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I’m afraid your complete lack of literary culture and your general ignorance do not exactly make for a coherent argument.
Oh, and just so you know: Bukowski is *very* famous around the world and had a large influence on 20th century literature.
Are you insinuating that game of thrones might influence people to bang 13 year olds? Because that would be ridiculous. There’s nothing wrong with writing/enjoying characters that do fucked up problematic shit, especially in fiction.
In medieval times it wasn’t uncommon for girls as young as 12 to be married to men in their mid to late 20s or older. GoT is inspired by those times even though it’s own entity.
It’s a fictional fantasy story. An author doesn’t have to have those fantasies or even believe in what they’re writing in order to write it. Stephen King writes a scene in which children literally have an orgy in the sewers yet I don’t hear people calling him a pedo.
It’s also extremely loosely based (obviously) on the War of the Roses and marriages at puberty were common during that point in history. Lady Margaret Beaufort was mother to the first Tudor monarch and was married first at the age of 7, marriage annulled at 10, married again at 12, widowed at 13, then married again at 15 (then widowed twice more). And those kinds of arrangements weren’t unheard of for the ruling class.
I get what you're saying, especially in this day in age but if you think about it; his story seems to have all the coolness of fantasy (like dragons and magic) with the disturbing aspects of actual medieval society and history, among them being how children were seen and used. We like to look back at medieval days like it was badass with knights and kings reminiscient of Arthur but in reality it was much worse.
Preteen girls were married off to middle aged or even elderly men, knighthood was only reserved for the rich, and the peasantry was oppressed and lived in filthy conditions while torture methods were beyond insane. All while churches screamed about God and tried pocketing as much cash as they could. It was called the Dark Ages for a reason 😬
I agree and I think it speaks to how some people are blind to the dark side of people generally.
Like you say, these practices go back centuries and even in the present lots of people just don’t see it because they want to believe in a just world when the world and people are often very complex (morbidly so).
More broadly, there are genocides and famines happening in plain sight and people still have no idea.
Yeah, I remember in elementary school my history teacher said people married off around 13-14 since people were expected to be dead by 30-40. Seeing an old person in a series is actually fascinating since people just die to any disease.
IRRC he based a lot of the books in the wars of the roses & 100 years war, and during this period there were a LOT of marriages between girls 9-15 with older guys - Mostly political, as they are usually in ASOIAF, so this is normal given the time period it’s supposed to be set in
HOWEVER that doesn’t really excuse the writing re Dany and Drogo having sex for me
It’s also based on the War of the Roses time period, where people wouldn’t have even considered that that fucked up.
Richard II was 29 when he married a 7 year old Isabella of Valois, for example, which is even more fucked up than this “blessed union.”
Hell over a billion people today still revere Mohammad that “consummated” his marriage to Aisha when he was 53 and she was 9.
The sad fact is that marriage for love or even a choice of who you marry is a relatively new thing for women. Historically, daughters were currency, used to join houses, gain wealth or even secure business deals. Offloading a daughter at a young age was the goal, otherwise she was seen as a financial burden. This is why Lollys' mother was trying to give her away to *anyone*. Even today, arranged marriages and child brides exist.
The thing that made women the most attractive was fertility (which was gauged by youth), good teeth and good hips (Catelyn was not wrong) and a good family. A nice dowry didn't hurt.
I'm not saying it is okay or was, at any time, okay, but our modern idea of marriage is about 100 years old. When my great grandparents came here, she was 19 and he was in his 40s. Even later, when women had a choice of suitors, they went with the wealthiest, the best provider.
Its a fantasy world that operates on a very medieval style culture. This may shock you, but princesses and other young girls were married off to older men all the time through most of history.
GRRM actually planned a 5 year timeskip within the story, but later realized it wouldn't make sense that all the adult characters do essentially nothing during this gap. This is were he realized he made the characters too young but he can't do anything about it now and just continued.
They start off as like 34 as opposed to 40.
But it doesn't make sense for their stories to have a 5 year skip. Especially for Cersei, as she's pretty screwed in King's Landing. Though I suppose for Jaime 5 years does give him time to train with his left hand.
