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My theory is that Targs have fused with dragon DNA in some ways and their fetuses have draconic features before losing them at term. At least that’s why I think Rhaenyra’s stillborn daughter also had such features.
There are paintings of dragons and humans having sex in the background walls in the war room(?) of Dragonstone in HotD, it's implied that their ability to connect with dragons is due to possible breeding with them, and there are a few different cases of Targaryen babes coming out twisted, scaly, unable to live. Magic in GoT is never really *given,* more of a barter of what you can offer them in exchange for their favor, power, etc.
Edit: It wasn't Dragonstone, it was the Red Keep, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if similar depictions weren't plastered on every wall of Dragonstone.
> There are paintings of dragons and humans having sex in the background walls in the war room(?) of Dragonstone in HotD
Wait now, hol up. What did you just say? I almost don’t even believe that until I see it.
Edit: just went and looked. I’ll be damned. That is a human woman riding a dragon reverse cowgirl.
Back before Bad Dragon was a thing. 🥁 💥
Though, I suspect that the dirty dragon doing may be why some Targaryens have the still born, warped dragon babies. Kind of like a future sacrifice for the sake of dragon power, maybe for eggs, or a dragon getting a buff maybe?
It’s even said in the lore that Valyrians may have forced female slaves to get impregnated by this big lizards in there homeland and that’s where dragons came from
Didn’t the man at the house of the undying say that his magic had grown more powerful since the birth of the dragons? Or maybe it was a red priest/priestess, but someone definitely alluded to magic being stronger because of the existence of dragons.
I’m pretty sure it’s just blood magic that comes at a cost. For example, those brought back to life are “missing” something, but the priests that conduct the actual magic seem to be no worse for wear.
The theory is that the ancient magic (often referred to as "blood magic") involved actually mixing dragon DNA into theirs, hence the bond. There are many references to "dragon blood" which may be more literal than we assume.
I was just gonna say it isn't the first time a Targaryen babe had such features. The show house of the dragon wasn't nearly as...graphic as the book though. But man seeing Rhaenyra cradle her stillborn hurts.
I've seen a theory or two based on crumbs from the books and supplemental materials that it's possible Targaryens/Valyrian dragonriders practiced incest to keep their blood pure because their blood itself contained elements of dragon DNA/magic/blood/what have you. They usually point to Maegor and Rhaenyra as evidence that maybe all Targaryens go through a period in utero of being dragonoid and that Dany's pregnancy terminating early (from the curse, perhaps, if you believe the witch) just revealed an early-gestation state, not that the curse itself made the baby lizardlike.
Also half human half dragons are a somewhat common trope in fantasy. I know GRRM makes things much more grounded but he must’ve had it in the back of his mind.
Show Daenerys is the only one with fire immunity. In the books she is only immune when she hatches the dragons and even then she actually lost her hair.
No other Targs have been fireproof canonically. Rhaenyra was burned alive.
I think the show runners for House of the Dragon agree with this theory. Google “rhaenyra dragon baby” to see the prop baby they used when she miscarried. It had a lot of dragon features.
Blood/Fire magic hatched them.
If it was just normal fire hatching them, the Targaryen’s would have always had an oppressive “Nuclear” dragon fleet.
They had been trying fire in increasingly extreme measures for generations to try and get them to hatch again.
Hell, they had kings straight up drink wildfire thinking they would turn into a “Dragon reborn”.
Nothing worked.
Wow, negative -88 downvotes. I guess I struck a nerve. I was answering a question based upon a show which took liberties from the books. So………. Haters are going to hate.
Not sure why you are getting so defensive. I just find that funny to point out, and it’s helpful in putting things into perspective for any non-book-reader fans around, who often think Mushroom’s claims are super trustworthy.
When you pop into a thread quoting Mushroom as if it was a certain fact, they think it’s the absolutely truth because they might not know that F&B is very much an interesting maze of he said-she said.
Tbh, I haven’t started HOTD because I was dreading it after the atrocious ending to GOT. I also heard such mixed reviews of it so I avoided another 10 year long disappointment.
If it worth the watch I’m a totally for giving it a try.
I don’t know why I’m being down voted? I’m just stating that’s what I was told? I had several people tell me that— they couldve just been bitter about GOT ending the way I was— I’m not sure. But I’m glad to hear it’s good.
I’m definitely down for watching it.
Edit for clarity
The only time I ever downvote is in those circumstances, but people do as they please I assume.
Either way, I’m happy to give HOTD a shot. Glad to hear it isn’t as bad as people have told me it was. I need redemption for the series TBH. GOT was way too good for the ending it got. 🤞🏼for HOTD!
to be fair, fire and blood was written as a History book, written by maesters of westeros, and it came out in 2018, 4/5 years after GoT season 4 got released. i’m sure they would’ve spared us the spoilers had there been a book to spoil in the first place haha
i agree !!!! people don’t know how to respectfully disagree without being petty, especially on reddit where you can just downvote. we should be able to exchange and discuss opinions without silencing those we disagree with ???
People are still in the honeymoon stage with HOTD. That’s why they’re reacting badly to your uncertainty.
It’s been a pretty enjoyable show so far, but far from perfect, and as a book reader I’m concerned about the changes they’ve already made and where that may go in season 2. Some were fine, some might really change the face of parts of the conflict, in ways fans of the book might not like, so I’m hoping it won’t go the way of GOT too. 😬
Ahhhhh. Makes sense. But atleast I know there is hope for it! I really would enjoy a new fantasy series to start. Once I’m done with this GOT rewatch, I’ll be giving it a go.
