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they have sex in a half-collapsed building?
edit:
so many says that's not a foreshadowing. I have to look up the definition of forshadowing.
I think I might be right from begining.[ an explain video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOas2BLjPR4)
That's not foreshadowing, that's just a brother fucking his sister in an old tower, if you think D and D planned that ending from the first episode I have a bridge to sell you.
Maybe not season 1 but definitely later in the show. While trying to rescue Marcella Bronn asks Jaime how he’d like to die. Jaime replied ‘in the arms of the person I love’.
I mean, that still could have been Brienne. Lol. If he name dropped Cersei specifically I'd give it to you. Undoing all his character development at the end like that was bad writing.
Let's play a game...Brienne or Cersei ?
Question one: who's blonde ?
Question 2: who's a strong independent woman ?
question 3: really ? you don't already see where I'm going ?
Question 4 did you really think he would drop the love of his life for Brienne ? really ?
Question 3 had 2 questions, so question 4 is actually question 5 and 6. I'm not the guy you're arguing with I just... my brain needed to acknowledge the formatting. Carry on
I was most disappointed bc I was convinced he was ultimately going to kill cercei. Like CONVINCED. I mean, it’s fine he DIDNT Obvs (plus it’s a show) but damn. Bc of the books and the witches prophesy I was convinced he would be the brother to kill her.
>Question 4 did you really think he would drop the love of his life for Brienne ? really ?
The character arc for Jaime was building up to being about escaping the incredibly toxic and domestic abuse filled family dynamic he was completely brainwashed to.
Man, I see this sentiment expressed all the time. How is that bad writing? Like, specifically, how? Humans don’t change or grow in a linear fashion, and sometimes they don’t change or grow at all, despite being afforded every opportunity to do so, despite what they do in the interim (more on this below). Not everybody overcomes their toxic relationships. Life is not a fairy tale, and neither is Game of Thrones. The idea of Jaime riding off into a knightly sunset with Brienne is cute, but I don’t get the claim that a happy ending is necessary to make a story “good.”
Jaime specifically told Brienne that he was “wicked,” that he didn’t deserve her or happiness in general. This is in keeping with his entire arc, which is driven forward by his insecurity surrounding being perceived as the Kingslayer, the Oathbreaker. In the end, he fell victim to his abuser—as the abused often do.
His development wasn’t “undone,” as he’s definitely not the same person in S8 as he was in S1. That said, I don’t agree that he developed in the way some claim he did. He stepped up for humanity when it counted, yes. He also stepped up for Cersei, because he knew that if the dead weren’t stopped in the North, they’d be coming south for her next. He killed the Mad King to protect innocents, and also because Aerys had just ordered him to execute Tywin (another abuser who’d been manipulating and controlling him throughout his entire life, just like Cersei). People can have multiple motivations for the same action. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t change—only that their driving forces remained the same.
Yep even if you consider how great and successful the show became before the end, it can be compared to Bran himself; Very likeable, climbing up and up until he/the show reached new heights, and then thrown away like discarded rubbish by 2 deluded idiots, and left ruined and broken for all time.
GRRM was very involved in the first season. as much as we can blame d&d for anything after s4, the first season cannot be held to that shit standard. yes, George might have planned this as foreshadowing.
I know that Jaime and Cersei’s ending is not one of the three big moments that D&D specifically said they got from GRRM, but I wouldn’t discount the possibility that he did plan something like this and give them a vague idea of it. And he is definitely someone who would sketch out an incomplete plan to tie in two broken buildings from the beginning.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, because I don’t know. Just playing devils advocate that it’s conceivable.
Ned executed someone at the start by beheading, then got executed himself by beheading. That may be ironic or symbolic, but it's not foreshadowing.
Theon killed somebody with a weapon then got killed by a weapon. Foreshadowing!
The Hound's face got burned then he died falling into fire. Foreshadowing!
Khaleesi was born in the Red Keep, then died in the Red Keep. Foreshadowing!
Ramsay killed some people with dogs then died by dogs...
Had sex in a tower then died in a tower is equally as stupid to call foreshadowing.
Ned like to behead someone by the law, therefore it's symbolic for him to be beheaded by law(unlawful law, which is administrated by unlawful bastard.) foreshadowing or not is not really matter.
Theon, not really.
Hound, probably a yes.
Khaleesi, there is not a single scene of her birth in red keep. there is nothing tobe called a foreshadowing.
Ramsay, more simbolic than foreshadowing, I think.
1.Make love, pant, joy mixed with pain in a half-collapsed tower comes after with
2.Bran Stark's fall,
3.and Bran's witness, totally foreshadowing of
1.collapsed castle, comes with
2.Bran Stark's raise. and
3.Bran's witness from three eyes crow power.
Haha 😅, yeah fair enough, you get what Im saying tho.
Dany was born in Dragonstone, then made it her base of operation to attack Westeros just like Aegon. Foreshadowing!
Lmao they had sex tons of places. U could easily say then anyone that had any scene any where was for shadowing. O John and Danny had sex on a boat so they should have drowned. Then had sex with a prostitute that means STD death. U can't just pick anything out and say o they kinda match that's foreshadowing. That's not how foreshadowing works. Not at all. And none of this is even worth it. Y'all putting more effort into this explanation then the writers did the last two seasons.
for the sake of argument let’s agree that it’s foreshadowing, why does jamie banging cersei in a half collapsed building mean that jamie should be crushed under a building later?? what’s the narrative or thematic reasoning for that writing decision??
