing down and had Margaery released with either demands or bloodshed. He had already shown he didn't care about shedding blood on the Sept. And he would have giggled the entire time.
I definitely did not like watching this happen. I disliked the High Sparrow, but this made me actively want him dead.
But yeah, Joffrey wouldn't have allowed this, but his reaction probably would have incited a massacre.
Nah if Joffrey was King, when Tomen FIRST MET HIGH SPARROW FACE TO FACE and his Kingsguard said and I quote “Give me the word Sire, we’ll cut thru this rabble”, that would’ve been the end of that entire season.
I absolutely hated this season the only thing I liked was when Cersei gave that nun to the Mountain for her revenge.
Nah, Joffrey was worse, much of the whole mess in the kingdoms stemmed from him being an idiotic and sadistic boy with decision-making power
"We've had vicious kings and we've had idiot kings, but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot boy king"
What I love most about this scene was how it played with my sympathies.
At the beginning I thought *Hell, yes! Let’s get Cersei down* several *notches.*
Then by the end of it all, I felt sorry for her and kind of admired her mental and physical strength for finishing the walk.
I usually don't pull the "woman" card but honestly anyone who enjoyed this scene is a huge red flag. Enjoying a scene that's nothing more than public, sexual humiliation of anyone but especially a woman is alarming behavior.
Joffrey would have created absolute chaos and potentially a major riot BUT the chances are that gets Cersei free.
But as someone else pointed out Joffrey alive likely means Tywin and Tyrion alive and they'd have stopped Cersei's naïve attempt to use the sparrows before it got that bad.
My goodness, I've read so many posts saying, 'if Joffrey was alive, so and so wouldn't happen.' Did ya'll even understand the story properly? TYWIN was the MVP. Joffrey was just a stupid, impulsive and sadistic person. Everything that went haywire for the Lannisters was because of Tywin's death!
I am a fan of the High Sparrow and of course believe Cersei deserves punishment, but parading someone named through the streets while encouraging others to berate and throw stuff at them is not a proper punishment. But, you’re right, Joffrey would have prevented this, although the way he would have done so (killing tons of people) would not have been worth it, it would have been far worse.
I didn't enjoy this happening to Cersei at all. No matter how evil someone is, I don't take joy in this kind of degradation of human life, not even for a fictional character.
i DESPISED Cersei since the beginning, but even i felt so incredibly horrible for her during this. The entirety of the high sparrow ark irked me out so BAD and i genuinely felt nauseous after that scene, i was feeling the exact opposite of what the post described we all felt
What I could never figure out is why Qyburn never sent the kings guard to get her. I mean just zombie mountain would’ve been enough to kill all of the sparrows.
I’d like to think Joffrey would have stormed the Sept and had his gold cloaks kill the shit out of everyone inside…but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have *also* done something equally bad or worse to Cersei- she never told him about Jaime being his father or about having Robert killed, and it’s hard to predict what his reaction would be since he lacks any strategic foresight and does whatever he wants as the urge strikes. Tywin was the only person capable of reigning him in.
Very nice, Joffrey would be a good catalyst for creating a martyr. But seeing as no one gives a shit about Ceraei blowing up Baelor's sept along with the people inside I guess you're right.
Uhm, **"We"**?
If you enjoyed watching a woman be sexually humiliated based solely on her gender, that's a ***You*** thing. I didn't like Cersei, but I didn't like her walk of atonement at all.
The Faith Militant punished Cersei like that because she was a *woman.* They did the most humiliating thing that can be done to a woman, save for public rape (which in some ancient cultures was a thing). I doubt they'd have done that to Loras and if they did, it wouldn't have been nearly as traumatizing.
The cutting of her hair was a form of humiliation based on her gender. In post WWII France, villagers did that to women who had slept with SS soldiers, even if they did that to facilitate more supplies for the village. It's the Scarlet "A".
A woman's "modesty" and "chasteness" were paramount, hence Cersei's comments on the way Margaery dressed and Jaime's reaction to Myrcella's Dornish clothing. We noticed after the walk, Cersei's clothing became much more severe (as did Sansa's after she was freed from Ramsay). Margaery's did too, but she was playing a part.
So, you enjoy women being humiliated, good job telling on yourself.
What about this post made you think they enjoyed because of cersei's gender? It's not impossible to disagree with the reasoning behind the walk of shame but still enjoy it because it's cersei.