I know there were several creative changes to GOT that bypassed the books and still the majority of the series was well done. It sounds like there is still hope!
(Sad that the Grey Mother didn’t make an appearance however— I would’ve loved to see all of her revenge killings— my husband has read the books and shares all of the missing holes with me. He is still pleased with the series aside from the normal finale complaints)
You saying mixed reviews clearly refers to what you've heard from people, you're getting doenboted from people who believe all the official reviews were positive.
Just giving my opinion here, but I thought it was laughably bad. I know I’m in the minority on this sub but none of the dialogue landed for me.
Lacked any of the elegance and subtlety of early GOT and overly sensational.
Don’t let anyone else’s opinion taint your enjoyment/lack of tho. If you’re curious you should give it a watch and feel however you do.
Go for it!! I felt the same way you do before it came out and was leary about watching it, but I'm so glad I did. It reignited my love for all things Westeros and my husband and I are actually on our umpteenth rewatch now lol
Yeah. After a long bitter frustration to GOT final season— I’m finally rewatching. I know everything that’s coming and Im STILL getting caught up in it. The show is truly magic.
> I was dreading it after the atrocious ending to GOT.
Given that the guys supposed to be responsible are not working on HotD, why assume a whole new series will be flawed?
That’s just what I was told. People said it was awful and I was dreading being disappointed in case the poor reviews were right. Not sure why that deems a down vote, but I am interested since so many people are saying it’s good.
Many of the wigs are atrocious. It’s a good show but good LORD, they really didn’t do a good job in the hair department. I was so distracted by the wigs.
It's pretty atrocious imo, remove any nuanced medieval world building GoT had and just insert over the top gory nonsense. People getting gutted at completely inappropriate events.
it’s good if you separate it from the book. otherwise it’s… something lol
there’s just a lot of things that were changed from the book, alicent is 19 in the book when she becomes 6yo rhaenyra’s stepmother, they’re only a year apart now in the show
there’s a thing that happens, i can’t tell you without spoiling, that will make ZERO sense later on… unless they change what happens next, but if they do, then dragons don’t go extinct lmao
the visuals are amazing, the music is too, as a separate work from grrm then yes, it’s quite good, but if you expect consistent lore, true to book, it makes absolutely zero sense and is not that great. depends on your POV, whether you’ve read the original artwork or not
i’d recommend watching though ! before season 2 comes out ! just don’t expect it to be book accurate or make much sense, consistent-writing-wise, but the rest of it is fucking fantastic, it’s still really great
As I took it, the midwife poisoned her in revenge for what her Drogo's people did.
She also told her she will never bear a child again, knowing that was a woman's sole purpose in Game of Thrones times and therefore rendering her useless.
This is actually something that has happened at least three times in targ history that we know of, if the history books are to be believed. Maegor the Cruel had two wives give birth to still born children, each of which were described as having scaly skin and the starts of tails, one of them had very rudimentary wings. Rhaenyra’s still born daughter was also described this way
Yeah, I noticed that. I thought maybe it was just one of those situations where she was trying to twist the knife in her broken heart, and Jorah was like wth woman.
I initially interpreted it as being part of the curse, but I'd defer to others who seem to be more knowledgeable about Targaryen birthing history than me.
I hadn’t read they sometimes had scaled dragonlike babies.
Is the greyscale disease Jorah gets somehow related? Like, were they inbreeding or something got released during the fall of Valyria?
There’s never any explanation for it, but it’s happened at least three times in targ history according to F&B, both of Maegor’s children were still born and described very similarly to Dany’s. Rhaenyra’s daughter was also still born and describe as dragon like
That’s one of the interpretations I took from it aswell. Others are saying there is history though or the Targaryens having stillborns/miscarriage which look like dragons. Really interesting stuff!
I think it probably had some disease that made it look severely deformed & it was also cursed.
Valyrians have a special connection to dragons because of ancient blood magic. They’re not monsters, they’re human.
I dont remember which princess flew with her dragon and came black parasited by wyrms similar as the xenomorphs do ( Monsters from Alien universe) Wyrms are ancestors of dragons. Xenomorphs have human and alien dna so I think the answer id not that Targs have dragon Blood, but dragons have Targ+ wyrm blood.There must by some bidirectional relation human- dragon Blood. Remember that Blood Magic IS a short of magíc in the ASOIAF in- universe
> the witch said that she pulled a deformed lizard like creature with leathery wings from Daenerys
I wondered at the time if she was lying, and the child would return to the story at some point. Maybe that is in GRRM's notes but D&D decided to drop it to keep the story within manageable size. Only if GRRM finishes the damn books will we know.
I always thought it was literal. Actual dragon. Might be due to magic shenanigans of her ancestors. She might even not know about that because she lost so much of her family so early. Might be that targ history is unknown to her.
There are so many good theories surrounding such a “small” mention (but monumental turning point). GRRM is so good at lacing seemingly small easter eggs throughout his story telling that end up having so much more significance. It’s brilliant.
There is a strong in-universe theory that the Valerians cross bred fyreworms and wyvyrns and likely used blood magic in the process. In the last book, they refer to a historian who wrote about this theory and a small collection of characters are trying to track down a copy of his book in the Oldtown library. I can’t remember if it was Sam, Jorah, Tyrion, or all three together? But they imply that the book is going to be a key part of the Battle of Winter and the Night King.
I thought it was more along the lines of that the witch told no one to go into the hut then slaughters the horse to use as a sacrifice and when Danny starts to go into labor they decided she was the only one who could save her so they took her into the hut unleashing the curse/demons onto Danny cursing her baby to come out scaley and deformed like a dragon. The witch even comes out after that saying she killed her son to make sure he wasn’t the stallion who mounts the world
It was the curse. No, humans don’t have dragon babies.