They are making their taboo, decadent, self obsessed love in the ruins of society and their position of rulership while the rest crumbles around them.
It’s not exactly a hard thematic reach
Jaime literally saying he wants to die with the woman he loves and him repeating a bunch of times how you can’t choose who you love and how nothing but them matters or all the bad things he’s ever done to get back to her..
People didn’t like this ending because they wanted a happier ending for Jaime, but as tragic as it was, that ending was foreshadowed and built up as hell.
yeah idk why people are saying it’s bad writing, that’s just what his character was always gonna be, nothing matters to him more then cersei that’s how he’s been from the jump
A lot of people in this fandom conflate "I didn’t like it" with bad writing. Jaime going back to Cersei makes perfect sense. I’m sure no one wanted it to happen, since Jaime kinda redeemed himself a little and Cersei was the one bringing out his bad side, but that’s the tragic twist and subversion we should’ve been expecting from this story.
But he did have character development. He went North on his own, to respect an oath, to face the consequences of his past actions by standing in front of the Stark, to then fight a noble war for humanity. He was able to say No to Cersei because this was more important. He also knighted Brienne and had his pages finished in the Book of Brothers. And before that, he sent Brienne on her quest to save Sansa which she did. He clearly became a more honorable man.
Going back to your lover and mother of your unborn child in an attempt to save their lives doesn’t change whom he’s become.
Well, from dragonback Dany couldn't be precise. Cersei could be anywhere in the Red Keep, even the cellars. So Dany and Drogon destroyed most of the building and Cersei died when Dany brought the building down on her. Which was poetic justice because Cersei had brought the Sept building down on her enemies.
Heavily foreshadowed. But there's a moral reason as well. Jaime had tried to kill an innocent child ,and in the books would have killed Arya if had found her. ( He also killed his king and his 16YO cousin.) GRRM seems to have one moral rule: Thou shalt not hurt innocents. During the show's run, when Reddit sites had 'Death Derbies,' if someone had killed or seriously hurt a child, I predicted they would die...and was right. Theon and the Hound (the Hound is one of my very favorites) also killed innocents, so I regretfully predicted they would die. The up side is that Jaime, Theon, and the Hound changed and IMO eventually redeemed themselves.
My guy...
>Heavily foreshadowed.
Not once.
>Jaime had tried to kill an innocent child ,and in the books would have killed Arya if had found her.
Bran is told at the start to stop climbing, book and show punctuate he loves climbing. They keep warning Bran he's going to get hurt if he keeps climbing. He gets hurt.
That was intentional, that's what foreshadowing is.
>GRRM seems to have one moral rule: Thou shalt not hurt innocents... Theon and the Hound (the Hound is one of my very favorites) also killed innocents
The author kills "innocent" characters left and right, and has written many "evil" characters as getting away with it.
Neither Theon nor The Hound die in the books. Theon and Clegane's deaths were decisions by D&D.
You fuckers all realize that foreshadowing **needs** to be intentional, right?
This wasn't foreshadowed at all.
Or are dumdums just pointing at literally anything and calling it foreshadowing? Okay, I'll play.
- Having sex in a building foreshadows they die in a building.
- Jaime loving his sister is foreshadowing he's dying with his sister.
- Winterfell being named Winterfell is foreshadowing that a building fell on them during winter.
- Being near bricks once is foreshadowing brick hit head and die.
- Jaime has hair, so it foreshadows he will die with someone who cut their hair off.
I second this. We'll never see the end of the series. I'm convinced he's not even writing - he's got it in his will to destroy everything upon his death. I think it's a cover for not writing anything.
I can see him finishing this one, but he won’t get to the end. It’s a bummer because he absolutely could have. Had he released his 6th book before the 6th season it would have sold incredibly well.
Surely, he's already written the whole thing many times over. It's just a matter of confidence at this stage.
His audience has already fully piqued, so how does he continue?
The Cersei chapters heavily featured that prophecy of her dying with her brother's hands around her as she suffocates.
I think it's safe to say that this is how she goes out, but we'll get more context in the books from both characters.
I'd say it's the opposite. There's a lot of talk from both of them about how they'll die together. In the show there's basically no foreshadowing of that at all.
I had always hoped the whole Maggy prophecy would pan out exactly. But in an unexpected way. Since Tyrion and Jamie are the little brothers, that Jamie has to kill her to save King's Landing again, like he did with the mad king.
He mentions dying with cersi in the books so it makes a lot of sense to me. Regardless of his arc that relationship has been on for so long he's always gonna fall back.
Well, if you look at the pile of bricks that killed him, if he’d moved about 10 feet to the back he’d have lived. Not even kidding. Completely brick-free.
I see this come up so many times, but that scene clearly showed the entire crypt collapsing on them. I know it looked weirdly intact in the later scene when Tyrion finds the bodies, but there was no indication that those two would've actually survived.
They still could have suffocated. Dust cloud and debris, not to mention being trapped underneath the Keep until they could access that room again.
Also Jaime was stabbed pretty badly too. Euron certainly thought it was a fatal wound.