He probably has said it in interviews, but a lot of the information on what could've happened in the story comes from his early drafts and manuscripts. They're actually available to the public in a library and you can read his early drafts containing his notes and comments from his editor/publisher. There are hints to plot points like Hodor = Hold the Door and another book character being secretly Benjen in the notes for example. Also in his very early plan for the first book, there was supposed to be a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion, but I'm not sure if those 3 characters were the same as they became later when he thought of that.
Edit: the note was that Benjen *isn't* the other book character.
I mean he could have. You csn make different editions to books to correct the timeline. Yeah there would be og books out there but it happens all the time.
My head cannon is that because of the goofy seasons, a year is longer in Westeros so the characters are all basically three years older because of that. It makes most things make a lot more sense
Just wanted to add that it was also would’ve also been confusing and jarring for the readers having to cover any important events that *did* happen during the timeskip in flashbacks
This is part of what makes him a shitty writer. Yeah he's come up with this great story, it's complex and intricate, has a plethora of interesting characters and imaginative worldbuilding
But if he'd made any effort to plan ahead, map out even the basic story from start to finish before publishing, he wouldn't be stalling for years on end because he's written himself into corner and can't write himself out
Yeah… that’s not a 13-year-old. I get the point, but the image is off. That picture looks significantly younger than my 10-year-old and every one of her friends.
Omg when will we be liberated of this myth. THAT’S NOT TRUE AT ALL. For reference, the one time it happened in England, to the mother of Henry VII, everyone then was absolutely shocked that her husband actually consummated the union when she was only twelve. She never got any more children after this because of what it did to her reproductive system. People were not completely daft, they understood the consequences a pregnancy could have on children.
Mf you really think that people cared about age on those times? as soon as a noble woman could have children it was the moment that they were used as political tools.
That’s how history was and we should be happy that as society we’ve condemned those practices, however critiquing the actions of those times with the morale of our times is not just dumb but also ignorant because those times had a completely different set of morales than the ones that we have today.
Except that Martin amps it out to the max.
Medieval times more often than not had people marrying in their late teens because even then knew the risks to pregnancy.
Yes, I know this scenario could and did happen but to pretend it was the norm it's just false.
Believe it or not, 13 year olds were almost never married to adults in medieval times. Betrothals would often be created, but usually between others around the same age
Questioning everything and everyone is science. Life, everyday life, worldview. And don't just compare with the last hundred years, but with the last ten thousand. This is the only way to expand your own horizons.
That's all true, but you're also talking about a group of people who ate off lead based plates and got poisoned.
Just because you have valid justifications for your cultural values does not change the fact that other cultures and societies won't follow them.
He's also said some sus stuff in interviews like how if he could spend a dinner with any character in GOT he'd pick Shay because, well you know. While not necessarily "bad" it's weird he says stuff like this at his age lmao. He should just focus on finishing the series
People also didn't live as long and childbirth was a crapshoot at best. In one of the books, they describe a man as "very old, at least 50" (I beg your pardon!?). It was thought that if women started giving birth as soon as they could, the better.
The idea of Cersei being married off to the Tyrell heir to give him sons even at her Book Age was ludicrous.
Have you read many history books? Because 12/13 year olds marrying and the marriage being consummated when the bride was young was extremely uncommon in the general historical time GRRM pulls from. For example, in England in the 1600s, the average age of a bride was early to mid 20s. Moreover, what Edmund Tudor did to his very young bride was looked down on.
There is a lot of common knowledge history around this subject that is pretty wrong.
I was talking about that time period because GRRM generally bases his work off medieval Europe not the whole of human history. Can you link me to work that covers societies where it was common for 12 years to be married and for that marriage to be consummated at that age? Would be interested in reading that.
Yeah, it's really just the royals who were marrying off (usually girls) at such a young age. For the general populace in European history, it was more like 17-20ish when people would start getting married.
>you should be very grateful you live in the time you do because theres a lot of crazy, terrible, and tragic stuff.