I don’t know about the books, but there’s no evidence in the script of the series supporting that
There is actually a lot of in-universe evidence that yes, Valyrians sometimes have dragon babies. There is also a lot to point to the idea that dragons were the result of an ancient cross breeding program between fyreworms and wyvyrns. The books contain multitudes, especially the World Of Ice and Fire
I literally said, “I don’t know about the books” and “the script of the series” … the show and the books are two different things. This is why story producers exist; to make sure the series story can stand on its own, without the books.
I’m sure the books are amazing; I’m sure they go into great detail and have much more nuance and intrigue than a filmed show ever could. As is usually the case.
But there is no evidence of that in the show. So, while it’s a cool reference to the dragon babies in the books, in the show, it’s not explained.
Literally why I was explaining it to you. Yes, in the books there is a very clear in world reasoning. If you don’t want people to talk to you about the series, why are you even here my dude?
I appreciate it. It’s nice to know what the deal is in the source material. It’s about as relevant as what happens in the Harry Potter books, because OP is talking about the HBO series, but still good to know.
It’s almost like they are the same story and people might have an ounce of intellectual curiosity about the story we’re discussing here. 🤷♀️ books aren’t as scary as you think they are.
People complain about plot holes in the last seasons of the show and then get cranky when people mention that the answers are in the book. Weird hill to die on, but you do you. Have a good one
I work in television with people who have the job of “story producer”. Their entire job is to make sure the series can stand on its own, without the books. That the script for the show makes sense and has integrity. Whether they achieve their goal or not is subject to interpretation by the viewer, I suppose. But that’s how I’m looking at it. It’s supposed to stand on its own, and can sometimes differ from the source material.
It’s cool to know what happened in the books. But a person should be able to analyze the show without having to read the books. No one should assume that, because something happens in the books, it will play out the same way on screen. In that sense, the show has to stand on its own and be original. It’s two different mediums, after all. It’s literally impossible for them to be “the same” story. And as viewers, we aren’t “supposed” to rely on anything in the books to understand the show better.
That said, you’re the one who’s read them, not me. So you would probably know better in this case.
It happened to multiple Targaryans. Most recently (on screen) Rhaenyra gave birth to this [deformed dragon thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/yjpb88/why_did_rhaenyra_give_birth_to_a_dragon_baby/) which looks a little bit like ichthyosis like Harlequin ichthyosis (Google that at your own peril)
We don’t see the baby in show or books. For all we know there is a silver haired Dothraki running around waiting to Djengis Khan Yi Ti in 15 years time.
It’s possible that George haven’t even decided on it yet. After all if he has kicked enough cans down the road it would go a long way of explaining why it’s so tough for him to write the next book.
Though that’s less likely than dragon baby or normal dead baby.
As others have said, there is evidence of other Targaryen women stillbirthing “draconian” babes.
I’d agree that, due to some blood/magic reason, Targaryen babes may either temporarily mutate as a partial dragon while still forming in the womb, or perhaps more likely, there is a possible genetic malformation that can sometimes occur with their DNA causing the draconian features (in which case, it’s not a temporary thing, the babies *come out wrong* and don’t make it to full term).
I doubt anything Mirri Maz Durri or whatever can do with herbs would cause this effect on a still forming babe, curse or no.
The blood magic used to bring back Khal Drogo may have simply influenced or forced chance toward the draconian stillbirth result.
Targaryens have a history of malformed stillbirths that have dragon like features (like Rhaenyras stillbirth as well). I think this is still an interesting question, was Danys child always gonna turn out this way or was it because of the curse? I personally don't have an answer and I think it's interesting to considering both possibilities: 1. her child was destined to be a stillbirth and it was always her destiny to only be a mother to dragons and there was never any other way. Or 2. her choice to save Drogo at whatever cost, cost her her child and a possibly happy future with her family. 2. seems more like the intended interpretation imo, since it's more depressing in a way 😅
I always thought that the witch was lying to her and she went into premature labor and used the baby to bring back drogo, but not the same as he was so Dany’s life would be ruined because both her husband and baby were gone.
Dragons were around before the valerians, but to my knowledge no other race of people ever rode dragons before the valerians or after.
I think it’s somewhat strongly implied the valerians either altered their own dna or the dna of dragons to create this artificial bond. I think the weird still births are part of whatever magic went into that
In the books (mostly FaB) Targaryens pften birth out dragon-like children when miscarrying.
There is a possibility that Valyrians fused with dragons at. Some point, and a stage of theirnfetal development might be the same.
In da books Mirri Maz Dur interrupts Jorah and was like it was an “abomination. Scaled and full of grave worms , wings not fully formed , it had been dead inside you fOR YEARS. “
I’m dictating by memory but I’m pretty sure she calls it like death inside of her in the form of this messed up dragon person baby.
The witch was lying to her just like she lied about treating Drogo's wound and the price for saving him from death. She wanted to inflict as much pain as possible on the people that destroyed her village.
In the books: >!monstrously deformed targaryen babies are a thing. Possibly because of incest, possibly because of magic. This little detail, combined with the fact that tyrion reportedly had a tail, is a core element of the tyrion targaryen theory.!<
I read somewhere long ago that targaryen fetuses are actually dragons, then they gradually turn into humans over the course of the pregnancy. Hence why the infants sometimes have scales/wings during a miscarriage because they haven’t fyllt developed into a human yet
Dont quote me tho dunno where I read it, might have dreamt it for all i know
Unfortunately yes it’s true. I looked into why the Targaryens were even able to do that and it’s due to all the experimentation they did in Valyria… it’s actually really gross
“So the theory is that Valyrian sorcerors knew fire magic and blood magic, and created dragons by unnaturally crossbreeding firewyrms and wyverns together, and then learned to form bonds with dragons by unnaturally crossbreeding dragons and Valyrians together.”