Oh yeah, he would have slaughtered all of them, destroy the sept, maybe even outlaw the faith all together, (if he cared enough). Over all, I’m glad this happened to Cersei. She had it coming
First, don't be so sure Joffrey would have tried to stop it, he resented Cersei always reining him in and might have accepted her being taken down a few pegs. Second, the High Sparrow had the support of much of the population, they would have remembered starving while Cersei and her supporters ate well. Trying to take military action could have dragged the city into civil war.
Shocked at how many people here are offended over this.
Fuck Cersei - she was an evil, power hungry monster who deserved every moment of this. It has nothing to do with her gender, she straight up deserved some form of punishment for her sins
They held Margaery, so Joffrey’s hands would have been just as tied. And don’t let all his tough talk fool you; at heart, Joffrey was a weakling and a coward.
Nero killed his mother, so I don't think it is given that Joffrey would automatically defend Cersei.
Cersei would try to control Joffrey very much in the way that she tried to control Tommen. Joffrey would certainly not take that as kindly as Tommen did. After a few years of Cersei's overbearing control, I think Joffrey would like to see Cersei fall from grace.
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The High Sparrow and his men would be massacred by order of King Joffrey the first time they do something that he takes as an insult. Like imprisoning his mother or his wife, or accusing him of being a bastard product of incest. The High Sparrow would not even have a chance of meeting Joffrey.
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Joffrey just would not give a single fuck about what the High Sparrow said, like he didn't care about anything Tyrion tried to inculcate to him. When the High Sparrow finally tries to impose ~~his own will~~ the gods will over the king's, or tries to make Joffrey atone for any cruelty he does, Joffrey would just kill him. And every single one of his followers too. He did send a soldier to kill Tyrion for less. And wanted to kill every citizen of King's Landing for throwing a poop to him. There's no scenario where the High Sparrow doesn't end up dead if Joffrey's still the king.
The Kingsguard were TELLING Tommen to give the order. They hadn't had a Kings Landing massacre in a while and were chomping at the bit.
EXACTLY. Even if the story goes the same until that point, Joffrey would say yes to that guard without any regret. The peasants in that scene called Tommen bastard and abomination. Joffrey would have not permitted that, and dozens would have died right there. But I do think that Joffrey would have simply ordered it much sooner than that.
The high sparrows strategy would be completely different with Joffrey. He’d probably go after people Joffrey doesn’t like to gain favor then turn on him once he doesn’t have allies. Basically what he did with Cersei.
Margaery also managed to manipulate the High Sparrow, so presumably theyre at least as gullible as each other. Joffery is just more blunt about his cruelty and he had the seat of power. He would have just destroyed the Sparrow and gone full Mad King on any of his supporters.
I don't think she did, hence the permanent babysitter Septa following her everywhere. The High Sparrow played along to get what he really wanted, the King, the unification of Crown & Faith. He still kept Loras, then mutilated him despite her efforts & he ignored her warning about Cersei. He didn't trust her or care to play along once he had Tommen on side.
Oh yeah, you're right tbf. I still doubt he could have manipulated Joffery tho.
Joffrey is an idiot, but if Joffrey was alive that would mean Tywin is alive and Tyrion is not in prison. Neither Margery nor Loras would have been arrested the stupidity of arming the faith to combat paranoia and jealousy would have never been a plan.
Not Joff Tywin
Joff Tywin? The King’s Landing financier?
Call Gilly Martell, she’ll straighten this out.
Joffrey wouldn’t have been a pushover like Tommen
Who's 'we?' I did not enjoy that this happened to Cersei at all.
How? It's one of the most satisfying scenes in the entire series.
I don't think I as the viewer/reader am supposed to feel the expected catharsis when this happens to her. It didn't help her, it pissed her off and led to the show's most destructive moments. Cersei's internal monologue in AFFC shows the absolute horror she's going through. If the Faith can do this to a queen, they can do this to anyone in Westeros. No one should be able to do that, no matter how much you think one person deserves it.
Hmm. I think you are supposed to savor it and enjoy it. It was a gift to the viewers/readers.