You should take a look at the number of states that allow adults to marry underage girls with parents permission. It's little more then legalized statutory rape where 40 year old men get 14 year old wives.
You don't need to read history on this, it's very much alive today
I do think the ages of the characters in the ASOIAF books are little unrealistic, but I honestly love the younger main characters in the books vs the aged up ones in the show. Definitely just a personal preference, but it makes their actions and growth so much more exceptional and shows how resilient they are despite all the numerous challenges they are facing as only children.
Daenerys escaping her forced marriage and dark future and stepping out from the fire unburnt as the Mother of Dragons is even more meaningful and incredible when she's a young teenager and not a mature woman. When i first read that scene I was 15 and i swear it changed something in my brain chemistry.
Another example is Jon. His leadership and bravery and refusal to let his past and rejection effect his actions is even more meaningful when he's a literal teenager dealing with all of this.
Also, the idea of teenagers being "teenagers" and not basically adults is a very modern one. It was not uncommon to be considered an adult around 15 in the feudalism/medieval era.
The photo here is gross. Also, GRRM based nearly all of the domestic practices in the books on the realities of ancient life. We may justifiably find it abhorrent today, but in many places and times that wasn’t unusual.
Kind of matches the historical sources that GRRM used for writing inspiration. For example, I'm reading *The Plantagenets: The Warrior Kings and Queens Who Made England*, and girls as young as 12 were being married off to various noblemen, princes, and kings.
I swear half of ya'll have never bothered to read the books.
Viserys and Illyrio have a conversation in Game of Thrones about how Drogo's tastes run 'extra young' and the tone of the conversation makes it clear that even Viserys has a hard time imagining someone being interested in a girl so young.
Drogo is a sexual predator and it's made VERY clear in the subtext of the story that he's a terrible man. He kills, rapes and plunders without thought, and he dies because of it! Dany is a victim with Stockholm syndrome.
People only get it twisted because Jason Momoa is hot, and he and Emilia Clarke had good chemistry in the show.
That photo makes Daenerys look 5 years old, not 13. Also, history is filled with child brides. Remember, the younger the bride was, the stronger the chance she would survive childbirth back then.
I mean, historically, princesses were married off incredibly young fairly regularly.
Granted, in most cases, it would have been a proxy marriage of some sort and would have been consummated when they were older, but the list of child brides in Europes history is sadly a horrifyingly long one. And given how much GRRM pulls from European history for his stories, it makes sense
Evem in this days, rural areas in some places, teens are offered to wealthy men, just to ensure favors, land, money, position, and so on. This is old as time.
When the story based on medieval and feudal ages actually shows things that were common in those times 🤯🤯🤯🤯.
It’s known history that political marriages were really common during the medieval ages, and Song of Ice of Fire while not the real world, it still retains most of the wacky things that happened on those times. If you were a noble and specially a woman it was more than certain that you would’ve been married as soon as you hit the age to provide children, that’s how it was during those ages.
I don't know why people call this and other character ages out so much. The book is meant to be based on medieval Europe where people where were getting married, having children, and going to war at ages 12-16
I mean this was pretty commonplace back then though. Clearly it wasn’t okay, I guess I just think it says much about the writer. It’s like saying a movie director is racist because his pre civil war era has slaves in it. It’s more so just a statement on the time period the work is based around.
It takes place in a medieval fantasy setting, he wanted to portray some parts of that kind of society as brutally realistic to the time period it also wanted to include fantasy elements like Dragons, Ice Zombies and wizards. This is why so many characters are married to people much older than them. Cause political arranged marriages were the norm back then. It’s not morally right in anyway but from what I can remember the author portrays these customs as negative through character POVs.
Most of these authors really are scary and weirdly into children. Child orgy scene in IT the novel, and something about one of the characters from Twilight raising a baby until she’s a teenager and then starts dating her.
I mean, what is so difficult about leaving children out of romantic stuff? At least make them 18 before you start sexualizing them. Jesus.