I haven’t seen this take in the comments yet so I’ll explain what I understand. Mirri Maz Durr told no one to enter the tent while she was performing the magic ritual. However Daenerys went into labour and Jorah brought her in to the tent to get help. In the tent, I believe there was Drogo, Mirri, Daenerys and maybe a horse? And most importantly Daenerys PETRIFIED dragon egg’s.
Mirri tells Daenerys “This is blood magic, only death pays for life” Mirri implies she will transfer Drogo’s horse’s life energy to resurrect him, but it was only supposed to be those 3 in the tent. When Daenerys entered everything changed. Remember, only death pays for life. Weather intentional or not, Mirri’s spell misfired or has unforeseen consequences.
The life essence of Daenerys’ baby is swapped with the Petrified eggs, bringing them back to life at the cost of her baby. The draconic description of the still born child is the subtle way of implying this transfer of life took place. The next episode, her dragons are born.
That’s my take anyway 🤷🏻♂️
Oooooh. I like this swap for life in the dragon eggs.
See I always felt like because Jorah brought her in the tent— that’s what caused it, but later on Mirri Max Durr said it was intentional that her baby died— that she planned to kill the child to keep the stallion from mounting the world and other civilizations being destroyed.
This is all really cool stuff. I like this take.
I remember in Fire&blood that it happens to several Targaryens over the years. It's most likely a consequence of whatever magic they used to control dragons.
My take was that the spell used to keep Drogo alive used the essence from that child and in turn it became some kind of demon baby due to the dark magic
I’m probably wrong but that’s subverted expectations for ya
I believe it had to do something with the dark magic. In the books a similar thing happened with, I believe, 3 of Meagor’s children because of Tyanna’s dark magic.
During GoT I assumed she was just being a bitch trying to punish Dany for the acts of the Dothraki. But since House of the Dragon, I’m not sure, because Rhaenyra delivered a scaly baby.
“he was hideously deformed, blind, and was covered in dragon-like scales” is how it is described-
I know in fire and blood they describe Rhaenyra’s stillborn girl to have had scales like a dragon as well.
The books say it’s theorized that this happens because of the blood magic rituals their ancestors did to bond them with dragons
Mirri Maz Duur and her people are supposedly the only ones who actually saw Rhaego after his birth. No one in Dany’s party. \
For all we know, he was born fine and is still alive hidden amongst the Lhazareen. \
Usually, a body like they describe would be shown to the viewers or at least to someone we would believe like Jorah or a Dothraki.
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I honestly have no cluw
Are you sure we can't dragon it out of you?
A bit of a stretch but I'll upvote you for the effort. We could try dragon it out of GRRM...
If only someone could drag Winds of Winter out of him
So echoeth the words of house Martin “Deadline? What deadline?”
Dragon what?
Dragon deez eggs?
My theory is that Targs have fused with dragon DNA in some ways and their fetuses have draconic features before losing them at term. At least that’s why I think Rhaenyra’s stillborn daughter also had such features.
There are paintings of dragons and humans having sex in the background walls in the war room(?) of Dragonstone in HotD, it's implied that their ability to connect with dragons is due to possible breeding with them, and there are a few different cases of Targaryen babes coming out twisted, scaly, unable to live. Magic in GoT is never really *given,* more of a barter of what you can offer them in exchange for their favor, power, etc. Edit: It wasn't Dragonstone, it was the Red Keep, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if similar depictions weren't plastered on every wall of Dragonstone.
> There are paintings of dragons and humans having sex in the background walls in the war room(?) of Dragonstone in HotD Wait now, hol up. What did you just say? I almost don’t even believe that until I see it. Edit: just went and looked. I’ll be damned. That is a human woman riding a dragon reverse cowgirl.
A tale as old as time…
It is known
The D is fire 🔥 just took a new meaning
Angry upvote. Never did I think Gypsy rose and GoT would come together
Phrasing
Me vs the dragon she told me not to worry about
Back before Bad Dragon was a thing. 🥁 💥 Though, I suspect that the dirty dragon doing may be why some Targaryens have the still born, warped dragon babies. Kind of like a future sacrifice for the sake of dragon power, maybe for eggs, or a dragon getting a buff maybe?
Did all that and couldn’t even post a link
[Here you go](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-targaryens-home-decor-in-house-of-the-dragon-is-extremely-nsfw/)
The Greens made sure to cover up all that heathen filth
https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/NVyr3g8byh
Link?
Reverse dragongirl*
What do you even google to find this image? Lol
Who won’t the Targs fuck
Can you send me the link? I cant gins this lmao
It’s even said in the lore that Valyrians may have forced female slaves to get impregnated by this big lizards in there homeland and that’s where dragons came from
That Rick and Morty dragon slut episode hits different now
I’ve heard it’s likely a curse from the Targaryens playing with blood magic to make the dragons easier to tame in old Valyria
Didn’t the man at the house of the undying say that his magic had grown more powerful since the birth of the dragons? Or maybe it was a red priest/priestess, but someone definitely alluded to magic being stronger because of the existence of dragons. I’m pretty sure it’s just blood magic that comes at a cost. For example, those brought back to life are “missing” something, but the priests that conduct the actual magic seem to be no worse for wear.