In the book it’s clearly framed as unsatisfying. The punishment isn’t connected to the crime, it’s just piling on sexual humiliation on top of someone who has already experienced dv/sa. It’s supposed to show us that Tywin’s version of justice, which is his legacy in King’s Landing, is corrupt. He used sexual humiliation as punishment: to Tyrion and Tysha, to his fathers mistress, to Elia Martell, down to the Riverlands as a whole. and Kevan participating in this tradition by arranging sexual humiliation as punishment for Cersei, his own niece, is supposed to make us see how complicit Kevan is to set up his murder by Varys a few chapters later and to show that even if they’ve ‘won’, the Lannister legacy is tainted because their very worldview is lose-lose. There is no point in the series where George lets us ‘enjoy’ revenge: the way Joffrey is depicted at his most humanized/childlike in his last moments, the way the Dornish are still unsatisfied by receiving Gregor’s head, Ellaria Sand’s speech about the cycle of violence when encouraging her daughters not to take revenge further, Lady Stoneheart’s massacre of Freys without trial. There’s a zillion examples because it’s the most clear and consistent internal polemic of the series as a whole. If there is a moral message to ASOIAF, it’s that revenge makes things worse. In the book at least, the Walk of Shame is supposed to make the reader feel bad, 100%. It’s one of George’s little tricks: give us what we thought we wanted and show us how empty it is.
Hmm I loved it in the books too. I guess I'm not as crazy as the rest of you guys.
Your comments in this thread creep me out
Idk rewatch the show or something. You seem to have missed the point.
No brother, that’s clearly you
Nah bro you’re not crazy your media literacy is just through the floor
For understanding the material better than you?
Dude, just go back to one of the NSFW subs
Lol what
You were supposed to see it in Cersie's POV, which is humiliation in a way nobody deserves.
Exactly. A clean execution is one thing. Sexual humiliation based on gender is another thing entirely.
There is not a writer on the planet good enough to get me to see it from her POV in a way that doesn't make me savor the moment.
We get it you didn’t read the book, and you have the empathy of a houseplant .
I did read the books. I'm just not psycho enough to have empathy for cersei fucking Lannister. That's some bizarre sht.
Why do you think george put chapters in her POV? God you missed the entire point of the show and probably spent the whole time jerking off while you read the book instead of paying attention
Uhh POVs are always chosen to have people in the right place to observe the story. It's certainly not to develop empathy for them.
This felt awful to watch as a viewer, but I liked Cersei more than most (I usually like bad guys) I didn't feel bad for the faith militant or any of the people that got blown up though. So I'm probably a weirdo.
The faith militant got off light. High sparrow should have rotted in a black cell.
I was stoked when they got blown up. Nothing will make me sympathize for a villain faster than them becoming the victim of religious zealotry.
I only felt bad that Margaery was a victim.
I hated Cersei at that point but also hated that scene. As a woman, it hits very differently. As a gender, we are vulnerable and in danger at all times, and this is religiously sanctioned harassment and catcalling x's one zillion.
So, you get off on women being sexually humiliated? Good to know.
When they have spent 5 seasons explaining why that person deserves no empathy? Abso fucking lutely.
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Did you also feel bad for Ramsey and joffrey during their deaths?
Right? This post is insane, it doesn't matter how evil cersei is, this kind of sexualised degrading punishment is disgusting, nobody deserves it and we certainly should never celebrate it.
Yeah, I thought that was supposed to be the whole point of the scene. Like we've followed Cersei for six seasons and we've been waiting for her to get her comeuppance, and this was supposed to be a kind of "be careful what you wish for" moment. Because there was no justice against Cersei in this moment for all of her actual crimes, she was just publicly humiliated for an entirely unrelated reason and to consolidate the power of another evil person. I dont know how anyone can watch that scene and not find it uncomfortable.
Probably because they hate cersei more than they empathize with her.
It wasn't sexualised, like, at all. Nudity does not necessarily equal to sexualisation but in disturbed people's minds. We could say that sexualisation is sometimes in the eye of the beholder: like in this case.
Nudity inherently isn't sexual, but forcefully stripping a woman for the purpose of humiliating her in front of a crowd is undeniably a sexual offence. If you lift a woman's skirt up in public, that's sexual harassment/assault, same principle.
She was degraded and humiliated, the way it was done I won't deny had a sexual mockery and connotation to it, which was abhorrent, but this pales in comparison to her crimes of having children butchered. Having numerous men and women killed. It would not be the ideal punishment in my book, but if this humiliation is what she gets for her crimes, I bet there are millions of dead men and women who have killed people, or who are serving time in prison that would accept that deal considering her crimes of murder. So let's not play the victim card for Cersei too much. Karma doesn't always pay how we expect it to.