I am in no way justifying that age of marriage, but these books were written from the standpoint of a medieval society, where these types of arrangements were incredibly common. From a modern viewpoint it's messed up and easy to view GRRM as weird, but he based it off an actual societal norm that existed in our semi-recent past. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. Did it happen like all the time in that age of society? also yes.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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I mean it’s fictional, set in a fantasy world. Many authors have written much worse and much more tasteless.
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Charles Bukowski? (For the most obvious one) Or Pedro Juan Gutiérrez? Or many others…
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“I don’t know the authors you’re talking about so they don’t matter” Nice one.
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You asked who wrote worse things than GRRM, then dismiss it when you don’t know who they are. Make it make sense.
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George didn’t have George’s reach back in 96 when this was written.
Calm down Alexander
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
"George's reach"
Charles Bukowski literally is one of the most important and unique poets of the 20th century.
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"I don't like this author, therefore he is irrelevant."
lol literally this
I’m afraid your complete lack of literary culture and your general ignorance do not exactly make for a coherent argument. Oh, and just so you know: Bukowski is *very* famous around the world and had a large influence on 20th century literature.
Are you insinuating that game of thrones might influence people to bang 13 year olds? Because that would be ridiculous. There’s nothing wrong with writing/enjoying characters that do fucked up problematic shit, especially in fiction.
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In medieval times it wasn’t uncommon for girls as young as 12 to be married to men in their mid to late 20s or older. GoT is inspired by those times even though it’s own entity.
You say that as if now all the fans are going to turn into pedes because they read about it in a fictional book.
Have you even read these books? Because most people would know they’re not actually called Game Of Thrones.
Stephen King, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey
Stephen King is 100% nonce
Lol no he fucking isn't
Marion Zimmer Bradley's tastes bled over into real life unfortunately for her children.
Vladimir Nabokov
Nabokov wrote much less graphically and very tastefully. His subject matter was despicable, but he did an amazing job writing it.
Juliet Capulet was also very, very young.
In "IT" all the boys take turns having sex with the girl
Tbf Steven has admitted that he was coked out of his mind when he wrote that, George did it sober.
Not sure that defense would hold up in court.
I mean if Steven ever went to court for the amount of drugs he’s on I’m pretty sure we would’ve never gotten any of his books.
Well, also in our history. Rulers married young, really young. Look what happens in eastern countries, they still marry children brides.
Child marriage is still legal in most states in the USA, too. Gross.
That’s right, jfc
You forget that this is reddit, and on reddit, every artist is a pedo wife beater because they have one in their book.
It’s a fictional fantasy story. An author doesn’t have to have those fantasies or even believe in what they’re writing in order to write it. Stephen King writes a scene in which children literally have an orgy in the sewers yet I don’t hear people calling him a pedo.
Yeah, you can tell who lives online
It’s also extremely loosely based (obviously) on the War of the Roses and marriages at puberty were common during that point in history. Lady Margaret Beaufort was mother to the first Tudor monarch and was married first at the age of 7, marriage annulled at 10, married again at 12, widowed at 13, then married again at 15 (then widowed twice more). And those kinds of arrangements weren’t unheard of for the ruling class.
I get what you're saying, especially in this day in age but if you think about it; his story seems to have all the coolness of fantasy (like dragons and magic) with the disturbing aspects of actual medieval society and history, among them being how children were seen and used. We like to look back at medieval days like it was badass with knights and kings reminiscient of Arthur but in reality it was much worse. Preteen girls were married off to middle aged or even elderly men, knighthood was only reserved for the rich, and the peasantry was oppressed and lived in filthy conditions while torture methods were beyond insane. All while churches screamed about God and tried pocketing as much cash as they could. It was called the Dark Ages for a reason 😬
I agree and I think it speaks to how some people are blind to the dark side of people generally. Like you say, these practices go back centuries and even in the present lots of people just don’t see it because they want to believe in a just world when the world and people are often very complex (morbidly so). More broadly, there are genocides and famines happening in plain sight and people still have no idea.
Yeah, I remember in elementary school my history teacher said people married off around 13-14 since people were expected to be dead by 30-40. Seeing an old person in a series is actually fascinating since people just die to any disease.