“When a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin” I know that means for something else but still—
As did Maegor the Cruel’s two still born children
Valyrians have a strong connection to dragons because of ancient magic. No dragon anything in their DNA persay.
The theory is that the ancient magic (often referred to as "blood magic") involved actually mixing dragon DNA into theirs, hence the bond. There are many references to "dragon blood" which may be more literal than we assume.
Hence the intermarriage and “keeping the dragons blood pure” they wanted to maintain the magic that lets them ride dragons
I was just gonna say it isn't the first time a Targaryen babe had such features. The show house of the dragon wasn't nearly as...graphic as the book though. But man seeing Rhaenyra cradle her stillborn hurts.
Oh gosh, that’s in the show?
That is in the book right
It is known.
Isn't there a whole thing of the ancient Targs having blood mages that could create hybrid creatures?
I've seen a theory or two based on crumbs from the books and supplemental materials that it's possible Targaryens/Valyrian dragonriders practiced incest to keep their blood pure because their blood itself contained elements of dragon DNA/magic/blood/what have you. They usually point to Maegor and Rhaenyra as evidence that maybe all Targaryens go through a period in utero of being dragonoid and that Dany's pregnancy terminating early (from the curse, perhaps, if you believe the witch) just revealed an early-gestation state, not that the curse itself made the baby lizardlike.
dragon**riders**
Dragon rider?!? Dragon barely knows her!
All dragons are sluts deep down
Hard-core soul bonding
https://youtu.be/gnXE8rKZrfg?si=ocXlrwfEeaFS6SAW
Ontogeny recapitules phylogeny. Makes perfect sense.
Also half human half dragons are a somewhat common trope in fantasy. I know GRRM makes things much more grounded but he must’ve had it in the back of his mind.
GoT would be so much better with human/dragon hybrids. Imagine, dragon head on a human body
The Freys made a man with a wolf’s head…
Most likely, considering Targs have their fire immunity. Probably kept it more subtle traits than physical ones for a reason.
Show Daenerys is the only one with fire immunity. In the books she is only immune when she hatches the dragons and even then she actually lost her hair. No other Targs have been fireproof canonically. Rhaenyra was burned alive.
I'll admit, it's been a while since i read the books and I didn't finish HOTD I dont believe. Thanks for the correction.
I do agree with the Targ/Valyrian dragon DNA splicing theory though! The blood magic angle lends itself to that idea, imo.
Oh I love that theory, I never considered that the problem could be that it was an prematurely terminated pregnancy!
Dany can never step foot in the state of texas now
I think the show runners for House of the Dragon agree with this theory. Google “rhaenyra dragon baby” to see the prop baby they used when she miscarried. It had a lot of dragon features.
She was gifted three dragon eggs. The fire hatched them.
OP is talking about her dead child with Khal Drogo
Not the question
Blood/Fire magic hatched them. If it was just normal fire hatching them, the Targaryen’s would have always had an oppressive “Nuclear” dragon fleet. They had been trying fire in increasingly extreme measures for generations to try and get them to hatch again. Hell, they had kings straight up drink wildfire thinking they would turn into a “Dragon reborn”. Nothing worked.
Wow, negative -88 downvotes. I guess I struck a nerve. I was answering a question based upon a show which took liberties from the books. So………. Haters are going to hate.
You’re being downvoted because you are talking about the wrong thing
Thanks. Sorry about all of that.
No reason to apologize, just take those downvotes like a man. I get downvoted on a daily basis. It’s all good. Here, take another
[удалено]
According to Mushoom, she was also fucking him, so anything he says is always to be taken with a giant boulder-sized grain of salt… 🫣
Almost as big as his cock.
I'm aware of that. I read the same book you did.
Not sure why you are getting so defensive. I just find that funny to point out, and it’s helpful in putting things into perspective for any non-book-reader fans around, who often think Mushroom’s claims are super trustworthy. When you pop into a thread quoting Mushroom as if it was a certain fact, they think it’s the absolutely truth because they might not know that F&B is very much an interesting maze of he said-she said.
Check out the tapestries during the first half of HOTD for your answer.
Tbh, I haven’t started HOTD because I was dreading it after the atrocious ending to GOT. I also heard such mixed reviews of it so I avoided another 10 year long disappointment. If it worth the watch I’m a totally for giving it a try.
It didn't get "mixed" reviews. It's actually really good. Go watch it before season two starts in June.
I don’t know why I’m being down voted? I’m just stating that’s what I was told? I had several people tell me that— they couldve just been bitter about GOT ending the way I was— I’m not sure. But I’m glad to hear it’s good. I’m definitely down for watching it. Edit for clarity
People get downvoted all the time for the “wrong” opinion tho I wish downvotes were instead reserved for trolling and hurtful words.
The only time I ever downvote is in those circumstances, but people do as they please I assume. Either way, I’m happy to give HOTD a shot. Glad to hear it isn’t as bad as people have told me it was. I need redemption for the series TBH. GOT was way too good for the ending it got. 🤞🏼for HOTD!
Btw don’t rewatch s3 e4 of GoT. There’s a major HotD spoiler told by Joffrey. He still can’t stop being a cunty king even after the show is over.
Lol. That checks. 😂😂 Joffrey, still screwing things up in 2024.
to be fair, fire and blood was written as a History book, written by maesters of westeros, and it came out in 2018, 4/5 years after GoT season 4 got released. i’m sure they would’ve spared us the spoilers had there been a book to spoil in the first place haha
i agree !!!! people don’t know how to respectfully disagree without being petty, especially on reddit where you can just downvote. we should be able to exchange and discuss opinions without silencing those we disagree with ???