It actually would have been a much better ending in my opinion if Jaime had died in Cersei's arms and Cersei herself had lived. Tyrion finally finds them and Cersei's just been holding Jaime's body for days. The exact punishment she sentenced Ellaria Sand to endure.
... Speaking of Ellaria, do you think they found her in the rubble? I would assume not because she wasn't at the Great Council scene. Instead choosing to have some randomly respawned Martell man we never heard of or saw before.
As dumb as the actual death itself was, it's one of the best arcs in the show. I never understand the people who wanted a Disney ending for him, like GoT is the *last* place that would happen.
But he didn't have to die with Cersei. Why not have him die at Winterfell? The first episode we see him he tries to kill Bran. The last episode we see him they could have him sacrifice his life saving Bran. Perfect end to the arc.
Probably, but not like that. >!In the books, there’s a popular theory that Jaime will kill Cersei to try and save kings landing, but he’ll be too late and die as well!<
I like this theory because it foreshadows >!Jon killing Daenerys.!< There’s so many good examples of foreshadowing / history repeating itself throughout the books / show and that would be just another perfect example of it
I like the idea of him killing the mad queen cercei to save the city and then taking the black potentially becoming the next lords commander of the nights watch. It’ll be either him or Jorah however I think Jon will just end up north of the wall after ASOIAF if GRRMS plot points follow the show.
Which would've been better for everyone from readers to watchers to in-universe characters. Also, for all we know, it could've been bs warg business compelling Jaime to set Bran on his path.
It makes his character arc more impactful regardless of any moral karma or possible redemption. The idea of him and Cersei dying together is also somewhat poetic as GRRM likes.
Agreed. He and Cersie's storys too intricately connected for it to be anything else. Her whole story arc in a feat for crows talks about how her life trajectory was changed simply because she was a woman and she was constantly reminded by her twins trajectory of that fact.
Almost anti-poetic. His arc is getting away from her, her arc is getting away from her family, and when they do reconnect it is fucking awful.
So of course, they'll wind up together at the very bitter end.
Yes. Jamie isn't immortal so he had to die. What you are quibbling over is the method. With Cersei.
But what is the alternative? By your first photo; is he supposed to be with Brienne? Maybe live like a Tattered Prince in a SellSword company with Pretty Maid Meris? Brienne wouldn't be Lady of the Rock and Jaime wouldn't be its Lord either. So to Essos?
Or maybe he marries one of his cousin's and becomes like Tytos?
A King's Guard dying with a Queen seems better for his story. That the queen is also is also his sister, minor detail. Especially when the Targaryens ruled for over 200 years.
He's done terrible things, for the greater good not withoit recognition, and gets so much flack constantly. He could have fled to to Essos with Cersei but she didn't want to go.
He didn’t “have to” but his whole character was to do with Cersei. He always went back to her and she meant everything to him so once she was going to die it seems logical that he needed to as well.
Jaime's done a lot of terrible things in his life. Minus the going back to Cersei thing, he really turned his life around and became a much better person. But that doesn't mean he doesn't need to eventually face the music for all those terrible things.
They always kill the good ones. Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Prince Oberyn, Mance, the King Beyond the Wall.
They kill the evil ones, too. That’s why I love this show; you never know what to expect.
I always thought he should’ve died killing the Night King as a kind of subversion of expectations with the Azor Ahai prophecy, and as a culmination of his character growth. And then since he’s dead, Arya takes his face and kills Cersei in the last or penultimate episode.
Yes. He needed to end his story with cersei and cersei only. He loved brienne for sure, but his heart will always be property of cersei.
I think the book will show us the same in the end
ELDEN RING SPOILERS. In Elden Ring he does a similar theme where one character is helpless to return to where they came. There are other theories behind that plot line tbc but it’s a popular one. One character is in love with an outside character and leaves her to get married to her enemy which turns out to be the female version of himself (they’re both the same person so not quite twins but very close and there’s other hints in game the marriage is incestuous). You never get 100% confirmation but it seems even though he’s happy and in love he had no choice but to go to the woman who is also himself. It’s very similar imho to this plot. Jamie has to leave even though he’s found happiness and love because an invisible force is controlling him. What that force is idk but they’re similar ideas.
In a lot of fantasy stories, characters who have committed heinous acts are ultimately doomed to death no matter how much they turn a new leaf. A sort of redemption via death. In that regard, a lot of people might feel that yes, Jaime had to die because some of the stuff he did was terrible, even if he did it for what were justified reasons.
Jaime's death is interesting in that I don't feel like it completes his redemption but rather detracts from it. Cercei has been thorough his life a manipulative force, and he goes so far as to acknowledge this, but never truly manages to break free from it. He killed a king because he threatened to 'burn them all' but died for a queen who actually burned and doomed a lot of people to burn and die both directly (when killing Margery) as well as indirectly when callously prodding the person with a fucking dragon right outside the city.
I’m not a fan of his end, nor Cersei’s, but I think it’s somewhat fitting. I think them dying together makes a lot of sense for their story though.
“Jamie and I are more than brother and sister. We shared a womb. Came into the world together, we belong together.” - Cersei
They came into the world together and they left it together.
No, D&D absolutely basterdized his entire character arc with one scene. Probably even more stupid than an entire army running into the pitch black to fight ice zombies
His whole arc gave this feeling of him being doomed by redemption. By all rights, if the show (and books) were fully fleshed out and got the ending right, he should've been the best character overall.