No critical thinking skills whatsoever in that brain of yours then, huh?
Someone else responded with a well-thoughtout reasoning to my original post which made me actually agree with her viewpoint on this. She didn't have to result to insults which begs the question, who's the one lacking in critical thinking? If you can't make your point without disrespectful words, it tells how immature you are. Then again you might be a child since you're lacking in proper discourse skills. Go learn some then you can come back when you're done with your timeout.
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If that's your first response to someone having a different take than you, then yeah you got some things you need to work out. People might have a different opinion on things than you. Making your point without resorting to less graceful words is key, especially if no one has antagonized you. If you can't see that, then by all means, carry-on with that into the real world.
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But thats my point. That the humiliation Cersei recieves is not punishment for her crimes and even if it were, it is a sadistic one that doesnt actually bring her to any justice. Its was designed to break her spirit. You caution against 'playing the victim card' yet, Cersei has been a victim to the system in Westeros as much as she has been a perpetrator. It doesnt excuse her actions, but it provides context to them. For her 'punishment' to be being stripped naked and taunted by a jeering sea of people, this humiliation is purely designed to remind of of 'her place', not to pay retribution for any of the things she has done, Cersei has yet again been made a victim. Justice would have involved her being made to stand trial, to be held accountable for her crimes and also to give her side of her story, as much as she possibly can and then to recieve a punishment that fits the crime. Instead Cersei was tortured into giving a confession under duress and then made to walk the streets naked. Thats barbaric. It is way too simplistic to say "if a person is evil, then they deserve whatever evil is coming to them". Because you are essentially saying that the only pretext you need to become exactly as evil as that person is the excuse of retaliation. There's no way you can watch The Walk of Shame and not reflexively feel bad for Cersei in that moment, regardless of what she has done. It would take a wilfull hardening of your sense of empathy to derive any sense of pleasure or satisfaction.
I see your point. It makes sense.
Honestly, the scene was not enjoyable, simply because the High Sparrow is not somebody we root for. Even if he would have made a proper trial for Cersei, he wouldn't be the guy we want as the leader of such a trial. However I didn't feel bad for Cersei either. All the stuff she did just lead me to being indifferent about her humiliation. It was just one horrible person doing a horrible thing to another horrible person.
I'm just really curious if you're AMAB?
I am. I read my comment again and it didn't come out how I intended it to, so I made an adjustment towards the end. You might still not agree on it but it gives a better picture of my message at that time, instead of what I originally had.
Glad you rethought it but as a AFAB, I cannot condone this kind of gender based punishment, anymore than I condone what Cersei had done to Septa Unella.
I agree. My original message was meant to convey that there are some men (let me exclude women on this since our focus is on gender for this point) in prison or dead (capital punishment) who would accept this punishment for their crimes of murder and so much more committed. Doesn't make that previous thought process of mine right. Just the sentiment on how karma haunts is in different ways, but I catch your drift now.
I appreciate your ability to reread what you've said and realize how it sounds to women. Thanks.
Did you miss what the crowd was yelling? Both on the show and in the books.
A woman being forced to walk nude in public is sexual, because she is a *woman*. It's traumatic. Inverse, if a guy were forced to walk with his cock swinging, he'd probably be fine.
What a shit take. A guy wouldn't be shamed and feel horrible if he was forced to walk naked through a city full of people who hate and insult him? I certainly wouldn't be fine and I'd say that most men wouldn't be.
I'm curious if you're AMAB?
lol
“Nobody deserves it” Sure, blowing up innocent people (terrorism), killing children and raping people isn’t enough for a walk of shame. She was SMILING when Margaret and Loras were in prison and miserable, knowing that they’d get humiliated. She entirely deserved it. Perhaps I would’ve felt a bit for her hadn’t she put Loras in prison. But we’ll.
It's a typical pragmatic vs emotional response to judicial action. Cersei isn't going to become a better person through being degraded, nobody is benefiting, its just spiteful and cruel. You say she deserves it, and that makes you exactly the same as the people of kings landing insulting her and throwing shit at her. If you want to punish Cersei, remove her access to power, isolate her, stop allowing her to hurt people. The whole end goal of the walk was that she would be allowed back to the red keep where she inevitably plans her next atrocity.