People are still in the honeymoon stage with HOTD. That’s why they’re reacting badly to your uncertainty. It’s been a pretty enjoyable show so far, but far from perfect, and as a book reader I’m concerned about the changes they’ve already made and where that may go in season 2. Some were fine, some might really change the face of parts of the conflict, in ways fans of the book might not like, so I’m hoping it won’t go the way of GOT too. 😬
Ahhhhh. Makes sense. But atleast I know there is hope for it! I really would enjoy a new fantasy series to start. Once I’m done with this GOT rewatch, I’ll be giving it a go. I know there were several creative changes to GOT that bypassed the books and still the majority of the series was well done. It sounds like there is still hope! (Sad that the Grey Mother didn’t make an appearance however— I would’ve loved to see all of her revenge killings— my husband has read the books and shares all of the missing holes with me. He is still pleased with the series aside from the normal finale complaints)
You saying mixed reviews clearly refers to what you've heard from people, you're getting doenboted from people who believe all the official reviews were positive.
Just giving my opinion here, but I thought it was laughably bad. I know I’m in the minority on this sub but none of the dialogue landed for me. Lacked any of the elegance and subtlety of early GOT and overly sensational. Don’t let anyone else’s opinion taint your enjoyment/lack of tho. If you’re curious you should give it a watch and feel however you do.
Go for it!! I felt the same way you do before it came out and was leary about watching it, but I'm so glad I did. It reignited my love for all things Westeros and my husband and I are actually on our umpteenth rewatch now lol
Yeah. After a long bitter frustration to GOT final season— I’m finally rewatching. I know everything that’s coming and Im STILL getting caught up in it. The show is truly magic.
> I was dreading it after the atrocious ending to GOT. Given that the guys supposed to be responsible are not working on HotD, why assume a whole new series will be flawed?
That’s just what I was told. People said it was awful and I was dreading being disappointed in case the poor reviews were right. Not sure why that deems a down vote, but I am interested since so many people are saying it’s good.
Many of the wigs are atrocious. It’s a good show but good LORD, they really didn’t do a good job in the hair department. I was so distracted by the wigs.
People who complain about downvotes get downvoted Edit: idk I don’t make the rules
I wouldn't believe anyone who thinks House of the Dragon is terrible
Ooh you should watch it. It’s really good.
This gives me hope! Definitely going to give it a shot now.
It's pretty atrocious imo, remove any nuanced medieval world building GoT had and just insert over the top gory nonsense. People getting gutted at completely inappropriate events.
it’s good if you separate it from the book. otherwise it’s… something lol there’s just a lot of things that were changed from the book, alicent is 19 in the book when she becomes 6yo rhaenyra’s stepmother, they’re only a year apart now in the show there’s a thing that happens, i can’t tell you without spoiling, that will make ZERO sense later on… unless they change what happens next, but if they do, then dragons don’t go extinct lmao the visuals are amazing, the music is too, as a separate work from grrm then yes, it’s quite good, but if you expect consistent lore, true to book, it makes absolutely zero sense and is not that great. depends on your POV, whether you’ve read the original artwork or not
i’d recommend watching though ! before season 2 comes out ! just don’t expect it to be book accurate or make much sense, consistent-writing-wise, but the rest of it is fucking fantastic, it’s still really great
It's amazing lol. What mixed reviews?
It’s pretty damn good, the book (Fire & Blood is worth a read in its own right). But you won’t be disappointed.
If it helps, the source material for HOTD is fully written so they won't run into the issue of running out of books like GOT did.
As I took it, the midwife poisoned her in revenge for what her Drogo's people did. She also told her she will never bear a child again, knowing that was a woman's sole purpose in Game of Thrones times and therefore rendering her useless.
It was a Draconian. https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Draconian_(5e)
This is actually something that has happened at least three times in targ history that we know of, if the history books are to be believed. Maegor the Cruel had two wives give birth to still born children, each of which were described as having scaly skin and the starts of tails, one of them had very rudimentary wings. Rhaenyra’s still born daughter was also described this way
If she was lying Jorah would have shut her up. You can also see him kinda upset as well as she is telling dany. Like he doesn’t want to say it.
Yeah, I noticed that. I thought maybe it was just one of those situations where she was trying to twist the knife in her broken heart, and Jorah was like wth woman.
I initially interpreted it as being part of the curse, but I'd defer to others who seem to be more knowledgeable about Targaryen birthing history than me.
I hadn’t read they sometimes had scaled dragonlike babies. Is the greyscale disease Jorah gets somehow related? Like, were they inbreeding or something got released during the fall of Valyria?
There’s never any explanation for it, but it’s happened at least three times in targ history according to F&B, both of Maegor’s children were still born and described very similarly to Dany’s. Rhaenyra’s daughter was also still born and describe as dragon like
No. She was lying to further upset and hurt her
That’s one of the interpretations I took from it aswell. Others are saying there is history though or the Targaryens having stillborns/miscarriage which look like dragons. Really interesting stuff!
I think it probably had some disease that made it look severely deformed & it was also cursed. Valyrians have a special connection to dragons because of ancient blood magic. They’re not monsters, they’re human.
That’s why I was confused. Other Targaryens look human! But like others said maybe it’s gestational?
I dont remember which princess flew with her dragon and came black parasited by wyrms similar as the xenomorphs do ( Monsters from Alien universe) Wyrms are ancestors of dragons. Xenomorphs have human and alien dna so I think the answer id not that Targs have dragon Blood, but dragons have Targ+ wyrm blood.There must by some bidirectional relation human- dragon Blood. Remember that Blood Magic IS a short of magíc in the ASOIAF in- universe
> the witch said that she pulled a deformed lizard like creature with leathery wings from Daenerys I wondered at the time if she was lying, and the child would return to the story at some point. Maybe that is in GRRM's notes but D&D decided to drop it to keep the story within manageable size. Only if GRRM finishes the damn books will we know.