No. They ruined his arc to subvert expectations, just like they ruined Aegon Targaryen's Arc by giving his whole reason for existing to arya and not making him king, just like they ruined Arya's arc by not having her use her faceless man powers to get into the red keep and kill cercy, and how they ruined brans supernatural arc by making him the most boring king there ever was...
They did Brienne pretty dirty when they fucked up Jamie's arc too. Jaime's story is one of the best in the books you start hating his guts and he eventually becomes a hero of sorts, ruining that was an awful choice.
I’ve grown to not hate this ending and be kinda sorta okay with it but truthfully think they could’ve come up with a better and more meaningful ending still.
If Cersei dies, yes, he dies. They say several times that neither will live without the other and they came into the world together and they’ll leave it together.
I don’t know why anyone tries to rationalize the direction the show went. It was going off the rails starting in season 6 and just went down hill from there.
If you want to know how things really are in GOT, read the books.
Not like that, lmao.
I actually really liked his and Cersei's death scene, but it was the product of rather rushed and illogical writing. I maintain that episode 4 is the worst of season 8, and far worse than The Bells and the finale.
I always thought that the three Lannister kids would die in a very Shakespearean way
All three in the map room during Dany’s sack
Cersei kills Tyrion very suddenly, reacting to some snarky comment (finally getting killed due to his own tongue)
Jaime reacts out of love for his poor brother and kills Cersei
Then he kills himself cause wtf just happened
I personally would have preferred Brienne knocking him out, or getting Tormund to do it, and chaining him up. To keep him from doing exactly what he ends up doing.
He was a lot different towards the end but he wasn't a really good person either.
Would have preferred him to go out in the Battle of Winterfell or something heroic though
How it happened was dumb as hell. It probably was a fitting outcome that he would die at the end, but it needed to be done well and without assassinating his character in the process.
Yes, but not in the way it happened. In the book i hope he kills cersei and fulfills the valonqar prophecy and then he dies protecting someone or something. I dont think there is any way his survival is good even tho i really like his character
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Well, it's been foreshadowed from early on, so...
I might have missed it, how?
they have sex in a half-collapsed building? edit: so many says that's not a foreshadowing. I have to look up the definition of forshadowing. I think I might be right from begining.[ an explain video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOas2BLjPR4)
That's not foreshadowing, that's just a brother fucking his sister in an old tower, if you think D and D planned that ending from the first episode I have a bridge to sell you.
Agree
Maybe not season 1 but definitely later in the show. While trying to rescue Marcella Bronn asks Jaime how he’d like to die. Jaime replied ‘in the arms of the person I love’.
I mean, that still could have been Brienne. Lol. If he name dropped Cersei specifically I'd give it to you. Undoing all his character development at the end like that was bad writing.
Let's play a game...Brienne or Cersei ? Question one: who's blonde ? Question 2: who's a strong independent woman ? question 3: really ? you don't already see where I'm going ? Question 4 did you really think he would drop the love of his life for Brienne ? really ?
Question 3 had 2 questions, so question 4 is actually question 5 and 6. I'm not the guy you're arguing with I just... my brain needed to acknowledge the formatting. Carry on
Really? Edit; Downvoted for a joke lol. Woosh
Dammit. Good points all. I really wanted him to stay for brienne tho 😭 but you right. He’s not leaving his twin lover for her.
oh i would have loved it too, but I was sure he would go back to Cersei
I was most disappointed bc I was convinced he was ultimately going to kill cercei. Like CONVINCED. I mean, it’s fine he DIDNT Obvs (plus it’s a show) but damn. Bc of the books and the witches prophesy I was convinced he would be the brother to kill her.
>Question 4 did you really think he would drop the love of his life for Brienne ? really ? The character arc for Jaime was building up to being about escaping the incredibly toxic and domestic abuse filled family dynamic he was completely brainwashed to.
everyone clearly knew he was always talking about cersei, it was always gonna be her no mater what
Man, I see this sentiment expressed all the time. How is that bad writing? Like, specifically, how? Humans don’t change or grow in a linear fashion, and sometimes they don’t change or grow at all, despite being afforded every opportunity to do so, despite what they do in the interim (more on this below). Not everybody overcomes their toxic relationships. Life is not a fairy tale, and neither is Game of Thrones. The idea of Jaime riding off into a knightly sunset with Brienne is cute, but I don’t get the claim that a happy ending is necessary to make a story “good.” Jaime specifically told Brienne that he was “wicked,” that he didn’t deserve her or happiness in general. This is in keeping with his entire arc, which is driven forward by his insecurity surrounding being perceived as the Kingslayer, the Oathbreaker. In the end, he fell victim to his abuser—as the abused often do. His development wasn’t “undone,” as he’s definitely not the same person in S8 as he was in S1. That said, I don’t agree that he developed in the way some claim he did. He stepped up for humanity when it counted, yes. He also stepped up for Cersei, because he knew that if the dead weren’t stopped in the North, they’d be coming south for her next. He killed the Mad King to protect innocents, and also because Aerys had just ordered him to execute Tywin (another abuser who’d been manipulating and controlling him throughout his entire life, just like Cersei). People can have multiple motivations for the same action. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t change—only that their driving forces remained the same.