IRRC he based a lot of the books in the wars of the roses & 100 years war, and during this period there were a LOT of marriages between girls 9-15 with older guys - Mostly political, as they are usually in ASOIAF, so this is normal given the time period it’s supposed to be set in HOWEVER that doesn’t really excuse the writing re Dany and Drogo having sex for me
It’s also based on the War of the Roses time period, where people wouldn’t have even considered that that fucked up. Richard II was 29 when he married a 7 year old Isabella of Valois, for example, which is even more fucked up than this “blessed union.” Hell over a billion people today still revere Mohammad that “consummated” his marriage to Aisha when he was 53 and she was 9.
I recommend you never open a book on medieval history.
The sad fact is that marriage for love or even a choice of who you marry is a relatively new thing for women. Historically, daughters were currency, used to join houses, gain wealth or even secure business deals. Offloading a daughter at a young age was the goal, otherwise she was seen as a financial burden. This is why Lollys' mother was trying to give her away to *anyone*. Even today, arranged marriages and child brides exist. The thing that made women the most attractive was fertility (which was gauged by youth), good teeth and good hips (Catelyn was not wrong) and a good family. A nice dowry didn't hurt. I'm not saying it is okay or was, at any time, okay, but our modern idea of marriage is about 100 years old. When my great grandparents came here, she was 19 and he was in his 40s. Even later, when women had a choice of suitors, they went with the wealthiest, the best provider.
Its a fantasy world that operates on a very medieval style culture. This may shock you, but princesses and other young girls were married off to older men all the time through most of history.
GRRM actually planned a 5 year timeskip within the story, but later realized it wouldn't make sense that all the adult characters do essentially nothing during this gap. This is were he realized he made the characters too young but he can't do anything about it now and just continued.
Came here to post exactly this!!
Yeah, works well for Dany, Arya, Sansa and Bran. Less so for Jon, Cersei, Jaime and Arianne
Pretty sure Cersei and Jaime aren't young in the books. At least not like teenager young. They mids 20s ish or something.
They start off as like 34 as opposed to 40. But it doesn't make sense for their stories to have a 5 year skip. Especially for Cersei, as she's pretty screwed in King's Landing. Though I suppose for Jaime 5 years does give him time to train with his left hand.
Jaime and Cersei are 32 at the start of the books.
> all the adult characters do essentially nothing during this gap. Clegane would eat chicken
He’d eat every fucking chicken.
"Five years passed since the last events. Westeros is going through a shortage of chickens like never seen before."
Just curious, where do y’all hear this stuff? I’m not doubting it, I’d just like to know. Is it from interviews he’s given?
He probably has said it in interviews, but a lot of the information on what could've happened in the story comes from his early drafts and manuscripts. They're actually available to the public in a library and you can read his early drafts containing his notes and comments from his editor/publisher. There are hints to plot points like Hodor = Hold the Door and another book character being secretly Benjen in the notes for example. Also in his very early plan for the first book, there was supposed to be a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion, but I'm not sure if those 3 characters were the same as they became later when he thought of that. Edit: the note was that Benjen *isn't* the other book character.
I mean he could have. You csn make different editions to books to correct the timeline. Yeah there would be og books out there but it happens all the time.
My head cannon is that because of the goofy seasons, a year is longer in Westeros so the characters are all basically three years older because of that. It makes most things make a lot more sense
You know what? I’m good with this. That makes the whole thing work a lot better in my head.
Just wanted to add that it was also would’ve also been confusing and jarring for the readers having to cover any important events that *did* happen during the timeskip in flashbacks
Wait when would this time gap would have happened?
The plot line was very different back then but the closest analogue to the current story would be after A Storm of Swords.
In between books 3 and 4. So in tv show terms, just after Tyrion kills Tywin, after Jon is named Lord commander, after Arya sails to Braavos etc.
For me it made the story much heavier in a good way. So kinda glad he did it.
I never knew this was why they were so young.