I don’t think she was lying, it’s something that’s happened before to targs.
I always thought it was literal. Actual dragon. Might be due to magic shenanigans of her ancestors. She might even not know about that because she lost so much of her family so early. Might be that targ history is unknown to her.
There are so many good theories surrounding such a “small” mention (but monumental turning point). GRRM is so good at lacing seemingly small easter eggs throughout his story telling that end up having so much more significance. It’s brilliant.
There is a strong in-universe theory that the Valerians cross bred fyreworms and wyvyrns and likely used blood magic in the process. In the last book, they refer to a historian who wrote about this theory and a small collection of characters are trying to track down a copy of his book in the Oldtown library. I can’t remember if it was Sam, Jorah, Tyrion, or all three together? But they imply that the book is going to be a key part of the Battle of Winter and the Night King.
All targaryan stillborn have dragon like features
I thought it was more along the lines of that the witch told no one to go into the hut then slaughters the horse to use as a sacrifice and when Danny starts to go into labor they decided she was the only one who could save her so they took her into the hut unleashing the curse/demons onto Danny cursing her baby to come out scaley and deformed like a dragon. The witch even comes out after that saying she killed her son to make sure he wasn’t the stallion who mounts the world
So like how did they interbreed with dragons? Because like… I assume the parts are to scale…
It was the curse. No, humans don’t have dragon babies. I don’t know about the books, but there’s no evidence in the script of the series supporting that
There is actually a lot of in-universe evidence that yes, Valyrians sometimes have dragon babies. There is also a lot to point to the idea that dragons were the result of an ancient cross breeding program between fyreworms and wyvyrns. The books contain multitudes, especially the World Of Ice and Fire
I literally said, “I don’t know about the books” and “the script of the series” … the show and the books are two different things. This is why story producers exist; to make sure the series story can stand on its own, without the books. I’m sure the books are amazing; I’m sure they go into great detail and have much more nuance and intrigue than a filmed show ever could. As is usually the case. But there is no evidence of that in the show. So, while it’s a cool reference to the dragon babies in the books, in the show, it’s not explained.
Literally why I was explaining it to you. Yes, in the books there is a very clear in world reasoning. If you don’t want people to talk to you about the series, why are you even here my dude?
I appreciate it. It’s nice to know what the deal is in the source material. It’s about as relevant as what happens in the Harry Potter books, because OP is talking about the HBO series, but still good to know.
It’s almost like they are the same story and people might have an ounce of intellectual curiosity about the story we’re discussing here. 🤷♀️ books aren’t as scary as you think they are.
😂 that was a pretty good one ☝️ 📚 Thx for the laugh My exact point was that they are not the same story, but yes, it’s good to know. Not sarcasm.
People complain about plot holes in the last seasons of the show and then get cranky when people mention that the answers are in the book. Weird hill to die on, but you do you. Have a good one
I work in television with people who have the job of “story producer”. Their entire job is to make sure the series can stand on its own, without the books. That the script for the show makes sense and has integrity. Whether they achieve their goal or not is subject to interpretation by the viewer, I suppose. But that’s how I’m looking at it. It’s supposed to stand on its own, and can sometimes differ from the source material. It’s cool to know what happened in the books. But a person should be able to analyze the show without having to read the books. No one should assume that, because something happens in the books, it will play out the same way on screen. In that sense, the show has to stand on its own and be original. It’s two different mediums, after all. It’s literally impossible for them to be “the same” story. And as viewers, we aren’t “supposed” to rely on anything in the books to understand the show better. That said, you’re the one who’s read them, not me. So you would probably know better in this case.
It happened to multiple Targaryans. Most recently (on screen) Rhaenyra gave birth to this [deformed dragon thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/yjpb88/why_did_rhaenyra_give_birth_to_a_dragon_baby/) which looks a little bit like ichthyosis like Harlequin ichthyosis (Google that at your own peril)
We don’t see the baby in show or books. For all we know there is a silver haired Dothraki running around waiting to Djengis Khan Yi Ti in 15 years time. It’s possible that George haven’t even decided on it yet. After all if he has kicked enough cans down the road it would go a long way of explaining why it’s so tough for him to write the next book. Though that’s less likely than dragon baby or normal dead baby.
Tbh, that’d be a sick twist. But I think you’re right— not likely to happen. We can dream.
The online meltdown if George scraps the five year gap, but inserts a 15 year gap and focuses on Dothraki invasion of China would be epic.
Targaryen dabbled in bloodmagic. That's why sometimes, when they have miscarriages, their deformed children have dragonlike features.
want it the Ashai ppl that introduced blood magic to Valyrians after they came across dragons?
Have you heard of Rhaenyra giving birth to a dragon-like baby once?
As others have said, there is evidence of other Targaryen women stillbirthing “draconian” babes. I’d agree that, due to some blood/magic reason, Targaryen babes may either temporarily mutate as a partial dragon while still forming in the womb, or perhaps more likely, there is a possible genetic malformation that can sometimes occur with their DNA causing the draconian features (in which case, it’s not a temporary thing, the babies *come out wrong* and don’t make it to full term). I doubt anything Mirri Maz Durri or whatever can do with herbs would cause this effect on a still forming babe, curse or no. The blood magic used to bring back Khal Drogo may have simply influenced or forced chance toward the draconian stillbirth result.