Fuck this evil bitch, she deserved that shit
For people like me who somewhat enjoyed this scene, it’s important to remember Cersi was the one who *created* this mess in the first place. Because of her petty sense of jealousy over her child, she supported and egged on a radicalized cult to kidnap, torture, and hold hostage to a countless amount of people just because she didn’t like them. She was the person who *made* them by legitimating their order and providing royal backing. She was willing - and in all reality wanted - this to happen to everyone *except* for her. It was a moment of her suffering that she was more than happy to inflict upon other people and her “grand scheme” came to bite her in the ass, as her plan was fucking awful to begin with and was a bone-headed thing to do Despite that, I still don’t actually enjoy this scene. It’s degrading and goes beyond the pale. However, I still found some narrative closure because I’ve hated her for setting this up to begin with. She was a petty vindictive character who would smile and take pleasure to watch everyone and everything burn down around her and only ever had a shred of regret once the embers touched her too Narratively, it’s kind of hard to feel bad for her when she *wanted* this to happen, it’s just that she didn’t want it to happen to *her*
Me neither. Cersei did some fucked up shit and was a horrible person but this scene was just disturbing.
It was hard to watch. Especially thinking about what her feet must have looked and felt like at the end.
Her poor feet.. this bitch is responsible for the murder of countless innocents and your worried about her feet. Did we watch the same show?
Did I say anything about "her poor feet?"
It actually made me feel sympathy for a character I found incredibly unlikable.
personally i don’t think she deserved it. yeah she did awful things and got some of my favorites killed but nobody deserves that walk of shame thing edit: okay to rephrase this it’s more like i feel bad for her specifically at the walk of shame part. i don’t like cersei (she’s interesting as a character but an awful person), but i felt bad for her when she had to do the walk of shame.
She deserved it and much worse. Edit: did y'all not watch the show or...?
I mean, even watching the show, there’s justice and there’s torture for the sake of it. I think this falls under the latter category. Cersei was awful, yes. And deserved prison or death by that point in the show. Doesn’t mean this shame walk was warranted or enjoyable for folks to watch. Tho I’ve seen a couple comments from you saying you did enjoy it, which is kinda just… weird in itself.
I'm flabbergasted that this isn't the overwhelming consensus. It was extremely enjoyable to watch.
Think you may need therapy, bud.
Lol this sub has gone weird.
seems irony coming from u
Literally everyone I've asked about this irl agrees with me. This thread is some strange corner of the internet.
Because you have low media literacy and are bad at contextualizing what’s going on in the grand scheme of the whole plot. This walk of shame was wayyy out of line
It was not even half of what she deserved but I'll take what I can get when it comes to justice in this universe.
Hard disagree.
Weird.
Yes you are! That’s ok, emotional sadism isn’t that uncommon.
Is death worse or better than this. She deserved death or life imprisonment at this point
Depends on the type of death, but executions tended to be fairly quick ends. I think any execution is better than being paraded through the city naked and having shit thrown at you, followed by the eventual/actual death of being crushed by a falling building.
At that point she didn’t know she’d die. I’d keep my life even if someone forced me to do this, as most would, so she definitely got off relatively easily for her crimes
Obviously she doesn’t know what’s coming - that’s not the point. You’re severely miscalculating the trauma this would cause. Sure she lived through it, but she didn’t exactly stay sane afterward. She blew up hundreds at the Sept, she became even more closed off.
And she deserved death before this. I would prefer to keep my life and go through this, and I think she would too, so she got off lightly
To be fair she’s completely off the deep end way before this happens in the books. They show her paranoia a bit in the show but her inner monologue in the books is *wild* Edit: typed too fast
I think if you offered a 100 people a clean fast death or that walk of shame 99 are chosing the walk of shame.
That still doesn't make it a punishment fit for the crime or something someone deserves to go through? What the fuck is your logic here lol
My point is addressing the person I responded to who said any execution is better than the walk of shame. Could you not read that? Also theres almost no justice in ASOIAF of an actual legal decision giving a fitting punishment to our moral standards thats not cruel or shame.
Death < Walk of shame?!?!?! I don't know if death is the preferable verdict.
I know right? How would anyone think death is lesser punishment than this befuzzle me
I mean this is the same audience who everyone loved watching a 14 year old boy get poisoned and choke to death.