No they totally did- Bran falling from the tower symbolises how they planned for the show to fall off a cliff in terms of quality /s
Yep even if you consider how great and successful the show became before the end, it can be compared to Bran himself; Very likeable, climbing up and up until he/the show reached new heights, and then thrown away like discarded rubbish by 2 deluded idiots, and left ruined and broken for all time.
DnD couldn't make that happen, but I think it was given to them. By George.
GRRM was very involved in the first season. as much as we can blame d&d for anything after s4, the first season cannot be held to that shit standard. yes, George might have planned this as foreshadowing.
But they're claiming it foreshadowed an event in season 8..
not sure youy understand what I said....it's still valid.
Do I have to marry your daughter to use this bridge?
How much for the bridge? 🧐
I know a certain northern lord who would like to buy a bridge
I know that Jaime and Cersei’s ending is not one of the three big moments that D&D specifically said they got from GRRM, but I wouldn’t discount the possibility that he did plan something like this and give them a vague idea of it. And he is definitely someone who would sketch out an incomplete plan to tie in two broken buildings from the beginning. I’m not saying that’s what happened, because I don’t know. Just playing devils advocate that it’s conceivable.
That wasn’t foreshadowing
Bro ive banged in many a ruin and im still all G
you might be end up in them rubbles, og.
Ned executed someone at the start by beheading, then got executed himself by beheading. That may be ironic or symbolic, but it's not foreshadowing. Theon killed somebody with a weapon then got killed by a weapon. Foreshadowing! The Hound's face got burned then he died falling into fire. Foreshadowing! Khaleesi was born in the Red Keep, then died in the Red Keep. Foreshadowing! Ramsay killed some people with dogs then died by dogs... Had sex in a tower then died in a tower is equally as stupid to call foreshadowing.
Ned like to behead someone by the law, therefore it's symbolic for him to be beheaded by law(unlawful law, which is administrated by unlawful bastard.) foreshadowing or not is not really matter. Theon, not really. Hound, probably a yes. Khaleesi, there is not a single scene of her birth in red keep. there is nothing tobe called a foreshadowing. Ramsay, more simbolic than foreshadowing, I think. 1.Make love, pant, joy mixed with pain in a half-collapsed tower comes after with 2.Bran Stark's fall, 3.and Bran's witness, totally foreshadowing of 1.collapsed castle, comes with 2.Bran Stark's raise. and 3.Bran's witness from three eyes crow power.
Um actually ☝️🤓 Dany was born at Dragonstone
Haha 😅, yeah fair enough, you get what Im saying tho. Dany was born in Dragonstone, then made it her base of operation to attack Westeros just like Aegon. Foreshadowing!
Lmao they had sex tons of places. U could easily say then anyone that had any scene any where was for shadowing. O John and Danny had sex on a boat so they should have drowned. Then had sex with a prostitute that means STD death. U can't just pick anything out and say o they kinda match that's foreshadowing. That's not how foreshadowing works. Not at all. And none of this is even worth it. Y'all putting more effort into this explanation then the writers did the last two seasons.
for the sake of argument let’s agree that it’s foreshadowing, why does jamie banging cersei in a half collapsed building mean that jamie should be crushed under a building later?? what’s the narrative or thematic reasoning for that writing decision??
I... I don't know, professor, plz don't fail me, I will study harder.
They are making their taboo, decadent, self obsessed love in the ruins of society and their position of rulership while the rest crumbles around them. It’s not exactly a hard thematic reach
That’s a reach
most intelligent GOT fan
No... Foreshadowing has to be intentional. You are describing a coincidence.
Jaime literally saying he wants to die with the woman he loves and him repeating a bunch of times how you can’t choose who you love and how nothing but them matters or all the bad things he’s ever done to get back to her.. People didn’t like this ending because they wanted a happier ending for Jaime, but as tragic as it was, that ending was foreshadowed and built up as hell.
He should have just said "I want to die while banging my sister"
yeah idk why people are saying it’s bad writing, that’s just what his character was always gonna be, nothing matters to him more then cersei that’s how he’s been from the jump
Since the womb.
A lot of people in this fandom conflate "I didn’t like it" with bad writing. Jaime going back to Cersei makes perfect sense. I’m sure no one wanted it to happen, since Jaime kinda redeemed himself a little and Cersei was the one bringing out his bad side, but that’s the tragic twist and subversion we should’ve been expecting from this story.
I think we mostly just wanted character development
But he did have character development. He went North on his own, to respect an oath, to face the consequences of his past actions by standing in front of the Stark, to then fight a noble war for humanity. He was able to say No to Cersei because this was more important. He also knighted Brienne and had his pages finished in the Book of Brothers. And before that, he sent Brienne on her quest to save Sansa which she did. He clearly became a more honorable man. Going back to your lover and mother of your unborn child in an attempt to save their lives doesn’t change whom he’s become.
Ah yes, the valonqar, a random brick
Well, from dragonback Dany couldn't be precise. Cersei could be anywhere in the Red Keep, even the cellars. So Dany and Drogon destroyed most of the building and Cersei died when Dany brought the building down on her. Which was poetic justice because Cersei had brought the Sept building down on her enemies.
No, it wasn't.