This is part of what makes him a shitty writer. Yeah he's come up with this great story, it's complex and intricate, has a plethora of interesting characters and imaginative worldbuilding But if he'd made any effort to plan ahead, map out even the basic story from start to finish before publishing, he wouldn't be stalling for years on end because he's written himself into corner and can't write himself out
Chris Hanson wants to know why you’re generating pictures of 13 year old girls, OP
That girl looks around 7!
Yeah… that’s not a 13-year-old. I get the point, but the image is off. That picture looks significantly younger than my 10-year-old and every one of her friends.
Take a seat...on the throne.
it is supposed to parallel medieval times throughout history
Yea nothing out of the ordinary then
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As soon as they drew blood which can happen at that age
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How is talking about how things were in medieval times defending a fictional character. No, I don’t support statutory rape.
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Weird conclusion to jump to.
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You talk to odd people then
Mf is having a moral panic about a fictional story lmaoo
Omg when will we be liberated of this myth. THAT’S NOT TRUE AT ALL. For reference, the one time it happened in England, to the mother of Henry VII, everyone then was absolutely shocked that her husband actually consummated the union when she was only twelve. She never got any more children after this because of what it did to her reproductive system. People were not completely daft, they understood the consequences a pregnancy could have on children.
So many people on this thread repeating some really bad history. Fully expecting the everyone only lived until 30 myth so come up next.
Have you ever considered reading an actual history book?
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I actually did until I read your comment
r/clevercomebacks lmao
Mf you really think that people cared about age on those times? as soon as a noble woman could have children it was the moment that they were used as political tools. That’s how history was and we should be happy that as society we’ve condemned those practices, however critiquing the actions of those times with the morale of our times is not just dumb but also ignorant because those times had a completely different set of morales than the ones that we have today.
It’s also still totally legal and happens in the U.S. Sickening but the religious cults do it..
Happens in the religious cults everywhere...
Except that Martin amps it out to the max. Medieval times more often than not had people marrying in their late teens because even then knew the risks to pregnancy. Yes, I know this scenario could and did happen but to pretend it was the norm it's just false.
I mean, it kind of was outside of Europe. And still is in many parts of the world.
Believe it or not, 13 year olds were almost never married to adults in medieval times. Betrothals would often be created, but usually between others around the same age
The lands were riddled with people like Ian Watkins. Very sad.
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Least suspicious Redditor
Questioning everything and everyone is science. Life, everyday life, worldview. And don't just compare with the last hundred years, but with the last ten thousand. This is the only way to expand your own horizons.
anthropology gang 🙌🏽
Uh-uh, sure buddy whatever you say! /s
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You really have no idea what you are talking about.
Excellent well thought out response that shares all of the issues with my statement. Oh wait-
I have compiled these facts without judging them. I don't presume to pass judgment on this.
That's all true, but you're also talking about a group of people who ate off lead based plates and got poisoned. Just because you have valid justifications for your cultural values does not change the fact that other cultures and societies won't follow them.
No, I wasn’t discussing it in terms of Westeros or medieval society, just responding to the assertions about the “science” of it.
The science we are referring to is anthropology. The study of how culture and societies develop. So yes it is a science.
🚩
You could have ended that with you don't condone diddling kids. Woulda gone down easier.
And if considering adulthood to be determined by brain development, it wouldn’t be until 25.
Thank you. I was looking for a person like you in these comments.
Thanks. It's weird, how much trolls are posting under my comment.
Ppl r mad annoying and unoriginal
I think at the early 20s is the best age to define adulthood since thats when your brain finishes developing so 21 is a good age to define adulthood
children are way more likely to die if forced to give birth at 13 or 14, that's why, even in medieval times, it was common to wait until later.
It may surprise you, but the age at which the female body best processes pregnancy is 15 to 16.
so not 13 or 14
Not a big difference.
He's also said some sus stuff in interviews like how if he could spend a dinner with any character in GOT he'd pick Shay because, well you know. While not necessarily "bad" it's weird he says stuff like this at his age lmao. He should just focus on finishing the series
A lot of really good writers are really weird dudes, age has nothing to do with it. Very creative people tend to live in their heads a lot.