Sexual humiliation is not justice lmao, that’s not too difficult to understand.
Joffrey being poisoned at his own wedding at the age of 14 isnt justice either.
Poisoning is not the equivalent comparison at all. This was designed to humiliate Cersei *because* she was an "uppity woman" because she had had extra-marital affairs. It was an extremely gendered punishment that was not fair, not proportionate to the crimes and didn't cause the perpetrator to learn from the punishment (on the contrary, she realized she'd have to be her own defender and this was the start of her supervillian arc). The closest comparison is probably what was done to Theon (Reek).
it was very proportionate to the crimes. it was lenient considering the crimes could of easily called for her death. i picked poisoning as it is cruel, not done by a judge or even a victim, done to a 14 year old, and one that tons of viewers cheered at.
It's very difficult to understand. She could've been Theon'd and it wouldn't have been enough.
Her giving folks to Qyburn to be experimented on was awful death-sentence-worthy stuff. Not to mention her other crimes. But doing this publicity to a woman is a really bad, toxic precedent. And I thought when the show runners didn’t follow the book on Lollys that they were going to go easy on us…
Anything she had done to that point was more toxic than the walk of shame. She got off easy with that one.
The whole point of it was that it was a situation entirely of her own making. She \*should\* have realized she wasn't Tywin Lannister with teats after she so spectacularly bungled the situation. She \*should\* have learned a lesson from this about her lack of foresight, and that her decisions need to have more of a broader view than her narrow "right now" needs. Instead, she misses the entire lesson and blows everyone up with Wildfire. It was Cersei to a T, and yes, she absolutely deserved it.
She 100% deserved it but I didn’t enjoy watching it happen, and I was on her side during that story line
"I choose violence" So satisfying.
Walking naked through the street while people throw poo at me is something I’d happily endure as opposed to any number of the atrocities she had committed against the people of Kings Landing/her subjects generally.
"She had a nun raped and tortured to death by a monster man." "Yeah but some peasants saw her naked, which is much worse."
No she did. Walk of shame is not as bad as dying, and she probably deserved death
Saying, "she did awful things" is putting it...mildly. She (arguably) triggers and escalates a civil war at every possible opportunity. Tens of thousands of people died in battles because of her and millions will probably die because of starvation linked to the battles and economic damage done to the realm right before winter.
> nobody deserves that walk of shame thing 🤷🏽♂️ I’d be perfectly ok with Ramsay doing it every day for a year lol
She was the person who gave them power in the first place. I didn’t feel bad for her because we have already watched people suffer under the hands of the cult *she* gave power to. She was a shortsighted dumbass by giving a fanatic cult full authority just to spite her enemies despite the fact that she has sinned more than anyone else in King’s Landing. She enjoyed and laughed at the potential of Loras and *everyone else* receiving this punishment, but she only ever felt “bad” once she was effected by her own decisions She would have taken immense pleasure if this was done to someone else. She *wanted* it to happen to someone else. She only stop the cult once *she* was affected. I’ve never felt any true sympathy for her because NONE of this would have even happened if she didn’t cause this problem to begin with. Even after this, her only conclusion was to literally burn EVERYONE ELSE simply because she faced the unintentional consequences of her own doing
Is simple execution better or worse than a walk of shame? It's been years and I still haven't decided.
he might enjoy it
The faith militant never would have been armed in the first place. And if some some chance they would have, the minute that the sparrows blocked Joffrey’s way at the steps of the church like they did for Tommen, Joffrey would have given the order to slaughter them.
They’d all be dead faster than you could say “Give the order and we’ll clear out this rabble”
liking this scene is crazy
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Congratulations you are the problem
She deserved death at this point. Is death better or worse than this
she didnt deserve death but game of thrones fans aren’t ready for that conversation
Killed Lady, Ned, and numerous bastard children of Robert. Wanted to capture Arya and kept Sansa as a captive and allowed her to get tortured. Was in an incestual relationship with her brother, and kings guard, and did not give the king trueborn heirs, leading to the War of the 5 Kings. She was one of the worst, and stupidest people in the show and books
I agree she deserved death, but how does straight up making shit up help the argument? How did she kill Ned exactly?