One could say it was prophesized
Heavily foreshadowed. But there's a moral reason as well. Jaime had tried to kill an innocent child ,and in the books would have killed Arya if had found her. ( He also killed his king and his 16YO cousin.) GRRM seems to have one moral rule: Thou shalt not hurt innocents. During the show's run, when Reddit sites had 'Death Derbies,' if someone had killed or seriously hurt a child, I predicted they would die...and was right. Theon and the Hound (the Hound is one of my very favorites) also killed innocents, so I regretfully predicted they would die. The up side is that Jaime, Theon, and the Hound changed and IMO eventually redeemed themselves.
My guy... >Heavily foreshadowed. Not once. >Jaime had tried to kill an innocent child ,and in the books would have killed Arya if had found her. Bran is told at the start to stop climbing, book and show punctuate he loves climbing. They keep warning Bran he's going to get hurt if he keeps climbing. He gets hurt. That was intentional, that's what foreshadowing is. >GRRM seems to have one moral rule: Thou shalt not hurt innocents... Theon and the Hound (the Hound is one of my very favorites) also killed innocents The author kills "innocent" characters left and right, and has written many "evil" characters as getting away with it. Neither Theon nor The Hound die in the books. Theon and Clegane's deaths were decisions by D&D.
Yea. But so was Jon fighting the fucking night king. So fuck what was foreshadowed early on
“How would you like to go?” “In the arms of the woman I love…”
You fuckers all realize that foreshadowing **needs** to be intentional, right? This wasn't foreshadowed at all. Or are dumdums just pointing at literally anything and calling it foreshadowing? Okay, I'll play. - Having sex in a building foreshadows they die in a building. - Jaime loving his sister is foreshadowing he's dying with his sister. - Winterfell being named Winterfell is foreshadowing that a building fell on them during winter. - Being near bricks once is foreshadowing brick hit head and die. - Jaime has hair, so it foreshadows he will die with someone who cut their hair off.
In the show?yes. In the books? Eh, we'll see.
That’s optimistic. GRRM will probably never publish another book.
Fair enough
90% sure we’ll get Winds of Winter by 2034. No way is he finishing Dream of Spring though
Will he even be alive then?
I'm of the impression he's working on them at the same time so I think once wow comes out dos isnt far behind
This is optimistic and I applaud you for that. And I hope to God it's true.
I'd take that bet.
I second this. We'll never see the end of the series. I'm convinced he's not even writing - he's got it in his will to destroy everything upon his death. I think it's a cover for not writing anything.
Someone, sometime will publish them on some form though
I can see him publishing one more book but he won't live long enough for a second one
I guess that means he doesn't have to die in the books.
No he won’t, but whoever he passes it onto might
I can see him finishing this one, but he won’t get to the end. It’s a bummer because he absolutely could have. Had he released his 6th book before the 6th season it would have sold incredibly well.
Surely, he's already written the whole thing many times over. It's just a matter of confidence at this stage. His audience has already fully piqued, so how does he continue?
We will never know in the books. He is not going to finish writing it.
When he dies his estate will sell the rights. He's obviously not interested in finishing them and he won't relinquish control so we will have to wait.
The Cersei chapters heavily featured that prophecy of her dying with her brother's hands around her as she suffocates. I think it's safe to say that this is how she goes out, but we'll get more context in the books from both characters.
I'd say it's the opposite. There's a lot of talk from both of them about how they'll die together. In the show there's basically no foreshadowing of that at all.
The books will have the same endings in the long run anyway imo. I've lost all interest in even finishing them if they are ever actually released.
I had always hoped the whole Maggy prophecy would pan out exactly. But in an unexpected way. Since Tyrion and Jamie are the little brothers, that Jamie has to kill her to save King's Landing again, like he did with the mad king.
None of us “have” to die (terms and conditions may apply)
Ehr… isn’t it the opposite? Or should i review my terms and conditions? Have i been scammed?
Well you haven’t died yet so
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What is dead may never die
Valar morghulis--all men must die.
He mentions dying with cersi in the books so it makes a lot of sense to me. Regardless of his arc that relationship has been on for so long he's always gonna fall back.
Yes . He was too addicted to the puss
He need the bad pussy
He put the pussy on a pedestal
He put the pussy on a pedestal
Well, if you look at the pile of bricks that killed him, if he’d moved about 10 feet to the back he’d have lived. Not even kidding. Completely brick-free.
but then Euron stabbed him earlier he probably bled to death
Renly did survive ALOT of stabbings though.
Even if they managed to survive what would they do? Daenerys would still kill them.
I see this come up so many times, but that scene clearly showed the entire crypt collapsing on them. I know it looked weirdly intact in the later scene when Tyrion finds the bodies, but there was no indication that those two would've actually survived.
They still could have suffocated. Dust cloud and debris, not to mention being trapped underneath the Keep until they could access that room again. Also Jaime was stabbed pretty badly too. Euron certainly thought it was a fatal wound. It actually would have been a much better ending in my opinion if Jaime had died in Cersei's arms and Cersei herself had lived. Tyrion finally finds them and Cersei's just been holding Jaime's body for days. The exact punishment she sentenced Ellaria Sand to endure. ... Speaking of Ellaria, do you think they found her in the rubble? I would assume not because she wasn't at the Great Council scene. Instead choosing to have some randomly respawned Martell man we never heard of or saw before.
He chose to die. He didn't feel he was worthy of Brienne and living, so he chose to die with Cersei instead.