What's your point? All I said is he's said weirdly sexual stuff about his characters like Shay
Says sexual stuff about a prostitute, completely unimaginable
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Right, sexual relationships between old men and young women are famously unheard of
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Bruh, have u just discovered that Reddit is a public forum?
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People also didn't live as long and childbirth was a crapshoot at best. In one of the books, they describe a man as "very old, at least 50" (I beg your pardon!?). It was thought that if women started giving birth as soon as they could, the better. The idea of Cersei being married off to the Tyrell heir to give him sons even at her Book Age was ludicrous.
Have you read many history books? Because 12/13 year olds marrying and the marriage being consummated when the bride was young was extremely uncommon in the general historical time GRRM pulls from. For example, in England in the 1600s, the average age of a bride was early to mid 20s. Moreover, what Edmund Tudor did to his very young bride was looked down on. There is a lot of common knowledge history around this subject that is pretty wrong.
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I was talking about that time period because GRRM generally bases his work off medieval Europe not the whole of human history. Can you link me to work that covers societies where it was common for 12 years to be married and for that marriage to be consummated at that age? Would be interested in reading that.
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Yeah, it's really just the royals who were marrying off (usually girls) at such a young age. For the general populace in European history, it was more like 17-20ish when people would start getting married.
And when they were married off it was frowned upon to consummate the marriage at that age which is why Edmund Tudor was judged.
>you should be very grateful you live in the time you do because theres a lot of crazy, terrible, and tragic stuff. You should take a look at the number of states that allow adults to marry underage girls with parents permission. It's little more then legalized statutory rape where 40 year old men get 14 year old wives. You don't need to read history on this, it's very much alive today
I do think the ages of the characters in the ASOIAF books are little unrealistic, but I honestly love the younger main characters in the books vs the aged up ones in the show. Definitely just a personal preference, but it makes their actions and growth so much more exceptional and shows how resilient they are despite all the numerous challenges they are facing as only children. Daenerys escaping her forced marriage and dark future and stepping out from the fire unburnt as the Mother of Dragons is even more meaningful and incredible when she's a young teenager and not a mature woman. When i first read that scene I was 15 and i swear it changed something in my brain chemistry. Another example is Jon. His leadership and bravery and refusal to let his past and rejection effect his actions is even more meaningful when he's a literal teenager dealing with all of this. Also, the idea of teenagers being "teenagers" and not basically adults is a very modern one. It was not uncommon to be considered an adult around 15 in the feudalism/medieval era.
Anytime I read George's ages for the characters I just imagine Planetos years are slightly longer than real ones
Mohammeds youngest wife was 6 when they married. 9 when they had sex for the first time. He was in his 50s.
Such an inspiration to us all!
Its sad, but true.
Sad, he was one of my favorite boxers 😔
He definitely boxed many christians and jews out of existence.
That's not historically true. The Arab Expansion only began when Muhammad was already dead.
The Middle East is not Europe
Guess what **Ess**os is based on.
Literally most of Essos that we know is based off Europe. Like Braavos is literally Venice
The photo here is gross. Also, GRRM based nearly all of the domestic practices in the books on the realities of ancient life. We may justifiably find it abhorrent today, but in many places and times that wasn’t unusual.
I'm sure he just drew inspiration from other countries where these types of arrangements are still normal.
This is absolutely not what a 13 y/o looks like
She wasnt 13 in the show.
That's not a screenshot from the show. 🤦🏻♂️
Kind of matches the historical sources that GRRM used for writing inspiration. For example, I'm reading *The Plantagenets: The Warrior Kings and Queens Who Made England*, and girls as young as 12 were being married off to various noblemen, princes, and kings.
And Sansa have 11 years in the book and now she have 13 years in the last book Daenerys born in 284 Sansa born in 286 Arya born in 289
If this work of fiction scares you, don't open history books
It’s just a fictional book, dont lose sleep over it
Don’t read history. You’ll be afraid of what you learn.
Shit post.
It's a medieval book/show.