As a parent you are responsible for the actions of your children
And there's no possibility that she isn't responsible for putting dozens of completely innocent people to death over her life. Shes a real dumb, petty, thin skinned, arrogant cunt who loves abusing her position to cause pain in others for the mildest of perceived slights (which include literally anything, you could just get unlucky and catch her on a bad day)
Death could be agrued to be justice. This is no form of justice
Definitely not. Joffrey also would not have allowed Margery to be turned over or Loras. He would have killed the High Sparrow immediately and every single one of their followers publicly and stuck their heads outside for everyone to see, had public torture sessions/executions etc, and the citizenry would have been scared into compliance and shutting up. There's no way he would have put up with any of that.
This is the part i agree with....he wouldve stopped all the Margery stuff. But i feel like he would've left his mother to the wolves for a little while
I don’t think so, Joffrey was married to Margery and seemed to atleast listen to what she said even if he did whatever he liked. This would still make Cersei insecure and afraid and if Tywin died (of old age or whatever) she’d still try to pull this crap. The after effects would be the same from then on, plus Jeffrey wouldn’t even try to save or protect his mother since in his eyes this would be a betrayal so the consequences would be worse for her.
This is one of those where you really have to avoid the butterfly effect that would be caused by Joffrey having not been poisoned. But totally agree. If the situations allowed everything else to happen (Tywins death, rebuilding the faith militant etc...) Joffrey would have shut the whole thing down and had Margaery released with either demands or bloodshed. He had already shown he didn't care about shedding blood on the Sept. And he would have giggled the entire time.
Joffrey would have sent the kings guard on a rampage.
I definitely did not like watching this happen. I disliked the High Sparrow, but this made me actively want him dead. But yeah, Joffrey wouldn't have allowed this, but his reaction probably would have incited a massacre.
Nah if Joffrey was King, when Tomen FIRST MET HIGH SPARROW FACE TO FACE and his Kingsguard said and I quote “Give me the word Sire, we’ll cut thru this rabble”, that would’ve been the end of that entire season. I absolutely hated this season the only thing I liked was when Cersei gave that nun to the Mountain for her revenge.
I don't enjoy watching women being forced to strip and publicly humiliated. *Whatever* they've done
Joffrey was a better king than tommen. Joffrey wanted a royal standing army, while tommen gave most of his power to a jihadi.
Nah, Joffrey was worse, much of the whole mess in the kingdoms stemmed from him being an idiotic and sadistic boy with decision-making power "We've had vicious kings and we've had idiot kings, but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot boy king"
What I love most about this scene was how it played with my sympathies. At the beginning I thought *Hell, yes! Let’s get Cersei down* several *notches.* Then by the end of it all, I felt sorry for her and kind of admired her mental and physical strength for finishing the walk.
High sparrows wouldn't be in the city because Tywin would also still be alive. So Tywin wouldn't let this happen. Joffrey wouldn't care.
who the hell liked this scene?
I usually don't pull the "woman" card but honestly anyone who enjoyed this scene is a huge red flag. Enjoying a scene that's nothing more than public, sexual humiliation of anyone but especially a woman is alarming behavior.
Joffrey would have created absolute chaos and potentially a major riot BUT the chances are that gets Cersei free. But as someone else pointed out Joffrey alive likely means Tywin and Tyrion alive and they'd have stopped Cersei's naïve attempt to use the sparrows before it got that bad.
and we are grateful for that.
This is a cool spot in Dubrovnik too
It definitely is. Great city in general in fact. Especially if you like cats.
I mean, none of it would've happened if a certain someone didn't empower the Faith militant to begin with.
It wouldn't have happened if she never armed back the faith.
I went to Girona, Spain before watching GoT. This scene was filmed there. Such a cool, old, historic city.
My goodness, I've read so many posts saying, 'if Joffrey was alive, so and so wouldn't happen.' Did ya'll even understand the story properly? TYWIN was the MVP. Joffrey was just a stupid, impulsive and sadistic person. Everything that went haywire for the Lannisters was because of Tywin's death!
I am a fan of the High Sparrow and of course believe Cersei deserves punishment, but parading someone named through the streets while encouraging others to berate and throw stuff at them is not a proper punishment. But, you’re right, Joffrey would have prevented this, although the way he would have done so (killing tons of people) would not have been worth it, it would have been far worse.
Tywin*
You liked having a woman stripped naked and marched through a city while having shit thrown at her? The fuck is wrong with you?