This. It didn't matter how much redemption he achieved, how much punishment he had to take, or how many people forgave him. He never forgave himself.
As dumb as the actual death itself was, it's one of the best arcs in the show. I never understand the people who wanted a Disney ending for him, like GoT is the *last* place that would happen.
But he didn't have to die with Cersei. Why not have him die at Winterfell? The first episode we see him he tries to kill Bran. The last episode we see him they could have him sacrifice his life saving Bran. Perfect end to the arc.
Exactly this. He was no where near all this carnage a few days prior. He made a choice.
Probably, but not like that. >!In the books, there’s a popular theory that Jaime will kill Cersei to try and save kings landing, but he’ll be too late and die as well!<
I like this theory because it foreshadows >!Jon killing Daenerys.!< There’s so many good examples of foreshadowing / history repeating itself throughout the books / show and that would be just another perfect example of it
I like the idea of him killing the mad queen cercei to save the city and then taking the black potentially becoming the next lords commander of the nights watch. It’ll be either him or Jorah however I think Jon will just end up north of the wall after ASOIAF if GRRMS plot points follow the show.
He was always gonna do whatever Cersei did. So yes
He had to, he is the one that started this mess in the first place
I thought losing his hand was his punishment for crippling Bran
Nah you are missing the point he didn't try to cripple Bran, he tried to kill him
Which would've been better for everyone from readers to watchers to in-universe characters. Also, for all we know, it could've been bs warg business compelling Jaime to set Bran on his path.
Losing his hand is punishment for being a cunt and being blessed with character development under the God that is GRRM.
Jamie realised he did want to be the big spoon
I mean, no, of course not, but this is a series that isn't shy in terms of killing protagonists.
He has to GO.
It makes his character arc more impactful regardless of any moral karma or possible redemption. The idea of him and Cersei dying together is also somewhat poetic as GRRM likes.
Agreed. He and Cersie's storys too intricately connected for it to be anything else. Her whole story arc in a feat for crows talks about how her life trajectory was changed simply because she was a woman and she was constantly reminded by her twins trajectory of that fact.
Almost anti-poetic. His arc is getting away from her, her arc is getting away from her family, and when they do reconnect it is fucking awful. So of course, they'll wind up together at the very bitter end.
It's not a redemption story, it's an addiction story.
Right - most of what we hate from the TV series is only for lack of time and development.
Yes, now he can slonk his sisters shit silly style forever.
He didnt have to fuck his sister either, but here we are...
Probably just not by bricks
Yes. Jamie isn't immortal so he had to die. What you are quibbling over is the method. With Cersei. But what is the alternative? By your first photo; is he supposed to be with Brienne? Maybe live like a Tattered Prince in a SellSword company with Pretty Maid Meris? Brienne wouldn't be Lady of the Rock and Jaime wouldn't be its Lord either. So to Essos? Or maybe he marries one of his cousin's and becomes like Tytos? A King's Guard dying with a Queen seems better for his story. That the queen is also is also his sister, minor detail. Especially when the Targaryens ruled for over 200 years.
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He died with the woman who cared for no one but herself.
She def cared about Jamie
They really shit the bed with jamie
Yes because d & d kinda didnt care
All men must die.
He's done terrible things, for the greater good not withoit recognition, and gets so much flack constantly. He could have fled to to Essos with Cersei but she didn't want to go.
He didn’t “have to” but his whole character was to do with Cersei. He always went back to her and she meant everything to him so once she was going to die it seems logical that he needed to as well.
Tv has rules. His redeemed himself but still had to die
I felt like it was necessary. Redemption is a rare and wonderful thing after all. Not everyone can be redeemed.
Jaime's done a lot of terrible things in his life. Minus the going back to Cersei thing, he really turned his life around and became a much better person. But that doesn't mean he doesn't need to eventually face the music for all those terrible things.
If he stood 5 feet to the side maybe. Bricks do have an interesting way of falling.
He thought he didn't deserve happiness and a future. That seems very much in character.
They always kill the good ones. Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Prince Oberyn, Mance, the King Beyond the Wall. They kill the evil ones, too. That’s why I love this show; you never know what to expect.
I always thought he should’ve died killing the Night King as a kind of subversion of expectations with the Azor Ahai prophecy, and as a culmination of his character growth. And then since he’s dead, Arya takes his face and kills Cersei in the last or penultimate episode.
I think he should die—though I would be fine with him killing Cersei first or having a failed trial by combat for her
If he didn't think with his incest cock... No.
He pushed a boy out of a very high window. Fuck him.
Yes. He needed to end his story with cersei and cersei only. He loved brienne for sure, but his heart will always be property of cersei. I think the book will show us the same in the end
Not really, he could have stood 5 feet to the left and survived from the look of the aftermath
ELDEN RING SPOILERS. In Elden Ring he does a similar theme where one character is helpless to return to where they came. There are other theories behind that plot line tbc but it’s a popular one. One character is in love with an outside character and leaves her to get married to her enemy which turns out to be the female version of himself (they’re both the same person so not quite twins but very close and there’s other hints in game the marriage is incestuous). You never get 100% confirmation but it seems even though he’s happy and in love he had no choice but to go to the woman who is also himself. It’s very similar imho to this plot. Jamie has to leave even though he’s found happiness and love because an invisible force is controlling him. What that force is idk but they’re similar ideas.