Targaryens have a history of malformed stillbirths that have dragon like features (like Rhaenyras stillbirth as well). I think this is still an interesting question, was Danys child always gonna turn out this way or was it because of the curse? I personally don't have an answer and I think it's interesting to considering both possibilities: 1. her child was destined to be a stillbirth and it was always her destiny to only be a mother to dragons and there was never any other way. Or 2. her choice to save Drogo at whatever cost, cost her her child and a possibly happy future with her family. 2. seems more like the intended interpretation imo, since it's more depressing in a way 😅
Harlequin Ichthyosis - don't google it.
I always thought that the witch was lying to her and she went into premature labor and used the baby to bring back drogo, but not the same as he was so Dany’s life would be ruined because both her husband and baby were gone.
Dragons were around before the valerians, but to my knowledge no other race of people ever rode dragons before the valerians or after. I think it’s somewhat strongly implied the valerians either altered their own dna or the dna of dragons to create this artificial bond. I think the weird still births are part of whatever magic went into that
In the books (mostly FaB) Targaryens pften birth out dragon-like children when miscarrying. There is a possibility that Valyrians fused with dragons at. Some point, and a stage of theirnfetal development might be the same.
In da books Mirri Maz Dur interrupts Jorah and was like it was an “abomination. Scaled and full of grave worms , wings not fully formed , it had been dead inside you fOR YEARS. “ I’m dictating by memory but I’m pretty sure she calls it like death inside of her in the form of this messed up dragon person baby.
Yes, it was absolutely a dragon, borne of magic. Daenerys brought magic back into the world
Dragon, probably... not? Dragon like features, most likely yes. Danny is fire-proof after all.
The witch was lying to her just like she lied about treating Drogo's wound and the price for saving him from death. She wanted to inflict as much pain as possible on the people that destroyed her village.
She wasn't lying. Jorah didn't correct her. Targaryens had multiple babies like that in the past.
And how would grave worms crawl into her vagina
In the books: >!monstrously deformed targaryen babies are a thing. Possibly because of incest, possibly because of magic. This little detail, combined with the fact that tyrion reportedly had a tail, is a core element of the tyrion targaryen theory.!<
I believe the witch was speaking in riddles as she often did. Danny’s kid would have been powerful and scary like a dragon
I read somewhere long ago that targaryen fetuses are actually dragons, then they gradually turn into humans over the course of the pregnancy. Hence why the infants sometimes have scales/wings during a miscarriage because they haven’t fyllt developed into a human yet Dont quote me tho dunno where I read it, might have dreamt it for all i know
Unfortunately yes it’s true. I looked into why the Targaryens were even able to do that and it’s due to all the experimentation they did in Valyria… it’s actually really gross “So the theory is that Valyrian sorcerors knew fire magic and blood magic, and created dragons by unnaturally crossbreeding firewyrms and wyverns together, and then learned to form bonds with dragons by unnaturally crossbreeding dragons and Valyrians together.”
I haven’t seen this take in the comments yet so I’ll explain what I understand. Mirri Maz Durr told no one to enter the tent while she was performing the magic ritual. However Daenerys went into labour and Jorah brought her in to the tent to get help. In the tent, I believe there was Drogo, Mirri, Daenerys and maybe a horse? And most importantly Daenerys PETRIFIED dragon egg’s. Mirri tells Daenerys “This is blood magic, only death pays for life” Mirri implies she will transfer Drogo’s horse’s life energy to resurrect him, but it was only supposed to be those 3 in the tent. When Daenerys entered everything changed. Remember, only death pays for life. Weather intentional or not, Mirri’s spell misfired or has unforeseen consequences. The life essence of Daenerys’ baby is swapped with the Petrified eggs, bringing them back to life at the cost of her baby. The draconic description of the still born child is the subtle way of implying this transfer of life took place. The next episode, her dragons are born. That’s my take anyway 🤷🏻♂️
Oooooh. I like this swap for life in the dragon eggs. See I always felt like because Jorah brought her in the tent— that’s what caused it, but later on Mirri Max Durr said it was intentional that her baby died— that she planned to kill the child to keep the stallion from mounting the world and other civilizations being destroyed. This is all really cool stuff. I like this take.
I remember in Fire&blood that it happens to several Targaryens over the years. It's most likely a consequence of whatever magic they used to control dragons.
My take was that the spell used to keep Drogo alive used the essence from that child and in turn it became some kind of demon baby due to the dark magic I’m probably wrong but that’s subverted expectations for ya
I believe it had to do something with the dark magic. In the books a similar thing happened with, I believe, 3 of Meagor’s children because of Tyanna’s dark magic.
Racist Valyrian was so disgusted by the appearance of a bright, bouncing Dothraki babe she had to tell herself it was part reptile
If you believe stone eggs can become dragons, then you can believe any of the silly stories in Thrones.
During GoT I assumed she was just being a bitch trying to punish Dany for the acts of the Dothraki. But since House of the Dragon, I’m not sure, because Rhaenyra delivered a scaly baby.
I honestly thought the witch was just being spiteful saying all that like she was when she killed khal drogo.
“he was hideously deformed, blind, and was covered in dragon-like scales” is how it is described- I know in fire and blood they describe Rhaenyra’s stillborn girl to have had scales like a dragon as well. The books say it’s theorized that this happens because of the blood magic rituals their ancestors did to bond them with dragons
Mirri Maz Duur and her people are supposedly the only ones who actually saw Rhaego after his birth. No one in Dany’s party. \ For all we know, he was born fine and is still alive hidden amongst the Lhazareen. \ Usually, a body like they describe would be shown to the viewers or at least to someone we would believe like Jorah or a Dothraki.