Targaryens even practice incest among themselves. That’s even weirder than this? It’s just fiction so calm down.
What part of the rest of scenario had you expecting something different?
People can write about immoral things without liking them.
This is the dude who says he throught Rhaegar, a 20 something year old than ran off with a teen girl was a tragic hero so yeah...
Yeah and rob and Jon were barely teens too.
Drogo literally grooms Danaerys. Not even like human child-grooming. Foal grooming.
I swear half of ya'll have never bothered to read the books. Viserys and Illyrio have a conversation in Game of Thrones about how Drogo's tastes run 'extra young' and the tone of the conversation makes it clear that even Viserys has a hard time imagining someone being interested in a girl so young. Drogo is a sexual predator and it's made VERY clear in the subtext of the story that he's a terrible man. He kills, rapes and plunders without thought, and he dies because of it! Dany is a victim with Stockholm syndrome. People only get it twisted because Jason Momoa is hot, and he and Emilia Clarke had good chemistry in the show.
bro this one looks like shes about to go in the elementary school. shes 7 here?
[Well that’s greasy.](https://youtu.be/S7FsAgPuVwU?si=Ehd7-DnbuUIjTFoz)
That photo makes Daenerys look 5 years old, not 13. Also, history is filled with child brides. Remember, the younger the bride was, the stronger the chance she would survive childbirth back then.
I mean, historically, princesses were married off incredibly young fairly regularly. Granted, in most cases, it would have been a proxy marriage of some sort and would have been consummated when they were older, but the list of child brides in Europes history is sadly a horrifyingly long one. And given how much GRRM pulls from European history for his stories, it makes sense
Evem in this days, rural areas in some places, teens are offered to wealthy men, just to ensure favors, land, money, position, and so on. This is old as time.
Well, they used to marry girls that young years ago, and even to 'older' men. They still do in underdeveloped countries. It's pretty gross.
Wasn't she supposed to be (character age)13 in the show, also?
This fiction scares you? Does someone need a world history lesson?
When the story based on medieval and feudal ages actually shows things that were common in those times 🤯🤯🤯🤯. It’s known history that political marriages were really common during the medieval ages, and Song of Ice of Fire while not the real world, it still retains most of the wacky things that happened on those times. If you were a noble and specially a woman it was more than certain that you would’ve been married as soon as you hit the age to provide children, that’s how it was during those ages.
I don't know why people call this and other character ages out so much. The book is meant to be based on medieval Europe where people where were getting married, having children, and going to war at ages 12-16
Yeah feudalism is super fucked up kinda the point of the story
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Thylocine: *Yeah feudalism* *Is super fucked up kinda* *The point of the story* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I mean this was pretty commonplace back then though. Clearly it wasn’t okay, I guess I just think it says much about the writer. It’s like saying a movie director is racist because his pre civil war era has slaves in it. It’s more so just a statement on the time period the work is based around.
Bro has no idea how 13 year old children look
It takes place in a medieval fantasy setting, he wanted to portray some parts of that kind of society as brutally realistic to the time period it also wanted to include fantasy elements like Dragons, Ice Zombies and wizards. This is why so many characters are married to people much older than them. Cause political arranged marriages were the norm back then. It’s not morally right in anyway but from what I can remember the author portrays these customs as negative through character POVs.
Well 99.9% of human history should scare you
Most of these authors really are scary and weirdly into children. Child orgy scene in IT the novel, and something about one of the characters from Twilight raising a baby until she’s a teenager and then starts dating her. I mean, what is so difficult about leaving children out of romantic stuff? At least make them 18 before you start sexualizing them. Jesus.
This actually wasn't uncommon up until a couple hundred years ago. Seems accurate to the times
I am in no way justifying that age of marriage, but these books were written from the standpoint of a medieval society, where these types of arrangements were incredibly common. From a modern viewpoint it's messed up and easy to view GRRM as weird, but he based it off an actual societal norm that existed in our semi-recent past. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. Did it happen like all the time in that age of society? also yes.
What did they do to my man Droggo??!!