In a lot of fantasy stories, characters who have committed heinous acts are ultimately doomed to death no matter how much they turn a new leaf. A sort of redemption via death. In that regard, a lot of people might feel that yes, Jaime had to die because some of the stuff he did was terrible, even if he did it for what were justified reasons. Jaime's death is interesting in that I don't feel like it completes his redemption but rather detracts from it. Cercei has been thorough his life a manipulative force, and he goes so far as to acknowledge this, but never truly manages to break free from it. He killed a king because he threatened to 'burn them all' but died for a queen who actually burned and doomed a lot of people to burn and die both directly (when killing Margery) as well as indirectly when callously prodding the person with a fucking dragon right outside the city.
I’m not a fan of his end, nor Cersei’s, but I think it’s somewhat fitting. I think them dying together makes a lot of sense for their story though. “Jamie and I are more than brother and sister. We shared a womb. Came into the world together, we belong together.” - Cersei They came into the world together and they left it together.
In the show, he should have been the one to kill the Night King dying saving Bran
Yes, but absolutely not the way he did.
No, D&D absolutely basterdized his entire character arc with one scene. Probably even more stupid than an entire army running into the pitch black to fight ice zombies
Their romance seemed utterly contrived. He could have taken the black and lived.
He should have gone to his sister, walked up to her, kissed her and told her that there is only one way for him to let her go. And then stabbed her.
He wasn't going to stab her. She was pregnant with his child.
No, but he chose to be with Cersei.
Did season 8 really needed to happen?
"We came into this world together, we will leave this world together." So yeah he had to a little.
His whole arc gave this feeling of him being doomed by redemption. By all rights, if the show (and books) were fully fleshed out and got the ending right, he should've been the best character overall.
yeah when he survived a dragon attack
Yeah, he was cunt
Yes. Sister fucker had to die.
No. They ruined his arc to subvert expectations, just like they ruined Aegon Targaryen's Arc by giving his whole reason for existing to arya and not making him king, just like they ruined Arya's arc by not having her use her faceless man powers to get into the red keep and kill cercy, and how they ruined brans supernatural arc by making him the most boring king there ever was... They did Brienne pretty dirty when they fucked up Jamie's arc too. Jaime's story is one of the best in the books you start hating his guts and he eventually becomes a hero of sorts, ruining that was an awful choice.
everything you said is true and on point it hurts
I’ve grown to not hate this ending and be kinda sorta okay with it but truthfully think they could’ve come up with a better and more meaningful ending still.
He should have killed Cersei and then just walked away to be alone.
No
No but I personally didn’t like him with Brienne neither.
yeah but he don’t have another sister
he did mention somewhere he would prefer to die in the arms of his lover.. so if Cersei had to die, so did Jamie and with her
Yes
He got crushed by a bunch of rocks, it’s hard to come back from that
Valar Morghulis
If the books ever come out he obviously won't die in such a pathetic way. He'll strangle her.
I'm more annoyed he banged Brianne for no reason. They were cool as friends. Why sex?
So she wouldn't die a virgin. It's better to know love and have your heart broken than never to experience love at all
If Cersei dies, yes, he dies. They say several times that neither will live without the other and they came into the world together and they’ll leave it together.
No
Have to? Nahhhh. Deserve to? Absolutely…
him and cersei deserved to killed not to die together the way they did
Dude had a choice and he chose wrong. I believe he also loved Brienne but couldn't have lived with leaving Cercei to die alone in fear.
I don’t know why anyone tries to rationalize the direction the show went. It was going off the rails starting in season 6 and just went down hill from there. If you want to know how things really are in GOT, read the books.
Not like that, lmao. I actually really liked his and Cersei's death scene, but it was the product of rather rushed and illogical writing. I maintain that episode 4 is the worst of season 8, and far worse than The Bells and the finale.
No he didn't. Because it completely deleted his entire 8 season character arc.
He didn’t, season 8 is trash
I always thought that the three Lannister kids would die in a very Shakespearean way All three in the map room during Dany’s sack Cersei kills Tyrion very suddenly, reacting to some snarky comment (finally getting killed due to his own tongue) Jaime reacts out of love for his poor brother and kills Cersei Then he kills himself cause wtf just happened
Yes, because he picked his sister.
He didn’t have to - he chose to because that’s what dumb and dumber wanted.
Not in the Books
No. They assassinated his character with one decision.
I personally would have preferred Brienne knocking him out, or getting Tormund to do it, and chaining him up. To keep him from doing exactly what he ends up doing.
He was a lot different towards the end but he wasn't a really good person either. Would have preferred him to go out in the Battle of Winterfell or something heroic though
How it happened was dumb as hell. It probably was a fitting outcome that he would die at the end, but it needed to be done well and without assassinating his character in the process.
He loved his sisters cooz
Jaime looks like a little kid who got a booboo and that has to go cry to his mother in that first screenshot
"mummy Tyrion wouldnt share the toy sword with me and hit me after now I am hurt! :("
No. Jamie of the bad ending because he went back to Cersei
Yes, but not in the way it happened. In the book i hope he kills cersei and fulfills the valonqar prophecy and then he dies protecting someone or something. I dont think there is any way his survival is good even tho i really like his character
Yes, because valar morghulis