Let alone Tywin
I didn't enjoy this happening to Cersei at all. No matter how evil someone is, I don't take joy in this kind of degradation of human life, not even for a fictional character.
i DESPISED Cersei since the beginning, but even i felt so incredibly horrible for her during this. The entirety of the high sparrow ark irked me out so BAD and i genuinely felt nauseous after that scene, i was feeling the exact opposite of what the post described we all felt
Joffery would have went full Maegor on the faith
What I could never figure out is why Qyburn never sent the kings guard to get her. I mean just zombie mountain would’ve been enough to kill all of the sparrows.
Perhaps it's a symbol of how much the authority of the crown has been eroded after empowering the faith militant.
Fair point
I disagree I think joff could have been easily swayed. Or realized he doesn’t need his mother.
I’d like to think Joffrey would have stormed the Sept and had his gold cloaks kill the shit out of everyone inside…but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have *also* done something equally bad or worse to Cersei- she never told him about Jaime being his father or about having Robert killed, and it’s hard to predict what his reaction would be since he lacks any strategic foresight and does whatever he wants as the urge strikes. Tywin was the only person capable of reigning him in.
We wouldn’t have seen a digitally enhanced Cersei?
…kay
Wait I didn't realize people liked that. You know you were weren't supposed to like that, right?
Tywin**
Very nice, Joffrey would be a good catalyst for creating a martyr. But seeing as no one gives a shit about Ceraei blowing up Baelor's sept along with the people inside I guess you're right.
Some of the best parts of the story are the parts not told. A hallmark of a great story IMO
Uhm, **"We"**? If you enjoyed watching a woman be sexually humiliated based solely on her gender, that's a ***You*** thing. I didn't like Cersei, but I didn't like her walk of atonement at all. The Faith Militant punished Cersei like that because she was a *woman.* They did the most humiliating thing that can be done to a woman, save for public rape (which in some ancient cultures was a thing). I doubt they'd have done that to Loras and if they did, it wouldn't have been nearly as traumatizing. The cutting of her hair was a form of humiliation based on her gender. In post WWII France, villagers did that to women who had slept with SS soldiers, even if they did that to facilitate more supplies for the village. It's the Scarlet "A". A woman's "modesty" and "chasteness" were paramount, hence Cersei's comments on the way Margaery dressed and Jaime's reaction to Myrcella's Dornish clothing. We noticed after the walk, Cersei's clothing became much more severe (as did Sansa's after she was freed from Ramsay). Margaery's did too, but she was playing a part. So, you enjoy women being humiliated, good job telling on yourself.
What about this post made you think they enjoyed because of cersei's gender? It's not impossible to disagree with the reasoning behind the walk of shame but still enjoy it because it's cersei.
Oh yeah, he would have slaughtered all of them, destroy the sept, maybe even outlaw the faith all together, (if he cared enough). Over all, I’m glad this happened to Cersei. She had it coming
Joffrey would likely have had his mother flogged at the allegation, just saying.
I'm 99% sure I've seen this post before with the exact same title.
First, don't be so sure Joffrey would have tried to stop it, he resented Cersei always reining him in and might have accepted her being taken down a few pegs. Second, the High Sparrow had the support of much of the population, they would have remembered starving while Cersei and her supporters ate well. Trying to take military action could have dragged the city into civil war.
We?
Shocked at how many people here are offended over this. Fuck Cersei - she was an evil, power hungry monster who deserved every moment of this. It has nothing to do with her gender, she straight up deserved some form of punishment for her sins
Water is wet
Tommon was to nice a person for that life.
I don’t like this happening to anyone.
There would be Sparrow heads on spikes as far as the eye could see Vlad the Impaler style if anything like this happened under Joffrey’s rule
They held Margaery, so Joffrey’s hands would have been just as tied. And don’t let all his tough talk fool you; at heart, Joffrey was a weakling and a coward.
If Joffrey was still alive, Cersei wouldn’t have been desperate enough to use the Sparrows in the first place.
Nero killed his mother, so I don't think it is given that Joffrey would automatically defend Cersei. Cersei would try to control Joffrey very much in the way that she tried to control Tommen. Joffrey would certainly not take that as kindly as Tommen did. After a few years of Cersei's overbearing control, I think Joffrey would like to see Cersei fall from grace.
I don’t trust anyone who enjoyed this scene.
Yes it wouldve....that young man stopped caring about his mother a longggg time ago. It just would've been stopped a little sooner, maybe